Death to Life podcast
A podcast that tells the stories of people that used to be one way, and now are completely different, and the thing that happened in between was Jesus.
Death to Life podcast
#203 Justin Khoe pt 2!
This episode walks listeners through profound conversations about the intersections of faith, community, and personal growth amidst suffering. Richard and Justin share their experiences of grappling with public slander, understanding freedom in Christ, and navigating anxieties while encouraging a deeper connection with community and the gospel.
• Exploring the transformative power of the gospel
• The importance of sharing personal stories of faith
• Understanding suffering as an opportunity for growth
• The shift from a surface-level faith to deep spiritual maturity
• Emphasizing the necessity of community and support
• Addressing fears and trust in God during trials
• The call to love and forgive as Christ did
• Impact of public perceptions and slander on personal journeys
• Living boldly in faith amidst societal challenges
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The world doesn't think that the gospel can change your life, but we know that it can and that's why we want you to hear these stories, stories of transformation, stories of freedom, people getting free from sin and healed from sin because of Jesus. This is Death to Life.
Speaker 2:I'm leading, you know, teaching a bunch of pastors, and it was, it was a great experience. But I'm in the building and then, less than 24 hours later, this is when president Ted Wilson gets on a stage and starts calling love, reality out for all these different things. And now I'm being slandered in front of a worldwide audience and I'll be honest, man, it did not feel good. What would emerge from that whole season and I'm fast forwarding a bit through the story was that I developed a really severe Yo, welcome to the Death of Life podcast.
Speaker 1:My name is Richard Young and today's episode is with somebody we haven't had since what? Episode 7 or 8?, I don't know, it's episode 10.
Speaker 2:Episode 10.
Speaker 1:It's been a long time coming. We have Justin Koo. We haven't recorded the episode, so I don't know if it's appropriate for kids' ears. But just like any Death to Life episode, use discretion and discernment on where you listen to it. It's going to be about Justin's life, his story, what God has been doing and how he has been teaching him. So buckle up, strap in Love y'all, Appreciate, y'all. Listen to Justin. What's up, Justin?
Speaker 2:Hey man, Glad to be back.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's been fall of 2020. It's been a few years since we had your story on here. Now you've certainly been on here, I think, maybe three or four other times on, uh, you know the I think three Bible verse drafts which have been super fun and some internet church stuff that you've been on here.
Speaker 1:So you're no stranger to the death of life podcast, uh, and we get your teaching. But sometimes we just want to hear the story man, we just want to hear what's going on. So where did we leave off last time? What was going on? Had you? You hadn't moved to Hawaii, had you?
Speaker 2:We definitely didn't move to Hawaii, and I'm trying to remember. Maybe at the end of our last episode I either had the kid or we were about to have the kid, but it's now almost his fourth birthday, so it's certainly been a number of years. But yeah, we moved to Hawaii. We have a child, we've tried to have another child and that hasn't worked out according to our plan. We had a miscarriage along the way and we're still praying for and hoping for another one, but we are in the process of waiting, as it were man, I'm sorry to hear that about the miscarriage.
Speaker 1:Uh, as you look back on these years, because it's been how long have you lived in in kawaii?
Speaker 2:in kailua. Yeah, we've uh lived here for a little over three years now, or just about three years, sorry, not quite like you guys have lived there so long it feels like a whole lifetime yeah it there. It definitely is like a before and an after and, especially because this is where we've raised our kid, it's very much what we feel like is our life now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, and as I'm considering you know your story, your first episode. If there's one thing to learn in life, it is that Jesus loves you and laid his life down for you and freed you from sin. But sometimes I think about these last five years for me, or six years since 2019. And I'm like I feel like I've learned just as much about the gospel since learning the gospel, even though learning the gospel is like the most important thing in these five or six years about walking out, about growing about. Like I feel like I don't know, maybe I'm learning the one thing that changed my life, opened up the door to learning all of these other things about life and godliness. Do you feel similarly like that it's been so much that you've been growing and learning in these last years of doing this ministry?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, the focal point in my life has absolutely shifted. Ministry oh yeah, the focal point in my life has absolutely shifted. I remember when I first stumbled across this whole freedom message it was all I could think about and it was all honestly that I cared to think about, to teach, to study, etc, etc, etc. And I was like that for a couple of years where I just really wanted to understand as much as I could about freedom. All the commonly asked questions what were some of the Bible verses that maybe I had backwards, and so I was always searching for those types of things. And even just the way that that showed up in our Bible study communities on Sundays shout out to all those who go to that Good, good, we've been doing the Wave 1 Bible study for what? Five years now, something along those lines. Like every single Sunday, unless I'm traveling, I am focused on wave one content leading a conversation, responding to some of those questions that people ask and just helping guide people through this kind of gospel 101 thing.
Speaker 2:And over the last couple of years that has kind of been an autopilot experience, and I don't mean it in a bad sense, I just mean that it's no longer the thing that engrosses my attention because it's basically the foundation Now. It's just kind of the assumption, it's the air that I breathe and it's just the commonplace, normal way of moving around life. It's no longer novel to me to think, oh, I've been set free from sin. It's no longer difficult to believe that I've been forgiven. Righteousness being the very fruit of my union with God is not like weird to me, it's very, very, very normal. And so, in a real sense, I find myself shifting my attention to other things in my life now, and I think that this is actually a good thing.
Speaker 2:And maybe this is what you know Paul talks about, like move on from the milk, eventually get to the meat, kind of a thing, and I used to have that paradigm backwards. I used to think that the meat was like prophecy and this type of stuff, and maybe that's great and all. But what I'm finding at least now, what I'm sinking my teeth into, if you will, is just the everyday course of life. It's being keenly aware of how do I treat people, what are the motives of my heart, and it's a lot of these things that I think I don't know on my previous journey. I just wouldn't have paid as much attention to there were glaring big things that I needed to focus on. At least that was the perspective then. But what I'm finding now is that God is constantly bringing my attention to the air quotes, little things, and just to be able to experience the growth in that and the joy of being matured in that has been really, really fun.
Speaker 1:There's only one gospel right, and so it is just the gospel, the good news that Jesus has actually freed his people from their sin, and so. But then that foundation, now there's meat. So much of the time in our faith community, the meat has been these beasts in Revelation and Daniel Right, but it turns out, I think, in my experience I want to hear what you think that the meat has been more like the last few chapters of Romans where he teaches about loving each other, getting along with each other and learning how these two diverse communities Gentile believers in Jesus and Jewish believers in Jesus are to get along, and that's how they'll know that we're.
Speaker 2:Christians. Yeah, so in my former life, treating people nicely, turning the other cheek, growing in the fruits of the spirit, this was the milk. This was the stuff that I yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, get past it. Obviously, yes, we're supposed to love each other, and I would just kind of nod my head, but anxiously excited for what was going to come next. And what was going to come next was the prophetic studies. It was these deep things about things that I've never heard before, and I don't think that that's fair anymore. I don't think that that's actually the meat. I think it's fun.
Speaker 2:I enjoy a good prophecy Bible study as much as the next Adventist does, but what I'm really sinking my teeth into now it's the everyday stuff. It's the end of the book of Romans. It's that once you know the gospel like in light of knowing that you have died, you were buried and you have been resurrected by faith because of Jesus, once you know that, then the next follow-up part is the most exciting part. It's like well then, what do you do with this information? And sure part of that is you go tell people fair enough, but in the day-to-day what it then means is well, how do you live in light of these things being true, and we can look at that in the sense of like, well, since I'm free from sin, I no longer watch porn, because I'm actually free from it. Like sure, that's one of the ways that you live it out, but you also live it out in the points of friction. You live it out when it's inconvenient to you, you live it out when there's a cost, and this is one of those themes that has been percolating over the last couple of years, this idea of suffering with Christ.
Speaker 2:I used to think, with my kind of eschatological lens, my end time prophecy lens, that suffering with Jesus was all about standing up for the Sabbath truth and then being persecuted because of it.
Speaker 2:I'm like, okay, maybe that's part of it. You know, maybe that's what it means to suffer with Jesus. Maybe it means to literally be in front of a firing squad and that kind of a thing. And I'm more convinced now that what it looks like to suffer with Jesus is to not count trespasses against me. That is to say that in preaching the gospel, I may find myself experiencing the type of backlash that Paul received, and in so much that I do, one of the joys that I get to participate in is absorbing the offenses of those who would attack me and not counting it against them, praying for them, loving them and forgiving them before they ask or are even aware that they have need to be forgiven, just like our father did for us Right. And so, as God in Christ forgave me, I now forgive others from the heart, not because it's duty, but now I'm invited into the very experience of Jesus, which is to embody suffering on behalf of those that we love, and even those that we love that hate us.
Speaker 1:Does that make sense, man? It does make sense and I think you know we were talking about. We used to believe like prophecy is the meat we were talking about. We used to believe like prophecy is the meat. And prophecy preached in the wrong way, and even from the right motives, which we all know, the right intentions uh, you know that's the road that's paved to hell, you know is with right intentions.
Speaker 1:Um, even with the right intentions, prophecy preached the wrong way leads to fear, and we can look at a bunch of our churches that prophecy preach has not brought like, like fear of the end time judgment, or getting the mark of the beast or being persecuted because of a Sabbath belief like this or of a Sunday law or something like that hasn't brought the edification encouragement that maybe was intended but has actually brought fear edification encouragement that maybe was intended but has actually brought fear.
Speaker 1:And as I'm thinking about my life and seeing how you've lived your life, there has definitely been chances for fear to come in, for fear to come in, and it isn't fear for the end times are being marked, it's fear for man. I thought this was good news and everyone was going to love this, but they're mad and that puts my situation in jeopardy, because you know, the powers that be might not be down with what I'm saying. When did you and I don't want to put that on you, but I'm thinking it might have been a part of your experience. Have you experienced that and talk to me about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that this has been one of the recurring themes over the last couple of years, the theme of do I really trust that God keeps my life safe and secure? Trust that God keeps my life safe and secure, is he worthy of following? From the perspective of like the cost is worth it? Right, and the answer to that answer is an emphatic yes. But it doesn't mean that when life circumstance bubble up, that sentiment, that feeling right, that temptation, even it does emerge, meaning it still doesn't feel good when something happens and it feels like the future might be impacted as a result of this right. It's not wrong to feel this way. I would even offer the example I used in my Bible study. A week or two ago was over Christmas.
Speaker 2:I got, maddie, one of those National Geographic rockets, the one that you attach to like a tripod, and it's got a tube out the rear end of it, and then there's like a plastic bladder and you jump on the bladder and it shoots the rocket, you know, 30, 40, 50 feet in the air, something along those lines. Of course, if you're Mateo, it maybe just goes up five feet in the air because you're not heavy enough to to jump on the, the plastic bladder enough. But the other day I was sitting in front of the computer, as I tend to do for work. Next thing I know there's this shooting pain in my rear end, like my right side, my right cheek, literally, is just in in shooting pain. And I look down. I see maddie's mischievous little grin, because he knows that he got a reaction from dad. And I looked down and what he had done is he had set up the rocket to literally target my butt and jumped on it, and that was the reason for my pain.
Speaker 2:And what I was saying, what I use that illustration to say, is it's totally normal to feel pain when someone launches a plastic rocket into your side. It's normal, it's okay, right From there. I don't then smack him in the face or I don't, you know. Whatever the case is, like he's innocent in this respect, right, and so to me this is a metaphor of life happens and it can hurt. It's not wrong for you to feel hurt. It's not wrong for you to feel the sentiment that says, oh my goodness, what's going to happen for tomorrow, like I think about our friends who are in Southern California at the time of this recording. Shout outs to the ones who have been going through this. I don't know if you're supposed to say his name publicly or not.
Speaker 2:Yet Matthew, I don't know if he's going to listen to this Shout out to Matt, because his testimony has been powerful. Right, there's this photo that's been circulating in our community of his house that's literally burned down, right Like it's gone. All of his earthly possessions likely were in this building and it's now literally in flames. And his caption of the photo, if I remember right Rich, you can correct me is that is Jesus still Lord. Yes, he is Something along those lines, right, yeah?
Speaker 1:absolutely, he's awesome, or something like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's the sentiment. It's totally fine, when your house burns down, for you to grieve and to be sorrowful. It's okay for you to recognize that your thoughts move to the direction of, well, what's going to happen for the future, in light of all the housing insurance providers pulling out the week before the fire, what is this going to mean? So what I'm trying to offer is it's fair to ask yourself those questions and it's fair to feel the feelings that we would describe as anxiety and stress and maybe even fear for the future.
Speaker 2:Life happens. We feel a certain way, but the beautiful thing is is that, being stewarded by the spirit of God, is that he illuminates that this is our experience and then guides us back to placing our feet on the solid rock, which is Jesus again. Back to placing our feet on the solid rock, which is Jesus again. And I'll just say that that has been my experience over and over and over these past few years Opportunities to doubt the faithfulness of God, opportunities to lean into senses of anxiety and stress and fear for the future, and yet being able to constantly come back to this resounding truth that Jesus is still Lord, even in the middle of all these undesirable things.
Speaker 1:If you think about Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane or you think of Paul at the end of 2 Corinthians, where both of them are just like yo, this is not fun. Like Jesus is like, take this cup from me, Paul is like yo, take this thorn, remove it. And both times, God you know, his grace is sufficient and in our weakness we are strong, because we know that our strength is actually in the one who lives in us. We don't often talk about this. It probably. I don't think we've ever talked about it on the podcast. But a few years ago, like two years ago now, like the president of the institution of adventism, of the general conference, he got up in a meeting and and said that we, we lessen the power of Adventism of the general conference. He got up in a meeting and said that we, we lessen the power of sanctification and that we're a what is it? Hyper grace movement.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that we my phone was blowing up.
Speaker 2:Your obedience doesn't matter. That right? You know, the way that we live has no consequence, that all all these things so. So here's the. Here's the background context. A couple of years ago, I was invited to teach on social media ministry. Apparently, andrews University started a doctorate of media ministry and mass communication, something along those lines. I forget the exact term. Long story short, I was invited to teach, given what I do as far as a digital missionary and as an educator in this space, and so, really cool, I'm excited.
Speaker 2:So I went all the way to Maryland. I got dressed up. I even wore normal shoes. I didn't wear Crocs at this meeting because I wanted to dress to impress. I didn't wear a tank top as I'm leading class. I had a whole button down shirt. Actually, no, I had an Aloha shirt is what I was wearing. Um, but I'm taking it seriously.
Speaker 2:You know, I get to teach for a couple of hours. I'm in the general conference building in maryland silver, silver spring, I think, is where it's at. Yeah, some of the people who aren't raised administs are like what are all these details? Those who are in the know know what I'm, what I'm referring to. And so I get to teach, teach, which is really cool, man. I actually get to factually say now I've taught at a doctoral level. That's really fun. And so I'm leading, teaching a bunch of pastors this, this and this, and it was a great experience, super fun. I hope I get to do it again. It was wonderful.
Speaker 2:But I'm in the building and then, less than 24 hours later, this is when President Ted Wilson gets on a stage and starts calling love, reality out for all these different things. And you can listen to the address and anyone who's been a part of our community you know just listen to the words that he uses to describe what he thinks we're about and you tell me if these are true statements or untrue statements. But I'll let you come to your own conclusion when it comes to these things. But my point being is I was literally in the building and now I'm being slandered in front of a worldwide audience. You know, tens of thousands, if not even more, people know about this kind of a thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I'll be honest, man, it did not feel good. What would emerge from that whole season, uh and I'm fast forwarding a bit through the story was that I developed a really, uh, severe cough, one that I'm actually honestly, right now, even as I'm talking to you, holding back the cough. It was a chronic cough that lasted for like six months, oh wow, like constantly interrupting me like every other word. It was very, very bad. It was quite alarming and, truth be told, I'm still dealing with the effects of it today.
Speaker 1:Stress-induced. You believe?
Speaker 2:Sorry, yes, very much so induced. I was losing sleep, I was having all kinds of senses of anxiety and stress and all these different things, and this cough, no matter what I would do, would not go away. Uh, and it has not gone away, for, if what you said is accurate, two years now, like it's still a lingering cough that I'm, I, I'm dealing with, and all that to say is that my body has suffered as a result of this all and uh, it's not been fun. It's not fun to be lied about in front of people, in front of your community, in front of your family, in front of your friends, in front of your colleagues. It's, it doesn't feel good.
Speaker 1:No, it doesn't feel good and yet this is what you sign up for. We have this idea when we interview somebody on, talk about it in our community, because most of the time we're trying to minister to the community and to the people who are really frustrated with us. We would talk to anybody, but they don't come to talk to us. They'll talk about us and then invite us on their platform or whatever. So we really don't deal with it, but we are aware of it. And sometimes, if you bring somebody on either this podcast or whatever, we say, well, you got to count the cost right, and they most some of the time they'll be like, yeah, I get it. So we have this understanding that you have to count the cost.
Speaker 1:And when you, you love the gospel and you're like down, and then it happens where this thing happens, I was at church because it was a Saturday morning where he'd preach this message my phone's blowing up and part of me is like, yeah, we should just shrug this off, like this is what Jesus said would happen. And then part of me is like what you're saying? Like man, I don't like how I'm feeling. I am upset, I am bothered by this. Seems like it's dishonesty because it's not the full story.
Speaker 2:If it's not dishonest, yeah Well, first. If it's not dishonesty, then it's ignorance, right, and I prefer to think that it's ignorance, because I don't want to attribute malice when ignorance is a sufficient explanation.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So my position is that many of these individuals are just woefully ignorant to what we're actually about. I mean, it's a bizarre claim to say that our community does not care about how you live. Like that godly living doesn't matter. It's a wild thing to say that we downplay the role of quote sanctification if, if what one means by this is like the process of becoming more holy or living in a holy manner, because what is death to life if not over 200 episodes of people who have been set free from something like? Probably what?
Speaker 2:30 of these podcasts are people testifying of being set free from a pornography addiction, which is another way of saying they were enslaved to this and now, in light of what they've learned, their purpose in their heart never to touch it again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like we hear stories about forgiveness for betrayal and the, the hurt that comes from trauma and abuse. We're talking about reconciliation between spouses and parents. We're talking about people who have suffered greatly because of those in their lives, and the overflowing, abundant evidence is this that people in our community know that they've been forgiven, know that they've been set free, know that they're made forgiven, know that they've been set free, know that they're made whole and complete and therefore are purposing in their heart to live in this way towards others, at oftentimes great expense towards their own lives. So it's just a wild accusation to say that this community doesn't care about these things. It's just bizarre, it's properly ignorant. So I prefer just, I prefer just to say and I don't mean ignorant pejoratively, I mean like you literally are unaware, your ignorance is not a slam on intelligence, it's not at all information.
Speaker 2:Correct. I'm just trying to say that you know if for you to hold that position about our community and what what love reality teaches, you literally don't know what you're talking about, and so I'm inclined to believe that there's been misinformation that has spread, because you hang out in any one of our Bible studies for a couple minutes and you'll see immediately how, when someone asks a question and confesses to dealing with something, what do we do immediately? We immediately move them towards confession and repentance, like this is a very normal practice within our community. We do it. I'm I'm more surprised when we don't have a moment of confession or repentance within our community in a gathering. I'm more surprised when we don't have it than when we do have it. It's like that's how frequently we do it, right? So it's just bizarre to hear all these things. So, yeah, I just I don't want to, I don't want to. Uh, how do I want to say this? I, I, I don't want to hold in my mind the idea that they're actively lying.
Speaker 1:Yeah, even though that's what it feels like it is but the reason why we're bringing this up and we're not bringing this up to be like they did this we're bringing this up because of the meat, but walking out of the gospel is when these things happen, how do we deal with them? This is what. How do we move?
Speaker 2:I mean, this is part of the. The conversation is like, okay, well, what does our lord and savior do when slandered, when falsely accused? Did he defend himself or did he turn the other cheek? And this is literally. This is literally, maybe misapplied or rightly applied. Who's to say, you know? Time will tell. The Lord will ultimately reveal all. But it's our Lord's example of turning the other cheek. It's our Lord's example of not defending himself when wrongly accused, even at great cost to his personal safety right. He chose not to and instead chose to be about his father's business, and so it's his example that I'm reminded of in these moments.
Speaker 2:I put it on and I walk it out, even though it comes at great cost to me, both in the sense of my physical health because of all the anxiety that's going on that I'm still dealing with today, but it's also from the perspective of listen.
Speaker 2:I'm keenly aware that a major part of my living is made as I get to navigate these spaces. As an educator in the digital missions field, a large part of the beginning of my business was teaching Adventist ministries and pastors and people how to preach the gospel through the internet, and so there's a very real potential cost to my life, my ability to provide for my family. Putting food on the table, there's a real cost to it, and so, in these moments, the invitation from the Spirit has always been trust, trust, trust. Like there's, all these things are happening. Defending yourself is not the point, because you're, you're not in the business of yourself anyways, the, the goal is preach the gospel, preach the gospel, preach the gospel. So defense, uh, in those moments have felt out of bounds, and so disciplining myself according to the, the stewardship of the spirit, has meant being willing to endure these attacks, and by endure, maybe, another synonym for that is be willing to suffer.
Speaker 1:Okay, we want to take a real quick break on the episode. I want to tell you guys what has been going on with Love Reality this week. If you're listening to this on the day it drops, on Wednesday, you still have time to make it to Internet Church. We've been doing Internet Church every week for the last four weeks and this is the fourth week, and so we're kind of testing it out, seeing if we could Internet Church every week for the last four weeks and this is the fourth week, and so we're kind of testing it out, seeing if we could do it every week, seeing what you guys think, and we've had so much fun doing Internet Church four weeks in a row.
Speaker 1:So come out again Friday night at 8, central to the Zoom link, and of course we will have the after party. We are also having the Worthy of Everything Bible Study, the Milk Dudes we will be having that Good Good on Sunday and the Death to Life Bible Study and the Made New Bible Study on Monday and Wednesdays. Also, wednesday nights, Brother Eddie Cornejo has prayer meeting and so it would be awesome if you have a prayer request. You want some time in prayer. That would be a huge blessing for you to hit that up.
Speaker 1:And so that is what's going on this week in the Love Reality Universe. If you haven't downloaded the app, man, go download the app, study the devotionals. They're awesome, they're a huge blessing. I think you will be encouraged by them. So that is what's going on this week at Love Reality. Let's get back into the episode. Yeah, man, I cannot lie. There's been times in these last three years probably two times where I went on, indeed, and I was like I got to fend for myself, I got to find a job. I still indeed like the, uh, the resume website and.
Speaker 1:I've, I've. I've come to find out I'm qualified for nothing.
Speaker 2:Well, you have that rich experience at Amazon.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I did. I had education but I never taught and I was an administrator, even though I didn't have a master's, and so I've looked at that. But it's been from fear, right, it hasn't actually. And so I've gone there and then a couple of times Like there's the same fear.
Speaker 1:If you guys want to go back and hear Jonathan testify of when Eddie pulled Morgan into the back room and Jonathan literally went to take a break and was freaking out in the bathroom about his ministry, what was God? What is Eddie going to do to his ministry? And God quickly reminded him your ministry, yeah, yeah, uh. And so I think we've all been there and god has had to either, um, encourage us through each, through brothers in christ, or just like a word in that moment just be like bro, your life is not your own, like you've laid your life down. This is not about you. Uh, you, you don't have to be. Yeah. Can you give me an example of something like that happening, where, where you got centered back into like you were I don't know if you were freaking out or that anxiety that God's just revealed his love to you in a, in a real way?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, it's happened on on a meaningful number of occasions over the last couple of years. Because the way that this presents itself most acutely is the fear of tomorrow. Right, in light of all the attacks, in light of all the slander, in light of the bearing false witness, when it's appropriate to describe it as such, the fear that is evoked is well, what does that mean for tomorrow? And so, man, I'll tell you what. Man, when you live from fear, you don't live the way that God created you to live. Fear does not produce good fruit, and I've seen that bad fruit in my own personal life, like if I look in the mirror, so to speak. But I've also seen that fruit in my friendships and my relationships, work-wise. But the one that grieves me the most is in the way that I treat my wife when I lean into the fear that says tomorrow is is uncertain. Therefore, you ought to fear and you ought to live with panic and you lot to you know hustle to secure your own life.
Speaker 2:I find myself treating the people that I love the most in a manner that's completely unfitting me. I act impatiently, right, I speak harshly, and I find myself in those moments being rebuked by the Lord saying, hey, hold on. First off, no right, like that's out of bounds. But two, what's going on? And the what's going on often returns back to well, what do I believe right now? Do I believe that I'm actually safe and secure? Do I actually believe that God has a plan for my life? Or might I momentarily accepted the lie that says I need to secure my own, I need to go get it, I need to do it for myself because no one else is going to do it for you.
Speaker 2:And I find that when I lean into that sentiment, when I lean to that, when I say sentiment, lean into that sentiment, when I lean to that, when I say sentiment, I'm trying to uh, describe the bodily since, excuse me, the bodily sensation that one experiences in a moment.
Speaker 2:So, for example, I think that this is this might be helpful for someone you know what it's like to feel in your body, the sensation that follows lustful thinking, like there's a bodily sensation that arises, like your body literally responds to lust in a particular way.
Speaker 2:I would offer that the same thing happens when you lean into fear and anxiety about the future, and I would maybe even be willing to say extrapolate across a whole host of temptations that we can become more and more aware that they have corresponding physical sensations. For example, when one is angry, you can put yourself back into that state of being where you remember what it feels like your face gets flush, your fist clench, your body gets all tense right Like your adrenaline starts to course. So there's a physical bodily experience that is associated with anger. I'm saying that there's a physical bodily sensation, or a sentiment is the word that I've been employing up to this point. I'm just describing it to be a little bit more clear to the listener that when I believe the lie of scarcity, there's a physical correspondence in my body that causes me to live in a certain way.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And tying back to the previous thing. It's okay to feel that, but the beauty of it all is being free from it. Is that, even though I feel it, I can have a discernment to know that that feeling is not actually who I am, it is not true on this cosmic level, of who I am right and that these feelings have no power over me, because I've been set free from them so that I'm free from living sensually, I'm free from living in a manner that is dictated by my senses. And these sentiments, these feelings that I'm experiencing because of misplaced faith, I'm free from them. You know one of the things that happened to me where this became the most clear this separation between what my body experiences and what I know to be true and what I give myself over to.
Speaker 2:I was in Florida, maybe about a year ago, and in the middle of preaching a sermon, like we're talking about the divine service, I'm up on stage, I'm preaching. You know where the story is going. Yeah, I hear from my right ear what sounds like a radio and in my brain I'm putting two to two together really quickly. I'm thinking, oh, maybe one of the production assistants for the program turned their volume up on their headset. Maybe they're trying to indicate to me that I'm over time, or fill in the blank, I don't know.
Speaker 2:So I look to my right and there are three to four men and women in full like tactical gear. We're talking about body armor. There was a it was, I say, swat team, but I don't think it was actually a swat team. I think it was a police force, but they're in full tactical gear. There are rifles pointed at my face and the lead guy is shouting get on the ground, get on the ground, get on the ground, get on the ground. This is not a sermon illustration. This is literally true, like this is literally an experience that happened to me, I think a year ago somewhere in that realm, and so I very matter of fact, it's on live stream if you want to search for it. I say, um, there's a guy with a gun here and he's telling me to get on the ground. So I put my hands up and I just prostrate myself on the floor.
Speaker 1:In the video. You're super cool. It's like all right guys, we ought to listen to what they say. They've got firearms.
Speaker 2:And, as I think, through excuse me this is the chronic cough.
Speaker 2:This is what it's been like. It's been a lot worse. This is the chronic cough. Yeah, this is what it's been like. It's been a lot worse. This is one of the better seasons it's been.
Speaker 2:But in the middle of all this, as I think through what I was feeling and what I was actually experiencing in my body, I was cool as a cucumber. That's a weird phrase, I don't know why people use that phrase, but I was actually chilling. Like what you see on the screen was actually how I felt, in the sense that like, oh, there's a guy with a gun. He's telling me to get on the ground. It felt like I was registering. Oh, that lady's shirt is green and she's waving at me. It was very matter of fact. I wasn't pressed in my spirit, right this the way that I I would characterize it in my spirit. I was like okay, well, this makes sense. I got to get on the ground.
Speaker 2:Now, what's funny about this whole story? By the way, everything turned out to be okay. It seemed like there was a suspicious looking person carrying suspicious looking objects into the church, and a neighbor saw it and called the police. They swarmed the building. The whole church was halted. Everyone was on the ground. Cops were running around with, you know, full tactical gear. They swept the building. Couldn't find anyone. We're guessing what happened is because it was a digital missions conference, that someone probably unloaded their trunk of their car with a bunch of tripods and like things that might have looked like a rifle, perhaps entering the building we're not 100 certain. Like they looked at security cameras and they couldn't figure it out. Um, but long story short, swept the building. We're fine.
Speaker 2:What was funny about it is, at that time I was wearing, um, one of these smart devices, uh, called a whoop. You ever seen heard of whoop rich? Yeah, I have. Whoop is for those who are, uh, don't know. Whoop is like a, a smart device tracker that measures, you know, a number of different things and it's usually used in the realm of athletics to monitor your recovery, your heart rate, stress levels. So that way, you know, should I take it a little bit lighter today? Should I work really, really hard? Should I do a double workout? Fill in the blank. It's. It's one of those types of things and it has the ability to measure stress in an exact moment where it's like timestamped. We're at two, 22 today, you are at an X level of corresponding stress.
Speaker 2:Well, I open up the data and it says that, at the time of this moment of being swatted, for lack of a better definition my stress level, my body registered stress at the highest level that it has the ability to measure it at. Oh, my level, that it has the ability to measure it at, oh my. So my body is experiencing immense stress, the highest possible registered stress that this thing has the ability to measure. Yet in my spirit, I'm actually chilling, like I'm actually okay, I'm in peace, while rifles are pointed at my face.
Speaker 2:And it's this lesson that has resurfaced quite a number of times over the years, which is there is this really appropriate division and I'm not talking about the duality of man in this respect, but I'm just talking about what I know to be true and what I experience in my spirit are different than what I experience in my body, are different than what I experience in my body. My body can go through great stress, can feel all the sensations of anxiety and fear and fill in the blank all the things I was just describing, and yet I can move with peace that passes understanding, and this has been one of the insights that has been so meaningful over the last couple of years, because every time there's a new hit piece on YouTube, every time I see a new post that says these guys are doing this, this, this and the other thing, every time that people just you know literally lie about me and come for my life and come for or speak about me in a way that causes me to think differently about my future. My body experiences something, and I'm still experiencing it to this day. It's not fun, I don't desire it for anybody, and yet what I've learned is that those physical sensations don't have any power over me. In fact, I can still move and steward my life through peace and abundance and freedom and security in what Jesus has accomplished for me, so that, I mean, this has just been really instructive about how, maybe what, maybe what we've meant all along with the notion of feelings.
Speaker 2:Aren't, lord, right? Feel all the feelings that you want to feel. That's what they're there for. You're meant to feel them. Feelings are meant to indicate something, but at the end of the day, you don't live from them, they're not the dictator of your life, and so feelings aren't Lord. Jesus is Lord. This has been one of those things that has been drilled into me time and time and time again over the last couple of years, which is no. God is good. He keeps me safe. I can, in fact, trust him. He's got good plans for my life and I can call a spade a spade. It sucks to go through the kinds of things that I've had to endure over these last couple of years in light of preaching the gospel.
Speaker 1:We're getting the whole human experience. We're getting all of it yeah and uh.
Speaker 2:Sorry, I want to jump in again. This is what we see on on. I know that this is your podcast, but this is my podcast now it's your podcast.
Speaker 2:I am the captain now um, this is what we see with jesus in the garden of gethsemane. Right, yeah, like. What does this story reveal, other than jesus, in his body, experiences deep anguish, to the point of sweating great drops of blood. Like in his body, everything was crying out don't do this. The. The desire to protect self, the desire to avoid pain, the. The desire just to go home. Right, like the old song would say, he could have called 10,000 angels. Right, right, right, right In his body, he's experiencing this anguish and yet is moving with the sense of resoluteness that this is absolutely what he's called to do and he will do it. So that I'm offering that to experience the bodily sensations that we associate with these varying circumstances does not speak loudly enough to disqualify you from your father's love. And what I mean by this is man, like I was talking to someone shout outs to Allie from that Good, good Bible, study, allie.
Speaker 2:If you ever end up listening to this, someone who's been a part of our communities, coming back and forth, you know, over the years she asked a question. She's saying you know, what do you do with mixed motivations. It's like oh, tell me more. It's like, you know, I used to, for example, study my Bible all the time out of a sense of duty and fear that you know I was not going to be pleasing to God if I didn't do X, y, z. And now I know that that's not true. But I still have these moments where I recognize I have mixed motivations. Should I do it, should I not do it?
Speaker 2:And ultimately what we landed on is like, hey, you're free from sensual living, you don't even have to judge yourself by what your body experiences. So motives are not. It's kind of missing the point. Why are we living sensually, as though that the only justified way to spend time with the Lord is when you feel it and that, since you don't feel it and you might be afraid of doing it by duty, that it's somehow disqualified? No, no, that's not how it works, you know, and it's the same thing, like I think about other people in our community who say you know what I'm holding on.
Speaker 2:I believe I've been set free and yet, even though I believe I'm not experiencing it, and more and more and more, I think what I'm beginning to realize is that when people say things like this, what they really mean is that they're not feeling it Meaning well, if I've been set free from lust, then I shouldn't experience any lustful thoughts anymore. And I don't know that that's true. I don't know that we could honestly say that Jesus was tempted in all ways, yet without sin, that he knows what it's like to be subject to the weak and frail human experience, so that clearly Jesus had to have experienced temptation in his body as well, because temptation in theory only is nowhere near as potent as temptation that you experience within your actual body. Sensation wise, right, so I don't know. Just like this, this understanding that there's a division between what the body experiences and what is true in christ, that has been a life-giving revelation for for the last couple of years.
Speaker 1:Amen. Yeah, whether we feel it in our body or not, the truth is the truth. Right, he says in Ephesians 6, to put on the belt of truth. I was reading that today in my Bible study. The belt of truth, the helmet of salvation, the breastplate of righteousness, all of these things are just different aspects of the life of Jesus. Jesus has given us himself. And so when we put on that belt of truth meaning we just live through, well, yeah, Jesus is the truth Does that mean we won't feel certain things?
Speaker 1:Who's to say we might feel a certain way about it? And yet Jesus is still Lord, Jesus is still alive, and that's the what is it? The shield of faith. It's all right there. So we live through that. So there's been plenty of opportunities to speak out and be frustrated and be upset with, you know, fault finders or people who are not operating in good faith. How have you moved in and how's God been teaching you and giving you discernment and wisdom in responding to what people say that they're not coming from a place of actual interest or good faith, but their fault finding, hmm um, I guess the first thing I would say is I'm not confident that I've done it perfectly.
Speaker 2:Um, this is one of those things where I'm I'm attempting to be very mindful that there's room for growth, right, so not trying to defend every exchange or the moments where I've chosen not to engage, but just simply to say this is something that I think that I'm still trying to learn, I'm still trying to grow in, but I take solace that Jesus did not seem to feel obligated to respond to everyone who wanted him to give an answer. There are entire moments in the gospel narrative where Jesus just ducks out like a ninja. There's this one section in scripture where it's like and now the guys, the religious leaders, they wanted to kill him and so he hit himself and he just like, basically disappeared, like the, the uh. The imagery in my brain is like, you know, the naruto throws a smoke bomb on the ground and then just is gone, like that's kind of how jesus is. Sometimes he just avoids, or sometimes, uh, the religious leaders the text will literally say, ask him a question to test him, like they have an ulterior motive with the question, not just general curiosity and trying to hear actually what he thinks, and in those moments Jesus seemingly does not give a straight answer.
Speaker 2:Actually, oddly enough, jesus rarely seems to give a straight answer. He seems to ask a lot more questions and provide answers. It just seems that if I follow the model of Jesus, it seems like one of the core operating principles is is this person acting in good faith or not? Because, you know, even if it's under cover of darkness, jesus gives straight answers to Nicodemus, like he actually says right, and he explains. And so even it being secretive is not the point. You know, scoring points seemingly is not the point for Jesus at all, right, and so it seems to be that what Jesus cares about is hey, is this person sincere or not? And when they're not, it seems like Jesus has a very low tolerance for this type of duplicitous behavior and is actively disinterested in engaging in vain conversations, to quote Paul.
Speaker 2:But when someone is open, in whatever way that he determines they are genuinely open, I mean, jesus goes in, and he goes in with tenderness and care, but he also goes in in a straight manner, like he'll say it for what it is. And so, um, that's what I strive to do. I strive to, uh, intentionally, um, discern is this coming from a, from a genuine place, or is it not? And if it isn't, then I'm much more inclined, um, you know, to give one layer of response and keep it moving. I try to avoid unfruitful back and forth and, generally speaking, it seems as though most online discourse, like in the comment sections, tends to be of that nature. Right, just because it's a terrible medium for that kind of conversation. What is so attractive about the comment section? What's the appeal? I know I go to it. Why michael jackson eating popcorn? Man, it's drama. So we just want to see what's going on it's a dopamine rush.
Speaker 1:Is that what it is?
Speaker 2:we're seeing these people fight and we're like, yeah I'll tell you what, being on the receiving end of it. It is not a dopamine rush, it is a cortisol rush. It is immensely stressful. It is not fun at all.
Speaker 2:Um, and you know, over the last couple of um, last month or two, in particular at the time of this recording I've chosen to lean in a lot more, at great cost to my sanity and my health. Like there was a three-day period where I was averaging like three hours of sleep just because of how much it took from me and the difficulty it is to turn your brain off when all the alarms are going off right, are going off right, and so it has a. If you've ever man, it's hard. If you've never been in the position, I don't know that it's easy to relate to. But maybe you've ever looked at your pastor or some other figure that's a leader in some way, shape or form, like, oh, here's an example. This is not a political statement, just wanted to couch the analogy. But remember how Obama looked before he was president and then how he aged dramatically after. Yeah, there's a physical cost to stress, right? Yeah, absolutely. And I guess I could have used any president for that example. It seems like most presidents after their term of serving.
Speaker 1:But they say black don't crack, and it seemed like he did eat crack a little. That's not racism, that's just, eddie. Take that out.
Speaker 2:What's funny is that we're actually going to hear this part where you say, eddie, take it out, and he's not going to have taken it out. Dang, eddie, I'm getting canceled.
Speaker 1:It's just because it did look like he aged quite a bit, and the the joke is that black people and asian people do not look like they age at all yeah, so yeah, man, it's just.
Speaker 2:Where was I going with this um?
Speaker 1:the stress it took a toll on him. You could tell like, yeah, yeah, living with that is heavy yeah, and and and.
Speaker 2:okay, so the comment sections, like it produces cortisol. It is a stressful experience. It is not something that I want to do. I lost sleep, I had a great degree of anxiety from the perspective of like I had a lot of sentiments and feelings of anxiety, like quite a bit to the point where I couldn't sleep. You know, and it's just, it's just not fun. So I don't know what it is about the comment section, but, um, in a weird way, I I sense that part of what God is inviting me into in this next season of um online ministry is actually to be more present in the comment section. As as odd as that is, as much as I don't want it and as stressful as it is and as damaging as it is to my actual physical health, what I make of it all is that there is a window, there's a season in which I'm actually called to endure this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, and the encouragement is I've received messages. I'm actually going to preach tomorrow in Chattanooga. And there's going to be somebody there because of the comment section. Oh really, yeah that. Saw the comments and was like, yeah man, this doesn't seem. Seems like these guys are onto something.
Speaker 2:On that note, this is just sharing fun stories. I hope it really doesn't come across as like me patting myself on the back, because not at all the reason why I'm bringing it up. But I got a DM from a pastor in a conference that I won't name because I don't care to put his life on blast. But he sent me a DM in the middle of all this noise and he said I've been watching the way that you interact and actually how do you say it? I think he said I heard a lot of the rumors about you and I thought it was odd because I met you and my son. My son and I met you at a conference that you spoke at a number of years ago and even though I don't follow your ministry, my son says that your ministry has been a really meaningful thing for him. He showed me several of your videos and that he's been blessed by your videos. So I've been hearing a lot of the accusations against you and then I've been reading your comments and it just doesn't seem to add up. And so he says you know what? I've decided that I'd like to attend your bible study just so I could see for myself what you're doing. I was like, bro, that's so cool, like that is so fair, like I get that when you hear people in positions of authority say things like the default is to take it at face value, that just makes sense, like I'm not even knocking it, but just to be like you know what, before I cast someone out in my own brain, I'm going to do some due diligence, I'm going to just show up and see what's what. So for the last couple of weeks, this pastor has been showing up in my Bible study and been rocking with it and like it's just been really, really cool. And I know what are some of the trigger points in our studies. So I always pause and say, hey, does anyone got a question? Anyone worried about this? Does anyone just, you know, want to push back on this idea? And then I'll say, hey, you know so-and-so. You know, I would love to hear what you think, and I'm even like just priming the pump because I know that this has the potential to be heard wrong or interpreted wrong or just outright just be something that people disagree with, and fair enough If that's where they come down.
Speaker 2:In every single one of the opportunities that I give this brother, he comes in and he's just like nah, man, like, I'm there with you. You know, a couple of years ago this would have made me feel really uncomfortable, but what I'm hearing you say is X, Y, Z. And he's like is that what you're saying? And I'm like yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. And he's just like feeling really confident with it. And God bless this guy. He sent me a message literally yesterday. He's like hey, man, um, we're thinking about doing an evangelistic series. Would you consider coming out and preaching for this evangelistic series? And it was just like whether I say yes or no is not the point, but just the idea of like man, God bless this guy for coming to see himself and coming to his own conclusion. It was just, it just felt really, really cool.
Speaker 2:All that to say, that happened in part because of the comment section, and so you know, there's a very real sense in which online discourse feels uh, meaningless, in the sense of like it doesn't accomplish anything. And I think when you measure the success of a Facebook comment section based off of did you convince your opponent, Did you win the argument, Like, then there's a near 0% chance, right? Yeah, but in the same way that when Jesus chose to engage. It seems as though he engages for the crowd and not for the antagonist. That's kind of what I sense God is wanting to do through me showing up specifically on Facebook and in the comments section. I'm like this is my least favorite platform. This is the one that causes me the most grief and yet, yeah, that's what I feel like is important to spend time doing in this season.
Speaker 1:Man as we're wrapping this up. I've been in Ephesians recently and this is the last kind of thing Paul says, after he talks about the armor of God that we're put on because we're dealing with an evil age and we're not fighting against human beings but of principalities and powers against human beings but of principalities and powers. He says this Praying at all times in the spirit, with all prayer and supplication to the end, keep alert, with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints and also for me, that words may be given to me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel. So Paul's saying yo guys, people in Ephesus, pray for all the saints and pray for your boy. Pray for your boy and pray that I open my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel. And then he says in verse 20, for which I am the ambassador in chains he's in prison as he's writing this to the people in Ephesus that I may declare it boldly, as I ought to speak, so that you also may know how I am and what I'm doing In a real sense.
Speaker 1:We have not been persecuted in the same way as Paul has been persecuted. We've not been shipwrecked, snake bit beat, 40 lashes minus one or 39 I don't know the number, um, but it works differently in in the 21st century. Uh, you're now shamed online. You're now uh ratioed online. Um, I lost my job. You uh, there's there's been.
Speaker 2:You've lost things that you used to do, that you know those things have dried up, oh, yeah, I mean to put a plan like the noise has cost me significant amounts of uh income, like there have been actual contracts I landed that I was depending on for a meaningful part of my annual income and it has been completely dried up due to some of this noise. So like there's a very real cost to it for sure.
Speaker 1:So I guess, moving forward and we look back and we're like, yeah, but freedom, would we do it again? A hundred percent, yeah, yeah, no doubt. And then, at the same time, pray for your boy that we may continue to speak boldly about the mystery of the gospel that has been revealed to us in Jesus Christ. Is that, does that? Do you feel like? Yeah, paul, I'm down with that. That's what I'm feeling as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, 100%. I think that's one of the things that has been so meaningful throughout these years. Is the body Like one of the things and I don't mean my physical body, I mean like the body of Christ, the believers yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we've been talking a lot about the physical body, but what has become more and more and more important to me as I've spent the last three years here in Hawaii is the physical community that I get to do life with my goodness. What we do on the internet is awesome, rich, I love being able to show up every Tuesday with you on the Whatabouts and do Bible studies with Ame and Annabelle on Sundays, and I love being able to do internet church with all the home, like. There's a lot that we do on the online and I love it, and I'm thoroughly convinced that we want to do more and more and more and more of it In so much that the Lord allows us to, and there is so much to be blessed by being connected in an in-person community. Yeah, and here in Kailua man, it has been, without exception, the most meaningful in-person community that I've had since receiving the gospel. It's been awesome. There have been other families that have kiddos and the parents that I love deeply. There's church members that I've been absolutely an encouragement, obviously, getting to spend most days of the week hanging out with Ed and Jonathan and their families. It's just, it's amazing, I don't know. Well, I have confidence that, even if I didn't have this community, the spirit would be enough to steward me in righteousness right. I'm convinced that, even if I was on an island, god is faithful, and in this season of life, I'd say that one of the ways that God has been abundantly faithful is through the community that I have in person here, and so I guess that's maybe one of the last themes that I would say is important for our community, and I would actively state this as a suggestion for everyone.
Speaker 2:Listening, listening to podcasts is wonderful. It really is. We learn a lot from each other and it's fantastic. The circles, all the things that we do. I love it, obviously, clearly, because it's what I do every single day. I wouldn't do it if I didn't love it. And man get connected with a community of people, even if it's one person to begin with. It's so, so, so important. Having people who can remind you of who you are, having people who can, uh, that you can lean on in moments of weakness, in moments of stress and anxiety, people that you can turn to when you feel a bit lost and that God could work through, is is so important. And so, yeah, I don't know. I don't know how I forget how we got here but get connected with community. Find people near you that are walking with the Lord and allow them to speak into your life. Give them permission to challenge you, to rebuke you, to encourage you, and all the ways that is prudent for the body of Christ to do so.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it was the poet slash songwriter Kid Rock who said you got to get in the pit and try to love someone. You know what I'm saying. Maybe maybe not. Justin. Justin man, seeing you operate and how you've been living your life and your friendship, I was telling Natalie the other day I was like I'm I said I'm a JCoup fan boy Cause I was like reading all these responses on Facebook.
Speaker 1:And I was like oh, I was like, oh, that's it, and maybe I'm the choir, so maybe that's easy Cause what you're preaching, but just seeing you and doing the whatabouts and just that, good, good, all that we've been doing. You are leading the way, uh, loving people, taking the time, listening Uh, I still wear the I'm listening gear. I have it downstairs. Um, it's you're, you're a blessing to, to our community and, uh, we've seen your good works and we're glorifying our father in heaven because of it. So, yeah, man, thanks for being vulnerable. I don't think I've ever heard you talk like this, uh, because it's we haven't had the second episode of the of of death to life, and now we have it.
Speaker 1:And so thanks for being vulnerable and sharing your heart and, uh, and impressing upon us that God is actually able to, even even while we're shipwrecked, while we're snake bit, while people are hating that, uh, we can still operate with the peace that passes understanding. So thank you for sharing that with us today, my man.
Speaker 2:Happy to do so. Thanks for inviting me back on.
Speaker 1:Yes, sir.