Death to Life podcast
A podcast that tells the stories of people that used to be one way, and now are completely different, and the thing that happened in between was Jesus.
Death to Life podcast
#217 Jonathan Phillips: Redemption in the Prison Yard
Jonathan Phillips shares his remarkable journey from a legalistic religious upbringing to finding freedom through the true gospel, including the pivotal moment when he had to defend himself with deadly force and how God ultimately redeemed his darkest days.
• Raised in conservative Seventh-day Adventism where God was presented as judgmental and angry
• Attended strict religious academies that reinforced his growing discomfort with organized religion
• Left faith behind as a young adult after feeling condemned for being unable to keep religious rules
• Worked as a corrections officer for 13 years while battling personal struggles with alcohol
• Experienced a life-changing trauma when forced to use deadly force in self-defense in April 2013
• Struggled with grief, shame and alcohol addiction in the aftermath of the traumatic event
• Found true freedom when his father helped him understand God's unconditional love in 2024
• Discovered the transformative power of belief and how it changes one's entire experience
• Now lives in a running conversation with God rather than under religious obligation
• Celebrates April as a time of redemption rather than trauma, testifying to God's healing power
If you've been hurt by religion or believe God is angry and judgmental, Jonathan's story shows that God is so much better than many of us have been taught. There is no shame or condemnation in Christ—only love.
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The world doesn't think that the gospel can change your life, but we know that it can and that's why we want you to hear these stories, stories of transformation, stories of freedom, people getting free from sin and healed from sin because of Jesus. This is Death to Life.
Speaker 2:So, you know, they realized something happened when the police cars went flying by. They didn't see me get taken to the police station. All they saw was a body coming out on a gurney out of my house and they're like oh so they, you know, they collected up my dog and took her and they were just hoping. They were just hoping they didn't know. And so, yeah, when they saw police cruiser drop me back off, I was very alone. I had my friends, but I still lived alone and suicidal thoughts started to come in, Just laying there in bed thinking about putting a pistol in my head.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the Death to Life podcast. Today's episode is with my friend, jonathan Phillips, and this story is definitely one of a kind. We have never had this kind of a story on the podcast and it is super beautiful. I love to see Jonathan's heart. I love it because I love his dad, floyd, and you know, after recording with Floyd and then having his son, jonathan on, I think it's just super special to see, um, what the gospel is doing, how it's bringing people from death to life and showing how we've always been loved. And so this, uh, this story is not for the faint of heart, it's not for children.
Speaker 1:So buckle up, strap in, love y'all, love y'all, appreciate y'all. This is jonathan. Uh, hear ye him. Okay. Yeah, so we've had uh relatives on the death to life podcast. We've had brothers and sisters and we've even had fathers and sons, but we've never had the father have their episode first. It's usually goes the other way around. So this is kind of cool. Yeah, and if you guys don't know, this is Jonathan Phillips, who I've never actually had a full length conversation with. But I'm excited to, man, tell me where. Where are we going? Before you, before you answer that I did record a podcast with your pop. It did go eight hours. We then recorded another one that was like an hour and 45 minutes, but I so I know a lot and Floyd's a great friend of mine. But, man, I'm so excited to hear where your story starts in all of this.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, could we could start that? Uh, 12 hours I spent in a police station planning my life in prison, but what? No, we should probably start at the beginning. We should probably start start in prison.
Speaker 1:I do want to hear that part of the story, but uh, yeah, man, yeah, where are you from?
Speaker 2:uh, well I'm.
Speaker 1:I was born in texas but raised in michigan, bering springs, so I would say at least third generation sda yeah and uh well, if you heard my dad's story then you know it's not all roses and I have a good idea of his mindset and the legalism that he was, you know, trying to get out of. But what did it seem like to you growing up? What did it feel like to you?
Speaker 2:Well, at first you know you're a kid, you just see what you see and everything is kind of you know rainbows and unicorns and everything's good. And as you start learning a little bit more, it definitely started leaning more towards very law-heavy, legalistic and you start feeling condemned when you can't keep the law and you know, you kind of go back and forth a little bit on that. But yeah, it was definitely the conservative side of Adventism is what I was raised on.
Speaker 1:So yeah, when did you start realizing that? You know, when you're a kid, like you just said, you don't know. You just know that this is the way they do it and you don't even consider if it's right or wrong. It's just the way, right. How old were you when you were? Just like huh, like other people do it, and you don't even consider if it's right or wrong. It's just the way right. How old were you when you were? Just like huh, like other people do it this way. Other people think this is important. We think this is important, that maybe other people don't. When did that start hitting you?
Speaker 2:well, I mean, I grew up in an sda mecca, so yeah most of my friends were, you know, sda's, and I went to school with them and but even there at least my best friend. He was part of the church but they weren't really religious. They would go, but they were more secular. In his upbringing, I should say His parents were both working too much to do much there, but they just wanted to send their kid to a private school. But he's a great guy, don't get me wrong. He's a surgeon now. So awesome.
Speaker 2:Last I knew, um and uh, you know, growing up in an SDA well, I mean, I, my parents, sacrificed a lot to send me to private school. So, um, growing up, in that you get a little, you know. Yeah, I got a little bit of it. Probably. Probably near the end of grade school I started to feel, you know, feel that, where I couldn't keep the rules. So you know, I knew, I knew I couldn't do it by myself and I wasn't really getting any right answers. But then again, I was also busy living life and not necessarily looking for those right answers.
Speaker 1:So who was God man?
Speaker 2:He was judgmental If I didn't keep the rules, angry, looking for a reason to punish me which wasn't hard to find because I couldn't keep the rules. I mean, don't get me wrong, I wasn't a rebel for the most part, but I also. You know, I wasn't perfect either. Right.
Speaker 2:But yeah, growing up, you know, in grade school, with uh not being popular, uh I was. I was the dork, the geek, and especially come eighth grade when I had to get glasses. But oddly enough I my best friend was the coolest kid in the class. So that helped a little bit and, like I said, he's a great guy. It probably helped that his house was on the way home, so we'd just walk home and stop at his house and hang out.
Speaker 2:Right so um, but yeah, God was always serious. Didn't like the fun things. You know it's okay. It's Friday night, time to, you know, clean everything and before it gets sundown and get serious and time to stop having fun. Like I said, that was more near the end of grade school yeah, so yeah, keep going.
Speaker 1:Man. What? What was like like growing up, high school and what happened?
Speaker 2:well, well, uh, my parents actually met at uh at Laurel Brook in Tennessee Um, private, obviously not. Uh, I don't think they were part of the denomination, maybe at one point. But uh, they, they met there, so they sent me there and uh, at the time they were teaching very fundamentalist views and so you know that reinforced that. And you know you're being a high school kid, you're trying to figure out life and you know things start changing, I would say, near the end of grade school. It's one thing that kind of did not help besides the glasses was I started gaining some weight. So I was, I was kind of pudgy when I started high school and that went away in about four months, three months, because you have to work hard. And then I started, you know, having people and encourage me to work out. So, yeah, I lost like 60 pounds in a couple months, two, three months 60 pounds in a couple, two or three months.
Speaker 1:I guess it was only 50 pounds.
Speaker 2:I was like 160 when I started down to 110 by the first break.
Speaker 1:So came home with like a six-pack and parents are like, wow, that's the that private school money well that I didn't have access to fried chicken in the middle of the night anymore either.
Speaker 2:Wake up hungry and go. But when you sneak down to the basement to get a snack and you have to open a can and you go, well, I gotta eat it all because I can't leave evidence. So, yeah, that's how I got pudgy, but it is what it is. Let's see here.
Speaker 1:How long did you go to Laurelbrook?
Speaker 2:All four. Um, let's see here, how long did you go to laurelbrook all four? Two years, and well, I, I don't. I didn't necessarily appreciate their teaching as far as religious views, because they were extremely and very, very segregated. Um, there was only like one meal a day. You could even eat with the girls, and then it was based on how you walked into the cafeteria and they line you up on either side of the table. So it's very, you know, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I mean high school raging hormones, you know. But what?
Speaker 1:years were you in high school.
Speaker 2:I started in. 96 was my freshman year okay, so you're a couple years.
Speaker 1:A couple years, yeah yeah, I remember when I got to union college there was a guy's entrance and a girl's entrance and, um, they would tell me stories of how in the 50s and 60s, that people would come in and just based on what, how you were lined up, that you got sat at a table. But then, you know, they juked the system and they, they figured out how to sit with other people and I was like I'm hearing it like laurel brook in the 96, 97, 98, they're still.
Speaker 2:They still roll with that style they were still doing that and uh, and yeah, I mean like chapels all segregated, everything segregated. Um, I guess the classrooms weren't as much, but you know better supervision there, so but yeah, I mean you know?
Speaker 2:when you, when you get treated like you're going to do something wrong, you, you might uh look into you don't feel good you trade like a criminal, you act like one, which I was still, for the most part, a real follower, but I was also um good at not getting caught. So if I was going to do anything, which wasn't much, but you know, every once in a while you try and sneak out a little bit, but uh, yeah, were.
Speaker 1:Uh, did you have any interest in spiritual things, or were you just like just going through the motions? This is my life.
Speaker 2:I did to a degree. Uh, you know, you get those spiritual highs a little bit when other people start getting excited, which is, you know, it's not uncommon, but I still didn't. And I realized the other day that in high school, and out of high school a little bit, I didn't actually really want to go to heaven. It sounded boring, very boring. I was just like it's just going to be a bunch of stuffy people playing harps and walking around Like why would I want to go there and why would I want to live forever I don't I mean life's okay.
Speaker 2:But you know that was later on, you know, when life wasn't as good, it's like why would I want to live forever like this? I don I want to live forever like this.
Speaker 2:I don't want to do that so I realized that the other day I was like huh, I guess I didn't actually really even want to go. But you know, in high school and after a couple of years, because they were like, like I said, they were pretty strict there. It's funny They'd have the Sabbath afternoon hikes and and then halfway through the hike they say, ok, okay, swap people you're walking with. So I was the guy that would jump in between the two people that were dating and wanted to still talk and I'd just be like you can ignore me, I'm right here, but I'm separating you two, so now you can continue talking for the second half of the hike. Yeah, I was that guy.
Speaker 2:I was usually the wingman the wingman, your goose yeah, only with a no mustache at the time, yeah so after that, um, don't get me wrong when it comes to practical skills. You know it's a self-supporting institution, so they taught me a lot of practical skills there. I mean I learned anywhere from roofing carpentry about. The only thing I didn't learn was drywall. Um, you know all kinds of things, you know. I mean I was a CNA where I was getting training as a CNA before I left. You know you'd run boilers in the middle of the night, all that. That didn't turn out well, um, probably wonderful people there.
Speaker 1:I'm sure there were wonderful people there.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I believe the staff meant well. Don't get me wrong, I believe they meant well. But my dad ended up being in contact with a guy who used to. I think he actually went to school there and was staffed there until shortly before I got there and he had gone out to Oregon, outside of Portland, and helped start up another one. Oddly enough it was called Laurel Wood. So we went out there and visited because you know, I was telling my parents that I wasn't. You know, I didn't really like this constantly being watched and I mean I was accused of all kinds of things, not usually to my face, but be like, oh, you're dating so-and-so. I was like I'm not dating anybody, like I don't, like I talk to them, but you know they were constantly I don't know it was like high school drama, but it was coming a lot from the staff.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, you feel accused a lot and you're like, no, I'm not interested. So we went out and visited that one in Oregon, outside of Portland I'm trying to remember the Gaston Gaston Oregon and it used to be a conference school and it was shut down. They opened it back up as private self-supporting. Although they had a lot harder time self-supporting, they weren't really set up for it as much, and that was. It was almost like a breath of fresh air when I, when I went out there for my junior and senior and there was I mean, there's still rules, but the segregation was not as much there, obviously separate dorms, but but you know, you could, you could mingle a little bit. Well, a lot more freedom and uh, and that helped. Let's see here check my notes, I don't want to miss anything on that um, and of course you know you're being, uh, being a teenage boy. You get, you get in trouble just from the hormones alone yeah so, um, yeah, definitely not.
Speaker 2:Not proud of everything there, but I was looking for affirmation. I realized that, um, obviously from girls that's preferences for a teenage boy.
Speaker 1:Uh, that's how it? Goes, man Isn't that?
Speaker 2:how it?
Speaker 1:goes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I see I think it was my. Yeah, I guess it would have been early my senior year I finally did start dating, um, and yeah, I guess it would have been early my senior year I finally did start dating. And yeah, I just graduated in 2000 and ended up breaking up with her and getting back together like six months later. And at that point I'm like, well, I guess I better, uh, better seal the deal here if I don't want her to get away again. And so I did end up um, asking her to marry me, and she did.
Speaker 2:At that point in time I was, I had, uh, trained as a CNA right out of high school and I did that for I don't know eight months or so before my roommate who I went to school with, he got me a job at Laser Eye Clinic and as a maintenance man helping him with IT stuff like that, which, yeah, I love that job. I got you know I was treated very well. I got you know I was treated very well. That was I would say. If you're looking for LASIK, I would highly recommend Dr Brian Will because he is probably one of the first employers that actually modeled Christ in me.
Speaker 1:Oh wow. And where was he? In Oregon.
Speaker 2:Vancouver. Actually I ended up moving to Vancouver, so not too far from Portland. Yeah, I was living in Portland as a CNA and then we ended up moving to Vancouver shortly after I got that job, because commuting from suburbs of Portland up to Vancouver every day that's like an hour and a half drive for a 20-minute drive without traffic. So it got old. So anyway, ended up marrying that girl and well, after I lost my virginity to her and you know that had to do the right thing, that had you to be like.
Speaker 1:We got to get married now, huh.
Speaker 2:That was kind of the catalyst, like well, I have to now yeah, to now um, yeah, and so say not too long after that, uh, 9-11 happened, say we got married in. When was that? Yeah, I can't remember now. I, I remember it was september, but I think it was about about a year after that, or no. No, actually no, we got married after. I think it was September, but I think it was about about a year after that, or no. No, actually, no, we got married after, I think it was 2012.
Speaker 1:Um and 2012, you mean or 2002?
Speaker 2:No two, oh yeah, 2002. Sorry, yeah, 2002. I had that in my notes. I probably should have checked. Um, not too long after that, actually, I ended up losing my job. Uh, obviously, nine, 11 job cuts and and everything Sure. And they, they did end up bringing me back.
Speaker 2:I went on unemployment not too long after and then they brought me back for another year and a half or so and then then I came back, uh, lost my job, shortly, I think I want to say it was like 2003. Uh, and I was, I was married, and I remember. So here's I guess I should tell this part of the story I never actually got baptized in high school or grade school. It wasn't until I was getting ready to get married and I yeah, the pastor was like well, I can't baptize you unless you're or I can't marry you guys unless you're baptized, and she was.
Speaker 2:she had already been baptized and I hadn't, and so I was like, well, yeah, I guess why not? And so I did. I mean, I went through the studies a little bit and and I'm not going to say it was a lie, but the majority of the reason was just so I could get married. Yeah, you wouldn't have done it, unless the marriage thing.
Speaker 1:But I mean, you were believing what they were teaching.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean yeah, I believed some truth and a lot of lies I didn't know were lies, obviously, let's see here. So I remember my dad actually calling me not too long after that, after we got married and after I got baptized, and I remember him trying to encourage me in the best way he knew how at the time, and it wasn't that I was against following Christ, but I saw that as I guess I saw that as a now I have to start keeping all the rules and one of those things was I thought I would have to start evangelizing or witnessing or going door to door, because that's one thing I did not like in high school, or going door to door because that's one thing I did not like in high school, and I realize now the main reason I didn't want to do
Speaker 2:that is because I didn't have any good news to share and I couldn't have told you that back then. I was not that wise, but yeah, I wasn't real interested in doing that and I think that's kind of the one thing that just steered me away from from pursuing a relationship with Christ, cause I thought there were certain things that I'd have to do, like I'd be obligated to do them, and yeah, uh, see here, um, you were an adult pretty early in life yeah, I got married in 20 at 21 um like right, I mean getting a job right out of high school.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like, sometimes people screw around in college a little bit more and and they don't take things seriously.
Speaker 2:You had to fend for yourself, right, you had to get a job and start working well, I mean, yeah, I could have probably moved back to michigan at the time, but I didn't really want to. You know, I was dating and I didn't really want to move back to Michigan and you know I didn't want to pack all my stuff up and uh. So I figured, well, I can just get a job here. I didn't have, I didn't know what I wanted to do in college, so why would I go waste money? And my scholarship from Walla Walla College at the time was college was $300. I'm like, well, that's not going to go very far.
Speaker 1:That'll get you a couple of meals in the calf.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's about it, that's about it. Uh, so yeah, I mean I, I just jumped right into the workforce, Um and so not long after losing my job at the laser eye clinic.
Speaker 2:Um, we didn't have. You know, I couldn't find work. I was on unemployment but I couldn't, couldn't find anything at the time, there was really nobody hiring. And so my, my wife at the time, her, her uncle and her aunt and uncle owned a house out in Joseph, oregon. They were planning on living there at some point, but they were still over in McMinnville, I think. And so they said, well, why don't you just go out there and, you know, caretake the property for us and you can live there until you find something. And that was, honestly, that was probably one of the happier times, a little bit more off the grid, you know, just, you go out, explore the woods, go play in the creek. It was literally on the side of Mount Joseph, right next to Hurricane Creek, so it was just beautiful, beautiful area. But, you know, can't find work out there either. So eventually, because my wife at the time she had an uncle in Walla Walla and we decided to start looking up there and she ended up finding a job because she had trained as a phlebotomist, and so she ended up finding a job up in Walla Walla.
Speaker 2:And then I ended up following shortly after once I found a job, packed everything up, brought it up and I started mobile sandblasting and paint. And this is where an important person enters the story, which you'll find out later. I met a man named Josh he was, I was working with him and uh, and he worked there, I think cause it was it was uh, because it was mobile, it was generally seasonal, and so I became friends with him. He lived in a wall of wall as well, and so he was struggling on and off, you know, with with other things like, uh, alcohol and like he was in AA shortly after I met him and anyway. So we he liked to game and he got me a little bit into gaming, uh, computer gaming, and so we would do that together in our downtime At this point my marriage isn't going real fantastic.
Speaker 2:It's struggling a little bit. Neither one of us really knew who we were, definitely didn't know who we were in Christ. Obviously, my tactic was avoidance if I didn't know how to deal with something, so I wasn't making things go very well, just escaping reality. More than anything, she did tend to push going to church a little bit, although not a lot, and so we would go on occasion and I, you know it wasn't really all that enjoyable to me. I didn't want to get anything from it because I didn't, you know, didn't find it. Yeah, I didn't relate to much, much of the stuff that was being taught.
Speaker 2:Um, until one day, uh, while, while a youth chapel, it was a seminary student who gave a sermon. I will never forget the gist of it. I mean forget parts of the sermon. Essentially, he said don't do something just because it's tradition. Search and find out why it's tradition, make it yours and then do it or don't, but learn why. And that that was the gist of the sermon and it was very well given. And I'm like, wow, that was great. And I'm walking out the door thinking, man, that's the best sermon I've ever heard, like this guy's intelligent and everyone around me. Oh, this blasphemy. I can't believe somebody would say that and I'm like, okay, I'm done with this.
Speaker 2:I am done with this and I may have gone to church like one more time after that, but I'm like I'm done. It's like I can't. I can't do this. Well, that was a beautiful sermon.
Speaker 1:Name the thing. Just the that people were against that kind of just intelligent, rational thinking, or what was it?
Speaker 2:I mean that was yeah, that was mostly it Like that that they would call him a call. What he preached heresy, when all he said was think for yourself, study the Bible and learn why we do the things we do, and if the tradition no longer applies, then don't do it. And nobody really seemed to like that, including my wife at the time. She might remember it differently, but I didn't see. I don't remember her being happy with that sermon. I felt like I was the only one that walked out of there with anything.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I was like I don't really want to surround myself with these kinds of people and and so I I remember not long after that, because it was seasonal work, my job ended and so I ended up on unemployment and at this point marriage is really not going very well and I'm still a lot of avoidance and we ended up getting divorced in 2005. So, yeah, about two and a half years of marriage. So I guess it would have been yeah. Yeah, about two and a half years of marriage. So I guess it would have been yeah about a surprise.
Speaker 1:Did it catch you by surprise?
Speaker 2:no, no, she moved out before. Um, I felt like in an attempt to control me, now I'll say something about her and then I don't want to. I don't want to bad talk her. She's about the most stubborn woman I've ever met. You could use rational argument all day long and she would never admit she was wrong. Only one time did she ever admit she was wrong, and that was after she realized that moving out wasn't going to get me to change. It wasn't going to get me to do what she wanted, and she decided she wanted to try and get back together and at that point I was like I'm, I'm done, I'm out, and so we.
Speaker 2:she decided to file. For you know, at that point she realized, I think she'd come over on our anniversary and and realized I was, I was done because was done, because I was out front chatting with a neighbor girl.
Speaker 2:I was like you left like six weeks ago. I don't care anymore, I'm done. And I don't want to make her feel bad if she ever listens to this, which I doubt it but the day she left, that night I went and got a pizza, I got a movie and felt like I had a breath of fresh air. I felt like I could be myself, because we were arguing all the time. It was not pretty. I felt like we were reading two different dictionaries, because I'd say one thing and and she would take it a totally different way. Don't get me wrong. I was not faultless at all. I was definitely not in a great place, but we weren't speaking the same languages either. And I say this to people and I'll still say it I still love her. She still has a piece of my heart. For sure.
Speaker 2:I mean that's, but I I realized at the time I couldn't live with her, and when she moved out I realized that that was, that was probably for the best, and I still, I still think it was. So let's see, where were we at after that? So that's oh five, yep, oh five, uh. Then I started dating the neighbor um, who oddly enough also grew up sda.
Speaker 1:But with the walla walla, then it's not. It's not too hard to find a seventh Avenue as a walla walla.
Speaker 2:Well, I wasn't doing it because she was SDA, she was definitely not practicing.
Speaker 2:She walked away pretty quickly based on her abusive childhood and so her and her roommate were. You know, we all kind of started partying together and so her and her roommate were. You know, we just we all kind of started partying together and, uh, I I do remember going back to this this guy, josh, who I made friends with, um first friend I ever made in Walla, walla. Um, when he heard that, uh, that I got a divorce or that she had left, he came over and started banging on my door. Um, this is before. I don't think I had a cell phone at the time and he's like he came to check on me. He's like I just want to make sure you weren't hanging from the ceiling fan.
Speaker 2:I'm like, well, I don't have a ceiling fan, but no, I'm great and uh, so we, you know we hung out a little bit more. Um, he actually ended up helping me get a job over at the uh bar and casino because he was cooking there, and so I started cooking there with him and you know, you, just you start the party life, um, you know, go to bed at like three in the morning and if you're working at a restaurant is a casino restaurant yeah that.
Speaker 1:I mean that probably where. If you want to know where the party's at yeah, working at a restaurant they'll know.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, yeah, definitely. And so you know. I just, like I said, started partying sex, alcohol and computer games, not the drugs. Plenty of rock and roll, but not the drugs Definitely started questioning all my religious beliefs. I basically decided at that point that I was going to walk away from religion, which I was trying to walk away from legalism and rewire my brain. What I had wasn't working. I knew I couldn't keep the rules and I knew you know, I just I wasn't interested anymore and I remember, like I said, plenty of drinking at the time.
Speaker 2:That's about the time I started drinking. Um, I remember one time, uh, josh had come over and my girlfriend and I were we're drinking we're all three of us drinking together and he had a problem. Like I said, when I met him I think he was an AA, but I was in no place to keep him away from it obviously, and obviously encouraging it a little bit or maybe no, no, actually I don't think he was an AA.
Speaker 2:Uh, he ended up getting blackout drunk. Um decided to take a walk and we lived in apartments and there was like four buildings that looked almost all the same and he could not remember what door, and so he started banging on doors at like two in the morning. Um, needless to say, he got the cops called on him. Uh, he wasn't too happy about getting arrested and uh woke up in jail, not quite sure why he was there right and so we went and visited him and uh uh, that's when.
Speaker 2:That's when he got in back into AA and I, at that point in time, I was working, uh, I think, uh, I think I had already moved on to a different uh job, uh, sandblasting and painting and powder coating and, oddly enough, all those employers and oddly enough, all those employers other than the bar and casino were SDAs. And not that I want to speak badly of them, but they weren't really modeling Christ to me. I felt like they cared more about the money and they would use religion as a way to get more money in a SDA rich town. Sure, they may have meant the best, but I didn't feel that way and that also could have been my perspective. But I started exploring more into new age a little bit at that point, exploring the spiritual realm but not with God as the center.
Speaker 1:So who were you reading, or what were you reading about?
Speaker 2:I actually wasn't reading, um, I was just talking to different people who they would do energy work, uh, reiki and other things like that, and and I mean that world is real sure, it is not of god. That world is real Sure, it is not of God, but it is real.
Speaker 1:There's aspects of it that really kind of make sense. But then when you divorce them from God, like the idea of that we all have energy and energy is flowing through us, and like, if you go into Buddhism, like we have some sanskaras or things that are plugging up our energy and so we need to release those things Well, that sounds like forgiveness in some ways, but in order to get your energy to flow, you just need to release any kind, and so a lot of it can make sense. But then divorce from christ, it's just a little bit more of you. Just try it. You're trying to figure it out.
Speaker 2:You know what I'm saying and I was, and I I always believed there was a higher power. I just refused to believe what I was brought up with because it didn't work for me. I wasn't saying there was no God, I just didn't like the one I was brought up to believe because I didn't feel loved. I felt judged and I believed I was judged because of that. And I believed I was judged because of that, but it wasn't like I was completely closed off to God. Sure.
Speaker 2:And I say that because, uh, one day I ended up getting heat stroke. Uh, about an hour away from from where I normally worked at work, sandblasting out on on a blacktop, and the hottest day of the year, like 115 degrees, and I ended up getting heat stroke. And I remember, on the way back I wasn't driving, thankfully, but the other guy had just sat on a nice air conditioned pickup the whole day and I guess it was too hot for him to work out there. And so I was in a bad way, like I knew I was not feeling good and at that point in time I was definitely exploring a lot of energy work and I started trying to pull in pure energy to cleanse my body. And I sat there. And I sat there trying and trying, and trying, and I forgot this until a couple of months ago, when I was talking to Jadra, I think I finally did say okay, I'm open to anybody. If God wants to heal me, let him heal me. And it was almost instant. I got a like. It was like an icy wind just went from the top of my head to the bottom of my toes and that sigh of relief and I fell asleep.
Speaker 2:I was, I was healed and I I thought, you know, of course, I woke up and went about my way and totally forgot that I'd asked God to help and did not give him the credit for that. I will, I'll give him the credit for that now, but no, I mean, and that just kind of, I didn't explore it a ton, but I explored it some. So I ended up quitting that sandblasting job and ran through most of my savings and before I finally got hired on Walmart and worked nights there for I don't know, I can't remember a few months, which I don't recommend, but it is what it is. It helped pay the bills.
Speaker 1:It'll take years off your life. Man, Working nights is a hard job, man.
Speaker 2:So I decided I was done with that and I went and applied at the Walla Walla prison and eventually got hired there and started in there 2008 or so, and that'll take years off your life too, but I had fun.
Speaker 1:I've always wondered about that. Were you a guard? I was, yes, okay, explain in a way that you can uh why that would take years off your life. Because is it just?
Speaker 2:it's so tense every day um, yeah, you have to basically have a hyper awareness, um, from when you get there, uh, to when you go, because you know you don't want to get stabbed. So you have to be hyper aware. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't want to say you're constantly worried about that. You can go sit down in a place where there aren't any inmates and relax a little bit for a short time, but not very long. A little bit for a short time, but not very long.
Speaker 1:And, yeah, I would describe that job as basically working in a dangerous adult daycare. So you're constantly in a state of stress, you're constantly in your body.
Speaker 2:That'll do damage to your body for sure, and after a time it gets very difficult to turn that off. And so you find yourself. You might be able to turn it off when you get home, maybe, but you go out to a restaurant, you go find a corner booth, you can watch all the entrances and you're generally armed at all times because you never know. I mean, you see what would be described as the dredges of society. You see the violence that they're willing to participate in and the fact that the main reason you're not getting stabbed is because they haven't had the opportunity. I'm not saying they're all like that, they're definitely not but there are many that would happily do that there's a reason they're in there.
Speaker 2:There is a reason they're in there. Yeah, there's definitely a reason they're in there.
Speaker 1:Did you ever have any violence towards you? Did that ever happen?
Speaker 2:No, no, I helped break up a couple of fights. No, I helped break up a couple of fights, I think, and even there, not necessarily wanting to follow God, I had a suspicion that the reason that most fights either happened on my days off or when I was unable to respond was because my parents were praying for me. Oh man.
Speaker 2:I would say most of the major ones, because they were some pretty major ones when there were some pretty nasty staff injuries. I remember I want to say it was 2011, I believe in January, not in our prison, but over in Monroe, there was an officer that was strangled with her own mic cord.
Speaker 1:Murphy.
Speaker 2:And that really brought it home yeah, it really brought it home how dangerous it was. And that was actually shortly after I had purchased a motorcycle and met some friends that I worked with who invited me to start riding with them.
Speaker 1:And that sounds bad. You just want to be a statistic man. You're just like raising, like I've got the kind of dangerous job. How do I find a way to get there dangerously?
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, but I got to tell you motorcycles I will not sell my motorcycle. Ain't going to happen. I love it. It's exhilarating, it's. It's a different kind of freedom, but it's. It's beautiful and uh. So I I became friends with them, ended up joining the riding club and, that that being said, you know we're all either law enforcement or corrections or supporting those type of people and know we're all keeping it above board. It's, it's a, and I got to say they stood by me through a lot.
Speaker 1:And praise the Lord.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that I I honestly think that that was, that was God's doing. Um, it wasn't too long after I met them, and maybe six months or so, I ended up breaking up with that girlfriend that I'd started dating after my first marriage. That relationship ended up somewhat similarly. Things weren't going well, we weren't communicating well, we were living together and, yeah, I just started withdrawing again, mainly into computer games.
Speaker 1:What games were you playing? I asked early and I don't think you heard me what game like say that again see, no, I didn't actually hear you yeah, uh, the first one.
Speaker 2:Uh, at the first divorce I think I was playing star wars galaxies. That was kind of big back then. That's what my uh friend josh had gotten me into. And I think in the second one I was playing World of Warcraft.
Speaker 1:I was going to guess it was World of Warcraft. There's something about those games that I don't know. How is it that they just keep you on there, like people devote years of their life to World of Warcraft? What is it about it?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, they're designed that way of their life to world of warcraft. What is it about it? Well, I mean, they're designed that way um, most of the time it's you know, if you want something you have to do little incremental things or a lot of things, and you know, they, they make it, so it just well. Just do one more thing before I log off. You know, let's just do one. That's just, that's the way they design it, and they're good at designing, that's for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like the casino. People know how to keep you in the casino. The video game people know how to keep you on the same with a doom scrolling on Facebook and Instagram. They're not dummies, they're making money.
Speaker 2:Nope.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, that was about 2012. And I remember one day I showed up for a ride and and they're like, oh, where's your girlfriend? Cause she was, she'd ride with me. She didn't have her. Well, she did have her own motorcycle, but I bought it for her and she still didn't want to ride it. But that's fine, she just wanted to ride on the back of mine, which was.
Speaker 2:So they asked me where she was and I'm like, uh, yeah, I don't know, I haven't seen her in like three weeks. They're like, man, that's what we're for, call us, we'll come over, we'll hang out. You know, that's that's. That's what this is about. It's, I mean, and they basically did become my local family and what kind of triggered the cause she left in a similar manner, she just moved out and uh, cause I was usually not willing to commit to a breakup, I was just going to ignore things, but that's avoidance was my thing. And uh, yeah, they, they became my local and I ended up buying a house, which I was in the process of doing that when things kind of took a turn and she moved out, because I started house shopping without her and she was just feeling left out and, like I said, I don't necessarily want to talk bad about anybody, but I'm 99% sure she was cheating on me at the time.
Speaker 2:And that's one of the reasons that I wasn't going to include her, and so I did end up house shopping and, strangely enough, I'm pretty sure God made this happen as well I wouldn't have given him credit at the time. Made this happen as well. I wouldn't have given him credit at the time but I found a house that was about a half a block away from our club president and our sergeant at arms, who lived like two doors apart. So that was like yeah, that that worked and a little small little house I could afford, and and that turned out to be a very good thing. It wasn't terribly long after that, my cousin, who I grew up with, ended up dying and he ended up. He was searching and he searched in the wrong places and ended up overdosing.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry to hear that, and yeah, and it wasn't, I want to say right. In that time period as well, Josh had ended up moving over to Anacortes, the other side of Washington, and he called me one night, ready to commit suicide. He was miserable. His marriage was basically nonexistent, just roommates with the kid. His extramarital affairs had broken off. He was struggling. At that point I know he was getting back into drugs, cocaine. He was a long ways away. I couldn't really help him. Looking back, I had no way to help him other than hey, don't do that. And so, April 2013, he came over into town to visit and, as usual, we got together and uh, and he liked drinking.
Speaker 2:And at the time I was very heavily drinking Um. Usually I would drink myself to sleep Um, so generally hard whiskey, cause it was cheaper that way uh, whiskey or bourbon or things like that. And so he came over and we ended up getting fairly, fairly drunk and he decided that, since I worked at the prison, I was going to mule cocaine into the prison for him and that uh like he was.
Speaker 1:He was like a plug for somebody in the prison and he wanted you to do that.
Speaker 2:No, I don't his, uh, his bartender over in anacortes actually was the drug dealer and he had told that guy that I worked in prison who came up with the brilliant idea of I was gonna mule drugs.
Speaker 1:This is these guys need to watch a movie. Man, man, so many movies. This is how they get caught.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so he uh, I don't remember if I told him that my cousin had died about a month before from an overdose. I've never been into drugs. Um, you probably couldn't have picked a worse time to try and convince me to do something like that.
Speaker 3:You wouldn't have been able to do it any time anyway, but you just you couldn't have picked a worse time to try and convince me to do something like that.
Speaker 2:You wouldn't have been able to do it any time anyway, but you just. You couldn't have picked a worse time.
Speaker 1:Like.
Speaker 2:I hated drugs.
Speaker 1:Oh, you were going to be mad, not vulnerable.
Speaker 2:Okay, Not mad but, like I had, I wanted nothing to do with drugs. Not to mention I knew because the day I started the prison at the prison started training there was a guy who was mealing drugs and got caught and went to prison to live there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like your meals here.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I I'm like no, this isn't. You know, I'm not, I'm not going to do this. Um, he didn't take well to that and because I, I believe at this point he was uh, I think he was blackout drunk. I'm not sure he knew what he was doing, but he started, uh, and this was an all night affair. Um, he started randomly attacking me. Um, he was a smoker, so he would want to go outside and smoke a cigarette. And I was constantly trying to tell him like this, you know, this ain't going to happen. And he, I think he finally started getting through his head that I wasn't going to do it. And then he's like, well, I'm just going to finish this half gallon of whiskey, you know, and I'm like, man, that's going to kill you, Like you've already had a lot, and I don't know if it would have killed him or not, but I was trying to convince him not to do it. It was like I didn't care about the whiskey, I can buy another one, Not a big deal, but I didn't want to die. Right.
Speaker 2:And so he started getting violent. Um started uh kicking and hitting me. Um, I think he bit me on the head at least once, and it was kind of random, you know, a punch or a kick here.
Speaker 1:Punch, kick, bite on the head. You know as naturally.
Speaker 2:Well, I was not giving up on him, I was trying to. I thought I was trying to save his life. I thought I was trying to save his life and he ended up. So the way my house was laid out at the time, that probably still is to this day.
Speaker 2:There's a couple of steps down to a little, I don't know, I'd say a three-by three area with a door facing outside, but the steps kind of come inside and on the across from the steps, um, across from the door, you got like cabinets and across from them you got co-hooks on the wall. With it I hung my, my, my mop and my broom and stuff there and I walked in after him after he was smoking. He walked up into the kitchen and as I got to the top step he turned around and kicked me in the chest. And when I say he kicked me in the chest, this man was a natural martial artist. He was very fast, even drunk, very precise, and I flew across the across the opening there. And what I didn't realize until later was I missed getting the back of my skull impaled on that coat hook by probably an inch Mercy.
Speaker 2:I think there was an angel there.
Speaker 1:Praise the Lord.
Speaker 2:So at that point I finally got it in my head that maybe I should fight back. So I stood up and I started trying to rehearse moves. I'm not a scrapper, I'm, I'm just not a scrapper. But you know, I've been trained in self-defense and and other techniques. And so I thought, yeah, if I just do this and do that and I was still in with enough presence of mind to realize that, yeah, now if I start doing that, he's going to kill me, like I can't. I may be stronger than him, but I'm not faster than him at all and so I didn't end up doing that, I just brushed by him and I went in the bathroom and at this point I think this is about 6 o'clock in the morning, like I said, all night affair.
Speaker 2:He said well, I won't actually repeat what he said, but he said okay, you don't want to do this, fine, tell me. You don't want to do this, fine, tell me, you don't want to do this. I'll forever know you as a blankety blank and I'll leave. I said just f and leave. Yeah, right, and so he did. At this point I I think I'd already tossed my uh, my shirt in the wash because it had blood on it. Thankfully I was drunk so I didn't actually get harmed. That badly Felt like a freight train hit me, so he left and I come out and I'm standing in my hallway between my living room and my kitchen, and I'm just standing there like what happened, Just trying to process man.
Speaker 2:What happened? Just trying to process man, what happened? I have no idea what happened and I don't even know how long I was standing there, but the next thing I know, my front door is rattling in its frame and it is a solid wooden door, and it is rattling and I'm seeing daylight come through the doorframe as it rattles and I'm like oh crap. And so he bangs on the door again, and at that point I turned and went into my spare room and did what I had trained myself to do, which was grab my shotgun. Oh no.
Speaker 2:And I watch him walk around the house through the window and I stand where the other entrance to the kitchen from the hallway and I stand there next to my fridge and I think I yelled just leave. And he banged on the back door one time and then with one kick he kicked it in. Oh mercy.
Speaker 2:Shattered the doorframe and he came up inside up the two stairs and I gave him one more command as I racked a shell to just leave and he didn't and I fired and he looks surprised that I would do that. And I kind of felt surprised that I would do that and I kind of felt surprised that I would do that. But it's what I trained myself to do. So I set the shotgun down away as he fell to the ground and I grabbed my cell phone and I immediately called 911. I scared the operator because I was way too calm. I guess I should mention I was dating that particular operator's ex at the time. You knew the operator Well, the 911 operator. She had actually been a 911 operator and she worked at the police station still, and I had just started dating her.
Speaker 1:So you know her name. You're like hey, susan, send a.
Speaker 2:No, it wasn't her, it was her ex.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay.
Speaker 2:So, needless to say, he didn't know who I was at the time, but when he found out he's like oh, that guy's guilty, he's, he was way too calm. And that's the thing about first responders is, when you get in that mode, you're not freaking out, you're calm, you're cool, you're giving that, you're giving pertinent information. So so I was Also.
Speaker 1:some people get calmer when events get crazier. That's how their mind works.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think part of that training at the prison had kind of become that way A little bit more, or it reinforced it anyway. So I'm on the phone with the operator or the 911 operator, and and, uh, josh stops breathing. And so I said, well, I'm going to put you on speakerphone or I'm going to start CPR. And so I did, um, until he told me to, uh, to come out of the house with my hands up, and I did.
Speaker 1:Like just a squad car showed up, or a couple squad cars.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, yeah, they weren't very far away, took them about a few minutes, and so they asked if they could cuff me, and I said of course, and I'm not resisting anything. And so they sat me on my front porch and that's when I lost it. I was done, I didn't have to be in control, and so I was done. I lost, and I cried for probably at least an hour and a half straight, I don't know. I was out and uh, so, yeah, there's where I started my 12 hours in a police station planning my life in prison, because, in my mind, you didn't mix alcohol and guns. You didn't do it, and I had mixed them. So, therefore, I was going to go to prison, and it's just the way my mind worked at the time. And, having worked in prison for four and a half years already, I was like, well, this is not going to be fun. I kind of know what to expect and it's not going to be pretty so, near the probably I'd say the eight hour mark, somewhere in there, I started to realize, well, maybe I'm not going to prison Because I did actually follow the law. And so, yeah, about 12 hours later, they took me back home and, yeah, that was.
Speaker 2:I walked in my front door and they said, yeah, watch out for for reporters, they'll probably try and come and corner you, don't talk to them. And so I made sure all the blinds were closed and and I just was just standing in my living room I can't see my kitchen from my living room. I didn't want to go in there. I can't see my kitchen from my living room. I didn't want to go in there. And I was just standing there like what am I doing? What am I going to do? And my world just got completely rocked. I just killed a man.
Speaker 2:And that's when another knock came on the door and three of my hardheads members the president, the vice president and the sergeant at arms, who all just happened to be living up the street at the time, came down and got me. They said get some clothes, let's go. You're going to stay at my house. Like I said, family. They were amazing. And so, even there, yeah, I stayed there for a few weeks, and it happened to be that the regular coroner was not on duty at the time, and so the assistant the regular coroner probably would have cleaned some stuff up a little bit. The assistant not so much.
Speaker 1:Did you say coroner?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:They would come to the scene, or are you talking about, like with the autopsy?
Speaker 2:No, they came to the scene to collect.
Speaker 1:Oh, so they just left it the way it was. Okay, that's true, yeah, so they just left it the way it was.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, that's true, yeah, they just basically left it the way it was and then said you're clear to go back in. And you know, the investigators or they should say the detectives said, nailed my back door shut because they like we can't shut it otherwise, and took me back and then so a couple of weeks I think it might've been about a week later, once again my friends are there to help me and they go help me clean up the blood. And yeah, it's like I said family. I didn't have family in the area, but they were my family and still to this day they're very good people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's awesome. I thought they were able to be there for you.
Speaker 2:So after that I moved back in my house, uh, fixed the back. You know other other hard heads I gotta say I know I say that a lot, but they're just. You know they were helping me in every in every way. You know they come over, help me replace my door. The ones that knew how, some of them not so much, but you know, just helping me all the time.
Speaker 2:And and I guess I didn't mention I I had just gotten a puppy, like a month before. And so you know they, they realized something happened when the police cars went flying by they didn't see me get taken to the police station. All they saw was a body coming out on a gurney out of my house and they're like oh. So they collected up my dog and took her and they were just hoping, they were just hoping they didn't know. And so, yeah, when they saw police treason, drop me back off, they came and collected me and I stayed there, for it might have been a month, I don't remember. But and I stayed there for it might have been a month, I don't remember.
Speaker 2:But that particular relationship I had started didn't last. We weren't really that good for each other. Anyway, she's a great lady, but at that point I was very alone. I had my friends, but I still lived alone and suicidal thoughts started to come in, just laying there in bed thinking about putting a pistol in my head. But I couldn't do it. And I knew immediately I couldn't do it Because I would never do that to my family. I could, even if I wanted a way out, I wouldn't do it.
Speaker 1:So I wouldn't say it was ever in danger, true danger like you never made a plan, you were just no thoughts would come in your head no, I would just be laying there and the thoughts would come in my head.
Speaker 2:Like I said, I wanted a way out.
Speaker 1:I wasn't happy right and did your folks know anything about what was going on in your life. How often would you communicate with them?
Speaker 2:Yeah, they knew. I think I ended up calling them the next day. It all kind of became a blur.
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Speaker 2:Let's get back to the episode. Thankfully, I think God knew that I needed some, some unconditional love, and that's that's what dogs are good for. So that did help a lot and that gave me something to do while I wasn't working, and that was that was helpful. And obviously you know friends and I would yeah, either way, I was under investigation for a time. You know they had to make sure that I actually hadn't mulled any drugs, things like that, and I get it. They paid me, which was nice, but I started running out of money because I started working on my house. You know, it adds up pretty quick and I was.
Speaker 2:I was getting a little bored, but I finally was happy to get back to work just to help keep my mind off of things, obviously things that start changing in my in my head a little bit. Um, I was working evening shift, so I would. I I swore off drinking for a short time until I broke up with that girlfriend and then I went back to it and, yeah, I would. I would wake up in the morning and just be browsing the internet and I would see something like uh, I remember one thing in particular. That's about the time that disturbed came out with the sound of silence, and that is a powerful song, like their version of it is extremely powerful and I'd just be sitting there bawling. You know, just things like that just started making me cry. I, you know I started, I don't know. It definitely gave me a much greater appreciation for life. Sure.
Speaker 2:That did not stop me, however, from continuing to carry a pistol almost everywhere I could, continuing to to carry a pistol almost everywhere I could. Um, obviously, you know, fear is a motivator that will. It's not a good motivator, but it'll motivate you to do some things that aren't great, um, even though I'd say at the time, my biggest fear probably actually was having to use it. And I remember having one nightmare. I did end up going and seeing the staff counselor, which did help quite a bit, and I remember having only one dream about it, and somehow I was at my cousin's house from when I grew up, the cousin that had passed and his brother, and I don't even know what I was doing there, but I was there and Josh showed up.
Speaker 1:And in my dream I'm like dude.
Speaker 2:Dude, you're alive. I don't know how it?
Speaker 2:happened, but you're alive and I was happy and things escalated and I ended up shooting him in my dream and I'm like what is going on? That time it was with the pistol, but it was just like. But the worst part about it was I woke up and I didn't feel like I did anything wrong. I didn't feel like I had done anything wrong in the dream and I woke up and I felt like. I felt like a dirt bag. I'm like I would do it again. I don't, yeah, so that's why I would describe it as a. It was definitely a nightmare. Um, yeah, so I, I would describe it as a. It was definitely a nightmare.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I would occasionally go and see the counselor not a lot, he would, you know, he would encourage me to do things like exercise and you know, and go out, spend time with friends things like that, which are good things, and they do help, and and go out, spend time with friends things like that, which are good things and they do help. And at this point I think I'd been working at the prison, I think about five years. See, this would have been 2000,. Yeah, 2013 still, and in october, my friend. That also because, like I said, most of the hardheads worked at the prison. Um, he, he said, man, I've got this girl, you could really got me. And she works at the prison and and I'm like, oh, that's usually, like, usually, when you work there, you don't, you don't date there. Um, it's generally not well, I shouldn't say that a lot of people do, but it's like it just kind of like a carnival and it doesn't last, um, but I'm like, okay, well, that's fine.
Speaker 2:And the funny thing is him and his girlfriend both worked there and both met her in the same day and then both came home and said, hey, I got somebody that Jonathan should meet. I'm like, okay, yeah, I'll give it a shot. And so they ended up introducing me and he introduced me in the parking lot. She was running late and he he stalled because we would ride to work together. He stalled long enough to introduce me to her.
Speaker 2:She walked off and I turned back to him and was like Are you kidding? She's like a 10. He's like Go for it, man. I'm like, okay, why not? What if I got to lose? Man, I'm like, okay, why not? What if I got to lose? And so, yeah, we ended up. Our first date was a motorcycle ride because she was actually pining for her motorcycle. She had actually just gotten a divorce and uh, not that long before, or I should say it was in the process of getting divorced, and so so we went for a motorcycle ride and it just kind of all went on from there, and that's how I met my wife in prison.
Speaker 2:Met your wife in prison, Well, in the parking lot. But yeah, we just started talking Better story if it's in prison.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. So that was yeah, that would have been 2013. So that was yeah, that would have been 2013. And then it took about six months, maybe eight months, before I asked her to marry me and we were living together at that point at her place, and so we got married in 2015. And at this point I had, you know, things were looking up. I was, I had slowed down with the drinking a little bit, but not completely quit, but life was looking a lot better and so we got married officially actually are the president of our writing club married us, and the best part well, maybe not the best part about the wedding, but one of my favorite parts was him and I are kind of star Wars nerds, and so we came up with this plan to uh, to march up the aisle just him and I walk up the aisle. To uh the the throne room theme song from the death star, yeah, from the first one Right and we walked up the aisle and everybody's chuckling and we're just smiling.
Speaker 2:It was good, I mean, and I knew she was a keeper pretty early on. But when she said, oh yeah, go for it.
Speaker 1:When I suggested that music, she she's like, go for it and I'm like on the millennium falcon and that beat the Kessel Run in under 12 parts. I know right.
Speaker 2:Exactly. So, yeah, that was good stuff and I do remember. At this point my dad is starting to attempt to reach out to me a little bit more. We were kind of all business for many years there and at the reception he gave a speech and he said he was proud of me. That means a lot, it means a lot, it means a lot and that went a ways to healing our relationship. Or maybe I would say that was the beginning of it, or maybe not, I don't. And during this whole time I'm still struggling, not just with with the drinking. But you know, april's are rough. Even there are like times of high stress, uh, like getting ready for the wedding.
Speaker 2:My wife would, uh, she'd be like okay, go take a drive or go see a counselor One of the two. You're getting angry easily. This isn't good, and so I did. I would usually just take a drive and listen to music, um, yell it and scream and cry, let it out, and that would help for a time. Let it out, and that would help for a time. Uh, yeah, so in 2019. So we I guess we lived there for a while uh, we decided to buy another house in walla walla nice, nice big house on an acre, um, fixer-upper. But you know, we started fixing it up. I was happy to do so, and we're both working in the prison, making great money and, uh, not really drinking anymore. Definitely not drinking any less yeah but still still struggling, struggling.
Speaker 2:And uh, yeah, july of 2020. I guess I didn't speak about my, my siblings. Um, you probably haven't, you might, I don't know. You're not probably all that far away from jennifer. She lives in tennessee right now. What part? Uh, yes, I can't remember. I've never been there, she just I think.
Speaker 1:I think floyd and I hung out when he was down there at her house, so it must not be. It might be three hours from me or something like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think. Yeah, it's not all that far. That's what I was hoping to go visit her this Christmas, but we ended up moving instead.
Speaker 1:So how many, how many siblings?
Speaker 2:Well, there's two of us, biological, but from Laurelbrook. There was a girl who came over from New Zealand and we basically adopted her into the family.
Speaker 2:She was my sister's best friend, and I say was because, unfortunately, in July of 2020, she passed away. It was sudden, it was an aneurysm, and I remember when I was out there for my cousin's funeral in Michigan, I actually stayed at her house and I remember and this is God she started telling me how she was starting to study the Bible again at night and she was keep in mind, she was married to a woman at the time, so not, I mean, she was definitely not part of a religion, but she was coming back to God.
Speaker 2:Praise the Lord, I'm fairly certain I'm going to see her again. She believes it. So that was rough.
Speaker 2:I remember one day and this is I mean you can say however you want, but I remember one day I was working on the house there and I usually had a few beers while I was working in the evening and I was working and I just couldn't focus and then all of a sudden I just laid down and started crying and I'm like what is going on? But now it's just probably me. You know, I probably just haven't let it out for a while and the next morning my mom called and told me that Amy had died. I'm like, oh, maybe that's actually about the right time. It's like I felt that I mean, you know we weren't, we hadn't talked in a while, but still, you know we had a connection. Sure. She was basically a sister to me.
Speaker 2:So so come October of 21,. I think you know what happened right around those times. Tell me, man Working in the prison, I saw this coming immediately upon announcement of having a shot, I said they're going to make us take the shot. I know they're going to. It's going to be the first place they're going to make it mandatory in this state. And I told people that they didn't believe me. Sure enough, a year later, it's exactly what happened and I'm like, okay, I guess I'm not going to get a different job because I'm not taking that.
Speaker 2:Um, I firmly believed it was not a good thing, and I mean, I, I considered it, but not for very long. I I'm a pretty stubborn guy and I knew it wasn't for me. And what bothered me was that I had no choice in that If I wanted to keep that job, I had no choice, and so that was my bigger problem, and I realized that free will is very important to me for a reason. Now, that's how God operates. He operates on free will, and even though I wasn't religious at the time I wouldn't even necessarily still call myself religious I did file for religious exemption and they granted it, and then they said sorry, we can't accommodate you. It's like, ok, so all the stuff we've been doing all this time, you know, wearing masks and testing twice a week, that's not enough, nope. Oddly enough, the cases of COVID in that prison on staff actually went up when all of us got fired. This is funny how that works.
Speaker 2:But yeah, so I was literally working for the prison system, then uh, 13 years, 13 years, one month, yeah, 13 years and one month to the day. And I, I walked out of there with my head held high and a lot of pride and a swagger because I did not bend. And you know, I wouldn't say the pride was good, although sticking up from what I believe was good, and I watched a lot of people start out by saying no, not going to happen, not going to happen, I won't do it, I won't do it. And then they would eventually just, you know, bend over and okay, whatever, I don't know what I would do without my job. It's like I'll find a different one, I'll eat out of a dumpster, I don't care, I'm committed. And thankfully, my wife came to the same conclusion, if not for slightly different reasons, more for health reasons, she's like it probably would kill me. And so we ended up losing our jobs, which was fine. Um, I got a.
Speaker 2:We ended up finally getting unemployment out of that because we, you know, we weren't terminated for disciplinary or anything like that, uh, and through that I was able to get my CDL, which I was like. Well that you know, even if I don't even get a job with the CDL, that still looks good on your resume. And in that process we ended up moving out to Idaho with my in-laws, her mom and her stepdad, and so, yeah, that was 20, see February of 22 and April of 22. I don't know why things happen in April, but they do. Oh, I guess I I didn't share one other thing that I I knew pretty early on in dating my wife. I didn't think it was really a coincidence that my stepson's birthday is April 7th, which was the same day that I shot Josh on his first birthday, and I felt like the universe was trying to balance itself out, was trying to balance itself out.
Speaker 2:And so April of 22 were in Idaho and my, my granddad dies, my mom's dad, um, but I did get to see him right before he passed, thankfully, and so that was good and I started, uh, driving concrete truck, which is kind of what I do now, although now I'm running the plant batch plant. But yeah, that was. I settled in Idaho pretty well, I think. I like it here. And yeah, so living with in-laws is hard, I'm sure you know. I think you said you did that.
Speaker 1:My wife did that. The perfect family is a great big family that lives about three hours away. You know, we have family around here and we love it. But yeah, family is a tricky thing sometimes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I ended up going back. We still go back to Walla Walla every once in a while. It's only three and a half hours away now, but I was still moving some stuff a little bit and one of the guys I worked with at the prison he's very, very open about his relationship with God and normally I was not real interested, but I respected the guy and I would listen. And he, he told me, um, he also got fired with all of us cause he didn't want to take the shot, and so he, he was telling me he's like yeah, god told me it's time to move on. God got me this job. I was unable to run the mile, or I think it was a mile and a half for qualifications, physical PT tests, essentially. He was like I was unable to do it, my knee was killing me, it was injured, and I said, god, if you want me to have this job, you know, do what you need to. And God healed his knee and so he went and ran and he's like my knee still doesn't hurt it's healed.
Speaker 2:And and then he said, well, now God told me it's time to move on, there's something better for you. And I'm like, okay, I listened to him. So I happened to be back over there, um, and I tried to get together. You know, rally the troops of the stubborn ones that refused, and he was the only one available. So I ended up going out to dinner with him and talking, and we were standing out by our cars getting ready to leave and he just started talking about things that were changing for him, about how he no longer really listened to music he would just usually listen to sermons or the Bible on audio, audio Bible and how it was changing him a little bit.
Speaker 2:And normally I would have been like, yeah, I'm not interested in walk away. But for some reason I just kind of stood there and some of the things he was saying were you know, they're cluing me into, you know, to the evils of, uh, or the fact that most artists have actually sold their soul to the devil and it's not a good thing. And I it started opening my eyes a little bit because you know, at that point I'm listening to, to listening to heavy rock, metal, stuff like that. I was angry, you know I was. You know I got my nice house taken away from me and, you know, had to sell it and I mean, don't get me wrong, we walked away pretty well off from that, but still God took care of us. But I was still angry, you know Things weren't going my way.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I was listening to some pretty heavy stuff and I started listening to the lyrics a little bit more and it just really started popping out Like these, these guys are actually literally singing about selling their soul to the devil.
Speaker 2:A lot of them are singing about the fact that they're upset. They sold their soul to the devil. They're like I don't think I got out very well on this deal. It's like, well, yeah, probably not. So that was kind of a seed planted and that was in, I think, september of 22. In April of 23, after not doing very well, still avoiding, my wife was just about fed up with me and we were arguing. More Funny thing is, I realized last week I brought my legalism with me. I tried to run from it and I brought it with me. I just didn't bring God with me. I couldn't. I tried to run from it and I brought it with me. I just didn't bring God with me.
Speaker 1:What were you legalistic about then?
Speaker 2:Just just wanting to make rules for my son and, and you know, have him follow the rules, and you know, and I meant well, but it was all about the rules, not about the relationship, Sure, and so I started counseling and, and God, definitely this, this man definitely has the spirit of God in him, he, he didn't immediately, you know, start in with God.
Speaker 2:He asked me how I felt about it and he would let me lead in that department. But he immediately, you know, I thought I was just like, well, I probably just have PTSD. And so I told him my story. He said, okay, well, it sounds like you've pretty much dealt with that. And he gave me a couple more coping mechanisms Don't let it, you know. Don't let it, you know, acknowledge it, feel it and then move on.
Speaker 2:And then he said how's your relationship with your son? He zeroed right in on the problem. I didn't know it was a problem, but he did, he figured it out real quick. And then he says how's your relationship with your dad? And, like I said, he, he's a spirit filled man and he, I think he, understands that relationships are, are where it's at. And so we started diving into that a little bit. I think I had a couple of sessions before going to the family union slash memorial service for my granddad a year later in Missouri, not too far from where you guys got together last time, and my dad was definitely seeing, you know, he was seeing that where I was focused on the rules and on being right far more than the relationship, and so he, he spoke a lot of truth into me and uh, yeah, that was good, I was in a place I could actually hear it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how were you able to receive it? You were just like you're related.
Speaker 2:Sitting on the couch crying, but I felt love I did From everyone in the room. Oddly enough, I didn't really feel shame either, even though it was a room full of people I mean, they're all relatives and that was a healing time. It was good. Let's see here.
Speaker 1:Where are we at 2023.
Speaker 2:So at this point my dad's being very open and honest and and that was good and he was speaking straight to my heart there and it started. It started me being a little bit more open to his, you know to to a relationship About the middle of 23, I started, I was, I think I was healed enough that, even though for months I'd be every morning, I'd be like I'm going to quit drinking, I'm done.
Speaker 2:And by the afternoon I was at the grocery store picking up another 12 pack If I was out. I just didn't have the willpower. And about the summer of 23,. I ran out and finally didn't go to the grocery store because I didn't feel like.
Speaker 2:I needed it, I was starting to heal and it was funny because we went. We went to to go floating on the river. You know, middle of hot, hot summer day and we stopped at the grocery store and my wife's like you're going to get yourself some beer. I'm like no. It's like do you have some? No, are you quitting? Yeah, she's like well, that's an interesting time to quit. We're going to go float the river. I'm like I don't need it. I feel okay. And uh, I did. I felt I finally started feeling okay.
Speaker 2:But there were still times like I wouldn't go buy a beer, but then I would still look for wouldn't go buy a beer, but then I would still look for reasons to go have a burger so I could have a beer. You know, I still, I still felt the urge, but I was able to somewhat control it. Mostly, obviously I wasn't going to drive drunk, so I'd have to make sure I only had one and I'd have to make sure I had plenty of time. Um, and that lasted for. So I I would say maybe I'd have two or three drinks a week at most. That's pretty good, coming down from five to seven a night.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'd say that's uh, and you know I I'd wanted to, I just didn't have the, I didn't have the willpower to do it. I'd wanted to, I just didn't have the, I didn't have the willpower to do it. So, talking with my counselor, and he really started speaking life into me because I was getting caught in that trap of my value came from what I did.
Speaker 2:I was trying to remodel a house and work full time and I couldn't do it and I knew I couldn't do it and trying to have a relationship with my son and my wife and I couldn't do it all and I felt like there was just way too much on my plate. And meanwhile it's not going good at all with my. It's not a peaceful home. It's not a peaceful home and and my wife is starting to talk about buying a house and moving and I was just so tired. I was literally in the middle of remodeling a bathroom and building an alcove around the tub and I was just so tired. I was like I don't want to move again, Just moved two years ago.
Speaker 2:And so I had a question about something. I don't even remember what it was a question about something about the plumbing. And so I called my dad on yeah, I called him on on WhatsApp so we could do a video call, so I could show him what I was talking about. And apparently I was ready and he started telling me a lot. He just started speaking life, Until I finally surrendered.
Speaker 1:You just called him. You're like hey, I have a question about this plumbing. And he's like do you know that you've always been son? And you're like yes, I'm always been like like.
Speaker 2:I think we were on the phone for like three hours.
Speaker 1:I remember him telling us about this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think we were on the phone for like three hours and I think the final question that I asked and finally allowed me to surrender was I said so, you're not saying that I'm going to have to follow a law, you're saying that I'm going to want to. He's like, yes, I said okay and that was it.
Speaker 2:Want to what Like live right, I want to follow the law. I didn't want to try and white knuckle it. I mean, I've been white knuckling it for years, trying to just be a decent person to my family, and I wasn't interested in having the ten commandments hanging over my head condemning me again. But essentially what I heard was and I believed it. This is where, this is where the good stuff really starts. I believed that I would have a change of heart and I would want to. I would want to follow God and want to do what he asked me to do, and sure enough I did. And I guess through this time I probably won't come as any surprise. I definitely watched porn. I wouldn't say I struggled with it per se we're talking like maybe once a month but it was one of those. You know, I feel empty and I feel empty and nothing satisfies. Well, maybe I'll try this.
Speaker 1:Well, the body always remembers where the dopamine rush came from, right and so there's a lot of dopamine.
Speaker 2:All I got was shame For sure, but that was one of those things you know started telling me about, about your podcast and you know, he told me about tyler's podcast and I was like okay, so, so he was set free from that, okay, and I immediately believed it and I haven't looked at it since it just doesn't interest me at all. God set me free from it right away.
Speaker 1:Um yeah did you listen to Tyler's episode I?
Speaker 2:did? I actually started that night. I put my headphones in as I was working on the shower and my wife wasn't even there at the time and I just started listening, uh, right from episode one. And she got home and she, she immediately noticed something different. She's like, what's different? I'm like I don't even remember. I was like, well, maybe we don't have to move. And I immediately got stuck with the lie and believed the lie. Well, now that I'm okay, it's my job to save my family and lead them and my in-laws and it's my job to do that. And she saw that right away. It took me a couple of weeks to pull away from that and realize that was a lie. It was not my responsibility. My responsibility was just to mirror Christ.
Speaker 2:And needless to say, after that 20 year, 28, well, probably more than 20 years in the desert, I was. I was thirsty, I was hungry and I I went, started going through your podcast. It's funny, actually, jadra's episode annoyed me more than anything. Why? And I started going through your podcast? It's funny, actually, jadra's episode annoyed me more than anything why.
Speaker 1:She just sounded too happy, way too happy, and I wasn't there. That's what bothered Michaela. And then Michaela hated her too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm like. So I guess I didn't tell you what day that was. That was April 4th of 24. And I found out this year on April 4th that I don't want to step on my wife's story, but that was the same day she got freedom from drugs.
Speaker 2:Wow, god has a sense of humor and I was actually telling somebody else that at church this morning and I told him those days he's like that's three days. I'm like that didn't get by me, don't go, don't worry, that didn't get by me. Three days separate, okay, yeah, that, no, that makes sense. There's something about three and I don't know. God definitely celebrates anniversaries, because this year on April 4th, he was just pouring it on just all day, all week, all week, and that went from a week of because it's been 11 years now, a week of me not being okay mentally for like a month. Well, or at least a week to. I celebrate now. I celebrate life and it's beautiful.
Speaker 1:So you started listening to this thing. You're going through what was the truth about God that was hitting you as you were like, were you coming to the Bible studies or were you more listening to the podcast for a while and then going to the Bible studies?
Speaker 2:I was only listening to the podcast at first.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what was grabbing you about the stories?
Speaker 2:Well, the transformation really Just that, they were one way and then they weren't, and I really didn't even understand it at first. And I finally went and started watching Wave One and then so that helped a bit Started watching the Chosen. That helped again. Like I said, I was hungry. I was really hungry. My dad ended up sending me an episode of the unfolding, which is another podcast, and I I at the time I was driving a dump truck back and forth, sometimes four or five times a day, so I'd be eight or 10 hours of drive time.
Speaker 1:And I was like well might as well listen to something.
Speaker 2:And so I did, and that's how I got through them all in like a month and a half and then I caught up on the other one and through them all in like a month and a half and then I caught up on the other one and then I finally I tried Jadris, and I listened to like a couple minutes of it and I'm like, oh, it's too slow. And then I came back about six months later and I listened to it. I was like this is beautiful, this is amazing. Like why didn't I like this before? I just hadn't calmed down yet. I didn't really let that peace saturate me. But the first thing that I just flat out refused to believe I had immediately was shame and condemnation. If I felt it, I said no, that's not true, it's not there, I don't have it anymore. And I didn't feel it Like it would just go away. Um, because I knew I chose to believe that God was not condemning me, that God would not shame me, and that was. It was beautiful that I was able to do that. Don't get me wrong. I things still creep in, you know, I still have old habits, but I refuse to feel that shame because I know it's not from God, and I definitely want to speak something about, about belief, because that's really what changed it for me is I chose to believe, and that there's a story back in, uh, I think it was 2015 or so, I don't remember if it was before or after I got married, but I was living there and, uh, my son was a toddler, and you know how toddlers are with food If it's different, they don't like it. And so I'm thinking, well, you know, we tried, we tried different things, and we finally got to the point where, just you know, leave them in a side chair and walk away. If he finishes it, great. If not, we'll put it in the fridge, you can finish it later. But just you know, don't, don't press, don't you know? We found that that was the best way.
Speaker 2:So we got done with dinner one night and I remembered there was huckleberry ice cream in the freezer and I didn't. You know, okay, maybe it was a little rude to walk around eating huckleberry ice cream, as he's not done with his dinner and can't have any yet, but I thought, well, maybe it'll be a good motivator for him. And so I go get a bowl and I walk out of the kitchen and he immediately perks up what's that? And I said horse poop. He's like yuck. I said horse poop, he's like yuck. I'm like you want some. He's like uh, uh, okay. And so I walk over and I give him a spoonful and he starts making the nastiest. Oh disgusting, oh yuck, yuck, yuck. I said, hey, you want some huckleberry ice cream?
Speaker 2:He's like yeah, yeah, yeah. So I gave him another spoonful and then I blew his mind and said same stuff and then 10 years later. I learned that lesson Believe literally changes your experience.
Speaker 1:It's crazy that if you give somebody food and you don't mention anything about it, they'll be like oh, you know whatever. But if you tell it, like this is the food that they fed the astronauts, they taste and they're like, oh, this is, this is actually good, because they believe that it's like special and that belief changes the flavor in their mouth.
Speaker 2:It literally does change your experience, and that's one thing that God has been teaching me is that's how you experience God as you believe him. If you believe a lie, it's probably not going to be a great experience when you believe the truth it's everything you were built for this really is. The key is belief, and God gave us that authority, that free will to choose what we believe.
Speaker 1:So I remember, man, it feels like you've been coming to our Bible studies for years. So when you said it was 2024, I was like what for years? So when you said it was 2024, I was like what? Because I remember seeing you there and I didn't put two and two together and then I saw your last name and I'm like, oh, hold up, that's Floyd's son. And then you didn't have your camera on for a while and then you started putting your camera on and I was was like, okay, because I maybe I was nervous, I don't know. I was like, oh, I hope we represent the gospel, okay, to this new person who is giving it a chance. I don't want to ruin it. Um, was it nerve-wracking at all? Or were you like, let me see what these guys are saying? Or you had heard the podcast enough that you were like Matt, I'm interested in just kind of knowing more.
Speaker 2:Oh, I was in it. I was, I was deep. Uh, I was basically immersing myself in gospel between, uh, listening to that, you know, to your podcast, and blowing through that. In no time at all I started listening to the Move and Dusty Boys and everything. I just immersed myself. Then I started downloading the talks that my dad gives at the church that he leads. Like I said, I just completely immersed myself in it. I mean, it changes your world. I needed that renewing of the mind.
Speaker 1:So, as you've been immersing yourself with all this stuff, what has become your favorite thing about Jesus?
Speaker 2:It's an excellent question. Well, probably the opposite of what I believed growing up, that there is no shame, there is no judgment. Well, there's no condemnation and technically, there's really no judgment. I mean, as Jesus said, this is judgment. The light has come, and men who are evil hide from it. But those who aren't afraid of the light are okay, you know. But those who aren't afraid of the light are okay, you know, paraphrasing obviously, with being in the light, they're not scared of it. So it's judgment is ours. Essentially, we choose whether or not we come into judgment.
Speaker 2:Eventually everyone will come to that.
Speaker 1:Well, jesus says in John, chapter 5, anybody who believes in me will not come into judgment, because they've already gone from death to life. Right.
Speaker 2:They've already come into the light, they've chosen judgment and they've been judged righteous because they've come into the light.
Speaker 1:So your favorite thing about Jesus is like he's not trying to get you in trouble.
Speaker 2:Yeah, pretty much. I mean, that's pretty much all my entire day is just like a running conversation with Jesus, the Holy Spirit, god, you know they speak to me through music, they speak to me through podcasts. It's just through sermons I might listen to Whatever. It's just a running conversation all day and it's beautiful.
Speaker 1:When did your dad catch on that you were catching on? Was it after that first three hour conversation?
Speaker 2:Oh, he knew, I think he said let's you know. He said can I pray with you? I'm like yeah, and at the end we're both crying and he's like God got you. I'm like oh yeah, oh yeah, he did I. Just I knew you. I'm like oh yeah, oh yeah, he did I. Just I knew immediately it was, it was instant. I felt it. I didn't understand everything, but I felt it. I had the Holy spirit. I let him take control.
Speaker 1:Man, I think this is the coolest thing ever Because, like when I hear you're, you're there and uh, you like how rational and like that god is actually rational, that intelligence and wisdom actually originate with him. And you're at some sermon and everyone's like wah, wah. I don't like that and that immediately rubs you the wrong way, because it seems like God isn't, he's not real, like he doesn't like wisdom, he just he wants us to be robots and you push back and for years, god just seems like lame because it it's. It's fake news. It's like he doesn't want us to think, he just wants us to fall in line or we're going to get judged and then to come around to where you are now, where you're like. It seems to me, like you're like this, the whole thing makes perfect sense because he loves us.
Speaker 2:yeah I, I, I refuse to follow a god who didn't want me to use the intelligence he gave me. I wouldn't do it. Yeah, I mean, why? Why would? Why would a god create you with intelligence and then tell you not to use it? Just be a blind robot.
Speaker 1:I'm not interested in that and so there's no bad news in this. Good news, like the good news, is just good, good, good, and you can either. And but that's the problem is, man, people try to inject their bad stuff into it so much that it it waters it down, and then people don't hear and their lives aren't transformed. And then we try to say it and people are like, no, that's too good.
Speaker 2:I don't know as as mercy me song says, it's a. It's not good news, it's the best news ever. Yeah. That is a. It's one of my favorite songs.
Speaker 1:Well, man, seeing you and hearing this story, man, if you could, uh, yeah, let's jump in the DeLorean, let's jump in there. And uh, where are we going to go? Right back to April, maybe. Maybe not April, maybe July of 2013. And you're, and you're feeling all this guilt and shame and you're living in this thing. If you got to run into that guy and put your arm around him and sit down with him, even have a cold one with him, or let him have a cold one, and you just sit there with him, what would you say to him?
Speaker 2:I'd probably tell him that God isn't who he thinks he is. God's so much better, and one day you'll meet him, the real God, the one that loves you beyond anything at the end of this whole thing it just kind of goes back to God is love right?
Speaker 1:and how do we know that?
Speaker 1:because when we were against him, that's when he died for us yeah man Jonathan, thank you so much for sharing your story, because when we were against him, that's when he died for us. Yeah, man Jonathan, thank you so much for sharing your story. I'm super glad it was in April. Let's redeem April. You know what you believe about. April 7 changes what April seven is. If April seven is just like a, you know, if we're driving by and it's a billboard for all the pain and all the hurt, well then you have to feel that. But if it's look what God has redeemed me from, look how God loves me, then then it's like what you said, that then April doesn't have to be that thing every single year. It can be an anniversary of a revelation of god's love and that it is praise the lord man, thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 1:Uh, thank you for listening to the podcast, and now your story is going to be in here and it's going to bless so many people, so thank you so much all it's got to do is bless one person and I'll be happy I'm sure it will man it's blessed to do is bless one person and I'll be happy. I'm sure it will. Man, it's blessed me already, all right.