Death to Life podcast
A podcast that tells the stories of people that used to be one way, and now are completely different, and the thing that happened in between was Jesus.
Death to Life podcast
#224 Micah Moddrell: When God Transforms from Information to Relationship
Micah Modrell shares his powerful journey from rigid religious legalism to discovering the transformative grace of the gospel that completely changed his understanding of God and his approach to ministry.
• Born and raised in an Adventist home with legalistic tendencies
• Parents divorced when he was eight, creating a split between "church house" and "fun house"
• Developed what he calls "an aggressive conscience" that led to cycles of guilt
• Married his high school girlfriend at 19, continuing to attend church but inconsistently
• Became extremely legalistic after having children, believing his salvation depended on behavior
• Struggled with addiction issues that worsened under legalism rather than improved
• Discovered Jonathan Leonardo's teaching that introduced him to a new understanding of God's grace
• Experienced a powerful shift from seeing God as "information" to seeing God as relationship
• Found new freedom to minister to others without needing to prove he was right
• Now lives with peace instead of constant striving, focusing on encouraging others
If you've been blessed by these stories of transformation, please support this ministry by visiting loverealityorg/give so we can continue producing these episodes and spreading the message of freedom in Christ.
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The world doesn't think that the gospel can change your life, but we know that it can and that's why we want you to hear these stories, stories of transformation, stories of freedom, people getting free from sin and healed from sin because of Jesus.
Speaker 2:This is Death to Life after that, uh, we, yeah, I think I I got, I got really legalistic. And, um, diana, uh wasn't ready to to be legalistic and even though, like I, I never hey, we need to do these things. Now, like I'm saying we need to do these things, it was more like, hey, this is what I'm choosing to do, this is how I'm choosing to. Like, I'm not saying don't watch these shows. I'm just saying that if you want to watch these shows, I'm going to go into the other room, like that kind of stuff. But it, you know, it wasn't received that way, and so I think it definitely caused conflict.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the Death of Life podcast. My name is Richard Young and today's episode is with Micah Modrell. He has been trying to get me to come to Oklahoma and play basketball with him. But before I could go to Oklahoma and play basketball with him, we had to get this podcast episode.
Speaker 1:And I love Micah's heart. I love he's just so real and he's been a blessing to me for a long time and I love his story, I love his family and I think you'll be blessed to hear his testimony. It's kind of kind of went to one ditch and Jesus brought him out. So this is Micah Modrell. Love. You guys Appreciate, you guys Buckle up and strap in. This is a good one. Yeah, man, we've been I say this on a lot of episodes, but this is definitely one. We've been circling for a few years I don't know if it's been a couple years and you're kind of like uh, the godfather of oklahoma, you're like uh that's, that's too much the one who's made it happen, like, uh, your your background, kind of how this message got to a few more people, but I haven't heard your whole story.
Speaker 1:I think I heard a little of it. But we got Micah the baller, mo Drell, who tried to get me to bring my basketball shoes to Oklahoma Next time, next time I actually have actually retired from basketball. But, micah man, where are we going to start? Where are we going to go with your story, man?
Speaker 2:I don't know when do you want to start. I don't know how to.
Speaker 1:Where did you grow up? In Oklahoma, man.
Speaker 2:Grew up in Oklahoma, born and raised.
Speaker 1:And so you grew up in a Christian home.
Speaker 2:Grew up in a Christian home, grew up in a Christian home, grew up in an Adventist home. So my dad was like from Adventist Mecca, like he was born in Loma Linda and went to church there and everything like that, and then he left the church for like 28 years or something wild and moved to Oklahoma in the eighties and then, like within the last, like like mid eighties, like started getting back into going to church. Uh, my mom, mid eighties, was pretty much raised out of church but like was invited to, like you know, a prophecy seminar very, very classic story uh and kind of became an Adventist. And so we have him like re coming back into the church and her just coming into the church, and then they met and uh, and then I got together, got married, had me and so what?
Speaker 1:what kind of? There's a lot of different kinds of Adventism. What kind of Adventism did you grow up in?
Speaker 2:uh, um, I don't know because Cause I think that, like I think my, my dad had a lot of like conservative tendencies and so, like to describe that a little bit more, like he's he I have I have two sisters that are, I have three sisters that are older than me, but I have two that are much older than me from his first marriage and even though he wasn't in the church, he still made sure they went to church and had to, like be vegetarian and like all those those cultural Adventist things that people, things have, and so there was like definitely like a legalistic vibe from that perspective.
Speaker 2:Um, but like you know, I was able to. I was allowed to watch TV, I was allowed to play Pokemon, I was allowed to do like things, like I was allowed to do a lot of stuff. So it wasn't like heavily restrictive at home, but like a lot of his ideas and a lot of things he would gravitate to would be fairly conservative I don't know how else to describe it. And then my parents got divorced when I was eight and then my mom stopped going to church and so then, like that immediately made like my mom's house the fun house and my dad's house that not as fun house.
Speaker 1:But that's not funny that your parents got divorced at eight. But the idea that the people who love God is the not fun house, or the people who are going to church is the not fun house.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I don't. I just and again, I don't want to like portray it as like it was really it was really bad, cause it wasn't like we would go. We'd go to the movies like every Saturday night after sundown and we would write it, cause I would go basically go to his house on the weekend and then during the week I was at my mom's and so really there was. Just I went from having like pretty much being able to do almost anything I wanted within reason and then like there's a little bit more restrictions, like don't turn on the TV on Sabbath or something like that, or make sure it's just nature shows or whatever.
Speaker 2:So was God a restrictive God in growing up then, in that sense of God in growing up then in that sense, so like I, I I've thought about this question a lot just listening to the podcast, because this happens, and it wasn't until a couple years ago I realized I had, I had a memory of like who I, who as a kid I thought God was, and so, like, in fifth or sixth grade my mom dated a of people.
Speaker 2:We lived with one of her boyfriends for a little bit. Um, they broke up, we got an apartment and then she's like hey, we're moving back in with this guy and like, as a and I'm like fifth, sixth grade and that like, he wasn't, he wasn't abusive, he was just kind of a jerk sometimes and it like for that, that was enough for me to like I'll be good if we don't have to go back to this place and so like. And so I didn't. As you know, as an adult, looking back on that, I realized like I had my, my relationship with God I thought was predicated on my behavior, or God's ability to be do good things for me, or God's good to love me, or God's ability to want to fix the situation I'm in. Was was predicated on? Am I doing the things I know I'm supposed to be doing?
Speaker 1:How was that going in your mind, do you think?
Speaker 2:I was, it was going. It was going pretty bad. Like I was raised in church school, um, raised in church um pretty early on, like seventh, eighth, ninth grade, I realized that, like how easy it can be to like switch, like unconsciously switch how the way you interact and the way you talk, depending on what setting you're in. Like if I went to church, I didn't have to actively think about not swearing. You just don't. If I went to school, you didn't have to actively think about not swearing or or telling jokes or whatever, until you're just by yourself with your friends. And so I think, even, even even as early as like fourth grade, and now my son just graduated fourth grade.
Speaker 2:So I was like not graduated but just got out of fourth grade. So I was like a parent, like I'm thinking, but like it's amazing how early on into life you can get into the habit of living like a dual life or like you're you're this way with one people, you're this way with another set of people, and like what, what does it take? Like what happens when those worlds collide? I don't know if that answers your question.
Speaker 1:No, that answers my question. So you were hoping that one day God could be pleased with you, or you're just like I just need to sharpen this thing up and get this thing better? Is that kind of like your experience?
Speaker 2:from that age. I mean so I definitely grew up in church knowing all the stories. I mean so I definitely I grew up like I grew up in church knowing all, knowing all the stories. I have a really I would what I've described a really aggressive conscience, so like if I feel like I've done something bad, like it really bothers me and it really wrecks, like, really messes with me, and so like as a kid, like when I would get in trouble or when I would get in a situation like and I knew I did the wrong thing Like I would feel that really hard. Um and so I think again, I think I I wasn't a wild kid I don't think by any, by any means, and I would always make good decisions and all that kind of stuff but like there was definitely just like that secondary, like want to do these things that I think are more fun, which you know yeah.
Speaker 2:So what happened, man going into high school, high school was fun. High school was good, really. I mean I went to church school the whole time. I think I had 10 kids in my freshman class.
Speaker 1:Uh, graduated with two kids in my senior class, I get to tell people that I was second in my class, which is always good.
Speaker 2:Um, it was one other person. Yeah, when I, when we graduated, um, so that was that was cool, um, pretty pretty fun high school experience. Uh, when I was in this is maybe this is sad, but when I was in 10th grade my dad passed away and so, and so then it was just, you know, obviously at that point I just stayed at my mom's house, but I had, I had a really good stepdad that stepped in and um really did a good job like filling that role. Um, yeah, I don't, I don't know, high school was, high school was wild.
Speaker 2:Definitely got into uh, uh, drugs and alcohol a little, uh, not, I don't know, too early. I think, like summer, between eighth and ninth grade, um is when stuff got a little bit crazy. Um, but no, I guess it was yeah, no, yes, final answer. No, yes, Final answer. But like, it was definitely more of just like a once at once in a time, once once in a while thing than it was like a permanent thing. I never had like the connections to get the things, so I only had to, like I could only get access to those things if I was with somebody that had access to those things.
Speaker 2:So, with your aggressive conscience, did that mess with you, or were at that point where you're like, nah, this makes me feel good um, I think I think like we have what I think I've heard other people call it, like those like um summer camp, like spiritual moments, what's? There's like a phrase for it. I can't remember what it's called Basically like like, generally speaking, it was fine.
Speaker 1:Like a spiritual high or something like that. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But when I would get into like a spiritual high or I'd get into like this moment of conviction, it would just hit me really, really hard and it kind of like the you know the, the thing I described earlier, where it was just like purge, shut it down, promise not to do it again, this, that and the other, and then and then from there, like you know, be good for a little bit, and then, uh, kind of just fall back into it. I guess.
Speaker 1:So what age were you baptized? So what age were you?
Speaker 2:baptized. I was baptized at camp meeting at like 11 or 12 ish. Yeah, baptized at 11 or 12 ish. Um, and then like I remember, even like cause I went to camp meeting like every year for like five or six years straight. Because I went to camp meeting like every year for like five or six years straight, and I remember, even like subsequent camp meetings, like having that spiritual high, like really being convicted by the messages and then like making a call for baptism and just being like, well, I was already baptized and so that would be kind of the end of it. But yeah, baptized 11 or 12.
Speaker 1:So by the time you're a senior, are you still kind of participating with the drugs and alcohol? Had it slowed down? Had it picked up? What was the plan?
Speaker 2:So we, meaning a group of us, got in trouble in ninth grade and so it pretty much shut down for me for like 10 and most of 11th grade, and then it sparked back up me for like 10 and most of 11th grade, and then it sparked back up um, and then when I graduated high school, um, my wife and I so I graduated high school in may and got married in june my wife and I decided that we hold up, hold up, you got.
Speaker 1:You graduated from high school and got married in June.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Was your wife the other person in your senior class?
Speaker 2:No, no, she's three months older than me, but she's a grade ahead of me.
Speaker 1:So she was a freshman in college or right out of high school then.
Speaker 2:Yes, it was kind of. It was kind of I was actually so like last month we were at a high school graduation and I, during my high school school graduation since there's only two of us we both got to talk and we both just like cried the whole time it was. It was a crazy emotional moment. But, like um, during my portion of the speech, uh, I said I said like told everybody that diana and I were gonna get married, and like it wasn't until. Like told everybody that Diane and I were going to get married and like it wasn't until like last month that I was listening to other high schoolers talk and I was like man, if one of those kids said that they were getting married, I would feel like that was the most wild, absurd thing I've ever heard in my life. Um, so it was just interesting to like have that, that different perspective that different perspective now, were you, like, super grown up, or were?
Speaker 2:like in your mind or do you think like you actually did have some maturity. So we married, we um we started being boyfriend and girlfriend uh, end of my seventh grade, end of her eighth grade, and we were. We dated pretty much from then through high school, minus a short eight month period, Um, but and so for. For us it was just kind of like should we get married? Yeah, let's get married, that's fine. Like like, we're here, we're together, We've been together like four or five years now. Like that's just kind of like, let's just do that. Um, definitely, there was some, uh, some both coming from single parent homes. There was definitely some dysfunction in both of our houses and so it kind of just like I feel like that, like as an adult looking back on it, I feel like that kind of just like pushed us together more and like we're just like yeah, let's just do that. So like, yeah, graduated high school in May, moved out and got married in June, turned 19 in July and then started college in August.
Speaker 1:I don't know how old you are now, but I wouldn't be surprised if you've been married for 25 years. How long have you been married now?
Speaker 2:Next month, no end of this month, 17 years.
Speaker 1:Okay, I've been married for 17 years, but I got married when I was 24. So that's that's what's up. Man, how did it go getting married and doing all that?
Speaker 2:it was fun. So we I mean, it was cool we got married, we were both working at Panera at the time and then we continued working at Panera, went to school, so we were working full time, did you?
Speaker 1:get like some comps on that strawberry poppy seed salad.
Speaker 2:Yes, when you worked at Panera you got a 75% discount and it was still affordable. Even back then it was still affordable. You could eat lunch there for $1.50.
Speaker 1:You know what I'm going to confess something on the podcast. I've never said I've hated on panera for most of my adult life, but I actually really like it. It's tasty man, but it is pricey it is.
Speaker 2:It is if you like, when I, I have like a vivid memory of like the you pick two sign, which is like you get a soup and a half sandwich or salad and I remember being like 540, either 549 or 749, and like now, if you now they have like premium items versus not, or like if you pick the wrong two items, like you could have like a 20, you pick two.
Speaker 1:It's, it's absurd it's highway robbery, but you still. You still like the food there.
Speaker 2:You vouch for it so we we go, we'll, we'll do panera like three or four times a year and then we will supplement with McAllister's when we don't want to spend a billion dollars.
Speaker 1:You'll go to Panera three to four times a year.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm just saying like once every two or three months, so I feel like that breaks down to three or four times a year. And it's just for the broccoli cheddar soup. Yeah, that broccoli cheddar soup.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that broccoli cheddar soup man. I don't know what they do with it, but it's delicious comes, comes in frozen that's warm it up? I didn't, but you shouldn't have told me that. All right, so you're working up to nara.
Speaker 2:You're just married going to school full time. We we both wanted. We started off both being wanting to be police officers, and so we were like all of our classes were the same, and then when they would be doing roll call, there would be like Micah Modrell, diana Modrell, and then they'd be like, are you guys married? Like, yeah, okay, cool, we only had to buy one book per class. That was cool At the police academy.
Speaker 2:So I don't know if this is everywhere or just Oklahoma, but you have to be 21 to be a police officer, and so there's a, there's a school called OSU OKC, so it's like a community college that's sponsored by Oklahoma State University and they have a police science program, and so you basically do everything that you would do over two years, what you would do in police academy. But then, when you get to the end, you still have to do police academy. If you go to like a big, if you get to the end, you still have to do police academy. If you go to like a big, if you go to like a big like Oklahoma city police department, if you went to like a small town, maybe you don't have to as long as you're GLEET certified, but so we started doing that and after a couple of years of that realized that, hey, I'm going to have to do all this stuff anyway. So let me like pick something else to get a degree in, just in case. And then I picked math, and then I stuck with math.
Speaker 1:You're like. You're like, instead of going to protect and serve, I'm a crunch, these numbers, yeah.
Speaker 2:I knew I wanted to do something businessy, because I would say, oh, I'm doing math and I'd be, you want to be a teacher and I'm like, no, I don't want to be a teacher, and then then realize that you know, getting shot it's kind of scary, so I don't really. I think I'm just gonna get a regular job instead but, you got a math degree.
Speaker 1:What is your? What did your wife get a degree in?
Speaker 2:she, um, she jumped a couple majors a times. I think she switched to psychology and then she switched to art or in an engineering, but she landed with a bachelor's in management information systems, so MIS. So it's like half math or half computers, half business, and so it's pretty solid.
Speaker 1:So what happened next? What was the? What was the? You guys still going to church, still loving the Lord, now that you're on your own? How, how did that work?
Speaker 2:Um, so we, we, I mean we still went to church. I feel like we would go to church just for church. We'd skip, like all the early morning stuff Most of the time when we first got married, even like before we got married. But when we first got married, probably the first year or so we got married we went to a Spanish church and so I don't speak Spanish and so why did you pick us?
Speaker 1:Because your wife speaks Spanish.
Speaker 2:My wife speaks Spanish and we had started going there before we got married and then the pastor at that church did marry us, and which was cool, and so we went to Spanish church for like a year or so. And then, when we were going to school, one of the professors one of the professors at the school he was the history professor was a lay pastor for an Adventist church, and so after we like took the classes we were going to take for him, we were like, oh, let's just go to his church, church because he's a good teacher. So like maybe, like probably a good preacher. And so we, we, we transferred to, uh, an English speaking church. Um, probably like year two ish of marriage.
Speaker 1:Did you, did you get pretty good at understanding Spanish going to that Spanish church?
Speaker 2:So when we were going to the Spanish church, I was taking Spanish in college and then at at panera, I was working on the line with ladies that were spanish speakers and so like in that moment, like I feel like I definitely like learned a whole lot and could like speak whatever the panera version of restaurant spanish is a little different than just regular spanish yeah, and so I definitely understand.
Speaker 2:I understand a lot, but definitely not good at speaking it. As far as like remembering what I, what I'm like remembering vocabulary and that sort of stuff, or conjugating is also hard. But like we went to the. We went to the Spanish church, like last week, and, like Diana, anytime we go to a Spanish church, diana will like start to try to translate for me. Like no, it's okay, don't worry about it. First off, it looks I don't want her talking to my ear because that's it's like it's weird. But then the second part is like I kind of like to just like try to see between the verses and the words.
Speaker 1:I know like how much of it I can get on my own that's cool which is not a lot you're like I'm trying to figure out how much I know of this and it's very, not very little. All right, yeah. So, um, you're going to an english-speaking church. You're still involved in the church. Uh, drugs and alcohol still a thing in your life, or did marriage kind of like? Not about that?
Speaker 2:but drugs, noional alcohol, but not a lot, not a lot, but definitely like that's probably when pornography probably became more of a thing. But yeah, no drugs, occasional alcohol. But even then, like I feel like we would go through phases where we maybe a couple weekends here and and then we'd be like, okay, we don't need to be doing this, so we're done.
Speaker 1:and then we were done until we weren't done and then pornography kind of just snuck in, just like it sneaks in all the time, yeah, yeah. So then, uh, yeah, keep going. What happened?
Speaker 2:or to Panera. Got to I don't know how much story to tell. I'm just going to talk.
Speaker 2:You just interrupt me, I'll tell you when I don't want to hear it anymore Worked at Panera for a while. One of the customers that worked there was the CEO of an oil and gas company and so interacted with him a lot. And then, after I switched to math, I told him once I was like hey, I heard that with a math degree you can work at oil and gas company. Is that true? He said, yeah, when you graduate, let me know, we'll give him your resume, we'll get you an interview. And I said, okay, cool. But then, like two weeks later, he was like hey, you want a job. And okay, cool. But then, like two weeks later he was like hey, uh, you want a job. And I was like I got like 18 months before I'm out of school. He's like, ah, it's fine, that's here, it gives you my card. And so then I wrote a resume and, uh, I'm sure it was terrible Now now that I'm thinking back to it, cause I remember spending like six hours and I submitted it. Uh, went in for interview, got a job there, and so then I worked at that place during the week, two or three days a week, then would go to class, and then we'd still I'd still work at Panera on Sundays and holidays, if my, if the other place was closed, and then Diana worked at Panera and then did that, uh, from like mid 2011,.
Speaker 2:Graduated college, 2013, uh, and then went full-time at that company, um, and then Diana quit Panera and then she, we, she, she quit Panera. She's going to focus up and finish up in school, cause she had changed majors a couple of times, so she was a little bit behind where I was, um, and then, like I think, 13. So then, like within six months, um, six to eight months, like she got pregnant with Isaac, which is our first, which is our son first kid, um, and then so she took a break from school and then had a kid and then she went back, finished school, um, and yeah, it was kind of it was cool, it's fun.
Speaker 1:Life was going pretty, pretty solid, did you feel? Uh, god was, you were good with god, with like what? Who was god at this point in your life?
Speaker 2:god was. Who was god at this point? Am I like, again, we were going to, we were going to church, but like we would definitely like, uh, like we were very susceptible to like waking up in the morning at like nine, 30 or 10 o'clock and be like I don't think we're going to go to church today. I was like, yeah, that's fine, we don't have to go to church today, and so that we would, you know, routinely probably miss two or three weeks and then go for two or three weeks and then miss a week and then go for a week. And then it was so. It was like inconsistent, um, inconsistent attendance, uh, and that was the thing, though, like from, and so I guess this is the answer to the question.
Speaker 2:I think that, for me, like God was uh, uh, information, and so like wanted to go to church, wanted to learn, wanted to hear something new, wanted to you know, and then I um would definitely like go on my own little Bible study kicks and like try to like figure stuff out, um, and then like getting into like 2015, 2014, 2015. So Isaac's born, and then we're still again like again we're, we're not drinking till we are we're, we're still dealing with the porn thing from time to time and you know, just not really living a life focused on God, just kind of living a life focused on living and having fun. And then, like once I started to get to like one. I remember, like even like when he was first born, like I remember how I was read Bible stories. I would read him Bible stories, but then it got to the point where I was just like, hey, like I have, we're in charge or at least for me I'm in charge of like raising another human and like teaching this human what we should believe and how we should behave.
Speaker 2:And so another human and like teaching this human what, what we should believe and how we should behave. And so it def, like that's what sparked for me like I need to figure this out for myself, like I need to figure out, like you know, I was raised an adventist. Do I want to stay an adventist? I know I believe in god, um, and so like that, coupled with we got a new pastor at our church, that um sermons that he were preaching really had me thinking, and so it kind of got me on the path of kind of studying for myself. But again, for me God was information. Getting closer to God was being more right than the other people around me, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Oh, that makes sense. Being more right than the people around you. Was the being more right than the people around you also adding a benefit to the way you were living, or was it just? I'm glad we're right about this.
Speaker 2:I mean I would definitely be convicted about watching a certain show or a certain set of media or playing a certain kind of game and those kinds of things, and that definitely turned into me not doing those things anymore or doing a similar purge of getting rid of a whole bunch of stuff even from when I did when I was a kid. Like a similar purge of like getting rid of a whole bunch of stuff, like even from like when I did when I was a kid. Um, but it was it just very much was like hey, like I got really excited about trying to prove all the different ways why my church is right and why other churches were wrong.
Speaker 1:So keep going. What happened after that? Um?
Speaker 2:then after that, uh, we, yeah, so keep going. What happened after that? Um, then after that, uh, we, yeah, I think I, I got, I got really legalistic. And, um, diana, uh wasn't ready to to be legalistic and even though, like I, I never was like hey, we need to do these things. Now, like I'm saying we need to do these things, it was more like hey, this is what I'm choosing to do, this is how I'm choosing to. Like, I'm not saying don't watch these shows, I'm just saying that if you want to watch these shows, I'm going to go into the other room. Um, like that kind of stuff, uh, but it, you know, it wasn't received that way and so I think it definitely caused conflict. Why did you get super legalistic?
Speaker 2:Going back to when I got to the point where it was important for me to realize what I believe in, so that I could teach those things to my son, that manifested itself in or I found the resources I came across were very conservative and very legalistic resources and it was just like, oh, like, this is actually how you're supposed to live, wholly, this is actually what it means, like working through sanctification or whatever.
Speaker 2:Um, like, I need to manage and curate my habits and behaviors so that I can be saved and so that I can teach these things to my son because we just had one kid at the time so that he can also be saved. And then I need to anybody that's willing to listen to me around me. I need them to know that these things are important too, so that they can also be saved. Salvation was very much a roller coaster back then for me, meaning like hey, you're saved until you mess up, and then you're not. And then you got to figure it out and feel bad enough to say you're sorry, and then you're saved again until you're not.
Speaker 1:And yeah, I know what that's like. So were you saved.
Speaker 2:Depending on the day, depending on the moment.
Speaker 1:Had you pretty much gotten a handle on the pornography thing at this point.
Speaker 2:I feel like in a lot of ways it got worse.
Speaker 1:You know why? Why the legalism, I think, makes it worse.
Speaker 2:man, I think it does.
Speaker 1:It's not an answer.
Speaker 2:Mm-mm, no, and then you just it doesn't fix it, and then you feel worse about it.
Speaker 1:So then you medicate again. It's a vicious cycle.
Speaker 2:Yeah it's not good, no it's not good.
Speaker 1:Did your wife know about this stuff? Or were you just like I'm gonna figure this out on my own and she doesn't need to know about any of this?
Speaker 2:I I I don't think she knew. I would have to ask her. I don't think she knew I would have to ask her. I think she had suspicions but I don't think she knew. We've never been like you know, my technology was my technology, her technology was her technology. We never went through each other's stuff or anything like that. Like it was, we knew each other's passwords. It was fine. If she wanted to go through it, she could.
Speaker 2:I mean, I definitely was covering my tracks. I mean I think there was probably some close calls like where I didn't cover my tracks. Well, and she was on my phone but she didn't go, she wasn't. There was definitely like a moment where Isaac's, like two-ish, and I remember we went on a drive and then we just like went into this phase of just like confessing, like all of the stuff that we were doing behind each other's backs to each other. Like stuff that we were doing Like there was nothing crazy, but like stuff that we were doing that there was nothing crazy, but stuff that we were doing that were violating our consciences.
Speaker 2:I don't know if the Holy Spirit was working. I don't know if we were feeling extra guilty that day from the legalism I don't know what it was, but we went through this thing where we literally just told each other everything that was really good for our marriage Confession's a big deal, even just to each other. Not, I mean, obviously it's a big deal to god, like doing it to god and stuff, but like to each other it was pretty cool, um, and so somewhere in there, um, I'm gonna, if you have any questions, you want me to move on, sorry no, no, keep going.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah.
Speaker 2:So somewhere in there I got really, um, I came across some resources that again like hit media music uh really really hard, and so I uh like swore off music with drums or was very uncomfortable about music with drums, very uncomfortable about rap, um. And then somewhere in there, diane, I went to a camp meeting a whole lot when I was a kid. Um, but around this time where we're trying to get closer to God and we're trying to do the right thing and and you know all that stuff, um, we started going to camp meeting again. And uh, there into camp meeting again, and uh, there is a Adventist group called the Lesser Light Collective and they put together a CD on the book of Revelation at the time and then they later did a book, a CD on the book of Daniel, and so it's like songs about, like that was like working you through those books and it's pretty cool. Um, but I bought.
Speaker 2:So the Daniel album came out and I bought the album and so they had my email and then, like a couple months later, they emailed me and they were like hey, we're traveling around the country, we're going to be in the Oklahoma area around this time. Would you be interested in us coming and doing a concert. Would you be interested in us coming and doing a concert? And so like, even though, like, even though, like I was adverse to like, like music with drums and rap and all that kind of stuff, like it was Adventist, so like that kind of makes it okay, right, and Dinah there's a couple of songs on there Dinah really really liked and so, and so I was like, all right, let's, let's do it.
Speaker 2:And so I talked to my local church and we set up them to come out and do a concert. And so they came out and it was a husband and wife His name is Lee and they stayed with us, I think two nights. They did the concert, really connected with them. I think I asked them some questions about music in that moment. We didn't get into a big conversation about it, but we kind of just went back and forth for just a little bit and during the concert while he's up there rapping, and so we went to the church. We went to had a lot of platinum members.
Speaker 1:Platinum members.
Speaker 2:A lot of platinum members. They've been there for a while, their hair is platinum, um, and so like and so like, even like, but he, you know, he was doing these rap songs at church. But for like, for me, like I came to this realization. I was like this is literally just, this isn't bad, like I don't know how else to describe it, but it was just like, like, like the messaging and the songs is fine, um, and it was just. It was like kind of a moment of clarity for me, and so we stayed connected. And then he was like hey, man, uh, I'm on a podcast I'm doing, I did a, I recorded a podcast with this guy. It's here, I'd love for you to listen to it and give me some feedback, or something like that. I said, oh, hey, cool. So I checked it out and so I'm listening to this podcast. And then I was like man, this podcast is kind of, it's kind of cool. I kind of like this and like the thing that was.
Speaker 2:I remember the thing that really stood out to me is, on this podcast, like I think I listened to like seven, six or seven episodes and the guy was an ad, was an Adventist, was not a pastor at the time, but he was an Adventist, but he was interviewing non-Adventist and so like again, like for me, like being right, very important and a lot in a lot of ways like learning from somebody outside of my faith tradition, just like was not on the table, because the thought process is like, like there's the verse, that's like if they speak not according to this word, there's no light in them, right, and so we take that and go. Well, you're going to church on the wrong day, like, just there. Like, if we can't even get you going to church on the right day, why? Why could anything you say be correct, which is like super elitist and like a really terrible way to think about things, um, but when you're in it, you don't really realize how awful it is to think that way, um, and so for me it was just like there was part of it, like I think honestly part of it.
Speaker 2:Like I was upset that this admins guy was interviewing, uh, non-admins people, but at the same time, I was like this is really good information, like learning about, like, like there was one guy that did something on church planting. That one stands out to me. There was a couple other ones, and so I listened to that for like three, four, five or six episodes or whatever I said earlier, and then he turned on it. It was a new episode. I turned it on and oh, it was the sorry, it was the West Vibe podcast. I don't know if I said that. I don't think I said that?
Speaker 1:Oh, you didn't say that.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, it was the West Vibe Hold on.
Speaker 1:West was the rapper or West had interviewed the rapper.
Speaker 2:Brett, I don't know if West raps. We should ask him.
Speaker 1:I think we should, uh, but he was interviewing the rapper. The rapper's name was lee g. Lee g, okay, all right, all right, I was just. I just got really excited at the thought of of wes hip-hopping a mic on stage. I think, I think you could do it. He's got some swag yeah, um.
Speaker 2:So so he like, and usually it's like quick intro right into the interview. Quick intro right in the interview. This intro for this podcast was like, I don't know, it felt like forever, but right into the interview, quick intro, right in the interview. This intro for this podcast was like, I don't know, it felt like forever, but it was probably like five to seven minutes, but it was just like hey, I heard this guy preaching and there's some stuff in here that is unlike anything I've ever heard before. But before you listen to this, I just want you to promise that I'm not just throwing this out there, like. I've taken the things that he said and like, really like, tried to like think through them with scripture and look them up or whatever, and like, and it sounds pretty good, and so this would have been. This was him interviewing Jonathan.
Speaker 1:So Jonathan.
Speaker 2:Leonardo, jonathan, leonardo, and so that podcast still exists.
Speaker 2:I uh, my phone's in front. I can't look at it now, but I would expect I don't know if he took it down. I mean he's not making episodes, but I don't think he took it. I don't know, you'd have to ask him. We could look after. Yeah, we'll look after Um, but is it interview Jonathan?
Speaker 2:And so one thing that I would do a lot in this at this point in my life is I would listen to sermons constantly and like they were like and like my favorite not my favorite sermon, sermoners, preachers.
Speaker 2:They would be like one hour sermons or sometimes a 90 minute sermons, and so I would like listen to a lot of sermons and sometimes I'd follow along with my Bible, but most of the times I was driving or doing something and so it was just kind of just on, but I'd be really, I'd be really focused on it, and so I would get to the point where I could regurgitate, like all these things that these people were saying that I was hearing on these sermons, but like when it came to like me actually like backing it up with scripture, that that that part was was fairly shallow, it wasn't really a thing in my life, but like I would, so it wasn't really a thing in my life, but like I would. So I would like find a certain like I don't know if I have adhd or what it is, but I would like find a speaker that I would like and I would just listen to everything they had that I could find on youtube. Yeah, I would listen to, like you know, 12, 13, 15 things. There were some speakers that didn't have a lot of stuff and I would literally like run out of stuff, their stuff on youtube, and then I would have to wait for them to put up more stuff and so, like that was a very common practice of mine. So I listened to the Jonathan podcast and I was like, well, let me look this guy up.
Speaker 1:What was he saying? Was he saying some good stuff?
Speaker 2:He was saying some dude he was. I think about this a lot because he was he was saying a lot of good stuff. But like I've been around it for so long now, like it's hard for me to remember like what was, like the thing, but like I think for me I mean thinking back and just you know, following the trend of what we've talked about today, like for me, like our, like God loving us, having nothing to do with our behavior, I think that was a big deal for me at the time and then understanding, like that, that striving to be good or striving to do good Isn't actually how you do good. I don't know, I'm not I'm sure I'm not using his words that he used, but this is how you know I I think about it now or how I'm related to it now and just this this I feel like we like the word freedom is overused a lot, but or not, I feel like we use it a lot in this community and it's just like.
Speaker 2:So I feel like sometimes we take it for granted, but like actually like seeing or hearing freedom is just just wild, and so like sometimes we take it for granted, but like actually like seeing or hearing freedom is just just wild, and so like the podcast was good, so then I youtubed him and and came across like the first set of pvc live videos like this is before. This is before. There was a second set of videos like so this was like 2019, 2018, 2019, 2019.
Speaker 1:Yeah, probably before I even knew anything about it. Okay, I wanted to give you guys we're going to take a real quick break from the pot, but I wanted to give you guys something that I had just heard. Someone, based off of the algorithm, saw something that Justin Ku put up. They came to our Bible studies and within probably about six weeks, we're walking in newness of life, walking in freedom, believing what Jesus had accomplished for them. So, if you have time, if you hear these episodes, but you want more meat and potatoes, come to the Bible studies. There's one on Monday, tuesday, wednesday, thursday. Every other week. We have Internet Church on Friday. We have one on Sunday. So come and join us for the Bible Studies. They are awesome. And also, man, keep this thing with us going. Go to loverealityorg slash give and donate so we can keep on producing these episodes. Keep on producing internet church. It's been a huge blessing in so many people's lives. That's love realityorg slash give. Just wanted to tell you guys that, and let's get back into the episode.
Speaker 2:So find this guy, find Jonathan, watch the videos Like the first. I feel like the first time anybody hears the Prodigal Son sermon, it just like wrecks their world and the way they view things and it just like really introduces them to like God in a way they've never, or at least the only way that I never noticed before or knew him before, and it was just, it was really good. I don't even know how else to describe it. I just think of a story, though, or I just thought of like a contrast, and so, um, before Jonathan, before understanding the gospel the way I understand it now, um, the I'm not like the traditional, the traditional um method of Adventist evangelism. And again, I'm not saying this is like what they say you should do, but this is what it boils down to in a lot of places. Um, it's just like, just like, either if you're one-on-one studying or if you're doing a thing at your church and bringing people to it, like it's very focused on let me show you from the Bible all the places that were right and all the places wherever you go is wrong and so like. And then there's a hyper focus on like Bible prophecy and so like. For me it was just like how can I be right? And I also need to make sure that prophecy is important and if I didn't hear a sermon that talked about prophecy, that talked about revelation 13 or 14, uh, or didn't step on my toes for something I was doing wrong, it wasn't a good sermon. Like it became an exercise in I think this is the word spiritual masticism when, like, if I don't feel like I'm a dirty sinner at the end of your sermon for something that I did wrong, you didn't do a good job. It's not a good place to be, but so hyper-focused on prophecy and and and being in doctrines and being right about whatever the thing is. But I have this moment.
Speaker 2:So I have three sisters that are older than me they're all half sisters and I have one brother that's 14, 15 years younger than me half brother and you know when he got into high school age, um, you know, my stepdad passed away, uh, in 2018. And um, so then it was just him and my mom, I think his last three or four years of high school, maybe all of high school, actually, maybe. I think he was in eighth grade when his dad passed away, and so I, we went out, I took him somewhere. We went and did something and then on the way home, he was just like stressed out, he didn't want to go home and my mom had been arguing about whatever. Just like stressed out, he didn't want to go home. Him and my mom had been arguing about whatever, um, and he was just like I don't want to go home.
Speaker 2:This feels bad and like I remember like in that moment I was like I need to like tell him something, like I need to share Jesus with him, cause he didn't go to church. He wasn't focused on that very much at all. He was raised, like, like Bible said, every night with my stepdad, but it wasn't something that he was focused on at this point in his life. And so, like I was like I need to share something and so like in the back of my head while he's talking, like I'm praying, like God, give me something, give me something, give me something. And like the only thing that comes to my head is just the stuff that I've been studying lately, and it was like who's the antichrist, the antichrist and what is the mark of the beast, and how do I make sure I keep all the commandments so that I can be part of the remnant and I can go to heaven. And it was just like none of this is helpful, like that was like my thought process, like and this is again before hearing jonathan like this is, this is, this is not helpful at all. Uh, and so I remember sharing with him a bunch of empty platitudes, but nothing. So I should have told that story earlier. So fast forward here. Wave one Watched it two or three times, I think. Read in the Bible too, didn't just regurgitate information.
Speaker 2:Um, I have another family member I'm going to obfuscate just some details but I have another family member who, um, struggled with pornography and they got in trouble. Like they got caught. They got in trouble. Like they got caught, they got in trouble and it was a tense situation. And even in that moment, like, I just went in and I started sharing with this person, like, hey, like these things that you did doesn't define you. God still loves you and it's not up to you to like try, try, try, try, try. It's up to you to like connect to him, have a relationship with him and let him work through you and claim his victory, and all. I don't even remember what I said, but like, what I remember is this person's eyes and I could just see just for like half a second, like, instead of them getting condemned for making the mistake, they got a loving picture of God and they got encouraged in who they can be in God, and it just clicked. And so for me it was just like now I have something to give. It was before the contrasting story with my brother, like I didn't feel like I had anything to give in that situation.
Speaker 2:Fast forward two, three years later in a situation where somebody needed to be encouraged and I was able to encourage them. And so, like for me, like again, like my, my legalistic mindsets was like how do I make sure I'm saved and then how do I make sure other people understand that I'm right so they can also be saved? And now it's like now I just need to like if there's somebody to share with, great. If there's not, okay. I mean, god is always going to put somebody in your place to share with them.
Speaker 2:But like I had, like I would have moments like I'd go to the grocery store or Walmart and I would just be and this is back when I was legalistic and I would just like be overwhelmed with like there's probably two, 300 people in this Walmart. How, how, how am I supposed to reach all these people? And I had this, this concept of like I have to take them from lost all the way to saved and they have to be an Adventist and they have to be keeping all the commandments and they got to go to, they got to go to church and Sabbath and all all the things that go with. That. Like that was. Like my mindset is I have to take somebody from here all the way to here and like that's. That's not true either. There's very I think there's very few people that God's going to put in your life, that you'll take them a really big part of the journey. I think that a lot of times you're just going to. Most of the time you're going to sow seeds and then sometimes you'll get opportunities to reap.
Speaker 1:Hmm, no, that's beautiful. So, after going through wave one, you're like man. There's something that I have to share now. I had something to share somewhere in there.
Speaker 2:I I remember listening to, and then wave two came out. I would remember being really excited about the Tyler Morgan uh story, um, and and then there was. There was something there was some time in there, jonathan was mentioning a book called Bob Sorge or something like that, something about the Secret.
Speaker 1:Place.
Speaker 2:The Secret Place. The Secret Place. But in the video that I was watching he didn't say the name of the book. And so I went on the Wellesley Rite website and his phone number was there. And so I just called him and I was like, hey, you don't know me, but uh, I was watching this video and you're talking about this book. Uh, what book is it? And he was like wait, what? How did you get this number?
Speaker 2:I said it's on the website and I was like he was like it should not be on the website. And he was like where are you? And I was like I live in Oklahoma. And he was like I'm in Oklahoma right now. He was in Tulsa for a wedding I don't know whose wedding it was, but he was in Tulsa for a wedding. And I was just like I was awkward and nervous and I really just wanted to know what the name of this book was so I could go buy it on Amazon. And so I was like, yeah, I think about it sometimes, like I should have drove to Tulsa and just go to talk to him. I don't know if he was available, but I should have offered like to buy him dinner or something and just like figure it out, but I didn't.
Speaker 1:That would have been. I'm sure he would have been cool with it. But so that's funny that his phone number was on the website. That was the early days back then, early days. So Secrets of the Secret Place it's a great book. Have you ever? If you listen to it on audio I think it's actually Bob Sorge's voice and his voice is so weird on the Secrets of the Secret Place. Maybe it's not his voice, but it's a powerful book.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that book. I struggle to finish books but I think I got like, is this kind of built up to be like a weekly kind of like devotion kind of thing, Like you do? Like I feel like a chapter a week would be appropriate. I think I got like 10 or 12 chapters in, but it was good. It was good stuff.
Speaker 1:So this is wave two's come out, so this is probably the middle of like 2020 sometime uh, yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2:I don't remember who was before after covid yeah, it's probably right before.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so then what happened then? Um what?
Speaker 2:happened then, uh, I think I think I got really excited about it and I was like what happened then? Yeah, okay, I mean I was really excited about it. I think I shared it with Diana. I think she was like, oh okay, this is cool. And then I think, fast forwarding into COVID. When did you guys start the Death to Life Bible study?
Speaker 1:Probably started that in 2020, probably 2021.
Speaker 2:Okay. So I started going to that. We started going to that, diana and I and just kind of you know we'd go to that, and started going to that, diana and I and just kind of you know we'd go to that and share it. And then we like august 2021, we both got like super sick with covid. It was really bad. Um, I think we got on the study while we were sick with covid, I don't know, but it was a long time ago. Um, yeah, I don't, I don't know, I don't know what else to. I don't know what else to share. I think that, like I think that wave two, you know, expanded it like the emphasis on testimonies, on hearing other people's story, like I think that's kind of where this podcast kind of got its start or its idea or the seeds of it, um, and how important that is.
Speaker 2:I haven't listened to all the episodes of the podcast. I'm sorry to say that, but I aspire to. Diana listens to a lot of them. She listens to them on two speed a lot of the time, which I don't feel like like I don't feel like this, like it just seems too fast to digest everything that's going on. But but no, I think I think from then until now, I think I've just been like I live with a lot of peace, a lot of peace, and I think that when I come into contact with people, that my first thought is I just need to encourage them. My second thought is they don't have to think I'm right. It's not my job to make them think I'm right. I just get to share with them, I get to talk about it, and then, yeah, I don't know, it's just been tons of fun.
Speaker 1:I have this idea that nobody who's legalistic knows that they're legalistic. When did you realize that you had been really legalistic? And then, yeah, answer that first, and then I'll follow I, I, I think that I don't know.
Speaker 2:I think it, I think it, I think it was really gradual, like I think that I think a lot of stuff that I was trying to do fell off quick as far as, like, being a 12 degree vegan and 12 degree, 12 degree vegan.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just just water and air. Um, like, but and a lot of just like. I don't know a lot of like stuff. Like at one point I thought competition was bad at one point, like there's this book I think I don't know if you and I talked about it or not, but there's this book called the creeping compromise. I don't know if you've read it before, but like, yeah, don't read it, um, but like there is there, like there's some stuff in there. I was like the first book, there's the first book that I read. It was okay. I started reading keeping compromised, and then there was this. There was this chapter about like why mixed swimming is bad, like why men and women shouldn't swim together what year is this book written?
Speaker 2:I don't know, I'm not. You're on my phone's in front of me. I can't look it up right now 80s or 90s, but I remember, like, like when I was in legalism, like I was like all right, this sounds like it's gonna be tough, but we're gonna have to figure this out, and then like, looking, looking back at it now, it was just like that's ridiculous, like that's not. That's not ridiculous, that's not a reason, that's not reasonable.
Speaker 1:It's okay to call it ridiculous. It was a little ridiculous.
Speaker 2:But like I think, like again, I don't know if I had a moment of epiphany. I think it was just like I think things would just slowly kind of slough off and then, like, looking back at it, I'm like, oh man, yeah, this was, this was rough.
Speaker 1:So yeah, that was that's my follow-up. Was it hard to not be legalistic after hearing the gospel and understanding what had what Jesus had accomplished in freeing you from sin?
Speaker 2:Oh, can you ask that again?
Speaker 1:Like did you try to not be legalistic after that, or was that just a natural response to receiving the gospel?
Speaker 2:I don't think it's hard for me to not be legalistic. I think it comes back to a theme that we talked about earlier, where I just have these moments where my conscience will like catch me and so like, if I, if I hear, like, if I'm interacting with somebody who, who still has legalistic tendencies, but like they speak about something in like a passionate and like in a put together way, not a ridiculous way, but in like a passionate put together way, like I feel like sometimes, like either some imposter syndrome kicks in or some lie kicks in, where I'm just like maybe I should be doing more, maybe maybe I should like, and then I, then I have to be like, no, like, no, like. This is not, it's not, it's not always realistic. Um, example, in height, peak legalism. Um, I was an elder at my church, so I, I either preached or taught Sabbath school once a month.
Speaker 2:Um, I, we had a small group which was really good. Even in the midst of our legalism, a small group is really good. But we had a small group that met weekly and then at work I was leading out in slash, facilitating two Bible studies a week. So three Bible studies a week, preaching and teaching once a month and I didn't feel like I was doing enough. I didn't feel like I was doing enough. I didn't feel like I was like I need to do more, and then I I didn't like, I didn't realize, like the balance that you need to have with when you have a family, and so, like I would drag them.
Speaker 2:Like we went to we went to Virginia once to go because one of the speakers that I really like listening to like was there, and so we drove to, uh, so we could go listen to the speaker, um, and just like we didn't miss church, like we always had to go, and like I wasn't being very good at like being diligent and like making sure diana had everything she needed. She was stuck with isaac a lot of the time. Um, I guess chloe came around in 2019, so she would be kind of like stuck with them. Um, while I had to be up front doing something. When I was not up front, I feel like I was more helpful, but not always being an attentive husband, and so I think that I just didn't understand my responsibility well at the time. I don't know, I forgot the question.
Speaker 1:So let's go back back to uh, yeah, you're, uh, you're cutting out all the drum beats. If you get to minister to this guy, how would you minister to this guy? Which guy? The?
Speaker 2:guy who did the drums.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you, micah, micah circa 2017, something like that.
Speaker 2:So I know exactly how I would do it, because someone did it to me. I have a friend his name is Kevin and he's a pastor, and he would just listen to all my ridiculousness and like I don't. Like he would just listen to all my ridiculousness, that's all I can say. And like he would give me opportunities to preach at his church, even though I was being ridiculous, like I don't, I don't think I was ever like super, super out there, but like and and and like I don't know if he was just providing like cognitive dissonance, like hey, you know, this is your idea, but how does that agree with this other idea that you had? How does this, you know, like systematic, but how does that agree with this other idea that you had? How does this, you know, like systematic, almost like, almost like relational, systematic theology, like hey, this, this and this, how do these things work together? If this is true, why is this? If this is true, and he would just like you know, he would just hang out with me, he would just talk to me, he would just spend time, he's just encouraging me.
Speaker 2:Um, it was, I don't know that's what I would do. I don, I don't know that's what I would do. I don't.
Speaker 2:I don't think they're like when somebody, when somebody feels very strongly about something, there are very few. There are very few one-liners or one conversationers that you can have with that person to pull them out of whatever, to convince them opposite of what they feel strongly about. And so I think that's where, like that's something I actually think about a lot lately as just like what is the right amount of, and that's where I don't even know. That's where I think, going back to just encouraging people, introducing them to Jesus, let Jesus figure out what they need to figure out. You don't need to like figure out what they need to figure out, um, but I think that's. I think that when someone's in, that I think, maintain the relationship, as long as it's a healthy relationship, uh, and just be there to talk to them, and as long as, as long as they're willing to listen, as long as they're, you know, showing progress and listening to the things that you're sharing. I think that's what you have to do. I think it just takes time.
Speaker 1:Man, I love your heart, bro. I love, I think, ever since you've been coming on the Death to Life Bible study. I've just seen a real heart for the gospel, and so it's been. You know this is going to be episode like 224 or something like that. It's been a long time coming, but I've seen your good works and I'm glorifying our Father in heaven, man, so thank you for coming on and sharing your story. It's a blessing.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.