Death to Life podcast
A podcast that tells the stories of people that used to be one way, and now are completely different, and the thing that happened in between was Jesus.
Death to Life podcast
#197 Merry Christmas: The Incarnation and Liberation from Fear
The essence of Christmas reaches deeper than the surface narrative; it's a journey into the heart of the Incarnation, revealing its profound significance for humanity. This episode unpacks how Jesus’ birth represents healing, the elimination of fear, and a transformative relationship with God that can reshape our lives and self-worth.
• Understanding how the Incarnation alters our perception of Christmas
• The theological importance of God assuming human nature
• The role of fear and its eradication through Christ's presence
• Emphasizing emotional, psychological, and physical suffering embraced by Jesus
• The promise of hope as we reflect on our identities in Christ
• Navigating life decisions free from the bondage of fear
• Celebrating the rich implications of “God with us” as a source of strength and love
Love you guys, appreciate you guys. Merry Christmas, happy holidays, happy new year!
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Yo, welcome to the death of life podcast. This episode is a little bit different. If you are listening to it the day it drops, you'd be listening to it on Christmas Day, because that's when we're dropping this episode. If you're listening to it a little afterwards, that's completely cool. But I was sitting at home the other day and I was listening to some Christmas carols as I was doing the dishes, as I'm known to do, and this lyric from oh Holy Night came through. And you know what? In Freedom, christmas carols hit different and the songwriter says long lay the world in sin and error, pining till he appeared and the soul felt its worth. And I was thinking, man, christmas has been completely different for me in freedom, because I understand, I think, why he came and I was thinking about the incarnation. I was like man. I want to know more about why it's so important. So there's only one person I could call. I sent out the bad signal.
Speaker 1:There's two people and the other one was too busy, but I've got Jonathan Leonardo on here and we're just going to spend a few minutes talking about the incarnation Emmanuel, God with us. The incarnation Emmanuel, God with us.
Speaker 2:Jonathan, when freedom hit, did Christmas hit different for you? I don't know that. If I ever thought about Christmas differently, I know that I did think about the incarnation a lot differently, so I can appreciate that.
Speaker 1:Well, tell us about it, man, give us your thoughts on it on this Christmas day.
Speaker 2:Well, my thoughts around the incarnation shifted as I dwelt was Athanasius, who was a theologian.
Speaker 2:I can't remember what century I want to say 4th century, 5th century, I can't remember where Athanasius exists, but he has a line and I think it's Athanasius. He says that that which God does not assume, he does not heal, or that which is left unassumed is unhealed. So in the positive, it would be all that which he assumes he heals. So that Jesus assumed human nature and in assuming human nature he has healed human nature in his person, so that the incarnation is a work of you can almost use the word regeneration of all of humanity in the person of Jesus. And he had to assume flesh and blood, just like us. And through that he destroys the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and that he delivers all those who, through fear of death, were subject to lifelong slavery. That's Hebrews, chapter two, right, so that he overcomes the power of death in his person by assuming human nature and he completely strips death of its power, so that not even the fear of death has a foothold in us.
Speaker 1:Man. That's a powerful idea that once he's a human being, humanity's okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like it's healed because God is now a human.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and particularly because, so to always think about it through the trajectory of the condemnation of death. I mean, see the condemnation of sin, which is death, right Like, since condemn, which is death right, like sin's condemnation is death. Sin's condemnation is not more punishment in the likeness of physical harm that one endures, like oh, you're going to get whipped right Because you are a sinner and there's more punishment to come. No, the fullness of sin, when it's fully mature, is death, right, that is the consequence. Sin when it's fully mature is death, right, that is the consequence. So that death as the fullest expression of sin's maturity, is that which has to be overcome, and it's overcome in the very body that is subject to death. For it is human bodies, made of flesh and blood, that are subject to death because they are those that were, are and have been enslaved by sin. Right, so that then jesus enters humanity, comes in the form of human nature.
Speaker 1:uh, this is romans 8. Right now, what you're?
Speaker 2:you're pretty much he's clothed in flesh and blood, and so he endures the condemnation of sin, which is death. But in enduring his condemnation he overwhelms death with his own glory, which is life itself, and has the right to life and is vindicated 1 Timothy 3.16, in the spirit, by the Father that his rulership is actually legitimate and valid. And he emerges from the throes of death by overwhelming and overcoming death itself, and he emerges as a human, but a new kind of human, the spirit human right. First Corinthians 15. But in emerging as the new kind of human, he has quote unquote regenerated humanity in and around himself. So before humanity was generated, it was begotten by Adam Right. All humans that have existed were the progeny of Adam, at least that's the historical sort of claim of having Adam and Eve be our first parents. Any human that proceeds in the lineage of all of humanity proceeds from Adam, so that the progeny of humanity sorry, the progeny of Adam is, quote unquote humanity. Well, to regenerate is to be born again to right. To regenerate, you generated anew. And now that regeneration is in the spirit, not of the flesh, because Jesus belongs to the realm of the spirit. His actual existence is in the spirit, not in the flesh, and all those who participate in his regeneration and his being born again, or in his, in his emergence through resurrection power. Right, we too are, then, now his progeny. We are his children. Uh, this is john one that, to all those who received him, he gave them the right to be called, uh, children of god. And so that the incarnation is, uh. On the one hand, you could talk about it as being a reclamation project, a regeneration project. On the other one, it speaks to the proximity in which God wants to be with us, how far he would go in order to spoil the domain of death for our sake.
Speaker 2:There are so many different levels at which the incarnation works.
Speaker 2:It also works at the level and works is a probably poor verbiage, but why? It's of such great importance, and it challenges our notions on how God operates that he would enter the human experience, the material human experience, and over to overwhelm and overcome all the deficit that sin introduced. So that, at the level of emotional suffering, he endured that, knows it. At the level of psychological torment, he knows that he's endured it. At the level of physical pain and suffering, he knows that he endured it. At the level of psychological abandonment, betrayal, he knows that he's endured it at the level of being exposed, humiliated, shamed. He knows that he's endured it at the level of actually having to grow up and go through the process of development from young child to adult. He knows that he's endured it so that, at every single level of the human experience, god has entered it in the person of Jesus, has redeemed it, has reclaimed it, has sanctified it and has healed it in the person of Jesus. And we get to participate in that fullness now through the spirit in Christ.
Speaker 1:So when I heard somebody say humanity's response to God is Jesus, because Jesus is a human, his response to God is humanity's response. Would you agree with that statement?
Speaker 2:You know I have troubles with sentences like would you agree? I knew you would, but I think I'm sympathetic, I think, to what the person is aiming towards and gesturing towards. I think more precisely, for me I would land on what 1 Corinthians 1,. We say our yes and amen back through jesus to god.
Speaker 1:Right, so that our yes is in jesus, god's yes to us is in jesus, so that, yeah, the yes of humanity is in and through jesus as I was at the christmas program last night and these kids are singing these carols and I'm thinking of the wise men showing up, the shepherds in the field and even the disciples all the way up until Jesus's death on the cross. Doesn't seem like very many people really grasped this idea of what you're saying, and it seems like even today, like Christmas is cool. Oh yeah, jesus came as a little baby and he and he he forgave me on the cross. But this is a much richer, deeper under. I mean, I don't know, it's just been different for me trying to grasp it. And then the carol oh, come, let us adore him. It means something different for me, like my heart, as I was listening to these kids last night saying I was like man if they knew and I don't even know if I know, but I know a little bit more and my heart is just amazed.
Speaker 2:In what ways has it changed for you?
Speaker 1:Because, before Jesus came to die on the cross, and this story of him, the incarnation of him coming as a, you know, the big deal is that Mary was a virgin, right, this is not a normal birth, you know. This was, this is of God. God put God in a human being born into this world and we're like, oh, wow, that's crazy. And then he came to forgive us of our sins. That's cool. But then understanding, as in first John two, cool. But then understanding, as in first John two, that he is my advocate, meaning he's the true human, he's the representative of me, of you, of anybody who's ever lived, and that started on that, you know. Oh, holy night. Um, it's much, yeah, it's, it's heavy in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, no, I hear that One of the ways in which I have thought about it has been and this is probably recent in this past it's been recent, but that Jesus came to extract fear from humanity, right, so that his incarnation, one of its salient points like something that he's trying to bring about in the project of atoning and in the project of resurrecting humanity is the extraction of fear from the human, like we weren't. Fear is a oh man, if you use that dune line, right? Uh, fear is the mind killer, right? Isn't that the line that Jessica uses for? Um, I was trying to tell Paul Atreides fear is the mind killer, but, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2:You see Hebrews chapter two, where uh, let me see, I have it actually here it says since, therefore, the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who, through fear of death, were subject to lifelong slavery.
Speaker 2:So, through fear of death, you're subject to lifelong slavery, and the way I conceive of this is that part of what the fear of death produces is an attempt to avoid death and secure your standing and or life and the way you secure your standing in your life is all too often by sinful ways. Not by sinful ways that we might think that they are completely inappropriate to the human experience appropriate to the human experience but that even in that which we think is appropriate to the human experience is often a byproduct of scarcity and fear. So, for instance, let me give you an example, right, because this is something that you'd appreciate. You love Bitcoin, right, and I'm sure you've been looking at the market lately. Right now we're recording this, five days before Christmas, and you know that Bitcoin went all the way up to like 108, came back down, I think, just yesterday after you know.
Speaker 1:You could snag some on sale.
Speaker 2:You can get some on sale right now, right After, you know, chairman Powell spooked the markets a little bit and Bitcoin's down back to like 96. Well, here's the thing. Somebody's going to say I'll get some.
Speaker 2:Right, it's on sale because, ultimately, people are still in the idea that Bitcoin's going to 100X from here, but to actually secure an investment in Bitcoin is motivated by the scarcity of maybe not having enough money later on down the line, having my money work for me through this vehicle and investment. So I'm securing my abundance in the future by investing now.
Speaker 2:But, I'm shortchanging my like I'm actually not having right now, because I'm taking some of that money and putting into this thing. Why am I going through that whole rigmarole? Why am I doing all of that? Because what's going to be my surety in the future? Some sort of financial recourse that I need to help me in my old age or to facilitate a life of retirement. Right, that's all proper to the human experience. Nobody's going to be like yo don't invest wisely, do that right, not even biblically. Yeah, invest wisely. But what does all that recognize? It recognize that I don't live in the sort of abundance that is tainted with sin and its consequences.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and as you're saying, this one of my favorite Bible verses by this love is perfected with us so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is also, so also are we in this world. There's no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. So when jesus comes to the world not to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved, uh, that's what love does. Love isn't here to condemn, it, it's here to save, and those who have the Son have life, and so we're not worried about punishment, because we actually have the eternal life that the Son promised.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the thing is that we're so prone to think of punishment within a legal framework, particularly a Western legal framework, as though it's the consequence of some behavior that runs afoul of social norms that we've codified into law. But punishment is also the consequence of life, in that life will punish you, meaning that it will discipline you. It will have negative consequences if you don't make certain choices earlier, right? So if I don't choose to steward my body in certain ways, my body will excel Like, deterioration will accelerate, and some can see that that's, that's. I'm punishing my future self by not making better choices today. I'm punishing my future financial self by not making wise financial choices today, so that our sense of punishment ought to extend as to like the logical consequence of living in a world that is absolutely sin, sick, right? Are you getting what I'm offering?
Speaker 2:I think so so that, like think about it this way, like the natural consequence of the human life is death yeah is that natural or a punishment?
Speaker 1:that is unnatural. So it's gotta be a punishment right, Because we were not built for death.
Speaker 2:But if you think about it in the context of legalities, you might say to yourself well, somebody doesn't deserve death. Right? What I'm offering is that it is a condemnation, it is a form of punishment that we exist in, in and outside of our own actions. Right, this is Romans, chapter five. Right, so that I don't want to see my future self punished in ways that I can avoid now by investing wisely. Does that make sense, so that even my aversion to future financial scarcity quote unquote punishment is appropriately mitigated? I can make that less severe by investing wisely Now.
Speaker 2:An observer looking at my actions would say this is a wise move. But internally I know that the wisdom is predicated on me not suffering in the future. That dynamic of my internal psychological recognition as to why I'm doing this in and of itself is a consequence of sin and the scarcity of the world we live in. So that when Jesus embodies humanity and restores it into abundance, he has not merely liberated us from legal punishment, he's liberated us from the condemnation of a sin, sick world that seeks to secure its future by investments now because it's trying to avoid the scarcity, ie punishment of old age or long-term irresponsibility. No, he emerges as a human that has what we would see as supra abundance forevermore in his consistent present, so that there is no need for him to go looking for more in the future because he lives in supra abundance now and forevermore in his present and that is the existence of Jesus, of Christ, always and forever.
Speaker 2:So that you and I receive that in hope through him, in the spirit, so that the fear of future suffering or the fear of future scarcity that I might correctly frame as a punishment because of my present, say financial irresponsibility, is not a framework or mindset that I ought to operate from, precisely because through the incarnation and the resurrection of Jesus, fear is extracted from my mind.
Speaker 2:That does not mean that I then I'm not responsible, stewarding the resources I have in the world today, but that my thinking and the way I see the world has to be reframed and reshaped because of the incarnation. So I live in what a scholar by the name of, I think, ann Jervis, right this great book of hers about Paul and his conception of time. She offers that for those in the flesh there is what's called death time, so that the quality of this time, qualitatively it is death time, and to be in Christ is to exist in life time and, because of the incarnation, I now live in lifetime because I am in Christ. Therefore, fear is extracted so that my conceptuality of how I relate, to say something as practical as the investments I'm making, ought not be grounded in scarcity and fear of punishment for the future or fear of scarcity for the future, but it has to be reframed through the resurrection of Christ, predicated on his incarnation that is underwritten by his complete victory over all the forces of scarcity, death and the mind killer of fear.
Speaker 1:So from the outside, looking in your money management, might look the same, yeah, but one could be from fear and one could be from the kingdom of heaven.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:In the kingdom of heaven there is no fear. We move in wisdom. So it might look the same, like I said, from the outside, but one's motive is completely different.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and this is what the little babe of the nativity ought to challenge, because it's not really the abstraction of me being legally liberated from future punishment. It's that a human exists, grounded in supra abundance, like he bodily exists, and from his life we draw our life. Right. This is 8, right Co-heirs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so as if someone's listening this on Christmas or between Christmas and New Year's and you're getting ready. The word of encouragement is God is now a human and will be a human forevermore. I mean, give us the encouragement.
Speaker 2:I'm not going to. No, the encouragement is all of that word salad. Just to say this God is with us, Emmanuel, god with us, god with us, god with us, god with us. It's an incredible, incredible thought, if you just are allowed to sit there and allow yourself to think about it for a little while. Like he's with us at every single level, every single level of the human God is with us. It's crazy.
Speaker 1:Amen. Thanks for coming on, man, and I'm going to listen to this a couple times to really try to grab onto. I think I'm getting it, but it was a blessing to hear this, so thank you for coming on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, you already know it's probably way simpler than what I'm saying. It's just. You know, I interacted with somebody that said there's two types of people in the world there's talk thinkers and think talkers. I think that, when it comes to theology, I talk through my thinking.
Speaker 1:It's all good man, and for those of you who are listening, we love you. We're glad that you've been rocking with us this year and we're looking forward to a 2025 and, like the songwriter said, oh come, let us adore him. He, he came, so the soul would know it's worth, and praise God that we have seen it through what he has done. So love you guys, appreciate you guys. Merry Christmas, happy holidays, happy new year. Love y'all, appreciate y'all, thank you.