Death to Life podcast
A podcast that tells the stories of people that used to be one way, and now are completely different, and the thing that happened in between was Jesus.
Death to Life podcast
#225 Wes Via 2: The Dark Night of the Soul
The gospel brings freedom from sin and transforms lives, yet preaching this message often comes with unexpected costs and opposition from established religious systems.
• Wes Vi discusses his complicated relationship with the church as an institution
• Understanding the "dark night of the soul" as a spiritual experience where God feels distant yet remains present
• Finding confidence in ministry through seeing the gospel transform lives
• How preaching changed when Wes began trusting the Spirit rather than perfectly planned manuscripts
• The controversy that arose when Wes partnered with Love Reality for evangelistic outreach
• Opposition growing through misrepresentations and accusations about Wes's theology
• Discovering that official church doctrinal statements actually aligned with his gospel teaching
• Making the painful decision to leave a church community he deeply loved
• Finding God's blessing and continued ministry opportunities in a new setting
• Learning that the gospel provides resilience through suffering without becoming bitter
• Baptizing sixteen people on his final Sabbath as evidence of gospel transformation
"You can stay and I'll bless you, or you can go and I'll bless you." When you walk in freedom, God remains faithful no matter where your journey leads.
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The world doesn't think that the gospel can change your life, but we know that it can and that's why we want you to hear these stories, stories of transformation, stories of freedom, people getting free from sin and healed from sin because of Jesus. This is Death to Life.
Speaker 2:We were so happy there. Our life was so full. We loved our ministry, we loved our church. We loved our life. We loved our kids' school. We loved our neighbors. It was everything that we had been longing for in our life. Together, lauren and I, we have kids now and it's what we wanted, you know, it's where we wanted to be the rest of the rest of our life. We would have been happy staying there until we retired, like we were just so complete and I was like I don't want to leave, we don't want to go, but it seems like there's the this is coming and I don't want to leave, we don't want to go, but it seems like this is coming and I don't know what to do. And God said to me you can stay and I'll bless you, or you can go and I'll bless you.
Speaker 1:Hey, welcome to the Death to Life podcast. My name is Richard Young and today's episode is Wes Vi, part 2. Man Wes has been on an incredible journey I think of Romans 5 about being built up when it comes to trials and that has happened with Wes and he shares his heart here and it's beautiful to see how God is leading and loving him in freedom and I think we can all just learn from this and it's a blessing and I love Wes, I love his heart for the gospel and I love how he's just out here sending it in Jesus's name. So you're going to love this episode. Buckle up and strap in. This is West Vi, part two. All right, we're back with West Vi. It's West Vi month on the Death to Life podcast. Only people that have been directly impacted from West Vi or are West Vi can be on the podcast, and so we had Micah last week. It's the 4th of July. Today it's all about freedom with Wes. Man Wes, how are you doing, bro?
Speaker 2:I'm good man, I'm good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man.
Speaker 2:How did we finish off last time? Freedom in the 4th of July? Oh yeah, but man, how did we finish off last time? Freedom in the Fourth of July oh yeah, but yeah. We finished off last time with the thing that has stuck in my mind. It was like the closing thought was that now I move from a place where I know that if someone can hear this gospel and receive it, it will change their life and how that has empowered my confidence in ministry. I think that's where we tied it up.
Speaker 1:Remind me what year was that that we recorded? That Was that two years ago.
Speaker 2:It was two years ago, yeah, it was 23. March-ish 23 early early 23. Wow, that's over two years ago.
Speaker 1:So have I known you for like four or five years now uh, it's getting there, yeah, okay, yeah, it's growing.
Speaker 2:Man, you know, time flies when you're having fun, you know absolutely so.
Speaker 1:at that point when we recorded it, you were pastoring, podcasting, you were doing it all, man. Catch us up, man. What has life been Even in that moment? Maybe there was some stuff that was going on beforehand that you weren't free to talk about on that episode. Catch me up, man. What has life been like from that moment to where we arrived to today, on the 4th of July 2025?
Speaker 2:So when I was thinking about the through line here for this, lauren was like what are we even going to talk about? And I was like I don't know, we'll figure it out on the go. She's like, well, you gotta you gotta know something going in. So I started thinking about it. I've got, I've got the opening line right, the opening line.
Speaker 2:I have had a long and complicated relationship with the entity that we call the church and uh, and it goes back a long ways, like and I've thought about this a lot, because you know, there's a lot of talk about church hurt. There's a lot of talk about, you know, just the way. You know people are damaged by the church and there's there's been times, things that I've been through, that it makes it seem odd that I would even want to be part of the church and I've actually, I've actually had people ask me like, why don't you go find another church? Like you know, this is what happens there, it happens everywhere, right, but I think that when the reason that you can be so hurt by the entity is one that the entity exists and that's a whole other conversation Maybe it's not supposed to exist like it does but then, especially in in our tradition where, uh, man, you can just really get hurt, uh, by people who think they're doing the absolute right thing. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Um, and this is not the first time that it happened to me many, many years ago. I just kind of want to go back um a little bit to the first time that I kind of experienced this kind of difficulty. It was back in 2014, leading up to the 2015 General Conference. If you know, you know.
Speaker 1:That's going on right now in 2025.
Speaker 2:It's going on right now, 2025. Um, I, I entered into this season where I was. I was, you know, working in a conference near the general conference office. I've had a lot of connections in the division office and the general conference office and, uh, long story short, just really got burnt, man, just seeing these people that you think like, oh, these people get to this level you know, they get to this, this level in the organization, that there should be some sort of expectation of the quality of their Christianity, the substance of their Christianity. And then you realize they're just humans, like we're humans.
Speaker 2:But I learned that the hard way and just seeing a lot of things happen, a lot of painful things happen. A lot of stuff happened towards the ministry I was part of and the things we were trying to do, and it really damaged me. You know, I really struggled and I entered this period of time where I was just I felt so separated from God. I didn't know what it was and it was just deafening silence, separation is just what it felt like and and this is before I had received, you know, freedom, before I had really come to the, the full understanding of the gospel that I, that I'm walking in now. But, um, someone kind of came alongside me and journeyed with me and I discovered this this term and nancy talked about it a couple episodes back the dark night of the soul. And I think it's good to give these things language and context, because these are things that the church has known about and worked through for centuries. There seems to be this experience that comes up in a Christian's life from time to time, some more than others, where, for no reason, you just feel like you are alone. Right, and maybe not no reason. Obviously you know different people have different stories, but something happens and it just feels like God is gone, it feels like he's distant, and this has been given this language of the dark night of the soul. And that period was very dark for me. I almost walked away from faith again.
Speaker 2:Um, I definitely stepped out of ministry for a time and thought I was going to just go a different path that I wasn't going to, to move towards ministry. Uh, as a response to that, it was very painful emotionally, like when I think about that time, uh, even right now my body is hurting, like there's aches in my body from the experience of that time, just kind of going there in my mind and, but I got through it. You know, I came out the other side and and God was there and beautiful and and he was teaching me things and my confidence in him was bolstered. On the other side, and that that has been historically the experience of uh, you know, the believers who have talked about this over the centuries is that on the other side of this, there is a, an explosion, an increase of faith, right, because whatever happens in that time for you, um it, it just bolsters you, right?
Speaker 2:And uh, you know, I don't know, you know it's hard for me to give it language of. You know well who's causing this dark night, and I don't want to get into that. All I know is on the other side of it, it's good and you realize you were never really alone, right? So, and I guess it was, I guess it was 2023. I can't remember exactly if it was 22 or 23. I started sensing, just in my quiet time with the Lord, that this was about to happen again, that I was about to enter into another dark, dark night of the soul, and at the time, I was leading the free to be Bible study with with LR, and we talked about it on the Bible study. You know, uh shared that with the group and is it cause everything was going so good?
Speaker 1:Were you waiting for the other shoe to drop, Like you just like? Is that one of those things? Is that what?
Speaker 2:happened. No, no, no, and 15 things were not going good. Um and and no, I don't think it was that. I don't think it was just that like, oh, things are going too good. You know, something's got to happen.
Speaker 2:It was very much that the spirit was was telling me this was going to happen. It was very clear, and there there were. There were things happening. It was more like emotional qualities, things happening inside of myself and just kind of that unexplicable kind of distance, darkness. Right, I still was hearing from God, I still was walking with God, but it felt as though there was a space. But it felt as though there was a space even though I could see God actively working. Like that, that personal relationship was seemed to be.
Speaker 2:Distancing is the only way I can really explain it. But in praying through that I came to the realization God got me through it last time. If he got me through it last time, then you know what. And on the other side of it last time, it was good. I don't look back and wish for that time to go away at all, right? So if that was the case last time, then if if I'm going to go through another season like this, then bring it on, let's go and and. So that persisted for a few months, but then it seemed like it went away and and I I kind of you know ignorantly thought well, I guess because I didn't feed it it didn't happen.
Speaker 2:And so I felt really good about that. I was like man, you know, confess the truth right, claim it, repent, you know, change your mind about how this is going to go and look at God, you know, like that that's what I felt, like coming out of the side, and things were going good during that time and things continue to go good during that time. Um, probably one of the the the greatest seasons of ministry that I have yet been through. Um, that that 22, 23, leading up to, uh, march of of 24. Um, is that when I visited your church?
Speaker 1:Yes, Invite Richard to your church, to your church and it goes ready for it to blow up.
Speaker 2:No, um, you know, and, like I said, you know, we recorded that podcast in there and, and this is the thing I decided like I had been on a journey and that's all in the last, the last episode. But I decided I think it was 23, in january 23 that I was just going to go all in the last episode. But I decided I think it was 23, in January of 23, that I was just going to go all in, like I was going to quit sugarcoating it, but I was just going to say it straight and I preached a series starting off the year in 23. And I got, you know, I just took my church on the journey and we're free from and dead to sin. You know that we took my church on the journey and we're free from and dead to sin. You know that we are children of God.
Speaker 2:So that I could ask them what is your relationship to sin? And they would say dead to it and free from it. And I would say you know what is your relationship to God? And they would say you know son, daughter, you know loved, and. And we just kind of started baking that into the, into the culture of the church, uh, into the teaching and just started moving very methodically to really establish that gospel in the church, and the impact of that, not only for me but for the church, um, was incredible, you know it was. It was really fun to watch as people receive that and to see the gospel coming into contact with the real life of people and the questions and the doubts and the pain and the things that they were going through being touched by the gospel and to see lives changed. Um, it was really, really powerful.
Speaker 1:Isn't that the the most amazing feeling in the world? It's why we go to, why we stay at the after party, it's why we hang out afterwards and we're just like looking for people who are you know, you see the questions in their eyes. We desperately want them to know that they already have the answer Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the incredible freedom in it is this is kind of a funny, funny story, um, and I'll make it. I'll make it connect Um. One one day, on Friday, um, justin and I were on a meeting with someone else and it ran really long, and then Justin and I got to talk in and that ran really long, and then finally I was like I was like all right, man, I got to go, I got to get ready to preach tomorrow, and he's like, or, you could just trust that the spirit is going to speak through you and not not worry about it. And I said, no, that's not how I roll, um, and so I got off, I, I worked out my sermon, spent three or four hours, you know, just kind of working on it, um, and at the time I had kind of gone back to manuscripting more, uh, so, writing my sermons out, you know, more fully.
Speaker 2:And, uh, and then the next day, uh, when I got it to preach, my notes had not synced to my iPad and I couldn't get my iPad to connect to the internet to download them, and so I had no notes and I had to preach without my notes. And I was like all right, god, and so it just changed my preaching because I was like you know what, like I'm, I'm thinking through my sermons. I put in the effort, right, I don't just like go up there and fly by the seat of my pants. But this idea that I have to perfectly plan out everything that I'm going to say went out the window. And and it's really, it's really a fun experience for me preaching like this, because I know, I know where I'm going, I know what I want to say.
Speaker 2:I've got really one thing that I want to say, uh, and that is I want people to know that in Christ, by faith, they are free from sin. You know, and and that's going to come through in any, no matter what I'm talking about. If I'm talking about, uh, you know, devotional life, if I'm talking about, uh, you know devotional life. If I'm talking about stewardship, if I'm talking about the three angels messages, no matter what I'm talking about, all of it is rooted in this gospel truths, right? So so I know I'm going to get that in there, um, but what's fun for me now is to like listen back to my sermons and then to be able to think about the conversation that's going on between me and the spirit while I'm preaching is wild, and I don't know if any, if any other pastors have the experience, but sometimes I'll have like this whole dialogue in my head about what I'm about to say, and then it'll come out and when I listen back to it cause I always re-listen to my sermons it'll be like, you know, I'll remember that moment and it'll just be like it'll pass in an instant and then I'm like I had this crazy long.
Speaker 2:It's like the time space continuum, like breaks in those moments, you know, because I'm I'm, I'm with, with the spirit in that moment, and so it makes it really fun. It makes it fun to preach. It changed my whole perspective on preaching, isn't it like?
Speaker 1:you before. I don't know if we said this during the podcast or if we were recording already that we knew where we were going to start today, but we didn't know where it was going to go. I don't preach a lot by any stretch. I probably preach five or six times a year, but that's all I need, Because it's just like you. I know what I want to say. I just need a place to start and then I know at some point in the sermon I'm going to be at that spot, but I don't know how I'm going to get there.
Speaker 1:And maybe it's my ADHD. Let's say it's the Holy Spirit. I think the Holy Spirit moves through all of us like that. But those conversations are going crazy, Like my mind is going a mile a minute and then sometimes I have to catch myself with oh no, you can't say that exact thing. I've been up there where I almost said something wild and then God was like no, no, no, no, no, and then stop me, and then I'm, I'm able to to continue. But have you found that when you preach that way, like what, what is the pros? And like, do you like doing that better than the manuscripting, or do you still stick pretty much to manuscripting?
Speaker 2:Oh, no, no, no, I don't manuscript anymore at all.
Speaker 2:I do a, I do a full kind of outline, but it's it's very haphazard, um, you know, and and sometimes where I'll get into like really manuscript is like certain sections where I'm about or I'm trying to break down a complicated concept and I want to be very intentional with it.
Speaker 2:But then even when I preach it, um, I oftentimes will not go back and just read it, right, but, but I do that work of of writing it out fully, uh, in the outline in those sections, so that it allows me to think through it right, to still that that mile a minute thinking in my brain, so that I have to like work through it slowly and I can. You know the rabbit trail will run the same way when I'm preparing is when I'm preaching. But I've done that work now and I can, I can interact with those thoughts and I don't. I'm more able to discern the difference between the speaking of the Lord and just the thinking mind and my mind running, and you know, thoughts that are simply thoughts and nothing more, and so that practice, both in the preparation and in the preaching, is a big part of how I stay in communion with God.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. One of my favorite preachers. They asked him well, what are you going to preach about? And he was like I don't know. I'm just going to get up there and I've been hanging out with God all week long, so when I get up there, that's what's going to come out. And I was like that's dope. He's like he does not know what he's gonna say, but he's just been with the father in the secret place all week long. So that's what's gonna come out.
Speaker 1:I think that's awesome yeah, and I mean you do that maybe you don't say it like that, but as you're writing all that stuff down and like that's what you're spending time with god and then when you get, that's what comes out, well once I get to the writing portion of it.
Speaker 2:I've already spent, you know, months because you know my wife gets all stressed out about my sermon preparation because it'll come down and I'll put like three or four hours in on, like usually the Thursday or Friday, before I preach, um to to bring it all together. But that sermon is the culmination of months of prep. Like I'm preaching in three weeks because I don't preach that much anymore um, which we'll get to that part of the story in a minute um, but I've known that I'm going to preach the sermon that I'm going to preach for at least two months and and I've got sermons cooking. It's like I want to preach but I'm waiting for the time to preach them, um, and so you know there's a lot of I mean that's just my process. Like I, I am constantly working through things with God, questions, um, and then also, you know, talking with people, yeah, and this has been another thing that's been huge for me in, like Bible study is now this is something that I don't.
Speaker 2:I don't prep for Bible studies at all anymore, and Bible studies I absolutely go into, like your boy, uh, dan, and just like we're just going to let the spirit lead. You know, we're just going to get in this and God's going to do what God's going to do and and that is fine. I'm not. I'm not comfortable to do that preaching, because I'm usually being recorded when I'm preach, um, but uh, you know, I, I I'm having a blast doing Bible studies, uh, with people in this season that I'm in, because we just go and we start talking about what's in their life and we start bringing the gospel to bear on it and just let the spirit speak. You know, go, look at the verses that he brings up.
Speaker 1:I think if I was a pastor and I was like pastoring a church week for week, I don't think I would do what like how I preach now, like when I'm a guest and I just go and I do whatever. But if you get a guest spot, like I think you should just send it like that, because you're just giving. You're just giving like this is who I am, this is my heart. You guys asked me to come and this, like what you're going to get, is my heart. Like when I went to preach at Oklahoma, I'm just like I can do that because I'm not walking you through a whole sermon series and I'm not moving the church Like as a pastor. You're moving a group of people, you're inching them forward. You can't push them too crazy. You want to, you're going to take them with you and so there's got to be some planning with that. But if you're just a guest speaker, you're like yo, here's my heart, and my heart is Christ and him crucified, and I want y'all to know about it. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Give it a shot. Next guest somebody listening. Invite get a West to your church and make your invitation that he has to just get up and send it and not plan anything. Thank you for listening, yeah.
Speaker 2:But preferably somewhere fun like Colorado or Hawaii or Pacific Northwest, maybe, maybe Southern California. I've never been to southern california, so we're gonna put some geographic restrictions on that, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah yeah
Speaker 2:so you were back to what we were talking about, you're, you're we were talking about preaching during that time in 2023, I think yeah yeah, and just just my church being with me, uh, moving with me, receiving it, um, and the thing, and the thing that was really great in that is that once you, once you're free of the burden of proof. So so this is something that I think a lot of people in our tradition will struggle with is when we try to be a witness, when we try to be a uh you, when we try to be a uh, you know, an active disciple or whatever we feel like we have to be able to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that what we believe is true, and we have to win the argument. But once, once you get free from this, this thinking that you have to like, be on and if you fail, like God has, you know God has failed because he sent you and you blew it, you know, this kind of like whatever, like I'm last, I'm the last chance for this person to ever receive, you know anything. Once you get free from that Um it, it becomes a lot more fun in life. And so, from a pastoral perspective, I think a lot of pastors struggle with this, of this feeling like they have to be able to answer every question, that they have to be able to defend every position and win every argument. And there's a lot of pastors that I see struggle with that and a lot of church members that get hurt as a result of that. And so there were people that were questioning, you know, but we had a relationship, we were, they were in my church, they knew me Right, and and so they questioned.
Speaker 2:There was one guy, uh, that really struggled with um. Uh, that really struggled with um, you know, first John one nine, and that you know we can't. You know that we shouldn't say that we're not sinners because you know we have to, or that we. He struggled with that a little bit, but he really didn't like the whole idea of confession not being like rehearsing your sins and asking for forgiveness, um, and he didn't get settled on that until he had a conversation with you, um, you know, and but we were able to have long, respectful conversations and that happened with a lot of people and, and you know, to see people really wrestling with it, like that's the thing for me that's just incredible.
Speaker 2:Like I was visiting with someone in my church this week and and we were talking about the difference between, you know, what we would present as biblical sanctification and what many in our tradition would conceptualize of sanctification as and that was on, I think, wednesday, and today he sent me this chart that he's made like breaking our conversation and really digging into it, and this is someone that has received freedom since I've been here. Right, that they're trying to process and work through what they've been taught versus what they're learning now. Right, and so they're digging in and that's fun as a pastor.
Speaker 1:So there's a chart with Haggiazo being set apart, and then sanctification being all in the greek.
Speaker 2:It's just, it's just breaking down the justification. They have an injustification. Um, I don't know if this just just I'll send it to you after, but they, they just broke it down like their understanding and we don't is it giving them life betrayal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh yeah, they're, they're pumped about it, right. And so I think, when the spirit's moving and when you're just, when you're just trying to walk in alignment with the spirit, right? Ephesians two um, you know that, that we're just living in this place where we are, his workmanship, you know, and he has prepared good works for us to walk in, and so the rest of it's not really up to me to find that spot or make that spot, and then you let the people go who don't want anything to do with it or aren't receiving it, and you point at the people that come around and are looking for it, and then you just get to see God on the move.
Speaker 1:So Old West sermon was like I'm going to show how we're right about this certain topic and you would just proof text it all the way to this point so you guys can be comfortable that we are correct.
Speaker 2:Yep, yeah.
Speaker 1:And you liked those kind of sermons.
Speaker 2:I did at the time, because you love being right. Yeah, I mean, it's cool to be right, I guess. Yeah, well, right was all of it. You know, and this ties into you know, just even the conflict and the controversy that I've gone through, and like that you've gone through, and that so many of our friends have gone through, is all based in this fear of being wrong.
Speaker 2:It comes from this idea that what we need now is a purification of the knowledge, of the truth, and if we can get to the right level of purity of knowledge and we, we, once, we believe and do all the things right, then the end will come. So, so then, any deviation of what is established norm becomes heresy, which is interesting because I just saw, I was watching there's some clips coming up from this pastor and I need to go watch, listen to the podcast or watch the podcast and he's talking about heresy and being a heretic and he's like I'm a heretic and I call myself a heretic all the time, like in joking, but now I'm going to say it proudly, because a heretic is someone who has broken with the established traditional norm and and that's exactly what I've done, that's what you've done, we're heretics, right we have.
Speaker 2:We have broken with the established traditional norm certainly you've been called that yeah, and but it's true, right, and, and the crazy thing is is like it's all based in the sphere, like, well, but if you say this, then it's going going to undo this, this, this, this and this right, and so we can't allow this to change, even if there's strong biblical support for it, even if you know it's just right there on the surface of the text.
Speaker 2:We cannot allow anything to change because of what it's going to undo to all these other things. And and so knowledge is salvation. And I wouldn't have said that in the past and I don't think that any of the well-meaning you know, uh, members of the Adventist Inquisition, uh, would think that of themselves now. Um, but but once you, once you kind of get to the other side of it and you look back, I can look back and see like knowledge was salvation to me, but I could just know it all right, and if I could convince other people to do it, all right, even if I couldn't, because God knows, I wasn't living up to all the, all the light that I had, but I could go hard to try to get you to live up to it. And uh, man, it's all, it's a whole deal and it's it's all knowledge based. It's all.
Speaker 1:So we don't believe that, but we believe that Right. So in Sabbath school the other day there was this brother who was saying God wants your heart, he wants you to have a new heart. That's what he wants he. He doesn't need your actions, he needs your heart. And then I was like, okay, how does that happen? And they're like, um, I don't know and then I was like he's like.
Speaker 1:What do you think I'm like? Jesus christ is your new heart, christ in you, the hope of glory. You've been crucified with Christ. It is no longer you who live. You have a new motive now because of Christ. And so if we know that, that it kind of subverts all of this, these actions that we're trying to get right because we know right, and then it's uncomfortable. And so I saw something the other day and I've been doing all this stuff with porn addiction and it was talking about how people don't want to be happy, they want to be comfortable and any new idea makes them uncomfortable. So you know, I'm sure your church or in your past, like you've seen a bunch of people living through death, but they wouldn't want to change.
Speaker 1:Right they can't change their mind, even though you're like no, look, it's a free gift. In order to change their mind, they first have to become uncomfortable, and they'd rather be miserable and be comfortable than to open their mind a little bit to the fact that maybe I wasn't right about this before.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's, that's absolutely it. And that is why, like, eventually, we keep alluding to this, eventually we'll get to it. But you know, when I was going through what I went through, I was talking with someone upline in the organization and I was asking her, like, where's accountability in all of this? Like, you know, where, where is there going to be, you know, justice in our system for what's been done to me? Um, and they said, well, the organization, like, always tends conservative, because the organization is resistant to change, and so the conservative view will always be trying to maintain what is, and so that voice will always, always have a greater influence in the organization because it's seeking to maintain what already exists. And so that's been an interesting thing for me to just conceptualize of and think about in this especially, like in in process. So take that out of, like this nebulous, you know hierarchy of a, you know 501 C three organization that we call a church, into your local church, where it's the body of believers and and this, what we're talking about here is that when, when the person sitting across from me here's the gospel of believers, and what we're talking about here is that when the person sitting across from me hears the gospel, the default.
Speaker 2:And this is neuroscience, right, this is how the brain works. It seeks to habitualize as much as possible so that it can give energy to the most urgent tasks, and anything that repeats it just normalizes, as this is what it's supposed to be. That's how we're designed. It's how God designed us, right? So we don't have to think about breathing, we don't have to think. When I want to move my hand, okay, I need to activate my bicep and retract it and I need to extend my tricep and I don't know any more muscles in my arm, you know, to get it, I don't have to think about that, right, I just do it Right. But there's there's synapses, there's things firing for that to happen, right, and it all happens automated.
Speaker 2:But that happens beyond just our biology of breathing and moving. It happens in our life and in almost every aspect. The brain seeks to habitualize as much as possible. And so when we talk about our community of faith, whether that's our local church or our denomination or whatever, or just our group of friends, like, we seek to habitualize certain things and our brain will just establish this is what is. And if we change it, our initial reaction is like oh, that doesn't feel good, right? So let's get back to what feels good, right, and that's that's not necessarily sin or a bad thing, that's a, that's a design feature, right um?
Speaker 1:so you know what can wreck that if you hit rock bottom yeah because you're taking you down the wrong direction yeah, right, if your habits have it's going to slam you if the habituation has led to you being completely unloving and not receiving love, or just being completely judgmental and like your eyes are open to that, or if the way you think has actually put oil on the gasoline, that was bad habits, like a porn addiction or the guilt condemnation and shit like that's.
Speaker 1:When people change, Like with my story, it was easy for me, easier for me to see the gospel because I was like, well, what I'm doing ain't working and so this thing isn't working was more powerful than me being comfortable with religion.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that we're having a moment in the church, within our church, but I mean I see it in the wider church, not just Adventism, but I see it across, you know, instagram and social media, and that there is this revival of the gospel, this preaching of freedom. Right, that is growing. And I think that especially you know I can only talk about my context, right I think that when I sit down and I talk with people who are able to kind of process what they've learned, realize, have wrestled through the, the shift from the old legalistic thinking to to freedom, they they hit that rock bottom experience spiritually. They just got to the point where they knew that what they were desiring from God was not happening with the framework that they had been given. Right, but they still believe God. I mean, that was my experience and that's their experience.
Speaker 2:I think this is the whole deconstruction movement that's happening in wider Christianity is, you know, not just that people are wanting to flee faith, it's that the constructs that we had were not able to give it.
Speaker 2:And so you get to this place where it's like, okay, I got to look for something else, and then in that place you have the space to go okay, well, what if? What if there's something else? And then when you go to scripture, saying, okay, well, what if there's something else? And then you start to find it. And then you get to you start to see like, oh wait, this has been here the whole time and it's pervasive, and it's from Genesis to Revelation. It's not just a New Testament thing, right, it's, it's the whole Bible. Um gets reframed in the light of the gospel and and I think we're seeing a revival in that sense, um, where people just kind of hit spiritual rock bottom with trying to be good enough, trying to earn God's favor, trying to earn God's love, trying to to to become sanctified, um, and they realize that's broken and they're looking for something else. Yeah man.
Speaker 1:So back to the story. Yeah, we'll get there eventually, 2023, somewhere around there. Dark night of the soul. You thought you'd passed it.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, so, uh, we're, we're rocking along. Um, you know we started doing some, some online uh evangelism with uh, with love reality and my church. We partnered together with the conference, um, and and you know, we, we built up, we had, uh, you know we had a kickoff thing. We had Jonathan uh and Serena Bradshaw come and uh do a kickoff weekend. Uh, we had, you know, my Bible study. We were running, you know, ads driving people, you know, from around our town to to your Bible studies and my Bible studies and Justin's Bible studies and, you know, doing online wave one and all of that Um and and in that in that period is when things started to kind of heat up uh for for love reality and Ted Wilson went and got up there and popped off uh at annual council and and and you know it's funny because Jonathan called me after that happened and he said, hey, you know, like we think the heat's going to probably turn up here, like, if you want to, you know, cancel our agreement and just step away so that you don't get caught up in this.
Speaker 2:Like we understand, do you want out? And I said, well, I don't, but let me go, let me go talk to to my administration and just run it by them and see what they want to do. So I went to him and I told him. I said, hey, this is what happened, this is what was said. You know, lr is offering us the out, um, if we want out. And they said, no, we're good, you know, we're okay with it. And so we, we continued on and uh, and we kept moving. And then, um, you know, I came up for ordination and I was approved for ordination and then, after I was approved for ordination, somebody started opposing my ordination. And so, yeah, well, I hadn't been ordained yet, right? But I had been approved.
Speaker 2:That would feel weird, yeah, yeah, and I didn't. You know, god was good to me. Fortunately, I didn't really realize what was happening when I went into that meeting and had to spend two hours defending my theology you know theology and proving that I was Adventist. But after the fact I was like whoa and then I realized what had happened and I talked to someone else and they said, yeah, but no one would ever tell me who it was that had been opposing it. I have my suspicions, but it doesn't really matter. Ultimately I was ordained, but the there were questions that were raised about my ordination from people who knew that I was working with love reality and they, you know, were questioning whether or not I should be ordained because of my, my affiliation with love reality. Um, and ultimately I was ordained and, uh, and it was a great, it was a great ordination.
Speaker 2:Uh, my mentor for my whole life. He came up to be the speaker for my ordination and he was so upset that they had uh, that they had done that to me Like he was livid. So when he got up he preached for like an hour on the gospel and the 10 commandments. It just went commandment by commandment and explained how, uh, you know, it was the gospel and the 10 commandments. It just went commandment by commandment and explained how, uh, you know, it was the gospel, and um, and then he just took over the ordination and and instead of turning it back over to my conference officials and the union officials, he just called my church up, which was such a special moment for me. Uh, you can't see it. There's a picture right above this one. That is the picture of my ordination, and I wanted my ordination to be with my church. So I was fortunate it was in my church, but I wanted my church to do it Right, because that's what happens in scriptures the church comes around and sets apart this person, right. And so he just took over and he's like you know what he's like, this isn't my conference, what are you going to do? So he called my church up and he just had the church come up and lay hands on me. I'm surrounded by my church and and they, you know, they they participate in my organization. Very special, special moment. And that becomes important later. So that's why I took that little story turn. Um. So that was November.
Speaker 2:Fast forward down to January. We're doing our wave one, online wave one. We've invested tens of thousands of dollars, the conference has invested tens of thousands of dollars into this partnership with love reality. And uh, the you know the video comes out. I'm not even going to name the channel in case no one knows, but if you know, you know what video it is and and so that lights up you know, a certain segment within, within the conference of lay people, lay people and a couple of pastors.
Speaker 2:And uh, there were people, there was this one like feel, evidently he has a doctorate. There were people, there was this one like, evidently he has a doctorate, but he's never been a pastor, but he's an elder in a church. And in this paper his basic conclusion was this it sounds like love reality is saying these things, talking about cheap grace and you know whatever. But then he has this line and he says but that's not what they're actually saying, right, so that's a summary line. And he says but that's not what they're actually saying, right, so that's, that's a summary. But he says that. But anyway, this paper gets shared around and it lights up this opposition within the conference.
Speaker 2:Um, so they actually came. Like, I invited them, I didn't. I've never had a conversation with this man in my life, um, but I have a mutual friend, so you know he, I knew he was asking questions, so I told him. I said we're having a Q and a right Cause. It's Thursday nights kind of how it goes in way one Q and a time I was like tell him to send me the questions that he wants and I'll ask Jonathan the questions, cause I was asking the questions. And so we did that. We asked the questions.
Speaker 2:You know, uh, that he had that he wanted clarification on and, but just with everything that was going on I don't even know the full measure of it it just became this like slow burn under the surface of this opposition to me being in the conference because of my affiliation with Love Reality, and then this growing kind of um, uh, rhetoric around love reality because of what Ted Wilson had said and because of this video and and so the plan had been for almost two years at this point, 18 months, that we would have that kickoff with, with JB and Serena, and then we would have you come at the end to kind of, we do the wave one, then we'd have you come in and do a live weekend and we'd invite everybody to come in for the live weekend and, uh, and so that's what we did.
Speaker 2:And you know, we had a huge turnout, uh, you know, for the live weekend. It was a powerful weekend, um, and and then Lauren told me during that weekend uh, she said everything is about to go bad, like we're about to lose everything because of this. And I was like, no, you're, you're, you're just in your fields, you're, you're worried, you're concerned, right, cause we hadn't seen, I hadn't seen, like I knew that this guy had questions, I knew this paper was around, but the but it really hadn't kicked up. It had been very, you know, no one had really said like, you know, don't do this, or whatever. We had asked multiple. There'd been other conversations where I'd asked, and even before we started, I sat down with my president, uh, in September of 22.
Speaker 2:And I said this is what I want to do, uh, and this is who I want to work with. I want to work with love, reality. Uh, I said, but it could be problematic because, you know, that's kind of a you either love them or you hate them kind of situation. I said so. So here's the conferences that work with them, here's the presidents that support them, here's the conferences that don't work with them and will fire you for even thinking that you're somewhat affiliated with them.
Speaker 2:Right, I said here's the presidents, call them, talk to them Like I sent him. I gave him Jonathan's book, I sent him. You know the way one sermons. I said I want you to know, you know what this could be. But I was like but this is what I believe about it and this is why I want to work with them. And so they signed off on it and uh, and so after your weekend you know, lauren tells me this I think it's all about the end I'm like, no, it's not going to end. Like the conference was behind us. You know this was the conference deal. They supported this all the way through. They kept saying go blah, blah, blah, um, but uh, but shortly after, um, it it quickly started to unravel. So, and even before, so, the night before you got there, I got called into the conference office and and I had resolved in my mind, if I'm just being honest, like I had an inkling that maybe they were going to try to tell me to cancel the weekend. And you know the conference owns the building. So if the conference says you can't do this in the building, that's fine. I was like we'll move whatever. If they say we can't do it in the church. I'm not going to whatever, but we're not not doing the event. But they just said you know some people are concerned. You know, would you not live stream the event? And so you know we agreed to that. We didn't. We didn't live stream it. We live stream church because it's church, but we didn't live stream the event. And then we were done. That was the end of the partnership. The deal was over, it was done.
Speaker 2:Well, then everything started kicking up and there started to be a lot of pushback within the conference, and so TJ and I were called in to the conference. We got called in for meetings on the same day and we were texting back and forth because we had started to hear that this was building like from other pastors and stuff, uh, that people were calling and talking and all this stuff. And then we got called in, that people were calling and talking and all this stuff. And then we got called in and so TJ and I were texting and the president is texting us calling us in, and so I respond back to TJ. He just called me. I'm coming in at this time because TJ had already been scheduled.
Speaker 2:And then I sent that back to my president. So that was real embarrassing and I said, you know? So I just told him I was like sorry about that. Obviously we're talking about this. Could we just come in together? So TJ and I went in for the meeting together and, um, you know, it was kind of informal, just asking questions, blah, blah, blah, what was the main, if you could distill it down to like the main theological issue.
Speaker 1:That was the problem.
Speaker 2:So the the the crux of all of this is that, um, that you can't say you're not a sinner and that, um, you know this idea that people get that we're saying you don't have to ask for forgiveness, as in like, you never have to repent, right, and there's this misunderstanding of repentance and forgiveness and confession. And that was the main crux of it that we're teaching people that you don't have to repent, that you don't have to confess your sin, that you don't have to repent, that you don't have to confess your sin, that you don't have to ask for forgiveness and that you should think that you're no longer a sinner and the whole holy flesh, um, you know, accusation, that was really the crux of it. So, so they, they end up forming this study committee and they tell us like, listen, this isn't about you, right, but there's concerns about love, reality, and so we're going to form this study committee. And they tell us, like, listen, this isn't about you, right, but there's concerns about love, reality, and so we're going to form this study committee, but it's not about you, don't worry about it, you know. And then they, then they formed this committee of everyone in the conference who has been stirring the issue. They put them on a committee together to study this out. Don't worry about the most ridiculous thing ever.
Speaker 2:Right, and fortunately, there were some advocates and, and you know, we we called into question the makeup of the committee as well, because, you know, this was, you know, definitely directed towards my church and TJ's church, but they put no representation from our church on it. Um, we weren't on it. Not that we wanted to be on it, you know, it was just the people who were agitating the issue and it's like so you know, and one of them even said in a sermon one time one of the pastors he preached this on the live stream, so I have the recording. He says you know, we have these guys in the conference right now, you know, preaching this love, reality message, and so we're going to, we're going to do the Christian thing where we're, we're studying it out and then we're going to tell them why they're wrong.
Speaker 1:It was just you know who's going to tell them that that's not how it works. Yeah, yeah. That's a literal. Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So it got wild. So you know that that elder that wrote that paper, he was preaching a sermon and he said some pretty crazy things about you know, tj and I. Indirectly, he said you know, there's some people not too far from here that are preaching this message and this is dangerous, and blah, blah, blah, you know. And so I called him up and I called the president. I was like, hey, this guy is getting up on Sabbath and it's talking about me and and so one, he's disqualified to be on this committee too. I want to meet with him. I want to sit down and talk with him face to face. He says he has questions but he's doing nothing to actually address them, right, and but he refused, he refused to to to talk to me. He refused to meet with me.
Speaker 2:And, uh, and then in the course of this, um, I, I have a call with with the president and I'm told that, um, you know, there may be a chance that the committee is going to want to talk to me. And I said, well, why would the committee want to talk to me, talk to me? And I said, well, why would the committee want to talk to me If it's clear that I'm not part of love reality, that our partnership with love reality has ended, which everyone wanted. So that's done. Why is it that I'm going to have to come talk to this committee If this committee is not about me? And he said, well, you have to accept that people you know see you as part of love reality, and so that was devastating for me. So so, when this happens, I let my elders know what's going on and, um, and you know, told him I was like I don't really want this to get out, but this is what's happening. Um, and find out, there's stuff's just been going on behind the scenes. I don't want to get into all that.
Speaker 2:So, as it, as it gets closer, right the, there comes a video out about really about TJ, but it's me and TJ. It comes out the day before the committee is going to meet, right, and it chops up one of TJ sermons. But then the funny thing about this, right and it chops up one of TJ's sermons, but then the funny thing about this right is that I've really struggled with this because this was clearly targeted at me. I was told by one of the pastors who I had a good relationship with, who was on the other side of this that there was a specific plan of how they were going to remove my credentials, of how they were going to remove my credentials, and that they were first going to go after love reality, get a moratorium put on love reality and then take that moratorium and apply it to me to remove my credentials. So they were going to get a condemnation of love reality and then take that condemnation and put it to me and say I have to be removed from ministry because I'm part of love reality. So all of this is going on. They're not really coming at me, right, and so there's this like this, like dissonance in me, that that I, I can't really.
Speaker 2:I decided early on that I wasn't going to defend y'all because I can't. I can't honestly speak, for even though I think that there's a great deal of alignment between yourself and myself, jonathan, justin, all of us, right, we've had lots of conversations. I think there's a lot of agreement, but there's there's, for sure, areas we don't agree, right, that's no, no, two people are a hundred percent aligned. So I was like I can't defend y'all, so, but no one's coming to me saying, hey, you said this right, and uh, and so it just got really, really frustrating. So then this video comes out and it's all about TJ and chopping up the sermon and making him say things that he didn't say. And then at the end it puts up this post about me and the secret place, and it's one where I'm praying in my office with, like, my hands up and I'm praying, and so then that becomes that I'm teaching new age spiritualism, right, and there's emails.
Speaker 1:Were you praying to the?
Speaker 2:Buddha in that? No, no, no, no. Evidently I was communing with demons. Is the email that the president received that that this has moved from theological error to spiritual danger because pastor West is communing with demons? Theological error to spiritual danger because pastor West is communing with demons.
Speaker 1:What was the evidence that you were commuting with the?
Speaker 2:deep Because they they caught a screenshot of me praying with my hands open, and and I mean the captions, right, there was talking about I pray with my hands open as a as a posture of receptivity, and then when I'm, when I'm receiving from God, when I'm opening myself up to God to receive his spirit, to receive revelation, and when I'm relinquishing things, I turn my hands over Like that's all in the caption.
Speaker 2:And if the video is playing, that's what's happening, right, but since it's paused, it just looks like I'm sitting there meditating, and that's what everyone's saying is that, oh, I'm, I'm practicing, you know, tm or whatever, and so transcendental meditation, and so all this goes on. Man and I, I'm just kind of going a little crazy because they're not coming for me, right? I'm just the guy in the chair. So then there's this whole conspiracy theory that comes out that I'm a love reality plant and that I have been sent there by love reality to subvert the conference and that I'm I'm leading TJ astray, right? So people are coming up to TJ going. You need to watch out for some of these other pastors.
Speaker 1:They may not have your best interest in part 2019.
Speaker 2:Like before, like I had, love.
Speaker 1:Reality was playing the long game. Yeah, they were like. And then 2024 we'll roll around and that's when we'll get him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then you know we brought in, uh, emily Ann to be our Bible worker for our evangelism, right, and so they're like he brought in a love reality Bible worker, you know, and all this stuff, and you know. So we were there to steal members. That was the conspiracy theory that was going on because Justin had said he was going to plant a house church. So that became we're there to steal members and we're going to start a love reality church, anyway.
Speaker 2:So I get really frustrated with this because no one's talking to me. No one in my church has a qualm about what I'm saying, like no one. There is literally zero concern about what I'm preaching, right, but my church doesn't know that this is going on. Praise God that somehow no one was actually back channeling to try to affect my church, right? So they didn't even know this was going on through most of it, and this is one of the things that I really one of the things I regret the most is that I didn't let them know what was going on. I tried to protect them from it and I didn't want them to get embittered towards these other churches because all this was coming from other churches in the conference. It wasn't coming from my church, right Um what can.
Speaker 1:when I was getting fired the board meeting, ken, when I was getting fired the board meeting, they brought like 70 people that were supporting me all into the board meeting and the board chairman said that they couldn't speak and then ended it quickly. All that's to say is this Love your church. They would have fought for you, but at the end of the day.
Speaker 2:Yep, you know how it goes you know how it goes, man yeah.
Speaker 2:So this I, I want to get to this because I just I just think it's worth noting, you know, this whole idea of what what people think adventists believe, what people think the gospel is, versus what our actual position is. So I decide like, since I can't say anything and I've been asked to not like respond, right, so I was asked by the Congress don't respond, don't? You know, don't go on the defensive. So I'm like, okay, but it got to the point where I couldn't say nothing. So I'm questioning, right, I'm wondering, I'm doubting, I'm questioning, right, I'm wondering, I'm doubting. I'm like, okay, well, maybe am I like? I'm just the type that's like, even though I didn't come to these things quickly, right, this was a long process over years and years and years for me to to be able to internalize and, and you know, and take ownership of the gospel for myself in this way. I'm like, okay, maybe maybe I did get something wrong. So why don't I go see what the church's official stance is Right? So I go and I grabbed this book. You know some of the evidence.
Speaker 2:Believe, this is the official exposition of our doctrine, right, our theology, and voted by the general conference of Seventh-day Adventists, right? And so I start reading it and there's this chapter, the experience of salvation, and I'm going through, I'm looking to see if I'm wrong, right. But then I find these things Neither justification nor sanctification is the result of meritorious works. They are both the sole result of Christ's grace and righteousness. Skipping down, it says as to the believer's past. At the moment of justification, the believer is also sanctified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of God. He or she becomes a saint. At that point the new believer is redeemed and belongs fully to God as a result of God's call. They are called saints, for they are in Christ because they, not because they have achieved a sinless state.
Speaker 2:Right, so this is the official, this is the official, the official belief. Right, this is what we, we say, and it's all through this thing. Right In Christ. These qualities constitute our perfection. He completed once for all our sanctification and redemption. So I'm just blown away by this Right.
Speaker 1:What year was that?
Speaker 2:book published. This was published. This is the that's a wild that's a wild.
Speaker 2:This is the 2018 edition, okay, but but that belief? So? So that's not. There's more stuff in the one that was added uh, in 2005 I think it was, they added the 28th fundamental and that one's on growing in Christ. There's good stuff in there too, but that has been in there since the first edition in 88. And there's been language change. The language change has actually gotten more gospel oriented, not less so, as we have evolved the language through the general conference. So one of the things they'll do this week is they'll they'll open up and potentially reword some things, right. Um, it's a whole. It's like by committee. Anyway, it's gotten more, more gospel oriented, right? So I just start reading these on on Instagram reels. I say no, no commentary, no editorial. I just am reading and then I'll hold up the book. Right, people lost their ever living minds Like why were they frustrated with that?
Speaker 2:I was misrepresenting the Adventist beliefs I was. I was using this book to try to substantiate that my error was truth and I was like I'm literally just reading it off the page, you know. So I was asked to stop making the videos, which I didn't until I had run my course and made the ones I wanted to make. So during this time, the conference had had all these Bible workers in and, of course, bible workers tend to be more of the traditional ilk, right? So there's one who's really agitating the issue, and everyone knew it. Everyone knew he was the one agitating the issue. Uh, even the administration had told me, when it's first started firing up, that they thought it was him and his wife. Um, and so, uh, my church wanted to start going out door to door with this literature ministry. And uh, and you know, I was trying to empower my church, and so I told him I was like, look, that's fine. I was like, you know, but let's do it right, let's do a kickoff weekend, let's get everyone pumped, let's take a big group out, whatever they have this whole program. So I said, you know, invite them to come, but I won't allow this, this woman, to have the pulpit. And then I felt bad about that. I was like you know what? Like you know, why am I being like that? So I relented. I said, listen, you know, it's fine, I would prefer it to be someone else, but if that's who, it has to be fine, you know? Um, well, that's who they wanted to send. So they said we're going to send this person. Well, I'm out of town. And they come, and then they show up and it's not her preaching, it's her husband, and her husband, uh, gets up there and starts talking about if someone delivers to you, uh, you know, another gospel of false. It's a false gospel. Don't listen to him. Like you know, uh, pretty plain sub subtext is several people got up and left Cause even though they didn't know what was going on. They knew that he was talking about me and they didn't appreciate it. Um, and so I, uh, I was very upset because I did not invite him to preach. He, he snuck into my pulpit right and he says that he didn't, but I didn't invite him to speak. And his wife never said he was the one speaking. It was always her when she was communicating with my elder. And so I'm told that I've got the wrong read on this, that that I need to have a little understanding. And so I asked to meet with him, you know, so we could sit down face to face and talk. And uh, and we did.
Speaker 2:And this was the this was the funny thing in all of this. So we're, we're talking, and, uh, and we had to have a mediator because, you know, he was a bit of a hothead. And so someone came to the meeting to to make sure that he didn't, you know, and so someone came to the meeting to make sure that he didn't, you know, get angry or aggressive or whatever. So so we're talking and he's going in on all this stuff. And then I finally asked him I'm like listen, man. Like have you ever listened to my sermons? Like is there something that you've heard me say that that you have issue with? And he's like is there something that you've heard me say that you have issue with? And he's like no. I was like then how do you know that what you're saying about me is true? Like you're running off saying all this stuff about me, right, and there have been other altercations, but he's saying all this stuff about me to people and he has no idea. And there was another Bible worker online went after me in someone's comments and so I just started messaging like, hey bro, like you know, you're saying this stuff about me, but have you listened to my sermons? Have you been to my church? Like you, you're right across town, you've never talked to me. How can you say these things about me? And he's like, oh, I'm sorry, man, I've never listened, it's just I heard that this was what you were saying and I didn't know. So then we talked it out and, like he was, he was very repentant, um, you know, contrite, but this was the thing. Everyone was just like ramped up on what they were saying, you know, but it was never about me. So it wasn't like Wes, you said this. It was always like, well, love reality saying this, well, wes, don't you know you, you know it's about love reality. It's not about you, right? But then it's very clearly about me.
Speaker 2:So one of the administrators who was was in the background of this, uh, irritating it. He calls me a friend went in between us and, uh, and convinced him to come meet with me privately, and so we had an off the books meeting and, uh, and he would ask me these questions all the time. He's like, you know, do you believe what they believe? And I would tell him like, listen, that's, that's kind of a big question, like give me a specific, ask me specific questions, I'll give you specific answers. But no, I can't say that I a hundred percent believe what they believe, because I'm not even sure that what you're thinking when you say that and what I would be thinking when I answer it are the same thing. I was like so can we get specific? And I'll talk to you specifically about my, my, my theological position. I have no problem answering questions and, and you know, being questioned around this and providing, you know, substance, substantive answers.
Speaker 2:And so I thought that's what this meeting was, was him coming and we were going to sit down and have the conversation and and so I keep trying to talk about my theology. And finally he said he's like I'm not, I'm not interested in your theology, he's like I'm here to save your ministry. And he basically told me that I either needed to, um, resign my directorship because I was a conference director, um, and admit fault that that I was the one who brought love, reality in. And you know, kind of like you know, I acted alone and this was all my fault and therefore I don't feel that I'm. You know I should continue in this conference leadership position because you know I messed up so bad. Um, or you need to leave, cause the only way to save your ministry is one if you'll, if you'll, resign and accept fault for this, maybe I can calm the committee down. Uh, or you need to leave, um to to save your ministry.
Speaker 2:And so the day that I was having that meeting with that Bible worker, I was praying to God. I was like God, what do I do? Like it was just, it was becoming clear that you know that this was coming down to the end of the committee's work, which is all a farce. And um, and I was like God, what do I do? I don't, I don't want to leave.
Speaker 2:We were so happy there, our life was so full and we loved our ministry. We loved our church. We were so happy there, our life was so full, we loved our ministry, we loved our church. We loved our life. We loved our kids' school. We loved our neighbors. It was everything that we had been longing for in our life. Together, lauren and I, we have kids now, and it's what we wanted. It's where we wanted to be the rest of the rest of our life. We would have been happy staying there until we retired, like we were just so complete and I was like I don't want to leave, we don't want to go.
Speaker 2:But it seems like there's the this is coming, and and I don't know what to do. And God said to me um, you can stay and I'll bless you, or you can go and I'll bless you. And and I said, all right, god. And if you've ever heard me talk about, um, discernment, I am not a fan of signs. I'm generally antagonistic towards signs. I don't ask God for signs, we're not looking for signs. So I said, god, you know how I feel about this, but I'm real sorry, I'm going to need a sign. I need some confirmation that this is what, that you mean this, that this is you, like, I believe it's you. But I, I need some confirmation. I need you to send someone today to say these words to me if this was you. And so we have that meeting.
Speaker 2:The guy who came as the, as the mediator for that meeting, as we were leaving, he gets in his car. I'm getting in my car, I'm pulling out and he gets out of his car and he runs over and he goes. Hey, I just want to tell you, I know what you're going through and I want you to know that, whatever you decide, whether you leave or whether you go, God is going to bless you. And so, um, you know, things unfold a little further and we decided, finally, that we were gonna, that we were at least gonna open the door to see if another, if there was other opportunities, if there were another call would come.
Speaker 2:Um, and it's saying still haven't told my church anything about this. My elders, my elders, knew there was some controversy, but they didn't know the full extent of it. But the church doesn't know. Right, I'm just shouldering this all on my own. And uh, and I ended up getting a, you know, an invitation to interview.
Speaker 2:Uh, where I'm at now in Texas, I interviewed with another conference as well. Um, and the week before I'm coming down for my interview, uh, I get up to preach and I just emotionally break, just can't preach, can't breathe, I have anxiety attack, basically on the stage, because I'm about to leave these people that I love and they don't even know that it's coming, and I felt, I felt like I was betraying them. Um, and I didn't know what to do and, um, they didn't know either, right, and I couldn't tell him. I told him a little bit, but not a lot. And then, uh, we go and we interview him, obviously offered the position, I come back the next week and again, I just break and uh, I have this picture of my church as I'm just weeping, everyone around me, just like my ordination. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it was, like you know, in the same space, in the course of like six months, I went from one of the happiest, most fulfilling, proudest moments of my life to one of the proudest moments of my life, so one of the most painful moments of my life and my community's response was the same. And uh, you know, we had to leave, that we had to walk away, um, because I just couldn't bear it. My body couldn't bear it, my, my, my mind couldn't bear it and it was so, you know, it wasn't even and there was nothing I could do, because the whole thing was like love, reality, it's not you, but as soon as the, as soon as they pass the committee's report. Not you, but as soon as the, as soon as they pass the committee's report, which was just a farce, it was a Mickey mouse thing. They, they didn't invite me to executive committee.
Speaker 2:I'm a member, I was a voted member of executive committee. It's inappropriate for them to not invite me to, uh, an executive committee. But they called an emergency executive committee and they did not invite me. I found out about it like the day before and uh, and I asked him. I said why this is inappropriate, like I'm a member of the executive committee. Why are you not inviting me? And they go, well, we're. You know, we're anticipating that it will become a personnel discussion. And on that anticipation that it would become a personnel discussion, you know it would just be easier if you weren't there. If they want to have that discussion. And I was like so this whole time you've been telling me don't worry about this, this isn't about you, it's about love, reality. We got your back and now you're telling me you're holding a secret meeting behind my back and not inviting me because you're planning, you're expecting that there's going to be a conversation about terminating my employment. Fortunately that that executive committee was the night that I had my interview down here in texas. So I had a conflict, so I couldn't attend. But as soon as it was voted, there was a call for myself and t to be fired, to be removed, and that broke my heart because I really cared for these people and they just betrayed me. And I don't think they see it that way. I don't think they can see it for what it is, but that's what it was. It was a betrayal. And so then you know, my church is reeling from this and yeah, so we had to walk away from that life. It was rough man, it was very, very hard on us.
Speaker 2:I think that so often when we talk about the gospel, we talk about freedom in Christ and walking in faith and walking in the Spirit. There's kind of this thing, even if you know, you kind of default to this kind of prosperity angle a little bit, where the expectation feels like if you're really free, if you're really walking in Christ, then even when bad things happen to you, you shouldn't feel it, you shouldn't, you shouldn't wear it. Um, and so I was struggling with that because I was like breaking down, like I'd be up trying to get my son ready for school. And there was one time you know he's, he's five, and I'm trying to to cook him breakfast and I just collapse and I'm just wailing with grief and and the pain of it.
Speaker 2:I'm like hanging over the cat, cause I didn't want to fall on the floor. So I just kind of doubled over the counter. And I'm like hanging over the counter because I didn't want to fall on the floor. So I just kind of doubled over the counter and I'm just hanging over the counter in my kitchen and my son is watching this going. Daddy what's wrong, what is going on, and he can't understand it. And there's this thinking that, well, if this isn't you know, the enemy was on me with this. And I think that we don't know how to deal with with these things because we think like, oh, I shouldn't have been feeling that If I really, if I was really with Christ, like I wouldn't you know persecution is going to come in this world. You will have trouble, but take heart. Right, why aren't you taking heart?
Speaker 1:Who's the ultimate grace preacher? I would say it's Paul, and Paul, under persecution, is like God, I don't like this anymore. He's like can you not do this, please? Can you remove this from me? And God, of course, says his grace is sufficient. Okay, going to take a real quick break from the episode. Yeah, thank you all for seeing how well you are loved and being able to share the love man that is so powerful and so beautiful, and it is a privilege to share these episodes. We love to do it. If you want to partner with us, go to loverealityorg slash give because we want to continue. We want to continue to share this message with the world. We do that through Internet Church. We do that through the podcast Death to Life, dusty Boys. We're out here and the Bible studies. So, please, partner with us, go to loverealityorg slash give and let's keep this thing going. Let's get back to the episode.
Speaker 2:And so we walked through that man and and, uh, it was hard to see the effect it had on my wife, um, you know it was hard to see the effect it had on my son, you know it was hard the effect it was having on me, um, but we tried to make principled, principled choices, right To to, to choose to, to walk in accordance with our values and and what we believe and to not let it make us jaded. Um, and that's been a challenge. You know it's been um right at a year since I ended my time with the Oklahoma conference. It was June 30th, was my last Sabbath, and on my last Sabbath there were 16 people that got baptized and chills.
Speaker 2:11 of them were re-baptisms and I made the appeal because people were asking me were re-baptisms. And I made the appeal because people were asking me about re-baptism and I've said this on internet church and people always get freaked out about it, but I try to talk people out of re-baptism. But people were asking me about it and so I told him. I said look, if, if you feel that over the last couple of years that you've learned something new about God that has fundamentally changed how you relate to him and you know that you're never going to be the same and you are absolutely confident in who you are, in him and what he has done for you, then you know, come and talk to me and we can talk about rebaptism. And so many people came up and said you know, that's me Like everything has changed. Everything has changed, um, and it's such a special, special last Sabbath, to be able to to baptize, re-baptize, uh, so many people who were had received freedom, right To see the fruit of that was such a gift, um, and so we moved. What?
Speaker 1:was your final, like your final message, like your last thing that you wanted them to leave them with.
Speaker 2:Um, if I'm being honest, I don't remember.
Speaker 1:It's probably just like how much you loved him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was that and and you know that, you know, I, I stand by by what I taught them, you know, and sometimes we have to suffer, and it's not what I wanted. I didn't want to leave them, but it's what it is. And I really, I really struggled with it because it's like, oh, my church isn't running me out. They fought for me. 100% of my members showed up for the meeting with the conference. 100% of them showed up to to advocate for me and beg them to reverse it, to undo it, to bring me back. You know, um, and so it was weird because I was like I'm leaving not because my church doesn't want me, but because these other other people don't want me and they don't even know me. And then I realized, well, that's pretty much how I went for Paul. It wasn't, it wasn't the people who were down with Paul that were running him out of town and stoning him and beating him and, you know, throwing him in jail. It was the people who didn't like what he was saying.
Speaker 1:It was trying to keep people from hearing it and it was the old people who he used to run with. Yeah, or the idea of traditionalists, the traditionalists. The Pharisees right, the people that were beating Paul weren't Gentiles. Yeah, they were Jews. Yeah. And he used to be just like them. Yep.
Speaker 2:So, you know, coming down here, you know work through was, you know, am I going to be faithful to continue to preach the truth Right? And at first I was relieved that I wasn't going to preach Right, and this is the thing the payoff for that whole conversation about preaching is man, I really miss preaching because now I see when, when you, when you hold preaching with this partnership with the spirit, when, when you hold it as there's one thing that really matters, the proclamation of the gospel and, and you're committed to that, the proclamation of the gospel and, and you're committed to that, that God will use that and it can change lives, it can transform a church Right, and that's exciting, like I want to do that. It's hard for me to not be the one setting the tone Right, and I'm fortunate in that I'm in a good church where, um, you know, we have different language, but we're in agreement about the gospel and what we're preaching and where we're trying to go, and so I'm very fortunate to be working with a team of pastors where there's life and there's agreement around the gospel. But it's been hard for me to not preach right, and so at first I was like, oh, it's a good, I'm not preaching Cause I don't even know if I could do this right now, right, but every time I get up to preach, every time I get ready to talk against Sabbath school or whatever, like I just have to say what I believe.
Speaker 2:Right, I cannot abide in my spirit people putting other people under legalism, under guilt, shame, condemnation. When I hear it, like I just can't hold back and and so, you know, I come in, I'm like, okay, I need to sit back, I need to chill, whatever. And then, like, I just find myself like interjecting, trying to be circumspect, trying to be wise, trying to move slowly to be wise, trying to move slowly, Right, but but just unable to sit quietly. And then I start to discover, like when I'm teaching Sabbath school or when I'm speaking in Sabbath school, like people are leaning in, like they're hungering for this, like they're they're wanting this, and and so it's just really been, uh, uh, an interesting experience of just being okay, just being where God has put me and believing that he's working, and to the point that, like you know, a handful of people now five or six people in my direct sphere of influence, I know have received freedom. Like they, they can express that, that that they have received this thing, that they have found what they've been looking for.
Speaker 2:And, uh, there's this one guy that that I was studying with and was teaching him to pray and to listen to God and to discern God's voice, and and, um, he, you know, a few weeks later we were in Sabbath school and he was talking and he's like, he's like, you know, he, few weeks later we were in Sabbath school and he was talking and he's like, he's like, you know, he's like something that's really changed my life, as pastor West told me, taught me how to to, you know, hear God's voice and believe that he loves me, and it just changed everything in my life. And and so, getting to see that, like you know, god was, you know God was faithful, and bringing me here that there's, there's a work to do for the gospel here, and and and. So I go back and forth because, well, maybe, maybe, my work there was done and God was so gracious I'm not going to talk about how gracious he was to my church because I don't want to, I don't want to cause any problems for them, but he was so gracious to my church and, um, and that gave me encouragement because of what he did for them. Uh, after I left, and, and, and so I, I I tried to hold on to these things and be like, well, there's a work for me to do here, and maybe, maybe that's why it was time for me to go. There was no more I could do there and God needed me here. And I don't I don't think I agree with that because he said you can stay and I'll bless you, or you can go and I'll bless you.
Speaker 2:And so I've been struggling with this, you know, for the better part of the last year. And and then, just a few months ago, um, in my, in my quiet time, um, god said remember, remember, when I told you that a dark night was coming? And it's like, here it is and we're through it. But you thought you were already through it and so you missed it, right? And once I realized that God had been with me, because during that time, up until a couple months ago, god felt very distant, right, because during that time, up until a couple months ago, god felt very distant, right, I knew, because of the way that I preach and the way that I teach, I knew that God was moving, because I was seeing the evidence of the Spirit in the hearts of people around me.
Speaker 2:Because I don't believe that I'm an eloquent speaker, I don't believe that I'm that great at constructing arguments, right. I depend wholly on that. God is going to use what I give Him and he's going to do something right. I depend wholly on that. God is going to use the what I give him and he's going to do something right. And so I'm seeing evidence of God moving in and around my ministry here, but yet, at the same time, I'm feeling so distant from him, so cut off. Hmm, um, my, my quiet time is not the way that it used to be, where I would just sit in in his presence and be aware of his presence, like none of that was happening, like I felt like I was just going through the motions, right, but yet I was. I was able to still see evidence of the spirit moving as a result of the motions that I was going through, and so I just kind of held onto that. And then, and then he, he finally, just you know, brought that to my mind like, hey, like this was the dark night, this was the dark night, and, um, you know, and the interesting thing in this is, and you know it's it's.
Speaker 2:It's been an interesting journey for me to see how my journey affects my wife, my wife's journey, and even even leading up to her receiving freedom. Right, and she talked about this in her episode. She was asking me, like how do I know if I'm free? I'm like you'll. If you don't know, then you're not free, right, like, but I'm not the one, like I kept telling. I was like I'm not the one that can lead you through this, right, just the dynamics of our relationship, not a negative thing, she just needed another voice.
Speaker 2:But yet, as I go, couple to see that you know the change in her once I was able to kind of receive this and that it seems like the weight has lifted on her a bit, because the weight has lifted off of me and we're actually able to move forward together more uh in this now. And you know, um, yeah, god has been faithful, he's, he's blessed us, we're right, and he told me, he reminded me of that again the other day. You know, yeah, god has been faithful, he's blessed us where we're at. And he reminded me of that again the other day. I was a few months ago. Right before that moment, I told Lauren. I was like you know what? How about I just quit my job and we'll move back to Oklahoma and I'll just become like a real estate photographer or something, and we'll go back to the life that we we loved and we miss, and uh, and we'll just go back.
Speaker 2:And then God was like didn't I tell you, you know cause? I was feeling like I had messed up by leaving, like I'd made the wrong decision. And God was like I told you, whichever way, I was going to bless you. So you didn't make the wrong decision, you just made the only decision you could make and I'm faithful, right, and I think that you know.
Speaker 2:Just to kind of maybe put a bow on this.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you have anything you want to dig into or follow up on, but at the end of the day, I think that that's ultimately what God is looking for in us is that whatever comes right, good or bad, he's not the one who causes it.
Speaker 2:It happens Sometimes he feels distant, sometimes he feels close, but are we going to just persist with him? Are we going to choose to move by faith, even when we can't feel it, when we can't see it, when everything seems to go wrong? Are we going to choose to move by faith Even when we can't feel it and we can't see it, when everything seems to go wrong? Are we going to move by faith in the midst of that? And it doesn't have to be pretty, because, god knows, the last year was not pretty. If you could see behind the curtain of myself, my wife, my family, um, you know, as we've tried to process coping with all of this, it has not been pretty, but yet it was the process and God was with us and he has been faithful and, and here we remain, and we're more confident now of what we believe than we were when we began.
Speaker 1:I think um. First of all, I hate this, but I know you're in good company. I think of who is it, elijah, that he's on the top of Mount Carmel and he does all of this thing and he's got to take off running right.
Speaker 1:He runs off in the wilderness and he goes through depression and god has to whisper to him in a cave. You look at paul we just mentioned. We think of jesus, we think of all of these bible characters samson I mean you think of you go down the list and all of them have felt a certain way and they knew better, but they still felt terrible. And I think about the stages of grief, right, what is the last one is like acceptance.
Speaker 1:It's so hard to accept things sometimes because we've been resisting it happening, and so I've often told the story of when I was losing my job. I thought God told me that I wasn't going to lose my job, but I just, I just didn't want it to happen. I was resisting it so bad. And then there's this thing that happens at the end of it and hopefully people can come around us and love on us that we accept what's happened, like, yeah, this happened and it was very, very difficult, but he never left me and he's made me and not broken me through this and it wasn't fun, and yet I'm stronger and I think about specifically you and I've seen your good works and I'm glorifying your father in heaven and some of them are like obvious things, like some of the people that have come to understand who they are in Christ.
Speaker 1:I had somebody the other night that you had ministered to, who was in a moment of distress going to do something stupid, but didn't do that stupid thing and actually reached out because of the gospel they had heard and that's a testament to your ministry to them and that's a testament to your ministry to them the 15 people that were baptized. And then maybe one day the whole story will come out and we haven't been able to share the whole story, but how God took stuff that looked terrible and flipped it around for other people, that is like what, like he did that, that's crazy. And then I hope you don't forget the stuff that's happened while you were in Texas that you and I've talked about. It seems like you were in the exact right spot for the conversations that you've had, and so I have seen your good works and I glorify God. This thing is making you, it's not breaking you, and when we accept all of this stuff, we're like, yeah, this happened, it was terrible, and yet God is still good and God loves me and it's okay for me to cry my eyes out and it's also okay for me to not be broken, broken. And yeah, man, god, yeah, god's faithful and your belief in that is has been leading the way and we've all seen it. And no, man, you're a testimony.
Speaker 1:And last thing, like there is a testimony episode, one great testimony, man, what's the story? You go back, you hear a herald story, my second episode where I talk about getting fired. That's the one I go and listen to when I want to be encouraged. Like my first one, it's just a lot of death, it's just like dag Rich. But the second one, like your whole church gathering around you. That's the stuff that you're like, man, god, that's the humbling thing. Like I'm sure you baptized a lot of people before you were walking in freedom, but I bet those 15 hit kind of different. Yeah, yeah. And so, yeah, man, you're a blessing to all of us, you're a testimony to all of us and it's not like we're going to come out of something. This thing has just now built us, and I don't know if this might be my favorite. It's that old Mexican proverb.
Speaker 1:It said they tried to bury us but they didn't know we were seeds, Like they can't stop you now, bro, who's who's going to stop you now?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I think that's the the thing that I hope that I'm more settled in. I don't want to, you know, be like, come off as prideful or arrogant, but, um, you know, I'm only more established in the fact that I'm going to keep saying what has changed my life. And, you know, I'm only more established in the fact that I'm going to keep saying what has changed my life. And, you know, next time I might just write it into the ground, you know, because I'll know, you know, but as long as it's still transforming me and changing my life. And this is the thing man like not to get us back into this.
Speaker 2:But this, this crazy accusation, right that that what, what we're saying when we say that you're free from sin, is that you can just sin and then you can just live however you want to do, and and nothing has to change. And it's like and I told someone one time in the midst of all this, I was like. I was like I have never been part of a community that is going harder in the paint to be transformed into the image of Christ than the people in this community. We hunger for the character of Christ to be revealed in our life. It's just the way we go about it is that we actually support one another and lift each other up, and we don't condemn people for not being good enough. We remind them that Christ has died for them and that he has already given them the victory.
Speaker 2:So walk in it Right. And and this is crazy because you know, I, when I was, when I was rolling with the, with the, with the legalistic crew I can't tell you how many people I went to to talk about my struggle with pornography and the response was the same every time oh brother, I don't know anything about that, but you got to do something about that, you got to fix that right. Statistically, it is not possible that every man that I talked to about that didn't have that problem, right?
Speaker 1:So I don't know what you're talking about. Friend of mine.
Speaker 2:but the result was but then you come into this and this is just so on the nose right, but it's like so big and it's so pervasive. But this is the thing, like there is there is no, there's no, no one who wants to be left in sinful behavior. There's no one who is encouraged to stay in simple behavior. The difference is is that we pick each other up and we point them to Christ and we say you've already been given the victory, so walk in it. Right, he's done this already for you.
Speaker 2:And and it's just, people look at me and go. Well, what I hear them saying and it's like can we, you know? So I, I, it's just, it's emboldened me all the more now to just keep saying it and to be on this side of it now and seeing it still transforming people's lives and delivering people from from hopelessness and drugs and other things, because all of a sudden they've had someone tell them that God loves them. They've learned how to hear God tell them that he loves them and it changes their life, them, that he loves them and it changes their life.
Speaker 1:If you could go back and not learn about like you get a chance, you don't have to take the red pill, you get to take the blue pill and just not know anything about freedom from and six freedom from sin. And none of this would have happened and you'd still be. Would you make that choice to to pick the blue pill?
Speaker 2:Uh, oh, no, no, no, no, but Lauren asked me this question the other night Would you make that choice to pick the blue pill? Oh, no, no, no, no. But Lauren asked me this question the other night, something similar to that. And you know, I find just in my personality and the way that I approach things and this is kind of some of my neurodivergent way of seeing the world that I find myself at odds with people. And it's always been this way, like even before I was a Christian. Right that sometimes, even though with the purest of intentions in my heart, people take me as wrong right as, like I'm, I'm doing something wrong, and it's usually just a reflection of what's in them. And so we were talking about like, well, what would this have been like? Like I, probably, if I had been in pastoral ministry, you know, I probably would have run-ins with the organization just because I think differently Right, always have, and so I probably would have ended up in some similar situation. What would the difference have been? What difference did the gospel make in that? And the difference is is that I'm hurt, obviously, and relationships are broken and I'm frustrated by that, but I have not descended into anger, I have not descended into. Just you know, woe is me Like I haven't become embittered by the experience.
Speaker 2:But if I had not received this gospel, if I had taken the blue pill and just woken up in my bed and believed whatever I wanted to believe, I know that I would, just I would. I wouldn't know what to do with this. I would be bitter, I would be angry, because that's when I didn't get called to mission before I met Jonathan, like right before I met Jonathan in Idaho I graduated from from college. It's culmination of all this time you, this time I'm going to be a pastor, I want somebody to be a pastor and I don't get a call.
Speaker 2:And I became embittered, I was angry and I started making decisions to slam the door shut. I started doing things intentionally. I became self-destructive towards the goal that I wanted Because I didn't get what I wanted when I got it. That's the difference that the gospel has made for me, tangibly in this situation, is that I've endured. It's painful, but yet it has not overcome me. It has not made me bitter, it has not made me hateful, it has not made me spiteful. Right, that's the difference it has made.
Speaker 1:Amen, bro.
Speaker 2:Thanks for coming on for part two, yep yep, see if I can survive with my job thanks, man.