Death to Life podcast
A podcast that tells the stories of people that used to be one way, and now are completely different, and the thing that happened in between was Jesus.
Death to Life podcast
#233 Lauren Via, Weathering the Storm: A Pastor's Wife's Journey Through Church Conflict
Lauren Via shares her powerful testimony of walking through church conflict and finding healing after being forced to leave her beloved Oklahoma church community due to gospel misunderstandings.
• Experiencing the difficult transition when church leadership began pushing back against gospel freedom
• Suppressing her own emotions while supporting her husband and children through the conflict
• Watching her four-year-old son develop anxiety as he witnessed his father's emotional distress
• Having to leave their church without fully explaining the situation to their congregation
• Moving to Texas and initially struggling to feel at home in their new church
• Finding God's presence through repeated "dragonfly moments" at pivotal times
• Experiencing breakthrough healing during a gathering in Missouri where friends prayed over her
• Learning that freedom is a journey rather than a one-time event
• Returning to Oklahoma a year later and experiencing the gift of forgiveness
• Discovering that peace doesn't depend on circumstances but on our secure relationship with Jesus
If you're going through a difficult transition or church conflict, remember that Jesus walks with you through every step. Your freedom remains secure even when your feelings suggest otherwise.
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Speaker 2:It just kind of hit them like a ton of bricks and they still didn't know, because Wes couldn't get a word out during this point, like he's not telling them anything, it's not like the church knows. He's sobbing from the front and the church comes around him and next thing I know I'm like grabbing my babies and running to the sanctuary and I just see them basically in this gigantic group. Hug, wes is saying nothing for minutes and minutes and it's feeling like a very long time. He's trying to say different things at different points and the church is just there. They're so tight, they're all in there, and then they just start praying for him.
Speaker 2:And at that point we could open up and he told him a little bit, but it was still like they were just so confused and, um, and I am just there, no tears, wes bawling his eyes out, and I'm like, yeah, this is what's going on, this is what's happening. And and it was just strange for me, but I was needing, I felt like to hold it together for my family. I'm telling you it. It felt like I needed to do this for Wes, I needed to do this, uh, for my kids, and I didn't realize what I was doing, but that was definitely, uh, what happened, and it wasn't until I would say, um, yeah, during therapy and talking that out, and then, like actually leaving that, all of a sudden, I hit my low.
Speaker 1:It came after this Welcome to the Death Alive podcast. My name is Richard Young and today we are back to Oklahoma month, or whatever it's been, and our guest is Lauren Vai, and it was so cool to hang out with Lauren. We went down to Texas a few weeks ago and we got to hear a lot of her story and I said, yeah, we need to have this on the podcast. And she was so gracious and decided to come on and share her heart. And these stories are difficult. You know. You've heard a few of these on the podcast and there will be more. But God is showing his love, his favor, his grace for his kids and I think you're going to be really blessed and edified and encouraged by Lauren and her story. And it's different than Wes's story, even though they're married and they were experiencing similar things. It's different. And so buckle up and strap in. You will be blessed by Lauren Vai. Love y'all, appreciate y'all.
Speaker 1:Okay, last week we took a little bit of a hiatus from Oklahoma Month and we had Jonathan Leonardo on, but enough of that. We're back with Oklahoma, oklahoma year. It feels like we've had a couple. And Lauren, what's up? How? How have you been? Uh, enjoying Oklahoma month?
Speaker 2:I've been loving it. I have definitely tuned back in, um, and haven't missed, uh, an episode in a while now, um, but I've been really encouraged. It came at a good time for me to just kind of bring things back around and see, you know, just kind of the fruits of the things that had been happening, and to check in with my Oklahoma peeps was just a blessing to see everybody and the way that they're growing and how the gospels affected their lives.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. We recorded your episode before I'd ever met you in person, right? Yeah we did. And then I met you in person last year in Oklahoma and then a bunch of stuff happened. But before we get to the bunch of stuff happening, just catch us up. Real quick nutshell how did you receive this thing? Just like super, like you have a whole episode of it, but it's been a while. Catch us up okay.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it's uh, it's been a minute, so it's been about two years. Uh, I guess, since freedom for me and I think where I left off was just having this huge revelation of love that affected me very personally and the big takeaway ended up being my ability to see and picture Jesus going through situations with me, and that just stands out to me because of basically what we're about to get into. But I kind of love that early time. It's pretty special, like when you embrace it for yourself and you're just kind of have that space to test it out and and understand what freedom means, you know, for you personally, for me, and I love that time.
Speaker 2:It was not too long before, like I started this weird thing in my mind where I almost wanted to test it and really see if it was effectual. I don't recommend that notion necessarily. I think that's kind of a weird thing to do, but it was like I really wanted to know because I knew that I wasn't accepting it for myself unless it was truly like something I personally believed in and stood on. And that ended up being true. But then I wanted to almost know, like when rubber meets the road, is this still it or is just you know, my? Did I learn anything that was going to change the way I interacted with different circumstances, things in my life, people, challenges, and? And that wasn't too far off?
Speaker 2:I mean, there was kind of a you know a little time where I was just settling into my, my relationship with this, but uh, um, yeah it, it came down the line. That was we recorded probably um November, and then January we had a group come through. That was super fun right before you had gotten there and that was super impactful for me because of just some things that I had been dealing with as a mom, and the encouragement I got that weekend was something I kind of carried with me. And then, yeah, and then you were there in March and things kicked up at that point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, did you ever imagine like you've heard the stories. Before you heard my story, you heard what might have happened with. I don't know if you heard Harold's story about. You know, when people grab onto this, sometimes Other people don't like it, and so you'd heard that. Did you consider, oh, this could happen to us. Or was that a far away thought?
Speaker 2:It was a little far off. But at the same time I've always felt like Wes, kind of like I don't know. He always had something in him that got people thinking outside Like he's an outside of the box thinker, I put it that way and that got people thinking outside like he's an outside of the box thinker, I put it that way and that stretches people. And within Adventism it is hard for people to be stretched with certain ideas and things and I would even say traditions that you know we're used to. And so I a little bit expected it somewhere.
Speaker 2:I just didn't think that I would be along for that same journey. I thought maybe more of the heat would be along for that same journey. I thought maybe more of the heat would be on him and to be honest, it was definitely more on him because he was the one out front. But this time, yeah, I didn't see it coming too much, but I, around that weekend, definitely was picking up on yeah, this is headed in a in a direction real fast that I knew would affect us long term one way or the other. I didn't know which way it would go and I didn't know how it would play out, but definitely knew that weekend, Definitely said it that weekend.
Speaker 1:What was happening? Just that I was coming, and then things started kicking up Like what was actually going on things started kicking up Like what was actually going on.
Speaker 2:It was, yeah, it was like, once you were there, I realized, um, and we were starting to hear more from the, the leaders, just like their hesitancy, and I think that was the moment that I was like, ah, okay, um, and there was a lot of pushback now from people, um, in the local churches and stuff that were hearing stuff. And the thing that was just forefront for me and that became so frustrating throughout this whole thing was just the amount of it was the misinformation that was just circulating. It wasn't ever like we were having to defend ourselves but that but that, for some reason, just created a real frustration for me personally to to really, um, just settle with in that time.
Speaker 1:What were the common things that people were thinking that weren't true?
Speaker 2:Um, it seemed to be, I remember Wes saying on on his cause. I wasn't. I wasn't, thankfully not having to hear too much of it. I was hearing most of the positive. I was hearing from inside our church. I was hearing from the people like Emily, and was directly interacting with some of our friends. Um, so I was hearing like just maybe a little like wow, when the group came, they were.
Speaker 2:Our church was like these people are really on fire. They seem to have their own lingo. They're a little, maybe too happy about this. I was hearing like that side of things. Uh, wes was hearing more of the wait. What do they believe? Like you know, some confusion around forgiveness, confession, repentance, uh, the Holy flesh stuff. Uh, once, they've always saved things like that, so, yeah, but nothing was ever to clarify, like directed back at us, like we had said something that they, you know, had or hadn't agreed with, but there was just general rumblings you know how churches get going and it just seemed like they were just stirring each other up within the churches. There's a lot of people that you know people looked up to and respected, that were saying some things off you know about the organization or whatnot, and people were running with it and the rumor mills just just really started spreading. And you know, all in all it wasn't. Actually, when we look back now we realized that it was actually a very small contingency. They were just really loud, if that makes sense, for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so after that weekend I mean, how fast did things go, what happened?
Speaker 2:go. What happened Um it. You know I don't this is weird, but the timeline is just not. Those three months for us felt so long I can't explain like we were lost in time. I think when you are being we knew uh they would. They kept telling us like this isn't about you.
Speaker 2:Um, at that point they would say that, um, but the emotional effect that we were uh feeling at the time was so painful that it felt like I can remember Wes just getting involved in like projects around the house and around our home just to have something to take like that his mind off it, the nervous energy for it. Like we got a chicken coop during that time he built, you know, we got a playground. He was just into different projects and stuff to literally like almost help pass the time, because for a lot of this we were being told to not defend ourselves or say anything. That was uh so tough too, um, I don't know. You know they were trying to come to him and another pastor and have some conversations at different points about um things, but they were never um really ever saying anything to the pastors, like your job is in jeopardy or something, but we felt like that the whole time and it was just unnerving. And then, like, when people people started directly like lying about things that and saying we said this, then it was really hard to just function day in and day out and just be normal and, um, you know, and handle all the stuff that you're already doing and and church life and family and and do it well. So you know, we kind of watched like this life in Oklahoma, that we love this ministry that was blossoming, like. If you listen to Wes's recent episode, you know that like our church was coming along, there was people walking in freedom and it was so cool to do like life with them in freedom and it was so cool to do like life with them.
Speaker 2:And it was really hard when I was watching Wes, like take this on and just really feel all the feels, um, of the ramifications of what people, the way they were going about it, because it was not like they were coming to him and saying you said this, can we sit down and discuss it? Or you know, there those weren't happening, but we knew that, um, we were just being attacked just from association. And so there was just a lot of times where you know, I remember him just struggling and our son definitely saw it too, and because of that I definitely felt like I don't know what like, for instance, like walking in and breakfast and then just seeing him like crumpled over the counter and feeling like how am I going to pick him up off the floor and how are we moving on with today and how are we functioning? There was a time where I knew I was not able to process this because I had to be the one to just keep the, the, the functioning of our family, moving forward, um, try to keep it as normal for our two kids as possible and, uh, try to be a support when I could. We had a Bible worker there that was really struggling because she was being told, uh, you know, you can't do your Bible study, and then she was like, why am I here? We were just feeling it on all sides and we weren't the only only pastor. I'm sure I hope he'll get on and give his Oklahoma testimony if you want to hear from TJ, but you know it's, it's, it was a lot.
Speaker 2:And also that that time I guess gave us the ability to kind of trauma bond with some of those friends and get that support that we we needed, but our church was very outside of the loop of what was going on during this time and for some reason, uh, that was another thing that made it especially difficult, and so I don't know for me, I just wanted to to fight back.
Speaker 2:I felt like it was a very unfair situation. It felt so strange to, like um, have this misunderstanding and not be able to go in and like hold a meeting. I would ask Wes, and I would say, okay, if they call you in, let me just come. Let me just come and explain to them like what you're going through, cause I don't really feel like they know and that was um, you know something that he was just like no, I gotta do this. And I was like okay, but it just felt like all these different times and ways my hands were being tied, yet it was affecting me so much that I don't know. I felt like the way people were going about it on the outside of Oklahoma, you know, with like the videos and stuff and chopping it up. I, and those moments want to be like I can make you say you know something that you're not saying as well, Like I wanted to consider like just different ways of combating it.
Speaker 1:And you're like, I'm going to be a YouTube video editor.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can make a career out of this, I mean. But you know, in all actuality, I didn't want to. I didn't even want this tension to be there, did you?
Speaker 1:did you ever have a temptation to be like is this worth it? Like, did you ever think that?
Speaker 2:I like that question? I don't think I did. Thankfully, there came a point later where I really thought, like during this, that I was failing a test that was being put in front of me, because there were moments where I don't feel like I was handling it perfectly, because there was, like being so new to freedom, there was all these feelings I mean you're talking like some straight up anger and different things that I thought, you know, had just kind of uh, been put aside for me that I had had dealt with and it was really hard to lose control, like, and that was the thing. We were out of control for months. We weren't able to determine if we were, you know, going to be able to stay, and what school our son was going to go to, and if we were going to have to sell our house and all those type of nuanced things. That, uh, it it was definitely you know layers for me that I was um dealing with.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I recently, like on Michaela's episode, she had talked about um and it was something that I think the reason it hit me what she was saying was because I didn't understand that these feelings didn't necessarily equate to what my experience was and it. It didn't mean I had lost any security in my relationship or that I was, you know. I just felt like maybe, maybe I'm not free, like you have these weird thoughts that go through your mind. And she had said something about, like how we usually say, like feelings aren't Lord. You know, jesus is, and that's true. And she went on to say something about giving people space to like, feel their feelings. And I didn't give myself that, and so I I, you know was willing to do the podcast, because I just felt like there's people that aren't new to this or in different places, and just not not even knowing something as simple as that can really, um, just help in those early times, because you don't know what it's going to look like, you kind of have to experience it.
Speaker 2:But for me, that was a a turning point, because I was thinking for some reason that being on this journey I don't know why like as if it was going to be almost like painless, and that's just not true. And that was something else that she had touched on Like spiritual maturity is not painless, and I think that sometimes, when you're hearing people who have been established in freedom for a while talk about their experiences. Everything seems very retrospect, like from the past.
Speaker 2:I used to be a porn addict. I used to be this, they would say I used to, and so for me, I was thinking like, um, what about when you're feeling these things and is there, you know, I? I guess I was just confused a little bit about where I stood, and um, that came a little bit later. I had to still go through a few things before I came on the other side of that and realized, like you know, wes was just like we have to act with such integrity so that, you know, they can't say these things about us, and it was hard really really hard.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the idea that this is painless. I don't think I know anybody who's walked into freedom that didn't experience some kind of serious kind of pain afterwards, because I don't even think we really know. Like feelings aren't, lord? Jesus is Lord. Before that, I think my feelings were just leading and I didn't even consider it. It's just, if I felt this, I wasn't trying to regulate, I wasn't trying to line up my feelings with truth, I was just feeling and then not acting in the way I would want to act. And so that doesn't mean, now that Jesus is Lord, that we still don't feel stuff Right, but we do have a call to act a certain way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and, and we should give ourselves the time and space to process it appropriately. And it's not just a matter of like shoving it down, like I shouldn't feel this, and then you know, because that just brings that guilt and shame, and I think that was the cycle that I was, I was in and so, um, yeah, I, you have to get Wes's story on, all like the details, I think, of the ins and outs of those three months. It's hard for me to rehash them, just timeline wise and and emotionally like, but it definitely came down the line and got to a point where it was. You know, wes had heard from the Lord like I'll bless you if you stay, I'll bless you if you go. But I think we started to realize and it wasn't easy, but we started to accept the fact that for us and our journey, like it was appropriate to move on. And we had heard actually Harold has shared some of his story with us that was helpful during this time. I definitely got like resentful that the other pastor that was very heavily involved in this, that they got to stay. So that was another thing that I was personally dealing with, I know. I think that, uh, when I went to therapy.
Speaker 2:It really, um was the first time that I started opening up and talking and and understanding, like my emotions and dealing with just some of the things that my family had been through, because some of the other tough stuff that made it really difficult was, um, the way that it affected our son, like, coming in um at night. He was, wes is five, but he he was four, turning five. During this time he came in, you know, he come in the night and tell us that he was, you know, just so anxious and using words that we hadn't really given him language for yet. Uh, we tried to always deal with his, you know, emotions and stuff and he was definitely watching, you know, was crumbling and he was always, uh, seeing him crying at different points, and so it during that time became a real struggle to then also leave a church. Like, we were very happy in Oklahoma City and I think that is important to what's coming next for me, because I appreciated so many people there and it wasn't just like that. We like the area, like I I know for me I was. It was a cool thing for Wes and I to be in agreement that this was somewhere we could spend long-term because there wasn't a place that we had said that before.
Speaker 2:Um, but at the same time it was just a difficult thing knowing like this was the only church family that you know Jamie had known and like this was church family that you know Jamie had known and like this was the church that you know Clay was dedicated and all that means a lot. But like the relationships were really what was driving a lot of this. Like at VBS they, when I was pregnant, they gave me a little onesie for Clay, like they were so my kids were so loved and so well cared for there that I just appreciated the people and the church family for that so much. I haven't experienced it before or since in the way that I had there and um, so when it came down to like us getting ready to let the church know, you know, one of the things that our head elder had said was like I wish you had opened up and let us, you know, fight for you and let us know.
Speaker 2:And when he said that I don't know if he said on his podcast or said it to us I just remember like I would just break down and cry and just think like how much people cared for us and you know that that definitely comes out even later as we are like actually leaving the church. But during that time, like I wanted to West to just say open up to the church and and let them, cause I knew they would, I knew that and they all said it after it wasn't like one person said, oh, we would have fought for you, like that was such a beautiful thing, but it was like too little, too late by the time they learned of it they said can, can we stand up?
Speaker 1:Can we write letters? What would you want us to do? What do you want us to do? And I just remember saying I, I don't. I'm not going to tell you to do anything. If you would like to do something, that will be coming from you, but I can't. And I just felt like I couldn't do that. I couldn't, I couldn't just be like you know, I imagine if it was happening to you and not Wes, I don't Like there's something about you rallying the troops and getting someone to fight for you. I know you've been in a position where someone's losing their job and they should be and they rally the troops and they get their. You know the horde of people angry for them and it doesn't work. They end up looking bad, they end up looking desperate. They end up looking desperate. And I know because I had seen that before. I was like that's not going to be my story, like I didn't beg to come here, I'm not going to beg to stay. If they don't want me here, then I'll leave, taking a real quick break.
Speaker 1:Don't fast forward. We are going to tell you about what's going on September 26th and 27th. If you're listening to this. There's still time to come out to Denver. I'm getting my airline ticket, like today, the 26th, the 27th we're going to be in Littleton and so far there's been like 70 plus people who have signed up. It is going to be a gospel party and we want you to be there. We want you to just. There's something. It's cool being on the Bible studies, but what's much cooler is being there in person. So come out to Denver and let's vibe out together.
Speaker 1:Also, go to loverealityorg. Slash, give and partner with us. Let's get this gospel going. It has been going. People's lives are changing and it's through you guys and your faithfulness, and so we'd love for you guys to continue doing that and we'll keep going. Love y'all, appreciate y'all. Let's get back to Lauren and the episode. Yeah, it was still really hard. So when you found out, like when Wes was like I think we're going to go when that hit you, were you? Were you already like assuming, yeah, this is what's going to happen, or did it? Was it tough to hear that? Were you in agreement with him right away?
Speaker 2:I don't remember I had so many repressed feelings during this time. It was weird, but it was survival mode. It was definitely traumatizing and when you are in trauma you are in fight or flight and I, I think that I was in agreement, but I was still upset and because I know that, even though God had said I'll bless you if you stay and I'll bless you if you go, I felt like if he stayed he wasn't going to stay in ministry. I mean, these people were out for blood and were, I think, going to keep pressing and I think leaving helped damper that down a little bit. I know there's some stuff resurfacing for other pastors but yeah, it was a tough time, like when we were A tough time, like when we were interviewing and they were having that like secret personnel executive committee. You know that wasn't about us but instantly became about Wes's job. You know I was very thankful to have that, but it was also nerve wracking. It was just like everything felt surreal. That's the best word that I can use to describe those last few weeks. It was just like how am I putting stuff in boxes right now? Like explaining to my neighbor, like this is what happened and like explaining it to people was so strange because they were just like I don't get it and I was like I don't either. I truly did not know really how to say it, even to my family. They're like they're saying what, but did you do you know? And it was like and you're gonna, you're gonna have to move, like your, but your church doesn't want this, like I know it's. And it was all so strange.
Speaker 2:And, um, at this point, I think our elders knew, um, I'll give you an example of like how, um, I think just emotionally stunted I was because, like, when Wes uh, you know he's losing, he's having panic, full-blown panic attacks and stuff at this point, and when he goes up in front of the church and literally has one at the pulpit. I was in the baby room, I believe, with probably both my kiddos and we're playing and everything. And all of a sudden I I hear him stop and I was like hold on, I asked you to be like to be quiet and I like listen, I'm like what is going on? Then I hear like this weird noise and that was him sobbing into the microphone and, um, I had given announcements that that morning. Um, this was really one of the the last, you know weeks that we were there and uh, and then, but like, like nothing was going on, like people did not know. People like afterwards came to me and were like how were you up there Just so, chipper and doing your job?
Speaker 2:I enjoy, uh, public speaking and uh, as long as it's not children's story for some reason and uh, and, and they were just like we had no idea. It just kind of hit them like a ton of bricks and and they still didn't know, because Wes couldn't get a word out during this point. Like he's not telling them anything. It's not like the church knows. He's sobbing from the front and the church comes around him and next thing I know I'm like grabbing my babies and running to the sanctuary and I just see them basically in this gigantic group.
Speaker 2:Hug, wes is saying nothing for minutes and minutes and it's feeling like a very long time. He's trying to say different things at different points. Um, and the church is just there. They're so tight, they're all in there, and then they just start praying for him and at that point we could open up and he told him a little bit, but it was still like they were just so confused and um, and I am just there, no tears, wes balling his eyes out, and I'm like, yeah, this is what's going on, this is what's happening, and and it was just strange for me, but I was needing, I felt like to hold it together for my family. I'm telling you it, it felt like I needed to do this for Wes, I needed to do this, uh, for my kids, and I didn't realize what I was doing, but that was definitely, uh, what happened, and it wasn't until I would say, um, yeah, during therapy and talking that out, and then, like, actually leaving that. All of a sudden, I hit my low. It came after this. It came once we were gone.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's um, this is all very sad. It's all very sad. And why? Why is it sad? Well, because we love people and because the truth has changed our lives and on this side of it it's liable to be horrible and our heart hurts for these other people. Because we can't understand sometimes, like how could they do? Like, from your background you come from a little bit more of a traditional background Could you see where they were coming from, but then just not understand how they could like, yeah, how, what could you do there with that?
Speaker 2:yeah, how, what could you do there with that? Um, with that I I felt like even during it, like that they were just trying to do what they felt like was right, that they were doing stuff what they thought was in the name of truth and, unfortunately, that they use that to excuse so much inappropriate behavior, lying, slandering, the unwillingness to just come sit down and talk. We're told he was a snake. Why would you sit down and talk with a deceptive? You know this and that like horrible stuff, like we're talking top level spouses of very people very high up, who are saying horrible things, doing, you know, manipulative things behind the scenes to orchestrate exactly what they wanted instead of being willing to hear it. And I think the reason it's so was so sad for me was because of the misinformation Like I kept going, man, if they knew, and also the reason it wasn't. It does have a bad look, I think if you're like please help defend me.
Speaker 2:And but so Wes was also trying to protect the people that were newly walking in freedom, like they were. Our church was coming along with the gospel. We had had months, maybe more years, to establish like a beautiful foundation and people were receptive to that, and so you know I love that his heart was to protect these, these people in that, and so it was just kind of a sad set of circumstances and one of the things that really touched me was, um, when we were interviewing with Texas, several times, two different people on two different occasions um use the word, um safe with us safe, and I cannot tell you how responsive I was to someone telling me we need to get you here so you'll be safe, like for me, I, for the first time in months, felt like, like just almost a verbal embrace, and I was so thankful, um for that notion. And even though, after we got here, um to Texas and I definitely hit the lowest of the I felt like of this experience, um, it's still kind of just just held me and our, I was reeling a lot, I was mourning, uh walking away from you know, our, our friends. I had some really, really good friendships and, um, some of them had, you know, uh, started walking in truth and that was so cool.
Speaker 2:And, uh, one of the first weeks that we were at our new church, the first week that I was at my new church, that's that matters. Um, I'm walking into the sanctuary and now like the tears are just ready to flow, but I'm just still not there. Uh, and I walk in with my kids. My sister was in town, my, her mother-in-law uh, we go to church and we've got the kids and we're in the back and we're at a brand new church. My um, nephew and son are like chatting about dividing up the toys because my sister and I, uh, we're sitting across the aisle couldn't sit together.
Speaker 2:As we're trying to figure that out, and as they were doing this, this lady like snapped at me or my kids and told us to be quiet and that was all I needed to be. The flood works just opened and I was just like I'm done, I'm walking out of here. I am so done, and I just felt like this will never be home. This is not you. Like I'm done, I'm walking out of here. I am so done, and I just felt like this will never be home. This is not. You know, I don't feel comfortable here.
Speaker 2:I just hit like this point where I understood what I had left at my church. At my church, somebody would have gotten my kid and be like let me help you with the toys, can you want to come with me? Let's let your mommy listen to the sermon. It just would have been so different. And so I'm. I'm beside myself and I, thankfully, we came to a church with a team of pastors and pastors wives. I'd never been a part of that before. We had been very, uh, you know, on our own now, and especially when we were in Western Oklahoma. And so all of a sudden I start ding, ding, ding during the week getting these texts and I was like, oh, what has Wes done? Because you know, I'm not reaching out, like I'm not reaching out to anybody to tell them about this. I'm already feeling embarrassed for, like a very big reaction to something so small. But you understand, like where I'm coming from If you hear this side of the story, like it was just all this pent up emotion. Obviously it wasn't that lady. Um, she didn't really do anything wrong. And, uh, the pastor's wife started just just coming around me and, um, and it was a, it was a beautiful moment.
Speaker 2:In the next Sabbath the pastor got up at church and he gave this two slides Uh, they don't usually do slides except for announcements up on the screen and it was just this empty church and he did this powerful segment on what church would be like if there were no children. And I, honestly, was so embarrassed. Second Sabbath they were bringing us up on stage I'm pretty much front row with my kids and the way the church is situated you cannot sit. There's not a spot in the sanctuary that you can sit where there's not 360 eyes on you, um, and we have to be up front and I wanted to literally fall through the floor.
Speaker 2:I felt so embarrassed. I felt like everybody knew it was about me, but how would they know they didn't? But I felt very uh again. But how would they know they didn't? But I felt very uh again, loved and and thought of and I thought you know, wow, to do this at such a big church and to just say we are here for your kids, we love your kids, we're, we're, you know, in supportive of of you guys, and uh, that that was great, that was an interesting thing. And then I was able to sit with that for a while and while we got kind of settled into into taxes. But it's funny how, like, I definitely feel loved when my kids feel very loved and I noticed, you know, For sure, swing.
Speaker 1:When did you find out that you had been suppressing all this stuff? Was it when the therapy? When you're like oh, oh, I haven't, I've just been shoving this down I couldn't even open up super well in therapies.
Speaker 2:Uh, I was going to a place that wes and uh, yeah, one of the other pastors were going to, and uh, I was when I realized that, um, I don't know, I just felt like she's hearing it from them and I'm always in the back of my head Like, is this so silly to be talking about? People are going through way worse stuff and I thought what about her other clients? She must think I am so silly for dealing with something so petty and to have like all these emotions. So here I'm downplaying it the entire time and I don't know why I do that, but that's absolutely what I did at that point. So I think it came to a head Definitely once we got to Texas, that weekend kind of passed and then I had a very big moment. So we moved sometime in the summer and then in October we went to a little get together that was happening and this was, you know, just an intentional gathering of the Missouri.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was.
Speaker 2:So we, we head out, we go, and I'm excited, I'm pumped. I always like seeing people in person. It seems like there's some big things that happen for me, uh, with the face-to-face stuff or when somebody really sets out to like just really go below the surface because clearly I'm not very good at being vulnerable and willing to go there, but I will, I can get there, but it's usually a Holy spirit thing. And so, um, that night we kind of got the kids settled in their little cabin and Wes had art was out there, he's yakking, he's having a ball, um, and I he was like you should, you should really come, come talk. And I was like, yeah, the kids, you know they're sleeping. Um, so I think we had like a monitor or something.
Speaker 2:I went over there and just the fact that I was willing to get out of the cabin and be willing to do that this night, wes was like so surprised, I went over, sat at a table and I sat intentionally with some people that I knew I could just open up to and I knew would like go there straight away, and I didn't realize that, like I would sit down and boom, the conversation stopped. They turned it towards me. They asked me how it's going, and again, the waterworks. I start like telling them. And one of the things that had happened the weekend that you were there was I had been praying with someone just asking the Holy Spirit to you know, be with us and and reveal himself, and one of the pictures that he had seen for me, um was and this is just a segue story here but uh, a dragon fly and um, it became oddly significant to my story. So that was like back in March. I didn't quite understand it.
Speaker 2:Um, and now here we are, october of this year, and when we were unpacking boxes into our new house, I stopped, jamie, and I was like Whoa, do you see that? And there was dragonflies just flying, like three of them, around and around and around, and they would not leave. And so it caught my attention. And here I had been kind of trying to put the puzzle together earlier Like this I don't want to read anything into it, that it's not. And even that first situation I was like okay, cool, awesome. What does that mean? I don't know. Well, then we go and we're trying to decide if we should buy a car, and that's a big decision for me. I was just like, yeah, I don't think we should. We just moved, we are renting, we didn't buy a house, so it was on the table. But it just felt like, yeah, maybe not, even though I had, um, had a, uh, a fender bender when I was had just been in Oklahoma. So I felt like we should.
Speaker 2:I was at the uh car lot and um, wes was feeling very impressed too, and I didn't know at the time, but service was out everywhere and, um, I was on my phone trying to figure out like how I'm getting home from this car dealership. That's 30 minutes away and I'm in Dallas. Like I'm in a new city. I don't know how to go, not to mention I am terrible with directions. Like I have no clue if I don't have my GPS. Like I am not, I don't think getting home, even though I knew it was like basically a highway and a few turns. I just know that I'm like lost. My, my former church, would definitely attest to this. Like I don't think she's getting home.
Speaker 2:And I'm sitting there trying to do this and here comes this dragonfly we are across town, mind you lands on the hood of the car that we're potentially going to buy. Sits there, I notice it and it flies off. I'm like you gotta be kidding. I cannot tell you the amount of peace that flooded me. I thought what in the world Like this is feeling so silly to me? But I'm like it feels significant also and I don't want to downplay it. I'm like the Holy Spirit can reach me however he wants to reach me. It's been a song before. It can be something different this time and I just let that be.
Speaker 2:And the day we were going to Missouri to this event, that same thing happened again, where we walked outside and this dragonfly comes at my head and I was like Lord, you got something in store for me. When did you know it? I'll just tell you this because this is just beyond me and I don't even know how to explain it. I realize it can sound like a kooky story, but yesterday was it Monday yesterday. Yeah, I'm like Lord. I just don't know what I'm going to say or how I'd frame this podcast. I don't want it to sound like a pity party. I want it to not shame anyone that has done or said anything. I really just want it to be about how you've worked through all this.
Speaker 2:I'm sitting inside on my couch and I see this dragonfly huge, mind you, I almost thought it was a hummingbird come down and it is just at this part of the window. I could see him. It's off. I was like Lord, what? Like okay. So I tell I'm telling them, like, this story at the table. They're, they're hearing it, they're loving it. It's fine, I'm, I'm feeling weird saying it, but it was just a a thing where I was like okay, I'm, I'm just gonna, I'm just I had that out there. So it was like I'm just going to open up about what's been going on and I'm just going to tell you and I can barely say it, I'm like crying.
Speaker 2:I did kind of try to tell them, um, and it was probably pretty messy, I don't know, um, but it was a chance for me to talk to them and I was talking to Ame and we were um, discussing just all like the fields, and she was like you really need to talk this out, even even though we're talking now, she's like there's so much to unpack here and there was a song playing and she's like you hear that song? Right? I was like do you know? That's part of my last story. And she was like but did you hear the song? I said I did. I just didn't know if anybody else noticed it. It was just this, this song that was playing and we, we had unpacked it and not to over like think those things.
Speaker 2:It was just this moment where everyone came around me and started praying for me and in that moment I think it was Jenea that had said and had told another guy there too that you haven't lost anything. Those words were from God. For me it was because I felt like I had been robbed robbed of anything good, robbed of ministry, like good stuff in my life. But I felt like my friendships that I had established there were so dear to me. I had made mom friends in my 40s with that had kids that my kids adored, that had husbands that my husband was willing to hang out with. We did stuff collectively. I had never had this in my life and I lost that. I lost this church family that loved my husband and me and my kids.
Speaker 2:It was the first time I didn't have church dread. I don't know if you have ever experienced that. I just always, I, I just always did, especially as a pastor's wife. You're walking in, you're walking on eggshells, because you never know what that step is going to bring. They happy with your husband. They not they good to you. They usually love me, but you know, you just don't know, and this was the first church that I had not had that and I loved it and uh, ooh, and God used that to break through my scarcity mindset.
Speaker 2:Like I have got you, even through this. I'm going to be with you and that's why I felt like those things that I kept trying to shrug off him being like I got you this home that you can be with your family and be safe. I've got you this car that's going to take you to the places I need to get you to around Dallas. I've got these people in your life. You know, these dragonfly moments that are going to help you confess those lies that are have been tying you down for months. I've got this message that you can share. Like it felt all of a sudden, like this full circle moment that I was like thank you, thank you Lord, like that I had a story in this because I had probably been just with that victim mentality, um, and so those, those words were so special to me and, if you know, like that group and uh, ms Brenda has been very significant for me. She came behind me and I can feel her like hug in my neck and she prays over me. She's like I'm praying that God restores those friendships to you and gives you, you know, these, these friends um in in Dallas.
Speaker 2:And I think a lot of that at that point was just faith going forward. But it was like all of a sudden I was reestablished in my freedom and and Wes had asked me on the way home, how does it feel to be reestablished in your freedom? I was like so good, because here's what happened that night. I went back to the kids and I'm laying there and I'm I'm kind of on cloud nine. We granted we had talked for like hours and hours after this. You know how it is, people are buzzing, they're psyched. For me, everybody by the next morning absolutely knows what's happening. But that night Jameson threw up in his slumber pod and in his bed and we were gone the next morning. So God had clearly orchestrated. That's why I said it was even a miracle that I was willing to come out that night and even opened up, because this was the thing that unlocked for me. And God showed up so powerfully for me because and everybody said that the next morning they were like you know, like this, this is for you, like this is a God thing, you need this. And I knew I did.
Speaker 2:And from that point on, everything changed for me and how I related to the previous experience. I was able to reframe a lot and and go from feeling like this was a test that God was putting me through that I needed to pass and if I didn't pass it, it's going to bring it back around. I remember sharing that with Eddie because I was worried Great, this is just going to come back for me. And what I like forgot from my previous testimony like was that this wasn't like something he was just putting out there, like I hope you don't fail it. It was like he was Jesus, was walking through this with me every step of the way.
Speaker 2:And that's the beauty of the gospel is just like you are so you can be secure. You don't have to, you know, just be in your fields. Like you can just know where you, where you stand, and uh, yeah, so that Texas community started building and, uh, we started working with the young people here. They're really young adults and I connected with a girl that was very similar to my upbringing and just coming out of that very like legalistic side and she was on kind of beginning of her freedom journey. Actually, you met her Sabbath. I hope she'll be on here soon, one day, because it's been incredible to watch some of these people come alongside and when we were leaving, there were people that were like we hate to see you go and one of the things that they would always follow that up with was but there are people in Texas that clearly need to hear the gospel and he need to hear this message from you.
Speaker 2:They tell Wes that and they tell me that, cause a lot of times I feel like I'm on the, I'm on the sidelines, uh in a lot of ways, watching the kids and after the kids. You know, uh, and he's kind of out there doing the Bible studies and all the um at Bible studies, but he's the one giving the Bible studies and and all that. So, yeah, I I started, uh just seeing Texas for a different thing. I had switched my mind. I realized I was a little judgy of judgy people, because I was just so sensitive to that and I was able to go from feeling like there were hard people in our lives to like that's an opportunity for the gospel to intersect with their lives. And it was just a big switch for me that I hadn't realized. I also, at that point, was able to release the fear of just Wes speaking out Every Sabbath. I was like, what's he going to say? Are we going to move? You know just this, just tiptoe-y feeling. And God brought that around too, and even more recently. These things are easier to talk about when there's like a lot of space and time gone by.
Speaker 2:But recently we got the opportunity to go back to Oklahoma camp meeting and that was kind of like ripping the bandaid off. It had been a full year. Wes wouldn't let us go back to our home church, even though they were begging us, and I was asking probably week two, when are we going back? And I incessantly and relentlessly asked we're three hours away. Um, I wanted to be there all the time. It was like my, my safe haven. And uh, we got to go back and, if I'm being honest, I'm still a little bit processing, um, what happened at camp meeting and the healing that that took place. But it was a cool experience for us. It was great. It was great.
Speaker 2:Uh, I was nervous, friday going into it and by Sabbath I was just had the run-ins that were going to be awkward and, on Sabbath, just able to enjoy and reconnect with the people that missed us, loved us and had been affected by our ministry and what we stood for and what we were living, and to watch how, you know, god had been moving and working in their lives and hearing it and seeing the space and and reconnecting with the people and their new pastor. And, uh, and you know, camp meeting had been pretty special to us. Uh, just for like family reasons. Jamie learned to sleep through the night there, he learned how to walk there, and then this last camp meeting got on a two wheeler and took off, and so it's always been like super special.
Speaker 2:But, um, you know, some of those conversations were interesting and complex, uh, but I feel like if it wasn't for, um, god being really true and present in my life, um, I don't know, I don't know that I would have even been willing to walk into the room with some of these people after the way we were treated and especially the ones that you really felt like we're friends. There's a lot of ambiguous people that I barely knew their names that had wrecked so much havoc on us. That was like we don't even know you, you've never even had a conversation with us. Do you realize there are people on the other side of this? Do you know? You know the effects that your, your words are having when you get up from the pulpit and say some of these things against us? Uh, and those uh little interactions. I even had one with the conference president, uh, and he, you know, told us, told me, that the door was always open and, um, you know, not that he's president anymore. There's somebody else in there now.
Speaker 2:But, wow, I was thinking this is a a gorgeous thing that God does with in terms of redemption and how he, I felt like the forgiveness, uh, and the ability to forgive is such a gift. It's a gift for me. It's like it's not about yes, it's great for them that I don't hang on to that anymore and to go from such a broken place to like just being able to show up in the cradle room room with some of these ladies and just, you know, be loving towards them and them be the same way back, like it. It felt really, really good. Uh, yeah, and it's not perfect.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure these people aren't still feeling the way they are, who knows? I don't want to really judge their motives. I just there was a lot of takeaways that I learned of how I did not want to act and behave, um, and I hope that they're growing. You know, it's been a year. Maybe they've realized some things, maybe they haven't had a chance to share their side of it. Maybe I'm not seeing the way that they're seeing it I. I just trust that God's got them too, and that was a big learning piece of this. Uh, I can remember the first time when Wes was talking about um, regarding no man according to the flesh, I was like, yeah, like, yeah, like. Why would you do that, though? Because clearly, clearly, you know um, but that that's a a truly miraculous thing to be able to do, and it's not that they aren't. You're just not considering them that way regarding no man in the flesh.
Speaker 1:It could also be that we don't regard them from our old patterns, so maybe we see them from a new lens because we have a new lens. It's not to say like if someone is an unbeliever that we're like, oh no, they're a believer, but we are believers and so we see them for their value. We see them for who they actually are, because we are in the spirit. And I guess what is it about God that allows you to come from this pain and still feel pain and yet keep no record of wrongs and move on in a loving way? What is it about God that's allowing you to do that?
Speaker 2:I think it was just the way he treated me and how I felt so, so loved and by him, and, um, and just realizing that, yeah, there's, that's what they need. They need to be shown this. They're not going to be told it there, you know, they just have to see it lived out and they're going to believe what they're going to believe, uh, about us, about love, reality, but, um, it's, it's just provides a beautiful chance for the Holy spirit to kind of, you know, show up there. And I can remember, like even back, uh, right when we moved to Texas and I don't know if you remember this Wes got on a internet church and announced to everyone that God had told him that it was time to move on from feeling this way and that he needed to get up and and start living. And I was like, whoa cause, now that you know my story, um, you know that I, you know that I was just starting to get into the fields of it and I thought my window had closed, but it just felt like watching him do that and being like, okay, I've had the time to feel the process and we're moving on. Then God was working on my own timeline and so just coming around to that.
Speaker 2:I I think the beautiful truth that has started to just really stand out and that I would say is just like the bottom line for me now is that freedom is not a one-time event, it's a journey, and that played out just in the way that I knew and thought it could. And he showed up and he proved himself and it wasn't about me and like trying to stay hang on and be faithful and pass this test. It was him just with me in all of this. That makes it bearable, that makes me not only be able to forgive, but want to forgive, to release them of that, to want to let go of my internal pain. And, yeah, so it just became about letting him walk it out with me and him wanting to be there and go through it with me, and I just feel so thankful for, uh, that experience and I don't wish it on anyone, um, you know, but at the same time, to be able to see God show up in the way he did, that that's, that's a cool and powerful thing.
Speaker 1:So we were, we were hanging out on Sabbath afternoon and we were, you know, talking a little bit of this, a little bit of that, and then it got into some gospel stuff and it was super fun and I was just, you know, after considering your whole story and hearing this, you know there's been some tough stuff in there. But what is your foundation changed at all is are you more firm in the foundation?
Speaker 2:that is the gospel, that that is where you live from yeah, um, and that I guess that is a cool thing because, you know, there's like one of two things that can really happen. It can really shake you or just kind of make you a little bit more solid. And, yeah, I am very thankful for just the knowledge that I've gained. And, like you know, throughout this thing, this experience, people will let you down, disappoint you, but I and I, I felt like that. I felt like I talked to God a lot about that, um, about how, you know, some of these people were acting, but the one thing that was for sure solid the whole time was me and him. We were good, and I think that is such a difference of this wishy-washy, flip-flopped experience that I used to have, especially because if it had been all dependent on me, on behaviors that I had on, on things like that, uh, it would have just been this emotional rollercoaster and not that it wasn't emotionally, but like of where he and I stood, that it wasn't emotionally but like of where he and I stood. And so that was like, uh, the thing that for me still felt rock solid and I think it was bonding probably a bit for Wes and I. Uh, it also made me, especially just after the Missouri, one just really appreciate community and understanding, like the need to lean into that and the power of confession. That was so significant for me and I just love that. You know, God, I think sometimes, like you know, if we hadn't, you know, learned about the gospel, this would not have happened. But I don't wish for that and so I think that that's a cool thing and there's been a lot of people that have seen us come through it and hopefully it's just more reaffirming that, yeah, the gospel is a transformative thing. It's not just knowledge, even though that's where it starts. The moment I decided to believe it for myself was a definitive point that I can look back on and I love that. But that's just not the end. All be all and that's what's so beautiful about these, these nuances, and that's why there's always more to learn. That's why I'm still like a sponge and wanting to soak it up and wanting to, you know, share it, uh, when I can, and I don't feel like I have all the that many opportunities to do that just in my sphere of influence now, but it's been cool even just to have like a closer connection through this.
Speaker 2:There was a lot of just guilt of feeling like I should be serving in our new church at certain points. And I can tell you that I was able to go to Holy Spirit and just ask. It was like I had lost that somewhere from the beginning of my new experience of this and just being so in tune and touch with him and then going, oh wait, like this is something I can take to him and bring before him. And I got a direct answer. I got the it's okay to rest. And then I had clarity on the situation. It was like where had that been? I? I felt bad for, like you know just kind of what, just not utilizing that. But I feel so thankful that I can be back at that point and, uh, it's not like he went anywhere, it was just my, my access to it. So I love it. I was so thankful for it and, yeah, it's, it's definitely, um, a game changer, no doubt.
Speaker 1:Well, you guys are testimony to us. Um, I see your good works and I'm glorifying God and I think that at the end of this, I think you said, like those three months took forever. I remember when I was getting fired, that month took forever. I think at the end of this thing, we'll have been like, oh, that it's over, Like that was so fast and Jesus would have come right on time, and, um, we have eternity to rest. Um with him. Um, and so we don't forsake all of this stuff. Even though you said you wouldn't wish this on your enemy, in some ways we count it all joy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he'll use whatever. You know, even trials become a blessing in the life of a Christian because you know, we, we know that he uses it all for good. And you know, I don't know, you know what's going to happen in in the next uh, two years. Uh, you know, and and whatnot, we don't know going forward, but there's this sense of security that we can have in Christ and that's such a beautiful thing and I, I, I love being able to just rely on him and know that. And also, looking back at this and going, it was tough and he got me through it, he got my family through it, he can use it for his glory and and he's going to work in these other people's lives too.
Speaker 2:Like that's, that's the cool part. Like, at the time, you don't want to see that, you don't want to focus in on that, but really, um, yeah, god's for us and it's, it's just going to be cool to to see what comes and it brings a lot of hope, um, and peace, which, when you talk about a peace that passes, understanding, like it is a practice, it's not like because there's this lack of bad circumstances in my life, I don't know why I thought like, oh, if I get into freedom, like those things are going to lessen because clearly they haven't yet those things happen and I can have peace. That's that's people need to know that that can be the case and that it's a practice and that you can have it. It doesn't depend on the circumstances. And that's not cavalier and that's not, uh you know, just trying to dismiss any bad thing that's going on. It's just trying to be real encouraging because that's the way I've been able to come along and look at it.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you so much for sharing your story, Lauren. We appreciate you. You're welcome.