Death to Life podcast
A podcast that tells the stories of people that used to be one way, and now are completely different, and the thing that happened in between was Jesus.
Death to Life podcast
#192: Ali's Journey Through Cultural Expectations, Identity, and Spiritual Awakening
Join us as we take a journey through Ali's transformative story—a tale of navigating cultural expectations, family dynamics, and the complexities of self-identity. Raised in a Vietnamese Catholic family, Ali struggled with a sense of belonging and control amidst financial hardships and parental divorce. Dance and film became her sanctuary, while the pressures of adolescence led her down a path marked by eating disorders and a search for identity in a rapidly changing world.
As we follow Ali's path through high school and beyond, we uncover the intricate layers of her experiences with relationships and gender identity. Dating apps, polyamory, and her exploration of non-binary identity offer a window into her quest for authenticity. With the backdrop of a supportive yet tumultuous family life, she shares how platforms like Tumblr and TikTok influenced her perspectives on feminism and spirituality.
We delve into her experiences with new age practices and a significant encounter with the gospel, leading to a life-changing embrace of divine love and redemption. Join us as we explore the powerful message of hope and forgiveness that Ali discovered, not only for herself but for anyone seeking clarity and liberation in a complex world. Experience the heartfelt reflections, the lessons on overcoming pride and perfectionism, and the transformative power of embracing one's true identity in Christ.
14:55 - Struggles With Identity and Control
21:26 - Exploring Identity and Relationships
27:23 - Exploring Identity and Influence
37:05 - Navigating High School Relationships and Identity
51:59 - Navigating Personal Growth and Relationships
1:04:05 - Navigating Gender Identity and Relationships
1:17:03 - Seeking Spiritual Guidance and Redemption
1:30:34 - Overcoming Pride and Striving for Perfection
1:40:25 - Embracing Freedom and Redemption
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The world doesn't think that the gospel can change your life, but we know that it can and that's why we want you to hear these stories, stories of transformation, stories of freedom, people getting free from sin and healed from sin because of Jesus. This is Death to Life.
Speaker 2:I knew that there was something deeply wrong, like I knew that I was lying about who I was. I knew that I was like not in touch with reality and I knew that, ultimately, like this wasn't good for me and this wasn't going to go anywhere and like this was, I just had this like deep sense of like doom and like that there was something deeply wrong with what I was doing, but I didn't know how to. I didn't know how to leave.
Speaker 1:Yo, what's up everybody. My name is Richard Young and welcome to the Death to Life podcast. Today's episode is with my sister, allie. I'd never met Allie before and then she came on to the Bible study probably a year ago and always adding beautiful things. And then, on internet church, she blew me away by receiving and just pouring into the community. And then I saw a little of her story on her Instagram and I said, yo, we need to hear this whole story. So this is the whole kit and caboodle. This is the whole story. It is wild. Wild, not for young ears, but praise God, from whom all blessings flow, who has loved Allie deeply and you're going to hear it in this episode. So that, all being said, buckle up. That, all being said, buckle up, strap in. This is your big boy. Love y'all, appreciate y'all. This is Allie, all right.
Speaker 1:So normally when I record a death to life episode, I have a little more background than I do now. Allie, I have never met you in person. We've happened upon each other on the internet quite a few times through Bible studies, but I don't know. Like your internet, your Instagram handle is vaguely Asian. I think that's amazing. I don't know what it means. I want to know more about it. I want to know more about you. Who are you, where are you from, where does your story start and what is vaguely Asian about you?
Speaker 2:So my name is Ali. I am from Austin area, texas. I grew up in the Austin area and vaguely Asian Wait, wait, there's something else in there but anyway, vaguely asian. It came from a snl skit, um, like okay, so I'm a quarter vietnamese, so I thought that was really funny. But they basically were making fun of the different black eyed peas characters or like I guess I don't know if you call them like band members or whatever, but there's the one character that, like no one really knows about and he always just has really long hair and he's a lot of long-haired dude yeah, he's just dressed in a very asian way and they like his character.
Speaker 2:They called him vaguely asian and I just like resonated with that, because no one ever really knows usually what ethnicity I am.
Speaker 1:So yeah, shout out to the, to the vietnamese guy in uhed Peas. So you're a quarter Vietnamese, yeah, and the rest of you is just white lady. Yes. So you were born in Texas.
Speaker 2:I was born outside of Chicago area. That's where both of my parents are from because they met in high school, where both of my parents are from because they they met in high school. Um, so pretty much all my extended family lives in the chicago area but, um my immediate family we all live down here because my dad moved down here for the army okay, so when you're thinking about your spiritual story or your story, where, where would you start us off?
Speaker 1:where? Where does the Allie story begin, when, in regards to just like who you thought you were?
Speaker 2:what you believed about yourself and God being in the picture at all.
Speaker 2:From a really young age I felt like I just had a lot of impressions of the spiritual world, since I was really little, just like with a lot of dreams, and I think to the outside it really looked like I was just daydreaming or just not paying attention A lot of the time. I was always called like a space cadet or you know I wasn't, I was not good at paying attention in school and stuff like that. But since I was little, like I would have like dreams and I now that I know God, I know that like I was sensing his presence and things like that. And I went to like a Lutheran preschool and I really remembered loving, going to the chapel and stuff like that, even though I didn't really understand what they were saying. But even when I was like going to, you know, catholic mass and stuff like that, because my family was Catholic, I had a feeling that there was something more than what I was experiencing. I guess even as a kid, so your family's Catholic?
Speaker 1:Yeah, what kind of Catholic? Is it Like mass every Sunday, or is it, like you know, kind of just holiday Catholic?
Speaker 2:It kind of depended on, like how my family was doing, I guess, like mostly holiday, um, but then some some years I would go to religious education and stuff like that. Like when I was like seven and eight I would go to religious education and stuff like that when I was like seven and eight I would go every week.
Speaker 1:But then when my family was doing really bad. We would just stop going. So what?
Speaker 2:do you mean by that doing really bad, like when we would have hardship financially, or if there was just a lot of other stuff going on? If my parents were fighting a lot, then we just wouldn't go.
Speaker 1:So who is God to Allie as just a little girl or growing up as she's in this family here?
Speaker 2:I wasn't sure, because I had this sense that God really loved me and I wanted to believe that a lot. But then when I wanted to believe that a lot and but then when I went to like Catholic mass and I didn't really understand what they were talking about most of the time obviously, because when you're a kid you just don't really get it but I just didn't really understand what they were talking about and I remember looking around and like thinking surely we can't all be praying to the same God? Hmm.
Speaker 2:And I don't really know what made me think that, but I was just like I knew that there was a personal relationship involved, but I knew that I didn't really know him and I felt kind of like this disconnect, where it was like we would get dressed up and we would go to church and then we would go home and everyone would just be really mean to each other. So it just seems like I felt like God wasn't interested in what happened in my house, or like I didn't know that I could go home and pray. I thought that I had to be in the church and pray. So I think I thought maybe like he was really powerful and big but not, but not wanting to be close.
Speaker 1:Not a personal God, but just like a ruler of the universe. How much was he involved in the universe? How much was?
Speaker 2:he involved in personal stuff about your life, did you think I didn't feel like he was involved at all in my day-to-day life? I felt like maybe he was setting things in motion or I don't know. I don't think I thought about him as a person much so what was the way to live forever or like?
Speaker 1:what did you think about afterlife? What was the key to living forever in your mind?
Speaker 2:that's a good question, because I don't think I. I think maybe I thought if I could do good or be good enough or be perfect in some way, then I, then I could be good enough. I don't think I was actually worried about it, which is, I guess, good, but I I didn't really have a theory about heaven or hell that much. I just felt like I felt more concerned with things that were going on in my life to where I was trying to make sense of it. So I didn't even really think about if I was going to go to hell or anything. I actually started thinking more about like the afterlife and stuff, when I, when I was in middle school, after my parents got divorced, and because I didn't have a theory at that point, I kind of just assumed that it was all just space at that point. So I think I hadn't developed a solid theory or idea at that point.
Speaker 2:I grew up with an older sister she's like six and a half years older than me and then my little brother. He was born when I was like eight and a half, so we're all really far apart in age and my dad is an optometrist and my mom did like various different jobs until they got divorced. But my parents just had a really volatile relationship and I had a lot of different strategies for like coping with that stuff, and so I spent a lot of time just like dealing with a lot of things by myself, basically. So my sister like my sister and I did not have a good relationship, so there was a lot of like bullying there, and so I really just like I loved my friends and then I didn't feel very supported at home, so I just did a lot of dreaming and I did a lot of dancing.
Speaker 2:So I grew up dancing, since I was like three years old, um, and so that was like a huge source of joy for me. Like I spent so much time like in class, um, learning, and I did like my favorite when I was younger was hip-hop and break dancing, um, so that was like my favorite. Uh, yeah, that's a little. Are you good at it?
Speaker 2:um, I love hip-hop. I don't do break like if I, if I tried it again, I could, but it's a that's a lot more muscles than I have right now, but I do love hip-hop though I think there's only one other vietnamese person that I've ever had on the podcast and he's a break dancer, so I don't understand.
Speaker 1:I think he does hip hop too, but he was a he could. He could break more than doing hip hop. But so what? At what age were you getting into dancing? Just middle school and high school, or?
Speaker 2:class, like it was. It was like a turning point for me. I still remember it, like looking at myself in the mirror and wearing my tap shoes and I was like this is amazing. Uh, so that's so sweet. I started with tap and then I did like. I did like gymnastics and ballet and then when I got older, I did like hip-hop and breakdancing and then eventually in high school, I was doing mainly just ballet contemporary and modern oh, wow so how much of your identity was tied up into dance, like, like.
Speaker 1:If you were to be like who am I in high school, like, what was it? What were? How would you divvy up your identity?
Speaker 2:oh my goodness, uh, yes, it was so much in dance my identity because I realized that whenever, uh, so you know, dance classes are really expensive, so, uh, whenever my family couldn't afford them, I just couldn't take them and then I would just have to like deal with like that gaping hole, you know, in my life, because it wasn't just the dance, it was also like all my friendships that I had at dance and stuff.
Speaker 2:So, um, yeah, whenever I couldn't dance in eighth grade and ninth grade cause we didn't have, uh, we didn't have the funds for that, I was just like I was lost, like I I just got into just watching a lot, a lot of movies instead, basically. So, movies became your identity. If you couldn't dance, yeah, movies. And then also that's when I really like, unfortunately, started to struggle a lot with, um, with anorexia, and bulimia was around that time, um, when I couldn't dance anymore because it felt like I wanted to do something it's. I felt like I wanted to be in control of my body in some way and that was kind of like the substitute at that time.
Speaker 1:Man, I was going to ask you what movies you were watching, but now you're talking and you brought up anorexia and bulimia. So these eating disorders were a way to control. Like what were you trying to get a control over?
Speaker 2:I was trying to control my weight, but I think ultimately I was all like I, you trying to get a control over I was trying to control my weight, but I think ultimately I was all like I was trying to control my emotions because I had started like binge eating when I was by myself, when I was like seven years old, and it was kind of an on and off thing, just kind of based on like what I needed, because there were seasons in my life and years when I didn't binge eat at all, but it was when I was going through things that were way too much for me to handle.
Speaker 2:Um, like, I see the like the illustration they're like actually having too much on my plate, I would, I would, I would binge eat a lot to like cope with, like the stress of having too much, um, like too much on my heart that I didn't know how to deal with and stuff. So, um, so whenever I, after my parents got divorced, I actually did start binge eating again, cause I didn't know how to, you know, deal with or cope with that and uh and so, as a way to offset that, then I started controlling more like my intake, because I didn't know how to control the binge eating, because I didn't know how to control my emotions so the, the, the eating or the not eating was kind of like buffering these heavy emotions that were going on in your life yeah, basically because I didn't know what else to do with them other than kind of like manage them or like displace them in a certain way.
Speaker 1:Man. So you started the eating disorder, you said, in high school, or was it before that, or uh, yeah, pretty much.
Speaker 2:My like my freshman year of high school was when it got really bad, where it was like consuming. Most of my thoughts was like what I wasn't gonna eat that day or what I was, and it's really sad because, like there was a lot of like new opportunities, you know, in high school to make friends and and be known and all this stuff.
Speaker 1:And I think it even was a buffer from that because I was really scared to be actually like known and seen did you know and this is gonna sound stupid, I'm just ignorant did you know, like I do have an eating disorder, but you just didn't know how to not have one?
Speaker 2:um, that's a really good question actually, because I did know that what I was doing was dysfunctional, but it was also, partially, I felt, like a cry for help that no one was hearing. I had people confront me about it a couple of times, but I would usually deny it, or oftentimes people would approach me and they would just compliment me on my weight loss. So it was like easier for me to just take the compliment and keep doing what I was doing, because I was, I think I didn't want to let it go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that that was your safety in some ways, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because at least, like, if I was thinking about that or controlling that or, you know, focusing on that, then I like that was, uh, totally predictable. So once after my parents got divorced and we were just living in separate houses and stuff, um, a lot of stuff like just you know, a lot of stuff obviously just changed a lot. So, um, I started to see this side of my dad that like I just didn't spend a lot of time with my dad before they got divorced. So I got to really see him like show up for me, and he was. He was always really excited whenever we came over and he would have like stuff Like I was vegetarian at the time, so he would like he would cook for me, like he would like look up recipes for me and stuff and make them, and it was really sweet.
Speaker 2:And we would always play like rock band together, me and my brother and my dad and, um, yeah, and like I would sing and then they would play like guitar and drums and I just those were like some sweet times. But then, uh, then I got into like dating. At that time when I was like in eighth grade I had like my first boyfriend and uh, that's when a lot of things started to like go really downhill was when I started. Like you know, when you start dating as a 13 year old, it's just, it's messy, you know, it's a lot yeah, you got to keep your head on a swivel, and so you know you're like.
Speaker 1:It means you got to be aware. Um, and what year is like? What year were you going? Eighth grade, ninth grade? Um 2008 2008, that's the year I got married. That was 16 years ago, so you are. At least the phones are not the baddest that they could be. I think later on the phones just keep getting worse and worse and, like social media, explodes, it still is not great because we got the texting at this time probably Were you guys texting a lot, it was the texting.
Speaker 1:Okay. So yeah, why did it go downhill? Tell me about that.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, it was. So this guy he was someone that I did not like, but he, he was like the first guy or like not even the first guy, I don't know. I don't know why it ended up like this. But yeah, we just started dating. I guess we just started calling each other boyfriend and girlfriend, and then he was like texting me and he would just like say like I love you and stuff, and I'd be like I don't know, and then I would just like tell him that I loved him, even though I knew I was like I don't really know what you mean and like this guy doesn't even know me.
Speaker 2:Um, but I think I was really, really really just wanting companionship and for someone to be close to and to text me and stuff.
Speaker 2:So, um, unfortunately, that's that's what it was at the time. And uh, yeah, he, I knew that he had an like unfortunate like thing happened to him when he was growing up, so he was also kind of like wounded from that. So he was like coming on to me in a way that was like not welcome, but I also didn't know how to respond to it so, and I didn't have a close relationship with either of my parents at this time, so they didn't know anything about this. But, um, but this guy, he was just like talking to me about sex and stuff and I actually had no interest in that and I actually like hadn't even thought about it before, really, um, but then he's like talking to me about it and I didn't know what to say because no one had really told me, like okay, if someone is like offering you sex or whatever, like this is what you do? Um, so I just kind of went along with it and I just kept like seeing him, even though it made me uncomfortable, I guess.
Speaker 1:So for sure, and so, yeah, that's a whole world that you don't really have a grasp on. What would you do to try to figure out what you were going to do? Were you just like feeling it out? Like, well, maybe I should do this? Or did you talk?
Speaker 2:to anybody, or you just watch movies which told you that it was all going to be perfect and it was 13 going on 30. Oh my gosh. Yeah, the movies definitely didn't help because, like the movies also didn't tell me what I could do, or like I didn't, yeah, I didn't have any practical wisdom or like guidance at this time. So I, after a while I broke up with him because he I told him a secret about my friend and he told all of them in an art class or something, and there was, like you know, when your friends are mad at you in middle school and it's like the worst day of your life.
Speaker 1:Oh, I know, I know what that's like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that's what happened, and all my friends were mad at me and then I broke up with him and that's kind of how that ended. It only lasted like two weeks or something, but it was like enough to be like okay.
Speaker 1:So this is what dating is like, I guess oh, I think that like your first time dating somebody and, yeah, that can make a huge impact on you, right?
Speaker 2:yeah, I did yeah so, moving on from there, um what happened um, I was heavily monitoring every single thing that I ate at that time. So it was like, uh, and then there was like my mom started dating and that was like a whole thing, so um, which I did not enjoy. Um, so, yeah, there's a lot happening at home. And then I was just like going to school and then I got I started having a best friend who she identified as bisexual and, uh, this started like influencing me a lot and like the people that I was hanging out with, so my, my group of friends now that I'm in high school, it was mostly stoners and, uh, artists, artists, stoners and people who are like, maybe dabbling in like gay community kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:So you said it had a lot of influence.
Speaker 2:Describe that so I I also I had had two gay dance teachers that were they were a couple whenever I was like, from like sixth grade on. So I also had other influences as well. But yeah, because she was my best friend and, like you know, girl friendships can be kind of it was just very enmeshed kind of friendship where we like we just talk to each other constantly and everything, and so her like finding this, finding her identity and being bisexual, like I was like I started wondering, like I was like could that be like maybe why I've struggled in these certain ways, or maybe this is why I feel like I don't fit in, or something like that. Like I was really trying to find identity and that gave me like kind of like maybe I was like maybe that could be it for me, even though I had never experienced same-sex attraction ever. So.
Speaker 1:So it seemed like there might be an answer to the awkwardness of just regular teenage life. You're like this could be an answer to get me out of the awkwardness, or this could be who I am.
Speaker 2:Yes, or at least it could be an answer for me, because at up to that point I didn't know, because I didn't have the language for it and I didn't, I didn't know how to address it. But I had felt so much grief and so much pain from just things in my childhood, like just feeling really like bullied and not seen and not heard and things like that growing up, that I didn't know how to put words to it. So I thought something was wrong with me. So I thought maybe like oh, maybe this is what it is is because I'm actually just like gay or bisexual or something, and maybe when I start to like actually live that way, I'll feel more like right.
Speaker 1:So how did that go? Did it have answers for you?
Speaker 2:It was rough. So I actually okay. So I didn't start dating a girl until 10th grade. It was after. So I dated a boy for I think a couple months or something in ninth grade. It did not end well. He like he broke up with me and it was unexpected and that was like it hurt a lot, um, so I think that was even more fuel to the fire. I guess, uh, for me to be like maybe I should date a girl, I guess, at that point. And then once I did, it was weird because I knew I didn't like her like that, but I also wanted to make it work somehow.
Speaker 1:Hmm, you wanted to make it work with the girl somehow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I was like, if I don't give it my best shot, then I don't really know what else to do after this, like in terms of like how to get, how to like answer the questions that I had about like everything.
Speaker 1:Were you pretty much like I'm gay? Or were you like maybe I'm gay, maybe I'm bisexual? If I give this my best shot, then I'll find out. Um, is that a weird?
Speaker 2:question. No, it's like. That's like a really good question because at the time I was like trying on labels, I guess, uh, I was okay, so I was. This was a big influence on me. I was really heavy on Tumblr.
Speaker 1:Of course, you were 100%. I probably reblogged. Actually, what was your Tumblr? Was it very colorful?
Speaker 2:It was very romantic, I guess. I reblogged a lot of photos of beautiful flowers, like beautiful, like flowers and like quotes and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:And Lena Del Rey lyrics.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was all over Tumblr. Mine was minimalism, but I'm really thoughtful and here's some Lost in Translation posters and some Frank Ocean songs and some old school Like I just really wanted to be cool, but mind you, like I'm not in high school at this point, when tumblr's like I'm 25 or something like that. So it was a little different for me, but so tumblr was a huge influence on you tumblr was a huge influence.
Speaker 2:I mean well, because, apart from, like the images and stuff, like the images were big, especially with, I mean, tumblr is kind of known for contributing to eating disorders. Honestly, I don't. I know that they have more measures now, uh, to help people to stay away from like the pro-anorexia, pro-volemia kind of stuff, but at that point there was no, there was no guardrails on that, so it was just like there were blogs that were straight up like here's how to be anorexic, basically. So that was like some of the stuff that I followed, but also a lot of it was, uh, feminism. So I got really into feminism after my parents got divorced.
Speaker 2:Um, because after my parents got divorced, that's actually when I stopped. I realized. That's when I stopped believing in god, like as I I knew him in the Catholic church because I saw I was like I saw them preach against divorce all the time. So then, when my parents got divorced, I was like this is all trash, like this is all garbage, like none of this makes any sense, cause my parents couldn't do it, like that's how I felt at the time.
Speaker 1:And so then you went hard with feminism. Uh, tumblr was a whole movement. Tumblr was scary the amount of pornography on Tumblr. It was wild, wild west. And yeah, I had a blog that I had started back probably around 2008. Back probably around 2008, and I think I just ended up knowing so much about the internet that I should have never really known about the internet because, like, the internet's not a great place. I mean, there's great stuff on the internet, but there's also just the worst things that you can learn. And somewhere like tumblr is so, yeah, it can influence you so deeply because, like, there's these pages that are your whole aesthetic, like you're, like I want to be that kind of person, and so then you just steal from it and so you like that was heavily influencing you, is what you're saying.
Speaker 2:Yes, it was like the text posts, like the pictures, but I think it's just, it's so persuasive, especially because I was addicted to it. Actually, when I think about it, like I would just sit in my room and just scroll on tumblr for hours, um, if I wasn't, you know, if I wasn't at school or whatever, like that would just be, what I would be doing would be just scrolling on tumblr. So it it just kind of like had this like complete grasp on my attention. So, like I like it was like little by little, but then eventually I was just completely like um, like a like a really angry feminist, basically. So man.
Speaker 1:So then, were you like I'm gay or I'm bi, or had you decided, or were you just like I'm not even going to make a decision, I'm just like go with the flow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I didn't answer that question, okay, uh, so I had friends that would like ask me and in my mind I didn't really know I I was going back and forth a lot of the time. Um, because tumblr was a big part of that as well. I think that's why I got into that. So tumblr would have these posts that would be like there would be like this master list. That would be like you're a, a lesbian if it would have all these like definitive things. But it's like, if you were to look at it, it's kind of ridiculous because it would be like basically just describing the feeling of feeling uncomfortable around men, basically, Hmm.
Speaker 1:Had you had? Were you uncomfortable around men? I mean, I think in high school high school is a lot. So if being uncomfortable around men makes you this like that's, that's the problem with all of this stuff, and then we believe it and we become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Speaker 2:So you saw that stuff and you were like, huh, this is speaking to me, maybe yeah, like I it was speaking more into like the like nitty-gritty of my experiences than most things had in my life, like definitely more than the catholic church had and definitely more than I don't know anything at school. So so I was just really looking for meaning behind the experiences I had had and some sort of label to give myself so I could kind of know even what I wanted, I guess.
Speaker 1:You know, when you think about that. I think so many people are searching for that and they want to find out. And I'm just going to use this for an example. This is not a political speech. If you're like, ok, I'm going to identify with the Democratic Party because I like some of those policies, and then you see, oh, they believe this about gun control, they believe this about abortion, okay, and you just buy in oh, these are all of my beliefs. Same way, if you want to go Republican, oh, these are all of my beliefs.
Speaker 1:Um, I, from what I understand, the Catholic church has been growing a lot because the Catholic church is just like this is what we believe. So you sign up and you're like, oh, okay, I guess this is what I believe. Like you read it, oh, I guess I believe that now, and I believe that now and we're not actually moving through the spirit of God guiding us to all truth, like we're now just following doctrine rather than the God of the doctrine, and that can get weird, because then the people that don't believe the doctrine and we're not moving like Jesus, we don't actually have him, we haven't experienced it, it's just dead religion, and so dead religion can be a part of Tumblr. It can be a part of feminism. It can be a part of, like, toxic masculinity. It can be like all these things. It's dead religion and you can find it anywhere.
Speaker 2:That's so true, cause it is all rooted in fear of man. When I think about it, because that's something that the Lord has been freeing me from a lot lately, and he's just shown me that so much of my life, including the feminism and especially in the gay community, because there's so much fear of me and that's how the, that's how everything is kept in place is because if you don't, let's say, like, call someone by the name that they chose because they transitioned which we'll get to later, cause I was transitioning like right before I came to the Lord Um, but uh, like, let's say, like you do something that's offensive to someone who's in the queer community, then you're a bigot and there's no grace for you. There's no. So so much of it is enforced by fear of man, especially in that community, especially in, like, intersectional feminism. It's, it's all enforced by, enforced and reinforced by like you will be banished and we will not even consider you as a friend anymore If you don't agree with me on this.
Speaker 1:That doesn't sound great, so um, so you started dating a girl your 11th grade year. Is that what you said? 10th grade?
Speaker 2:year 10th grade.
Speaker 1:yeah, and how'd it go? How was life going for you? Did it have all the answers?
Speaker 2:No, it was so miserable and it was really sad because I just became more and more like losing more and more touch with reality. Honestly, as I was in this relationship, because I was trying to force myself to make it work in the relationship, because I don't really I don't fully know all of the reasons why, but one is I really wanted attention, if I'm going to being honest, like I and we were one of the only gay couples in the school, like up to that point ever. That was like out in, like dating, and almost everyone knew about it, and so I I think I did like it for that reason. And another reason was, like I did actually really like her company, um, and we were like we were really good friends and things like that, and I felt like she did, like I was able to let her closer than I had like the two other guys that I dated, because I there was like this safety, because I didn't feel scared of her in a sexual way. So that was part of it.
Speaker 2:I think I was really dependent on her for my identity, because I was pretending to be something that I wasn't while I was with her. So I thought like, if I leave, leave this. Like I was like in turmoil almost every day, like I had like so much actual like now that I think about it it was my conscience like convicting me because I knew I wasn't being honest, uh, and so every day, almost. There were some days where I wouldn't think about it as much, but almost every day I would wake up and be like I gotta break up with her and what was the reason?
Speaker 1:just because?
Speaker 2:it was. I knew that there was something deeply wrong. Like I knew that I was lying about who I was. I knew that I was like not in touch with reality and I knew that, ultimately, like this wasn't good for me and this wasn't gonna go anywhere and like this was, I just had this like deep sense of like doom and like that there was something deeply wrong with what I was doing, but I didn't know how to. I didn't know how to leave. We were together for almost the whole year, so like seven months-ish. Wow, yeah. So how did it?
Speaker 1:end.
Speaker 2:So I think it was God's mercy on us, honestly, because she got in trouble for drug paraphernalia and her parents found out about it and they sent her away to her dad's house for the summer with her sister and so we couldn't see each other the entire summer. So we just broke up at the beginning of the summer because I had already it's so weird because I had already told her like that I was having a lot of thoughts and I was kind of distressed about. I was like, should we stay together? Like should we not? And eventually she was just like well, I'm going to be gone for the whole summer and it seems like we need to break up, because you keep on thinking about breaking up all the time. So that's kind of how it ended.
Speaker 1:So through the rest of high school, was this pretty much your thing, going back and forth with this, or what happened throughout the rest of high school?
Speaker 2:The rest of high school was. So my 10th grade year I also got back into dance and that became a bigger part of my life and I was at my lowest weight during that year as well and I started getting like a lot of like big parts in my dances and stuff like that and that was like that was like very bittersweet because I was also the least healthy that I had ever been. So it was bittersweet to be like put in this position of like being the center, you know, like being center stage, but also feeling like the most sickly and most disconnected from myself that you know I'd ever been before and uh, so that was like that was hard. But then, uh, yeah, there was still some more dating.
Speaker 2:I got more into drugs and alcohol as uh, those years went on and I actually started doing uh, more psychedelics. So I was doing like mushrooms and, yeah, drinking, smoking, weed, just going to a lot of parties and stuff. Like my best friend, she, her house, like her parents, would just let us have parties there and they would even sometimes provide alcohol for us. So it would just be like us and a bunch of our like teenage friends, you know, just partying a lot of the time, uh, doing psychedelics and uh, other than that, like my, my dad and my stepmom moved in together, so, um, you know, I still have my little brother in the house and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:But I was really wrapped up in like in the drugs and like the tumblr and all that stuff. Um, yeah, did you know like this wasn't the way you wanted to live, or were you like this is what life is about. Maybe we don't think about that when we're in high school. Maybe we're just trying to figure it out, right?
Speaker 2:yeah, I didn't think I was gonna live the rest of my life that way, but I also knew that I didn't know. I couldn't think of a better option yeah were the mushrooms?
Speaker 1:like what is that? Like a? Like you do that to get to drown sorrows or to just you're like, oh, I want to experience like a crazy trip. Like what was the the motive for that?
Speaker 2:I think the first time it was because, like friend and her brother they had done them before I think I just wanted to be in a different state of mind than I was usually. That seemed to be a way to do it. Drinking was fine, but that only lasted like a couple hours, you know, if you're drunk, but with the mushrooms you would be tripping for like 8 to 12 hours. Yeah, I just saw that. It seemed like, when I watch other people tripping, like they were going somewhere else, like it's not, like they weren't there anymore, and I didn't want to be like. I didn't know how to be in my body and be like content or uh, yeah, I didn't know how to do that. So I thought, maybe, like if I could. It was kind of like just yeah, if I could escape.
Speaker 1:Were you really cool at school? Were you one of the cool? Okay, really cool at school, were you one of the cool? Okay, I substitute almost every single day at these different public schools and I see kids going through what you're going through right now and if I can, I'll speak life to them and I'll just try to encourage them. I'm like you know, you're enough, right, or you know, you know, I just try, try to press, press something on and put something on a positive and encouraging.
Speaker 1:Um, there's this one girl at the school I substitute it like. She dresses up to the nines every single day crazy makeup, like makeup that it's just like. I'm sure it took like an hour and I'm I. I said man, I said that's you cool, like, what are you going for with this? She's like oh, I just want to like. This just really makes me feel like I'm myself or something like that, and I'm like well, I'm like good job, I mean you look really cool, but I, I see like an emptiness, I see like, and so I'm just trying to provide some. So my question on were you cool? Like? I guess that's where it's coming from, cause I see all these young people and they're just want to be a certain thing and just by who I see you. You are on like Instagram. I think they like you, seem like super cool, like you seem like a super cool type of person.
Speaker 2:Maybe that's a stupid question but is that what you were like in high school, just like moving that way? Um, I don't think it's interesting, because I think I thought I was super cool but I also had really low self-worth at the same time, so like I thought I was better than everyone else somehow, but I also had very little self-esteem. So I wouldn't say I was cool, especially in a Texas high school. I feel like cool is like you're a cheerleader or something like that. But I was very much part of the outcast group. But I would say in that group, yeah, I was cool, I would wear all thrifted. Like yeah, I was cool, like I was. You know, I I would wear like all thrifted clothes and like that was my, that was my thing, like I was very okay with being really different than everyone else.
Speaker 1:I guess oh yeah, you were cool, super cool. Okay, so tell me what like keep, keep going. What happened after that?
Speaker 2:So, yeah, the rest of high school was kind of a blur in that way. So there was just, you know, a lot of stuff going on at home and just going between the two houses and not really having a relationship with either of my parents where I could like go to them with anything. And you know, those like last couple years of high school are really hard anyway. So, uh, then I started dating, uh, this guy. Okay, there were yeah, there were a couple other relationships, but I actually started dating my best friend's brother at a certain point and that was really destructive relationship and we were like doing drugs and stuff together and there was like some unwanted like sexual things that happened. And it was hard because it was also my you know, my best friend's little brother. Like he was like a year younger than us. So I didn't know how to handle that because it also separated me and my friends.
Speaker 2:So there was some hard stuff with that. So there was some hard stuff with that. And then my senior year I started dating this guy that I actually ended up dating for like three or four years and that was like my first, I guess, like serious relationship where, like he actually really valued me and supported me a lot. And in my senior year of high school I also went to I finally went to treatment for bulimia as well. How was that? It was intense. I finally told my mom because she didn't know about the bulimia part. She knew that I was starving myself for a lot of years and she made comments about it. But uh, she didn't know about that. So I texted her one day like I was like I think I actually just need to tell my mom about this and uh, almost immediately they found a treatment program for me and they put me in it praise god yeah and it was just it was some helpful, like what was the main thing that was able to help you?
Speaker 2:It was mostly being in community, honestly. So it was a. It was a partial hospitalization program, so we were with each other for 10 hours a day and we were just being in small groups all day. We'd be eating all of our meals together and it was just a bunch of other girls. Some of them were in their like like early twenties, but most of us were in our teens, so we were all just together and we all had really similar stories. So I think that was the most healing part was just us being able to share with each other, obviously being in therapy and stuff like that. And I even saw some ways that God was definitely working through that, even though I didn't really know him or believe him at that point.
Speaker 1:What was the number one thing that helped you overcome the bulimia, like the idea or the tactic or thing that was giving life? Um.
Speaker 2:I think mostly. Well, it just it thrives so much in the dark because for so many years I was doing it all of the time like it was consuming a lot of my energy and focus, and anytime I was alone, it would just be like binging and purging a lot, so and even sometimes like throughout the day, like I would, I would sneak away. So it was this like big thing that was like in darkness. So once I told people about it in my life that like knew me, that was like the biggest thing actually was just like bringing something to light that they didn't know and something that was a big part of my life, I guess. So I think that was probably the most impactful thing.
Speaker 1:Wow, maybe I'll save that for the end. Yeah, what would you tell someone who's listening to this? I mean, I guess the gospel has so much to do with it like we can give tactics and methods and all of that, but jesus has to actually show you that you're enough, that that he died for you, because it's just like in many ways it's a cry for help, right? Am I off on that?
Speaker 2:it definitely was for me and it was just a dysfunctional way of dealing with like I felt, like I had a sense and actually a lot of the other girls said this as well, we had a whole conversation about this that we felt like there was something evil that was ruling us from inside. Oh, wow. And so I felt like, in a physical sense, bulimia was a way for me to almost like.
Speaker 1:I felt like maybe I was trying to deliver myself by purging. That's delivering yourself.
Speaker 2:Yes, like I didn't have a concept of what deliverance was at that time or anything like that, but I think I was trying to get rid of something that was evil inside of me. Like I was trying to like like I was ruled by something that was evil that they, uh, that they didn't have control over, and so it's an like looking back on that now, like it makes a lot of sense now knowing, like who god is and also like how sin works and how, like like demonic stuff works and stuff like that, or at least knowing a little bit about it. But yeah, that was literally like things that some of the girls said.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's crazy. So, as you moved on graduating high school, you're moving on into the world. What was your plan?
Speaker 2:not been much of one to look into my future and be like this is what I'm going to do. I didn't really. I was pretty aimless, honestly. I did pretty well in school. I got by, and especially in high school, with very little effort. I was not focused on school at all, but I still got through it and I did okay. And then I ended up going to college for writing because that's something that I also have done since I was really young is, I love to write, especially like poetry, um, but like all sorts of stuff I love writing and so I just decided I would study writing and in college and uh, yeah, college was. There was a lot of like good opportunities there, uh, especially for me to find some independence and find, like my voice and my like my identity away from my family. But there was, uh, there was so much. I just fell into so many traps there because I didn't have, uh, any any wisdom going into that.
Speaker 1:So did you have a moral? It seems like you've always had kind of a little moral compass when you got to college. Did that change?
Speaker 2:We also started talking about dating other people or having a polyamorous relationship, and that's when a lot of stuff went. Very downhill was when we started dating other people while we were dating each other and eventually we just broke up, and that's when I just started. Honestly, I just started going on dating apps and I was sleeping with like a different person, like every week for a while.
Speaker 1:Were you depressed at this time or were you just like? This is what college is about.
Speaker 2:I was, so I guess I didn't get into that, but also when I was going through treatment and things like that, I also got diagnosed with like a bunch of different things. So bipolar was something that I was diagnosed with. So whenever I was in college at the time, like I would go through these extreme highs and then that's when a lot of the, a lot of the promiscuity and stuff would happen, and then and then I would have a lot of like really deep lows as well, and then I would have a lot of really deep lows as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, where'd you go to school? I mean, you're from Austin.
Speaker 2:Did you go to Texas or did you go somewhere else?
Speaker 1:I went to St Edward's. And is this like a small liberal arts school?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was like a private school.
Speaker 1:And you were going to be the next American author. Like literature, was literature your thing.
Speaker 2:You're studying writing yeah, english writing and rhetoric was my degree I studied, uh, creative writing was mine so, yeah, how did the rest of that go?
Speaker 1:man, the polyamorous thing that it does not seem like that's the answer for anybody or that it ever works out. And there's this meme where they're actually talking about polyamory, where the guy's just like it never works for anybody, but maybe for us it'll work. I think it's uh, that's in arrested development. This guy's like but for us it'll work and I just think that's no, it's not gonna work. Um, yeah, how did it go with all that just then, dating a bunch of different people and and not maybe even dating them, just hooking up, did it? Did it bring the answers?
Speaker 2:no, um, I kept dating people and then eventually I was in a live-in relationship with a guy that I had met on Tinder and we were with each other for a long time. He had addiction issues and I found myself just like continually trying to rescue him and fix him and save him and things like that, and that's kind of how our relationship was for a while. Like I was kind of like doing all the stuff that he didn't know how to do in his life, like I don't know, I was really taking on like a mom role for him and it was really dysfunctional.
Speaker 1:but we lived together for, uh, yeah, for like three years you, you just, you're just a sweet person and uh, and this is a this is, this is sad. Um, how did that end up? How'd you get out of that?
Speaker 2:that was actually a really big part of the story, because so, yeah, we've been dating for a long time. Like I, once I graduated, I started working at this non-profit and I really liked the job, but I had no peace. So it's like if I didn't have something to do at the job and I was just sitting there like I was like I don't know what to do with myself and I was like overwhelmed with having this job that I really liked, and then this boyfriend that I supposedly loved, and then all of these opportunities. But I still had to deal with the fact that, like I didn't like myself and I didn't. I'd never felt like anything I did was good enough when I was on the job.
Speaker 2:And it's so weird because, like, even in the past couple years, I've looked back at the work that I did and all of the writing that I did, like everything that I did was so like excellent, like there was a, there was excellence behind what I was doing, but I like I couldn't see it at the time.
Speaker 2:So I was just stressed out at this job and I was like, what am I gonna do, like and um, continuing to just find that like I wasn't happy in the relationship and I wanted to leave, but I also didn't know what I would do alone. So, um, so eventually I kind of signed on to this like lie that I was like this is it? It's because I'm a lesbian, that's why, and like at that point, I had stopped dating women for like several years. Um, but at this point, like I was like well, I've dated this guy for three years, I don't really want to be with him anymore. It must be because, like I'm like either defective or like I'm just with I'm I'm with the wrong gender so then you broke up with him because, like turns out, I am a lesbian that's kind of it.
Speaker 2:It seemed that way, but it's interesting because, okay, so like the last, like maybe six months that we were together, we actually started going to church together and that's when I started encountering actually God, like who God really is. I started really like learning about the gospel. So we went to this church in Austin. It was very like welcoming and kind of like come as you are, kind of church. And we went and I actually heard this woman. She was singing Reckless Love and she was singing it with such like gusto and it was clear that it meant a lot to her. And it was the first time that I've ever seen someone sing about Jesus and sing to Jesus where it seemed like she really loved him. She really knew that he loved her.
Speaker 2:And I was just standing next to my boyfriend in this church and he's just like nonchalantly sipping some free coffee or whatever. And I was just like he's not experiencing this right now, he's not experiencing the love of Jesus right now. But I see that like she is actually really loved and like I actually really want that. And then I just kept looking at him and I was like, but I'm with this guy. Hell, he's not getting it. No, he wasn't experiencing it at all.
Speaker 2:And at that point I was like, okay, and at one point I actually so he was struggling with his addiction the whole time, you know um, where, and it was really. It was painful because he would like lie to me about it and then we would go to like na together and all these different things, and I was just like doing all this stuff that I didn't need to be doing. But but at one point I actually prayed to God. I was like God, if you heal him from this addiction, like I'll believe in you. And then a couple of weeks later he he started going to like a clinic and he got on methadone and he was clean and sober for a while. And I think I got really scared because I was like, oh God actually answered my prayer.
Speaker 1:So I have to believe in you now.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So did that keep going? Or because you said that the relationship ended by you kind of saying well, maybe I'm a lesbian. How did that go to?
Speaker 2:well, the relationship ending I think that that made me have to confront. I was like, oh god, might be real and I might have to actually face a lot of this stuff that I've been avoiding for a really long time. And I realized that once my boyfriend at the time was clean, I didn't feel any connection to him anymore because I didn't have to fix him anymore. So I was more aware as well that there was a lot of manipulation and control on both sides. But I was I was also becoming aware that he didn't like it when I talked to my friends about the relationship. He didn't like it when I like brought other people into it because I think he didn't want me to see that like I could leave him and like I would be better off.
Speaker 2:And then, uh, what happened was, uh, I actually went on a trip with my friends to Colorado and that helped me really see, like because my friends, they just really love me and they're friends that I had since high school, and when I came back I was like I just gotta break up. And when I came back I was like I just got to break up with him, like I just spent like a couple of weeks with my friends out in the mountains and there's no way I want to be with this guy anymore. So so it was really hard, but I did break up with him and it was like it was really. It was really volatile after that but, uh, he did leave and he actually moved out of the state when I broke up with him.
Speaker 1:So sometimes that's the for the best, because if they're around these relationships like this that takes so much time, it's not just like a clean break. Right Takes like the breaking up takes quite a bit of time. So after that you're like what's the plan?
Speaker 2:What's the plan thing again, where I would just go on dates with lots and lots and lots of people and just sleep with lots and lots and lots of people. So at this point, after we broke up, like I would just be, you know, if I wasn't working or whatever. Even sometimes, like while I was working, I would be like trying to figure out my next date and stuff like that. So that was, that was a big part of my life, um, until I would find someone that, like we would stay together for a while, basically so the the dating app community, what?
Speaker 1:what would you say about that? Is it? Is it wild, wild west out there? Like, how, like it seems like you have some expertise in the dating app community. What is that like?
Speaker 2:um, it's interesting, I have no idea praise god for that honestly, though, but um it, um it. I've noticed because I've actually been on dating apps a little bit more lately, with a totally different intention, and it's kind of something for everyone. So if you're on there to cruise and find someone just to hook up with for the night or whatever, that's available for you. But if you're there to find someone to be a friend, then that's available for you. But if you're there to find someone to connect with on a deeper place, that's also available. So it kind of just depends, like what your intentions are and like you're gonna find someone that pretty much will meet those things that you're looking for so maybe it's.
Speaker 1:The problem is that it's everything and it's all right there and it's at your fingertips, where before you had to be vulnerable and put yourself out there a little bit more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's like your fingertips, where before you had to be vulnerable and put yourself out there a little bit more yeah, and it's like it's kind of like this like position of authority, to be like swiping on people and like you're like I approve or like I don't approve, and like I felt like in some way it made me feel powerful so you're?
Speaker 1:you're back back on your old stuff, meeting all these people. Still no answers. What happened?
Speaker 2:dating someone that I actually we went to. We went to middle, we actually went to elementary, middle school and high school together and she was this girl who I hadn't connected with in a while but she still lived in in the area. So we dated for a while and we actually got engaged and uh, but that that ended before, before we could uh married.
Speaker 1:Unfortunately, man, I'm just thinking see you on the Bible study. I don't know how long you've been going on a Bible study. I would have no idea. I don't even know how old you are. I guess I could do the math right now. You've had some hard stuff in your life. I would never had have guessed it, cause you just come on there with your, your smile, and I'm like oh hey, allie, have we, you know? And before I knew you, I'm like is this your first time on here, or whatever? Um man, this is blowing me away. So, uh, you're back on this. When did you start this transitioning thing?
Speaker 2:oh yeah, okay, so that was the. That was the next big relationship, so I had a couple more in there. It's it's crazy. So if I were to like go through all of them, it would take you know, like forever, but um, but so there were.
Speaker 2:So actually the first person that I dated was transitioning at age 15. That person was transitioning, and so I had had other relationships with people throughout who were transitioning, so there was like an influence there, for sure. And also a big part of this was whenever I was in high school, there was this organization in Austin that was like a youth organization for queer people, and that's where I learned a lot of that stuff too. So it wasn't just the Tumblr, it was like also there were like literally actually adults teaching me about like anal sex and about transitioning and about different things like that, and they were creating a space with like minors basically to learn about this stuff. And like there was also like free STD testing and stuff. My parents had no idea that I was going to this, so that was a big factor as well. I just thought I should mention that.
Speaker 1:So there's this is going to sound super ignorant, but I'm going to ask it anyway. When you were transitioning, was it? I think I'm a guy, or was it I want to be a guy?
Speaker 2:Um, so at that point I had been. So why I was tying in the dating was because at that point I had been dating someone for a while who was starting to transition and then, by the point that we broke up, which was actually right before I came to Christ, she was already starting to identify more as male. But at this point I don't know how it is now because I've been out of that game for a few years now, because I've been out of that game for a few years but uh, it was like it was just becoming so post-modern to where there was non-binary and all these different things, and so that's what I was identifying with at the time was non-binary, which was like neither male nor female. It was like I don't even know.
Speaker 1:Uh, why did you choose non-binary?
Speaker 2:um, binary, um, that's a good question, I think, because I still recognize that there was a lot of aspects of my femininity that I enjoyed and that I didn't, I didn't want to let go of or I still thought were me, you know. But then I also wanted the I think partially it was for protection. I kind of wanted the safety of having an identity that wasn't totally female or something like that. And then I also felt like maybe it was the answer to why I felt different than other women, different than other women.
Speaker 2:So then when you transition, you were just like if you were dating a woman but she's not transitioning, but you want to transition to be a guy, would you still want to be with that woman, but you just want to be the guy, and so it was so complex at that point because I mean, there were some like you know like which femme kind of relationships and stuff, and I, I tried to do the butch thing for quite a while. Uh, it's not, it's not really me, but I did do that for a while, at least a couple of years. But I think there's also this ideology that it's really complex and it doesn't make any sense because it's not true. But there's this difference between gender identity and sexual orientation that they talk about a lot, and sexual orientation that they talk about a lot. So like I felt like I was not a woman and not a man, but I also would date anyone, basically, so it is confusing.
Speaker 1:It's not just it looks confusing to me, it actually is confusing.
Speaker 2:It is confusing.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, it actually is confusing. It is confusing, yes, yeah, how were you making sense of it?
Speaker 2:then just based on how you were feeling. Yeah, it was entirely driven by my feelings and what seems right at the time, or what would bring me the most like pleasure, or what would be the most like sometimes, what would like look the cutest, or something like. There was really no, no substance behind it. Uh, at a certain point, because most of these relationships were just sexual too. So. So then you made a decision. Did you make a decision? One day, like I'm going to transition?
Speaker 1:or were you just kind of looking into it and then, like, start taking some of the. So then you made a decision. Did you make a decision one day like I'm going to transition, or were you just kind of looking into it and then, like, start taking some of the hormones and I don't even know if that's the right way to say it. Um, like, how did that happen?
Speaker 2:so first it started with changing my name, so I just started going by Alex, um, because my name is Alexandra and and it was interesting because that was actually something I did when I was like in middle school, was like with my friends, sometimes I would dress up as a boy and we would like pretend, we would like do like, pretend that I was and like that can be.
Speaker 2:That can be like just innocent fun sometimes, but for me it was like I like dressing up as this I don't even know as this, like other person kind of a thing, so that's kind of like at the very end, right before you know I actually came to christ. It was like that other identity coming to the front, being like like kind of like staking its claim and being like this is who you are basically so then you're like I'm gonna go back to this alex thing or this is, I'm gonna go by this name yes, it started with the name and then I started also wearing like a chest binder, so those things, especially if you're like, because I was, I was doing a really active job working in the bar and stuff.
Speaker 2:So that was like really unhealthy, but like, yeah, just like basically binding my chest and then, you know, wearing different clothes. And I mean, to anyone I would pretty much just look like probably like a butch lesbian or something like that. But uh, in my mind, like I, I don't know, I was something else.
Speaker 1:So you were working at a bar at this point?
Speaker 2:you're not doing the writing anymore. No, I felt like at that point, while I was still kind of like you know, I would make some art or do something I was pretty disconnected from like most parts of me that were important at that point. So I wasn't really writing, I wasn't doing that. But I was working at a gay bar and that was the first time. So I moved out and when that breakup happened I moved out into a house with roommates and I was just living with roommates for the first time, not living with a significant other for the first time in several years.
Speaker 1:So yeah, so what was working? Did working at this bar influence you, or was it? What was that like?
Speaker 2:Yes, like more than I thought it would. When I joined, it just seemed like this is a great community. It was a really good pay, so that was a big thing. And then, because it was community, that was like they actually did listen to me and we liked each other's personalities, like the people I worked with and stuff, and we became really close-knit because we were working together and doing a lot of hard stuff together and everything. Because it was like that community aspect, like there was a lot of room for them to influence me. But I mean, the stuff that they were doing like was stuff I was pretty much already doing, except for I got way deeper into new age and witchcraft while I was working there.
Speaker 1:So you're working there, you're wearing the chest restrictor, and were you taking hormones at this point too, or just like, nah, not yet.
Speaker 2:No, I think that was a mercy from God, because since I was little I've always been really afraid of needles.
Speaker 1:And so you're like not going there yet.
Speaker 2:No, I was just like. I'm not going to do it.
Speaker 1:So then would you still say you were transitioning though.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think mainly because I was going by a different name and I was like intentionally, you know, like not yeah yeah, I was like finding my chest and everything.
Speaker 1:So so then, how did the new age and witchcraft stuff come in? Like your mind was open to it being a possibility, as, like this is a way I could live my life, or were you, like, just interested in it?
Speaker 2:uh no, it became a all day, every day kind of thing, where oh my uh, where it was like.
Speaker 2:First it was just, it was interesting. It was actually tiktok that drew me a lot into it. So at first I was just um, all I was doing was well, it was a lot because I was also addicted to TikTok, but I would just look at astrology ratings, a lot on TikTok. And then it drew me in deeper and at that point I already had a tarot deck. I didn't really use it, but sometimes me and my like we would use it for fun, me and my significant other, and so at that point I already had a tarot deck. But then I started getting all these tarot readings coming up on my, uh, on my for you page, and so I started getting into that as well and I started doing tarot cards on um, like on my own as well, like when, if I had like a question about something, or uh, if I wanted to, I don't know, yeah, if I basically like, it's just like a counterfeit of prayer. That's how I was using it.
Speaker 1:Wow, so TikTok, tumblr, then TikTok. Would you be praying to like this other realm or would you just like you were just like living in a certain way?
Speaker 2:uh, no, I was praying. Um, it was interesting. So I actually learned from tiktok. Uh, I'd be interested to hear, like, if there's like a lot of other people that have had this experience. But, uh, I started learning from tiktok. They like there were videos that were just saying like they were praying to spirit and, uh, just this general spirit, they're just like spirit. So I started doing that throughout the day and looking back on it now I can see how, like, god has used that for me to like learn how to discern his voice, because a lot of the time he was responding to me, uh, because like things they would like, things that I would hear, like they would actually happen or he would actually be leading me. But there were also a lot of other spirits that were talking to me as well.
Speaker 1:How could you discern which one was which?
Speaker 2:I didn't know. So I didn't know because I was also following my feelings so much at this point too, so I didn't know. Even if I heard something that was, it felt really true, let's say like about like something with my family or something, or like something about a situation in my life that I was like seeking wisdom about or seeking guidance from spirit, like I didn't know, I didn't know who I was talking to. Wow.
Speaker 1:So yeah, how did, how did what happens?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, this is the, this is.
Speaker 1:Tell me something good. Something good has got to happen soon.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, it does. So this was like. So this is when I got back into dance as well. So I started just setting up my phone and I would just start dancing and just like improvisational dance. And this is when I started to get way more connected back with like who I was and I would just like. I would just do it for hours sometimes and I would like post videos like really often, honestly, because I was like I was like documenting something, but I also, I know I wanted to be seen as well. So there was a lot in it, but I felt like I was finally like connecting with who I was again when I was dancing.
Speaker 2:And then, and then, yeah, I was just doing this, this lifestyle of like praying to spirit and like doing the tarot cards and all this stuff the tarot cards and all this stuff and then, um, like uh, eventually that led me to the point where I was on my bedroom floor and I had just done a witchcraft ceremony that, like my friend taught me how to do, because I was trying to cut the cord between me and someone, uh, who I had been like on and off dating in this like relationship for a few years, and she told me about this cord-cutting ceremony. So I did that. I actually had cursed this person and I felt this heavy conviction of shame and guilt and then I didn't know what to do with it. So I got out my phone and I called a crisis counselor and I was like I don't know what happened, I don't know why I did that and I feel really bad and I feel like I don't know what's happening in my life and I don't know what to do next. And she, like gave me a little bit of guidance, but I was like, okay, I need to like sit down and figure this out.
Speaker 2:So I got out my tarot cards because that was what I did at that point and um and no, but it gets better really quick here. So, uh, so I uh I started journaling and, uh, I was also doing the tarot cards at the same time. And it was crazy Cause I just did like I did like a four or five card spread or something and I was like what is happening right now? I know something is very wrong, so what's going on? So I did the cards and all of the cards were upside down, which I had never seen ever in my life, and I don't know, is that a? Thing?
Speaker 2:I don't know what's behind that, but all the cards are upside down, and so when the cards are flipped upside down, they have the opposite meaning.
Speaker 1:And it's weird to have them all be like that, like that's not normally how it goes.
Speaker 2:No, no, like I had never seen it before. I think like the probability of that is really low. Okay.
Speaker 2:So then I saw that and I was like, okay, I get it, everything is wrong, what's happening, I don't know. And then I did another spread and I was like, so what's the answer to this? And then I did another spread and for some reason I saw a card. I don't know what card it is now, but I had written some attributes on it and I think it said like faithful, like something like that, like truth, or something on there.
Speaker 1:And for some reason, reason, the just the words jesus forgives came to me. Jesus forgives, just from looking at this card your second time through the spread.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what did that mean in that moment? In that moment, it made me realize that what I needed was forgiveness.
Speaker 1:Okay, we're going to take a quick break from this episode of the podcast and I'm going to bring on my brother, bw Ben Williams. How long have you been rocking with the good gospel, loving that good gospel?
Speaker 4:A long time. It feels like I don't know the exact amount of time, but a while.
Speaker 1:it feels like If I wanted to hear your story, could I do that by finding it on the Death to Life podcast.
Speaker 4:I think so. To be honest, I don't think I've ever found it, because I don't like listening to myself, but I think it's there.
Speaker 1:You've been on this podcast like three times what You've been on it, three times own episode. And then, uh, the two bible verse traps.
Speaker 4:This is news to me. I but I got. I was like listen so where would I go if I, if I I didn't even know? Okay, where would I next?
Speaker 1:question. Next question then what has the gospel done in changing your life?
Speaker 4:uh, the gospel has just completely changed who I am, and maybe not, maybe not like the personal, like my personality, necessarily, but like my heart has completely changed and it's I mean, it's something that I, when I look back and I think about who I used to be and think about the things I did or the thoughts I had, like it's it just feels so wildly foreign to me because of how much Jesus has changed my heart. And so, man, he's just changed literally everything for me, not only for, like, eternal life, but also just for my everyday life. It's been great.
Speaker 1:Ben you have dedicated time, money and energy to see the gospel moving forward. Why is that important to you?
Speaker 4:It's important to me because the gift that was given to me wasn't just for me, and I think, as I realize and just take to heart more and more just who I am to God, it also makes me recognize that everybody else is also that person to God like, so precious, so valuable, and he did something amazing for all of us. And if literally anybody, like even the richest, most happy person in the world, like if they were to receive the gospel, it would change everything for the better. There's not one person that doesn't need to hear the good news, and so that's why for me, like I just want to push it forward.
Speaker 1:I love it. If you're listening to this and you want to partner with Love Reality to get the gospel moving forward, you can go to loverealityorg slash give. You know the web address loverealityorg slash give. Every dollar donated goes to moving this message forward, whether it's through the podcast, internet, church. Whether it's just getting Ben a haircut Actually, no, it is not getting Ben a haircut.
Speaker 4:Hey, I'm growing my hair out. Okay, I know it's a weird stage.
Speaker 1:I like it, dude.
Speaker 4:It's in an awkward stage. I like it. We're on our way.
Speaker 1:Your dollars do not go to that, but they go to moving the gospel forward.
Speaker 4:But if you wanted to go to that cash app at Ben Williams, Do not do that.
Speaker 2:Let.
Speaker 2:That's not even my cash app. How are you gonna get it? So that's why I asked. I was like I heard jesus forgives, and then I suddenly had this realization. I was like, oh, maybe that's actually what I need.
Speaker 2:And it was interesting so, also leading up to it a couple nights before, because I'd been, you know, praying a lot and doing a lot of like praying and tarot cards and stuff. So I at one point I felt like there was something evil in the house, so I looked up prayers for protection of my home. And so a couple nights before that, actually I had prayed to. I prayed to like father god, I prayed to jesus to protect and surround the house with his angels, and, um, I didn't really expect anything to come from it because I I didn't know, I was just trying it out, so, um, but then at that point I was like I remembered that I had prayed that and then, um, it was just so many weird things. Like I would, I would go on tiktok, and then suddenly it would say, like your spirit guides are so proud of you right now, and stuff like that, and I'd be like whoa, I was like there could be someone that's proud of me. That's watching me right now. That's so cool.
Speaker 2:And leading up to it as well yeah, I'm not trying to get sidetracked, but leading up to it, I found this box full of cards and suddenly I was able to see that people really loved me. I flipped through all these cards where it was from my dad, from my mom, from all these people, and I had had so many months where I had just shut everyone out and I was just trapped in my addiction. So I was trapped in my addiction of the witchcraft, the pornography. That was the hugest thing at that point. And then, um, and then at that point I, like I saw these cards and I was like, oh, I'm actually really loved and I can see that now for some reason. And then, um, I, I just remembered all of this as I was sitting there and I realized that I needed forgiveness. And man, I don't know, I don't know where to go from here, but, uh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So you needed forgiveness and you realize, like, did you know Jesus, like has forgiven you, like, like this is what his gig was, that he came down here to die, to forgive us and free us from our sin um, yes, so it.
Speaker 2:he revealed it to me, and so once I heard jesus forgives, then I was like, okay, I realized that what I need is forgiveness. So what do I need to do then? And I just heard the word repent and I didn't know what that meant. So I looked it up on google and then I found the like, the met, the uh, the greek term metanoia yeah, yeah, um. And that started a lot, because I realized that I I found the sinner prayer as well.
Speaker 2:I realized that I had prayed that a couple of years prior, whenever I was in that relationship with the guy where we went to the church and saw, you know, reckless love. And then I saw, I found this website that had prayers for renouncing sins, and so I just started renouncing everything. I started renouncing homosexuality and then renouncing transsexualism and witchcraft, and I renounced all of the other things that I could think of that I did wrong. And then I texted my dad, which I hadn't talked to him for two years, and then I just went to sleep and I was like I think everything's going to be different for the rest of my life, now years, and then I just went to sleep and I was like I think everything's going to be different for the rest of my life now.
Speaker 1:Wow, so this is all coming off, this curse, this Wiccan practice that you had cursed this person and that you felt bad about. So you did the tarot reading. Yes so when you woke up the next morning, what did you wake up to? Was it different?
Speaker 2:yeah, it was kind of so that that whole thing happened at like two or three in the morning, so it was really late, but I I had only at that point I'd only been sleeping maybe two hours a night, if that, like that's how high, like the mania was happening.
Speaker 2:So it was like I was, I was not sleeping much at that point, so I slept a couple hours and then my dad called me first thing in the morning when he woke up, so like 7 am or something, and um, it was super nice to hear his voice. Like we literally hadn't talked for two years because I actually, whenever I was dating the girl, like long term, um, we, I just I texted him kind of like out of the blue and just said like I don't want to have a relationship because I know that you don't approve of me dating the girl that I'm dating, so, so we hadn't talked for a couple years. But then, um, yeah, he, there was no, there was no question. Like he just called me immediately as soon as I texted him. Like all I texted him was like, hey, dad, dad, uh, I just had an experience with God and I think I want to know Jesus. Uh, can you call me? That's so beautiful yeah.
Speaker 1:And so you guys had a good conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so he just like I was like I think the first thing I said was like I don't know what this means and I don't know what I'm doing. So I really want you to be patient with me. And uh, yeah, he just started answering some of the questions I had, cause I was just like, what is the Bible? Uh, why wouldn't God want to protect me from spiritual darkness? And like I just had questions and he was, he was answering them to the best of his ability at that time, but you know he he had never dabbled in that stuff.
Speaker 1:So so this was 2022,. About what month in 2022, was it?
Speaker 2:It was January.
Speaker 1:So right at the beginning of 2020. So you're just like I'm. I feel like this has got to be the way and I want to learn about it.
Speaker 2:That's kind of what your mindset was got to be the way and I want to learn about it. That's kind of what your mindset was. Yeah, because I was like I finally had reached the end of myself at that point, because, you know, I've been in the gay community on and off for like 10 years. I had dated just about every person, every color, every. You know I dated as many people as I could, so I knew that that wasn't the answer. Um, I had kind of reached the end for when it came to trying to find meaning in life, when it came to the witchcraft stuff, because I just saw myself like actually do something really evil and I was like, wait, this is clearly not it either. So, um, at that point I was like I I knew that God was speaking to me.
Speaker 1:So how'd you go about finding out who Jesus is and who God is? What'd you do?
Speaker 2:So I was already hearing a lot from God.
Speaker 2:So I started just journaling what I was hearing and like I just felt like the father really speaking to me about how he wanted to heal me from like a broken heart and how he wanted to like set me free from like cause I was really scared around guys and it didn't help that I'd had a lot of like really painful, like sexual experiences with all of the things that I was doing.
Speaker 2:So he just was speaking to me that he wanted to heal me and then so whenever I met up with my dad, he came down after like a week. I think he was like prayerfully considering it and preparing himself before he came to me, because I'm sure he wanted to come right away, but I think he was like waiting on God for the right time. So it was about a week after we initially spoke on the phone and my dad came down and he uh, he prayed for me and he shared the gospel with me and, uh, at that point, like I, I was already like ready to give my life to Jesus. So, um, so just hearing it was like more like I was, it was more of like a confirmation or it gave me more like I don't know like context for the gospel.
Speaker 1:So how long before you ran into us? And I don't even know how you did run into us.
Speaker 2:It was probably at least a year. So after I came to like my like initial faith, like, I went to a ministry school for like seven weeks and I lived out with my parents in the country for about a year and then, um, I started working at uh people that live in texas know this, but it's hgb, it's a like a really common grocery store and, um, and I was just listening to death, to life, a lot I found. I think initially it was Joel, like I was following him on Instagram, and then he, joel Moutre.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, how'd you know him? I think I followed him because I found him through like Christian Instagram or something like that, and then he messaged me about his, his podcast, and he said he sent it to me and that's the first one I listened to.
Speaker 1:His where he's like in Ukraine and he hears he sent it to me and that's the first one I listened to his where he's like in ukraine and he hears the gospel yeah, I, I think the part I remember more about it was like that.
Speaker 1:He was like like being a pharisee and stuff like that yeah, because he was addicted to porn and trying to do all this stuff. Man shout out to joel, so you found his. I all this stuff, man shout out to Joel, so you found his. I just this stuff is crazy to me. You found him on Christian Instagram. He messaged you, sent you his episode and you listened to it. Yeah, and then you started listening to all these other podcasts.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then I started joining the Bible studies and different stuff and then started joining the bible studies and different stuff and then what were you gathering like?
Speaker 1:what were you picking up from what? The podcast was like this these stories of people going from death to life or receiving the freedom freedom from sin. What were you picking up from that?
Speaker 2:um, I think I knew that I wasn't walking in the full freedom that I could have in Christ, because I was still so stressed out about what other people thought about me, but also like am I doing this right? And like is God going to leave me and all this stuff. So listening to the stories it helped me, especially like the ones where people other people had gone through like addiction and stuff like that. It helped me see that like how much compassion God had on them and it gave me faith that I could receive like a greater measure of his love and also like his nearness in my life. So listening to them, it just like I would listen like for several hours a day and it would just like build my faith and then I would start to see like god opened my heart in certain ways to receive like his voice or or to be guided by him in different ways man, and then you showed up to my bible study, or were you going to all the other ones?
Speaker 1:because I just, I remember seeing you. I was like who is this person? Because you never know who's going to all the other ones. Because I just, I remember seeing you. I was like who is this person? Because you never know who's going to show up.
Speaker 2:But I don't remember if it was yours I went to first or maybe I think it was yours. Yeah, either like the made new or death to life, maybe, but yeah and then, yeah, I think I was, was like, because I was like, oh, this is the guy that does the podcast, so yeah, yeah, and I remember you would speak out.
Speaker 1:So how long? How long ago you think? Is it been less than a year, or has it been like a year?
Speaker 2:um, since I actually started going to the bible studies, probably like about a year, or maybe like a year and a half and you're just picking up on more and more gospel.
Speaker 1:Is that what you're saying? Just learning like if I say Romans 6 7 for one who has died has been set free from sin, you feel like, yeah, like Jesus has set me free from sin. You feel like that's like, yeah, like jesus has set me free from sin. You feel like that's the kind of stuff you were learning, or just more, just background yeah, like that.
Speaker 2:So it was. It was counteracting a lot of like the things that I learned initially. So like when I first came to faith and like the ministry that I was part of at first it was. It was pretty works-based, which I know is really common for people who first enter the faith is to kind of get into that belief system. So it was really works-based. So I felt like God was using the podcast and also the community for Love Reality to get me to see that it wasn't the stuff I was doing that was determining God's love for me.
Speaker 1:So I want to ask you about what you've been growing in lately, because the reason I kind of reached out to you is I don't know if it was like a month ago or something we were on internet church and there was this idea that, like we started talking about that, we can correct behavior without hating ourselves. And it seemed like that was a revelation to you because you got emotional and man alive. If that was so touching to me just to see god loving on you at that moment, like describe what you've been going through lately and like that understanding that he I mean you tell me sure, yeah, I think what he's been freeing me from is a lot of pride.
Speaker 2:Honestly, there's a lot of pride that goes along with striving, and I think I was trying so hard that I think I was under this ideology that, after getting saved, like now, now it's my time to be perfect.
Speaker 2:Um, so that was really struggling with that and especially just seeing that, like you know I'm I'm in my late 20s like I'm navigating relationships and friendships and stuff where, like, I don't always get it right and I do disappoint people and sometimes I have a hard time loving people. So I've been navigating like a lot of like like shame and condemnation and fear and stuff around that. And I feel like he's really showing me that he's number one, he's here to teach me because I don't know what to do. And, number two, he loves me and he chose me knowing that I would mess up or fail in these ways, and he's not surprised and he's also not turned off by that like. He's not like, oh, actually I think I'm gonna leave now. So that's like been one of the most healing things for me is that he he continues to be faithful even though I don't know what I'm doing, and and I continually need his guidance.
Speaker 1:Yet to disciple somebody is to teach somebody. Discipline, at its root, is teaching. When you discipline somebody, you're teaching them A disciple, and so it's okay to learn. It's also okay that Jesus is the way and he is the truth and he is your life. So, while there's doctrine, there's things to learn. It's important for us to understand that we're free from and dead to sin and that we are forgiven. But it's also Jesus doesn't just give you methods. He is the method, he is your life. Yeah.
Speaker 1:You are back with the Father, not because you did things right, but because Jesus has brought you back to the Father, because he's the way right yeah, and I know I did.
Speaker 2:Like it's so weird when I got into this place of like pride because it's like I know I didn't do things right, like when I look back on my life, like I can see all of the ways that I took wrong turns and stuff, and the fact that that's where he met me was on, like my bedroom floor when I was the most dark and broken ever. Like that's where he met me. So when I get into this place of striving or like perfectionism or whatever, like that's where I go back to I'm like that's where he met me. That's where he decided to meet me do you have a bible near you?
Speaker 2:um, yes, yeah, actually, yeah, right here go to romans, chapter 5 I knew, I knew it which verse while we were still sinners. Christ died for us verse 8.
Speaker 1:Read it out loud. Okay, one, one moment here. How did you know? Did we read this one the other night?
Speaker 2:No, that one's just I feel like that's been a clear illustration was like that moment and that verse are paired together in my mind. Okay, verse 8. So, but God proves his own love for us in that, while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, while you were cursing somebody, while you were an enemy in your own mind, while you had alienated yourself, he did not alienate himself. This is when he died for you, not alienate himself. This is when he died for you. So when you were hearing this idea and we talked about it, I think in the next Bible study that shame doesn't actually change us and beating ourselves up actually just keeps us in the same sin cycle. What made you get so emotional about understanding that you didn't have to live like that?
Speaker 2:I think it was exactly like the words that you said, because you said something like you don't have to. Yeah, it just completely counteracted a lie that I was believing. So you know, when, like, a lie gets busted and then it's like it almost feels like you're in yourself and you're like where do I run to? Like that's how it felt in that moment to me was like I didn't know what to do, because when you have something confronting, something that you've been living by for a while, for a long time, like then, then I had to decide like is this true? And if it is, then everything has to be different.
Speaker 1:Has that been blessing you since then?
Speaker 2:It has. It's not easy, always uh, but it's become uh, but it's become easier. It's actually it's. It's helped me, not just that moment, but just like what god has been doing in general, like, um, just help me to be more honest, because I'm like, if there's no shame in how I actually feel or think right now, then I can just be honest with God and then go from there.
Speaker 1:Man alive. You know, when kids lie, the reason that they lie is because they don't want to feel the shame. So the lie is the symptom of the shame, the shame like we don't want to feel like. And if, if you talk to your kids like, did you not pick up your clothes or did you not, well, then they're gonna lie because they don't want to feel the shame. If you remove the shame, there's a chance that you could also remove that lie.
Speaker 1:So God never shames us, he never condemns us, he teaches us, he disciples us because he loves us, because he loves us, and so he's not going to be working against himself. So for you, goodness and mercy are to follow you for the rest of your life and you will learn right. You will grow. This time next month you're going to be more mature. This time next year, more mature Like we're just growing and growing and growing. And Allie, just to see, like I don't know old Allie, my heart breaks for her. Just the confusion. My heart breaks for her, just the confusion. But whoever I have met on the Bible study and the sweetness that I just see, just your heart, that's who you've always been, that's what he created you for, from for from the foundation of the earth, and it was lost for those years but has now been found again in Christ Jesus.
Speaker 1:Amen, so just seeing how you operate is a testimony and it's a blessing to me and I'm just blown away by it. So thank you for receiving God's love.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm glad I did, because that's like the number, that's definitely the number one thing I always needed.
Speaker 1:Where are we going to go? Which alley do we want to talk to? If you could pick a time to go talk to Allie, allie do we want to talk to. If you could pick a time to go talk to Allie, which time would you pick? Because after hearing this story, we could pick a few times. There's a few different places where I'd be like, oh, you need to go talk to that girl, put your arm around her. Where would you pick the darkest moment that you would want to just go encourage? That girl.
Speaker 2:Probably like high school me. Yeah.
Speaker 1:What would you say?
Speaker 2:I would say it totally makes sense that you want to run away, that you want to run away from your family, you want to run away from the whole situation. And it makes sense because no one has ever taught you how to deal with this. No one has ever shown you how to do life and how to cope and even how to reach out for help. No one's ever shown you. So I totally get it and I hope that you do know that God sees you even when no one else sees you, and that he's always seen you and no one else will ever see you the way that God does. People will get glimpses, but if you've ever wanted to be seen and I know that you know that you've never been lost from his sight and you never will there's nothing you can do to escape God's love, and someday you will be able to see that he's always been fighting for you.
Speaker 1:Thank you for telling your story, Allie. You're a blessing.
Speaker 2:Thank you Thanks man.
Speaker 1:Just just seeing her heart, it just blows me away how good God is and how he gives us revelations of his truth, and how he gives us revelations of his truth, and this is why I love doing this and putting these episodes out. If you're living in some confusion and you need a revelation, that this prayer is for you. Father, sometimes I just I don't know what's up from down and I can't see it. I'm asking that you open my eyes, remove the confusion, show me your son, show me who he is and that I have him, and so that I can live in this freedom that you have given me.
Speaker 2:In.
Speaker 1:Jesus name, amen. Guys, we got so much stuff coming up in 2025. As we're wrapping up the year, we're going to be talking about it Internet church up until the end of the year, so check us out, come, hang with us Friday nights at 8 o'clock, central for Internet church, and it is going to be a blessing. Love y'all, love y'all, appreciate y'all. Bye.