Death to Life podcast
A podcast that tells the stories of people that used to be one way, and now are completely different, and the thing that happened in between was Jesus.
Death to Life podcast
#230 Doug Wilson, From Big Franks to Big Faith: A Spiritual Journey
Doug Wilson shares his journey from legalistic striving to gospel freedom, revealing how discovering his identity in Christ transformed his understanding of salvation and relationship with God. The conversation explores the damaging effects of a "Jesus plus" mentality and the liberation that comes from resting in Christ's finished work.
• Born and raised in Oklahoma with minimal church background
• Initially approached religion as a set of doctrines rather than a relationship
• Spent a decade as a church elder trying and failing to live up to legal standards
• Left church completely for two years after burning out spiritually
• Discovered through a new pastor that the gospel offers complete freedom
• Found his true identity in Christ rather than in religious performance
• Now views the Sabbath as resting in Christ's salvation rather than as a legal requirement
• No longer judges others but sees them as people Christ loves
• Learned that we can be honest about our anger while still responding in love
• Encourages others that "the fight's already been won" through Christ.
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The world doesn't think that the gospel can change your life, but we know that it can and that's why we want you to hear these stories, stories of transformation, stories of freedom, people getting free from sin and healed from sin because of Jesus. This is Death to Life.
Speaker 2:And he started sharing this gospel message and he kept showing me scriptures, and every time he would show me something, I would look at it and I'd go yeah, but Right, that's what I kept doing, over and over, yeah it says that, but you still got this, this and this.
Speaker 2:And he would answer every one of these, every one of those objections that I would try to put that, yeah, but you still got to do this and you still got to do that. And I just kept adding to it and he just kept going no, doug, listen, it's this. And he would answer every single one of them.
Speaker 1:And I was just like I don't know if I can believe this or not. Welcome to the Death to Life podcast. My name is Richard Young and today's guest is keeping in line with our Oklahoma theme. He is from Oklahoma, where the wind comes sweeping down the plains, it is Doug Wilson, and I've been hearing about Doug and I met him when I was in Oklahoma last year, but just hearing his story today was super powerful. He has a heart for the Lord and this gospel's changed his life and it's amazing what happens when we just get out and preach this truth and hear it, and they're changed, and those changes change other people.
Speaker 1:Um, shout out to audrey, who you know, you'll hear in the story. Her testimony was big for doug's life and so doug is walking in the spirit. He's, uh, free from and dead to sin, and you'll love his story Without further ado. This is Doug. Buckle up, strap in Love. Y'all, appreciate y'all. All right, doug, we've been waiting for years for the story. Man, where are we starting? Man, who are you? Where are you from? Is that a Norman poster behind you?
Speaker 2:That is. That is the OU Stadium. Yes, sir, born and raised right here in Oklahoma. I always tell people that I was brainwashed early by my mom on being an OU Sooner fan. She was a diehard fan from the 50s when Bud Wilkinson was the coach and stuff and yeah, there was no other way that I was going to be but an OU Sooner fan. So grew up going to games with her for a long time and stuff.
Speaker 1:There's a lot worse fan bases to be a part of. Oklahoma's got a proud tradition and so, yeah, I think that's a good choice. So you're born and raised in Oklahoma? Yeah, tell us a little bit more about that growing up.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I was thinking about this. My childhood was pretty good. We did go to church when I was real little. The older I got, and especially after my parents' divorce when I was about third grade, it turned into just special occasions, holidays. Every once in a while we'd go and then it slowly started fading away from that and once I got to a point, an age where I could tell Mom, I'm not going, I didn't go anymore. So I didn't have a lot of like church background, a little bit here and there, some Sunday school stuff, some VBS, but I really didn't have much of an upbringing there. And, like I said, once I hit about 13, 14, I was like Mom, I'm not going anymore. So I just I didn't go at all.
Speaker 1:But what was her faith background? I'm sorry. What was her faith background? What was her faith background? I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:What was her faith background? She was raised in the Methodist church. My grandmother actually was in the I guess it was United Brethren and they merged with the Methodist at one time or something and she always said she was United Brethren. She never would claim she was a Methodist, but she actually had some preaching, credentials and stuff. So she was big time into it. And my mom, you know she was raised in the church, played the church piano for years. I had an uncle that was actually going to be a pastor at one time but when my grandfather had an affair with a woman in church and left, he was done with church. So that kind of shattered his. But you know, my mom, she tried to take us and then, like I said, we just kind of got out of the habit of it. We didn't go every week and it was just more of a go on Christmas, mother's Day, easter, that kind of deal, more of a go on Christmas, mother's.
Speaker 1:Day, easter, that kind of deal, all right. And so then at some point you're just like yeah, I'm good, I'm good with this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it didn't have anything for me. I didn't think it had anything at all for me at all. No-transcript. When I was 16, I worked in a grocery store and the meat manager kept talking to me about God and I don't know if it was just like peer pressure or finally, just hey, just leave me alone, but yeah he led me through the sinner's prayer one time back in the back room and but it didn't really stick.
Speaker 2:It didn't move me Right. It was just, I think I just did it to leave me alone. But as I look back now I think no, that was God trying to get my attention right through all these different ways. Maybe I don't know. So I met a girlfriend there when I worked at the store. We dated for four years. She went to a Baptist church. I would go to things with her, but again, it didn't really move me or do anything for me at all, just attended because she went. After we broke up in college.
Speaker 2:That's when I kind of hit my more of a what you would say wildlife, started sowing my wild oats, as they say right, went partying, drinking, just whatever it could be, I think, over time, growing up back then there wasn't, you know, internet, obviously, for me, right. So anything that you saw from women were just in TV shows or movies, maybe some magazines and stuff like that. But women definitely became just an object for me, right, just to see what I could get, and then just party, party, party for a while. And then I met my now wife in the grocery store as well that I was working at and that changed all my attitude towards women a little bit. There Started realizing that they were more than that, because I started falling in love with her. She was going to a non-denominational church, though she wasn't really consistent, but she would go. She loved listening to Christian music at the time so I started to listen to some of that in the 80s Amy Grant, that kind of early stuff like that. So after we dated for a while, she started getting more serious about going to church more often. I would start going with her, but it wasn't again. It just I think it was just going just to be with her. Right it was. It wasn't anything that was moving me. I didn't have any relationship, it didn't mean anything to me. It was just hey, she's going, I'll go with her.
Speaker 2:So shortly after we were married, so shortly after we were married, her parents who were going to that church as well, and they had some friends that were not happy. They felt like something was moving and they saw an advertisement for a Revelation seminar coming to one of the convention centers in Oklahoma City. So they all decided to go to it and it was led by a guy by the name of Gerard Deese. I don't know if you've ever heard that name or not, but they were just floored by it. So them and another couple became Seventh-day Adventists. The other couples thought it was a cult and went back to the other church and I can remember a lot of those people were giving Pam a lot of scriptures and information that that was all cultish and stay away from them and don't do any of that. So she was really worried about her parents, her mom and her stepdad. But her brother eventually took some studies and he joined the church. So then Pam did.
Speaker 2:I never really got into the church at all.
Speaker 2:I mean, I would attend sometimes with them, but I wasn't really any kind of full-time member or anything like that.
Speaker 2:While they were going to church there.
Speaker 2:And I can just remember one day very plainly her and her mom were trying to talk to me about the Sabbath and different things and I just flat out told them I said look, if I had really joined you and started going to this non-denominational church, I'd be wrong again.
Speaker 2:So when you guys decide what's right and what you're going to settle on, come to me and let me know, because this is ridiculous, because I wasn't going to church and if I'd started going there I'd be wrong again. You know, I was like this is just all silliness, is what I thought, because I really did think that the Bible was just a bunch of stories, good lessons, right, my whole background, as I said earlier, you know a little bit of some Sunday school and I was real little some VBS program, but not a whole lot of background there. So my whole education on the Bible is from watching the movie the Ten Commandments with Charlton Heston. Right, that was the extent of my knowledge of the Bible, and if it was anything about end time it was because I watched the movie the Omen about the Antichrist and how he was coming.
Speaker 1:So Mercy, not great. Yeah, no, what is it? Satan is the kid in that movie, or something like that. Yeah, no, yeah, not great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, he's born as a kid and yeah, dad tries to kill him and everything. Yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 1:Mercy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that was the extent of my Bible knowledge. So anyway, long story short, they would get up and go. My wife would get up and go to church with my daughter. We only had one daughter at the time, my oldest, and she would just give me this look like Dad, why aren't you coming with us?
Speaker 2:I don't understand why you're just staying home, because every Sabbath morning I would just stay home and I'd mow the yard, or I'd go play tennis with my friend, or, during football season, we'd go to an OU game and that's all we did. Right, I was like I'm not going to church on Saturday. This is ridiculous, but something. The way my daughter looked at me, the way that she would talk afterwards about how much fun she had at Sabbath school and stuff I thought maybe I need to check this out. And so I started to go with them and they had a—this church that we started at was—they would do—once a year they'd go on a camp out at a lake around Oklahoma where they would just spend the whole weekend, and I went on that. My first experience was that first night there they had a big weenie roast.
Speaker 1:And so I had my first experience with a Big Frank, which I thought was the most disgusting thing I ever put in my mouth. I don't know how you feel about it now, but I think it is disgusting and I'm team Vegalink all the way, vegalink's forever.
Speaker 2:Yes, I did like those better. I still can't eat a Big Frank. I don't know if it's just psychological or whatever. Get them out of here I can't eat one Get them out of here.
Speaker 1:The best way to eat it is to open up the can and then open up the trash can and pour all the Big Frank. I'm probably going to lose listeners. For those of you guys who love Big Franks I'm just kidding Love them too, Sorry.
Speaker 2:My girls could open a can and just eat them out of it and I'm just like that is so gross kids.
Speaker 1:Oh mercy.
Speaker 2:So anyway, so I went to that and I'm sure it was a setup because they played golf on Sunday morning and I was paired with the pastor, so I'm sure that was all set up. But he was a great guy, Really liked him. And so, yeah, I started taking studies and I read a book. It's an old red cover. It's called All in the Name of the Lord. I don't know if you knew that book, but it was about the Sabbath and the change and stuff. And I mean I started learning so much stuff.
Speaker 2:I was like what is all of this? I didn't know that the Bible actually fit together, that it wasn't just a bunch of random stories, that it actually started in Genesis and went all the way to Revelation and was connected and everything went together right. And I was just blown away by all of this and I didn't think about it at the time. But when I look back after being there for a few years, I came in on strictly doctrines and finding some truth. There was no relationship, no Jesus at all taught to me. It was just hey, here's the truth, here's these doctrines, and I was blown away by them and I couldn't believe that, like I said, the Bible was true, but that's all I had. I didn't have that relationship at all.
Speaker 2:And so, you know, going to church became a deacon, then I was head deacon. Then, you know, you become an elder, you know, just like the regular standards. But I was just living a work-filled, legalistic life. I mean, I was trying to keep up with all these things that I thought I had to do and after about 10 years of that and not being able to keep up with it, feeling like a failure, like I can't do this because I just keep messing up, I keep doing the same things over, I keep, you know, not living up to what I know I need to do. I just went, I can't do it, so why am I doing it? And so I left the church. I said I'm done, I'm not going to do this anymore. I stopped going, and this was probably about two years I did this. I was out of the church completely, didn't go, Started going back to some OU football games and just doing what I wanted to do.
Speaker 1:Can we talk about that for a second? Yeah, if you're in, when I used to be maybe on the legalistic side, I didn't, you know. Obviously nobody knows that they're legalistic when they're legalistic I haven't met one legalistic person that knows it. But when you're out of it you can see, oh, I was when I was maybe towards that side.
Speaker 1:I used to look at people like say, like you, that would go to the OU game and I would be like they're just not tough enough, they just don't get it. They're just not tough enough, they just don't get it, they're just not about it. And from, what you're saying is like the church wasn't offering you anything. What if that was true? What if that church that you were at and the message you were receiving was actually just putting more guilt on you? Like what if you weren't getting anything from it? And it was actually giving you guilt, condemnation and shame, because you, like the pastor, would get up and say you got to keep this and you couldn't, like, am I supposed to be mad at you? Like, and even in my life I didn't get it and I wasn't doing it, and then I would be frustrated with myself. So I'd be frustrated with myself. So I'd be frustrated with myself. Then I'd be frustrated with other people who would leave, because well, they're just not tough enough.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh yeah. No, definitely I was. I was extremely judgmental of people during this time period, even though I wasn't living up to it. I was looking at other people and going, well, you're not even doing what I'm trying to do, right, You're not keeping up with me? I would look at people and think, how are you going to make it in the end time when we don't have an intercessor, if you can't keep it going right now? Right, that's what I looked at and that's what I looked at other people, Somebody who went out to eat on Sabbath. I'm like, well, you're never going to make it in the end time because when they force you to not buy or sell, you're not standing for it now. You're not going to stand for it in the end. There's no way you're making it. And then you run out of steam yourself, yeah, and then I ran out of steam, yeah, and you do yourself, yeah, and then I ran out of steam, yeah, and you do. You start as I was running.
Speaker 2:It wasn't like it was like one day I woke up. It was like you know, over a period of the last two or three years of going to church, I was like this is just not working. And if I can't do it, why am I doing it? I might as well just go back to my old life and where I was having fun, supposedly right, Because I can't keep up with it, I'm not going to do it, so I'm not going to make it, so just give up and quit. So I did that for about two years. But one scripture that kept coming back to me during that time period was when some of the followers left and Jesus turned to his disciples and said are y'all going to leave too? And Peter was like where are we going to go? There is nothing else, right. And so for two years of doing, running around back into my old life, thinking that was the way to go, I was like, no, I'm even more miserable now. This is not working. It is not working.
Speaker 2:So I found a book and I was listening on it. I'm a big, huge music fan, so I love listening to music, and I would listen to a lot of Christian music at the same time. And there were just some songs that just started hitting me and I went man, this is more about a relationship, it's not about these doctrines, right? I needed to get to know who Jesus is and what he was doing and what he's all about, but I didn't have any really like good direction. To be honest, to go. There wasn't anybody in the church we were attending that could help me navigate that. You know what I'm saying, Because they were more in that legalistic kind of way. They were all still trying to work their way.
Speaker 2:But I would try to read and I would try to find some things and I would try to study and I would find some information, but then I would it's hard to say how to express this. It's hard to say how to express this. I would read that I was dead to sin or that. I would read that I'm free from sin, but I would always go. That's great. However, I still need to, and I would add stuff to it. Yes, I'm free, yeah, I'm away from it, but I need to still continue to do these things. So I had a mixed bag of being free and away from sin, you know, dead to sin, but I still was putting things on that that I had to do. In addition to it was Jesus plus.
Speaker 1:I think that's the you know. In college we would talk about our old Bible teachers and God bless our old Bible teachers. They were doing their best, but they would say you don't keep the law to be saved. But if you're saved and you're not keeping the law, you will be lost. And you're like wait what? Like your last part of the sentence just disregarded the first part of the sentence.
Speaker 1:But I felt like in our faith tradition, in our background, that's how you had to say it. Yes, because there was so much importance on this and if I mean, let's just say it is the fourth commandment, there was so much importance on that that we had to be able to highlight that because we didn't understand our relationship to the law. And so these beautiful teachers, these beautiful people in the church, they wanted to highlight the gospel as best they could without it taking away from the law. And so they're playing this balancing act where they're trying to. I remember hearing someone say, yeah, it's all about balance, and I'm just like the gospel is so unbalanced. It's everything that Jesus Christ has done.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But when you're trying to play that balancing game, it's a double-minded, it's a mixed gospel that doesn't have the actual power, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, absolutely yeah. You said it so much better. I mean, that's exactly what I was feeling. Yeah, I'm not saved by the law, but I got to keep it and I got to still do it. So I was wrestling back and forth, and back and forth and the church that we were attending was still more towards just keeping the law. That's all it was.
Speaker 2:And as an elder and then I was the head elder I preached a lot because, you know, pastor had more than one church and we even went down and covered his other church that he had, sometimes because they didn't have enough people, enough people to speak. So I was preaching every month, and sometimes twice in a month. And I look back through my sermons and I'm like the very first one I ever preached was so legalistic. And then, as I can see that growth and I'm like I look back at some of them, I'm like, well, this was kind of going that direction, but then you turned it right back. Like you said, I just turned it right back, but you still got to do this, this and this.
Speaker 1:Safety. You got to be safe. You can't let the kids know about grace.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So I was feeling restless again. This was the second Adventist church that we attended and I was like I'm just I'm feeling this again, that something's not right. And I was talking to my wife and she's like I'm not happy either. I just don't. You know, it's just kind of an old, dead church, it's not doing anything. So we were talking about maybe starting to look for a new church.
Speaker 2:And about that same time as we got out and kind of visited a couple others and stuff like that, her mother had a stroke and she had to come live with us for about nine months or so and we just stopped going completely, I mean because we didn't want to leave her home alone. Right, she couldn't do anything, so we were there constantly with her. So we just stopped going to church completely for probably about eight months or so, just taking care of her and different things like that. And then some circumstances happened and she actually went to live with her brother, pam's brother, for a while, so then we could get back into church. And so that's when we found we went to Moore, to Hope, to Hope Adventist Fellowship, and at the time I think Mike has mentioned him and stuff Pastor Kevin was there and he was definitely much more gospel-focused and the people there were just so great, so loving, so welcoming, made some good friends quickly there. It was fantastic for the family and stuff, and so I was getting more gospel message and I could feel the change coming and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:And then Kevin left and then the one that everybody knows, wes, came in and I was the head elder at the time when Wes came in and Kevin had told me before he goes, you're going to love this guy, he is so good.
Speaker 2:And then he told me a few people in church they're not going to like him and I was thinking, okay, I know, I see where you're going right, some of the ones that were more conservative, if you want to use that word right, and sure enough, I mean, it happened exactly like that. But I can remember Wes coming in and us having conversations and he started sharing this gospel message and he kept showing me scriptures and every time he would show me something I would look at it and I'd go, yeah, but Right, that's what I kept doing over and over. Yeah, it says that, but you still got this, this and this, and he would answer every one of those objections, that I would try to put that yeah, but you still got to do this and you still got to do that, and I just kept adding to it and he just kept going no, doug, listen, it's this. And he would answer every single one of them and I was just like I don't know if I can believe this or not.
Speaker 1:I was so just worried that it was like that, when it sounds like it's too good to be true or like cause. I'm imagining that Wes was offering something like really great that you have it now. And what's the danger back then in your mind?
Speaker 2:That it was a once saved, always saved. You can just do whatever you feel, like you're just throwing the law out, just throwing it out. You don't have to do it anymore, right, okay. And I was like, yeah, no, it's not a—there's this— because I think we've always—I think we've been taught in the Adventist church that like once saved, always saved, is like this evil doctrine that just will destroy you and you'll be lost forever if you get into that bandwagon. Right?
Speaker 1:And not that you can't. We're trying to keep the people in line. We're trying to keep the people in line as we can. And if we throw out the parameters, then it's bedlam to use an Oklahoma word. That's right. Yes, If we throw out the parameters, it's bedlam to use an Oklahoma word. That's right, yes.
Speaker 2:If we throw out the parameters.
Speaker 1:It's bedlam.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and not that you can't walk away from it right, and reject it and no longer be. But yeah, you can't. It's not an up and down. You don't have it one day and go on the next day. You know that's not how you live your life and it's a horrible way to live your Christian life if you're always worried that, well, tomorrow I could screw up and now I'm not saved. I just did this and now I'm not saved.
Speaker 2:Now taken back, like maybe this is one of those new light things that we're warned about, that are going to come in the end time, that are going to shake the church and get people out of it. Right, and I was just like this can't be. And I'm going to be honest because then he had. You came down and there were a lot of people that came in to visit, you know, that are part of the love reality, that have been a part of Internet churches like that. They all came in. It was part of our evangelistic thing, right to try to bring people that are attending Internet church, but maybe, you know, haven't been inside a building in a while, so it was part of a thing to maybe try to get some new people and some people that were listening, and I remember hearing a lot of what you said and what a lot of people were talking about. I'm like man, this just sounds too good to be true. And I'm going to be honest, because then I started thinking these people are just too happy, they have this little. It was almost like you guys had this little separate language, how you would talk, and it just kind of threw me back a little bit right. I was like I'm not sure about this, this just doesn't seem real, it doesn't seem right somehow still. But I could not deny some of the stories that some of the people shared their testimonies. Some of the stories that some of the people shared their testimonies. I could not deny how just, free and loving and how they just weren't burdened by anything right. The evidence was there that I was like there's got to be something to this. There has to be. So it was just continually to read.
Speaker 2:Listen to wave one. I listened to part of it. I was getting into wave two, still talking to Wes a lot, trying to understand, trying to see what I was still missing. Why was I not grasping this and I know you had on a couple of weeks ago because I listened to it when I was driving. I travel for work a lot, so I'm always driving a lot between customers and stuff like that, so I have a lot of time to listen to Wes's podcast and I listened to some of the death to life podcasts. I've listened to Micah's and stuff and Wes's obviously, but I listened to Audrey's and he gave her testimony at church and I think that was one of the biggest things for me to listen to her and I would just look at that and I'd go that changed her life 180, I mean right, and I'm like there has to be something to this or it wouldn't be changing people's lives the way it's changing them.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'd listen to her story, I saw how she changed the church. And then there were others right, I mean, there were other people that I was talking to, Micah, who I've known since he was a baby we used to hang out with his mom and dad a lot when I was first in the church, but just to listen and to what they shared and how much this gospel meant and the message, I was like no, there's got to be, there's got to be something to this. It's almost like when I was back at the start, right, my only biblical background basically to me was watching the Ten Commandments. And then I started reading and seeing how it actually fit. And then again I started, you know, but no relationship. And then I started working on the relationship and you started reading scriptures differently. And then, as Wes was sharing and I was reading things and I would get into Romans and I would read and go, man, why did I never see that? It said that before. I've read this several times but I never even saw it.
Speaker 2:And there was one time that Wes did one of his sermons. On that, the victory's been won. It's Jesus did it all. And I sat there going. I preached that same sermon six or seven years ago, and yet it didn't hit me right. I wrote it, I said it, I studied, all of you know, to get the notes to put together, and yet it didn't change me at all. And I'm like, why didn't I had it? I saw it, but I didn't. It didn't change my life, I didn't do anything with it. And then when Wes said it, it just hit, it hit hard. And I was like man, this has got to be true, there's got to be something to this. And so I just kept getting more and more into it.
Speaker 2:And then, of course, there's those that have listened to the podcast and know Wes's story about all the junk he went through. There were things on his last podcast that I didn't even know. I was like what? He didn't even tell me that that he'd gone through, but I knew a lot of it and I was just so mad, so furious at all of it. And then, when he was going to leave on his last Sabbath, I was like I've been baptized, I know, but I thought I've learned something totally brand new. Um, and it's because of him and him sharing, and him just sharing his heart every Sabbath. I mean you could tell he was from his heart. He wasn't just reciting scripture from his heart, he wasn't just reciting scripture. And I was like I got to be rebaptized and Wes has got to do it, Because it was. He changed everything by coming to that church and sharing what he did. And then I understood why. When he was coming because he was out in Western Oklahoma, Like I said, I was the head elder I got a phone call from one of the members out in this old little church in Western Oklahoma.
Speaker 2:He was from begging me to not accept Wes as our new pastor. She was like do not, don't accept him, don't take him, we want to keep you. You know, she was just begging me not to. And I was like man, who is this guy? And then when he was leaving, I was like I know exactly how that woman felt. Now I know exactly how that woman felt.
Speaker 1:Okay, wanted to take a quick break to tell you that we are going to be in Denver September 26 through 28. It is going to be a party. I'm going to be there, jonathan Leonardo is going to be there, justin Ku is going to be there and everybody you love from Denver is going to be there. And if you're not going to be there, I mean I don't know what to tell you. It's going to be a blast. Look out for the registration. It's a month and a half away and it's going to be awesome. So we hope to see you there. Also, we'd love for you to partner with us at Love Reality, loverealityorg. Let's keep this gospel going. Let's keep this movement moving so people can see that they're free from and dead to sin in Christ. That's loverealityorg. All right, let's get back to Doug's episode. So what was at the end of the day? What's the thing that was new?
Speaker 2:that I, that I no longer, and I guess I kind of missed this part of my childhood. When I was growing up I was pretty much a skinny little runt, and I was. I didn't look at it as being bullied, but I guess in today's world and the way people talk, I was probably bullied a lot in school right, called a nerd, called a loser, called all these things, and so that became my identity and I just so every time I'd ever mess up and do something. That's what. That was my identity. So there you go again, doug. You know you're just doing the same thing. That's who you are.
Speaker 2:So I think one of the biggest things that got me was just learning what my identity in Christ is. That nobody else dictates that, nobody else is in control of that, only what Jesus says, who I am in him. That was a biggie for me to learn to just rely on that, no matter what my feelings were, no matter what I was thinking at the time. No, I'm a child of God, I am dead to sin. I am free. This is what he says about me.
Speaker 2:I love to read in Ephesians, first couple of chapters, and just underline all the things that Christ says about me who I am in Him. So that was huge for me to know that identity and then to be free from it all, that even though I couldn't live up to what I thought needed to be done, that I'd been trying to do all my life, that I wasn't condemned Right, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ and that was huge. I mean, you'd heard it before but it was just like but I, you know, you always had that, yeah, but you got to keep doing these things and every time I'd screw up I'm like I'm condemned again. You know I've lost my salvation. So once I got all that, who my identity was, that I was no longer condemned and that I didn't lose my salvation every time I may have messed up on something that was just mind-blowing to me and it was just so beautiful and so freeing.
Speaker 1:This idea that you know the law is holy, it's righteous and good, but it is not laid down for the just, it is laid down for the unrighteous. It is a tutor to bring the unrighteous to the only place they can get righteousness. The Bible so plainly says that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, that if righteousness came by keeping the law, then we wouldn't need Jesus keeping the law, then we wouldn't need Jesus. And so I liken it to a biopsy, where you go get a cancer biopsy and it comes back and it says either you have it or it doesn't. But the biopsy can't heal you. The biopsy can't give life. Like, if it comes back positive and you have cancer, you're going to need chemo, You're going to need something. The biopsy itself isn't going to cure you. And then that's what the law is.
Speaker 1:The law came in to show that we were dead in our sins and transgressions and that we needed life. But the law could not provide that life. Jesus comes and gives us life and so now our lives. It's much deeper than just 613 statutes and commands. It's much deeper than even 10. It's actually love, it's actually laying your life down for somebody where the Torah says don't kill. Jesus's commands are don't hate. Where the torah says don't commit adultery, uh, jesus says don't even objectify or lust after somebody in your heart. It's much deeper than just these statutes that they had at the sinai peninsula.
Speaker 1:And so then, as we live in accordance with the Spirit and Paul says that we've been released from the law, so now we can bear fruit for God. Now we live by the Spirit. What we used to have with those statutes. It looks like it has no glory because of what we have the Spirit that lives inside of us. So you live by the spirit of God and your life looks like it's in harmony with much of the Torah, but it's not because you're living by it. You don't leave your house and check Exodus 20 before you leave. Christ is living through you. You go out and you love the world. You go and love, and I don't think I understood that before. I didn't understand Christ in me. I was just trying to make it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, no, and I have conversations with my wife. One of her favorite parts of Scripture is in John, I think is it 15, the vine Is that 15? The scripture is in John, I think is it 15, the vine Is that 15? She just loves it and she even sometimes still comes to me and says I got to do this and I go no, when you start thinking I got to, you're not doing it for the right motive anymore. You're attached to the vine and it just flows. The fruit just comes and and you're detached and you want to you bear fruit, You'll produce the fruit right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So anytime anybody comes and says, well, no, you've got to read your book, you have to read, you have to do this, you have to go. No, you don't have to. Yes, you want to, but if you start doing I have to, I have to, I have to your whole motivation's off and you're doing it to earn, you're doing it to appease, you're doing it to make you feel better, really, right, I did what I was supposed to do this morning and it's like no, it just comes natural, you just do it.
Speaker 2:And I know that our girls, especially the older two, my youngest, not as bad, because there was a big gap between number two and number three, but they're just like they just blown away. They're just like you guys aren't the same as you were before when we grew up in the church, right, because we had all these do's and don'ts for the kids on Sabbath. You can't do, oh, no, no, that's off limits. We would try to do things that would be fun for them, something like that. But we always, we always had limits on everything. And it's not that we just throw everything out and we just say, whatever you want to do, just go, have fun and do, but it's, it's, but we just have a. I just look at it totally different now, and some of the things I share with them they're just like Dad. That's not what you told us when we were younger.
Speaker 1:You're like, hey, stop talking to me. Like, you bring up Ephesians 2, right, yeah, and Ephesians 2 makes it. It's so beautiful where it explains it and I'm looking for it. I wrote it down. I don't have my Bible right in front of me. I'm looking for it, I wrote it down, I don't have my Bible right in front of me.
Speaker 1:Eight through 10, where he says by grace, you have been saved through faith, and this is not of your own doing. But then it gets to verse 10. And he says that there have been good works set aside for you before the foundation of the world, that you should walk in them. So the problem is not with works. Works are good and we're going to have good works, but we're not having good works to be saved. We're having good works because we are saved, because we are in him. And so if you don't even know that, like if you're going out to do nice things for your wife so you can stay married, that's yeah. Like what if you are married and that's why you do nice things, what? What if you do nice things because you love her rather than you're afraid that she's going to kick you out and have you sign a bunch of papers Like yeah, wouldn't that motive be strange? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I knew the dishes Cause I think I'm going to get. I'm going to get something from my wife about, you know, because I did something nice for her right, or she's going to treat me better because I did certain things. Yeah, that's not the motivation for her.
Speaker 1:That's actually sneaky, that's actually manipulative. It is very right?
Speaker 2:Okay, I don't really want to do this, but I'll do it for her because you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah well, you're not actually doing it from your heart. You're not actually doing it because you love.
Speaker 2:Yeah exactly. And that's what I think we do sometimes. Right, we're going to do all this stuff for the Lord, but we're not really into it, our hearts aren't there.
Speaker 1:So after all of this, Doug, and I just cut you off Did you want to finish?
Speaker 2:No, no, go ahead.
Speaker 1:After what has happened the last year and a half in Oklahoma and you're seeing all of this how do you move forward in love? We have to be honest with ourselves. If a pastor that you love leaves and it hurts, you can't lie and say, oh, it doesn't hurt, I didn't love Wes and I didn't love—like.
Speaker 2:How do you move forward in love? That was very difficult, I will be honest. When it was going down and I would have conversations with the president and I was just getting furious. I was so mad. I was like, well, I'm just about done with all this organized stuff and I'll just start a house church. I mean I was just so mad at everything about what they were doing.
Speaker 2:And it might have been listening to Jonathan one time about, or reading even in his book on forgiveness that we have been forgiven so much that we are to forgive. I mean it's just a natural response back right and it took a while it did, but I just had to let it go and say I have to forgive them because everything's been forgiven of me, all the stuff I've done, then why can't that be forgiven as well? But it was hard and there's still little times. Just last Sabbath the guy was up doing offering and it was for Oklahoma 2% for the conference. He goes do you know all the stuff that the conference does for you? And I leaned over to my wife I said, yeah, they get rid of your pastor.
Speaker 2:Mercy I know and I thought, okay, no, that's not right.
Speaker 1:Well, you know what, you know what. Sometimes there's a place we can be hurt, we can be frustrated, and we can stay open, keep an open heart. We don't have to. It's not that if you're open, then you're not hurt and you're not frustrated. You're not hurt and you're not frustrated. The key is, like Jesus was a man of great great joy and a man of great great sorrow. We can do both. We can be kind and have little children come to us, and then we can also stand up for what we believe in and stay open to the people while we are even frustrated. And so there's this lie that you have to just be a nice guy and just, yeah, okay, fine. And then we just got to ignore all the times where jesus actually called people out for for who they are.
Speaker 1:yeah, now, jesus loved them and he didn't close and he, he was right there, and so, yeah, to deny all this loved them and he didn't close and he was right there and so, yeah, to deny all of this stuff and act like it didn't happen, that doesn't make sense either. So what would love do? Love would absorb it all and stay open the whole time. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, you're right. I mean, that's that learning period a little bit right. You learn to be able to respond in. Like you said, you stand for what you believe and what you feel like was an injustice, but anything you're saying is all said in love and controlled by being in Christ. Let him do it. It's not like you said. You just don't roll over and stuff and say, okay, well, that's just the way it is and I've got to forgive. So I'll just move on, because I feel like you've got to speak up, but you need to do it in love, not out of anger, out of spite.
Speaker 1:How about this? Maybe we can be angry but we don't have to sin. Maybe we can be angry but we don't have to use, we don't have to position other people and it's okay to even say you know what? I'm angry, I'm angry and I love you and I'm angry and I love you and I'm angry and I love you and I'm angry and I love you and I'm angry and I love you. And we can say that to our leaders Love you. You didn't do right here. I love you and I'm angry.
Speaker 1:And that way we're not like suppressing anything that later out it comes, it comes out later and then we're frustrated with how we acted. We can choose to lead with honesty.
Speaker 2:Yeah, amen, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, we're all growing in this man. We're learning.
Speaker 2:Because, yeah, I was more of a and still am to some degree. It frustrates my wife some. I'm more introverted, so I'll hold stuff in, right? I won't always say everything I need to say. Sometimes, and when I was younger and even early in our marriage, I would hold stuff in and then, yeah, just one day I'd just blow right, it all come out at once, right, and that's no way. That's no way to treat other people. It's no way to live. It's not good for you, right, You're just holding stuff in to treat other people. It's no way to live. It's not good for you, right? You're just holding stuff in and it's it's. I think we've learned it.
Speaker 1:It messes with you mentally and physically, right, Holding stuff in so yeah Well, let me ask you this question as, as we wrap this up, let's say you get jump in the DeLorean and you're going back and you're finding this guy who was trying real hard and just lost steam and and realize that this wasn't actually giving life the way he was thinking. You get to. Let's say, you're sitting next to this guy at the football game and it's halftime and you get to put your arm around him. What do you, how do you minister to this guy who? Who's just done with it?
Speaker 2:I would, just one, I think. I would just tell him that you have everything in Christ, that he accomplished it all, he did the work, he paid the debt. He is the one and you rest in him. That's what the Sabbath is all about resting in his salvation, what all he did for you, and that you don't have to work anymore, you don't have to strive. And that you don't have to work anymore. You don't have to strive. There's a song that I listen to quite a bit and it's by Mercy Mean. It says what if I were to tell you that the fight's already been won? Mercy Right. And it says I think your day's about to get better. No-transcript. I said well, that's our first problem. It's striving. You don't strive, you rest in Christ, what he's done for you. You can stop the striving.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if you're going to strive. Hebrews 4 says strive to enter into His rest. Yeah, yeah. So if you're going to strive, be like, how do I just accept that he has done this thing? Let me get like what you were doing. Let me get my mind around this so I can actually rest.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I would just tell you know same thing hey, don't listen to what others. Your identity's in Christ, You're secure in him. Your identity comes from him, Everything comes from him, in Christ, in Christ, in Christ. I think that's what I tell you.
Speaker 1:So now we just now we just get to go out. You tell this guy just get out and love people, man, see them for who they are.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's been one big change that I honestly can say that has come, that I do not look at other people and judge them for anything at all. I just don't. I just love them. But if I think, yeah, you shouldn't do that, I mean I just don't look at people that way anymore. I just look at them as that's another person that Christ loves and wants in the kingdom and I need to be there for them and help them and support them in any other way I can, whatever I can do to help them understand and meet the Jesus that I know.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Jesus had all the time in the world for the sinners, it seems, and he had very little patience for the whitewashed tombs, very little patience for the Pharisees, and he would read them the riot act, and then, with the sinners, he ministered to their hearts. And that's what we get the privilege of doing we stand up for what's right, we go and we make things right, and then we sup with the sinners and say, hey, man, can I tell you what God actually has accomplished on your behalf through Jesus Christ.
Speaker 1:And we just send it that way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Well, doug, thank you for sharing your story. Hopefully I'll get to see you again, maybe when I'm in Oklahoma, and we can just keep telling stories about what God has done.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Amen. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Let me pray. Uh, father, we just thank you that you have changed us from the inside out, that the biopsy came back and showed that we were dead in our sins and transgressions, but then that your son, while we were dead in those sins and transgressions, died for us, gave us life before we turned to him. He turned all the way towards us. So we thank you for his righteousness, his sanctification, his justification and all the spiritual blessings that come with him, in Jesus's name, amen.
Speaker 2:Amen. Thanks, Richard.
Speaker 1:Appreciate you, doug, absolutely.