Death to Life podcast
A podcast that tells the stories of people that used to be one way, and now are completely different, and the thing that happened in between was Jesus.
Death to Life podcast
#202 - Jesus and Therapy with Dr. Savana Williams
When was the last time you reevaluated the balance between your faith and mental well-being? Join us as we sit down with Dr. Savana Williams, a remarkable psychologist who turned her personal trials into triumphs, with a story starting from an emotionally abusive relationship and leading to a fulfilling career. Dr. Williams shares her transformative journey and how profound experiences, like a dream interpretation during college, redefined her understanding of the powerful synergy between faith and therapy.
Alongside pastor and speaker Jonathan Leonardo, we unpack the complex relationship between spiritual beliefs and therapeutic practices, challenging the idea that they are mutually exclusive. Together, we explore pivotal moments in Dr. Williams' life, such as insights from a Jamaican Adventist professor, which shaped her belief that Christianity and psychology can intertwine harmoniously. As we journey through stories of personal and spiritual growth, discover how embracing a mindset of abundance rather than scarcity can reshape your perspective on life's challenges.
Our conversation uncovers the empowering concept of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) from a faith-based perspective, advocating for actions aligned with personal values and the gospel. We discuss practical strategies for cultivating gratitude and mindfulness, helping listeners harness their inherent strength and divine potential. This episode is your invitation to recognize the profound impact of aligning faith with therapy, offering heartfelt reflections and practical insights for anyone seeking to enhance their spiritual and emotional well-being.
💰 DONATE & SUPPORT our Ministry: lovereality.org/give
👍 LIKE us on Facebook: / alovereality
📷 FOLLOW us on Instagram: / riyoung31
📚 LEARN more at our site: lovereality.org
Download the Love Reality app. Available in the App Store & Google Play.
Yo, what's good, everybody. You're tuned into another episode of the Death to Life podcast, where we dive into the raw, unfiltered stories of transformation and the power of Jesus to rewrite the narrative. My name is Richard Young, and today we got a heavyweight conversation lined up, one that'll make you pause and reflect and maybe even rethink how you approach healing. Pause and reflect and maybe even rethink how you approach healing. Today, I'm joined by a couple phenomenal people Dr Savannah Williams she's a psychologist whose story is a mix of grit and grace and God's just love and guidance. And then we have Jonathan Leonardo, speaker, pastor, and you know the heart behind Love Reality.
Speaker 1:Together, they are going to unpack a topic that hits close to home for so many of us how do faith and therapy intersect, and where do we find Jesus in the middle of our mental health struggles? Now, here's why you're going to want to stick around. Dr Savannah brings us into her journey how an emotionally abusive relationship led her to psychology and how a fog of confusion lifted when she embraced the truth about her identity. She takes us through dreams, inner battles and the aha moments that shaped her calling to help others. She also shares how perspective on therapy and faith shifted as she reconnected with Jesus, realizing they're not opposites but partners in healing.
Speaker 1:Jonathan comes in hot with the gospel lens, challenging us to think about freedom, not just from sin, but from the lies that keep us bound, and together they're going to tackle these big questions. What does it mean to be whole? How do we reconcile the world's view of self-help with transformation and the gospel? What does it look like to live in abundance instead of scarcity? This episode is for anyone who's felt stuck, anyone who's wondered if Jesus and therapy can coexist, anyone who's searching for a way to align their spiritual and emotional health. It's practical, it's real and it's packed with insights that will meet you where you are. So lean in, because this isn't just a conversation. It's an invitation to see how Jesus meets us in our mess and calls us into freedom. Buckle up, strap in Love y'all, appreciate y'all. Let's get into it.
Speaker 3:So, dr Savannah Williams, the question is then why therapy, why counseling, why this area of interest to you?
Speaker 4:So it wasn't originally. I always wanted to work in the medical field. When I was in high school, Grey's Anatomy was like a really big thing.
Speaker 4:So I was like I know it's still going. I fell off the wagon a very long time ago but, um, I wanted to be a surgeon. I thought that was so cool and so I started like a good Adventist girl. I declared my major as nursing and, um, and then I changed it a couple of times and blah, blah, blah. I thought I was going to do pre-med times and blah, blah, blah, I thought I was going to do pre-med.
Speaker 4:And then my sophomore year of college I was in this like really emotionally abusive relationship. I wasn't able to acknowledge it as being that at the time, but I like wanted to drop out of school. I wanted to do cosmetology. I like was going to. You know, I think I was taking like nine credit hours because I had full, fully committed to like dropping out.
Speaker 4:But one of the classes I was taking was an intro psychology course and the professor was really big into dreams and like dream meanings and like dream interpretations. And ever since I had gotten into this relationship I was having these recurrent dreams that were all like very similar, and so I just was kind of curious like what he would say about them. I just was sort of intrigued. So I met with him outside of class and like kind of asked him, you know about this thing, and anyways, he kind of took me under his wing and really was the only person probably in my life at that point in time who could comfortably have challenged me on this relationship and been like, what are you doing?
Speaker 4:And so he kind of like counseled me and mentored me throughout this experience and then in the summer after my sophomore year, I was able to end that relationship with considerable amount of like physical distance, um, and it was almost like when I came out of that relationship, I came out of this fog, like I was in this total brain fog almost of like not knowing who I was and what was up from down. And as soon as I ended it, it was like that fog was lifted and what was up from down, and as soon as I ended it, it was like that fog was lifted and I was embodied and like conscious and kind of back to like my normal self. And so I was just fascinated by that whole experience and and yeah, and so then that's what really propelled me to studying psychology and feeling like I wanted to work with other people who were in similar situations and just learn more about the whole thing.
Speaker 3:Well listen, I'm fascinated about this idea, about this dream. I knew you would be. Oh yeah, please, if you don't mind, tell us more. I mean, how often were they? Did they stop after you broke up? Were they oppressive? Were they insightful?
Speaker 4:they were insightful. Yeah, so there was one. I I was an avid journaler at this time and I have kept all of my journals, so, um, there was one specifically that I was really fascinated by. So it was like I was I dove underwater in this stream and I found this cave, and when I entered into the cave I could breathe. So it was like there was air in it, and if you study dream meanings, which you know, it's a little woo-woo. So there's some people who are kind of like, not into it.
Speaker 3:Don't worry. My baseline is that a homeless Jewish carpenter is the universal king of all that has ever existed.
Speaker 4:We're all about the woo-woo, yeah, yeah. So within dreams, most of the time, water is significant in terms of instability, and so in this dream, when I come into this cave, I saw a mom in this little blonde-haired, blue-eyed, like two or three-year-old, and in the dream I was like hiding in this cave. I could see the mom interacting with this little girl and I had this like desire and urge to like babysit or like watch this child, but I knew that the mom would see me and like outcast me, and so I was hiding. And then when the girl the like little girl turned and looked at me and so I was hiding. And then when the girl the like little girl turned and looked at me and I said I wish I could babysit you, and then the mom saw me and kicked me out and then I like went back into the water. So, but I had this dream like so many times. And the reason why I want to talk to the professor- the same exact dream yes, the same, exact dream.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 4:Because it was so vivid. Like you know, sometimes you have dreams and you're like what was that? And it was like I knew exactly what it was. Anyway. So then, as I like, throughout the process of therapy and counseling and talking about it, it was like this personification of like, obviously, the young girl being me and and my being this outcast, like being in this situation where I knew I shouldn't have been, and then seeing this little innocent version of myself and and saying, like wanting to babysit you. That was sort of like the interpretation of like I want to nurture you and like help you to make these decisions, but like also knowing that the decisions that I'm making are not appropriate for this young child, and so then being thrown back into this, like instability, because of my own conscious choices and decisions. Anyway, so it was that.
Speaker 4:And then, once I ended this relationship, I had a lot of dreams about with fire, like being in the woods and like fire destroying the woods. But all of that is about like renewal and like a new opportunity and being able to like burn down what has happened and then start fresh where, like, there's new growth and new perspective. So that's what really like brought me into psychology because it's so interesting. I just thought it was. I could have talked about it all day. I thought it was so fascinating.
Speaker 3:I'm so fascinated by this right now so I could see the pull like wait, hold on. What does that mean? How does that work? Tell me, yeah, yeah. So then, at this time you've come out of this relationship. You have had these dreams. Now, the interpretation of these dreams as you've offered them, is this something that your uh professor is walking you through?
Speaker 4:so, yes, yes, and Like he would like offer up. You know water can mean instability. Does that feel significant for you? Like you know, dreams are very personal, in the sense that they have the meaning that you give to them. Right? Yeah.
Speaker 4:So you know, if I were in a different situation in life and had a similar dream, I might pull something different. But, but in that time period it was very significant because there was this part of myself that knew I was not in a good situation. So there was this internal battle. I think that the dream was able to kind of personify for me.
Speaker 3:So in this season, who is God to to you? How are you relating to god?
Speaker 4:and that at all. Um, so I talked about this in depth life a little bit, but when I first, uh, went to southern, my mom left the church. So I was raised adventist um, very traditional upbringing. My parents worked for the conference and like different schools and blah, blah, blah. And then my mom left the church when I entered college and so then began like a 10 year journey of my just like hating everything to do with the church Really. So, yeah, so, so this was during that time, so this was like I was still at Southern but like angry about it and bitter because I had to be in bed by 10, you know, like that kind of silly things like that.
Speaker 3:No, fair enough. So then you have this 10 year journey of some bitterness. Anger at the church Would that be appropriate, oh, 100%. And then you're also developing your professional bona fides of therapy. How are those aligning or misaligning, or how are they informing one another?
Speaker 4:At the time.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Not at all. I don't think like and I will say also like within, like I went to a religious school, but but it wasn't taught in a religious way, you know. So like psychology was taught like psychology, probably in the same way that chemistry is taught like chemistry, you know. So I don't know that I necessarily saw them as overlapping. Yeah, I don't know that I saw them ever really as overlapping.
Speaker 3:So then you graduate, so then you go on and do some grad work. Of course, you do post-grad work. You got a terminal degree or a doc, a doctorate as you're developing in therapy. What is therapy? How are you thinking about therapy in relationship to God and a spiritual life?
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And the spiritual life, particularly in the Christian understanding.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I don't know that I did for a really long time, so I think that I saw them relatively separately actually until, funny enough, while I was in my doctorate, there was a professor and I was in class and he mentioned oh man, I'm trying to remember what it was he was I think he was Jamaican and he was talking about different ways that people practice life, and I think he mentioned Sabbath.
Speaker 4:He mentioned something like that and obviously my ears perked and so I think I went up to him after class and I was like I think I found it interesting that you mentioned this thing and he was like oh well, I'm Adventist. And I was like yeah, yeah, he's Jamaican.
Speaker 3:There's a one in four chance.
Speaker 4:Right, well, yes, and there was a lot of like there, I think there were within the vicinity of where I lived, I think there were only four Adventist churches and two of them were Jamaican primarily, so, anyways, so that was just kind of funny. But then that kind of just made me think, like that's so interesting to me that he has a doctorate and he's working in a public university and he's Adventist, because the Adventist world, you think, is really big until you leave it and then you realize it's not as big as you thought, and so that was really interesting to me, like like the just those two worlds colliding, anyways. And then I started reading more, like Timothy Keller, and there's another author that I'm forgetting and he re, he like rewrote different gospels, like he wrote the gospels in the original words and then gave various interpretations, and I can't remember what his name is, but he is incredible. I feel like it's Michael something, anyways. So that's kind of what made me interested in like maybe there is a world where these aren't quite so separate.
Speaker 4:And then just even like holistic health, wise, right, like mind, body, spirit, like how all of those come together, and like I'm very much into like kind of the holistic approach and I, my concentration in my doctorate was a health concentration and so yeah, I think that that kind of helped to like reintroduce the topic for me. And then now obviously you know, I am a Christian and I am a psychologist. I don't it feels a little tricky because I don't want to claim necessarily being a Christian psychologist, because I actually have very few Christian clients. So if that is a part of therapy, then I love that and we can introduce that and talk about it. But it's not necessarily intertwined maybe in a way that I think people might assume.
Speaker 3:Sure. So then I'm interested how then? So there's a point where God becomes important to you, and I'm sure that's in your DTL episode, but do you think you can give us the cliff notes of how God then becomes important to you again?
Speaker 4:Yeah. So I never lost belief in a God, like I always believed. I thought it was really silly to assume that there wasn't, because there's just so much that we can't explain. So I always believed in a God. But when it came specifically to Christianity, I think that is what felt a little bit more nebulous, or like I didn't have as much of a direct relationship with it, it didn't feel as personal to me, I guess. But what is Proverbs 23, seven right, chain up a child in the way he should go, and when he is, he will never depart from it. That was me. I can I mean I can literally if I had a dollar for every time I like dabbled back in Christianity or went back to church, like it was a thousand times within that 10 years, like I missed it and it felt so comfortable to me and it felt home like and it just it. It felt like the bread and butter of who I was, because that's how I was raised for 18 years until my mom left the church, and so I constantly was like seeking and desiring a way for it to be made personal to me again, but it just felt like okay news again. But it just felt like okay news. And and then I had my daughter in 2021. And that just changed. I mean, it flips your world on its head. You know like thinking about how am I going to raise this child? I don't know. I know, confidently, how to raise an Adventist kid. I don't know how to raise a non-Adventist kid, and so like having those discussions with myself and like really thinking about it.
Speaker 4:And then, five months after I had my daughter, I got pregnant again unexpectedly and I was just so devastated because postpartum was difficult and I had just kind of come out of the fog of it and then was thrown right back into it and I was so overwhelmed. And so then I had my son and I was talking to God in the shower and I was just crying because I just was so overwhelmed and feeling like I just don't understand this life. Right now I feel so overwhelmed. I have two babies under 14 months old and I'm just struggling. And I heard God's voice so clearly for the first time in a really long time and he said this is what I have for you. And it was just a moment of clarity for me, like of realization, of like moving from a scarcity mindset to an abundance mindset and realizing, wow, I have been viewing this as a burden and it's actually a gift, and it just turned it on its head for me.
Speaker 4:And then, at the same time, I had been talking to Eddie. Um, I, eddie married me and my husband. He was really good friends with my husband for a long time before I met him, and then Jayla and my dad worked together, and so I had known them for a long time and we kept up with them through the years. But Eddie and I had been talking more so after I had my daughter, and so he kind of introduced me to the Freedom From Sin message and all these things, and so I was very interested in keeping very much in close contact with him throughout this time. And so then I think, after having my son, between that experience in the shower and then also like hearing the gospel message for the first time, it just became more personal.
Speaker 3:So yeah, what's the how? Was therapy and maybe that's the wrong word how was your insight and training in psychology informing your life in that season of turbulence?
Speaker 4:It sounds like after your second yeah, that's a really great question. Like after your second yeah, that's a really great question. Um, you know, it makes me think of like how people sort of have this impression. I think that, like therapists are therapists because they have it all together, um, which is obviously true.
Speaker 4:So I, um, yeah, I think that I became very narrow-minded in my focus and so I knew all the right things to do, right, have community, get outside, eat well, drink water, take deep breaths, journal, move your body, like I knew all the right things to do, but it just it just all felt so overwhelming, cause I'm like I was nursing both of my kids at this time and so it was just like between breastfeeding, basically around the clock, and then having to make meals and get dressed and like shower and brush my teeth, like all those things just felt like so overwhelming.
Speaker 4:So I don't know that I think I was just so in it, like in the thick of it at the time, that I didn't even have the capability really of of being able to do those things. But, with that being said, I did have my own therapist for a while after my daughter, cause I felt very, I felt so much stress in my body like a lot of tension and like tight, just tight muscles and like shallow breathing and which all those things for me are like kind of signs that I need to check in. And then with my son I had a therapist after for a while just to kind of check in and that was helpful. But yeah, I don't know that it would merge necessarily in the way that you might suspect as being like a working professional in the mental health field, but I do have like an awareness and a propensity towards seeking those resources when I feel like I need them.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and so how did that change? Or was it informed differently? After the shower experience the integration of God in your life and your professional life.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I stopped seeing a therapist, I just started talking to Eddie. No, yeah, oh my gosh, so different I it?
Speaker 3:was there's something there. There's something there. I'd probably want to put a pin in, maybe not a pin pin, but just to recognize that you're saying that there's this work of actually talking to somebody, processing with somebody, to something yes, oh yeah when you started processing with someone that was spirit filled and living in the agreement of the word, that there was something that was of great benefit there yes, and I think too, like.
Speaker 4:So, yes, what you're saying, a hundred percent, and I think that too, and I again, like I, have done a lot of emotional work, so I think for myself I'm able to recognize pretty well when something is resonating as being true, rather than like hearing it and then kind of being like, oh, that's interesting.
Speaker 4:So when I first heard the freedom from sin message, it resonated Like I was like that makes way more sense, like that's the gospel message. I get that, that is true, like that makes sense as to who I believe God is, that makes sense as to who I believe Jesus is, and like what he came to do, like it just resonated. So I think when I started talking to Eddie more during this time, it just opened my perspective and I think everybody kind of says this right, like when you understand the gospel, nothing changes and like everything changes at the same time. And that was totally my experience Like nothing changed. I was still at home with two really young babies and my husband was working and I still had to do the exact same amount of things, but my burden felt light. So, yeah, I think I think what you're saying, yes it's totally true.
Speaker 3:Can you recall, can you recall in what ways that there was like a deep resonance?
Speaker 4:Like when you hear cause.
Speaker 3:I remember the first time I heard this okay somebody was telling me that in christ, by faith, we're free from sin, and that was coupled for me with this clear revelation that god was my father and that any scarcity I was living from from having had a natural father who actually abandoned my family that scarcity was overwhelmed and overcome by the abundance of me being the son of my father in heaven. So that that was so. There's the abundance right that maybe you also experienced, like there was this abundance.
Speaker 3:And then the next thing was then I started realizing that the power of sin, the penalty of sin, the prison, the double-mindedness, it's, you know, everything that is the consequence of sin that I've been liberated from. I'm not under the condemnation of death. I was created to live in dignity and in worth and in continual relationship with God and with my fellow person. Right Like when that yeah, you're free from sin started resonating, I was like this is what it means to be human. So in that way I'm curious like what ways did it might have like resonance for you?
Speaker 4:Yeah, there was actually a distinct moment and I was listening to a Dan Moeller sermon because I think like I heard it all, like the free from sin, all of that resonated, but there was something about it that wasn't quite clicking into place as to how that happens. And I have always sought validation my whole life. Like that has always been like my thing. I love positive feedback and I was always like affirmed for that, like especially in doctorate school, because I would always ask my supervisors and the people who'd observe me like, hey, how am I doing? And I'd be like dang, this girl growth mindset, like she's wanting to know. But really I just wanted to be affirmed, I just wanted to know how good I was.
Speaker 3:Deception, deception looks real fancy if you're stewarding it with bona fides.
Speaker 4:Yeah, anyway. And so I was on a walk and this had always been like sort of a place of contention between me and my husband, because he is not a words of affirmation person at all. And I'm like I will write you a six page letter telling you how much I love your hair. Okay, like, I will totally do this. And so I was always like, why don't you just tell me like how pretty I am, or whatever?
Speaker 4:Anyway, and I was on this walk and I was listening to this Dan Miller sermon and he said something to the extent of, like, if you are looking for anybody else other than Jesus to fill your cup, you will always come up empty. And it was like the first time that I understood like, oh, all of this is because of Jesus. Like it's not just like this is like the reality that I'm like, that I just have, it's like there is a vine that I'm connected to that I'm able to get everything from. And so that night I remember distinctly, like apologizing to my husband and being like I just had this mind blowing experience where I realized I have been looking for you to fill my cup this whole time. So like, of course, I'm drained and overwhelmed and exhausted at the end of the day, because that's just like a futile. So I think that was when when it like really clicked for me was like that Dan Muller statement.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the. The image I have in my head is like a cup that's continually leaking.
Speaker 4:Yes.
Speaker 3:But the reason that it's leaking is because it has so much pressure. It's cracked under the pressure of looking for validation. Yeah. So that, under the pressure of looking for validation, that's why the crack is there, but it's then seeking more validation to fill the cup, but it's seeking a validation that is making it worse.
Speaker 4:Right, yeah, it's a cyclical issue.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. And then this revelation of that sounds so trite in so many places, like the Christian Instagram with the coffee mug and like your Devo book, and you take that picture right. And the candle Jesus is enough. Right, your scented candle Jesus is enough, and it's like no, no, no, that's literally it, though Jesus is enough.
Speaker 4:So blow that candle out, girl.
Speaker 3:So then, how does this now begin to inform professional Dr Savannah Williams, the dream interpreter?
Speaker 4:Yes.
Speaker 3:How does this abundance of Jesus being enough, now permeate into a holistic practice of therapeutic intervention?
Speaker 4:Yeah, you know, what's so funny is that's like the question that I think is the hardest for me to answer and, in some ways, because the gospel changed everything for me and it doesn't necessarily change what I do with the people that I work with, if that makes sense, so it changes how I conceptualize the person in the sense of like. So you know the story. I feel really silly. I'm going to be totally honest. I feel silly, like referencing the Bible, because I feel like you know it's so much better than me.
Speaker 3:No, no, no, I don't, I don't, but people don't know is that when people ask me questions, I'm constantly on Google?
Speaker 4:Yeah, people are like gosh. I'm really struggling with depression. I'm like man. You should see someone for that. That sounds bad. Okay, so the lame man in the pool of Bethesda, right, john 5.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's Ezekiel, chapter 4.
Speaker 4:Yeah, spot on. Yeah, old Testament story Actually.
Speaker 3:John.
Speaker 4:Yes, John 5. And I know that because I Googled it before our talk today there you go.
Speaker 3:I didn't want to say 5 and then play into the stereotype Good Ezekiel, chapter 4.
Speaker 4:Anyways. So this man right has been laying there beside this pool for 38 years and Jesus, when he approaches him, says do you want to be made? Well, like that's what he asks. And the guy doesn't even say like yes. Finally, like someone to come heal me, he blames his situation on external circumstances. He's like well, I can't, because all these people keep getting there before me and there's nobody to carry me.
Speaker 3:That's a bar, that's a word, even that dude right there blaming external circumstances.
Speaker 4:Yeah, but it's like it's like right there, I didn't even write it. And and then Jesus says, take up your mat and walk. Like he didn't say like oh, I've got a really good therapist for you, or like you know, let's try something different. Like what Jesus basically is pointing out is like you already have within you what it is that you need to stand up and walk, so just do it. And he does.
Speaker 4:So that, to me, is what therapy is, is my job is to recognize that the person that I'm sitting in front of is a child of God and they are loved like they don't even know, and they have within them everything that they need to be able to make it through whatever it is that they're facing, to be able to make it through whatever it is that they're facing, and so my job is just to really empower them and remind them of who they are. In more discreet language, right, like I can't just be like Jesus loves you. That's I can't. I can't do that Unless the person is already like worded that that is okay for them. But that is how I view my job.
Speaker 4:And like, actually I had another. I had a therapist in in my doctorate school that I loved so dearly and she was actually the only Christian therapist I've ever seen. But she told me about in Matthew 10, uh, the first verse, uh, where it says, like Jesus called to his disciples and he gave them the authority to cast out demons and heal sickness. In the New Testament, you would know this better than me. But healing, the word healing, do you know what the Greek word is?
Speaker 3:Don't do that Savannah. Yes, I do know the word.
Speaker 4:What is?
Speaker 3:it Sozo. Okay, I don't know, that's not the one I found. So okay, the different word like salvation, healing, no, you go, you go. See, I got it wrong. I don't know what that was. Oh, wait, wait, wait. The word for therapy is used in that instance.
Speaker 4:Yes, and this is awesome. And Matthew chapter nine, I think, two before that word, jesus, I think, is healing the lame man with a withered hand or something. I don't know, I don't know the authority to do this healing, to perform this healing. So I kind of view that as what I'm doing.
Speaker 3:I got it right here. I got it right here on my Google and it's Matthew 10, verse 1. And he called to him his 12 disciples, gave them authority over unclean spirits to cast them out and to heal every disease and every affliction. What you're saying is that the word there in Matthew 10 for healing is where we get our English word for therapy, Therapy.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so I think it's a Greek word and it's therapy without the Y, and then it's like a bunch of vowels Yay, you or something, absolutely yeah. So I think it's a Greek word and it's it's therapy without the Y, and then it's like a bunch of vowels no it's absolutely.
Speaker 3:You're absolutely, yeah, therapeuin, therapeuin, yeah, where we get therapy. No, that's phenomenal. Yeah, I understand the word therapy to mean a treatment that's intended to heal and rehabilitate. That's how. I understood it as a definition like because, as a broad definition, because you have physical therapy, you have mental interventionist therapy, you have all sorts of therapies, so therapy has a broad category as some sort of treatment that's intended to heal and rehabilitate. Does that ring true?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think how I frame therapy in terms of what I do, like my specific brand or kind of therapy, is the process of making unconscious processes conscious. Yes, so yeah, I think that feels accurate.
Speaker 3:And so that in your, in what you just offered, that would be within the context of, like, I think, cognitive, behavioral and mental health.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and not even just cognitive, behavioral, but even even just like when it comes to intention, right, Like everything that we do think feel behavior like all of those things tend to sort of be like second nature, Like we're kind of just going about our day and I feel like the process of therapy is really kind of digging into why do I do the things that I do? So that then you can apply a level of intentionality to all of those functions, which is why I say the making those unconscious things conscious, so that you're actually being intentional.
Speaker 3:Okay, and this is where I find a bit of a challenge, even with the word therapy, because I think all too often when therapy is invoked.
Speaker 3:I think all too often, when therapy is invoked I think it's the common usage is most often related to what you're articulating, okay, about some making unconscious conscious, about having some sort of mental or emotional processing that might be verbal, something related to cognitive, behavioral therapy, right? So that then, when we invoke therapy, I think that, more often than not, it's within sort of the network of ideas that you've offered. However, though, that the word therapy at the largest, like a 30, 50,000 foot definition, is just something that intended to relieve, for heal a disorder, because you have, you know, physical therapy, right, so you qualify that therapy and that therapy. Would it be something to make the unconscious, unconscious conscious?
Speaker 4:right.
Speaker 3:That would be just to get like muscles back working. Yeah, but that's a legitimate, uh, that's legitimately categorized as therapy for sure so that then, um, yeah, it's the.
Speaker 3:I think that I find and this is where I want to get some really insight from you is that I find that we invoke the word therapy often as it related to Christianity, like Jesus and therapy, and what we're talking about is what you're saying to some degree, but then it seems that there is a tension between, uh, a therapy that says make the unconscious conscious, you have everything inside of you, then why do you need Jesus? And if you have Jesus and Jesus is enough, why do therapy? That's a really sort of reductionistic way of framing it, but I think, more often than not, uncritical thought would reduce jesus and therapy to those sort of tensions yes right, yeah, uh, and then so.
Speaker 3:So then, this next step for me is that when I hear you say earlier, like you know, folks have everything that they need inside of them. When I hear that through a spirit lens, I'm hearing everybody's created in the image of God, image of God, everybody is a son and daughter of the King, whether they're lost sons and daughters or found sons and daughters, and that which did they have within them the image of God to be rediscovered and to be brought to their attention by way of somebody who's actually living in that reality and in that truth consciously, like you are yeah is the work that you're about.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Right. So I hear that in spirit, but somebody else is going to hear that and say when, when you say like they have everything within them, it's like, oh, so they have their own resource of energy and everything to do for themselves, so why do they then need Jesus? Does that make sense? Like that tension? Yes totally that I'm offering. What would you say to that?
Speaker 4:Oh my gosh, you should ask a psychologist. That that's a really good question. I'm not sure Sips her tea? Yeah, oh, man, I get that. But I think also, if someone were to like say that to me, what I would be most interested in is exploring where the resistance is coming from, because I think that that is what I would be the most curious about, because I think that that is a defensive approach rather than like a genuinely inquisitive approach. Does that make sense? No, it's good.
Speaker 4:So I think that's what I would be more interested in sort of delving into where that resistance is coming from.
Speaker 3:Well good, let us delve, let us delve.
Speaker 3:I'll offer you, because I've heard this also often oh good, let us delve, let us delve. I'll offer you because I've heard this also often oh great. On the one hand, the resistance is Jesus isn't fully working, because I'm hearing this message but it isn't working. I need to go back to therapy. And the warrant for that is that I'm still broken. I am still not enough in this. I'm hearing this message. It's not playing out of my life. I need to right. So that's on the one hand.
Speaker 4:So if you could speak to that one, then I'll give you the other one. Yeah, well, I would challenge the language. Right, like I am broken. Tell me more about that. Tell me more about, like, where, like, the language is coming from, and then the language that you're intentionally choosing, and then exploring the impact of that on your scope of view. Right, okay?
Speaker 3:So let's role play, and then we'll come back to the other side. Because I want to do it, let's role play. So I am broken because my father abandoned me when I was six years old and I have had this deep, deep fear of not being able to overcome his absence and lack of commitment to family. So I wander and I don't commit to anything because I'm still haunted by the trauma of being abandoned.
Speaker 3:And I don't want to be abandoned by somebody else, and I don't want to ever run the risk of maybe abandoning when the circumstances get too rough, because I'm not enough Like. I'm willing, right, Like my my, my spirit is willing to be in something to commit it. But my flesh is so unbelievably weak and I know that I might run like my dad did.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so what's interesting is like noting sort of this internal tension that you're like presenting right Of like I want to do one thing, but then this other thing is sort of pulling me in this other direction. Why are you laughing?
Speaker 4:I'm only like you'll, you'll see okay, oh, because you know you're going to say next yeah um, I mean from a gospel perspective, right, like we know that the flesh has nothing on you anymore, so we could talk about that. But then also, I think what's interesting is like you're noting. What you're noting is like you're you're aware of it, like this internal struggle and this feeling, and so, again, I think, delineating that and like delving deeper into that, like where is the actual fear coming from? Because where it would probably be is your fear, is becoming your father, right, and so we have the ability to make a conscious choice to do something different, and even in light of fear, right, like acknowledging that that feeling is there and also aligning yourself with what feels true and what is true and the values that you uphold, and then choosing to do that regardless of feeling, and then feeling might follow.
Speaker 3:Yes, so this is why I kind of laugh, because the thing that I'm expressing was very real to me for a long long time I could tell I thought so from what you said in the beginning. Yeah, a hundred percent, it was so real to me for so long, and it was my Roman seven.
Speaker 4:Yes, right, right, of course, yeah.
Speaker 3:Like I want to be a better man.
Speaker 4:Right, but I just can't.
Speaker 3:I just can't. Yeah. So, in order to assuage the inability to be a better man, I participate in the desires of the flesh. So I participate in the desires of the flesh.
Speaker 3:So I am not committal, I am promiscuous. I don't want to objectify women but I do, and the reason I do it is because I, ultimately, I don't want to ultimately break their heart by going into a relationship that I won't be able to commit with because I'll abandon them. So it's better to just have our little fun and then separate our ways, right, but I'm just that cup with the pressurized crack that's continually feeding off of my brokenness. I'm speaking for myself now Right. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And so then I find that tension that I've articulated to you, that comes from a personal experience, to be overlaid rather neatly with the Roman seven person Totally, to be overlaid rather neatly with the Roman seven person Totally.
Speaker 3:And when, like I said earlier, when I came to that understanding of like one, I am beloved of my true father in absolute abundance and that from that love I am free from condemnation, I'm free from flesh, I am free from double mindedness, so that I can live in the abundance of his love, all of a sudden I am no longer a child that was abandoned by my father. I am a son of a heavenly king who his natural father. He abandoned his family, like my father abandoned his family. I am not the abandoned child. Yeah Right that totally should.
Speaker 4:Oh, a hundred percent reframing, yeah, and so yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:And so just to go back to that other side that I said I'd return to, is that then, on the other side, is the religious practitioner or the spiritual professional who will default to Jesus? Enough, you don't need therapy, right? Yeah. And so often me and some of the people I do ministry with have been accused of saying things like this, and it's not quite the correct framing, because we don't want to prioritize non-spirit led therapy at the expense of the. Savior of the world.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 3:And that's a hill we'll die on. Yeah, it's like, no, no, no Jesus and therapy. Yeah, if that's going to be the order, right, yeah, for the people of God, yeah, I want you to know. Like no Jesus in him, by him, for him, all things hold together and exist. And then, yeah, you can absolutely do this other thing, right, right. But what the religious practitioner that it's often so binary is like no only Jesus, no therapy, ever and often they might use like the verbiage that you used earlier in this in our conversation, and like you said, oh, you know, I started realizing the gospel. I stopped going to therapy, started talking to Eddie and like see.
Speaker 3:see, right there, All you need is Christians. And like when we look at it in a spirit frame I know what you're saying and why you're saying, but that can be used as a justification at times for our religious practitioners. To say oh yeah, see therapy is to say oh yeah, see therapyism no benefit right.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it is really interesting that that is like a sort of a base approach I do. I'm trying to think of, like what I would be curious to hear what those people's, when they say therapy, like what they're envisioning, you know, like what do you think happens in a therapy session? Or like what they're envisioning you know, like what do you think happens in a therapy session? Or like what is therapy to you? That's what I would be curious about, cause I think that there, as somebody who practices therapy, as a therapist and has been in therapy multiple times throughout my life, there is absolutely nothing that is like frightening about it, but I think that there is still and it's so crazy that we're even still talking about this but truly there is so much stigma around it that there is a tremendous amount, I think, of fear that like if somebody breaks their leg, then we have no qualms right Telling people like, oh man, yeah, I fell down the stairs and broke my leg, so I'm going to go to a doctor and I'm going to go to a physical therapist, but like God forbid, we say I feel anxious, or like I'm starting to panic every time I get on a plane or whatever.
Speaker 4:That's like a whole different. Like we keep that quiet and that's what's so interesting about Jesus is like he was a full grown man who was like sobbing in front of Lazarus's tomb in public. Or like he was like flipping tables because he was pissed off, you know. And like the Bible says, like be angry and do not sin, but it doesn't say don't be angry. Like we have emotional experiences. God gives us emotional experiences.
Speaker 3:And what I'm hearing? What I'm hearing, uh no, what I'm hearing is, uh, that, to to be emotionally embodied.
Speaker 4:Yes, oh, my goodness. I mean emotions are so it is a physical like ramification of feelings. Is what emotion is like, that happens in our body. So to quelch that is honestly it's really dangerous because it stays in our body. I'm sure I don't know if you've heard of the body keeps the score. It's like a very well-known book.
Speaker 3:Oh, it's a, it's a, it's uh-huh. I have a copy of it. It's a hard hitter. Well-read.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's a dense book though, but yeah, I mean our body has a memory of those things and so to not be able to work through them, like that has ramifications, like significant ramifications. And I mean even just to like look at Jesus's life and how he approached emotion, like when he was on I can't remember where it was but when he like begged his disciples like don't leave me, like he didn't want them to leave him, Like he he was in touch with how he felt and he had no, seemingly from the context, like there was no fear in approaching what his inner experience was. And so I feel like we can use that as like motivation to come into contact with our inner experience. But we have this avoidance, like this tendency of avoiding or like being scared of it, and I think that Christians, specifically, have really struggled with that. And I feel like we are only more powerful if we're in tune with our emotions and how we're feeling, so that we can then lead our lives more holistically.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I sense that part of the fear. This is not me speaking as a professional minister, with some know-how of the sort of archetype ideas at play, right yeah, the sort of archetype ideas at play, right yeah that there is. On the one hand, we are sinners who are incapable of producing what God requires in righteousness, and we have to receive it from him.
Speaker 3:So, if you go to therapy that tells you, oh, you have everything you need inside and then just let it emerge. It seems as though it's at war with this vision of what gospel and what the plan of salvation is about. That says a human is first sinner, broken, wretched, distance from god and needs to be infused or receive whether legally, as the protestants, or infused as the catholics this external thing that they could never come up with for themselves. So if you go to therapy sessions that says you have it inside, you're nullifying the work of Jesus Right Like that's on the other hand Okay.
Speaker 3:The other one is if Jesus is absolutely enough and he's given you all these things and then you go to therapy that tells you you're not enough and you're constantly broken and this and that. Don't listen to that broken mindset of the world Like only Jesus, right. Yeah. Those are two sides that come from opposite ways and still end up critiquing therapy. Do you see what you hear?
Speaker 4:Yes, so there's this. Oh man, I should have. This is another text I should have Googled before.
Speaker 3:Do you remember some of the key ideas?
Speaker 4:So basically he says at the end, like he describes all of these things like teachers and prophets and books and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, all these things, and at the very end he says and all of these things are yours Do you know what?
Speaker 4:I'm talking about. So the way that I read that scripture and again it was I was reading a particular book at the time and I can't remember what it was, but was saying that every life experience that we have, every opportunity that we have, is given to us by God, and like we can take those things and so, like exactly how you're saying the therapist right who's like well, you have everything within you and like it's maybe not coming from a gospel frame. My challenge to that person would be you can interpret their meaning however you want to interpret it. So if you believe that you genuinely do have everything within you because of Jesus, then take it and run Like they don't. I feel like we have this tendency of like of taking something and then teasing it apart and then finding what we disagree with and then getting annoyed at that and then writing everything off, and I don't agree with that as an approach, whereas when we approach something with an open hand and we look for what we can gain from it, we have such a better experience and then we can walk away with it, leaving what we don't need but still taking with us what we can.
Speaker 4:I heard recently and I thought this was really interesting and I would be kind of curious to hear what your thoughts are. But it was that Dr Anita Phillips I don't know if you know who that is, but she's a Christian psychologist and she was talking about how when somebody needs a surgery, a Christian needs surgery. They don't like search for a Christian surgeon, but like if we need a therapist, like they better be Christian, which is just kind of like an interesting. I don't necessarily have a stance on it, I kind of feel like in the middle, but it is just interesting because, again, like a therapist is coming to you with a toolbox and like their job is to give you tools that are helpful. They're not all going to stick. Whether you're a Christian or not, not to mention if a Christian therapist is there, you don't know your interpretation of Christian could be entirely different and your interpretation of therapist or good therapist could be entirely different. So that doesn't necessarily guarantee success, so to speak.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm going on a tangent. I've interacted with that. No, I've interacted with that idea and what I offer is that any good surgeon is going to seek to agree with the design of the body that they're working on.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Right. So every I think every good doctor who takes a the Hippocratic oath when they see a broken bone they're like oh, we need to set this, this right. They don't see a broken bone and they're like well, let's explore why it's broken yeah right, so that what does this mean? That's right. Good, good medical intervention. Good, uh, therapeutic intervention is. Agreeing with the design yes that's what I would. So if I'm going into a therapy session that speaks contrary to who God says, I am.
Speaker 4:Yes.
Speaker 3:And speaks contrary to the intent of the designer for my life, then that's probably not the office I want to be in. Yeah, so that's what I would offer. Yeah, when it comes to Well and even no, I don't need a Christian doctor to work on my back. I certainly need a doctor who's going to agree with the design of my body.
Speaker 4:Right, yeah, no, that makes perfect sense and I think that the majority of therapists truthfully probably would.
Speaker 3:That's awesome. Yeah, good to hear. So when we talk about these two sides of maybe the religious practitioner and how one religious practitioner will say, we're sinners, don't go to therapy, that tells you that you're have everything you need inside. Or the other one that says, jesus, enough, don't go to therapy, they're going to lead you astray. Yeah.
Speaker 3:See if this resonates with you. What I have found is two things at play. One, scarcity from the religious practitioner, at times over, or even from therapy over. Yeah. So if the religious practitioner says, oh, we're nothing but sinners, we'll never, we'll never this, we're never that, don't believe a therapy that says you have it in you. Scarcity mindset, right, yeah, totally. If you have the religious practitioner who says jesus has done it all, uh, don't go to a therapy that's going to tell you you're broken and you're whack, and like you Totally. If you have the religious practitioner who says Jesus has done it all, don't go to a therapy that's going to tell you you're broken and you're whack and like you, just need to try to do better. That therapist is working from a scarcity mindset, so that the problem is scarcity. So, positioning something in scarcity, whether the religious practitioner or the therapist, how does that does that? That's a working theory I have.
Speaker 4:Oh yeah, no, I love it and I agree that both like when you said, when you offered both positions, in my head I thought they're actually both the same. Um yeah, so what's so interesting about so scarcity mindset? Frequently, I think, comes from a place of like seeking safety and sort of like an assurance, you know, so when we're overwhelmed or like in a state of fight or flight is a really easy example. Like it can be hard to notify that like we're actually safe, and so I'm getting lost here. What was the question?
Speaker 3:no, my brain, my brain, my brain. No, just the idea of that. Both of these positions are scarcity yeah, they're scarcity. So when a religious practitioner takes umbrage against therapy scarcity? When therapy positions, you is broken as your dog. You're this, you're that, and does it actually scarcity? Yeah, so that the challenge is scarcity.
Speaker 4:Uh-huh. So then, how do we? How do we approach it? Or that's it, no, or what do I think about that? I agree.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. I think that some of the fear of religious practitioners in relationship to therapy, whether legitimate or not, is actually underwritten by scarcity.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Whether that the therapy is going to position you, whether legitimate or not, is actually underwritten by scarcity. Whether that the therapy is going to position you in scarcity or the theology you're working from is positioning you in scarcity so that the abundance that therapy might position you is a threat to your theology, because your theology says you're wretched, you're wicked, you're a sinner, you'll never have enough. So if therapy tells you that, you have it inside of you that is.
Speaker 3:Run away. Yeah, that is neo-paganism. Run away Right, a hundred percent. But I'm just saying what underwrites both of that and all of that is scarcity, scarcity scarcity. Totally. That just is. You know, that's just the cousin of fear.
Speaker 4:Yes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the other one is what you mentioned earlier is that you were talking about, oh man, the power of choice. I can choose to see things differently. I have agency, like the fruit of the spirit is actually self-control. I find all too often and I see this in my life that sometimes I don't want to choose the thing. I don't want to choose, and the fact that it's available and that I can choose it, I almost resent it because I haven't exercised my power of will to choose correctly the very thing that's in front of me. Back to Romans 7. Then I give myself permission to not choose the thing because, hey, romans 7. Right, so there's scarcity, and then there is, I haven't exercised the power of choice correctly. So I can't actually live in abundance because I don't have abundance and I can't choose abundance because I don't have the ability to choice correctly. So I can't actually live in abundance because I don't have abundance and I can't choose abundance because I don't have the ability to be abundant. You see what I'm saying.
Speaker 4:Totally Well. And what's so interesting is, like, even just the science behind scarcity versus abundance mindset in general is just so interesting. Abundance mindset in general is just so interesting. So, like, when we talk about a scarcity mindset so frequently, it is coming from this sense of a lack of safety. Right, like I don't, there's not enough, I don't have enough resources, or I don't have enough mental capacity, I don't have enough time, I don't have enough of any of these things. But what's so fascinating is that the veil between scarcity and abundance is so thin. We always think like, oh, the grass is greener on the other side.
Speaker 4:That person, of course they live in abundance, of course they have an abundance mindset. Look at all the money they make, or look how big their house is, or look at all the free time they have and all the resources that are just available to them. But the reality is, is both of those things scarcity and abundance are a hundred percent perspective. And so then you kind of get into, like the talk of like neuroplasticity Did you grow up hearing? I'm sure you did, because I did. But like, like your brain stops growing at 25. Did you hear that?
Speaker 3:Yes, I heard, yes, I heard that that particularly Well, let's put it this way. I heard that male brains are set oh interesting Like 26, 27, 28.
Speaker 4:It's like then they can make informed decisions after that point. So it's like they're kind of like written off up until then 100 percent.
Speaker 3:So the way it was presented to me in the religious context is like that's why you couldn't be a rabbi until you're 30, because before that, like your brain, is the set your like prefrontal cortex actually make the best informed adult decisions yeah and the way I heard it in, like the secular sort of fruit. Fruit is um. Have you heard of a Saturn return?
Speaker 4:Like the literal planet.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the literal planet. It takes 29 Earth years for Saturn to have one year, one rotation around the sun, right, oh, interesting. And so the Saturn return is this idea, particularly for men, that it takes one Saturn return to actually emerge into manhood and then that's the middle of your life, because that's 29 years. Yeah, when you have your second Saturn return, you've lived, emerge into manhood, and then that's the middle of your life, because that's 29 years, yeah, when you have your second saturn return, you've lived that middle life and going into golden years. So it's like this clear demarcation of emerging with your set prefrontal cortex into manhood via your saturn return.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yes and no yeah yeah, it was.
Speaker 3:It was a time in my life where I was listening to a lot of pickup artists on the Internet. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's hilarious. Just to say, yes, I've heard it.
Speaker 4:No, I, I remember hearing that like and it was sort of like used in terms of teenagers, right, like their brain isn't fully formed, which yes, and also what we know now is our brain isn't fully formed, which yes, and also what we know now is our brain is never fully formed, right? So neuroplasticity is this idea that our brain is constantly forming new neural connections and our brain has a tendency of going the path of least resistance, and so we tend to like we are sort of born with this negativity bias, right? It's so much easier for us to remember and conjure up.
Speaker 3:We're born with a negativity bias.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Man. I wonder, how that happened.
Speaker 4:It's that Saturn thing. It's so much easier for us to talk about, like, negative experiences, negative emotions, um, negative feelings, and so our brain has this sort of selective attention towards these things, right. But again, what we know about neuroplasticity is we have the ability to change it. And it's hard, it does take effort, but it takes the most effort in the beginning. So, like, think about, like, I have two really young toddlers. So when you're young, your parents are teaching you how to brush your teeth at night, right, and they do this by behavioral scaffolding. Right, we put on pajamas on first, and then we go to the bathroom, we brush our teeth, then we go to the room and we turn the lights down and we read a book, and then we get in bed and we fall asleep, right, it's just a whole routine and in the beginning-.
Speaker 3:No, you just sorry, you just gave me great language. Behavioral scaffolding I need to tuck that away, thank you.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you're so welcome, I'm so wise, anyways. So then, like, the goal is, as they get older, that ultimately this behavior is sort of second nature, right, I was just talking to a friend of mine the other day who's also a psychologist. We went to college together and we were talking about how, as an adult, like if I don't brush my teeth before I go to bed, I feel so guilty.
Speaker 3:Like oh girl that's three nights out of the week for me.
Speaker 4:I mean, it was a lot for me in the beginning of pregnancy. I couldn't even think about it, it would just like make me throw up, so I just like couldn't do it. But it is this like, oh my gosh, like something's going to happen because it's so ingrained, right, it's like this behavior that you have to do, and so that's neuroplasticity, like that is the scaffolding of behavior, so that then it becomes so easy that the neurons just naturally go the path of least resistance. This is what we do, it is common practice. The path of least resistance. This is what we do, it is common practice. So, in the same way, we can practice right, working towards an abundance mindset, and I mean that can be started as easy as practicing gratitude, being like really mindful of where you are, like present moment awareness, which is what Jesus was the best at right, like he was never distracted, like he saw and talked to whoever was in front of him and was fully immersed in that moment.
Speaker 2:So like giving your Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait wait for the initiated.
Speaker 3:You're moving so fast on such good things. So the practice of abundance you named gratitude.
Speaker 4:Oh yeah.
Speaker 3:Present something awareness.
Speaker 4:Present moment awareness. Present moment. Present moment awareness and then awareness present moment, present moment awareness.
Speaker 3:And then there was a third one I think you just went over, or maybe I have threes in my mind, Cause I have a bias towards that. Um, but unpack for us just, yeah, a little bit of practicing abundance by way of gratitude and present moment awareness.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so okay. So I mean, gratitude is just a really easy one or well, an easy one to talk about. It might not feel it might feel insurmountable at the beginning, but there is always. We can always find something to be grateful for, and that's just an easy way to kind of dip your toe into moving from scarcity towards abundance. Talking about I don't know, I mean, in my own life, it's so easy. I like I'm so thankful that I'm pregnant, right, like I'm like being pregnant is miserable. I can so easily talk about the negative aspects of being pregnant.
Speaker 4:But then that puts me right back towards scarcity, right? So, like abundance, I'm so thankful that my body has the ability to carry a baby, that that my body, as it expands and gets bigger, that it is creating room for this life right To take form, and I'm so thankful for that. I have a husband who is so supportive, who's watching our kids right now with no complaint. Like I'm thankful that we have a home, that we are alive. Like I love I just love life in general. Like I'm so thankful and it's easy. That is like a snowball effect, right. Like when we're grateful for the small things, it is so much easier to be grateful for anything and everything else.
Speaker 3:There's always something to be thankful for. Always as long as you're alive there's always something, and as long as you're alive, there's always something to complain about.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 4:So this makes me think of something. Okay, I'm going to do an exercise with you. Okay.
Speaker 3:Okay, so I want you to look around the room that you're in and no, if this is no, let's do it, because I think I know this exercise, do you?
Speaker 4:I got this from a book.
Speaker 3:Let's do it, okay, okay.
Speaker 4:I want you to look around the room that you're in and take note of everything that's blue. Do you know what I'm doing? Yes. You don't have to say it out loud, but just think about it. Yep, yes, you don't have to say it out loud, but just think about it. Yeah, yeah, okay, all right now, close your eyes, tell me everything that was red not everything, but there's a big red bag right here.
Speaker 3:Oh there, it is no, you're absolutely no. Now i'm'm noticing, wow.
Speaker 4:Way more red right.
Speaker 3:You were doing, even knowing what you were doing, because I knew this. Now all I'm seeing is red, like yeah, like Justin's T-shirt, the handle on the microphone oh, that's that. I think it's even more powerful for me knowing what you were doing. I'm so recognizing my awareness for redness. I'm choosing to look for red, and I'm finding it everywhere.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Oh, that's crazy.
Speaker 4:Because red is an obscure color too to have a lot of in your room. But yeah, so we find what we're looking for. So we can always find things to moan about and complain about. But with a little bit of effort in the beginning we can always find something to be thankful for, and that is so much easier of a state to live in than to be very well secured in the victim mentality all right.
Speaker 3:So all let's do present moment awareness.
Speaker 4:Oh, okay.
Speaker 3:Something about that yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah, present moment awareness is something that I think again kind of gets a bad rap when I think, especially within Christian circles, like the term mindfulness or like meditation sort of brings this like immediate fear and resistance, and those are like two of my favorite things. So, yeah, so present moment awareness is just the practice of being fully embodied, where you are taking in what is in front of you without judgment. So, noticing that right now I am sitting here, I can see you right, I can like feel the breeze from the AC coming out of the vent, I can feel my like very lukewarm tea in my hand, my toes are cold, right, like I am taking note of how I'm feeling in this moment and that allows me to be fully immersed in the moment. I'm not thinking about like I don't have any groceries. I'm teaching Sabbath school tomorrow. That's going to be a wreck.
Speaker 4:Never done that right, like I could totally go down this whole thing, but then that takes me out of what allows me to be thankful and present. And so full-bodied awareness is really, and there's a really easy practice. Do you want to do it real quick, because this would be helpful. Let's do it.
Speaker 4:Okay, what are five things that you see and not? Like I see the desk like obscure, like I see the reflection of the lamp in the window, like just five things that you notice. It doesn't have to be that obscure.
Speaker 3:Yeah now you said obscure, so I'm like looking for obscure but I can tell you three things that I noticed.
Speaker 4:Five. It can be three, that's fine.
Speaker 3:All right, I'm at four fine five got five okay, so five things that you see.
Speaker 4:What are four things that you're touching? So, like I'm touching my tea, my feet are on the stool, I can feel my in-ears.
Speaker 3:Yeah, okay, yep, there it is, I got four.
Speaker 4:So four things are touching, three things, it's all the senses Touching, seeing, tasting, smelling and hearing. Three things you're hearing. Okay. And then two things you're smelling.
Speaker 3:Okay, and one thing you're tasting A bad breath, okay, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:So all that does is just get you into contact with the present moment, right, like all of those things are happening, whether or not you're paying attention to them or not.
Speaker 4:So all that does is just get you in your body and and like in contact with where you are.
Speaker 4:And another really cool thing that I think is really, really helpful this is a quote, unquote like trick that I learned is, when it comes to our breathing, we are always either relaxing or tensing, so that is completely dictated by the length of our exhale versus inhale, right?
Speaker 4:So if your inhale and your exhale are the same length, or your exhale is shorter, you're actually like speeding up your respiratory system and you're bringing yourself into a sense of stress.
Speaker 4:And so you can use that to your advantage by checking in with your breath and ensuring that your exhale is actually longer than your inhale, and what that does is it relaxes your nervous system, it lets you know that you're safe, it brings down your respiratory rate. It's like that's another really easy way to just like become more embodied in the moment and focus on what's in front of you, rather than kind of getting sucked into whatever's happening in your head or anyways no, all things that, as you're saying, is a resonating so deep, because all things that, in the best of times, are a practice in prayer yeah, to take the moment and be aware to take the moment and like, localize my breathing as I engage God in prayer, and I mean this in the sense where I would actually sit in a room, get very comfortable and practice this awareness to then engage him in gratitude as gratitude emerged.
Speaker 3:I would practice having that gratitude emerge from a body that was at rest. Yes. And a mind that was aware when my life speeds up, I deviate from finding that space which is of such great importance because then the gratitude emerges in with in the text. I sense that the text itself begins to open up in greater revelation, because my posture of mind and body is ready to receive the things of the spirit which are peaceable. They are wise that they are gentle right. Yes.
Speaker 4:But actually being in that embodied state is to agree with the character of the spirit oh, my goodness, yes, well, and I have so many like thoughts on that, but also like the the um posturing of that that you're presenting is very much an open hand right, and so when we think of open handedness like it is this posture of being relaxed, and to be relaxed you have to be in contact with what is happening internally, so like if we avoid it or push it down, that actually creates more of a closed hand experience and then we feel tense.
Speaker 4:So being embodied and aware of our own inner experience is what then leads to that. And the other thing that I thought about too with gratitude is I read this book called A Thousand Gifts, and I can't remember the name of the author, it's Ann something but she talked about the story of when Jesus feeds the 5,000 and how there were, you know, the five loaves and two fishes, and how, right before, jesus prayed and he offered a prayer of thanks, and that is what turned that into enough. And so when we offer up our gratitude, it doesn't mean that suddenly what we have is so much prettier or like we get more of it. It's that we recognize oh no, I've, I've had enough from the beginning. And so that's what then moves us into a state of just being perpetually grateful, because we recognize that where we are is where we should be, and what we have is what we should have, and it is more than enough to be who we are.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was taken aback by the prayers that I heard in the Chosen Every time that they broke bread and prayed. It was, you know, blessed are you, o God, king of the universe, for from you flows the fruit of the vine. Blessed are you, o God, king of the universe, for from you comes the abundance of the fields. And then just posture your heart. I think one of the things about gratitude is that it postures your heart as the receiver of good things, your heart as the receiver of good things, and that it creates a, a a mindset that's good and gratitude. But it also creates a mindset of your correct relationship to the giver. I receive, he gives right. If I give back to him, it's only because he gave first, so that gratitude sets that framework. So to say thank you, it's that you gave right and your God, I'm the human, your creator, I'm creation. You're the gift giver. I receive, I give back because you gave right, and that sort of the beneficence of love.
Speaker 4:The feedback loop. The positive feedback loop.
Speaker 3:Listen, I got two things that I think I'd love to at least touch on before we wrap this up, and that would be one the idea of a victim mentality and staying victimized. You made reference to that. I'd love to at least have a little bit about that. And then two we earlier discussed a little bit about stewarding our feelings. Well, but feelings aren't Lord. Just because I don't feel, it doesn't mean I can't do it right. If you could speak, maybe first to the victim, one, yeah, or is that a whole nother hour and a half talk.
Speaker 4:No, well, maybe yeah, that's a whole nother hour and a half talk. No, well, maybe no, I think that that is. It's such a um. I remember somebody one time at internet church mentioned the word submission and I remember you saying like trigger word, and that's kind of how I feel about victim mentality is like trigger word, um, because I think it's a really big temptation. It's really easy to be the victim, um, in the sense of we're not talking about trauma. Let me just be very clear. Right, are we just talking about the victim mentality in general?
Speaker 3:I'm talking about the victim mentality, but you just blew my brain by saying that it's a temptation about the victim mentality.
Speaker 4:but you just but you blew my brain by saying that it's a temptation like oh my goodness, it carries the path of least resistance a hundred percent.
Speaker 4:a hundred percent, yeah, well, and it, it, um, it frames you as being powerless, um, and I just don't believe that that is what we are. So if you are framing yourself as being a victim, then that is what you are and that is what you see. Right, you're only looking for blue and that's all you're going to find. And then, on the flip side, it's kind of like a parallel conversation to the scarcity versus abundance mindset, right, when you're sitting at the table as a victim, let's just say, and you're choosing that perspective. But I think and again, like this is kind of putting into context, like therapy as well what that can help you to do is to get up from that table and then sit in the different seats and see the different perspectives, or maybe even leave the room and look at what the room looks like from the outside or observe the table no, it's powerful, because you just mentioned saying that, uh, something that comes along with that mentality might be that we're powerless, but we always have the power of choice and how we see oh my goodness so we're never without full power, like you can, as long as you're living, you can choose to see one way or another right cognitive ability
Speaker 4:yeah, a hundred percent. We have the choice. You have the choice. There's this book called the choice theory. Yeah, and it had. It came with a a lot of controversy when it came out, cause one of his big things I can't remember his name either. This is so bad. I remember all the titles and none of the authors, but I'll look them up for you.
Speaker 4:He, he talked about how he does not use any sort of diagnosis, like instead of saying, like you have depression, he would use active form. So he would say you are depressing or you are anxiety, not like you're depressing but like you are too depressed.
Speaker 4:You are choosing to anxiety. It's not necessarily a verb. It's not necessarily a verb. I know. No, really I know, but also, like I'm, I love it because I so believe it, like I think it is so true. And a lot of people too. I know that there's going to be people when they hear that, think about like depression and how, like, there is a chemical imbalance in the brain. The actual amount, like the percentage of chemical imbalances in the brain as having caused depression, is an incredibly low percent.
Speaker 4:So, the majority of time, it is an approachable problem like how you're approaching it.
Speaker 3:So you're, if I'm hearing you correctly, you're saying that the cases of depression that can be diagnosed via chemical imbalance are a lot smaller in relationship to the cohort of people who say they are depressed. The majority of those cases are because active present. You are depressing because you are, not that you as a person are depressed.
Speaker 4:Yes, you are choosing to depress.
Speaker 3:You're choosing to depress? Yeah, powerful. And are you choosing to depress?
Speaker 4:Uh, I would imagine that most would say it's unconscious. I mean, this is a tool that you have learned has gotten you to where you are and so, through the process of therapy, being able to discuss that and talk about it, be able to create a place where there's appreciation for how far that's gotten you and then also acknowledge this isn't working for me anymore. So, like, let's approach it differently.
Speaker 3:Yeah, what I love about that is that they dovetails back into this idea of Christian therapy. Right, whether it's a christian therapy or not, I definitely need a therapist who agrees with design so that if a therapist says I'm depressed and then connects me to a psychiatrist for medication, yeah, all the while it's actually that I am depressing, then it seems to be a little bit of a malpractice there. Let's approach it from maybe the depressing. If you do have the depression, that's chemical, we can address that.
Speaker 3:But, there's also this other alternative approach that might benefit you.
Speaker 4:A hundred percent. Well, and even what we know from like evidence-based therapy, right like is never the best practice of therapy within the scope of chemical imbalance, is both psychiatry and psychology have playing a role. So, you know, if that is what someone is dealing with, by all means, like, get the help that you need. And I, yeah, I think that there's a greater percentage that can use a perspective shift.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, that's powerful. Um, and then, uh, the last wrap up, the last one, was about feelings and about the power of choice, because they, they had all seen.
Speaker 3:I'm telling you oh yeah I think I'm I try to be as best I can try to get to the root bottom of things, and I think that the root bottom is something to do with scarcity and choice, like from way of perspective, more often than not right like and again, this is my own thinking yeah, yeah, both these last pieces of the conversation where you have the the feelings piece right now. Then there's the victim mentality sort of thing that that's rooted in scarcity and then not choosing to not see through scarcity, so that you're actively depressing. Yeah.
Speaker 3:That has something to do with a view of scarcity and choice exercised or not, right.
Speaker 4:A hundred percent. So this is where, for me, like how I practice as a therapist is I come at it I I come at it from an acceptance and commitment therapy lens. It's called act and that tends to be how I practice, and it is a huge, like new, kind of a new movement that incorporates a lot of different elements of therapy. But what I love the most about it is that you have a guiding light, which is your values and what it is that you want to pursue and so, obviously, within Christendom, right, like we sort of have the list of values that like we can kind of just spit out. Right, like the fruits of the spirit or, you know, church, and blah, blah, blah. But what is so helpful about that and how I practice is that it creates this very clarifying direction that we want to move in. So, like for you mentioning, like noticing this scarcity and abundance mindset, it's helpful in knowing that, first of all, we don't need to be afraid of our feelings, right, and in fact, when we conjure up fear about our feelings, it does the complete opposite. It is so unhelpful and we have a tendency to believe that our feelings are on this spectrum and, like over here, are really bad ones and over here are really good ones, and if I can just tip the scales so that I'm just feeling the good ones, it would be great. But what actually ends up happening is that we narrow our ability to experience anything, so we narrow our ability to feel really good feelings and we narrow our ability to feel really bad feelings. And so the approach to that, which then we kind of talk about, there's so many like the window of tolerance and how we can like expand our window of tolerance so that we're able to tolerate things that feel more overwhelming. But if we can get to this place where we're able to experience that full spectrum, right then there isn't a fear and we're able to sort of ride the wave, because we have this tendency of thinking it's going to be so big and it's going to be so hard and it's going to be so overwhelming and I'm not going to make it through. And the reality is is, if we can just hold tight for like a minute, probably even less, we'll kind of we'll get through it.
Speaker 4:So, first of all, if we can just get to a place where we're able to have contact with the present moment, have contact with our breath, be able to ride the wave of whatever that feeling or emotion is and be able to get through it without placating it right, notice where the feeling is coming from and then remind ourselves, okay, what is really true for me, like what feels like the place that I want to pursue, where am I wanting to move, what feels like the place that I want to pursue, where am I wanting to move, and how can I acknowledge how I'm feeling and then also pursue a values-based behavior?
Speaker 4:Then that helps to give us this like guiding light so that, even if we're feeling like meh about it or whatever, that we can know that we're ultimately pursuing what feels the most important, right, and then that brings us meaning is that we're pursuing what is the most important to us, regardless of feelings. So, like you're saying, feelings aren't Lord, they're really great indicators and they're really bad dictators, but they can be really really helpful in giving us a clue into our experience. So we have to be, we have to practice truly like being in touch with our emotions and riding that wave, so that then we can move forward whole bodied, like embodied, without being resentful or pushing down what our experience is, but still pursuing what's ultimately important.
Speaker 3:Dr Savannah Williams with the truth bombs.
Speaker 1:There it is.
Speaker 3:There it is. Well, listen, I know that I have been incredibly enriched by this time together, and I'm sure that people are listening will be as well, and I think that with enough time, you probably have this baby.
Speaker 3:give it a few months and then maybe sometime in 2025, we should do this again let's do it much left, so I know you could talk forever about it and oh no, and I think, I think we want to, we want to and I think we're blessed by it, because it's so eye-opening to see how the simplicity of truth, uh, from the gospel lens inform so much but then how deep it can be. Yeah. Simple, but it's super deep and it's I want to travel all the avenues in the depth right.
Speaker 4:Yeah, oh no, I love that, and I love that you're approaching the conversation too, because I feel like it makes it palatable for people and I think it's genuinely so important. I think, when we're able to really be embodied and understand our inner experience, that we're then able to experience life as it was intended and with the fullness of emotion and the fullness of feeling. And so I feel like, yeah, I think I just love it, I think it's great, like, yeah, I think I just love it.
Speaker 1:I think it's great and that was powerful and a good new way to look at therapy, and so I was just very blessed by that. And so if you are in a place and you know your mental health is not where you want it to be, you're not thinking as he sees you, you're not seeing life through a single eye, then this prayer is for you Father in heaven Help me to see things through the single eye of what you have done. Put the blinders on so that all I can see is your finished work on the cross and how much you love me and how much you have healed me and your son. And if I need to learn about that healing, give me that single eye to see it. Thank you for doing this in Christ Jesus, in your name, amen. Thanks for listening to the episode and we will catch you next time on the Death to Life podcast.