Death to Life podcast
A podcast that tells the stories of people that used to be one way, and now are completely different, and the thing that happened in between was Jesus.
Death to Life podcast
#201 Karlo is Redeemed By The Blood of the Lamb
Karlo's transformative journey from addiction to healing illustrates the power of the gospel in restoring life and identity. He shares his struggles with guilt and the pressures of conformity in faith, while ultimately realizing the love of God transcends past failures and offers true freedom.
• Karlo's early life shaped by do's and don'ts in faith
• Struggles with identity during adolescence and peer relationships
• Facing deep-seated issues when his secret was revealed
• Understanding the difference between legalism and grace
• Healing through vulnerability and community support
• Journey towards redemption, forgiveness, and acceptance
• Embracing a new understanding of God's unconditional love
• The ongoing process of reconciliation in relationships
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The world doesn't think that the gospel can change your life, but we know that it can and that's why we want you to hear these stories, stories of transformation, stories of freedom, people getting free from sin and healed from sin because of Jesus.
Speaker 2:This is Death to Life the reality at that point is now, it's not just that I'm porn addict, is that there's more? And she's like oh, did you ever spend any money? And I said, yes, like just a hundred dollars. At that time I didn't even know how much I spent rich. I thought I had spent like five thousand dollars, like I was so out of it. I don't even know how many women I've talked to. I didn't even know when I was doing it, and she was just asking me all these questions and what ended up happening was Yo, welcome to the Debt to Life podcast.
Speaker 1:My name is Richard Young and today's episode is with my brother, carlo. Carlo is married to Ashton. She had an episode a few weeks ago and this is his part of the story. Man, there's some vulnerability here. This episode is not for kids, but you really hear how the Gospels change this guy's life, understanding that he is free from and dead to sin what that does. So this is man, it's just a blessing. Buckle up, strap in, listen to Carlo, love y'all, appreciate y'all. Um, bro, how are you? I'm good, I'm good. Did you get it, did you?
Speaker 1:get a chance to listen to Ashton's episode.
Speaker 2:I did not what he actually said. Don't listen to it.
Speaker 1:You ever heard it?
Speaker 2:No, I haven't heard it.
Speaker 1:Dean. Okay, so you're just like out here, just wild, just free, not knowing what's going on, what she talked about, uh, when you consider your story is it a typical actually you tell me where, where do you consider what you thought about the gospel, what you thought about your assurance? Where does that come from? What did it start? Start us out, man. When you're thinking about my story starting, where does it start for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it definitely has to start as a child growing up in the church and growing up in the Seventh-day Adventist denomination and being raised by parents who were fresh into the denomination and trying to understand the framework of the whole gospel and a lot of it was the do's and don'ts right, like that was my basic understanding right and wrong. What are the things that I'm supposed to do? What are the things I'm not supposed to do?
Speaker 1:How did your parents get introduced to Adventism.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so they had done some Bible studies in El Salvador. So both my parents they're immigrants and they came to this country and they did the Bible studies. They didn't commit to anything. But they came to the United States and, lo and behold, they're planning to go to a party and that party was canceled and my aunt and uncle were going to these Bible studies, these evangelistic series. How old were?
Speaker 1:your parents when they got to America.
Speaker 2:I'm not even sure. Actually they came in the 80s, so they probably were in their late 20s, early 30s probably.
Speaker 1:They have family in Southern California, yeah, so a lot of their family had already come. All of our stories, bro. My family showed up a little earlier, and when I say a little, I mean a lot earlier. The 60s they showed up, but it's because they had family, and I think their family lived in Boyle Heights, and so that's where my mom like. They moved to Boyle Heights, which is where did your family move to?
Speaker 2:My family moved to Norwalk, so they were attending Norwalk Spanish, yeah.
Speaker 1:And so they were going to go to a party and they got canceled and my tío Miguel was hosting a seminar.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like Evangelistic Series, yeah, and they accepted the message that was being preached there. And your uncle is very good at growing churches. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And for my parents, specifically my mom, it meant really doing hard work and going door knocking. That was the thing going door knocking and doing Bible studies. And she was more vocal than my dad, and when I mean my dad, she's more eloquent with her speech. Both my parents went to college in El Salvador, so they're well-educated, and my mom had the ability and the gift to really present Bible studies and make it clear and she used to use like a projector and she used to have slides and used to be a simple Bible study of what does the Bible say about the Father, what does the Bible say about the Holy Spirit. So this is how I grew up, was very systematic, very like you want to answer, you go to the Bible, type of thing. So that was the early development from my understanding of the Bible and also just there was this huge emphasis for Bible work, for missionary work. So that was like the top thing that was really elevated in my household was like the first thing is the Lord's work and with that it did stress my mom out because she was trying to always do her best and by the time I was born, which was, I believe, three years after they had been baptized, she was suffering from depression. So she had postpartum depression and just the stress of not being where she used to be and being able to go and do Bible studies and it really affected her in that and this is the area that I don't really know because I was a young child, but I'm sure that affected me of just not having my mom there for me and having to have a second mom. That was my nanny and I would call her mommy Belen, so I would have another mother. That's how I coped with.
Speaker 2:The situation at the time was developing a relationship with another woman and it was hard because she would leave, my mom will leave, and I would cry and then my nanny would come and then I would cry when she left, right, so it really created some separation anxiety there and that was kind of something that popped up there and just learning that was the thing that I wasn't aware of how much that affected me.
Speaker 2:But that was just later transferred to me of that pressure of church and I didn't take it seriously until later on in the years where the transformation of just or maybe the development of the whole gospel was, because, like the original question, I saw the development of the whole gospel was because, like the original question, I saw the development of first it was do's and don'ts and then starting to learn more about the Bible and then eventually like developing a relationship with God. And that was more towards my high school years, when I started to develop a relationship with God and Bible study was starting to become more real, more important, and I think that I was struggling in high school with making friends when did you go to high school?
Speaker 2:Was it public school? Yeah, I went to public school, yeah. So I went to public school my whole life and it was very difficult to make friends. I was always somebody who struggled making friends. I was very quiet and I am still very quiet. If I don't know you, I come off very shy.
Speaker 1:I must know you, I guess, because you've never seemed shy to me, dude. You've always seemed, and I mean we've been around each other for the total like two hours. But like on the internet I've seen you a lot and, yeah, you seem completely different than that. I guess you've just grown up, I guess.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I definitely grown up a lot and matured and started dropping my walls a little bit more, but there was always that sense of like fear of being rejected a lot and kind of. I guess that stems probably from my early development years, like I mentioned before, and in high school I was struggling a lot, making friends and just eating lunch by myself a lot and I was able to make friends but I just didn't feel like I fit in. That was another thing that I dealt with, which is fitting in. I dealt with body image as well. What was your thing in high school? Academics? That was my thing, academics, and and that was it. I didn't do any extracurriculars, but school was my thing, specifically like the sciences, the stem. You wanted to be a doctor or something. No, I wanted to be an engineer.
Speaker 1:So you did you listen to a lot of music. Were you into like?
Speaker 2:like, what were your hobbies? I didn't listen to a lot of music. I played video games, so I was very much a nerd in it what games were you playing?
Speaker 1:I was playing pokemon, I was gonna say like first person shooters, and you're like pokemon's pretty nerdy, yeah.
Speaker 2:So that gives you an idea. Right right there I'm starting to get a picture here yeah, so very quiet.
Speaker 2:I did band right, played saxophone, but that wasn't music, really wasn't my thing. I enjoyed it, but it wasn't like the top thing. But in essence it was video games and then doing church as well. That was a big thing and we had met your uncle and my parents had moved and we ended up reconnecting with your uncle and going to his church and I had already been struggling with loss by then and it was just like church was the place to work hard to deal with that guilt and shame. I'm not where I want to be, but that's the thing of Jesus loves me. I'm doing my best, I'm trying really hard to not do this thing and you were like super good kid, huh yeah.
Speaker 1:And your family revolved around church.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it revolved around church. That was a big thing. It wasn't always like that and there was a lot of double mindedness in it where there were the rules, but my parents didn't always keep the rules and it bothered me, right, they weren't always eating kosher. And parents didn't always keep the rules and it bothered me, right, they weren't always eating kosher and this wasn't always Like, you mean like eating chicken or eating like shrimp.
Speaker 1:Like what level of kosher are we?
Speaker 2:talking about Like shrimp for example Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So there was always that double-mindedness or like watching shows they shouldn't watch, and that was a thing where it bothered me that they weren't doing the right thing. And, like I said, they were very much early into the denomination and that changed over the years. Eventually they became more more strict, yeah, on themselves, but that was the thing that I grew up with. Well, we're doing this, but don't tell anybody we're doing this.
Speaker 2:So this secrecy and religion was something very common to me by the time that I was taking it on for myself, where I know I shouldn't be doing this, like this is where I'm at, and this guilt and shame is there of not wanting to tell people. Like, hey, I'm going to a porn site and I'm teaching tab school the next day. So it was very much like that and it was a place to hide. I think I felt like I belonged in church. I felt like I excelled in church. It was the realm that I did the best in. Like in school, I started struggling. I couldn't keep up with my grades, I couldn't excel in it, but church was the place that I could always go to and do well. I could always execute, I could always put on a program. I could always teach Sabbath school and that was the thing of a safe place and a place that I could escape what was happening in the real world. Yeah, it was definitely a place to escape and eventually we ended up leaving your uncle's church and going to Temple City.
Speaker 2:Did you have assurance of salvation? I didn't have assurance of salvation. It was I'm trying to understand it as how I understood it back then but my thing was like how can we be saved if we're always sinning or if we're always falling short? Falling short? And his explanation how I interpreted was that we had to be going in a certain direction for us to have that salvation. That's where our assurance was. It was actually in our works, right, because that salvation that we have should give us real faith, right? Real works.
Speaker 1:Have you ever heard of Morris Vendon? No. Okay, so Morris Vendon is this Adventist preacher that comes along in the. He becomes big in the seventies and he is preaching righteousness by faith. He believes that he got this like message from Jones and Wagner. Do you know? Jones and Wagner are yes, yeah, okay, so he got this message from Jones and Wagner, do you know?
Speaker 2:who, jones and Wagner are. Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, so he gets this message. He's the pastor at the La Sierra church when my parents were in college and I think also when my uncle was going through La Sierra.
Speaker 1:So my uncle was very influenced by Morris Vendon, and Morris Vendon is the man Like he preached the gospel through his whole life and because he's preaching righteousness by faith, people were very against him and they were sending these tapes of his sermons up and down California and people were upset. Anytime somebody preaches righteousness by faith, you know the Pharisees are going to be frustrated with it. And so Morris Venden describes assurance of salvation Like if you're in an elevator and you go up and you fall down in the elevator. Well, the elevator is still going up, yeah, even if you fall down. What you don't want to do is get off the elevator. Even if you fall down, what you don't want to do is get off the elevator. And so I think my uncle and I mean he can speak for himself.
Speaker 1:I guess one day I can talk to him about this I think he's heavily influenced in that kind of line of thinking.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can see that. So that's the thing was like, as long as I stayed in the church right, or as long as I stayed faithful to God, I was in the elevator right when I was progressing up yeah, yeah so that's where I started seeing the assurance.
Speaker 2:But the thing that was tripping me up was like the law and the emphasis, our denomination about the law and just. But then it was like I would read a verse that says if you break one point of the law, you break it all right. So I was thinking about, oh, I'm always going to mess up, I'm not going to do well, so I got to just keep trying harder, right? Keep doing my best and just rely on God that one day, by faith. Because I was buying into the last generation theology Did you know what that was? I didn't know it was.
Speaker 1:What is it? Lgt? Let me explain this. Last generation theology is this belief that Jesus had the same fallen nature as humanity and yet he did not sin. And he did it to show us that we can also not sin us, that we can also not sin. And when enough people live like he did perfectly, then he will be able to come back. That's that last generation, and so with this kind of thinking, it obviously leads to heavy legalism. We're trying to get things together for Jesus to come back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I didn't really see it as legalistic, right. I thought, oh, if you love me, keep my commandments right.
Speaker 2:So I was just there's nobody who's legalist, thinks they're legalist, right and I was like I'm not the worst right, like it's not, like I'm like full on vegan, like it gets crazy right, and I was like I'm not on the far right side, so, and it was a way for me to understand I'm not a legalist, like I love God and I'm just doing my best. But yeah, definitely, looking back on it, my relationship to God was through the law. It was through doing right and wrong and just staying with Him because I had to do the right thing. I have to follow God because that's the right thing to do. So it was very much law-based and the thing that was tripping me up, like I was saying, was that there's still works involved and it still felt very much works that had to be done for me to steward this salvation. And that was the thing that I was having a really hard time coming to and not really seeing a change in my life.
Speaker 2:To do that thing that I was told was the right thing to do, it took a lot of effort and what I wasn't seeing was like a change in my heart where that became easier. I was still struggling with lust, I would still fall into it and I wasn't seeing this change where I was like no, I don't want to do that to the point that I actually don't do it. And I was a Roman sentiment in my mind I don't want to do, I do things I do want to do, I don't do. And I thought that was a Christian experience for a lot of it and in essence, I was just like I just got to keep following the rules. I just keep doing my best and one day, by faith, jesus is going to make me into a new creation.
Speaker 2:The verse that I am a new creation, that was like I just got to keep believing that and one day, day it's going to happen. Right, one day, one day, one day it's going to happen. And that was how I would deal with that. And the thing shifted after I left your uncle's church where I was accused of being a legalist. How was that? Someone was just like bruh. I was very much against the drums and my friend told me you're coming off as a legalist.
Speaker 1:So why were you against drums?
Speaker 2:I heard so many sermons against it and it was brought up in my churches that I attended.
Speaker 1:What's the reason Like? What's the reason that they would preach against the drums? Just the African roots.
Speaker 2:I would say it was the African roots.
Speaker 1:They're racist no, what's wrong with african roots the, the pagan african roots.
Speaker 2:I would say that was the thing, oh, okay yes why just that they're africans?
Speaker 1:because they're pagan, but from african religions so if somebody who doesn't believe in God plays the trumpet, is the trumpet pagan?
Speaker 2:I mean that was okay, it was the drum.
Speaker 1:If someone who doesn't believe in God plays the organ, are we in trouble with the organ?
Speaker 2:Because the no, okay, all right. Last thing, though it was like to what extent I remember hearing a track with the drums and I was like to what extent I remember hearing a track with with the drums, and I was like really uncomfortable it was at church and just having a separate meeting with pastor and being like, oh, this isn't the type of music like we want to listen to you know what music is.
Speaker 1:I'm I'm joking about it. Obviously music's crazy powerful. Watch any movie and music isn't just like in a vacuum. When it's just music, like when it's something creepy is about to happen. There's certain chords that you play that feel like something creepy is about to happen. So music is powerful and I'm not, but it's it's not inherently sinful, like in and of the notes. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It, just it can bring sadness. There are certain chords that are sad chords. There are certain chords that are happy chords. I think the content, the lyrics, like. Sometimes people were like oh, jay-z is a part of the Illuminati, so you shouldn't listen to his music. And I'm like yo if you think him being a part of the Illuminati is the thing. That's the reason that's going to get you to stop listening to his music. Why don't you listen to any of his lyrics? Like his lyrics are filled with just self-centeredness and debauchery. But him being a part of a secret society that you don't know about, that's the thing that's going to cause you to be like I don't know about this jay z fella or that now all this stuff's coming out recently about jay z. You know what I'm saying. Like why can't we like look at it for what it is and not be like the? The beat drop on the twos and fours is from the devil, but not on the ones and threes? You know what I'm saying. I don't know.
Speaker 2:Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know, and I think the change took place in that I would listen to the actual words of a song, a Christian song, and like they were filled with good truth right.
Speaker 1:Oh, they were against the Christian drums and Christian yeah.
Speaker 2:The Christian, yeah, the Christian, yeah.
Speaker 2:So that's what I was against was bringing this pagan type of worship into God's house and feeling like I had to die on that tree.
Speaker 2:And my friend talked to me and just starting to acknowledge, okay, maybe I am overdoing it, like like one day they'll figure it out on their own, maybe it's not my responsibility to explain it to them. And over the years I loosened that, especially because I went back to more of a modern church. So I went back to Temple City after I left your uncle's church and it was different and I felt like this need that I had to get everybody back on the conservative wagon and get them to understand and believe what our church had held so dear that they weren't preaching there. And it completely failed. I completely did a bad job because it wasn't appealing and it wasn't gospel filled, to be honest, and that's why it failed. It was definitely not something that I needed to bring to that church that they needed and over time how old were you? Definitely not something that I needed to bring to that church that they needed and over time.
Speaker 1:How old were you at this time, At this point?
Speaker 2:I was like 18 at that time, hmm, and and then I just worked with the youth for a lot of years and I was a youth leader and we put on events and over the years I loosened up my thoughts about the music and we had a worship band. I participated in the worship band. I was playing the drums no, I'm just kidding, I would play guitar with the worship team and everything was a lot of fun. It was definitely doing a lot of good things in the church, putting on a lot of events for the young people to just be connected with God, and that was a way for me to find a revival, because again, I would be struggling with lust, and putting on these events would be a way for me to reconnect with God and to hear that one sermon that calls us back to revival, that says something hopeful. Right, let go and let God. Right, and I'll be like, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to let this go and I'm going to allow God to to take over my life. And just rededicating my life a lot to the Lord was one of the things that was appealing with these revivals that they will come. But the difficult thing was that, like we would do them and they would only last two weeks, right, like being on fire for the Lord. It'd be two weeks and just go back to the old habits, right.
Speaker 2:And I think that one thing was the fact that I was very much still law-based right, where it'd be like I got to do all the right things like I can't watch certain shows, I can't, uh, eat certain foods, right, and trying to live like this perfect life, because I was very much believing still like the lgt type of thing where I have to keep progressing, I have to keep growing and my works were the thing that had to look good and whenever I would fail, I'd just go back into a cycle of shame. I'd just be feeling like I was trash and not good enough and just also dealing with a lot of relationship issues like never being able to secure the girl that I was interested in and that would always leave me just depressed and sad. And just going to was like the thing that would make me happy because I would hang out with people. So it became like this social uh place as well. So it was a social place that I could hang out with my friends and also it was a place that I can do a lot of good things. That would make me feel like I was an awesome person, like I was making a difference.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Sounds like a roller coaster bro.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely. It was a roller coaster experience a lot and my thing was like I don't see, I see the people who don't end up doing well in the Bible, the ones who end up having bad experiences, are the ones who do the roller coaster. And I was like why can't I be like Paul? Or why can't I be like Daniel? They always do the right thing. Paul, after his experience of just like they were like locked in and they went for it. They never turned around. But for me it felt like I always turned around, I always went back to the same thing and it just felt like I could never measure up and I would always just pray like God changed my heart, Holy Spirit transformed my life and I would only see a temporary change. And eventually it came to a point where I finally got it right. For three months Richard, let's go, dude. For three months you want me to do it? I gave up everything. I gave up everything and I was living a righteous life in my home, Probably hovering.
Speaker 1:You weren't even walking, you were hovering around planet Earth.
Speaker 2:That's what it felt like. I felt lighter right, not listening to Jung, not watching Jung, all that stuff's good and that's the problem.
Speaker 1:Right, all that stuff is good, but if you're doing it so that you can be right with God, that inherently is legalism.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, and it definitely left me drained. I think that was like the thing, the tipping point where it left me drained, where and by that time I was probably 22, 23, maybe, and I just fell back into it. I remember I had to preach a sermon at church and I just fell back into it and just feeling shame and guilt and just giving up really like pursuing like the righteous living. I didn't leave the church or anything, but I just gave up that idea of I should stay away from certain TV shows for music and I just was okay with just being one foot in the world and one foot at church. In essence, like I was okay with that. And eventually I was open to just like going out with girls who weren't in the church. Like I was very much like I should date somebody inside the church and it ended up being like oh, there's other girls and maybe it's okay, it's not that big a deal.
Speaker 2:And I ended up dating a girl for four years and this was when I was in college and we started getting into a sexual relationship, probably like three months into the relationship and just a lot of guilt and I was still serving at my church and just this continued for four years of like guilt and shame, and I was a terrible boyfriend. We got in a lot of fights. It was a really unhealthy relationship and that's when I started realizing like, oh, there's something wrong where it comes to sex. This is not just porn, this is a full on lust issue. And I was very shameful and I just kept it in in the dark and I didn't really tell anybody about it and just I remember trying to stop and just being like, oh, we can't have sex anymore, and then the opportunity would present itself and then I would take it. So there was like this double-minded man, that'd be very difficult.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's why yeah yeah, that's why, it's for?
Speaker 2:yeah, right, absolutely, and yeah, it was just definitely um difficult as well, because she wasn't um adventist and I wanted to have something to do with her converting into Adventism.
Speaker 1:And you're like I'm blowing it because I'm doing all this stuff, and why would she want any of that? You know, when you think about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that was the weird thing was that at the time I didn't recognize that I was okay where I was living, until I had to acknowledge actually, you're not okay, this isn't living. I remember thinking everything was going right and not being happy I have a girlfriend, I'm done with school, church is going well and I'm not happy. And I remember just yelling at God and being like why can't I be happy? I just felt very empty inside and it was definitely the fact that I was just not living in integrity. I was living in secrecy and being two different people, right, and that would just kill me inside and just it was difficult to function.
Speaker 2:For sure, for sure and just yeah, like always having to wear masks in essence, right how'd you guys end up breaking up like what was the like?
Speaker 2:so we ended up breaking up because she grew up in a very strict household where she had to be the grownup as well, so she dealt with a lot of parental issues where her father was an alcoholic, so she felt like a parental figure to her siblings, both her older and younger siblings. Then, when she felt like she could be independent, she wanted to go to parties, she wanted to go to clubs and that was like the thing that I didn't want to do and it felt I want to go, like make a family and settle down. And she wanted to explore more things in the world and I didn't see that she was interested in the things of God, and that was it. I was like we're going in two different directions and I don't see that she was interested in the things of God, and that was it. I was like we're going in two different directions and I don't know about this.
Speaker 2:And when she saw that I had doubts about her being the one or like this relationship going further, she knew that it was time to end it. So she ended up actually breaking up with me in the end. I think that also showed like the fact that I wasn't willing to end the relationship. Like, even though all the flags were up and it was like pretty clear that this wasn't going to work out, like I kept holding on, like hoping it would and like trying to fix it and the reality was like it wasn't going to fix. So I was actually happy that she broke up, cause I felt like like I failed if I had broken up the relationship. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I was definitely sad afterwards and definitely feeling depressed. But then this was like the new start, where I was like this time I'm going to get everything right, I'm going to find a girlfriend, I'm going to be pure in the relationship and a girlfriend right now, dog. And what ends up happening is there's this worldwide pandemic that takes place.
Speaker 1:Oh, and perfect timing. Now I'm out, it's 2020 january. What could go wrong? Wait, what? What month did you guys break up? We broke up and you broke up. So you're like perfect, I'm free as a bird. And then they're like there's this covet 19 out of the wuhan area of china. Shouldn't be a big issue, just wanted to give you a heads up. And you're like I'm not worried about that. New year, new me.
Speaker 2:Yes, I definitely had that mentality and I remember going to church I think a couple of weeks after we had broken up, and I heard this message about a butterfly and how the caterpillar has to struggle through the cocoon for it to become a butterfly. In doing that, it releases fluids that strengthen its wings, so it encouraged me through the struggle, you're actually going to be able to grow Like a Romans 5 type thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the Lord has love out into you and you're growing and that sort of thing, and I think that was like a thing where it's you got love out into you and you're growing and that's yeah, and I think that was like a thing where it's you gotta pump the brakes because you're trying to jump into a relationship and it's you are, you're just trying to escape. How old were you in 2020?
Speaker 2:I was probably 27 27 okay yeah, and surely not the next day after I heard that message, Ashton, Ashton, and at the time we're working to put on a young adult church plant and this. I just had started with a church plant and she just came to check it out for the first time and we have a team meeting and I sat across from her this is my first time meeting her and introduced myself.
Speaker 1:And you're like yo, she's dope.
Speaker 2:Exactly. Yeah. I thought, oh, she's pretty and who is this girl? And then I was like, okay, I can't jump, but I'm going to just wait and see what happens. That's what I was thinking. I was like, who is this person? Oh, maybe they hang out. I was like, who is this person? Oh, maybe they hang out. And the next week everything gets shut down. So the pandemic, yeah. So I was in for 30 minutes and then or an hour and next thing I know is I'm not seeing her for a while. Yeah, and during the pandemic time.
Speaker 2:It was definitely difficult because church was taken away and I started doing still online online dating and chatting with people and I liked it a lot.
Speaker 2:I liked just being able to talk to people and feeling that rush of somebody accepting me and swiping on me and it was definitely.
Speaker 2:I think, something that realized now, that I realized was like the addiction of being wanted right or desire to be wanted, was there and it was continued to be used throughout the pandemic time and eventually things started opening up and I was very uncertain about dating Ashton because we're in the same friend group and one of the things was like I didn't want the relationship not to work out if I try to go for it, because then it would be awkward and we're in the same friend group and it can get wonky there.
Speaker 2:So I was very much like playing it cool, trying not to make it seem like I liked her too much and it was definitely frustrating for her and we would talk about church things and just how to make the church plant better, and it just affirmed that I wanted to date her because she was so much about helping out at church and a good person and eventually we ended up going on a date and we hit it off and start things started moving pretty fast because we ended up getting engaged like eight months after we started dating and we got married.
Speaker 1:You're like four years in this crazy relationship breakup. Meet a girl the next day, eight months later, you're getting married, won't he do it?
Speaker 2:there, there's a year. There's a year in between. You have to remember there's a year. Oh yeah, yeah, my bad, my bad, right. So? So, even though I met the girl, I didn't start dating her until a year after I'm I'm teasing you a little bit um, yeah, but it it felt like it was a match made in heaven.
Speaker 2:And I did tell her about not being a virgin and sleeping with my ex and she was very much taken back by that because I waited right before I popped the question. So we were dating for like probably six months, that's a bold move.
Speaker 1:six, that's a. That's a bold move, like that's kind of information you gotta you you want to know a little bit ahead of time, right, yeah, but you were like I'm gonna risk it and if it keeps going, then you were nervous, huh yeah, I was nervous yeah yeah, sometimes if you don't get those cards on the table pretty quick, then they'll feel like you were holding something back or something.
Speaker 2:And she did feel that way. She felt the way the relationship was going and how much she had opened up that I should have shared that information with her. And even I didn't share that I struggled with porn. I didn't share that Because I thought, oh, I'm going to figure that this out, I don't want to expose myself in that area.
Speaker 1:For sure, for sure.
Speaker 2:And eventually we ended up getting married and it was a small ceremony because the pandemic kept it really small and I know some people were hurt by that and definitely just changed the dynamic of a lot of friendships.
Speaker 1:So a lot of pandemic did a lot of stuff, bro. Pandemic did a lot of stuff out here yes, yeah for sure.
Speaker 2:It definitely messed up a lot of things and I don't know if it just emphasized also the way that certain relationships were, or there was like an expectation for me to behave a certain way. Sure, and I think that's the thing that really bothered me was like Carla was the reliable one, carla was going to do the right thing and that I didn't come through. I think they were like what is going on here? Are we not friends? And I think there's a part of me that was just like felt like people took advantage of me a lot and that I was okay not having them at my wedding Because of that. There was an expectation like they need to be there and I think there was a little bit of resentment that came from that. And in our marriage when we started, there was a lot of issues. I was very much I was 27 and still living with my parents, so there was some deep relationship to them and always seeing them as doing the right thing and good people and people of God. And Ashton saw it differently.
Speaker 1:She started seeing like some cracks in this pretty picture that, trying to do things the way your parents did them. Yeah, in this pretty picture that trying to do things the way your parents did them. Yeah, bro, you and me are like, we're both solid orange, southern California. Dude, that's the exact thing I did. It did not go well.
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, I listened to your podcast and you're like that's me, that's me, right. Oh, what was the the thing? I know the way. That was what you said. I know that we have one and and I was like my parents are they're still together, they're always working as a team.
Speaker 2:They made it through this country, um, as immigrants right, the way they did it, that's how we should do it, and it was causing a lot of problems, and it was the same for ashton, but I think me, being the man, felt like I had to make sure it was done this way You're going to yield to me type thing and it exposed a lot of codependency that I had with my parents and this feeling of like whenever things got difficult, I can rely on them and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, but I think that I wasn't willing to cut the ties in a way so that I can actually grow.
Speaker 2:It was hindering me from actually growing and that was a difficult thing, and I was trying to create boundaries with my parents and it would create resentment towards Ashton, where it'd be like I wouldn't create boundaries with my parents and it would create resentment towards Ashton, where it would be like I wouldn't feel comfortable visiting my parents because we would be talking in Spanish the entire time and I would include Ashton and then afterwards we would get in a fight. Ashton just didn't feel included in my family and she was like, why don't you make an effort to try to include me in conversations? And for me it was like showing respect to my parents that I was talking in Spanish. I don't talk to them in English and it was just weird. And I think it was also like this thing of being a second, first generation American, of still having that connection with them. So there's a lot of cultural things, even though Ashton also has some Hispanic in her.
Speaker 1:It was I think, oh, this is eerie. This is like literally Natalie and myself. Natalie, I'm sure, has more Hispanic in her than maybe Ashton has more, but Natalie has some Hispanic, like I would speak to my parents or my mom in Spanish in front of her. This is, it's creepy, dude. We're the same guy, but how did you guys start figuring some of this stuff out? I?
Speaker 2:think we didn't. That's the thing we want. We're waiting on that. We're trying to put bandages like even the boundaries themselves were bandages, because I wasn't being honest with her, like I would hide things, I would struggle being upfront of how my parents did certain things, and she'll find out and be like, oh, what is this? And there was just a lot of secrets. And there was just a lot of secrets and I think it really exposed me and I didn't like that and I didn't like it that she was holding that against me, that it had exposed me.
Speaker 1:All right, we're going to take a real quick break from the podcast. I'm going to bring on my sister, Kelly. Kelly, how long is it that you've been rocking with Good Gospel? About five years. Five years and what has Good Gospel done? I mean, has it changed your life?
Speaker 4:It has. It's set me free, because now I know that I am a beloved daughter of God and whom he is well pleased, and I can live that out knowing that I'm enough.
Speaker 1:You've decided to partner with us and give up of your finances to keep this movement going forward. Why is that important to you?
Speaker 4:Because of the difference it's made in my life and the lives of so many others, and just knowing that God is using this ministry to do big things for his kingdom.
Speaker 1:Oh, I just want to thank you and if you are listening and you want to partner with us moving forward, you can go to loverealityorg slash give that's loverealityorg slash give and you can help us keep doing this. We really believe and I know you've heard me say it that if we keep preaching the gospel, we're never going to run out of podcast episodes, because there's always going to be people going from death to life. So, loverealityorg slash give and you can partner with us moving forward. Thanks so much. Oh for sure, Like family stuff, man, it's so deep.
Speaker 1:And so you guys are going through this, you're trying to navigate it. It's not easy. So then what happened?
Speaker 2:So what ends up happening is I started looking out for affirmation somewhere else and I start visiting chat rooms, type things and start participating in cyber infidelity, start talking to women and paying them for attention and for pictures and stuff and sexing with them. And there's guilt and shame, as always, and there's a desire to stop knowing that these women don't care about you and all they want is your money. And I can't stop. I like the attention. I like them talking to me and participating in this thing that I shouldn't if that makes sense, right? Like this feeling of being a bad boy and during this, I'm just mad that people found out like how can you get? How could I have gotten this bad? I've been praying for years for God to release me from my porn addiction and now I'm talking to women online and just feeling hopeless and just not knowing what to do.
Speaker 2:Just examples in life of just people living in secret sin and it always coming back to bite them and, in some cases, like death being a thing and thinking like there's no way I can expose myself I'd rather die than expose myself and thinking that's going to be my end. It's going to be death. I don't want my parents to know this. I don't want my church community to know this. I don't want them to know. The real Carlo and that was the thing that this was the real Carlo to me it's the same was like the person. You are in the dark, that's who you are.
Speaker 2:That's who you really are, and I wanted to be the other guy right, I wanted to be the guy at church who showed up and was the superhero and who was always there to help people our denomination of like the investigative judgment, and just being like, oh dude, you better be praying like every time, like for forgiveness, and just being like am I ever going to go to the point where I'm actually like okay with this, to the point I feel no guilt and shame and just like this is just who I am. Right.
Speaker 2:It doesn't matter, jesus cannot call me out of this. I'm going to. I'm going to stick to this and take it to death and just hold on to my sin and cherish it. And just thinking like this is the warning that people give right To let go of your sins, and I cannot let go of this lust. It's going with me and eventually I think it was probably like six months of participating in this, spending money and I spent around like $2,000. Híjole.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I cannot stop. I will continue to participate in this and just be like what the heck am I doing? I remember it was like an out-of-body experience where I'll be like I have to stop, I don't have money to spend, and I couldn't stop. And what ended up happening is I had looked at some porn in the morning because it came to the point of it was a drug. It was like an upper where I would look at some in the morning to to feel like awake, to stimulate my brain, and I have looked at some and I closed the window. But there was a pop-up window and Ashton I left my phone down on the bed and Ashton actually picked it up and looked at it and she was like what is that?
Speaker 1:And you're like weird virus.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was definitely panicking, not knowing what to do, just like really high anxiety, just like my heart was like high anxiety, just like my heart was like, and she was really angry. And I told her, oh, I looked at some and not really knowing what to say, because it's just going to be lies, whatever comes out of my mouth, and trying to just come up with something. And the reality at that point is now, it's not just that I'm a porn addict, it's that there's more right, there's a lot more. And she's like did you ever spend any money? And I said, yes, like just $100. And at that time I didn't even know how much I spent Rich. I thought I had spent like $5,000 on everything, had spent like $5,000 on everything.
Speaker 1:Mercy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was so out of it that I did not even know how much I had used up and I was like, oh shoot, I don't even know how much to spend. I don't even know how many women I've talked to. Yeah, it was just like out of control that I didn't even know what when I was doing it and she was just asking me all these questions and what ended up happening was she told me, call our pastor, our, our associate slash youth and young adult pastor, and call your friend, a close friend at work, and talk to somebody, figure this out. And, as you and I don't know how much, ashton talked about this in her podcast, but her father dealt a lot with substance abuse and it was we're not doing, I'm not doing this again. I'm not dealing with an addict. Again, the lying right. She did not want to do this again and she was like you got to get in, a, find help.
Speaker 2:And I ended up talking to my friend and again, nobody knows about talking to women online. And my friend, he's very encouraging and he tells me like, hey, I struggle with this too, and he hadn't opened up about this before. And he tells me like, hey, I struggle with this too and he hadn't opened up about this before. And he tells me like oh, I struggle with this too. And I felt a little bit more relief and I went with his story, actually stole his story, and was like yeah, I struggle with this. Time to time it's like a seasonal thing and I took his story and I took it to my pastor and he recommended that I take some time off and he would have me back in leadership in a couple months and then Ashton was just trying to understand everything.
Speaker 2:She talked to a coworker. They encouraged her to forgive me and to give me another chance and she was asking me a lot of questions. She was asking me about the money, Like why did I spend money if it's free?
Speaker 1:And I started coming up with a good question. When you think about it, it's a good question, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I was like, oh there's, there was these things where I could get exclusive talking to women and I opened up a little bit about that. She was like what, You're talking to women?
Speaker 1:Yeah, like her prying into this is just like her getting stabbed more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, yeah, it's tough man.
Speaker 2:It was definitely difficult to talk to her and there's a lot of lies. I could not be honest with her. There's a lot of fear. I could not be honest with her. There's a lot of fear, like how much money you spend. And I went back next day to work and I talked to my friend again and I told him dude, I cannot tell the truth. There's more, there's a lot more, and I don't know what to do. And the bio verse that came to mind was the truth shall set you free, johnny. And this just shows, like, how bad my theology was. Like that's not what the verse is talking about. Right, like the truth.
Speaker 1:That Jesus, by the way that's not about like the truth that you spent $2,000 on a porn site. That's not the truth. That will set you free.
Speaker 2:Right, but that's what I truth. That will set you free, right, but that's what I thought it meant, right, like the truth set you free and it's all. There's more. And after I talked to him he was like dude, you have to be honest. If you're gonna get out of this, you have to tell the truth. So I end up telling my path, talking to my pastor afterwards and I tell him there's more. Actually, I haven't been struggling seasonally. This is a lot more than seasonally. This is habitual, a lot, and there's more.
Speaker 2:Like I've been talking to women online for money and there is an account and everything that I have. And I tell Ashton that oh hey, I have an account, I haven't deleted it. I just panicked and just deleted the card and I ended up having my pastor delete the account and Ashton is just really hurt by it and she's asking me all these questions like when we're using it. We're using it when we were on an anniversary, we're using it when we were at my grandparents' house, we're using it at church, we're using it on Sabbath. So all these times that are sacred, right or special to her come into question, right where we're using it.
Speaker 2:And that was really difficult to answer Eventually, like I told her the truth, she kept bringing up the same questions Are you lying, is that true? And I end up disclosing, I think, everything, if I'm mistaken, just through some periods. I think of a couple months of just disclosing everything and getting help, seeing an SA therapist that's a sexual addiction therapist going to SA as well, sexaholics Anonymous and also signing up for a men's group as well that their specialty is sexual addiction called pure desires as well. And that was really good stuff, to be honest, just being able to start making connections of all the woundedness that I talked about, the relationships down to my mom's postpartum depression. All those things are brokenness and woundedness that that affects us. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right In this fallen world and and being able to deal with it without shame and guilt. And through that one of the things, or through the experience one of the things, was like getting getting right with God and sadly, the only way that I understood that still was like doing all the right things. Like this time I'm going to get it right. This time I'm going to stop watching all the shows. You got to be only listening to the Bible or spiritual shows, and one of the shows that I started listening to was the Move with Justin Koo. How'd you come across it?
Speaker 2:J Ku has been in my circle because his father went to Temple City or goes to Temple City, still goes to Temple City, and that's where I met J Ku. He came preaching one time and I just met, like we crossed paths several times but we didn't really talk, like I played football with him, like he was a quarterback, I think maybe his brother, but we've intermingled um but we weren't close and I you just knew him like as that christian vlogger and that he had contact yeah, and I was close to his cousin as well.
Speaker 2:She was at temple city too, so I knew him and he was a poster boy for sure. To me he was like an aspiration of being like him, right, but more of a smaller scale, like at my church, versus going all over the place, and I started listening to him and it was funny because I always would see him and it would be like I should listen to that Instead of watching this. I should listen to Justin Ku and I started listening to him and Jonathan of watching this. I should listen to Justin Koo and I started listening to him and Jonathan talk about the book of Hebrews and it was really interesting the fact that they were going verse to verse, because I was very much of a jumping proof texting type of person to study right Versus going through a whole book of the Bible. It was different and I end up hearing them talk a lot about lust without any shame or guilt.
Speaker 2:I see Tyler Morrison Is his name. Tyler Morrison Morrison. Yeah, okay, he is on as a guest and he talks about his experience a little bit, and Eddie Cornejo is also a guest on this podcast and I'm like, oh, these men have all struggled with this and specifically Eddie's story kind of perked up my ears because he dealt with infidelity and I talked with Ashton about it. And then she shared with me Justin Koo's Freedom Post from porn and how he struggled with it for years and I think seeing that as somebody like him being in the spotlight, like being able to open up about that, uh was very encouraging, right, because to me that would be the most difficult thing to do. Right. To me it was like I'd rather die than do that. And she had shared with me about internet church and just how they have that Bible study.
Speaker 2:And then I started looking at the Wave 1 videos and they were talking about what's your relationship to sin? And they said some weird things like, oh, it doesn't exist, I'm free from it. And I was like what are you talking about? Are you saying you did not sin?
Speaker 2:I didn't really understand what it was at first and I watched the series the Wave One series and I was like, oh, this is good stuff. And then I was it sounded good. But I was like, but is that what the Bible says? Because this doesn't sound like anything I heard growing up. But is that what the Bible says, because this doesn't sound like anything I heard growing up, or it sounded like some parts, but just like different or to a different extent, and I don't think I fully understood everything. But one thing that I took from it was assurance of salvation. There was a pastor who told me this is when I was in my college years and I forgot to mention this but that the bible, right, the assurance we can look at john 3, 16 right for god, so loved the world that whoever believes in his son oh man, I just butchered it, richard the most famous bible verse ever I don't for god's love the world that he gave his only god will not perish.
Speaker 2:Relax in life, all right. Thanks, rich yeah, it's easier when someone says it, because then you can just and you assurance. That gave me assurance. Yeah, because he was like where's the law? He said where's the law in that? Oh mercy right and I wrestled with that and I was like he's right and it came back to that. But I think the thing that I wasn't cutting off was this thing where I had to steward the salvation still so I had this idea you were believing that salvation would come.
Speaker 1:But the bible is saying salvation is in the person of Jesus Christ. Yes exactly that you have salvation.
Speaker 2:Yes. So that's where I started. Seeing was like I have the salvation in Jesus, but I can't let go of him. And the thing was like as long as I keep participating in my sin, I'm letting go of him. So my assurance was really like Jesus, but as long as I don't participate in X, y and Z I think that's what it ended up involving. And now you're telling me like my participation in my sin does not disqualify me from salvation. Am I saying that?
Speaker 1:right. My participation in sin does not disqualify me from salvation. Like when people say it, like that, it sounds wonky. It sounds like the truth is that you didn't get salvation because you stopped participating in sin. Yes, exactly, you got salvation because you believed in Jesus Christ.
Speaker 2:Amen.
Speaker 1:As the son of God.
Speaker 1:Therefore, stop participating in sin things and if you do sin, you have an advocate with god, jesus christ, the righteous. Should you participate in sin? That grace may abound. By no means. How can we who died to sin still live in it? Okay, so people want to make it like this in or out type deal. Yes, exactly, but that's not how the bible says it. The bible is counseling us and teaching us. It's like sin is not like when you sin. Your problem isn't god. Yeah, right, your problem is that sin, like all that sin, that money that went down the toilet, that relationship between you and ashton that was hurt by it. Like, did it satisfy? Did it show up like you thought it would? No, it's just, it wasn't good, it was bad. But we think, oh, our problem isn't that stuff, that death that you were living in. It's now God is kicking me out. No, god came to save you from that stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, and that was the thing of knowing that God loved me and he wasn't going to let go of me, no, that he was faithful. And I just remember seeing my in in this room and just feeling you've done too much damage, like you should end your life, and just hearing the Holy Spirit be like no, you're loved. And just hearing the holy spirit. Be like.
Speaker 2:No, you're loved like you're worth it and like you are secured, and just being so happy, and that's that was the moment that I found freedom in christ. And I don't think I fully understood all the videos, all the stuff you guys were preaching.
Speaker 1:Bro, it takes a minute. Bro, it's theologically dense man it is. There is a lot in there and I didn't understand. I didn't understand Romans 7 until the year after I got free. I was just like, what is that about anyway? But, and we're growing in understanding every day. I do know that I'm free, I do know that I have an advocate with God, jesus Christ the righteous, and I'm just growing in understanding how to walk this thing out Right, and that's we encourage each other in that, because we've been taught in a wrong home and so now the body of Christ is here encouraging each other in in the truth. So did you understand all this stuff before I met you, when, when I went out there to preach, and I guess it was July?
Speaker 2:I think it was partial. It was partial where I was trying to put it on and I think I really didn't understand the forgiveness. That was difficult to comprehend, that God had forgiven us already, because I was very much thinking like sanctuary and just every time you sin you had to slay a lamb. So it was very much of every time I sin I have to acknowledge it and ask for forgiveness. And then not fully understanding that Jesus actually did that already and he already initiated the forgiveness and I just have to receive it. And also there was some other theological stuff that I had grown up hearing where forgiveness was very much of it had to be accounted for. Sin had to be accounted for in a very exacting way. Right, that was difficult. But then the Bible verses I represented, it made sense. But then the Bible verses that were presented, it made sense.
Speaker 2:And also the idea of forgiving someone before they ask if we can do it, like why can't God do it? Because I've seen people do it. I've seen people be like I forgive you, like without them asking. But then somehow, magically, god has to be more just right In some crazy way, like be more just right In some crazy way like that's justice, right. There has to be some sort of legality to it, right? And I was like, wait, that's different, like it isn't about legality, like I'm not seeing that anymore, like I'm seeing a loving father who cares for me and wants the best for me, and if I trip and fall, like he's still there for me, ready to pick me up.
Speaker 1:So, as you're growing in this, how was the relationship with Ashton?
Speaker 2:It started getting better. It started getting better. She forgave me, I think, the first day. Now I didn't understand it because to me it was like I don't feel forgiven because you're still mad at me. So I also didn't really comprehend the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation. So, like Ashton forgave me, but she was still trying to reconcile with me and that was the thing of this process was one of reconciliation and me learning to a lot about some of the triggers as well, like why I went down the way I did and being able to just be there for her and being able to take care of her, ensure that I cared for her and that I did love her as well. So it was definitely a process of me learning to be patient and learning how to be a husband as well. And there was a lot of good tools as well good ways of looking at life and a marriage as well, and just practicing forgiveness, practicing being in Christ and claiming his promises as well of what I already have in him through him.
Speaker 1:I want to. I want to have both of you guys on and talk about when you guys went to Hawaii and then what happened in 2024. So let's, let's save that for the next, when I have both of you guys on together. But as you, you know, in the middle of 2023, we're gathering all of this truth and you say, like God set you free in that room. Say, like god set you free in that room. If you were to go back to when this guy was wanting to hurt himself and just believe that it was all over and he'd been living a lie for so long, and all the money and all the regret, if you ran into this dude now and you could put your arm around him, how would you counsel this guy?
Speaker 2:I would tell him that he's loved, that that's not him, that's not what he was made for, and that God loves him and he's holding on to him. Even if he doesn't realize it, god's like right there, holding on to him.
Speaker 1:It gets. It's so simple sometimes, but so hard for us to believe Luther's wife, Martin Luther's wife. One day she dressed up in all of this black and he was like, why are you dressed up in black? And she was like, well, the way you've been worrying about stuff, I thought that God must have died. So I'm wearing black because God must be dead, because he's not going to take care of us anymore.
Speaker 1:And he realized, oh, she's clowning me right now because of my unbelief. And if the Bible says that God loves us and the enemy is just lying so much, saying, no, we've done too much, man, it's so crazy how it just gets right to the bottom. You're loved. That's what you would tell it, like. God does love you, and so many times. That's the thing that we need to hear. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And it makes all the difference. Carlo, I've been seeing your life. You've been a testimony to us, you've been a testimony to me, you've encouraged me, I've had a chance to encourage you and just seeing what's going on, man, I'm just seeing the fruit of the Spirit and I'm excited to hear you and Ashton tell the story of what's going on. Man, I'm just seeing the fruit of the spirit and I'm excited to hear you and Ashton tell the story of what's happening, because I just see you guys growing and growing in your faith. Any message to somebody out there right now that's in the same predicament that you were in, just like money down the toilet, talking to people, not just looking at stuff down the toilet, talking to people, not just looking at stuff what would you say to them?
Speaker 2:I'll tell them that they're loved, that Christ has no guilt or shame for them, there's no combination in him, and that you can come to the light. It is safe, you're loved and he'll take care of you. Amen.
Speaker 1:Thank you for sharing your story, bro. Looking forward to hearing the rest of it.
Speaker 2:Thanks.
Speaker 1:Rich. Yeah, if this is where you are at, if you are in the same situation that Carlo was in, just not understanding why you're doing it, you're out of control. Our prayer is that you receive the truth of what the gospel has done. So this is for you Father please reveal how you have actually died and we have died with you through Jesus Christ, that he condemned sin in his body when he died and when he rose, he rose with newness of life and therefore we have newness of life, so we can walk the way we want to walk. Thank you that this was true for Carlo. Thank you that it's true for anybody that believes in you. We pray these things in Jesus's name, Amen. All right, you guys, Don't forget to join us Monday nights for the Death's Life Bible Study. It's every Monday night at 8 o'clock Central where we get to just encourage each other and stir each other up into good work. So see you guys Monday nights at 8 o'clock Central. Thanks Bye.