Death to Life podcast
A podcast that tells the stories of people that used to be one way, and now are completely different, and the thing that happened in between was Jesus.
Death to Life podcast
#213 Jake Hotchkiss, What Happens After You Discover the Truth About Your Identity in Christ?
Jake Hotchkiss returns to share how understanding the finished work of Christ has deepened in the years since publishing "No Longer I" and what he's learned about relying on God's strength through valleys and mountains.
• The initial revelation of the finished work creates a spiritual high that inevitably fades as life continues
• Knowledge of our righteousness in Christ creates a foundation that gives our spiritual life traction
• Our weaknesses aren't obstacles but opportunities to discover God's strength working through us
• Many believers stop bringing their honest feelings to God after receiving the finished work revelation
• The flesh represents not just our physical bodies but everything pertaining to the earthly realm
• The upcoming revised edition of "No Longer I" addresses common questions and clarifies concepts
• Learning to walk in Christ means accepting our inability to change our circumstances and resting in Him
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Yo, welcome to the Death to Life podcast. My name is Richard Young and today's episode is one I loved. Why? Because we're catching back up with Jake Hotchkiss. Jake Hotchkiss, my friend, my brother from Missouri. He was on here a couple years ago, a few years ago, and it was such a blessing and he wrote the book called no Longer I. He's put some new stuff in the book. We talk about it and we just talk about growing and maturing in Christ. And Jake has been man, he's just been a brother to me personally in my life and so, hearing what he's been up to, hearing how God is blessed and how he's added some new cool stuff to no longer, I think you're going to love this conversation. I think you're going to be blessed by this conversation. I think you're going to grow from it. So let's just jump into this episode. Jake Hotchkiss, buckle up and strap in Love y'all, appreciate y'all. Up and strap in Love, y'all, appreciate y'all. Okay, I haven't gone back to see when we recorded. Do you know what year it was? The?
Speaker 2:first time you were on here? No, but I bet it was three years ago.
Speaker 1:Three years ago Probably, and when did you first publish? No Longer I.
Speaker 2:December of 2020 is when I finished published that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, December of 2020.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's been over four years.
Speaker 1:Man, I remember Eddie texting me. We were reading the book. We were so pumped and we're like maybe we could get him on the podcast. And then you came on the podcast and then since then we've hung out maybe once or twice, but have become friends since then. Man, what has life been? Talk to me about? What has life been like in these last three years that we haven't been hanging out? Just give me all the three years. But actually, just what have you been hearing about how the book has been blessing people in these the three years? Uh, but not. But actually just uh, what have you been hearing about how the book has been blessing people in these last three years?
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, um, it's been cool, like um, it's kind of just spread by word of mouth, you know, as of yet I haven't put anything into marketing it or promoting it, I've just trusted that God would kind of use it that way. Um, and some cool stories about how, what that's even led to, which I'm sure that we'll get to. But, um, but, like you know, with people who receive it like I did, you know, or like you did, or whatever, it's just like kind of this earth shattering, like how did I never see this, you know? And so that that story continues to be the case, I think, for anyone who's just not been acquainted with like the finished work before. And so those stories are always really cool and I would say just like similar, you know, in terms of like the initial reaction that you hear from from new people all the time, um, um. But then there's like I think what's what's a little bit more interesting at this point to me is like how does it like, what does it do in someone's life after that initial phase of of this new crazy revelation, you know, cause, um, you get really pumped. And then it's like I always compare it to like the clouds part and you see the sun and, oh my gosh, he's there, you know, and it's true. And then, like you, have this high of the initial revelation, but then, like life, you know, continues to be life and the clouds cover the sun again, and you've got to figure out how to like, maintain, like, through the renewal of your mind, this revelation through trials. You know that it's not like your life just gets easy, you know, and, and so that's when it kind of becomes real and the faith is tested. And so I think, I don't know, I've just, every additional year that goes by, you know, I feel like I gain more experience in my own life of of how to work these things out.
Speaker 2:And getting to see in my church, to like, I think for me I just see um every day or every week anyway, um, you know this, this theology, um, uh, that I put forth in no longer I is like it pervades all of our conversations in our church, and you see how, um, what we understand, has helped us. You see where we haven't quite gotten it yet, and you see, you know what I mean, like um, and then you're still left to sometimes wonder okay, like I, we clearly still have things to learn because we're still not bearing the full fruit of God. You know what I mean, and and when I say that, I don't even just mean in terms of, I'm not thinking just in terms of knowledge, you know. I'm thinking in terms of like, uh, actually walking out that knowledge and getting established in it, so that we're not double-minded, and um, and, and. So I think for me, man, maybe one thing I could say is that, um, in the past two to three years, what's become overwhelmingly obvious to me and I think this is like a, an additional nuance to my understanding that the Lord has has led me into um with the finished work is that all of that knowledge is like I do believe it's actually um, it's like foundational, you know, um, I, I, I think it's foundational Um, but um, it's for the purpose of being able to confidently draw near to God with a clean conscience, that we might learn to lean on him and rely on him and rely on the strength of his spirit at all times.
Speaker 2:And you still have to learn that. And just because you have this knowledge doesn't mean you've learned that. You know. This knowledge is what I, is, what kept me from, or I would say, lack of this knowledge right, or the lies that were in place, you know, years ago, those are what kept me from drawing near to God with confidence. You know with full assurance that I was clean, right, because if, in any way, shape or form, you don't believe you are righteous, as he is righteous, you cannot be in his presence Like intuitively, you've been built to know that, you cannot stand confidently before him and you cannot get what you ask for, and so forth, if your will is not what his will is right. So your own conscience, your own heart, condemns you when that's the case.
Speaker 2:And so I think this is why the revelation of the finished work, why the revelation of our righteousness and you know, however, a hundred different ways we could say it. It's the reason it's so important, is it still goes back to this thing we've always known, which is that we have to learn how to rely on God. It's just that this is the foundational piece that's actually made it possible, you know, and while we knew that our sins were forgiven, you know, by Jesus, what a lot of us didn't know me for a long time was that, beyond just being forgiven, I was actually no longer guilty. I'm actually a new man in whom there is no sin, and that's the necessary piece of it that has you know that you have to get established in, to really then begin every moment of the day, whether it's in the midst of temptation, whether it's even immediately after you've sinned, whether it's in the darkest trials, or whatever. That's what you need to, to never sort of turn away and separate yourself from him, which which inevitably, inevitably, leaves you relying on your own strength. And God has orchestrated, he has destined that mode of living to fail, of relying on your own strength will always fail, because the only way he made it possible to obey him and to bear fruit and whatever, was actually by depending on him, totally Right. So so I think it's just been helpful because, like the need to rely on God and depend on God and, um, lean on him for strength, like that, that understanding, that that is what's necessary to bear the fruit of the spirit, um, and to be transformed into his image that's an understanding that I had for many years. Like so that's not a new revelation for me and to be transformed into his image, that's an understanding that I had for many years. Like so that's not a new revelation for me, so to speak. I had that before the finished work. It's just that the finished work I didn't realize how many lies were actually keeping me from from doing that Right and um, and so the finished work cleaned up so much of those lies and now truth is the thing that really enables me, anytime I'm thinking clearly, to do that and kind of understand what that looks like more constantly. But it doesn't change the fact that that's still the way. You know what I mean, that relying on him is still the way, and so I think one way I've learned to think of this is like there was send you now, therefore, out into the world to proclaim the gospel to all nations.
Speaker 2:This is like Luke's version of the Great Commission. And he says he defines the gospel really succinctly as repentance for the forgiveness of sins. That's like that's the totality of what Jesus says. They are sent to preach repentance for the forgiveness of sins. That's like that's the totality of what Jesus says. They are sent to preach repentance for the forgiveness of sins. And there was something really humbling about that for me.
Speaker 2:Um, because you know I write a book, you know, with the subtitle like uh, the gospel. Like you've never heard of the power of the gospel, like you've never heard it before, you know, and kind of under this whole thing, like this is the gospel, you know, and yet it's like, well, what I wrote and still very much believe is again it's foundational, is it's a further expounding upon those things, but there's something actually to just the pure simplicity of repentance for the forgiveness of sins, that if we get that and all that's wrapped up in that, it is all we need to know to um, to bear the fruit of God, you know, and to live righteously like we desire to do Um, so that you know. It's humbling just to and to always, all this reminding me that all of this knowledge is meant to lead me back to something you know, to someone really, and still have more to learn in terms of the way.
Speaker 1:You know, what you've just kind of described is what we've been going through in our community. I joke that when I kind of understood freedom from sin and what Jesus had finally accomplished at the cross, I arrived somewhere, but I didn't realize that where I had arrived was the beginning. Yeah, I thought like, because I didn't understand all of this stuff, I was trying to arrive to some point, being able to be, you know, to go to heaven one day, or something like that. But what I arrived was, oh, I'm, this is the beginning of Christian maturity, this is the start. And so we have all of these episodes this is probably going to be episode 2, 11, 12, or 13.
Speaker 1:And all of these are stories of people who are walking in legalism or walking in licentiousness, and then the gospel comes through and it shines a light and they're oh, their life has changed. And for the last few years, people have been like okay, talk to us about walking it out, talk to us about walking out, how do we walk this thing out? And so I've been bringing back guests who have been on this journey. Like you said, your book came out in 2020. The year before 2019 is when I got this thing and when I first started working with Love, reality was right around December of 2020, february 2020.
Speaker 1:And so we're like working on this thing and we're trying to figure it out and we're realizing, oh, this is the foundation, this is the baseline, this is the beginning, and now I'm growing and sometimes people get frustrated because they want to feel that feeling that they had when they read no longer I for the first time, when they're like, oh, my goodness, and I say you know what? I don't think we're ever going to get back to that feeling of the biggest news and revelation that you've ever received in your life hitting you. I don't think that's gonna. We're ever gonna get going to get back to that feeling. But now that that truth is our foundation, that everything is built on, yeah, that's a I mean man.
Speaker 2:I just think that that's a great way of putting it and it's like it's kind of I mean there's. There's so many scriptures that come to mind, but one of them is, like Paul saying you know, we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up but love builds up. And he says whoever thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. That's a really interesting verse. You know like, and I think there's this temptation when we receive this revelation, to think we know something you know, and it's like, well, we all have knowledge Like to like to Paul. He's like he's been teaching this stuff to the church. We all know.
Speaker 2:You know, like he says later in the letter that's in First Corinthians, he's like all things are lawful, like you guys know this Right, but not all things are helpful.
Speaker 2:You haven't really learned the way that faith and love. You know, practically like what it looks like to live this thing out. You know, because they're still in. Despite having heard and knowing to some extent a lot of what Paul knows um, or at least the foundational stuff, they still have clearly not matured in it. You know, and that's like that's actually really humbling, you know and it's, but it's important that we're humbled by it so that, so that we can, like you said, begin learning the way. Understanding this is just the beginning and and, um, um, I guess just one thing I would add is just to say that, um, if I were to explain what, what my life has been like, and and maybe kind of speak for a bunch of individuals in my church who also have received the revelation, uh, around the same time or since then, it's not that like um, it's just perpetually peachy, you know, for like forever more Circumstantially, or even yeah.
Speaker 2:well, even how, yeah, whether feelings, circumstances, spiritual fruit, like it's not just, and I, and that's something that's hard to convey, even when you write a book, you know, like you want to, you want to hit on the stories of like, of where this has changed people. You want to hit on, like all you're sharing, all of those examples you know and like of where this has changed people. You want to hit on, like all you're sharing, all of those examples you know and like I don't want to write half of a book about how this hasn't worked yet and how this hasn't um, um and you know, focus on the truth as opposed to how we're struggling to believe the truth still, and that sort of thing, and yet, so, so. But I would say here that I think, like what has fundamentally changed since I learned of the finished work, or the gospel as we talk about it, is that my spiritual life actually has traction.
Speaker 2:Now the wheels are not just spinning, there's actual traction and I'm getting somewhere, whereas in the past it was like so many of my efforts felt like they were in vain, like they were fruitless, you know, and that was largely because, like you know, I'm sitting there praying that God would deliver me from something that he's actually already delivered me from.
Speaker 2:You know, I'm sitting there asking for things, searching, waiting for things that I actually already have, and I just need to learn to discover them, discover him inside of me.
Speaker 2:You know, these things are subtle, you know, but it's like I seek him in prayer and I feel close to him. So I think that's the reason I am close to him. But now, really, satan's just got me depending on my feelings and all he has to do is take the feeling away, and now I think I'm a part of it and it's like so the lie just immediately uproots the truth, and that was my spiritual life prior to having the foundation. You know, now it's like it's not like everything's better and I never sin anymore and whatever. It's more so like no, I actually just consistently growing and I know how to how to rightly handle the lies and rightly repent from sin, and in a way that's productive and not constantly undoing what God has done. That's what I would say is the biggest difference in all of this. So it's not that it's the whole building, but it's the foundation that you actually can start building on top of without the thing falling down.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, when you bring up 1 Corinthians and I think it's 8, if I'm not mistaken where Paul is talking about, well, he's just finished like three chapters of talking about sexual immorality and then he starts talking about food that has been offered to idols and he describes the immature and the mature believer right. And the immature believer is the one who just came out of paganism and is worried still that this meat that's been offered to idols is going to wreck him or her and like oh no, we can't be eating this meat. It's been offered to idols and Paul's like. You guys already know that that's not even a thing. Idols aren't a thing. Like God is only one God, and so you know. You know you can eat that meat he's like.
Speaker 1:But make no mistake, there are other people who just got this message, who don't have that level of maturity and how you are around them important. And so I think of early on 2019, 2020, for sure, 2019, where I was offensive to people who were kind of religious and thought the old way, and I don't know if I was trying to be, but I didn't have any chill, I just went for it.
Speaker 1:I was just sending it the whole way and Paul would be like Rich man, these guys aren't ready for that yet. Like they don't understand that and you don't have to be going so hard, Bring them along sweetly. They've been in their religious mindset for decades. You think that one conversation with you is going to change everything? Like be cool is probably what Paul would have said to me. And understanding, like maybe you have some maturity, but now it seems like you have some knowledge that's puffed you up a little bit. Gear down, big shifter. Like the whole point is so that people receive what you're saying and not that you just know something.
Speaker 2:Does that?
Speaker 1:make sense, yeah, 100%. One thing that, as you were talking about this, this idea of while we may still feel things and I want to throw this to you while we may still feel things, and I want to throw this to you I think you and I, I think one of the reasons why we're friends and yeah, we're friends because of the Holy spirit, the gospel and all that but also I think we share the same neuro divergence in some ways, and I don't know if yours manifests like this. I had rejection, sensitivity, dysphoria big time. So anytime I'm felt like like less than it would wreck me. And when I first got the gospel man, I was like, yeah, like nobody can tell me anything, like I'm, I've lost all my sensitivity buttons. I can't be moved anymore.
Speaker 1:And as the years have gone by, it seems like some of those buttons have come back and I'm able to be touched and I'm able to take offense. And, just like this morning, my wife said something to me that old Richard would really lose his mind over, and it still didn't feel good and I didn't say anything. I just let it go, because I think one of the big things for me is learning how to regulate all of these things, according to truth, where before it was such great news and yeah, yeah, yeah. And now it's a practice of changing my mind every single time something hits my body in a way that doesn't feel good. I'm changing my mind constantly and it has been practice. Talk to me, man, what have you had to practice or teach people in your church and like, this is how we practice this and that, as we're walking after what he's taught us after what he's taught us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, like um, so, kind of going back to what I had originally said about, depending on God, I think that's, um, one of the most important things that, uh, we're learning.
Speaker 2:Is that okay, um, when it comes to your feelings, right, I think, when you initially receive the finished work, you, you, for me, anyway uh, I was so inclined to disregard my feelings, because feelings aren't the truth, and that's, that's fine. And there's times where there's a grace to do that, right, but there's also times that that has led me to actually, uh, it's actually kept me from going to the Lord to work, like, work through my feelings and deal with them appropriately or accordingly, you know, and, um, so, in a way, because, because the finished work gives you a lot of this like assumption that, like, um, I have all things now I can just walk it out. But, in a weird way, you can almost try to start walking it out in your own strength you know what I mean? And and, in a weird way, you start operating off the knowledge that you have all things, as opposed to like really the experience of it and or like a deep revelation of it, and which we, which we really need God for, I think each and every day it, and which we, which we really need God for, I think each and every day. And so I think, when, when it comes to something like you know, this feeling hits us like rejection or offense or whatever. It's like you know, those of us who know the truth to a certain extent, we know the right answer is to put this off and to believe you know, x, y, z, fill in the blank, um, and I'm not supposed to be offended, or even like, in truth, in the spirit, I'm not offended, or you know, and it's like you're renewing your mind to that as a but in a weird way, sometimes you also kind of end up just talking to yourself Um, you, you know what I mean. The truth, like I wrote about in the first edition of no Longer I like there's is this temptation to fellowship with the like, just the truth, like just facts, as opposed to the capital T truth. The man named Jesus, you know, and, and what's he got to say about this? And I, and I think, like I actually find it, um, our weaknesses, you know, in this case, our feelings and whatnot, temptations, all of that, these are not a problem in the spiritual life. In fact, they're actually the context where we discover God's strength. And this is like.
Speaker 2:This is 2 Corinthians 13, you know, or 12, whichever chapter. It is near the end of that letter where Paul is like, pleading that the Lord would, you know, remove this thorn in his flesh. And and he says no, you know, um, my power is made perfect in weakness, not in spite of weakness, but in weakness, you know Um. And so Paul says therefore, I've, I've learned to be content with my sufferings. You know for, for when I am weak, then I am strong. Not then he is strong, then I am strong. You know, for when I am weak, then I am strong, not then he is strong, then I am strong. You know like, and so how's that even possible? When I'm weak, then I'm strong. Those two things are exact opposite. Well, he's saying when I'm weak in the flesh, right, he's saying, that is the very context where I actually remember and need to rely on the spirit, and there in him is where I find strength.
Speaker 2:You know, otherwise, it's very easy to think we're strong when we're feeling strong in the flesh. It's very easy to think we're mature, it's very easy to think we've got what we need and all of that, but it's like I just think, as christians, it's very, it's very important that we embrace um a life of of trial and suffering and weakness, like jesus himself was beset with weaknesses. That is not in any way shape or form to say that we, we believe the lie, that we're going to sin or that we have to. You know what I mean. Like that's not but, but a weakness is a need for God in each and every moment and the finished work, that we have him inside of us, that we have all things pertaining to life and godliness. If that ever, in a subtle way, which it can turns into, I don't really need God anymore, right, then we've we've just we've lost it. We've lost the whole point of that revelation. We have all things in him because he has all things and we're one with him, and so this is the you know. So, so you know, you start feeling a feeling and it's like a negative emotion.
Speaker 2:I'm actually learning to let that weakness um draw me to the Lord. Where God you like. You see how I'm feeling, like, instead of trying to look away from it and and look at God. It's like, how about with God? We look at it. You know what I mean. How about, together, let's process through this, like, allow yourself to feel it, not act on it, but like, you know what I mean, like God, I'm feeling this, you know, I'm feeling this. Let's say you know, and then like, through this, there's something to presenting that to the Lord, and I think a lot, of, a lot of Christians, especially ones who don't know the finished work they've, they've, they may know this, that like, yeah, we're supposed to be honest with God, you know, present our weaknesses to God, and so forth, but a lot of times, what they won't do then is allow God to speak back to them and then actually walk by faith, actually put on the truth afterwards, and that's where kind of they get lost.
Speaker 2:Like the goal isn't just to like express our weaknesses and stay there. That's where kind of they get lost. Like the goal isn't just to like express our weaknesses and stay there. You know, the goal is to to work through those and that he might actually clothe us in his strength, and that that requires like, ok, are you going to let God speak back to you now and are you going to actually start thinking like he does, you know, in which case you don't stay weak. You know you actually.
Speaker 2:You know when I'm weak then I'm strong. Weak, you know you actually. You know when I'm weak then I'm strong, and so, and then there's a whole nother kind of you know Christian mindset, a common error, I would say, that the finished work kind of lends itself to in our immaturity, and it's that, it's that our faith becomes void of honesty and sincerity. And just you know where, where again, where we just um sort of put on a face before God, um, deny our emotions and our feelings and the circumstance or whatever, and um, we never really learn how to acknowledge God.
Speaker 2:No, this really sucks and I'm really struggling with this and I really need your help. It's like for a little while there, I almost couldn't even say this and I really need your help. It's like for a little while there, I almost couldn't even say God. I really need your help because because of the knowledge that, yeah, because I have all things I have, you know what I mean and what I really need to do is just believe I have his help, you know. So again, I'm filling in the blank with the quote unquote right answer as opposed to going to the truth himself and saying God, I need your help.
Speaker 2:You know, and and like this is Hebrews like the whole point of the finished work is that in a time of need, we would draw near to the throne of great grace with confidence right to receive what we need. You know, that's like in a time of need, we draw near to him to get, and so the confidence piece of that is really important. The finished work is, again, really important and foundational, but it's just, but it's so that we can learn the way of being one with him and doing nothing apart from him. You know, and that's the piece that you know, it's just so important, you know you know, it's just so important, you know so.
Speaker 1:So I think, uh, when you, you did the whole jedi mind trick on me when I was at your house and you were like richard, in our weakness, who is strong, and uh, I'm sure you've done this to many people, and I was like, well, he is strong, he's like actually it says you are strong and that's funny, I don don't even remember that.
Speaker 1:But you've done that. I'm sure you have that. I've used it on people now too, where that verse where Paul's talking about getting the thorn out and God reveals that his grace is sufficient for all of that, and as I think about Paul in jail, where he's not anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication, I think about all that. This quote I read this last week made me think about it. This guy said everything will be okay when you are okay with everything. And I started thinking like and this book was about fighting your life and constantly in your mind trying to change things, and that your mind can't actually change your past and it can't change your future. But he says God has given us these beautiful minds and we've used them to destroy our lives by fighting our lives. And so there's this idea of radical acceptance on everything that has happened and radically accepting that you have no control over the future, but you can just rest and enjoy your life. And all these concepts came to me and I'm like, yeah, perhaps that's why Paul is in prison and he's you know, he's content, he can do all things through Christ, who strengthens him. Why? Because he has accepted his life. He's accepted what's going on. He's not finding out, like why am I in prison? And if I would have not preached at this place or in Ephesus and these people and then gotten whipped, maybe I wouldn't be in this predicament that I'm in. No, he's like this is where I am and God has me here and his grace is sufficient for me and I'm able to move.
Speaker 1:But I think before that he had to be okay with being in prison, and not that he's actually okay. But he's accepted it. And so much of our life is fighting our life. We're fighting the things that have happened in the past and fighting for like you're about to to publish, uh, the, the new version of no longer I. If you're sitting there fighting your life and being like it's got to look like this and it has to sell this many copies and I have to have like well then, that's going to be uncomfortable, right?
Speaker 2:totally yeah, and that's. There's a lot of really, um, good points there and I think, like, even as it pertains to our fleshy like feelings, our negative emotions and things like that, there's an element of like I think I'm going to speak for those of us who have learned the finished work and been trying to work it out. I think we can all probably relate to thinking that, like our feelings and emotions are a problem at times, like the goal is to like, get rid of those and replace those with the joy and the peace of the Holy Spirit and whatever, and like something about that. Like there is some truth to that in that, as we like, the goal is to bear fruit and the fruit of the spirit is joy and peace. That does replace the, you know like that is there is truth to that. But I think the trap is thinking that we're capable one of even bearing fruit in this moment by our own doing. Like we're just not. What we're capable of is abiding in him and however long it takes the fruit to come, that's up to him, you know, um, but I think I think the other, maybe more important, point is that our feelings and our emotions and the things that tempt us and test us and whatever are not a problem. We need to stop viewing those things as a problem. In fact, they're the very context of finding strength in him. This is why Paul says I'm content.
Speaker 2:I got pulled the verse up, 2 Corinthians 12, 10. He says for the sake of Christ, then I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions and calamities, for when I am weak, then I am strong. You know, and I so. I think, like I don't know, I, um, I'm just increasingly open all the time to like God. Um, the fact that you know someone still struggles with, fill in the blank, the fact that I haven't overcome, um, this temptation yet, the fact that I still feel this regularly, the fact that you know, whatever I've, I've come, I'm coming closer and closer to realizing like that's not actually a problem. In fact, it's the very thing that God is trying to use to teach me the thing I just have to learn, which is to find my strength in him and stop relying on my, stop waiting for those things to be gone for me to bear the fruit of God, for me to abide in him you know.
Speaker 1:Okay, we're going to take a really quick break right now. I want to read this thing. This blew my mind. This was so encouraging. I saw a kid on Facebook and he put this amazing statement out about how he used to live in fear and then he heard the gospel. So I was encouraging him, but he wrote me this thing he said watching you guys has been one of the things that fuels me to share the gospel, especially here in the Philippines. He lives in the Philippines.
Speaker 1:Rejection and criticism are often the first responses, to the point where even relationships get affected. Sometimes it feels lonely because the church here isn't quite ready to talk about the good, good gospel. But thanks to Love Reality and Internet Church, even just as spectators, we've been comforted and strengthened by God through your messages. It keeps us going. Man praise the Lord that, through this ministry, people all over the world are getting comforted and strengthened, while it seems like they're getting ostracized for believing what the Bible says about them. And so I'm saying this because we want to keep doing this. This is so encouraging, but we need your help. We do not do this without you and you guys.
Speaker 1:Donating is what keeps this thing going. So please, wwwloverealityorg slash give, partner with us so that we can keep on producing the podcast, that we can keep on doing Internet Church and blessing people around the world. It is the privilege of our lifetime. We would be doing it, but we can't do it without you. So, loverealityorg slash give, let's get back into the episode man.
Speaker 1:So talk to me about why the new edition of the book and as you were adding to the book. Um, because I think early on you loved the book and but and you were also like man, I would like to add that, is it right after you sent it to the publisher, like right after you press enter, you're like oh, man, I would like to have added this like talk to me about this journey with with the book and and what we have to look forward to in the new edition so what's funny is that when I finished that book and I was, I was really like pretty much done writing it in August of 2020, you know, and um, and I got hit with this revelation in January of 2020.
Speaker 2:So it was like I was writing the book as I was learning all of these things, um, and it was during COVID and I had just left the church and job for anyone who doesn't know that story but I had a lot of time, so I was just writing and learning, and writing and learning. And when I finished it in August, like it was literally everything I knew, like I remember thinking to myself like this is everything that I could possibly say, like I do not have a single other ounce of knowledge to add to this conversation, and um, and that's how it felt, you know, and that um at that season. And then you know it's been, however long, for over four years now since then, and you learn a lot and you learn and you know in your own life and with others. You're just walking through all of this like um, and you just really you, you learn what has been helpful, um, and you learn what was not helpful. You learn the traps that people fall into. You learn where you were unclear, you learn where maybe you were actually inaccurate or you, you know, you you left out some nuance that's actually really needed. Um, and so all of those, all of those things, um, that at this point feel it feels kind of countless to me, like, like the number of little things that we've learned that just make it a more well-rounded, you know, message. Um, I just had this feeling of I've got to, um, you know, when, given the opportunity by God, I want to revise that and add this stuff. You know, and it'd be great.
Speaker 2:It's funny because, literally this morning yeah, it was this morning I was talking with a brother who was over at my house and, as we're sharing, like what the Lord is teaching us right now, I'm literally thinking to myself because I'm in the editing process for the second book, you know, and really very well done, that's going to be coming out soon, but it's done. I'm not adding anything to it. And I have the thought this morning, the first time, I'm like crap, I wish I could add this stuff that I'm learning right now and I think at some point, you know, I just it's never going to be perfect. I'm kind of a perfectionist, just get it out, and if I have to write a third edition years down the road, then I can, you know, and not to mention, it's just like my book isn't the Bible. It doesn't have to be.
Speaker 2:There's going to be other opportunities to speak and write and discipleship is a, you know, an ongoing thing. So I just all that's all stuff I kind of just have to accept. But a lot of what, um, what I wanted to add, or at least some of what I wanted to add, is stuff we've talked about even here today. It's just further clarification to give a more rich understanding of what, the what it looks like to walk this out, and that's um. I also, you know, had a lot of um, negative feedback from the book. I mean, as you guys well know, this, the message is not always received.
Speaker 1:um, not like negative from people who are actually down, but like negative people who aren't down from the beginning, like yeah, exactly Like they just read it and they're just totally opposed to what I think of as the gospel.
Speaker 2:You know, um, and for a variety of reasons, and sometimes for unknown reasons, like, I'm just sometimes kind of shocked as to why you're not even open to what I'm saying, you know, and um, given like, just how deeply, like biblical it appears to be. You know, um, I'm not, I'm not spinning any scriptures, I'm not, you know, using them licentiously or whatever. It's just like this is what it looks to say, and so, but, but with some of that pushback, and then a lot of it is just honest answers, like people just genuinely wondering how do I deal with First John one, you know, nine or eleven or whatever, yeah, others wondering how do I deal with James? Wondering how do I deal with james four? Uh, how do I deal with, um, james one, you know, like, there's all of these questions what about this, what about? And? And so I wanted as much as possible, to deal with some of those big ones that um kept coming up, and so, um, anyway, I mean, so the second book is like twice, almost twice as long, um, and it just adds quite a bit and it keeps it still keeps the main substance of it before.
Speaker 2:Just maybe an emphasis is a little different over here and more clarification over here, but it's been a really cool project and I just feel equipped to do it. You know, and I'm sure in four or five years from now I'll probably feel like man, I want to change it again. I don't know if I will, but yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I have three go-to books on the Finnish work that I recommend to people, and I think they're on our More Good Gospel website. One is Jonathan's book Free From Sin. The other is this book called Awake to Righteousness by this pastor in Australia, and then it's no Longer I and I think those books have been in circulation, obviously for the Love Reality community.
Speaker 1:A lot of people have read Jonathan's book, but yours is probably the second most popular. It might be the first most popular. Tell me some of the things that have blown you away from people reading it, like comments or stories of things that like what have you heard in the last four years of man? I came across your book and this is what happened.
Speaker 2:You know I can't. I mean this is going to sound really like like a boring answer, but I can't really recall any like I don't hear from, because it's all word of mouth and I don't really have like like a boring answer, but I can't really recall any like I don't hear from, because it's all word of mouth and I don't really have like a have not had a website and have not. It's just very like a lot of this stuff happens and I don't hear about it.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, and like someone was talking about it yesterday, like on a video I was on, I was they're like, yeah, we're reading, no longer I in our group church or in our home church and and I'm like, listen to this. And I'm like, man, let's go. So, yeah, no, that's awesome. I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 2:And I, you know, I it's like kind of here and there I'll come across people who, whether they reach out, or a friend of a friend, or whatever, and they'll say, man, this book really impacted my life, you know. But it's not like I don't get the nitty gritty, I don't know all the ins and outs of how, um, I just, I don't know, Maybe I, maybe I'm doing something wrong to not know that, but I will say, um, I made some really cool connections, um, out in Colorado with, like folks connected to you all and uh, uh and anyway, there's, there's actually a um, there's actually someone who's been gracious to support me as a writer. Um, that was a connect. He, he had read my book last year, um, and it really impacted him and his wife and family and, um, so we've got to know each other.
Speaker 2:Great dude, I want to keep it. Uh, him anonymous, Um, but, uh, but the Lord has used him. He just said Jake, you want to keep writing? I want to, I want to help you do that. Um, I believe in your message, you want to get the message out there, you know, and it's like so, it's, it's really kind of cool. So I've had a career shift, as well as of lately. Just um, I'm not. I'm going to work on another book here once this is complete and for the next 12 months I'm kind of on this assignment or project, so to speak, and don't have to give us any hints or any, any like what the premise of the book is, or anything like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, so well, let me first say this I and this is is just an encouragement to anybody Like um, I, about three years ago, I remember, uh, sitting in my living room one morning, just praying and just expressing this really deep desire to write. Just God, you know, I've got, I've had these two books no longer I was one of them the revision to it and then this other one I'll tell you about in a second. Um, just know, like, before I die, I've got to write these. I just like I, it's like this deep sense of calling like I to the point where I'm like I literally don't know if it's possible for me to die until I write them. That's how, like, I'm, just like I have to do it, you know, and I know God has called me to, and but also seeing, like you know, I had a full-time job and a church here to take care of and I've tried the whole writing in the evenings, when I get home, type of thing, just I'm just, I just can't get myself to do it for a wide variety of reasons. And, um, so, god, I just pray that you make a way for me to be a writer, or at least you know for a while to do that, and um, that's three years ago. And then I mean, how many people can say that out of the blue comes a donor who's? I mean I'm not soliciting donations, you know what I mean. Just out of nowhere, this guy's like hey, if you ever wanted to write more, I'd be willing to support you in doing that, and so, and I never thought that'd be how God did it. You know, I'm not. It's not like I'm a famous author by any means, like, just by any means, like I've maybe sold a few thousand copies of of that book, tops a couple thousand, so, um, so that's a really, really cool answered prayer as of late that I just want to. You know it's a testament, you know, god's faithful man, um and uh. So anyway, this, this new book, is, if you know the term I know you do but for others, ecclesiology, it's study of the church, basically, and that sounds it's not going to be a, you know, scholarly, only, you know, elite Christians can kind of read it type of thing. It'll have very much the same tone and flavor of no Longer.
Speaker 2:I I believe there are some just totally fundamental kind of paradigm shifts that need to happen in the church with the way we think about how we function as the body of Christ, and I intend to kind of take those head on and cast a vision for how individual Christians can begin to start, you know, start with just renewing their minds, like just come into agreement with what the Word of God says about how he builds his church and how we relate to one another, and then from there, you know, maybe offer some suggestions about practically what that could look like in terms of, like, well, now, what do we do? You know? Because I mean, for anyone who doesn't know, I have a home church and a home church, uh, and part of a network of a few others, um, and, and in that there's just some. Really, I don't believe house church is the silver bullet.
Speaker 2:It's not even going to be a book about house church, um, but it's. But I'm not going to be shy about saying, hey, if you, if you do actually come to see these things like I do, I think you'll slowly start to realize why house church is actually much more practical, um, in achieving that end. Um, again, not silver bullet, not saying it's the answer, but it's like there are reasons why I've chosen to kind of lead this way, um, and they're really important, um reasons you know, and so, anyway, I, uh, I'm really excited, man, and it's not totally fleshed out yet. You know, I haven't even started it yet, but it's like that's, that's what's brewing in me, so man, you.
Speaker 1:God has given you questions that I had never thought about, never think about, and I remember we were talking about this the other day when I was at your house. You asked me a question about why I practice something that I practice, and I was like I don't have a good answer, and I think that God has just given you these questions, like as you're studying scriptures and you're seeing how the church operate, like where do you get your baseline for this is what's most helpful, for how the body of Christ should be moving?
Speaker 2:That's a good question, man. I think like a lot of it comes from a like, deeply felt like resistance in me to conjuring up um ministry in my own strength, like there's something deeply uh, like, uh feels really off to me about how the the modern uh church kind of structure system, the way we do things, puts, uh puts leaders, beginning with the leaders, in a position of of relying on, on the flesh and and that you know how we, let me say the biblical foundation is reliance on the Holy Spirit. God will build his church. We cannot do it apart from him. Unless the Lord builds the house, the one who builds it labors in vain. So, yes, we're supposed to build, but also let's not fool ourselves into thinking all our building is with God. You know, and just like I think I mentioned this the last time we talked, the last podcast episode we did is like the whole Ishmael and Isaac thing, you know, and just like I think I mentioned this the last time we talked, actually the last you know podcast episode we did is like the whole Ishmael and Isaac thing, you know, and like it'd be very easy for Abraham after Ishmael to say, look, god promised me a son, here he is. I did it. Nope, sorry, bro, that wasn't the son that God gave you.
Speaker 2:No, now, isaac was also born of the flesh, in the flesh. He was still a human being, a flesh human being, right. But he was born according to right, with Paul's words, according to the Spirit. That means by God's doing. There's nothing Abraham could do except wait on God, continue being intimate with his wife hint hint, church, and Jesus bride and groom, whatever. And it's like then, just like wait for it to happen. Trust me, you know, and and so, um, but anyway, through and through in scripture, I just see um as well as I, there's just this, uh, I call it like an intuition or a discernment that I, I just think that I have spiritually. Um, I don't mean that in any boastful way, but like that that I just I re, I really um, just kind of know we have to learn how to rely on the Holy Spirit, like that's the only way.
Speaker 2:And I've felt that for a very long time and that's the one thing that caused the most tension and frustration in my life of ministry. You know, prior to stepping away from the corporate church structure that I was a part of, stepping away from the corporate church structure that I was a part of and it's the thing that compelled me to operate differently and sort of put myself in a setting where, you know, like with the house church man, if we've got it's just starting with the idea that if there's two or three people meeting in the living room, jesus says there, I am, like that's a gathering of the saints, that is in every way, shape or form, a legitimate church, and what that does is it relieves the pressure from me as a leader, let's say, or a pastor, shepherd, whatever, from having to go get more people, because we're not a healthy church if we don't have more people. It relieves the pressure for me. I actually get to say God, what are you empowering me to do right now, in your grace, you know? And if I don't have a sermon to preach, you know this Sunday, like that's fine, like we actually, what if God actually didn't give me one? You know, I'd far rather not have one than to have to give one that he didn't give to me. To give one that he didn't give to me, um, and this stuff really matters because it is the difference between ending up with a result that we can look back and say God did this confidently, you know, versus a result where we were kind of like, well, I mean, we do have a church just like Abraham's, like, well, we do have a son and God did promise to do that. Um, that's what I don't want, you know. So, so I don't know.
Speaker 2:You know, there's what I think one of the foundational scriptures with it in terms of like what we do when we gather. You know, this is just a small piece of it, but would be like First Corinthians 14. It's very clear in these early church gatherings, you know, that he says when you come together, each one has something hymn, a lesson, a psalm, a tongue, revelation, interpretation, whatever. Let all things be done for building up. And you know. And he says when one prophet speaks, let the other prophets weigh what is said, you know, and all can prophesy one by one.
Speaker 2:And there's this like, there's this very obvious fact that they functioned differently to where anybody was free to speak in the gathering, being faithful with how the Holy Spirit was wanting to speak through them. And that doesn't mean we just take what they say, hook, line and sinker. That means the rest of the body collectively weighs what is said to discern whether or not it was actually the Holy Spirit, discern whether or not it was actually the Holy Spirit. And this is a really, really important aspect of functioning and gathering in a way, so as for all of the gifts to be made manifest. And it's very different than like, well, you get to be a door greeter, you get to be, you know your gift is like serving in a hospitality team or on the music team or whatever it's like. We don't just no, it's like it's. We're actually learning to discern what God has empowering me to do today. And even if I don't have any musical talent, what if I actually find that he's stirring within me amazing grace? I just want to start singing it and then everyone else can start singing along. We don't need you to have a beautiful voice, we need you know, like there's. And then all of a sudden, everyone's like in agreement, like God just did that. It wasn't the worship leader who planned it, because he's getting paid to do it. God did it, you know. And so I could go on and on and again.
Speaker 2:My book is going to be an attempt to best explain these things and demonstrate how, um, why I think it's so important. But that's one thing, um, and then the last thing I'll say is things like um, things like church discipline um would probably be like that's one of the most practical um and important aspects of how the church, I think is not functioning, that it needs to function and, just truthfully speaking, I'm not saying that they're not out there, but I personally have never seen outside of our three house churches, I have literally never seen church discipline happen like we practice it and like I think the Bible tells us to. Never once seen it, and to the point where someone is actually can actually be de-fellowshipped and in a way that is All giving people over to Satan in your house churches.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, I mean we're instructed to under the right circumstances, but it's not just about and I will say, people do get you know, excommunicated, de-fellowshipped, whatever from churches, but I do not believe the due process is followed. I don't see the biblical mandate of how that's supposed to work out happening, and then most churches just don't do it, period. So those types of things submitting to one another, what does it look like to actually submit to one another in a way again, that's not cultish, but actually biblical and healthy and to everyone's benefit, and so these are the types of things it's just kind of. My biblical foundation is just all of that and more.
Speaker 1:Man, I'm excited. When can we expect that bad boy to be coming across our Kindles or our hard copy?
Speaker 2:Well, I've got you know at this point, 11-ish months to write it no-transcript, but in some ways it has become like a gathering of believers.
Speaker 1:We gather every single week on here. I know in person is where it's at, but some people can't do that, they can't meet in person or where, and so the discipline stuff that has definitely come up, um, and we've tried to handle it the best way we can, trying to use scripture, and so I'm really pumped up to to read your book. All right, let me um, as we come up towards the end here, I want to ask you this, and this is kind of what you and I were talking about the other day, and I don't want you to give the whole game away, but I would like some insight into this. Johnny Valit, which is a buddy of mine, and Tyler Morrison and I were talking about this thing, about the flesh, like what is the flesh? And just yesterday someone was asking me what is the flesh? And so I said well, you know, in the Greek Sarks means um, the old, unregenerated man, or the fallen man, or the old man, um, and it can also be our body.
Speaker 2:When someone says to you, jake, what is the flesh? How do you define it to them so that they can really get a grasp of what the flesh actually is? So I will preface this by saying the second edition of no Longer I, I think, provides significantly more clarity around this, and because of this question I just felt I felt like I thought my first book did a good job at it, but then it not a good enough job. There were still too many questions, like you know, and and so I I really go out of my way to try to make a biblical case for what I'm saying there and so encourage anyone to look at that. But I always start with.
Speaker 2:The most basic and rudimentary meaning of flesh is what we all know. It means you peel flesh away from bones, like it's the literal soft tissue of your body, that's. I'm not saying that's the whole meaning, I'm saying that's the most basic and rudimentary meaning of that term and that's important because then, like as words, as we all know, can take a life of their own and they form into, they become more nuanced and take on more right. But it's like but if you start there, remember that's where the word started. Okay, now what does that imply? What does that come with? What does that right? And what it implies is what else is made of flesh besides humans? Well, all animals. Right, in the bible, like it actually speaks of all flesh and we share flesh with animals. Right, this is our, this is our um, our earthly, like adam was made from the dust, like the dust of the earth. Right, this is our earthly bodily nature, and like animals, which are also flesh, flesh Like. If we're dead inside, right, then we are, by definition, actually just flesh creatures. Where we're, like Peter and Jude say, irrational animals, creatures of instinct, that's what we are. If all we are is this like kind of meat vessel that animals are, okay, which is why the flesh, by the way, is both the body and the old man, because when we were dead inside, that's all we were was a meat vessel being being driven by the impulses of the brain.
Speaker 2:Let's call it, you know, with the modern science that we have and um, and the flesh, in that way, has a mind of its own right, like it actually there has. There is an immaterial component to the flesh that we know. Right, animals still have brains, they still have thoughts and feelings and so forth. Ours is more complex, but it's like, even if we're dead inside, that we still have on this exterior shell. There's still thoughts and feelings and all sorts of things we experience in sort of an immaterial fashion, passions and desires that drive us to do things right.
Speaker 2:And so that's where I think sometimes people get lost when I start calling the flesh the body, because you're like well, but it seems like they're thinking of flesh more so in terms of like the passions and the desires that are immaterial. Right, well, it's like, but if you listen to what I just said, that starts to make more sense. Right, because you start with the fact that it's a body. What now comes with that? Right Now you expand even beyond that and you realize, oh, flesh also has to do with just, really, it's a whole realm.
Speaker 2:Right, when we talk about flesh and spirit, that's not always like my body of flesh and my spirit inside me. It's actually the flesh realm, the earth realm, compared to the spirit realm or the heaven realm. These are and for Paul, this sort of dualism, flesh and spirit, earth and heaven. It pervades literally everything he's teaching, because it's like in Romans 12, 2, the verse we know so well, you know, don't be conformed to the world. Right, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind. Right and meaning, like the way we think, the template that we use. What's the? Which reality trumps? Which right? The spirit or it's that? They're both real, they're both happening. But Jesus came in order to reveal to us the truth that we can't see the spiritual reality. We need to learn to think according to that reality in order for the heaven to be manifest on earth through us. And so, like Colossians 3, you know this is well, let's say Colossians 2, even back up.
Speaker 2:This is where he says why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to these regulations? Do not handle, do not taste, do not not touch. You know everybody assisting on on asceticism and and uh, he's like as if these things have any value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh. This is all like right. He says no, but since you have been raised right, set your minds on things above, set your hearts on things above, like this is the true realities. You're not even, even though you're still in this flesh, in this body of flesh, in this meat vessel here on earth, you actually also are seated with him in heaven. These, and that's the unseen, and it's only by thinking according to that reality, first, right that, that we're transformed, and that's where you know the power to overcome actually comes from.
Speaker 2:So, anyway, so, things like anything pertaining to this earth is related to flesh. So, like your family, right, by definition, you were born of the flesh, from your flesh family, right? Your parents are your flesh parents, your siblings are your flesh siblings, and so forth. According to the flesh, in the spirit, right, god is our father. This is why jesus, when his family comes to knocking on the door when he's preaching and they want to talk to him, he says who is my mother, my brother, my sister? According to the flesh, they are right, but he's saying, according to the spirit, no, who is my mother, my brother, my sister? But those who obey the will of my father in heaven. But we are brothers because we share the same father. Not according to the flesh, according to the spirit. So right, there you have one example of what is according to the flesh mean, right, it applies to country. According to the flesh, right, we are American. Right. According to the spirit, we are what would you call it.
Speaker 2:Well, there's, it's all exactly I was going to say we're jewish, but that's misleading, because you know what I mean. We're the true jews that paul says. We're the? Um, what does he say? The new israel? Um, I think it's what he says, or the true israel, or the, whatever it is, but it's like um, the heavenly jerusalem, like there's actually in this.
Speaker 1:You know our god's country. God, that know God's country, God's country.
Speaker 2:Exactly the nation of Israel. That was once a thing of the earth and the flesh is now, is now. It was meant to convey and communicate what the real thing that we now have in spirit. That's true of the temple. Right Old covenant that, like, the temple was a thing of the flesh. Now, what's the temple in the spirit we are? We are the temple of God, hence why we have no need for buildings. By the way, sacrifice was once a thing of the flesh that we did. Now it's of the spirit. Jesus is a sacrifice. Priests were once these things like on earth, designated like that. Well, we are now the priesthood of all believers.
Speaker 2:Here's a really interesting one. I, I, I talk about this one in my book. Um is introversion and extroversion. Um, just for example, like and like I used to be really into personality tests and now I just like, kind of, I kind of despise them. I mean, I'm like, don't want to come super hard against them because they're interesting and they're fun and and whatever, but all they help you do is know yourself in the flesh better, like that's it they. You actually just learn who you, who you were, according to the flesh. You learn what your natural inclinations are. But those aren't your inclinations in the spirit, those are inclinations in the flesh. So tell me, how does that help? You? Just put on Christ and you'll be who you need to be, you know, and so, like a lot of people think that, well, god made me an introvert, god made me an extrovert, and it's like well, you were born in that way, according to the flesh, but would you look at in terms of our identity in Christ? Let's look at how this actually steals something from you. Right?
Speaker 2:Can you say that Christ is an introvert or an extrovert? The answer to that ought to be no, right? It's very foolish to think of Christ and or God as an introvert or an extrovert. What is he? What is God? He's love. Right, and love can lead someone to perform an action that may look like introversion. Maybe it's silence and slow to speak. Maybe it's getting away early in the morning to go spend time with God. Maybe it's not, you know, always calling someone up in the evening to see if they want to hang out. Maybe it's you know what I mean. But it's not introversion that would drive Jesus to do that, even when he was in the flesh on earth. It's love, love for the Father, you know. And same with extroversion man. He was going to parties. He was always out talking to people, he was preaching in open air, yeah, and it's like you know, you could look at Jesus and say, well, he was an extrovert. No, he wasn't, he was love, right.
Speaker 2:So tell me why introversion or extroversion has any relevance at all. Become love and you'll find that your natural inclination just doesn't matter. That's a thing of the flesh, right, and it's not to say that intro like and this is where it's helpful to understand for, um, that biblically speaking, flesh is not always bad, it's actually it's just, uh, there are bad things that come with it because it pertains to a limited, temporal, earthly realm that is passing away, will be burned up in the fire. It's not eternal, right. And so pursuing those things, identifying with those things, being stuck there, that actually does lead to death and destruction. That's why it's bad. But the flesh in and of itself isn't bad, it's just not. You know what I mean. And so introversion and extroversion, it's like recognize, I'm not saying those things are sinful, I'm saying they're just of the flesh realm and they actually are contrary, like to think of yourself, sort of inwardly I am an introvert. You cannot say that while believing it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me. You cannot say that while believing it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me. You can't, because Christ is not an introvert, so already it's like no, what you can say is in the flesh I'm inclined towards introversion, like, sure, recognize, but then who cares? Because we no longer regard one another according to the flesh. Put on Christ, your new creation. You are love and look.
Speaker 2:This is one of my favorite stories to tell about. This is my own wife, kayla, who in the flesh was a, like huge introvert. You know, and it's really crazy, if you meet Kayla today and anyone in our church can testify to this a lot of them have only met her past. You know two, three years, and anyone in our church can testify to this, a lot of them have only met her past. You know, two, three years. She's like the most extroverted girl in our three churches, or one of them anyway. You know.
Speaker 2:I say extroverted like people would think of her as, oh, she's extroverted, right? No, and that's a mistake as well. And she hasn't changed. It's not that she's become an extrovert from being an introvert. No, she's matured and she's become love and she still has the same inclinations and drives in the flesh to some extent. But love actually actually has opened her up to like pursuing people and being the one to ask questions and learn about, and and to not be afraid of, you know, giving up a night alone to invite people in. And you know it's like, and she's not resisting that anymore, to actually become natural, you know, and um, at least to some extent, so much so that I don't think you would know how much of an introvert she really is. Um, because why? Because in christ she's actually not um. And so the same could be said of extroversion, you know, and I I don't a lot of people.
Speaker 2:They just get really weird when you start talking about this stuff because they identify so strongly to like this is who I am, god, maybe this I'm unique, and it sort of justifies their inclinations. It's like look, I just become love and that's settled, you know. So there's like. There's example after example. You know rich and poor, that's another example of flesh that's just like it's all in the earthly realm Like. And poor, that's another example of flesh that's just like it's all in the earthly realm Like. We have all things. All things are ours in Christ. We're all rich in the Spirit. You know Just and then.
Speaker 1:Beyond that, the last definition that the flesh means is like Paul says what is it in Philippians 3?, like I, put no confidence in the flesh right. What he's talking about was to have confidence in the flesh. It's him, because he's and what is it?
Speaker 2:it's a hebrew of hebrews. Right there you have, like, I'm of the right flesh, descent, right. And then he says, like a pharisee of pharisees, right, like, which is what? The all that he's studied and all that he's done, the sect that he's apart, all of it pertains, blameless, exactly all of it pertains to his life here on earth and the things that he did. His education, by the way, that's another thing of the flesh, like how you know, and this is, this is one of the things I'm going to come hard at, sort of uh, with the book I'm going to write with the church is just how the church, having not understood this distinction between flesh and spirit, they've pursued, pursued things of the spirit, but by means of the flesh. And so this is why we put our trust in the fact that a pastor went to seminary and that means he's qualified.
Speaker 2:You know, it's just like, no, that's sorry, that's not the way. You know, like that degree isn't what qualifies you. The spirit qualifies you, and that can only be discerned by the body of the people that are around you to say, yes, he has authority. I've seen his life, I've heard him speak. He meets the qualifications. The spirit testifies to this. You know, like, like, this stuff matters, but instead we've built systems and external earthly things, like even the churches themselves. You know, with the denominations and whatever Will we have denominations that carry into eternity? No, we wouldn't.
Speaker 1:You're going to have your section and I'm going to have my section and we can visit on.
Speaker 2:Absolutely not. And so, like you know, I mean I didn't even intend to go here, but, like one of the conversations you and I had, you know, about denominations, just like I cannot identify, as I used to be a Methodist, you know, but I cannot identify as a Methodist and put on Christ at the same time, is Jesus Christ a Methodist? No, he's not. He is not, you know. And so it's like, oh, I'm a Methodist, oh, and it's no longer I who live with Christ.
Speaker 1:It's kind of. Jesus is the end of all of that, because it is him.
Speaker 2:He is. And so hence why the gospel as we talk about it, and why this like not regarding one another according to the flesh. Hence why it is literally the key to unity. I mean it is the foundation of of actually, you know, on the other end of all of this, it will lead to unity of actually, you know, on the other end of all of this, it will lead to unity. I mean, I'm not saying that will be without trial and without submission and lots of humility and lots of effort, but this is the foundation of it is that, I mean, this is why Paul says there's no Greek, no Jew, no circumcised, uncircumcised, barbarian, skideon, slave or free, but what Christ is all and in all, he says in Galatians, there's no male or female. Why? Because that's a denomination of the flesh. Literally, that's like your body of flesh is what makes you male or female. And he said right, but we are one in Christ.
Speaker 2:And so now again, people get all weird about the implications of this. And what are you really saying? Or whatever? I'm not, don't hear what I'm not saying, right, I'm just defining what flesh is and how we are called to see ourselves, all of us, as one with Christ. Put him on, recognize what's the flesh and stop identifying with it. And then, in turn, as we put on this identity, we still exist in these bodies of flesh.
Speaker 2:And you know, I'm still a male, born in America, in this particular city, I have this level of education in the family, like these things are still real and not but only by putting on Christ, do I see how Christ is going to love in these unique contexts that I've been put in. You know, but I can't really do that. If I'm bound, you know, sort of in my identity, to these things, I can't have a right relationship with my country if I think that I, you know, at the deepest level, really am an American, because then what about when my faith requires me to, you know, not carry that identity? What if my country's against my faith? What is my? You get what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:These are same with family, same with whatever. It's like, um, this stuff really matters. So the law, striving, all of that pertains to the flesh as well, my works and etc. But but that's kind of it. So the flesh is a very like big word, you know, but it's all it all starts with. This body is what tethers me to this earth and in all that comes with it, then is those things pertaining to the flesh and the spirit is all stuff that I can't see. The flesh you can see, the spirit you cannot, you know.
Speaker 1:So, man, that all being said, now I'm just. I want to run through a brick wall. When can I read the new edition, bro? When is it going to? When am I going to be seeing it? Give me a date. When can I buy it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it will come out on Amazon on April 28th, which is let me check, actually make sure that's that's right. Yeah, it's Monday, april 28th is when the release date is, and prior to then, I do want to let you and anybody know. So the way I'm going to set this up, moving forward since I'm going to keep writing and stuff is I'm going to use Substack. Do you know what that is? Yeah, so if you go to Substack and you look up my name, jacob Hotchkiss, you'll find I've got a newsletter Right now. It's called Edify. I just gave it a name, but if you click that, which is right under my name, you'll actually you'll see that I'm.
Speaker 2:I've made the book available on the website for free, and I'm going to keep it that way. So my book will always be for like free in print, right, or, or I guess, online anyway, and sort of like a blog. Each, each chapter will be like its own blog, and I'll be right there in the same space though, so anyone can read it, share it, for free. I'll also have the audio book there for free. Um, and then, if you are so inclined to buy a copy on Amazon, then please do.
Speaker 2:And um, the other thing I want to say is that that'll be up when this podcast releases. All of that will be up. If anyone wants to do me a solid, do the gospel a solid, you can review that early, start reading it and then, when it's released, I'd love to get as many reviews as possible on Amazon, because I'm going to make more of an effort this time to just really do my due diligence to get the message out there, like, just really do my due diligence to get the message out there, and that you know to people that it's not just word of mouth per se, but actually like the algorithm and the SEO to make sure when someone's looking for another book, it shows up, say, you might like this, you know, and the more reviews that I can get from people are just like yeah, I've read this. This is great or not great.
Speaker 1:You know, it's just very helpful. So anybody who's willing to do that, I appreciate it. Um, but yeah, let's go. Last thing If you heard your first episode back in the day and you read no longer, I and you've been walking along and there's been some valleys and some discouragement what is your encouragement to somebody who's walking along this path, who believes in the finished work and is going after it? How would you encourage that person? Right?
Speaker 2:now Like someone who's like kind of in the midst of valleys, after having believed in it.
Speaker 1:Sure, why not?
Speaker 2:Man. It's a deep question. Come to Jesus and know him like eternal life is to know him and I just go back to the finished work is is the the way that we can actually know him? I mean, this is the whole point of having been cleansed from our sins and mating right, being made righteous as he, being one with him, whatever is, so that we can actually right now, like, no matter what you're whole point of having been cleansed from our sins and being made righteous as he, being one with Him, whatever is, so that we can actually right now, like, no matter what you're doing, no matter what you've been thinking, no matter what is you can turn from sin and you can know Him and get what you need from Him. And just don't deny yourself that right and that opportunity, as a child of God, to go and get what you need from him. You know with confidence, with no shame. You know today and every day.
Speaker 1:So yeah, Thanks so much, my man. When the new new book comes out, we'll have to do this all over again and I'm sure I'll have some more questions. But, man, you're a blessing to us, you're a blessing to our community, and so thank you for being a city on a hill, we see your good works and we're glorifying our father in heaven.
Speaker 2:Thank you, man, love it, love you, and God bless you as well. Love you, dog Peace. See you, man.