Death to Life podcast
A podcast that tells the stories of people that used to be one way, and now are completely different, and the thing that happened in between was Jesus.
Death to Life podcast
#232 Jonathan Leonardo: What Happens When Standing for Christ Means Standing Alone?
Jonathan Leonardo returns to share his journey through the challenges of pastoring while maintaining gospel integrity, revealing how institutional pressure led to personal compromise before finding freedom in uncompromised truth.
• Transitioning from evangelist to pastor created tension between preaching clear gospel freedom and meeting denominational expectations
• The Seventh-day Adventist relationship with the law creates unique challenges when preaching freedom from sin
• Public criticism from denominational leadership created real-world consequences for Jonathan and his ministry
• Compromising gospel clarity for job security led to internal dissonance and declining mental health
• The pain of rejection from a church community that had been like a "third parent" was particularly devastating
• Finding freedom required choosing conscience over compromise, even at professional cost
• Despite challenges, Jonathan maintains his Adventist identity while refusing to water down the gospel message
• Moving forward with greater awareness while continuing to preach the transformative power of being in Christ
Join us for Internet Church in the coming months as Jonathan explores living without double-mindedness and dives into seeing the gospel in Leviticus and Hebrews.
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Speaker 2:You start to feel like, oh, the people that loved me and raised me are rejecting me. They're rejecting me because of what Scripture says that you're free from sin, that you're not under the law, that you're in Christ now, that you're sanctified now and to say that goes against the narrative of these people that I love so dearly and I'm being rejected. I'm being actively rejected and it's showing up by way of these online documentaries by online commentators, documentaries by online commentators that now is having in real life impact and effect, because now my church members, who I love dearly, who are great, they have to defend why their pastor is a pastor. The local conference I'm a part of, which I love deeply, and they did their due diligence and were awesome. They now have to defend their conference every time they're a part of the broader divisional community, right, and you know you ask yourself well, what did I do wrong?
Speaker 1:Welcome to the Death to Life podcast. My name is Richard Young and today's episode has been a long time coming. It's Jonathan Leonardo's third time with a standalone episode. Yeah, he's been on the Bible verse draft and a few other things, but we haven't heard from him in some years, just him and catching up, and this story is. It's a lot. God has been working in his life and showing him many things and yet there's also been trials and tribulations and mistakes, and Jonathan is open and honest about all of it and we really get to hear his heart and see how God is moving and guiding and teaching him, and so this is going to be a blessing. It's powerful. Uh, this is Jonathan Leonardo. Buckle up, strap in Love. You guys Appreciate y'all. Okay, it's been a minute, and by a minute. It's been two and a half years. Hold on. Is that three and a half years? Two and a half years Hold on. Is that three and a half years?
Speaker 2:It's 2025. So it was. Was it 22 or 21?
Speaker 1:It was 22. It was February of 2022. It's been three and a half years since we've just had you on here Just to talk about you and a testimony that God has given you. So the first time we had you on, you were telling your story. The second time, we got real nerdy. And now, three and a half years later, but nothing's really happened in these last three and a half years right, I mean no, nothing has happened, bro. Where were you living? You were living in Hawaii. Wait, were you living?
Speaker 1:you were living in hawaii wait, were you living in hawaii three and a half years? Yeah, so yeah, tell us about where. Where were you at, uh, february of 2022, when we last got on here, just you and me?
Speaker 2:yeah, so I would have started pastoring. I would have been three months into pastoring because I got I think I started working December of 21,. Then just had my final like full on LR events that I had to finish up in 22. So, yeah, it was three months pastoring uh, I don't know 10 months married.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you liked it. You're like, um, what are big events in life? Marriage like new job? Let me do all of this moving. Let me do all of this within, like you know, six months of each other and just see what's up yeah.
Speaker 2:And then the wife. We were just a couple months away from finding out we were having our daughter. So cause, yeah, I think yeah, in 22,. We found out what May that Charlie was coming. Then she gave birth to Charlie in.
Speaker 2:February of 23. Yeah, february 5th, 23. Yeah, man, so we were busy. It was a busy time, that that was a busy time and then pastored for that whole duration right up to about april of this year and busy trying to do lr had two churches and raising little charlie and trying to get back to the mainland to see family. And yeah, man, it was was a busy season and then of course you know all the stuff with LR since then. So it was an intense time as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, as we go back to just you starting pastoring, you know we've been doing this LR thing. You've been doing it since 2017. A bunch of us hopped on board right at the pandemic, uh, at the worldwide panty. We all hopped in in this thing and it became something different. Uh, but yeah, 2022. What do you feel like thinking about back then as you're starting pastoring? Like going into be, you know, leading a flock that you had a single eyed vision, or what did you think? Well, like, what was your vision? Like you know, I'm coming from getting off the road and being this evangelist and now I'm trying to do this, what was your vision?
Speaker 2:You know, I just wanted to see how this could play out in a community that I was a part of over the long haul. And that was one concern. But, more truthful, the greater concern was I had a family, I had a wife, we wanted to have children and Love. Reality was stable income in those early years until it wasn't for reasons that we'll probably get into later on in this podcast. But yeah, to have a job, and have a job doing ministry, I thought, hey, why not? And the doors opened up and it was yeah, so I went for it. Basically.
Speaker 1:So I remember when we were all talking about this. We understand that being a pastor and being an on-the-road evangelist are two different things and I'm sure you knew that it's kind of like you hear all this advice about having a kid and hear all this advice about getting married. In that sense, how different was it for you, as starting out, that first year.
Speaker 2:Oh, it was incredibly different because, doing what we were doing with LR, you have a revelation that you're stewarding. A revelation that you're stewarding. You have this ministry that's kind of grown organically and you find a receptive audience that is interested in wanting to hear what you have to say. So then that's why you get the invitations that you do from the churches across the country and in other places. It's like, yeah, come and share with us, share this thing that we've heard you share, we're interested, we want to hear. And so you set up this whole week and it's intense and people hear, and you might have, of course, your peanut gallery full of hecklers that are going back and forth, but that's part of the job and you know to expect it and you have the resources to now actually engage those people in a meaningful and hopefully edifying way.
Speaker 2:But when you come to a church, particularly a church like a Seventh-day Adventist church that has a history and a tradition even though Adventists would like to think that, oh no, we don't have tradition, they actually we absolutely have tradition would like to think that, oh no, we don't have tradition. They actually, we absolutely have tradition. And then you have all of the commitments that are part of the denomination. So when you come in, you have to flow with that current and yeah, cool, you had this evangelistic ministry, but now you have to steward this community in light of the commitments of the greater denomination that require certain features to be repeated and certain ideas to be prominent, prominent and so, instead of being a lead evangelist who is sharing your discoveries, you are correctly now a manager of something that you're stewarding, that precedes you, right? So, like a shepherd, a shepherd is a manager, right?
Speaker 1:so when you're an evangelist, the preaching I don't know what is it 85, 90% of the whole gig, and then there's the 10%. That it's you know, being with the people that you're with, staying at their place and then having conversations afterwards. I don't know if that's the right, how you would take it. What would you say? Preaching is in pastoring. How much is that? The main gig of it?
Speaker 2:oh man, uh, I don't, I don't know because it kind of swings wildly, because if I think about the time of lr, I don't think that the preaching is, uh, it's certainly like the entree, right, but there's so much more to the meal, uh, yeah, people come for the preaching, they stay, hopefully for conviction and community, and you have this intense experience over however long it could be five, seven, usually it was what 11 days that we did, 11 or 12 days, something like that. The pastoring what always comes to mind is Eugene Peterson's framing of pastoring as the long obedience.
Speaker 1:In the same direction.
Speaker 2:Yeah, in the same direction, right, but again, I'm not sure. Eugene pastored in the seventh day. I've been his pastor, so he might have revised yeah, pastoring, there is this revised? Um, yeah, pastoring, there is this. Like I remember one of my seminary teachers was like people come every week and they just he framed it this way he's like you got to give them something that's hopeful, like, leave them with something that's hopeful. People just want to come and hear something that's hopeful, and for me, I'm trying to get people to believe the gospel. So I see a people that may not fully be in alignment with what gospel is Looking for. They're like looking for how do I say this? They're looking for the people in the pew with them to hopefully catch the revelation Does that make?
Speaker 2:sense. And, yeah, man. So, man, this is a good question. Let me put it this way, man, I'm preaching evangelism. People come because they're going to hear what you got to say. Yeah, people that come to church. Some might come to hear you, most come because it's their habit, hmm, interests in your congregation, and to try to steward them all in that one direction is certainly a different challenge than the evangelistic impulse and heart. It's the difference between the founder of a company right, like the founder narrative that goes hard and tries to make stuff happen and is trying to build this company, versus the actual CEO who will come and caretake the company and run ops well, day to day. Like. That's not always the same person and there's a reason why it isn't the same person. Right, there's a reason Steve Jobs got fired from apple once it was up, up and going because that wasn't his strength.
Speaker 1:His strength was ideas and the overall. But it takes maybe a different strength for a guy to come and pull the different levers every day to make yeah, so.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you can say, you know, steve came back once. The thing was, I mean, it needed a lot of help by the time he came, but a lot of those foundational pieces, or those necessary pieces that probably weren't in his wheelhouse, were there, and then he was able to really apply his strength. But he had also learned some things.
Speaker 1:So, when it comes to pastoring, what strengths did God reveal to you that you had in pastoring?
Speaker 2:Well, I'd rather say in ministry. My strength in ministry is to build and empower people in communities through transformational teaching Like that is where I'm—that's the sweet spot, that's where I'm at and to build from there. Pastoring the job of pastoring is and of course it is different from church to church. When you're the chair of the finance committee, plus the chair of the board, plus the teaching pastor, plus the lead quote-unquote disciple maker, plus the lead programming coordinator, plus the marriage counselor, plus the contributing to the local school and you better have the bomb sermon, by the way, all of that, and you better serve.
Speaker 2:Right, it's like for me. It's just like. It's just for me. That's too much Like. I'm not, I ain't trying to, I ain't trying to be all that. It wasn't. It wasn't good for me, like it's just not.
Speaker 1:I know that there are some other guys who are like killer at it and that do really really well, but I mean I'm not sure if we're prepped for this conversation lies. You can do all of that right. You got to make choices and like, if you're a lead pastor of a huge box church, maybe the 11 o'clock hour is your thing, where that's what you're doing, and you got a bunch of assistant pastors who they go out and they do the visitation and all that stuff. But you got to make choices. Am I going to have the bomb sermon or am I going to go and meet with 15 members of my community this week? Because you're not going to be able to do both probably.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man. I mean, you're only as good as the team that surrounds you and your team is only as good as your ability to lead, right? So, um, yeah, yeah, man, when you asked me just the question to compare evangelism versus pastoral, particularly as for my skill set, I'm definitely more the evangelist director of the nonprofit thing, but you know to speak with candor and to be candid, it's tough to lead with very clear gospel in the Seventh-day Adventist setting.
Speaker 1:Talk to me a little bit, unpack that.
Speaker 2:Oh, bro, it's rough. You know what's up. I mean, listen, you know how hard it is for somebody to walk through 2 Corinthians 3 as a Seventh-day Adventist. Like it's tough for us, it's tough for an Adventist to call the law a ministry of death, and they'll be like, yeah, but that's for the person before they know Christ. Once you know Christ, you can live out the law. And it's like, yeah, the law of the spirit, of life, because the Holy Spirit has given you life in the inside. You're still not relating to the law on tablets because you're dead to the law and the law is not a faith.
Speaker 2:Galatians, right, so we don't come to Mount Sinai, we come to a heavenly Jerusalem. Galatians, what is that? Four? Or Galatians five? Um, you know, sinai is not our mother, she is the mother of those in captivity. Uh, jerusalem above is our mother and she is of the free. So you know, christ has set us free. It is for, for freedom. Christ has set you free. Galatians 5. So therefore, no longer walk in a yoke, you know. Walk in lockstep with the spirit so that you don't give over to the flesh. And then, you know, the adventists, we're always gonna be like, yeah, but what about the sabbath and you're like, for the love of mercy? Um, they're like, yeah, what about the law? And yeah, it's tough, bro, it's tough I this is.
Speaker 2:This is core part of Adventist history. It goes all the way back to before 1888. Right, but for the Adventists that know something about 1888, this was one of the huge beefs that when 1888, which was a general conference that happened in Minneapolis, minnesota, was a general conference that happened in Minneapolis, minnesota, and a general conference is when all the church, local leadership, designates representatives and the church as one worldwide organism gathers through its representative structure at a predetermined place. Back in 1888, it was in Minneapolis, and so the church gathers and the story is that you have these two young upstarts of From California, the Western boys From the Western boys you got AT Jones and EJ Wagner, and they're teaching on the Book of Galatians to some degree and they're teaching this insight that they think that they see that the righteousness that we have comes absolutely through Christ and that any appeals to the law are incorrect precisely because we live by faith. Now, for them they're like that doesn't mean we do away with the Sabbath, because we're not looking at the Sabbath by way of the 10 commandments, we're looking at the Sabbath by way of creation.
Speaker 2:But those who heard what these guys were saying were clutching their pearls. Well, they didn't clutch their pearls because we, you know, we don't wear jewelry. But if they had them, they would have clutched them. And the two lead clutchers were the general conference president His name was GI Butler and then our prophecy scholar in residence, who was one of the early Advent believers and his ministry ran decades. His name was Uriah Smith, who had literally written the book on Adventist prophetic interpretation, on both Daniel and Revelation.
Speaker 2:So they are the old guard, gi Butler and Uriah Smith, that stand against these young upstarts AT Jones and EJ Wagner. And GI Butler, particularly, is making appeals to Ellen White. Who Ellen White is, this figure within Adventism who many regard as a prophet. Others would just like to call her the Lord's messenger, form that you presented. She has great influence and authority, so much so that the president, gi Butler, is making appeals to her to correct these two young upstarts. Because if their theology wins the day, then why be Adventist? Because these young upstarts, namely Jones and Wagner, are doing away with the law. And.
Speaker 2:Butler would argue that it's clear that the law that Galatians is talking about is addressing the ceremonial law, because this had been a feature of Adventist theological interpretation for several decades. Now that there's this distinction between the ceremonial law meaning the 613 laws that map out the life of a observant Hebrew slash Jew more correctly, an Israelite at this time, hebrew slash Israelite and the Ten Commandments are, of course, the enduring law. That is the very character of God. That's why they're written on stone. This would be Butler's argument. We know that in the book of Galatians, the law that it's appealing to is the ceremonial law, and both Jones and Wagner are like nah nah, nah Butler, that ain't it, it's actually both, it's all in one. Nah Butler, that ain't it, it's actually both, it's all in one.
Speaker 2:And the very offensive thing about this gospel is that the gospel says that the law is not a faith, but we, the righteous, live by faith. Why? In one of his sermons, I think, he asks are we spiritual creationists or are we spiritual evolutionists? And what he's highlighting is that if we don't take God at his word and receive that we are fully righteous in him now, then we think that we're developing into righteous, which is a process of evolution, as opposed to believing and receiving that we are righteous by faith. That's what it means to be righteous by faith. And so this thing plays out and feelings are hurt, sermons are preached, strong barbs are tossed to and fro, and after white's so sad she doesn't want anybody to talk to her.
Speaker 1:She's like leave me alone. I'm going to my room, nobody talk to me yeah, uh.
Speaker 2:But subsequently, after 1888 conference, her, jones wagner and ellen white do some barnstorming of adventist churches all over the division and they start preaching this message of righteousness by faith. And uh, yeah, depending on who you get to tell you the history, there's a faction within present-day Adventism who would be like and righteousness by faith won the day right. And then there's this whole other faction who's like and ever since 1888, adventism has been an apostasy, been an apostasy. It's like you got this war that has come to it. Skirmishes, like they pop off from time to time, and then one of the biggest places that popped off most recently was, of course, with Desmond Ford 40 years ago. And I don't know if we want to get into that, but just to say that at the heart of this story, that is, the long arc of Adventism, there is this Uncomfortableness of having to deal with our relationship to the law no-transcript.
Speaker 2:That the law is the power of sin. That's super uncomfortable for an Adventist. Said that's super uncomfortable for an Adventist. So when me, as a pastor who I've been saying this stuff clear as an evangelist step up to a pulpit and try to say this stuff, well, first I'm seen as suspicious that I'm running so far ahead of the people that I'm confused as an enemy of me. Then I'm counseled by well-meaning concerned brethren and to he who has ears, let him hear by concerned brethren that maybe I should just pull it back a little bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wasn't that the name of the people against Desmond Ford at Avondale?
Speaker 2:My bad, You're the one with ears, and yeah, to pull it back. And then you start pulling it back. Well, maybe I'll stop there. I won't get into that whole bit, but maybe I'll stop there. You can ask whatever you want.
Speaker 1:And we've talked about this before on this podcast. The first time I heard you preaching, just the straight. We are not under the law. You know Romans 6, 14, sin will have no dominion over us, since we are not under the law but under grace. I was sitting there and I was it's a visceral memory watching, like having my computer open.
Speaker 1:You were at the Campion Church and you're saying this and I was muy uncomfortable, you were muy caliente. Yeah, I was like what is he going to say about the Sabbath? Because anytime we bring up you know Galatians 3, the tutor, this thing that happened in 1888, an Adventist will jump out of the bush and be like, no, don't say that, that's not a tent. Like you got to be careful. And so we have a very weird relationship to the law and it's unclear our relationship to the law because of our relationship to the Sabbath and because we don't sometimes understand the Sabbath. I mean we have a weird relationship to the Sabbath.
Speaker 1:It's like a vicious circle of the Sabbath and the law and then your Adventist who's just like trying to do what's right. They want to live out righteousness, so they want to become righteous, and the righteousness, you know, jesus said it. He's like if you love me, you'll keep my commands. And so there's this real dissonance when a brother gets up there and says Romans 6, 14, or that the just live by faith, and look, it says the law is not a faith. How did you navigate, moving somebody through that gingerly? Because it's a long. What did Eugene Peterson say? It's a long journey towards obedience. It's not a long obedience in the same direction. It can't be just a fire and brimstone sermon. Right, it's got to take some time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but for Eugene peterson, he's actually starting from gospel and we begin gospel right, mercy. Oh my, my own shortcoming is being frustrated at people who are like they've been in the church for 30 years, they've been elders and have held positions and they're like you know then it's, it's a marvel that we're in Christ. Like, wait, hold on what I thought we were still working on steps to Christ. It's like no, bro, you're in Christ and so, yeah, that that I was. I was not well suited to doing that. As you know, rich, I, I, I have a. I've been accused of having a strong personality.
Speaker 1:And jury's out who's to say.
Speaker 2:I've also been rightly accused of saying a lot of things with my chest and so sometimes, just to say the thing in my evangelistic tone, while the listener was hoping for some more, uh, how do I say it? They were. They were looking for some shelter. Right, they were looking for some shelter. I wouldn't even want to say they were looking for a pastor, because I don't want to frame pastors as being accommodating, to like gospel compromise, because pastors are not, um, but the perception of a pastor is often that you accommodate for people's uh, confusion and you accommodate for their let me put it this way People. What I found in pastoring is that often enough not all the time, but often enough when you, as the pastor, will say something clearly that goes against their expectation, expectation an instrument that allows them to have some sort of ah man, how do I say this?
Speaker 1:See, I'm trying to say delicately, can I say this People don't really know what they want, and I learned this being a principal. They would say we want our school to be tough, we want our kids to learn, and then the report card would come back and they're like well, not that tough, I want my kid to have an A. It was more important that they had an A than the school was tough. When I'm listening to a sermon, old Richard, I don't want something new, all the way new. I want something that on the surface looks new but then at the end buttresses what I already believe.
Speaker 1:And so when the new thing comes in and it doesn't buttress what I already believe, I'm like oh no, buddy, that's too much. I wanted the twist, a different way of thinking about it, so that I can be like oh yeah, I already, I already knew that, but I'm glad he presented it in that new way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so then, if you, then if you present this thing that the text says but you don't give somebody reprieve, then you're at fault because you weren't quote unquote pastorally enough. Quote unquote, pastorly enough. And again, I was. I'm, I. I'm not the sort of person I, personality wise, I'm not the sort of person that runs from like it says it, this is what it is. And if it makes me feel uncomfortable, I might interact with it, resist it, like, but I I'll wrestle it and then maybe I'll come to terms with it. And my personality again there's me. I've always been the listen. I'm not looking for conflict, but if it comes up I'll engage. And often conflict doesn't determine how I feel about a person. Quite the contrary, actually, it does, because the more I'm willing to go into conflict with you, probably the more I love you. If I'm not willing to actually enter into conflict and engage you on a point, that should say something that's trouble.
Speaker 2:Right. And so here I am, pastoring in a community and I'm trying to say certain things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so talk to say certain things and I just yeah, so talk to me about this. You have love for people. You've been brought in to lead and guide the people and yet some of the things you're saying are rubbing them the wrong way and yet you want to move them slow, like, talk to me about the different things pulling you as you are moving through this pastoring and how successful or not successful were you in your mind. You know, we talked about the dissonance.
Speaker 2:We've talked about Well, I wasn't good at moving people slowly. I'm just, I'm not good. I wasn't good at moving people slowly. I'm just saying the thing and then I'm hearing back like hey, man, that's too much, too fast. And you know my natural sort of my, my default setting to that is, like yo, you've been in the church for 35 years and this is too much. Like come on, but come on, we got to turn this page. And you know, in a pastoral setting, just telling somebody like yo, and you know, in a pastoral setting, just telling somebody like yo, you got to turn this page.
Speaker 2:That's when people find new churches. Right, when you're on the road, that's what somebody is confronted with Like dang, what this dude is saying, because you're leaving in a few days. Sometimes pastors got a bone to pick with evangelists, because evangelists come in and say all this stuff, stir the pot, and then they're left with yeah. So I'm sensitive to that now, but early on in my pastoral journey I'm just like, hey, man, let's get with the program. Like this is what the gospel is, this is what it says, why you been in church for 25 years. And like this is new to you. You know what I'm saying, yeah, and so that's, that's a, that's a, that's a shortcoming on for me to find that line of like not compromising while at the same time being graceful and merciful. So, yeah, that's one lesson that I took away, but I think to you the question that you just asked and remind me the question you just asked.
Speaker 1:Well, I want to highlight, like, what did the? How did this feel as you were trying to navigate all of this? You know, first couple years of marriage, first years of dad, and you're trying to navigate all of this and you want to be clear and you don't want to deviate from the gospel, but it's, it's. I mean, it sounds like it's pretty difficult. How did you navigate that and how did you like, without going and being double-minded?
Speaker 2:Oh, I did it, uh, uh, you didn't navigate it without being double-minded.
Speaker 2:oh, I didn't, uh you didn't navigate it without being double-minded no, I didn't navigate without being double-minded and uh, one of the one of the things is that, yeah, you start doing so. I remember I started preaching and like just from the jump, you know, you're getting people coming up to you like, hey man, you know, there's these whispers that people don't really. You're getting people coming up to you like, hey man, there's these whispers that people don't really think you're really Adventist. Or it sounds like you're saying once saved, always saved.
Speaker 2:And these are two big, huge accusations that you could lobby at an Adventist pastor. You're not Adventist enough and then you're just teaching, quote unquote, licentiousness, however you want to live, is racism right.
Speaker 1:Too much love. We need more, more of the justice of God.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and not for me. Like for me, it wasn't too much love to me. The phrase for me is like, oh, there's too much freedom, like it's just people can live however they want to live, and so you get those accusations and it's for me. I'm like I'm trying to double down. I'm like, no, no, look what the text says. Let me draw your attention, and then you find yourself in that position that you articulated earlier, that, as I'm showing them what the text says, then I become the enemy because I'm not being pastoral enough, right, and I'm not using tactful language, as it were, and often guilty is charged. And then, on top of that, you add the outside noise that is coming for love reality. You know it. There's these documentaries online where people don't put their names and faces to documentaries, articles Fulcrum, 7 and their sensationalist nonsense, or 7 and their sensationalist nonsense. And then all the way to Ted Wilson, where he just calls out Love Reality.
Speaker 1:Was that the same year you started it?
Speaker 2:was all within the same year. Yeah, year one. And it's like not only emboldens keyboard warriors who just come for you and come for your life, I guess that's a lot bro, Especially that old Ted Wilson thing where he did it like annual council and then he did it somewhere else and it's like, do I have an email, a phone number? Could it hit me up?
Speaker 1:I think that was in October. I remember vividly my phone blowing up while I was like in between Sabbath school and church because he was on the East Coast and Eddie texted me, or somebody texted me like yo, look at what he said and there's this you know, we want to live by a certain way. You know, paul's like yo. I don't even judge myself, so y'all judge me. We all want to have that mind. We want to move correctly and not be afraid. But man, when I saw that man, it didn't feel good at all. I remember my body, I remember feeling it in my body, looking at it, like what is happening and I didn't want to tell you about it. I happening and I don't know, and I didn't want to tell you about it. I'm like I don't know if Jonathan knows about this. I mean, did you have the same kind of mindset when you heard about it? We want to steward our lives in the right way. But what about these feelings Like why do I feel this way?
Speaker 2:Oh, I mean, I'll tell you exactly why you feel this certain way. You feel I said this in a podcast with Chris Mendenow the other day I'm Adventist my whole life, from my womb. This is the church that nurtured me, loved me, cared for me, gave me. I got social mobility because of the Adventist church. I'm a kid from the projects who ends up having several degrees and gets to travel around the country and in great places in the world and, like my money was up because of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, I went from living in the projects to, you know, middle class and above, like I was doing, you know, doing good, got friends all over the place, influence. So it was. It's been a huge blessing to be a part of this organization and have all these opportunities. Uh, and so you, you have a deep sense of your person and identity around the community that has nurtured you, loved you and grown you, and then you finally encounter the gospel and you think that the community that has loved you like this is why they have loved you, because this is what they've been engaging with the whole time as well. And so when I first got it, I'm like, oh, I finally get it. I know why Adventists are the way that they are, in the sense of like on their best days. And then you know, lo and behold, you find out they're like oh well, there seems to be a bug in the system and that bug is somewhat resistant to this message of righteousness by faith.
Speaker 2:And of course, you learn a little bit of the Adventist history and it's like, oh, this ain't new, it was there in 1888. You know, it's been, it's, it's been flashing for the past. And they're in the seventies. Yeah, it's been. You know, more evented, got lamb blasted. So it happens from time to time. And then the more you go on, you're like hold on, hold on, hold on. This doesn't feel so much like a bug. You start pastoring, you experience it, and then you got the world president who lamb blasts you and they didn't even take. Yeah, like no phone calls, nothing, no, reaching out, admonishing us to be scriptural. But doesn't Matthew 18, the thing at all Right? And you start to feel like, oh, the people that love me and raised me are rejecting me. Yeah.
Speaker 2:They're rejecting me because of what scripture says, that you're free from sin, that you're not under the law, that you're in Christ now, that you're sanctified now, and to say that goes against the narrative of these people that I love so dearly and I'm being rejected. I'm being actively rejected and it's showing up by way of these online documentaries by online commentators that now is having in real life impact and effect, because now my church members, who I love dearly, who are great, they have to defend why their pastor is a pastor. The local conference I'm a part of, which I love deeply, and they did their due diligence and were awesome they now have to defend their conference every time. They're a part of the broader divisional community. Right, and you know. You ask yourself well, what did I do wrong? Like? I read Romans 6. I saw what Hebrews 10 said. I read Colossians 3. I read John 8. I read Colossians 1 and 2. One and two. Ephesians one, two and three.
Speaker 2:Uh, you know I'm saying and you're like I just started saying this stuff and it's like yeah, but one, that's not the way we said it for 100 and some ideas. Because ellen white told us, hey, like well, I good for her. But Paul says, right here, you know, james says right here, peter says right here, matter of fact, jesus says right here that you don't come into judgment, you've passed from death to life, like who the son says free is free indeed that we were slaves to sin, right, john 8. Were slaves to sin? Right, john 8. And you start saying this stuff forward and you get the pushback that we got and that I got, nah, it doesn't feel good, bro.
Speaker 2:And then, you know, I got interactions with conference presidents who, sadly, rich, just straight up, were, yeah, they were less than Christ-like with me and like wild bro, telling me one thing privately, another thing publicly. You got conferences writing letters without ever reaching out to us. You know, north Carolina did it, I think, georgia, cumberland, oklahoma, some other conferences that they feel like they do their own internal due diligence. But here I am a fellow Adventist pastor and I can't even get the benefit of the doubt or the graciousness of the brethren. And so, yeah, for that to be year one and two of pastoring, uh yeah, let's just say I started eating a lot of cake.
Speaker 1:So, from what I've seen, some some of this was because of your love that you have for people, um, and the responsibility that you have felt, not just for you and your family, but for me and my family, for Ed and his family, and for you, know, and you started, you know, putting that on all the responsibility. Were you feeling just heavy?
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm feeling heavy because at that point, love Reality, you know, is running as a ministry. We're doing what we're doing and donations are coming in, and those donations are paying for people's lives, right, ed and his family, you and yours, justin, for people's lives, right, ed and his family, you and yours, justin. And love reality, to some degree, is, it goes to some extent with how present I am and continue to bless the community, right? And so, yeah, I start feeling this deep sense of pressure and responsibility to make sure that you're taken care of, eddie continues to be taken care of, justin continues to be taken care of. You know, eddie, for reasons that you can Google, already lost his reputation and that's in tatters. But you know Justin Coop, who is well known in Adventism. I'm trying to steward this thing well so that I don't burn bridges for him and don't, like, jeopardize this thing in such a way that it messes the livelihood of you and your family, like you, justin, eddie. And so I feel a deep responsibility.
Speaker 2:And now my headspace is well, maybe I take a step back for a while, maybe I don't show up as often, maybe I pull back and try to preach different sermons. Let me try to do a series on, I don't know, fill in the blank, but I'm terrible at that because any sermon I preached or any series I try to do, whatever it was, it always came back to All right. And finally, you have to believe that you're in Christ. Believe the word of him over your life. You're free from sin. You are his righteousness. The gospel is're in Christ. Believe the word of him over your life. You're free from sin. You are his righteousness. The gospel is that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. He died, was buried, resurrected, ascended through the heavens. He was seen by many at the right hand of the father. He will return as judge of the dead and the living.
Speaker 2:We can be absolutely confident in the day of judgment because we live in through and by for him. And that was on a sermon about the book of Esther. Yeah, exactly, and that was a sermon on tithe right.
Speaker 2:Like wait, what? So, yeah, man, this is a thing that we've been talking about in the background, where you start compromising and I start muting myself or I start editing myself or I'm trying. I also start hiding myself because I told you I was like yo don't send me any information. That's negative, like it's stressing me out, my mental health isn't good. You act as Justin and Eddie, like my mental health was not good, I was not good, uh, it's. It's a. It's a raw deal.
Speaker 2:When I've always called Adventism my third parent, you know, my parents split. Dad wasn't much around, mom did the single thing and then Adventism stepped in. It's like my third parent. It's rough when your third parent is actually kicking you. You know what I'm saying. It was rough, so I'm like let me not come around, because my third parent is presently pissed at me and I'm trying to keep my allowance and so my mental health is, and so my mental health is admittedly not good.
Speaker 2:And then the place I'm leading from and working from is internal. Like I'm editing and I'm muting myself now, so I'm seeding ground, which is a place of compromise, and when I'm working from that place of compromise, what that creates internally is dissonance, because up to that point. I am now convinced that resistance to the gospel that I've been convinced of is not a bug of the community I'm a part of, but it's a feature of the community I'm a part of. But I love my community and I'm not leaving it like I am an adventist. I'm staying like I'm all right one way shape or form, yeah, like I ain't going. Like jesus said as much and they crucified him, right, and he still stuck around, like paul was. Like yo, I'm gonna go to the gentiles, but even if I come to jerusalem, I'm still a Pharisee. Right, I identify as an Adventist, but I'm beginning to believe that my community is resistant to this gospel. And so I start leaving from a place of dissonance.
Speaker 2:And that dissonance is an internal dissonance where I'm making compromises for the sake of material considerations, which is your family, justice family, eddie's family, my wellbeing, my family, my daughter, my wife, my home. You know I still got. You know, the light bill in Hawaii is expensive, bro, and um is expensive, bro. And when you start leading from a place of dissonance, bro, it comes out as negative energy. I love Brene Brown on this. Brene Brown talks about. We offload on people negative energy as a dissonance, and so you have an internal dissonance and that internal dissonance is creating negative energy that's looking for a place to land, and so you offload and in ways that when it was just us on the road, we're not present. And yeah, man, ultimately I had to be confronted with, like yo, this is not good for me, it's not good for be confronted with, like yo.
Speaker 1:This is not good for me, it's not good for how did you come to the? Because all this is happening, and perhaps you know some of it is happening, but you're not in the front of your mind, saying I'm making, I'm going to soft pedal this thing, I'm not going to say it hard. When did the realization come to you that you had been compromising in areas that you shouldn't have been?
Speaker 2:That's a great question. I think I certainly sensed it in my body way before my brain caught up Like I'm sensing it in my body.
Speaker 1:It's so funny that your brain will tell you things that is not true, but your body kind of knows. Yeah, yeah, yeah, your body actually really knows what's up and your brain takes a while to catch up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Well, I did find myself having the same frustrating conversations over and over with. Just my head was coming up against a wall, it fell and I was like something is wrong here. Something's wrong and in part, I'm sure I'm fully aware that one of the things that was wrong is that your ability to lead is only as good as your ability to communicate your strategy. Right of my ability to communicate my strategy and the strategy that I sought to implement was grounded on a foundation that was not in alignment with the community I was leading Right and that there's no, and I'm really sorry for people who are going to listen to this podcast and be like, that's not true. Like I, it wasn't my experience and I've been an Adventist a really long time and I've been an Adventist at every single level.
Speaker 1:Okay, I want to take a real quick break. I want to tell you we're going to be in Denver September 26 and 27. It is filling up. There's going to be a whole lot of people there vibing out with gospel stuff. Jonathan's going to be there, justin's going to be there, I'm going to be there and a bunch of your Denver friends are going to be there, walking in freedom. So if you want to join, dm us, talk to us. We're going to set it up. We've had a sponsor come and cover most of the costs, so it is going to be awesome. We want to see you in Denver and also partner with us. Let's get this gospel out. Wwwloverealityorg slash give. Every dollar you donate goes into furthering this message getting out there, whether through the podcast, through Internet, church, through the Bible studies. Let's get this message out. We have seen lives change when people understand they're free from and dead to sin in Christ Jesus. So love realityorg slash give. And then let's get back to episode.
Speaker 2:So you find this place where, like I know, people are going to feel some sort of way here and what I'm saying? That when your ministry within the Adventist church starts from being in Christ, church starts from being in Christ, like 100%, secure in Christ, and you say things like in Christ, by faith, I'm free from sin. In Christ, by faith, I am his under the law, right. The law is for the unjust and we are the just because we are the righteous. These are you're starting from a different foundation.
Speaker 1:So, as all this is playing out, you know, year one, ted Wilson, says this thing. It kind of got a little quiet. Year two people come back after some event froggy and they start just coming for us. There's these documentaries. Um, what made you say, oh, I can see this thing now and and I need to move forward in a different way?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean you have like your most basic relationships in gospel, begin to have wear and tear on them. And the reason they got wear and tear is because can two walk together unless they be agreed? Like, I'm not telling anybody. I'm not saying leave Adventism. I'm not saying stay in Adventism. I'm not saying anything about Adventism, I'm saying in Christ.
Speaker 2:Right, what's required of me is to then say stay Adventism. And I want to say be in Christ. And then, from being in Christ, I'm going to make a defense for what I believe. But that may not align with how you see things, align with how you see things, and that doesn't align with the way that my employer would hope I see things. And so you know, for me it was a matter of I could not live in the dissonance anymore. I cannot, I cannot seek to not prioritize Christ and make Jesus everything Um and then, yeah, and then have relationships be strained and not be clear and articulate about it. Right, like what I'm saying right now, I couldn't have not have said as a, as a, as a pastor, I mean I could have, but it would have come at great cost, because more attention, more noise, more critique, right, like that's what the net effect of this podcast as it goes out into the world might have that.
Speaker 1:The identity factor is so huge and I heard your conversation with Chris and um I come from. My abuelito was a Seventh-day Adventist pastor. My tios are Seventh-day Adventist pastors. My cousins are Seventh-day Adventist pastors. I'm one of the only members of my family that wasn't a Seventh-day Adventist pastor and yet Seventh-day Adventist pastor that runs in my bloodline yeah, Like that runs in my bloodline, and you commented earlier, like when we first hear this thing and we receive it, and a lot of the time you know those who are forgiven much, love much.
Speaker 1:I had some stuff going on in my life. You had some stuff going on in your life. When we see this, we're like yo, this is crazy. We go to the people that we love and we tell them and they look at us like, yeah, this is what we've been teaching all along. And we're like, oh man, I'm tripping, I missed this, how did I miss this? And then years go by and you're like I'm not sure I missed it, I don't think it was there, like it wasn't there. And so they, you're going through this whole thing and and they they kind of talk down to you like, yeah, man, why didn't you know?
Speaker 2:this To be clear it's you say the thing and they say yeah, and then when they repeat it back, they say something different and you're like no, that's not what I'm saying. Like no, no, we're saying the same thing. And you have to confront up like no, no, we were saying the same thing. We'd say the same thing. Same thing.
Speaker 2:Like if we were saying that in Christ, by faith, we're free from sin, you'd be able to say in Christ, by faith, you are, in fact, right now, free from sin. And it's like oh, no, no, well, you know, we're always just sinners. So, wait, hold on, so we're not saying the same thing. Because if, by sinner, you're saying that you're not free from sin, then you're not saying what the text says, unless if you're saying by sinner, sinner, that you have the capacity to sin. If, by saying that you have the capacity to sin, to be sure, but what category are we under? Are we under the category of we're free in Christ or are we still slaves to sin? And for those who say we're still slaves to sin, then that's where like, oh, we're not saying the same thing, then that's where like oh, we're not saying the same thing.
Speaker 1:And this is where compromise comes in. Because you start compromising, because you'll say, yeah, well, that's how God sees me, yeah, and then we're like wait, so Jesus is playing a trick on God. Like Jesus is just like nah, they're good, but we're really not good. And God's he's just looking the other way. He's like okay, good, but we're really not good. And God's, he's just looking the other way. He's like okay. Like, when you really start thinking about it, we use all this language to get around what the text is saying, because we don't either feel it or it isn't what our foundation is, or whatever. But it's a weak, a weak testimony.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man. So then I start saying things less than the way I've said them in the past, cause I don't've said them in the past because I don't want to smoke. And the reason I don't want to smoke is because I ain't got no Ted. I ain't got Ted Wilson type influence, and when he unleashes the hounds, whether intentionally or unintentionally, has a real world effect in my life. It has consequences, and but the Internet don't care.
Speaker 2:You know the brothers out there, you know who you are. You're going to make your content. You're going to make your content. You got to get your clicks. But as far as like Engaging me in mind as the people that have lives and that have loved ones, that this has real world consequences, like no, because I'm not standing up for truth. The straight message all right, yeah, all right. And what's crazy is that in the background there were so many people that you know offered support. Hey, john wc was on. We're supporting you, supporting you, even, even you. You you'd be crazy to hear like who at the, the administrative levels, right, like who can quietly offer support, but you think they can go out there and say with their chest and with their title, and so you know, you start, you start putting these pieces together and you're like all right.
Speaker 1:So like I appreciate the quiet support, like that's real dope but it's like rick blaine and casablanca he doesn't stick his neck out for anybody. At some point you gotta you. You see it, you're like I can't.
Speaker 2:yeah, man, I'm not 75, so I've never seen Casablanca I believe you. That's my favorite.
Speaker 1:The main character doesn't stick his neck out for anybody. You know it's World War II and he's got all the and he's just like, nah, I'm not. And then he does. At the end he sticks it like because of his actual integrity, he does stick his neck out at the end.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, and you know, it's one thing to be like I think Jonathan is wrong and that's my respect to that Like, yeah, man, just say I'm wrong, but I'm just talking from my perspective and what I felt is that then the sum total of my experience is one in where my third parent now is rejecting me and, uh, those who would offer support, they do so in the shadows. Um, uh, those who would offer support, they do so in the shadows, um, and you know the, the, the people that I could say that were really like just upfront and just dope, dope, dope with me where it was my conference. My conference was super dope with me, above board, uh, and they actually sat me down and went yo, let's talk all of these things out. I had a couple of PhDs that sat down in the room with me and we walked through it and they're like yeah, okay, we're with you. We might not say it the way you're saying it, but like yeah.
Speaker 2:And so yeah, man, it just at some point it just didn't feel good and it wasn't. Let's put it this way.
Speaker 1:I feel the Lord released me from the assignment let's put it this way I feel the lord released me from the assignment. So, as you have been released from the assignment and you know we were talking about this you know, early on 2025, we didn't know how everything was going to go, but we knew by the end of 2025, maybe even the middle we didn't know, it was the middle, but by the end that there would be a different move. Now that you are no longer in employment and you have not been compromising, like, do you feel different? Is that weight or the dissonance that you were practicing for a while? What's happened there?
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, the weight is certainly lifted and shifted because I'm not looking to that check every two weeks. So I'm trusting God to give provision and thus far he has God to give provision and thus far he has. But the other thing I had to wrestle with deeply is my self-conception, self-identity and I talked about this in other places where somebody's sense of Adventism, particularly somebody like me and somebody like you, isn't merely theological, it isn't doctrinal, it's cultural, it's community, the way we make sense of ourselves. You know the habit of our lives, what we did every weekend, the events that we went to, even the cuisine that we eat, the story that we tell ourselves, the music that we heard, the language that we use, the vernacular, the sub like the yeah, the dialect, the references were culturally Adventist.
Speaker 2:We see certain things in scripture differently than other people do and we might not come into agreement with all 28. And I'll tell you what a good number of I know North American Adventists do not. And yet they are self-described as Adventists and they defend Adventism and, like in the senseographic conception of who you are, adventism plays a role and being an Adventist is something right. Yeah, the weight has lifted in the sense that I'm not employed by the institution so that I can disagree with the pastoral guild. And here's the thing, man. This is too reductive, because how many pastors disagree with each other left and right? Like you know what I'm saying, dennis Priebe does not agree with George Knight.
Speaker 1:That's the thing is that we're actually talking about it, where there's a grip of adventists who may or may not believe something similar to we do, but they don't, perhaps don't even think about it. They're just like, oh you know, I don't, well, I don't buy that, or I don't buy this, or actually I think this, but they don't get on a podcast or talk about it. It because they maybe are not in that position, they don't have influence or they're not a leader, and so they could just go about it. And I was listening to one guy who was shocked at hearing an Adventist pastor say well, I actually don't believe that. And he was like what, how can you say that?
Speaker 1:And I live in Tennessee and I'm I live in tennessee man, I live in the south. The south has a certain way that they, they think about things, but I came from the midwest, I came from kansas city. In kansas city, some of these things don't bother everybody, and so we're actually just kind of pulling the curtain back a little bit and be like, yeah, we could talk about these things and it doesn't have to change our identity not to change like.
Speaker 2:Look at, look at, look at, look at the war around the one project. Remember when that started, what like 2011 or before that? Uh, all right, look how that became this global lightning bolt and all those. A lot of those guys are still adventists. I mean, look at, you know, tim gillespie was leading a dope congregation that has churches all over the division, that crosswalk movement, these guys who were absolutely faithful to gospel and proclaiming Jesus all, and look how much gruff and crap that they got from the Fulcrum Seven types and Ted Wilson, because because he had the pure straight message. And what I'm highlighting is that that's adventism, that's a part of being adventist. Is that, uh, intramural scrimmaging? Right, you're gonna have ted wilson and his idea going hard at the guys from the one project, and they're still both expressions of being an Adventist. But if they're both expressions of being an Adventist, I would argue that then Adventism the cornerstone, isn't fundamentally being in Christ, it's cultural, it has theological elements. It has theological elements and I know to the, a lot of people over the theological spectrum are still self-identified as Adventists. That's just empirically true, and the Adventist institution is still happy to take their money as long as they don't rock the boat way too much. They're happy to still be. You know, you can start a church that's different over here and you can be part of the conference and we'll take your top money and then we'll funnel it in the ways that the current administration thinks it ought to be funneled. That's all an expression of being an Advent right Like Fulcrum 7, that's a bunch of Adventists.
Speaker 2:You can't kick them out. You can't kick them out. Spectrum. Bunch of Adventists, you ain't kicking them out. How much agreement is between them? Boys over at Spectrum and Fulcrum 7? Very little Adventists. That's what I'm'm saying. Like all of them are my people, all of them are people. But what I won't compromise anymore is in christ right and like. I'll proclaim that hard to anybody that's willing to listen, and so that's. That's the space where I've come to.
Speaker 1:That's what makes you scary, man. I think that a buddy of mine this is before I knew anything, I was very naive, I'm just like we're free and I'm telling everybody and a buddy of mine who'd been a pastor for a while and he was no longer a pastor, he's like Richard, can I ask you a question? I said what's up? He said do you consider yourself a Christian first or a Seventh-day Adventist first? And I was like well, duh, a Christian. And he was like Adventists, don't think like that, and that's why you're scary to them. And something clicked in my mind. I was like, oh, because like, an Adventist sees Adventist as like well, yeah, we are that, but we're also this, but we're this first, and the this first is this main thing that they're, they're trying to come across, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I I recognize that that is the experience of many and that a lot of people would resonate with what you're saying. But then there's a whole swath of Adventist who would not resonate with what you're saying. But then there's a whole swath of Adventists who would not resonate with what you're saying. And that's the thing. Like, I've seen that Adventism, I've seen the Adventists who were like what do you talk about? We believe the gospel first, then we're Adventists.
Speaker 2:This binary of am I Christian or Adventist? That isn't even the lens. I see this through, Like I know those churches, I know those people I've preached there. This is what I'm saying is that it's all valid, Like in the sense that their membership is at an Adventist church, they send their kids to Adventist schools, they might have got degrees from an Adventist institution, they still support their local Adventist church and that church might take the money and pass it on to the conference, the conference up to the union, the union up to the division, the division up to you. Know what I'm saying? So who gets to be like, oh, you ain't really truly Adventist? I'll tell you where the pressure is at. The pressure is when you are employed. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And you have to be these things as an employee, that's. And then your livelihood is absolutely attached and you don't have like, yeah, I mean I can talk about this a long time, but I'm addressing, that's what I'm highlighting. Sure, I can no longer compromise, will not be able to preach the full gospel, because I'm going to get a paycheck every two weeks that they expect me to say this, that and the third, and it's like no, that's no, no.
Speaker 1:So, as we're kind of wrapping this thing up, man, man, as you had a single eye 2017 to 2021, you know, single eye. You're preaching this thing freedom from sin. Then all this happens and you're coming out Is your eye more or less single? And if it is single, what's the move going forward for you? What's coming out of your mouth as you're preaching to the saints?
Speaker 2:It's more of the same man, same thing. Pinky, we're saying the same thing, trying to take over the world.
Speaker 2:Trying to tell everybody who's willing to listen in Christ, by faith, they are free from sin. No, I think for me it's just. I got to check myself every day like where's my provision. I think that's what this season has really, really taught me is that I cannot live from a double mind. I cannot violate my conscience. I violated my conscience. I violated my conscience in a way that was imperceptible to me. And God is gracious. Right, that means that says nothing about my liberty. It says nothing about my standing before God. Right, that means this has nothing about my liberty. Uh, it says nothing about my standing before God. Right, it does say something about my, uh, my mind in Christ that continues to need maturing and growing. Because my provision was elsewhere and because my or at least it was, at least I let the idea of like, oh, this is what I need, so that then I was not walking in the strength of my personal calling for me. And God is gracious man. God redeems the years. He gives us back what the enemy stole.
Speaker 2:But by way of compromising my conscience, by violating my conscience, I put myself in situations where I was tempted to pick up patterns of my former ignorance. And boy did I pick them up from time to time, yeah, and so in picking them up now, I'm holding this weaponry that isn't mine. I know I laid it down a long time ago Like what the heck is going on. And that's the gift of self-criticism by way of the Holy Spirit. Like the Holy Spirit illuminates. Like yo, you are operating in something that is no longer yours. This is why it feels uncomfortable and it feels foreign and weird, but it also has this familiarity to it that I don't want you to get familiar with this again. And so you see that play out and you're like wait, hold on, something's wrong, something's going on. And it's like Holy Spirit, help me, what is going on? And it's like well, remember you began in Christ and when you received him, therefore, walk in him. Like you begin in Christ, what's up? I'm like uh, uh, uh, uh, uh. Like you begin in Christ, what's up?
Speaker 1:Like you begin with way more patience. I think of these two different sections, where Paul is talking about the mind of Christ, and in 1 Corinthians 2, he says that we have the mind of Christ, meaning the Holy Spirit has told us what God has done for the world, like it's not supposed to be a mystery. God has revealed to us, through the Holy Spirit, what the work of the cross is in Jesus. But then, in Philippians 2, he says have this same mind that Christ had. And so, while we have the mind of Christ meaning we have the Holy Spirit who has revealed to us the gospel now we're to have the same mind that Christ had not grumbling, not complaining, being content.
Speaker 1:And so, man, this thing that was revealed to me in January of 2019 has not changed. God has revealed to me how much I'm loved, and now I'm practicing and putting on this mind that I have in Christ. I'm not going to grumble, I'm not going to complain. I'm practicing and putting on this mind that I have in Christ. I'm not going to grumble, I'm not going to complain, I'm not going to live double-minded. I want unity with the body, but we're not going to compromise on a false gospel, because it is no gospel at all.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can't make a compromise for the gospel for the sake of the greater good of keeping my community without conflict. It's not even peace, right, it's compromise for the greater good of keeping this community without conflict. It's like I'm not trying to bring conflict, but if being faithful to the gospel within my Adventist community ruffles some feathers, so be it. Like I don't know what to tell you, right? Like I'm not trying to be a troubler. But if the gospel brings a sword that you find yourself on the wrong side of, but if the gospel brings a sword that you find yourself on the wrong side of, like, repent and believe the gospel. And I know that I I, I, jonathan, leonardo compromised certain things. Had dissonance in my life, had it come out in patterns of my former ignorance that I have repented of and seek to not live from Now with this conversation, this conversation has been skewed one way.
Speaker 2:That's not to say that there wasn't great blessings, that there was a lot of growth, a lot of gospel preached, lives changed Great, great, great things that happened during my time. Absolutely, there was right. That's not what this conversation is choosing to focus on. That's not what this conversation is about. This conversation is more some of the lessons I've learned and why I departed. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, but just to highlight, there was a lot of good things, a lot of good life. Like, just, it was a privilege to pastor where I pastored. It was a privilege to pastor the community I pastored. They're like, they're the best, they were so gracious, so, and, man, I had a congregation that was so honest with me. They're like listen, we're going to be honest, some of the things you're saying, we have no idea what you're saying, but we love you and we love that you're saying it. So keep saying it. I promise you we don't get it.
Speaker 2:I had that over and over, like it was, it was a beautiful thing. It was a beautiful thing. So you know this conversation we're having, cause we're framing it through a beautiful thing. It was a beautiful thing. So you know this conversation we're having because we're framing it, yeah, through a certain meta experience, particularly love, reality and all the noise and why I left, uh, but as far as, like the community, the immediate community, I was a part of my local conference that was like beyond supportive and spirit and these are why, like, those are just examples of why you're not going to catch me Like Jonathan, you Adventist, yes, yes, yes, and I'm just, I'm being the one who's actually saying it. They're like all of us know it, that we're all Adventist, but that doesn't mean we agree with everything. We don't align all on all these points and we're just uncomfortable to say this quiet bit out loud, like there are conferences that are in absolute disagreement with one another. Like I promise you. I promise you Right. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And yet, adventists, we love each other. Hopefully we continue to build each other. Hopefully we continue to build each other. Hopefully we continue to challenge one another in the gospel.
Speaker 2:I hope that the Adventist church grows more and more in the gospel of freedom, not the gospel of mere forensic justification there's a difference, let's talk about that some more someday but that we grow in the gospel of freedom freedom not merely forensic justification and or this gospel of fundamental, incremental growth, so that we one day have victory over sin. Right the two ditches of Adventism, either last generation theology or just hey, I'm always going to suck, but thank God, no that we might walk and live and breathe in this gospel that absolutely transforms us, because Jesus Christ has conquered Sin and death and has given us the victory in himself, through his spirit, to be ours right now, received by faith and walked out in allegiance, empowered by grace. So, yeah, I moving forward. I'm just going to be about the same thing I was before, but I'm a move forward with a lot greater awareness of some of the dynamics that are at play, and I'll actually be a better evangelist for having had been a pastor.
Speaker 1:Amen, bro. This is coming out and in a couple of days we'll be hanging out at Internet Church. Give people a sneak peek on what's going to be going on in internet church for the next couple of months, next few months. What are we going to be diving into?
Speaker 2:So we're going to dive into a little bit of this not living double-minded and then after that we're going to get real nerdy with it and see the gospel in the book of Leviticus and Hebrews.
Speaker 1:It seems like that's the theme. That's the thing your inner nerd is going to be coming out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's do it. I love you. My daughter's crying. I got to go. I love you bro.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much Peace.