Death to Life podcast
A podcast that tells the stories of people that used to be one way, and now are completely different, and the thing that happened in between was Jesus.
Death to Life podcast
#236 Carl Syvertson, Already Transformed: A Man's Journey to Understanding Freedom in Christ
Carl Syvertson shares his journey from understanding salvation intellectually to experiencing the transformative revelation that God has already freed him from sin and given him a new identity.
• Carl's spiritual journey began with a family legacy of seeking closeness to Jesus
• His great-great-grandfather was a Quaker missionary who became an Adventist after a dream showing others closer to Jesus
• Carl describes himself as having been a "hothead" with a prideful attitude before understanding the gospel
• During college at Andrews University, Carl encountered the writings of Jones and Wagner about righteousness by faith
• For decades, Carl believed in salvation but still thought transformation required constantly asking the Holy Spirit for power
• A breakthrough came when Carl realized God had already transformed him and given him the Holy Spirit
• Carl found this truth confirmed in Scripture and in the writings he'd studied years before
• The revelation changed Carl's relationships, particularly with his wife and daughter
• Angry outbursts that once caused multi-day arguments became shorter and less destructive
• Carl began recognizing the Holy Spirit's promptings to share these truths with others
• Understanding comes through intimacy with God, not just intellectual knowledge
• The gospel revelation isn't just a doorway to knowing God but must lead to ongoing relationship
The world doesn't think that the gospel can change your life, but we know that it can and that's why we want you to hear these stories, stories of transformation, stories of freedom, people getting free from sin and healed from sin because of Jesus. This is Death to Life.
Speaker 2:But he was teaching everything. There was a couple things that kind of had me questioning, and that was that we've already been transformed. We've already, you know, god has freed us from sin. Yeah, and that was the revelation that I had at that time. I started believing that God had already freed us, he had already saved us, he had already freed us from sin.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the Death to Life podcast. My name is Richard Young and today's episode is with my brother, carl Sievertson. And if you've been a part of our community for the last few years, you'll recognize Carl. He is the heart of God, he is a sweet man and I think this story of just him sharing how God has already freed him, how that revelation changed his life, is beautiful, and so I think you will appreciate it. Changes life is beautiful, and so I think you will appreciate it and it'll be edifying and encouraging to you. So a buckle up strap in this is Carl Love y'all, appreciate y'all. All right, we're here with Carl, carl Sievertson. Carl, the question I ask at the beginning of all these episodes where are you taking us? Where does the story begin when you consider your life and your spiritual walk? Where does the story start, my friend?
Speaker 2:Well, you know, I guess it would have to begin with family. And it actually began before I was born, several generations ago. My great-great-grandfather was a missionary with the Quakers in Mexico and he met some resistance there. And he came back to the United States and was working in the fields and he was approached by some people that asked him if he could come to meetings that were being held soon, and he said I don't think so.
Speaker 2:But then he came when, you know know, that night he had a dream and in this dream he saw jesus on top of a hill or mountain, and he was midway down the mountain and all. But he noticed that the people who had asked him to go to the meeting were much closer to Jesus. So he said to himself well, that's not going to work for me. I have to show them and at least see what they're up to, because they seem to be closer to Jesus than I am. Yeah, and you know. So he went to the meetings and he became an Adventist. And you know, there's several things that I won't go into here because it doesn't pertain. But what pertains is the attitude that has prevailed in our family for generations and that is, in order to be saved, we have to be close to Jesus. It was that that saved us. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And you know, for me it really didn't take as much, because I was really a hothead.
Speaker 1:A real hothead. A hothead, you know. I know what a hothead is. I haven't met you in person. Hopefully I'll meet you this weekend. Hopefully you'll be out where we're hanging out this weekend. You had a short fuse.
Speaker 2:Oh yes, I kind of think that was based in a prideful attitude. I had to be right about everything, and if I wasn't right things, came out.
Speaker 1:What were the things that you needed to be right about?
Speaker 2:Almost anything.
Speaker 1:Were you an arguer in Sabbath school class.
Speaker 2:Sabbath school class, usually not because I was listening, although I did do a little bit of arguing. But well, it's been 40 years since I've come across the gospel. And it's been 40 years since I've come across the gospel when I was in college, you know, I was introduced to the writings of Jones and Wagner and although I didn't understand everything at the time like I do now, there was a lot there that calmed me down.
Speaker 1:I wasn't an arguer in Sabbath school per se, as much as one who definitely had to have his point known. For those who are listening, you may not know who jones and wagner are at. Jones and ej wagner were a couple of young guys at the beginning of the advent movement who started seeing some things about paul and, uh, ej wagner's daddy, gh wagner. He, he seems like one of the guys that first grabbed onto the gospel, and they both. They wrote this book called Lessons on Faith. I'm not sure if that's the book that you read, but there was a big split in our church because of their understanding of righteousness by faith.
Speaker 2:It sounded like you started to grab onto something about righteousness by faith At that point yes, hmm, and you know, when I was in college, there was another big, big dealing going on, and that was the Ford controversy. Where were you in school?
Speaker 1:Andrews University.
Speaker 2:So this is like 1979, 1980, 1981, that time, yeah, I started at Andrews in 77 and didn't graduate until 84.
Speaker 1:Hey, college sounds like the best seven years of your life, Carl.
Speaker 2:Well, it wasn't all seven years, it was. You know, I took time off to work and back to school and more time off to work and earn money, and I mean I changed majors once.
Speaker 1:But Desmond Ford. So how did this, how did this controversy hit you Like? Were you were you frustrated with with Desmond Ford, or were you frustrated or were you a Fordite? What was going on?
Speaker 2:I was not a Fordite. I did explore and look into a little bit of what he was teaching. In fact, one of my professors was one of the people who did leave with Ford. People who did leave with Ford, but it it didn't make sense to me.
Speaker 2:Anyhow, the type of things that I was learning from them was you know that we're already saved, that we have Christ's death has paid the price for us already, and we're already saved. Through that I learned a bit about the nature of Christ and how that goes along with what we are In fact. In my studies I made a note that and this was before I came across Ford that in John 1, it talks about if you do not believe that, if you believe that Christ has come in the flesh, well, it's John 1.4 1 John.
Speaker 1:1 John 1.4. Yeah, if there's that big argument that the Gnostics believe that Jesus was not a man but was like a ghost or a wraith or a spirit, and 1 John 4 says that which we have seen and heard, we proclaim also to you, so that you may have fellowship with us. And indeed, our fellowship is with the Father, with the Son, jesus Christ, and we are writing these things so that you, our joy, is complete. Maybe it was before that, but yeah, the whole point and we are writing these things so that our joy is complete Maybe it was before that, but yeah, the whole point is that we touched him, we saw him, that this was a human being 4.1.
Speaker 2:The leavened do not believe every spirit.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's right.
Speaker 2:But test the spirits whether they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this, you know the spirit of God. Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of Antichrist, which you have heard was coming and is now already in the world. You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. Become them because he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.
Speaker 2:Now, what took me to the point where I didn't say, you know, I human identity actually as being that of a sinner, and that we will always be that until Christ comes, which is basically the agnostic understanding of our nature? And you know, and how Christ, and because of that Ford was, you know that understanding he had. He was saying that God was divine. He had no human to him. That God was divine, he had no human to him. He was physically human but was separate from humanity, in that he was above humanity. He took on the nature of pre-fallen Adam, rather than the nature that had the ability to sin Anyhow. That's what took me away from understanding or, you know, paying attention to Ford.
Speaker 1:So you didn't really take a look at his other stuff about the investigative judgment or anything like that.
Speaker 2:I didn't go into depth with it and that sort of thing because, well, I was in college and I had a lot of stuff to do. I had stuff to do, stuff to do. My reading about the Jones and Wagner and their writings told me that, hey, this isn't quite right because of what he was teaching. So I didn't pay much more attention to it. Enough to know that he was teaching that, but not enough to get into depth and say, hey, I might believe this.
Speaker 1:Right. So who was God to you? What?
Speaker 2:was he like as you were growing up and in college and in your young adulthood? Well, I did see him as being loving, but also as being just. In that I had to toe the line.
Speaker 1:Or else what.
Speaker 2:Or else I would be lost, or else I would be lost, which is pretty much standard. But then also in our family, we were told, taught you know, get to know Jesus. So I spent a lot of time in Scripture, and in my younger years I spent a lot of time with the Bible stories, because the Bible wasn't, you know, it was not clear to me as a child. Sure, I mean when I was probably third, fourth grade, I was wanting to be baptized, but my parents said well, you need to wait a little bit until you understand things a bit more. Finally, they allowed me to be baptized at the age of 11 instead of, you know, eight or nine. I don't know why they were that way, but they were that way.
Speaker 1:And so, as you're growing up and this whole Ford thing is going on and you're moving on, what did you come away with after that? Like, were you more of a traditional? Like you said, you ran into the gospel 40 years ago. When did this? Was through reading Jones and Wagner Four years ago, 40 years ago. Yeah, that's what you said 40 years ago.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was basically through reading Jones and Wagner, and I will personally be honest with you about this. They're not in an easy-to-understand format and all for us, modern day, they were pretty pretty. Their way of addressing things was a little bit different than what I was used to, sure, certainly. So I mean, I did understand that, you know, I understood that it was easier to be saved than to be lost, and there were some things that I didn't understand, and that was God's relationship to sin and our relationship to sin. In our relationship to sin, I still held on to the tradition of our family of holding on to.
Speaker 2:It's our relationship with God that saves us and that we need to come to the Holy Spirit. It's our work to come to the Holy Spirit and ask for power to overcome sin in our lives. It was kind of a works-based orientation that was based on that on us, rather than what God has already done. Although I had understood that God has already saved us and that we were saved and all we needed to do was believe on that, I still saw things as being based on us.
Speaker 1:You didn't know that. Back then, though, you didn't think it was a works-based religion, did you?
Speaker 2:No, I didn't, and very few people who are that way do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they say, well, no, this is what God does. And then they describe it and it's heavy on what we do, mm-hmm, but they can't see it.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, when you get into—well, when I was getting into doing this, where I believed that God had already saved me without believing that he had already transformed me, hmm, it was on my own. Yeah, that is kind of a a once saved, always saved attitude hmm, which is what I you know what I was doing. I was once saved, always saved. I believe that. But yet I also believe that my righteousness came from a partnership per se with the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 1:When you say once saved, always saved, that's the scariest words in Adventism. They've been trying to fight once saved, always saved. When you say you believe that you believe that Jesus had saved you, but you weren't giving yourself over to living licentiously. You were trying to live right, but you didn't know how that was going to end up working Exactly. Exactly.
Speaker 2:And you know this is when I was in college and this is when I was in college. Later on I came to the point where friends of mine were studying the writings of Jones and Wagner and I learned a lot more. And in this learning, one of my friends, who is a Bible teacher, bible and history teacher at the local junior academy, brought out that you know. He says, isn't it wonderful that Christ has taken our human nature? And the pastor said blasphemy and he went out and you know, talked about the again the Augustinian idea of once a sinner, always a sinner. We will not be anything but a sinner until the coming of Christ, which is pretty much the center of evangelicalism.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know the controversy was really, really intense, but you know. So I turned to the word. You know scripture and the words and all, and just solidified my understanding of God being a God of transformation. Amen. Exactly how, I was not sure, but you know that's what that did for me.
Speaker 1:So, as you continued on and you were doing, life, did who God was? Did he end up changing? Was he the same? What kind of stuff were you learning along the way? Um?
Speaker 2:well, as far as who God was, I just was more sure that he was. He was my savior. He was no-transcript, and the foundations of he's also already transformed me.
Speaker 1:So you are working out that transformation. If you didn't know, you had been transformed.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:How are you doing?
Speaker 2:was constantly asking for forgiveness, which I don't know why. I was because I had also understood that he had already forgiven me, but yet I also was always asking for the Holy Spirit's power in my life, and because it was based on me.
Speaker 1:I struggled a bit.
Speaker 2:Trying to decide if you actually had the power of the Holy Spirit. Well, I was trying to access it because of myself. I didn't realize that God had already given us the power of the Holy Spirit as well as salvation Right.
Speaker 1:Did you feel like you had been saved? You had assurance of your salvation. Yes, but you were just trying to figure out the transformation aspect of it. Yes, and so in your life there were some ups and downs. You felt, but you felt confident. You were just trying to figure out this other stuff, right, all right, well, I go.
Speaker 2:Well, I spent many, many, many years in that and and all and during the church we were going to had a very large cell of New Age in it.
Speaker 1:What does that mean, what is New Age?
Speaker 2:basically, it was based on Gnosticism, that you needed to give up yourself and and let the spirits take over. And it was the spirits take over, and it was the spirits. This doesn't sound right. No, it doesn't. And there was a. I mean, this was long before Pastor Wayne came. This was long before he came. There was quite a division in the church and a lot of people left the local congregation or other congregations.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can imagine.
Speaker 2:But you know, I don't know why we stayed on, but we did see enough that was going on, that it was also something that we needed to stay by and pray for. Pray for things, yeah, and what was?
Speaker 1:going on. So how did that end up working out? Did the pastor that was preaching that end up leaving, or it wasn't a pastor that was teaching it? Oh, with some people on the car.
Speaker 2:There was a pastor that was tolerating it and he ended up leaving. And then there was another pastor that came in that ruffled a lot of feathers but, you know, didn't really condemn this, what was going on, but did say that they couldn't teach in the Sabbath school anymore and they couldn't serve as elders anymore. Right If they couldn't serve as elders anymore, right If they were teaching that. But he ruffled so many feathers. In a year he was gone. Mercy, yeah, yeah, but anyhow, that was just something that happened along the way.
Speaker 1:So what year did Pastor Wayne end up showing up?
Speaker 2:Early 2015, 2014, something like that. I remember.
Speaker 1:Because he was in Minnesota and I've moved to Minnesota, but he had left maybe a year before that and we got there at around 2015. Okay and so, yeah, what was the first you started hearing about? Freedom from sin, and how did that hit you when you first started hearing about it?
Speaker 2:Well, you know, Tyler came and did a Love Reality series.
Speaker 1:He talks about it in episode one of this podcast.
Speaker 2:He brings that up, yeah, and he talks about how his wife was going along and, frankly, my wife and I saw that she was not vibing at all.
Speaker 1:That's an understatement. Yeah, she was not vibing and you saw that you didn't have any idea of the background. What did you think? Do you remember what you thought about what he was preaching?
Speaker 2:Well, I was excited because I did not hear much of the teachings of Jones and Wagner, much at all, but he was teaching everything. There was a couple things that kind of had me questioning, and that was that we've already been transformed. We've already, you know, god has freed us from sin. Yeah, and that was the revelation that I had at that time. I started believing that God had already freed us, he had already saved us, he had already freed us from sin.
Speaker 1:Was it hard for you to make that leap? Or when Tyler was explaining it and pointing it out in Romans, chapter 6, were you like? Well, I mean, it's right there.
Speaker 2:Well, it was right there. I mean, it's right there, well, it was right there. But I did not immediately say, oh, that's what it is. I had to, as I've always done. I've gone, and when there was something that was different than I had believed, I went to the scripture and to the others, and I also went to the writings of Jones and Wagner, and it was there as well.
Speaker 1:So then that's when I jumped on and said, hey, this is the truth, this is. You know. I remember doing that exact thing. I have the book lessons on faith over here and I was always trying to put these things together that I was hearing. I was like Tyler is saying this and Jonathan saying this, and I really wanted it to make sure that it lined up with what, like, I didn't want to be uncomfortable and it was making me very uncomfortable. Do you remember if it made you uncomfortable hearing this?
Speaker 2:made you uncomfortable hearing this? Well, no, in fact it actually made me joyful and happy. But I wanted you know before I was to go out and tell others, I wanted to make sure it was in scripture. Sure, it was more, it was not a you know, hey, I jumped on it and I'm talking about it and and all until that, until I looked into scriptures. So what'd you find? What did I find? Well, there's one thing that I found in all that. I don't remember where it was, where Wagner was saying hey, when God says God's word is creative, word is creative when he says that you are free from sin, that you are holy and righteous. That it's true, you are. It is a fact in your life, now, today. It's true in our lives that we are.
Speaker 1:It's called the chapter you're talking about. It's called creation or evolution. Which, yes and powerful chapter where? This one's by Jones, this one's by Jones. He goes on to explain that evolution is that if God says something, then it starts happening, and it starts happening over a period of time. But creation is when God says something, then it is. So how did you find your way, after hearing this, back to that chapter? You just something clicked and you're like let me, let me go back and look at that.
Speaker 2:That's basically what it was. I had read it but it didn't sink in Because I had probably devoured I'd say devoured a dozen books that they had wrote. And it just didn't sink in until, basically, I was challenged by Tyler in this presentation, by Tyler in his in this presentation. Then it finally clicked and I went back to verify hey, you know, I kind of remember this, but am I remembering, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so so what did you start to believe about yourself then?
Speaker 2:That I was free from sin.
Speaker 1:That's a big one. Yes, it is, because if you're constantly trying to free yourself from sin and that's the funny thing, right is, we can't free ourselves, you're trying to free yourself from sin.
Speaker 2:And that's the funny thing. Right is, we can't free ourselves, and I recognize that I couldn't free myself, but I did see that it was that I needed to rely and to constantly ask the Holy Spirit for the power to do things on my own. So it wasn't, you know. I realized that I couldn't do things.
Speaker 1:But what I didn't realize is that it was already done in me, for me. So, upon that realization, did something change, or did just the way you feel, or talk to me about that.
Speaker 2:Okay, With that revelation it did change the way I felt. It definitely changed my willingness to share about what God has done. Hmm.
Speaker 2:And there was a lot of changes that went on, but I did not have some of the deep set habits that some people have had. Sure, Praise God, and I praise God, yeah, absolutely. And that was primarily, I think, because something that I learned 40 years ago and that was about the uh, our, our relationship to others. I mean, back in that time there was a you know I was kind of involved with the um well, they called it the 1888 message study committee and some of the people there were um message study committee and some of the people there were um were discussing what they called corporate repentance.
Speaker 2:And you know, it isn't what it sounds like. You know it's. A lot of people were taking it that you needed, uh, the corporate church needed, to repent, but that's not what it was. It's that we needed to realize that the sins of others would be ours but for the grace of God in our life and that sort of thing. I don't, you know, I couldn't see the scriptural basis for it and I still don't that other people's sins would be your sins.
Speaker 1:Like which one do you not see?
Speaker 2:well, I don't see the scriptural basis, the practical basis, I see, sure, but Well, I don't see the scriptural basis, the practical basis, I see, sure, I don't see you know where it says that in Scripture.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, where we can—the idea that the ground is level at the foot of the cross is probably Romans 3.23,. The idea that the ground is level at the foot of the cross is probably Romans 3.23,. For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and are redeemed by the blood of the Lord. So the idea that all of us need saving is true, but then all of us in Jesus Christ have been saved, yeah. Then all of us in Jesus Christ have been saved, yeah. And so you're trying to put that together, as you're kind of growing in this thing, what tangibly or practically was happening in your life after hearing this. I think Pastor Wayne started preaching it a little bit back then and it kind of became a lot about what he was about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he did start preaching. The gospel was talking about things being the same way, as I was thinking that we needed to ask the Holy Spirit for the power to overcome in our lives. But you know, I did hear that and it was affirming what I had believed before had believed before.
Speaker 1:And then when Tyler comes along and he's like no, we are sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, like we have the Holy Spirit Right.
Speaker 2:Then it was a little different. You know, what I find is that a lot of a lot of people do believe that, yeah, and they believe that you have to ask for the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is already there. If it was not working with people, this world would have destroyed itself centuries ago.
Speaker 1:If the Holy Spirit was not working with non-believers yeah, I think there's so much misunderstanding of the Holy Spirit and even the purpose of the Holy Spirit, mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:If we did not have the Holy Spirit and even the purpose of the Holy Spirit, if we did not have the Holy Spirit, we would not be able to even understand the things of the cross, because the purpose of the Holy Spirit is that we do understand the heart of God. And so without the Holy Spirit, while the work of the cross would have happened, we would not understand it, because the Holy Spirit speaks to spiritual things and humanity can't understand spiritual things unless they have the lens of God, unless they see his heart. And so we can understand doctrine, we can understand the words, but if we don't know God, then we just know a lot of stuff. But the whole purpose of good doctrine is that we then end up knowing God, that we actually sup with God, that we spend time with God. But the doctrine is the way to get to God. The doctrine isn't God, god, the doctrine isn't God.
Speaker 1:All right, if you're listening to this today, on Wednesday, the day it drops, then maybe you have a chance to see us this weekend in Denver. If you're listening to this later, the Denver thing has already happened and it was probably the bomb, and we were there hanging out and we get to do these gatherings because of people like you that donate and help move this ministry forward. We want to do many more of these. We were just in Denver, we'd love to be in Chicago, we'd love to be in Illinois, california, and it's because of you guys. So partner with us, go to loverealityorg. Slash, give, and every single dollar goes to getting this ministry moving forward. So love you all, appreciate you all. Let's get back to the episode.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, yeah. Well, I think the biggest change I've seen is that I started to hear, hear things, the holy spirit telling me oh, wow, uh, that I, that's what I, you know. I think the biggest change is, and you know it was. It has not been a, you know, an audible voice that I hear, but it's things that pop into my mind that I say where'd that come from? You know, probably one of the earlier ones is, you know, that God's grace is greater than I ever imagined. It was primarily said well, share it. And so I shared it with my friends, or with my wife and friends, and something was going on with my Facebook account at that time, and something was going on with my Facebook account at that time. People that I didn't even know were requesting to be friends and I hadn't been sharing it. And God said, well, share it there. So I shared what I had been understanding for quite a while and that has opened the doors a lot for me to share the gospel with others.
Speaker 1:I think I got on a couple of your posts back maybe a few years ago. It seemed like people were getting frustrated with you.
Speaker 2:Us, particularly the legalists, people with legalistic backgrounds.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. But if the legalistic people aren't mad at you, are you really preaching the gospel? I'm not sure you are, you know no.
Speaker 2:And I understood that. And of course, then there's also some people that were not legalistic, that are down on me because I have said, you know, I was saying that God has already transformed us and they're saying no, no, that doesn't happen until Christ comes. Yeah, he did. You know. So it's both ends that I was getting it from.
Speaker 1:That's how you know you might be on to something, unless you're being a jerk. But if you're not being a jerk and both ditches are frustrated with you, then maybe you're, maybe you're going down the center.
Speaker 2:Yes, even the dyed-in-the-wool legalists think they're going down the center.
Speaker 1:Sure. So did you have any success in preaching this on Facebook to either side? Either ditch Right, Either ditch, you know.
Speaker 2:I would say, you know the one that you were in on. He is no longer teaching. The last post I saw from him was that we need to do the right, read the writings of Jones and Wagner and do that. And you know, I counseled them to say, well, it's not really the doing as much as the believing in what they taught, because they didn't teach a doing message of the gospel. They taught a being or a believing, yeah, aspect of the gospel. I mean, that's, that's this one that you're familiar with, the other, yeah. The others are still working. A product, a work in progress.
Speaker 1:So so you started hanging out, coming to Bible studies, coming to internet church. What kind of things were you hearing that were beneficial to you and your kind of growing in in the understanding of freedom from sin?
Speaker 2:Well reinforcing of what I had studied out in the past through the years. I mean, tyler, you know, basically there was two things, and that was identity as holy and righteous sons and daughters of God, and I had already figured out that it was not, that we are sinners and will always be until the end, until Christ comes I'd already figured that out and that we're already free from sin and that the Holy Spirit is already working in us. Right, I mean that's what was new to me and that has made a big difference in my life. How so, how so, basically in my attitude towards life and how I relate to other people. Yeah, okay, and you know the way I relate to my wife and daughter. I relate to my wife and daughter. I mean, I'm still not completely over the angry outbursts, but it's very short, yeah, and my wife reminds me, and in such a way that it would have caused a major argument for For ages. You know, going on for days, it doesn't anymore.
Speaker 1:So what is it about the gospel that keeps you coming back and back and back, that you want to just saturate yourself with the gospel? What is it about that for you, carl?
Speaker 2:to just saturate yourself with the gospel. What is it about that for you, carl? Well, I would say it's a gratitude for what god has already done for me and the desire to be able to share it with others, and one of the best things of sharing is to understand what works with other people and works with other things. I've been impressed with a number of things that you have said in these situations in internet church, when talking to people, and you know it helps me to understand that I could talk that way too it's come through a lot of trial and error, a lot of listening.
Speaker 1:I'm sure you've been on there where I have been clumsy and maybe have hurt someone's feelings, but because we've been changed, we're going for showing people that they've been changed too, even though they don't feel it or see it Right, and so we're just going to keep on going for it and we're continuing to learn and grow. But we also remember that where we were when we first started hearing this. If it was 40 years ago with Jones and Wagner, if it was, you know, in 2018 and 19 for me, we still have to remember. Yeah, I didn't understand this stuff.
Speaker 1:so I can have grace for somebody.
Speaker 2:And it has been a lifelong journey for me. I mean, I'm in my late 60s and it's been a lifelong journey and I probably will come across some more that I don't understand and that I will. You know that God is teaching me.
Speaker 1:And that's all right. Yes, it is, and we just keep on learning and growing until then. So when? How can you tell when you're hearing the real gospel, Carl, and when it's not gospel? How?
Speaker 2:can I tell? Yeah. Well now, if it goes with Scripture, you know, if it teaches what Scripture does. But then you know, people will, and I have encountered that a lot is people will read into Scripture what they understand.
Speaker 1:Yeah, certainly. And you know I say that the Holy Spirit working in my life is probably a big one in the understanding of Scripture. It's not really easy, is it? No, not always. There's passages in there that are troubling, and are we able to, if we don't get it, not throw everything away and just keep on letting the majors be the majors and not major and minors?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean, there's some some things that that people have said that I just don't see it about. I Die Daily, have taken the notion that they're putting themselves in danger constantly and daily, and I believe that could very well be part of it. Sure, but I've also gone and looked at that and the daily is continually. He's continually keeping himself dead to well, not keeping himself but, you know, in a state of being dead to sin. Okay, that's, that's the way I see that text, but that's me personally. You can see it the way you want where, the way you have. I hear you. He is consistent. You know he dies daily. Well, the daily there is not every day he has to come across and die. It's a continually he keep. He's continually in a state of dead to sin.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and I think about it this way you know, the revelation that you got, carl, and that you've been growing in, it's good, the revelation that I got and I've been growing in, it's good, but we can't live off that revelation, because my revelation was, you know, with freedom from sin, six years ago. Your revelation, for that was a while ago. We can't live off of that. That revelation is a doorway to end up actually knowing God. Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:So, like you can't fuel your car up on the revelation, you can't fuel your spiritual car up on the revelation. Maybe the revelation is what gets you to see that the car is good, but now it runs on intimacy. It runs on knowing him, and sometimes we let that revelation take the place of knowing him. You see what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:Right? Well, I understand that and that's part of you know the way I was working in knowing God. I was seeing that as the means of my salvation, which it isn't, no. Knowing.
Speaker 2:God is the way he communicates with us. Yeah, and in that way, and if that's what my great-great-grandfather was talking about, about, you know he's was right on that. God is. Knowing god is how we learn in life. It's how we get to know him. But if we put our salvation on knowing god instead of believing on him and believing in him, yeah, then we're actually in a a what I would call mild works state if we real, if we get the revelation that god is love and he has changed our hearts, that's, that's great.
Speaker 1:We need to then continue to know him, and not so that we're saved, but eternal life is in scripture that we know God, and it's not a mere doctrine of God, but to like. You know I've never met you in person, carl. Hopefully I'll get to meet you this weekend, like I can see you and look at your Facebook posts and all of that stuff. But I won't know you until I till I shake your hand and say, hey, man, facebook posts and all of that stuff. But I won't know you until I shake your hand and say, hey, man, and we spend some time talking and having fellowship. And that's the thing.
Speaker 1:Is all of these revelations and all these doctrines and all this stuff. Jesus says you search the scriptures because in them you think you'll find life, but they're the ones that speak of me. And so, because we have the Holy Spirit, he's revealed to us the mind of God. We have it all there that now we can step in and get alone with him and spend some time with him, see who he is, let him minister to us Well, god he desires intimacy with us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's part of what it is, what our life is all about. I mean, if I did not have intimacy with my wife, things would be pretty shaky.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, man. So let me ask you this before I let you go At what point do you think you could go back and talk to Carl and say, carl, you're missing this, and what would you want him to know?
Speaker 2:Well, probably back in the time that I was studying the writings of Jones and Wagner some 40 years ago, I'd go. I would basically want to tell them what I've learned now, which is that you know since then. Want to tell them what I've learned now, which is that you know since then, which is that you're already free. You don't have to constantly ask God for the Holy Spirit to free you. You are already free. And the notion that the idea that we are holy and righteous sons of God, that we will. You know that we are already holy and righteous sons of God. It's already happened for us in our life. Because of Jesus. Because of Jesus. That's what has been new to me.
Speaker 1:And I see that you know. I see on Facebook. I see you ministering to people, I see your posts of encouragement and it's encouraging to me to see you. You've been a part of our community for years now and whenever you raise your hand or you have a thought, I'm always glad to hear it because you've thought about these things and yet also also you're letting the gospel transform you. So, carl, I just want to say thank you for coming on and sharing that aspect of your story, and I'm just expecting more works that we see from your life, that we glorify your father in heaven, because you've just been operating in his truth. So thanks for coming on and sharing your heart.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, thank you for the opportunity. Absolutely.