Death to Life podcast
A podcast that tells the stories of people that used to be one way, and now are completely different, and the thing that happened in between was Jesus.
Death to Life podcast
#237 Hollie: Sensitivity Is a Superpower
We trace Hollie's journey from fear-based faith and purity culture to a lived identity in Christ that quieted years of anxious loops. Sensitivity turns from burden to gift as she learns to want intimacy without making it her identity and to teach, create, and love from fullness, not lack.
• reframing sensitivity as strength rooted in identity in Christ
• naming purity culture myths and their impact on worth and desire
• moving from anxiety, perfectionism, and rumination to peace
• camp community, Scripture, and a worship moment that marked change
• practicing Philippians 4 focus and rejecting self-condemnation
• teaching and photography transformed by freedom and empathy
• living single without lack while holding honest desire
• embracing grief, joy, and resilience in a complicated world
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The world doesn't think that the gospel can change your life, but we know that it can. And that's why we want you to hear these stories: stories of transformation, stories of freedom, people getting free from sin and healed from sin because of Jesus. This is death to life.
SPEAKER_03:My brain is always running, even still. I mean, like constantly analyzing things. And even when I think back about my through my relationship with God, it wasn't until later that it really became clear that it's like I surrendered everything to God, except for I kept holding out saying, like, but God's son brought me a husband. So therefore you don't love me. Or I can't love me. Um, there can't be like I can't be complete.
SPEAKER_01:Yo, welcome to the Death of Life Podcast. My name is Richard Young, and today's episode is with my friend Holly. And man, there's so much real life in this episode. There's so much practical. What do we do with the lies? What do we do with the feelings? Um, are we supposed to just not feel? Are we supposed to what if what if we are a very sensitive people? And and Holly, man, she has a beautiful heart that God has given her, and uh her sensitivity led her to believe some lies. But then uh God has shown her the truth of who she is in Jesus Christ. And so we deal with the lies of uh singleness, the lies of not being chosen, the lies of uh, you know, what happens when we feel bigly. And so you're gonna love this episode because Holly's amazing and she has a beautiful story to tell. So buckle up and strap in. Love y'all, appreciate y'all. Here is Holly. Yeah, yeah. If you're not nervous, if you're not nervous, you're not normal. All right, so a little background. Um, I as we were talking, I was trying to figure out if I've ever met Danica in person, and I feel like I have, but I don't know. And uh she's been on me in the background, like you need to have Holly on the podcast. And my response is always like, Who's that? I don't know who she is. So you be like, who is she? And then um then we linked up and we're like, let's do it. And we were planning for some time last week, and then we're like, what about the 11th? September 11, you know, a big day for our country. And then just a few minutes ago, uh, if I'm being honest, I was like, man, the wind is out of my sails a little bit. We're recording this on September 11th. And if uh, you know, whenever this comes out, yesterday uh was probably the biggest assassination in our country since oh, I don't know.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, recent, very I mean I was trying to think about that to tell like the students because we were talking about that day. I can't um like that public of an assassination.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and maybe it's the first assassination with social media the way it is.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, I think that's what it is.
SPEAKER_01:And I was like yesterday, I was in a coaching program with a bunch of guys, and they were telling me not to watch the footage. They said it was horrific and I shouldn't watch it. Yep. Um, obviously I've watched it, and I don't know how anyone could get away without watching it now. And it was horrific and it's been messing with me, like my my spirit is troubled. And so I was talking with you and I was like, my spirit is low. And I think what we probably ought to do is talk about Jesus. I think we need to. And so, what is what has been your experience with this the last couple hours?
SPEAKER_03:Oh, I mean, yeah, so because I teach high school. Um, and I like to say I teach the fun classes, meaning that who cares if we don't get through curriculum? So we can take detours all the time. Um but yeah, just like I I just had it so heavy on my heart. Um, just watching everything that's going on and knowing that my kids, my students, are gonna be seeing everything too. Um personally, I I don't I pr I'm very careful about what I watch. Um part of that is I I feel like I have a special superpower, at least I call it a superpower. I am highly sensitive. Um that is a term, right? Like it is, it is an actual, like I won't say diagnosis, but like highly sensitive person. Like an empath or like sort of, but it's like there is one, like I had one counselor introduce me to the concept of highly sensitive, and it actually made me it gave me so much clarity um to understand myself. And so it it's not so much like we we usually tend to equate um like sensitivity to emotions, which is that that's part of it, but it's also more that you just sense things at a deeper level.
SPEAKER_01:Um, do your feelings get hurt easier, or do you sense my feelings or you sense how I'm feeling, or is it yes, both? All of that, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And so when heavy things like this happen, it's I can take it on a lot. I have spent my whole life in counseling. Um, I think the first time I went to a counselor, I was quite young. Um, I can't remember the exact age, maybe five-ish, but I had some, you know, um, some difficult things happen when I was really young. Um, I lost a classmate in a house fire in first grade. Oh, wow. Um, and then it was a very traumatic event, like five kids died. Um yeah. And then um I had a grandpa that passed away from ALS. Um and then around that time, I think it was, I should have done the math before we started talking, but I didn't. Um, but I'm pretty sure it's the Oklahoma, Oklahoma City bombing, or maybe that was first, and then these other events happened in my life. But um watching the news from the Oklahoma City bombing, um, I got so incredibly fearful that I couldn't even, I just remember being outside hearing an airplane go over and just being just like consumed with terror that they were dropping bombs. I don't know why I equated that with, but it was the images. And I know that that was the first time that a counselor told my parents, like, hey, you gotta be really careful what's on the TV with Holly. Um, that that you should be just just real, she she takes things in really deeply. Um, like there's a pi a series of pictures, because they're the actual physical pictures, of me as like a really little kid watching a a cartoon um at my grandparents' house, and it's like going through every single emotion, like laughing, bawling, uh getting angry, just watching a cartoon.
SPEAKER_01:How old were you when you saw the Little Mermaid for the first time?
SPEAKER_03:Oh, teen teenager.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, good. Because when she turns into the big octopus at the end, yes, terrifying. Yeah, so scarred me.
SPEAKER_03:I do think it was uh wisdom, God's wisdom that that really and my parents' wisdom um to really made it I was not allowed to go to the movie theater growing up. So and that was a big deal in the 90s, and it wasn't from a spiritual aspect, it was a well, this is gonna wreck Holly, so we're not gonna let her.
SPEAKER_01:I wanted to go, but yeah, I my angel was gonna be outside. I just like I don't want a movie miss me.
SPEAKER_03:Yes. Thankfully, that was I think my mom was grew up in that that mentality, but she did not pass it on to I don't think my my parents uh they didn't pass that on either, but I can't say it wasn't some spiritualness about it.
SPEAKER_01:Like even in the 90s, there was still so yes, that all being said, then you haven't seen the footage of this thing.
SPEAKER_03:I have not, because I've purposely stayed away from it.
SPEAKER_01:Um stay on the internet for another, you know, 40 48 hours because it's gonna go Oh, it's everywhere, and it is hard everywhere. And if you just Well, so then there's there's you're just your heart's sad just because this this terrible thing has happened. How did you relate with the kids or how did you talk to the kids about it today?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, so today, well, it was actually a few days ago. Um, I mean, I'm not a morning person, been waking up in the morning earlier than normal, and so getting extra like, you know, secret place time. Um, and I came across one video or one um, yeah, YouTube clip of uh Tim Keller and him talking about, you know, the Bible isn't about you. That was the the little the little clip from a larger presentation. This is like an eight-minute clip. And again, he's just kind of pointing out the fact that um, you know, his he'd asked his wife, like, how's the sermon this week? And he was a little, you know, bent out of shape when she was like, it's okay, it's felt like a lecture. It's like you're you know, you feel like, yeah, I I understand what I should be doing because that's what it sounds like. Um, but when Jesus shows up, that changes everything. And so the whole point is, yeah, um, you know, it's when Jesus shows up that gives us the hope to actually, you know, we are we see it as like, yeah, we already walk in freedom because of Christ, but that gives you the hope that gives us the ability to not, you know, be constantly beating ourselves up or being brought down by whatever's going on. Um, so talking to the kids about that, I pulled out even a little smaller section of that video, just kind of talking about like, look, there's so much stuff going on that we can't control.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_03:And you're gonna hear a lot and you're gonna see a lot, and you know, just so encourage you to say to watch what watch watch what you're watching, like be careful with it. Um, because the only thing, the only antidote is Jesus. Like, that's it. There's nothing else. I think it's so important that at this time that's just it's such a simple reminder, but just that constant reminder. Um, so I think that that was just the the point that we were able to talk to the kids about. I never try to mention politics in the classroom. Um and yet in the time frame that we're living, I mean, I did teach history for five years. I started teaching middle school history and now I'm moved on to art, which is way more fun. Um but even back then, I mean, like yeah, don't mention my own personal beliefs, but at the current political state, I have to sometimes say, like, look, I don't agree with the stance that that he would take, and yet I can't celebrate that there's this public assassination, right? Like my spirit is grieved. Like I like the heaviness is so palpable because we weren't made to witness these things, right? It's like the reaction to it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I I think that we have to be careful that whether it's I don't know, AOC, I don't know her full her full name. Right. I don't I don't know either. Or or Joe Biden or someone like Donald Trump or uh what's his name? Charlie Kirk. Like let's be careful to keep our hearts soft. Like let's let's not leave sympathy for people. Like if we see that this man has left a wife and kids, well then we can mourn that. And then the well, what about all the other things in the world? Yeah, we should be able to mourn those things too. Like if if if all tragedy, if there's always tragedy going on, that means we can't be sympathetic and we can't have soft hearts towards any of it. No, I I think that's a problem. I think that while Jesus was the most joyful human that's ever existed, he was a man of deep sorrow as well. And uh I think we can hold both of those while we know what happens in the end, like we read the last page, we know that the victory has already been won. In the meantime and in between time, we can be heartbroken for some of the the hard things in life.
SPEAKER_03:Or just heartbroken for just the world and the the chaos and everything that's happening, right? Um, and it doesn't matter, sides don't matter, like nothing, nothing matters, especially again if you to just switch that paradigm to to viewing every single person as a as a child of God and created in the image of God, even if they don't realize it themselves. And that's why there's all this um, you know, just destruction and sin. I mean um just just being able to to view people in that way. It doesn't matter who it is or what it is, it's it's gonna affect you. And yeah, I mean blessed are those who mourn. I've had to claim that a lot for myself because I think I think that um that ability to grieve has been with me my entire life. Um dealing with grief even in a clinical sense, even if it's not necessarily actual physical death, like someone close to me. Um but just yeah, feeling that heaviness of what's going on in in our like on the personal level with uh what Charlie Kirk just personally and his family, but also just as a greater nation and and what has happened and what possibly could come from this.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. Um yeah, thanks for uh walking with me through this because uh it's been kind of heavy. So yeah, we were joking that you're probably the most connected Adventist. Uh where does your story start? I'm guessing like Loma Linda or Barian Springs or or the Fort Lake Seventh Adventist Church. Where does your story start?
SPEAKER_03:Oh, I mean, like, so I uh I'm from California, um, born and raised, and um, but little small towns. So I actually claim Ukaya, which is like way up north as my hometown.
SPEAKER_01:UK and then what city is that near?
SPEAKER_03:That's uh nothing. It's close to oh, San Francisco, two hours north of San Francisco, San Francisco on the 101.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_03:Um, so yeah, small town, um, very close knit, one church. Um, and then uh middle school took me to Sonora, which is over in the central foothills near Yosemite. Um and that's another small town.
SPEAKER_01:Amazing photos of you at Yosemite as a little kid.
SPEAKER_03:Of course I do.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's awesome.
SPEAKER_03:Not only that, but I was literally like someone was asking me the other day when I got my first camera because I am a photographer. Um, not only do I teach photography, I've been doing like a business, I take portraits for people. What's with uh currently a Sony A4.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_03:I think that's what it is. So here's the thing. I am not into the whole like, I can talk about cameras, but I don't know them that well. But if you want to talk about how to take a good picture or like the light and how it's just a phenomenal, then yeah, I can go, I can dig out.
SPEAKER_01:You're not gonna fight over Nikon. You're gonna teach like the rule of thirds, like what makes a photo interesting. Okay.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. How does it evoke emotion? How does it capture the light? Um, but I started on Nikon because that's what grandpa bought me, or or that was like my first uh camera, and my parents got me a Nikon when I graduated high school. And you uh the easiest transition from Nikon is to Sony because they are set up similarly. Canon, everything's flip-fluffed.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_03:And I I'm in too deep, can't switch to Canon.
SPEAKER_01:So you grew up getting going to Yosemite. Um your parents both uh faithful people, like yeah, so I'm uh like multi-generation adventist on both sides.
SPEAKER_03:Um, and not only that, but I think I've been blessed with just extremely spiritual, uh spirit-filled parents. Um yeah, and I my dad's an attorney, my mom's an artist, and I am the perfect blend of both of them, which I think is where a lot of anxiety comes from.
SPEAKER_01:Your mom is an artist. Is she what kind of art?
SPEAKER_03:She is, yeah, she's a painter. She's a painter. She's been an artist for uh, yeah, I mean, her entire life. So almost, not quite. I can't say quite 70 because she's still a few years short of 70. Um, but for I mean, like she there's tons of tons of people that have my mom's artwork in her house or in their houses. Um she does watercolor, yeah. She also does acrylic. She also writes a blog, she also was a teacher. Um, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Wow, that's super cool.
SPEAKER_03:So I grew up like not only going to Yosemite, which is my mom grew up in Sonora or Modesto in Sonora. So that region is is home. Um, but just you know, getting art lessons everywhere we went, even though I refused to take art lessons formally from my mom. So she enrolled me with somebody else.
SPEAKER_01:So are you do you besides your artistic eye for photography, do you like can you draw? Do you have that kind of artistry too?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I mean I can draw. I fully firmly believe everyone can draw. You have the ability to. You just may not practice it.
SPEAKER_01:See, I took this class in college called Art for Everyone.
SPEAKER_03:Oh.
SPEAKER_01:It's not for everyone. Like I did there.
SPEAKER_03:It's because they were teaching it the wrong way.
SPEAKER_01:No, let me say this. The teacher at Union, uh, he was awesome, Mr. Mac. He okay he he's like a legend, and he couldn't help me. Even he, and he's a legend. No, I don't know. I don't have I think I got into photography as well, and so I learned what makes a photo interesting, and that was a lot of fun. But I don't I didn't have like the the hand hand to paper make something look nice.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It was like when I would write on the board, because I was a teacher, my handwriting is so terrible. It is so terrible, and maybe it has to do with my ADHD or something like that. But it like the kids, it was not legible. The kids would start complaining. They're like, What is this? Leave.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, you you did that's okay.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you did a bunch of art, you're growing up, beautiful home, beautiful, spiritual, god-led parents. Yeah. Who was God growing up?
SPEAKER_03:Man, um God was definitely um my best friend. Oh, and I think I got baptized around age 11. Um I think that's how old I was. But again, it was always like what I saw a disconnect with God was, or wasn't God, it was just the way it was being presented. Was I I could see him, sense him, read about him, learn about him at home, and then go to church and you know, have the evangelism series that were full of fear and you know, end of times and stuff like that. And that is really where I struggled because the fear would be so overwhelming that I couldn't see God.
SPEAKER_01:Um, and I think that that fear was like that people are gonna come kill you if you don't do this.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, literally everything. So when I mean it could be just uh letting my mind wander with the concept of we're gonna live forever and can't rationalize that in my head, and I'm gonna spiral into a panic attack because I can't figure this out. Or um, you know, what would the end of times actually look like and running to the hills and that kind of thing? Um terrifying. And and like what I can't lose my family, I can't lose my friends. Um I wouldn't be able to handle that. Um, and then there was the the I I mean, I went to summer camp as a camper, lots of camps to Leone Meadows, went to Wona. And um at Wawona, so I was probably That's the one right by Yosemite, right? Yes, in Yosemite. But back at Wawona when I was there, I think it was junior camp, um, the program was all about the end of times, and it was every night program. Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Do you have the seal of God or the mark of the beast children?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, no, no, no. It was more like this one girl who like Satan is like tempting her in all these ways, and it kind of gets out to the point of they take her friends out back and shoot them because she won't give up her faith. I mean, like traumatizing, just completely traumatizing.
SPEAKER_01:This is not cool, right? I don't think it's cool.
SPEAKER_03:Not cool, no, and it's not, it's not again, it's not how to spread the gospel or paint a picture of who God is. Look, your friends died. And you know, then it was like a dramatic scene where she's on stage and she's like, I still believe in you, Jesus. And I just, yeah, it was it was very, very traumatizing. So again, I am I have a vivid imagination. I take on emotions very deeply, being my own or or family members, I mean just everything. And so so when I would go to church or go to camp and see stuff like that, I couldn't reconcile. I just had this frustration of like, wait, but I it the Bible says that God is love and and perfect love casts out fear. So then how does that correlate? Why is my church, or what I think is, you know, like my church and my people, um, and that like they're using this fear tactic to motivate people to turn to God. And I could not understand why that was. So I would still have, I mean, like God and I were still solid. I feel like I've been there's a Sarah Grove song that says, um I have been talking to you since I was a little girl. Um, so many sweet memories of giving you my world, and that's a hundred percent what I feel like my own journey with God has been. Um at least like growing up. And then um I remember, I think I don't remember, this wasn't the same summer at camp, but another summer at Wawona. I was I think I was 16, I went to team camp, and um there's just like that one night at the the prayer or like the Friday night program, you know, afterwards where it just finally clicked and just felt like, oh, did like this is this is God's love, right? Like him on the cross. This is this is what it's about, and that lightness, that that freedom feeling um that really came to life.
SPEAKER_01:What was the song that they played? I don't remember because when I was there, they played Mercy Me. What's the song? I can only imagine.
SPEAKER_03:I can only imagine, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I promise you, that song slaps the thousand times you've heard it as the first time you've heard it. Like if you listen to it right now. Oh, yeah. And like that part of camp, if you're doing it like that and you're you're preaching God's love and kids are able to receive God's love, beautiful lives are changed at camp, but not scaring them straight, you know, not your your friends are dead and yet you still believe. But but you experience that and you'd receiving something different about God's love.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, for sure. I mean, just having that I don't know, I just I just think through, I mean, I feel like I've always been talking to God um and and always been um yeah, been walking with him. Um but definitely teenage years started throwing wrenches into it was as life started in. And I think that that's where again, um just thinking through like how did I I wouldn't say I ever walked, I never walked away from God. I know that that's not the case. I've just as I look back, I would have these such dark moments that I couldn't see God through.
SPEAKER_02:Sure.
SPEAKER_03:So I I think that's the bigger part of like I I truly believe that I think I'm so intense at times that the only reason I'm alive is because of God. Because why else would I be living otherwise?
SPEAKER_01:What do you mean, like intense? Like you're just high strung, or what do you mean?
SPEAKER_03:No, just everything, like I feel everything intensely. Um and I uh I do a lot. I'm very high uh I mean, I have to be doing everything all the time. I mean, I was the high school kid that was involved in absolutely everything, all music, all drama, all sports. Um, even in college. I mean, I was skipping around. I went to lots of different colleges, took lots of different classes. Um, con I have to be like I would pack my life full of stuff and and things to do and being around people. Um probably for some of it, just to try to run away from the really deep emotions, the negative ones that I didn't want to like face for sure. And for for me, it was definitely like, I mean, I can I can so trace back to uh just like first heartbreak, right? Like first crush, where I just fell so hard for a guy. And then, I mean, it was probably like I think it was like freshman, eighth grade year, freshman year of high school. Um, and then us being like best family friends and his sister being like my best friend, and then um then he start yeah, then he starts dating another girl, and it goes from joking all the time to just like I won't even look at you in the hallway as I walk by you. Um, and we're at a very small school. I had well, I mean, my tenth grade class had what eight people in it. So like he was a year ahead of me. So at that point, I mean there was at least, I don't know, 12 of us or something like that, but not a lot of places to go. Not a lot of places to go.
SPEAKER_01:You probably can't hide how you feel.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, no, no, no, no, not at all. I I became very good at that, I think, when I after that heartbreak. I mean, I just remember visualizing like these, like, you know, like a flower with its roots growing down into my heart and it being ripped out and taking pieces of my heart with me, but then there's still being like these little shreds of like roots that are just stuck in there, and sometimes they'll just still kind of just like try to grow. Um, yeah, and it was it was tough. It was really tough.
SPEAKER_01:Um, sensitive one or your dad?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Oh, they both are. My mom is very, my dad's very sensitive, but my mom's also the artist. Like I said, I think I get it from both sides. I think it's like double dose.
SPEAKER_01:We were talking about Jeff earlier. Um, Jeff said to me, and this is about ADHD. I don't know if this is with sensitive people. I know that not all sensitive people have ADHD, but all ADHD people are very sensitive. Yeah. And so he said, Richard. Uh ADHD people don't have feelings, they are feelings. Oh, my life. That resonated with me because like when you're talking about high school and heartbreak, yeah, like I would marvel at guys who could move on.
SPEAKER_00:And I was like, how can you move on? Your heart is smashed in a million pieces. They took it with you and they lit it on fire.
SPEAKER_01:So like I I couldn't and and now I as I'm I'm turning 42 next week, I'm learning how to regulate these emotions, and even while I feel it, I don't want to turn them all down. I don't want to turn them down at all. I just want to act the way I want to act while I feel all the feels. And that's something that you gotta learn because it's yeah, it's it's tough.
SPEAKER_03:Oh yeah, it's real tough. Yes.
SPEAKER_00:But we're the most fun people too. I know. We want to be little robots and have no feelings. No, I'm a real boy. Yes. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So it's uh you're going to the different colleges.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Was it just like I you didn't know what you wanted to do?
SPEAKER_03:Or yeah, part of it was that. Uh I think it's a little bit of both. I think that um I am constantly looking for you know the next shiny thing. I've had one counselor kind of point that out to me. Um, meaning that again, I think not only am I highly sensitive, I think I'm um, I think I'm gifted, meaning like I can do a lot of things well. And it's really tough to find the one niche that I'm gonna do, right? So when you're looking in college and you're thinking a career, I just remember at one point someone was like, Oh yeah, if you're gonna do education, take a pick a subject that you can teach for the rest of your life. And I was like, well then I'm not gonna pick anything because I can't I can't do that. I can't pick one thing and do it for the rest of my life. Um, so I do think part of it is um, yeah, is like I just needed that adventure. Um, but I definitely was constantly every single year going somewhere new in college, at least for the first couple years. So did community college first because I didn't know what to do. Um my parents helped me uh buy car if I stayed home for community college just to, you know, uh figure life out. And I mean, while I was going to community college, I worked for an attorney in town, and not my dad, a different one. And then I also volunteered at our little junior academy and helps the kids produce their yearbook. And I was still involved in church and leading music, I mean, involved in everything. Um, and that was really fun to be home because I have two younger brothers, and my youngest brother is 10 years younger than me. So being able to be home uh with him a little bit more because I'd gone to boarding school. That that was really cool. Um, and yeah, community college was terrifying only from the aspect of I think I'm I don't know. I don't know if I'm extroverted or introverted, but I swing both both ways, but I'm definitely I deal with shyness. I get really shy at times.
SPEAKER_01:And then I'm afraid when you get to know people, you're not shy at all.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, not at all. No, no, not at all. But but like I remember walking around community college, like holding my phone up and calling my mom and being like, mom, I'm walking by myself and I can't do it. So I'm just gonna talk to you as I go to class.
SPEAKER_01:I think community college, and shout out to everybody who's been to community college, it's gotta be the worst. Because like in high school, like everything is about social life. Like the Friday night, there's a big football game, and then the dinner comes and there's basketball games, and then there's all these dances and all this. And and and in community college, you're just you just kind of get a thing and get out of there. There's no like there's no school spirit. No, nobody wants to be there. And so, and this is like your first like not like secular school, right?
SPEAKER_03:You're like, these people are scary. Yes, or like having teachers curse or curse at you. That was uh that was something I had to I had to uh like deal with. And um, I had one professor that like, oh man, I forget what he was in literature class and I was like saying something like, oh, he was wanting, oh, I know, I I knew the answer he wanted, but I wasn't a hundred percent sure. And so I said, like, you know, I said the answer, but then put a little like question on the end, like you know, the tonality to it. And he just lit into me and was like, Don't you ever, as a woman, answer a man with a question.
SPEAKER_01:And I was just like, Oh, okay. I don't know what's going on. I'm never gonna raise my hand in this class again.
SPEAKER_03:Right. So that's exactly it. So yeah, community college was um, yeah, it was a lot. Um, and then then I I transferred to Southern and I wanted to go to Walla Walla, but Walla Walla wouldn't take my English credit. And so I had fought for that English credit in that professor's class because I he was the same one as like, I don't expect you to get higher than a C in this class. I don't know why. Again, there's now that I'm a teacher, right? Real great. Um, but yeah, I mean, so I didn't I ended up going to Southern and um You got an A in that class, didn't you? I I actually don't know. I think I either got a B plus or an A minus because I think I was right on the cusp at the final, and then I just never checked again.
SPEAKER_01:In your face, teacher guy, professor, whatever.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Yep. So yeah, so then I went to Southern, um, decided on journalism or communications, um, but I really wanted photography as part of it. And I was only at Southern for a year, it was a really rough year. Um, transferring in was tough. It was, I felt I just looking back, I remember feeling very lonely that year overall and frustrated um trying to find a group. But then I'm also the type that like I did have a group that was like, look, we have to go to the cafeteria together. And I was like, um no, if I want to go to the cafeteria by myself, I'm gonna do that. Um, but I met a lot of great people.
SPEAKER_01:By myself, I'm going, and you get to the cafeteria. I'm lonely.
SPEAKER_03:Like, like that's what I mean. So it's just like constant roller coaster. I joined um, I joined BCU because there was that was the only drama like program on campus that year. So I was the only white girl in the Black Christian Union, and it was I met lots of great people, made a lot of great friends, did two plays that year.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_03:Um and uh yeah, and then oh, what other things happened that year? I mean, I met Danica, that's where I met Danica, and we bonded over our love for summer camp. And um uh we yeah, so that was back in 2009. So that was pretty, that was pretty great. But I just had a I had a rough year that year, and I remember um like spiritually, I felt like God had led me to Southern. Um, and Southern throws relationships in your face like none other.
SPEAKER_01:Southern matrimonial.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, exactly. I remember writing a blog post because they had advertised um a wedding photographer in the student newspaper. And I was like, what is this? Where am I? Or like a professor, you know, history professor talking about how so many people had found their spouse in my class, and then we come back the next day and then we have a seating chart and it's boy, girl, boy, girl, boy, girl all the way around.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, he knows what he's doing.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, he knows what he's doing. But at the same time, I mean, I had a group of friends, I had made a group of friends of you know, girls, and I just remember this one night we're sitting out on one of the dorm patios, and there was like guys who were trying to chat up on my friends, and like I felt so non not seen, right? So, like we're sitting there, and one guy has his back to me on this side, and one guy has his back to me on this side, and I was like, I could just disappear right now, and no one is like gonna pay attention to me.
SPEAKER_01:What what were the lies that were creeping into your life at this time?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, the a hundred percent lies were you're not lovable. And and for me it was always well, I must not be pretty enough. That's that's what I always like you know, um came down to. And and I think part of that goes back. I mean, I had you know, growing up in the early 2000s where um Hollister and Amber Crombie and Fitch and all that stuff.
SPEAKER_01:And I look like Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera, right?
SPEAKER_03:Right, right. That's that's not me, and that's also not who I would want to be either. And so I think that tension of, well, I have to be myself, but also no one's like, you know, there's not gonna be a I don't know, I just I just couldn't fit in. I just clearly wasn't wasn't pretty enough. Now, there was one thing I didn't mention that I I probably need to mention. Um, when I was 16, I right around that first heartbreak that I had that was like super intense, um I was at a youth conference, or no, it's a girls' bible retreat at Leone Meadows, and there was a couple there, and um the the girl was like the lady was telling her story of how she met her husband. And it was like so clearly God-led. And I just remember thinking, like, wow, I want this to be my story. Like, this is exactly what I want, and just being so confident that God is gonna write my love story. Um, and then a year later at SoCo Camp meeting, her husband was at the teen tent and would told their story from his perspective. And it was like, wow, it's equally as like so clearly God directed. Um so having that and like being a teenager and being like being so confident that like this is going to be like God is going to write this for me.
SPEAKER_01:Was it a very romantic story?
SPEAKER_03:No, it was just so like specifically God, like to the point where they were dating other people, they were both praying that God would bring bring them to the right person. Um uh he had asked for a sign from God that was like a very specific song that would play if he was with the girls wide open by creed. That would be great, but no, it was a Stephen Kurtz Chapman song. Oh I will be there.
SPEAKER_01:I will be there. Is it is it that the one about his wife?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I'll be there when the I don't know. That's the morning. It's a good one. I know. Damn. Yeah, and so like condensing their story into such a tiny little uh catchphrase here. Basically, they were like they ended up somehow at the same place, and she had a CD player with like 12 CDs in it, and he came over and she just randomly hit play. And there was one CD that had that, yes, that had that song, that song on it that was on a wow CD. So, like, just you know, just like stuff like that, where it was just like so, you know, and she was dating someone else at the time, and so they didn't end up together yet.
SPEAKER_01:It had to go through some other what song is that? Hey, you and me are over, I'm with this guy. It could have been super tones, but it was super.
SPEAKER_03:They did, they did. I think, I think he did tell her at that time that it's like, hey, God wants us to be together, and it's one of those uh God didn't tell me that moment. But anyways, that was just that had such an impact on my life. Um, and then I also grew up with a youth group that really intensely um focus on the culture. Uh yeah. Yeah. Yep. The the ICA stating goodbye, the all of the that stuff. Thankfully, my mom never let me read the book.
SPEAKER_01:Um and did she smell uh did she smell something rotten?
SPEAKER_03:Yes. And so but but we definitely had, you know, just like our whole group was so on fire for this. Like we had some interesting pastors come in and talk to us about um, you know, you you marry your best friend.
SPEAKER_01:Did that work?
unknown:Of course.
SPEAKER_01:Why doesn't it why doesn't it purity culture work?
SPEAKER_03:Why doesn't it?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Because I know it doesn't.
SPEAKER_03:It works. It's works-based. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01:That's at least what I'm thinking of with it when it comes to it, because it's just I think that it doesn't work because it's so difficult and you want something so badly, and if you make a move and you mess up a little bit, there's so much guilt, condemnation, and shame. Yes, that you get more than that. And then you have like all or nothing thinking that's like, well, I've just done that, so I might as well do this. And then that leads to more guilt, condemnation, and shame.
SPEAKER_03:Right. No, it's for sure. I remember vividly remember we were on a music tour with with our little junior academy. We'd stopped, this pastor had talked to us, we were getting back in the bus, and like three of the girls in my class were sitting in the back of the bus bawling because they were currently dating guys from the public high school. And they were literally one of them sitting there crying, saying, Well, God can't love me anymore because I'm already dating a guy. And I was just like, wait a minute, this is not true. But I didn't have the words or the knowledge or understand. Like, I was like, I can't, I was like, God, I feel like this is wrong. But but we have, but yet I have this spiritual leader, this pastor, multiple that are that are leading us in this way and presenting it as truth.
SPEAKER_01:So I think I how how do you like if you think about this? Because the purity culture and the IKIS dating goodbye, what that that's mid to late nineties, into the two thousands. Like the people that are teaching us this are the boomers who went through the sexual revolution. Right. And maybe maybe they are overcorrecting from the sexual revolution, and maybe they made a bunch of mistakes.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, it's also interesting because I even though I never actually read the book I Kiss Dating Goodbye, it was very much a big thing, right? And then watching uh Joshua Harris as he's gone through his whole journey. Yeah, but watching his documentary, I don't know if you saw it, but I survived I Kiss Dating Goodbye. He made a video. This is before he fully deconstructed and left Christianity altogether. So he was still walking through this process. It was a couple years ago. Um, but just what where he went and interviewed people to figure out how was my book used. And I mean, he really points out, he's like, it's just crazy because he's like, I was 19 when I wrote that book. And how how was it and why was it taken as such gospel truth at that time?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I I just remember girls coming to college. I don't think a lot of guys did this, but a lot of girls did this. So, like, I'm not gonna date my first year. Yeah. But then if they found someone that they really like, they would date them. So that wasn't the problem. Um But yeah, I just think this whole guilt, condemnation, shame, all or nothing thinking, and then even how we think about God like God has one person specifically for me, and it has to look like the jukebox Steven Stephen Kurtz-Chapman thing. And it's not like God loves you. Like God loves you, and you go out there and like love people, and you know, you find out that the person that you end up with for the most part is at the same level of emotional maturity that you're on. And so like my wife and I, and through our marriage, we have been the same level of emotional maturity. Now we've grown, but you can't grow like you're not interested in someone who's at a much higher level of emotional maturity because you'd have nothing to talk about, and you're not interested in someone who's at a much lower level of emotional maturity because you also don't have nothing to talk nothing to talk about. Right. So if you just love you get out there and you just you just be yourself, you're gonna run into somebody that probably has the same amount of emotional maturity, and maybe they're different from you, and that polarity will you'll be attracted to them, and and God's like, yeah, go multiply and love each other. And we're like, no, it's gotta be a song. Michael W. Smith's gotta drop down with a piano and then I'll know for real that it was God's will.
SPEAKER_02:And I think we messed that up.
SPEAKER_03:Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree. And that's that's how it's presented at such a formative age, right? Like it's just yeah, I think it's I think it's uh messed with a whole bunch of my generation that grew up in the church, or at least grew up with that being presented as gospel.
SPEAKER_01:Mercy. So you you're going through that, yeah. You're feeling less then because you don't you don't like the Abercrombie model.
SPEAKER_03:Right. And then just dealing through college, I mean, so I was at Southern one year, um, a trans, and then I took a year off and did task force at Highland Academy, and then I transferred to PUC and did three years at PUC and did got my degrees at PUC. Um, but throughout that whole time, I never felt totally connected to like one friend group. I mean, like I would definitely uh Highland was different. Highland, I was in the working world. I mean, like, I was in an academy. Maybe it's because I went to academy so I knew what it was like, and it was just like the best experience. And I caught myself so many times being like, next year we could do this, and then being like, oh, I'm not gonna I have to go back to school and get my degree because I'm only 21. So yeah, so that was that was uh that was I felt like really connected and I felt like I had you know purpose working with girls um in the in the dorm then and then and then having to transfer to PUC, not having to, but choosing to. Um and again, I had a great time at PUC. My my year at Southern was rough for a bunch of reasons, but I really enjoyed PUC. Um got really involved with um student missions, with I mean, I was like history club president. For some reason I was voted senior class president my last year. I thought that was so dumb because I was just like, what is this?
SPEAKER_01:Like you've been there for a half hour and you're like they're voted you in.
SPEAKER_03:Or I'm already like a year and a half or two years older than everyone. I mean, because I'd already taken like a year out, and then I took five years of actual like college. So I was like a super, super senior. Um, anyways. But throughout this whole time, I mean, I yeah, like constantly busy, um, but loving that. Um, and yet at the same time, I think the lies that we're sneaking in were that you're still not lovable. Or like people love you. Like, I know that I have good friends, that I make friends easily, that I know that people feel comfortable around me. I think I have that gift to connect with people easily, but nah, it's not, you know, no guy's gonna love you.
SPEAKER_01:Did you have this contradiction going on? I want somebody to deeply know me and love me for who I am, and then also, and I don't want I don't want anyone to really know me. Like you want to find it a little bit.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, no, I think it was more um just fear-based, of just like, I think it was still just going back to I'm so afraid of getting hurt that I can't open up. Um, I do think too, part of it is I I uh it took me a long time, and I think even till I could honestly say, even like this year, because I was really struggling with this last year, of just really being um loving who I am and how intense I am. Because I look at it going like, oh, I would never want a kid that's like me because how do you handle this? Because the emotions are so big, the decisions are so you know, like hard. I'm just doing everything all the time, it's just too much is kind of what it felt like.
SPEAKER_01:You're if you're gonna be judgmental of yourself like that, you're not gonna be able to grow. Like if you're not if you're like, why am I here and why am I not there? Then that judgment of yourself, like if you're if you're just like, this is who I am, this is where I'm at, and I am okay with that.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, yes, it's yes.
SPEAKER_01:Then there's a chance like to learn and grow and be curious about yourself. But if you're frustrated with yourself, that's not that's not like the water that the plant needs to be frustrated.
SPEAKER_03:No, no, no, no, no, not at all. And I think too, um, I mean, so just I think everything I I don't want to say everything I did was just fear of something, right? So like either fear of missing out, so I need to be involved in everything, or um I mean, for sure with relationships, it was I gotta I gotta keep away from you because I can't open up because I'm afraid I'm gonna get hurt again, or you know, something like that. Um yeah, and so I think, and then throughout all this time too, I'm working at summer camp, working down at Pine Springs Ranch, loving it. I did one summer as a counselor, um, then I did task force. So then I got hired as girls director the next summer. Um, and I remember I got the I inherited the the binder, the girls director before me had kept a bunch of notes on all the counselors, and there was a high percentage of returning staff, and so I got to read and all the notes about me. It was something like I was just laughing because it was like uh something about like, oh, she seems like she would be a good staff member, but she's too quiet. Um I don't know. So again, it's that whole concept of just like I so want to be in there and I want to be talking and and connecting and in the community and with people. Um, and yet there's still just apparently I'm you know, I'm just quiet. There's those parts of me that I just have to I don't know, fear. I truly think it's just fear of I don't know, being rejected or being misunderstood, or fear of just anything.
SPEAKER_01:Not being comfortable with who you are.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's what it is. Yeah. So I mean, yeah, so going throughout all of college and into uh and and working at camp, I mean, every summer it was like I'm gonna find my husband here. That's always the monologue running in the background. And um yeah, and then just every single summer just being like, oh, just heartbreak after heartbreak. Even though it wasn't like I was formally, you know, having a boyfriend every summer, it was just like uh I'm still thinking about it, but I'm still trying to protect my heart because for sure. My mom would say I was like Elsa, gotta stop spitting ice at people. So yeah, I mean, it was just like a lot of I think a lot of the stuff I was going through is like intern, I mean, very internalized, very um holding it in um of not like the tension between like I'm not pretty enough. That was definitely a big lie that I was believing as to why I hadn't, you know, found someone or even been in like a serious relationship um throughout my college years. Um and then yeah, and then just also being like, I don't know what I'm supposed to do with my life. And yet I just again I think it was just like a lot. I feel like I felt like I was too much.
SPEAKER_01:Sounds uh sounds a little tiring.
SPEAKER_03:Sounds it's exhausting. I am so I feel like I've always been a sleepy person, and I think now that I'm talking about my life, I'm like, oh yeah, this is why. I just need a lot of sleep.
SPEAKER_01:Did you feel like you were trying to solve a lot of this by thinking about it nonstop?
SPEAKER_03:Oh, for sure. My brain is always running, even still. I mean, like constantly analyzing things. And and even when I think back about my through my relationship with God, it wasn't until later that it really became clear that it's like I surrendered everything to God except for I kept holding out saying, like, but God just haven't brought me a husband. So therefore you don't love me. Or I can't love me. Um there can't be like I can't be complete. I think that's the biggest thing.
SPEAKER_01:Man, there's so much of that. Yeah. The truth is everybody gets married. Not everybody's happily married.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Like it is better to be single than wishy were.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It is better to be single than wish you were. And the chances of you uh not getting married are very low. Let's just face it. Very low. Um the chances of you being happily married, like that's that's the more important thing. Like, do you find somebody that you guys actually match? Like, and that and when I say match, like they know their identity. They're not trying to get their identity from your love.
SPEAKER_03:That's a hundred percent it.
SPEAKER_01:Because if they are, then then you're just gonna be needing each other. Yeah. And like this is the A frame, right? You're needing each other so much that if one of you falls over, the other one falls over.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And they've got big, big, big problems.
SPEAKER_03:Well, and I think um, I mean, let's just fast forward a few years. Because I mean, I could there's so many things. Like we were talking beforehand. I went from PSC to Kettering Church, from Kettering Church to Auburn Academy, Auburn Academy to had a really tough summer at Camp Mohaven, where we were all told to go elsewhere. So I worked at Starbucks for a year, got hired at Camp Y, worked out at Y'I. Um, then my mom was diagnosed with cancer, so I came back to Spring Valley and I was subbing for her. And that's where the principal sat down and said, Hey, you're good at this teaching thing. Go get your teaching credential. So I I naturally went out to La Sierra University to get my teaching credential.
SPEAKER_01:Why La Sierra? Was it cheaper?
SPEAKER_03:No, I have family. My grandma lived around the corner. My aunt and uncle live right across the street. It's my my dad's side of the family's from there. So that's like home base for my dad's side of the family.
SPEAKER_01:Did your dad go to La Sierra?
SPEAKER_03:Oh, yeah. My grandpa was on the board forever. My grandpa went there, my dad went there, my uncles went there, my cousins went there.
SPEAKER_01:I'm pretty sure uh my parents know your parents then because my parents went to La Sierra.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, I bet they do. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It was Morris Vendon your parents' pastor at uh.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I know who that is. Yeah. I mean, definitely know them, but we got roots.
SPEAKER_01:So you're you're doing all this, you're trying to figure it out. And did you decide, yeah, teaching is the thing? This is this is my question.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. It I felt like honestly, I felt like it was this is this is where it's gonna fit. And I actually think that this is kind of where if we want to talk about like what's a what's a pivotal moment, yeah. It definitely comes from a time at Camp Y and I and um working in Hawaii. And that was definitely um going through, man, what okay, hold on. Even my life has been so chaotic. I gotta think through the timeline here. Um, 17 actually. That was the first time. 17. So I was at La Sierra. So I had already, I'd already been working as a dean um at Auburn. Auburn was tough. Um, and I say this because I think that deaning for me physically was and emotionally was the worst thing.
SPEAKER_01:Because of the late hours.
SPEAKER_03:Late hours, the emotional toll, the isolation that I had, especially Auburn at that year. Um, I actually was having severe panic attacks by spring break. And my parents, who have never interfered with my life, they've always supported me in anything I do, called my boss and said, you know, Holly is really sick and we're asking her to come home. And for my parents to step out in that fashion, it was like, oh, okay. So something's not okay. Um, and that was really tough.
SPEAKER_01:That I was deaning again. Yeah, I have those nightmares. I had it, I deaned for three years. And last night I was at Wisconsin Academy. Shout out to Wisconsin Academy, there, you have no problems. But I had a nightmare that I was the dean at Wisconsin Academy last night. Yeah. I woke up and oh, I'm in my own room. I'm not in my apartment, not in an apartment.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. No, it was, it was, it was bad. But I just say I just remember that year. So, like physically, I was sick. Um, I think emotionally, I was sick. I would say spiritually, I felt like I was good with God. Um, but I mean, I've always explained it too. It's like when when your tanks, you have your physical, spiritual, emotional tanks, and when some of them start dropping, it's gonna affect the others in some way. Um, and I I just remember thinking that there was just this darkness that came over my life that I couldn't really shake. Um, so that was at Auburn. Depression? Yeah, called depression. For gonna, yeah, didn't didn't know that at the time, or at least didn't think about it. Yeah, just tired. Um yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure depression. And um, I mean, and then that summer at camp at Mohaven, we went from in 2014 the best summer ever.
SPEAKER_01:Danica goes over this on her episode.
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:You guys went on a lot.
SPEAKER_03:So it's if you've heard, if you have heard that it was it was a it was a terrible time, and it's a huge learning experience. I hold no hard feelings, but it was extremely tough to walk through. Um, and then going so so I'm coming home from Auburn, not well, and then I I go into camp and have that experience. And I remember coming home from camp, and my brother was an SIT that year, um, staff and training, and and he came home too, and I just like broke down at home and he had no idea why. But it's because we as that as leadership had like we had tried to create that wall between here's all the problems leadership's having in their leadership, and yet camp we're still trying to run and keep running it as you know, the staff and keep the morale going. Um, and so Zach didn't even realize that until I got home that he was like, oh man, this was a really terrible summer. Um so that was that was just really tough. And being told to go find another camp that you're not felt like you're very, very much not welcome here.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_03:Um so going from that, then I I kind of honestly felt like I had to step away from church work for a while. Um, meaning I I was very active, always always been active in church. And I worked at Starbucks and stepped away completely, meaning I I couldn't help at VBS. I stopped going to church. I gotta go to Starbucks. Yeah, I could not handle seeing certain people um who would who would I felt just treated us unjustly. Um and then um then Danica gets hired out at Y and I. And the next year, when a bunch of leadership positions open up, the next summer, Danica tells Eric to call us up and say, Hey, here's a bunch of people from Ohio that know how to lead camp in the different areas. And so I got hired as programming director out there um in 2017. So I was at La Sierra. At that time. So I was already still trying to deal with my mom's. Like my mom had colon cancer. I had stepped in and started teaching um art, K to 12 art. Um, and yeah, just like a lot happening at once and throughout the whole time, I know I was I was suffering with depression. And yet I was keeping it at an arm's distance as much as I possibly could. Um, but summer camp will definitely um push and push and pull you in certain ways and bring out, you know, uh just whatever you're going through. And I mean, uh was it 2017? So 20, so 2017 I started there. 2018 I go back to camp. And so it must have been after first year teaching, which terrible first year teaching is hell. Yeah. I mean, my first and only formal observation, which yikes, um, a kid slapped another kid on the back of the head and called him a racist in front of the superintendent who was sitting in my room.
SPEAKER_01:And someone didn't want to do these observations.
SPEAKER_03:Somewhere in my record, it was like Holly clearly doesn't have the respect of her kids, and she needs to work on that. That's terrible. Um, so I mean, it was just like a lot of tough stuff going through. And I I definitely I'm a firstborn, I have perfectionistic tendencies.
SPEAKER_02:Sure.
SPEAKER_03:Um, and I think that was really keeping me. I mean, it I was really struggling. And so in 2018, when we had, I'm pretty sure that was the first, not the first, but it was like we actually had a love reality um tour.
SPEAKER_01:Like Jonathan was like the the the camp pastor that year.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, he was. He was even seven 2017 too. I mean, like, but that's where things started really ramping up, and it was really just intent like, oh, we're gonna have actual deep conversations here. Um, and and um I just remember we we a bunch of us came to camp or came the week before we ran like the evangelism series, the the I don't know what we used to call it. Um, and then at one point, Jonathan and and Eric were both just like, yeah, let's just open this up to pray prayer and pray for somebody or pray for anybody who needs it. And I just remember then thinking, I need it, and I don't know why, but I know that there's a darkness I can't shake, and it's been going on for years. And so they prayed over me at that point. And um I think that was really the point that was just like kind of just opening up that, well, yeah, opening up that that door again for me to just walk through and and walk walk free from, free from depression and free from anxiety has always been a big part too, right? Anxious thoughts. Anxious thoughts for me were always connected around um my dating life or lack of. Um and so just starting to um again, I don't even know. It was so subtle. Like I wish I could say, yeah, it was like, you know, when everything opened up, but it was preaching like freedom from sin.
SPEAKER_01:Was that concept? Did you had had you was it a novel concept to you? Were you like, what did you mean? You knew it, oh wow.
SPEAKER_03:I understood it because I took a Bible class at La Sierra from, and I'm gonna forget his name, because I was only there for two quarters, but we were going through um the New Testament, and he was bringing up the concept of what does it mean to be free from sin and free, like just I mean, it wasn't in the exact lingo, sure, but the concept was there. So it was already planted, the seed was already in my mind when love reality started. Um and so just having that, making it so clear and giving me the language I needed to be able to explain to myself and to others of like this is what freedom looks like and and what it means. Um, it was so crazy because I remember that that year too, just being like mind-blown from the aspect of I would hear things like Jonathan would say, and I'd be like, I've heard this before back here at this Bible class, or God's like, I've heard that before when my parents told me this, or like I could like pull up specific concepts where it was like, I've this has been here all along, and I'm just now understanding it fully.
SPEAKER_01:Um, what were you under starting to understand about like your identity and how God was feeling about you?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, the moment the the the overwhelming wow, like I like God loves me and created me exactly the way I am, um chose me before the beginning of the world, right? Ephesians, like that this was that that you're you're chosen, that you were lifted up, that you're blessed, that we've been giving every every spiritual blessing. That that was really just eye-opening. And I think it was just the amount of time we were able to spend um together at camp each summer, um, that really, really, really just opened it, um, just like blew it wide open for me. And I think there was definitely small increments as I was going just through life and I would be learning how to teach and then come back to camp. Um just just constantly going um between the two that I don't know, it was just like this, I feel like I was maybe receiving freedom or understanding freedom in so many ways, um except for like just one thing of freedom from cool expectations for your dating life. Yes, a hundred percent. And I mean, I even remember the one time when so we were at when we were at camp my first year, uh, being programming director is a little stressful. I mean, I stress out about everything. And there was, you know, there are times that I it would go, I feel like we had staff. I love our staff, but we had staff that year that didn't know how to be silly on stage, and I was so irritated, it was like, come on, guys, you just have to be silly. And I was like begging Jonathan to get up on stage to be like, come on, we got to teach him how to just be silly and just do funny things. Um and I would just be really like good with that?
SPEAKER_01:Was he silly?
SPEAKER_03:Yes. Oh yeah, we've got so many good things from that those years. But it was just, it was just the um, I just remember like one summer being like, man, this is being so critical of myself if something went wrong, right? And then the next, then when things started clicking, all of a sudden there was one time where I was frustrated that something didn't go right in the program. And I I cry for everything because that's how I can let emotions, you know, process emotions. I remember telling Jonathan, I was like, I was like, I'm frustrated, but there's no condemnation. Like, so having that separation was phenomenal. Um, and like I said, I could go so many ways. Like the I know that there was the I was feeling I was propping myself up from I'm coming into this new camp as a leader in a leadership position with, you know, my friend recommended me. There's so many expectations. What if I don't meet it? You know, being harsh and bringing that perfectionism on myself, that was the first year. And then then understanding that it's like, nope, God's taking away the even the self-condemnation that you're just imposing on yourself because that's not his expectation. Um and then, yeah, so lots of, I mean, for a while, Camp Y and I was my spiritual community. Uh, for every, like, I am in church still because of that, and just the connections and the the group as as love reality was forming.
SPEAKER_01:Um it's it's so important that we know God, obviously, but then that we let God deal with us. Yeah. That we let God teach us, that we keep coming back. And maybe at first we think, oh yeah, like kiss dating goodbye is the answer. And then we keep growing and we're growing and we're growing. And maybe we get to this part where we're just like, I know God loves me, but why isn't this thing happening? And then what if we get to this? God has created me for intimacy. It's not strange that I want to share my life and share my feelings and care deeply about someone and have someone care deeply about me. That's not strange. He created me for that. And I don't need to be weird about why it hasn't happened.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_01:I don't have to condemn myself. I don't have to like it's not a weird thing. It's like life has lifted and and this is where I'm at, and I'm not gonna judge myself. And I don't have to go out here and love people and my like my life is good. Do I want this thing? Sure. Am I broken because I don't have it? No, not at all. Like can we can we have all of those things and be okay? What do you think?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Um, a hundred percent because that is my life now. And there was a moment at camp because every summer, again, I would just be like so frustrated with myself because I would be like, oh, looking for a husband or crushing on somebody, or you know, saying, like, what if this is the one or it's gonna work out or whatnot. Um, and I just caught myself one summer doing this again, and I was so angry and frustrated, and I just didn't want to go through this again. Like the constant, I would call it like just the waves, like you're in the ocean, right? The waves of emotion. You can't handle it. I mean, there's too much. Um, but this is where there was one time I was at the worship tree, and I think this was the summer of 2019, maybe. Um, and that summer the Holy Spirit was moving in such obvious ways amongst all the staff. I mean, like outpourings that were like physical changes in people, and it was just the coolest thing to watch and just be talking to people, being like being set free and seeing the freedom happen at that point. It was phenomenal. Um, and I was out at the worship tree and I was so angry with myself, not at God, with myself, of why I am still going through this like roller coaster of emotions when it comes to like being single, or yeah, that's pretty much what it was. And I I was at the worship tree and Wai and I has great wind that picks up. And um, I just remember all of a sudden, well, the other part is the anxiety piece, which I guess I didn't really mention, but you know, the the fit the the actual mental anxiety of the the repeating thoughts, right? Like on repeat, right? Um, that's the part I was so tired of was the constant analyzing of this person, their actions, their thoughts. What are they thinking? What are they doing? Oh no, am I showing, you know, too much? Am I not? Da-da-da-da, all this stuff. And at the worship tree once I was just like crying out to God by myself, and the wind came up, and all of a sudden I just so thought I heard like um God's voice just be like, you know, um, I have someone for you, and it's gonna bring glory to me. And that is at least the the impression, like I just truly feel like I it was almost audible, and immediately my my brain was silent. And and I would explain it later. I remember Danica, I was trying to tell Danica about it, and I was just because she knows she's she would be my sounding board for so much of this inner chaos, and I would just be like, it's like a whiteboard, and the thoughts are trying to stick, and they just keep sliding off. They can't, they can't stay. Um, and and having that that freedom of, yeah, it's okay to to want intimacy, like exactly what you were saying, like to want intimacy, to like um just to to be okay, still being single, to uh be vulnerable, be willing to be vulnerable, and you're gonna be okay because yeah, God, God cares about this, and that that He made you this way, that you feel these things intensely, and that's okay. Um that all of it was all of a sudden just this piece that you know surpasses understanding. Um that's so beautiful. Yeah, so um that summer again, like everything that was happening, I think the Holy Spirit was like very much moving across the board. And it was just so cool to see like physical manifestations of people being set free. Um and I just what year was I doing? I was doing um, I think I was doing programming that year, which is like stressful trying to keep it all together, trying to not be perfect with it, but you know, I still have a perfectionistic mentality. I may not even do programming, media, something, doing something that was like, here, I gotta have this ready to go. Um and I think that the biggest, the biggest part, the biggest shift for me was um that I was under the, yeah, I was under the worship tree. And um I was so frustrated because I kept seeing these repeating patterns that I have in my mind that just literally like are so repetitive, are so just anxious driven that just like lies of either you're not good enough or you know, people don't think highly of you, or whatever it was. And I was so especially just mad that um I was dealing with the same thing over and over and over again. I was sitting out at the worship tree and I was just so frustrated with God in a way, and the wind picks up, and um, that's where I really felt like God was speaking to me. And then um later that week we end summer camp and we end with baptisms, and it was the coolest thing to watch. Um, not just like kid baptisms, I mean like the campers get baptized. Um, but then I think it was, what was it, Friday night of camp. It started out just with like testimony time, praying over each other, ended up going up to the pool, and we were out at the pool until 3 a.m. And uh just tons of people saying that they wanted to be baptized, um, staff that worked together all summer. And then I remember just sitting there watching it all and just being so thankful to be a part of it, um, and fully feeling like, yeah, this I'm not feeling that call. Like I've been baptized. I didn't necessarily believe that re-baptism needed to be a thing. Um and then I even watched like Danika get uh, I guess maybe it was re-baptize for her, but just watching that happen and watching Jonathan react to that was really cool. Um and then we uh go to bed and the next morning I'm just super emotional. I wake up, I grab my Bible, and I'm sitting out by myself. And I just remember reading something about baptism. I can't remember where in the Bible it was, but I heard very clearly God say, mark this, you're different. Mark this, you're different. Meaning that I feel like God had reset my mind so that those anxious thoughts, the constant repetitive overanalyzing of what I do, what other people do, what people think of me, who likes me or who doesn't like me, that that all of a sudden just fell up, fell away and it couldn't stick. And so I uh just kept feeling like, Mark, this you're different. That's what I kept saying. So I went and found Jonathan. Little did it know he already had his um swim trunks on because apparently he told Danica later he was like, Yeah, I feel feel like we were gonna be going back up to the pool this morning. Didn't know why. And by that time, most of the staff had left, and it was honestly just uh me, Danica, Eric, Jonathan, one or two other staff, and went up to the pool and just said, Yeah, like I feel like this is uh just a time for me to just rededicate my life, or at least feeling like, yeah, this is a point in my life that is gonna be different from here on out, right? That like movement of freedom, like here it is, and life is gonna be different from here on out. Um so yeah, got baptized with only a few people around in the pool at camp the next morning after this huge evening of just like amazing time with God.
SPEAKER_01:Um what was your freedom from? You know, we're free from sin, but what was the thing that you're like, this thing was holding me back for so long?
SPEAKER_03:And now in Jesus' name it's not I would say anxious thoughts, but those were driven by the concept of living in lack or living in the concept of um like what if like what if something goes wrong or I should be doing something, so therefore I'm gonna do something, and you know, um or just even that like uh fear of rejection. Um and the biggest thing that like God was withholding something good from me, right? So it's like I I knew God, I believed in him, but this is why I think Ephesians 1 was so like life-changing, because it was like, wait, like we are blessed, we are chosen before the beginning of the world, like before he even started creating. Um, and so just the bul like moving from this is the the overanalyzing, the fear of this failure feel of narrativity, all of it was just driving into these like constant mental battle that I was always going through. And then it just disappeared. And for me, especially during summer camp, it'd always just be like, Oh, I'm single, I'm never gonna find someone, and I'm constantly trying to make up stories in my mind, and those just went quiet. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So pretty cool. Freedom from the anxiety, the thoughts that were just kind of killing you.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, oh yeah. It definitely felt like that. I mean, I I think that there's been a so many stories, because again, I've done so many different things in my life, but where it definitely felt like just slowly killing me, where maybe stress levels were so high that I was physically getting sick, like I am allergic to all sorts of stuff. And so I just like a highly sensitive person. I feel like I just I sense everything, and it was just like a slow, methodical um it's death, but it also felt like a self-hatred, right? Like I can't love myself or who God created me to be.
SPEAKER_01:And so after that, were you able to finally like yourself, love yourself?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Um, I even remember like that night, actually before I was maybe when I got back and after I got baptized, I like looked at myself in the mirror and I was like, oh, I'm actually kind of pretty. And that was like to promise you, the first time I've ever thought that. Even though like I believe my parents, I believe, you know, like people have told me that before, but it I couldn't believe it at my core. So I mean, just it changed everything completely.
SPEAKER_01:Praise the Lord. Yeah. So that revelation is good because then it it gets us to know who God is. It's kind of like the way we can actually start knowing God. Before that, we don't have that revelation and we're not enough. And then we can't even know him really because we don't see ourselves as sons or daughters. And as you've moved on, and you know, we were talking about this in the background, just seeing yourself as a daughter that lacks nothing, like what has that brought? Like that idea in these, you know, living now.
SPEAKER_03:Oh yeah, I mean, it's like it's changed everything that every every way that I live. So even down to um my own like photography. So I'm I love photography. I teach photography currently, which uh is so fun because my professors in college said I'd never get a job teaching photography.
SPEAKER_01:Um in your face.
SPEAKER_03:In your face, which I still had amazing professors. Um, those are the education ones that were just saying, like, no, you know, realistically, you're never, especially in admin school, you're never gonna teach photo. And now I teach predominantly photography. Um and so just being able to go from um the anxiety that I would feel if someone asked me to take their portrait and then pay me for it. Like, I can't even tell you just like the overwhelmingness of I'm not, I can't do this, I'm not good enough. What if they don't like it? To um, I mean, I I've been shooting just this week and shooting a lot of uh family portraits, senior portraits, and just having the reaction to people when they get to see the pictures, um, and just to say, like, wow, this is so amazing and so fun. And just like seeing the beauty that I see in them, that God sees in them, hopefully they can see through the portraits that I take of them. Um, so that's one way. Um, yeah, and and and I don't, I don't think I would have ever been that confident in what I can do if God hadn't set me free from just again that the the anxious concept of living in lack because it affected every single area of my life. Um, and the other one is teaching. I mean, it's completely changed the way I teach, the the way I view my kids, the way I view my kids' parents. Um, that's or yeah, community members or church members, um, who everyone has an opinion on when it comes to education. Um, so just realizing, yeah, like what the bigger picture is and just truly seeing, again, seeing myself of who God created me to be, then it makes me be able to reach out and just see others fully in the same way. And then it also just made me um like not fear rejection, which is huge when it comes to relationships, especially just from I I remember thinking I had I can trace back anxiety or or this, just these controlling thoughts of I'm not good enough or I'm not lovable, back to the heartbreak back in high school. Um, yeah, to where it's like, oh yeah, no, I could walk up to it, you know, I could tell a guy that I'm like into that's like, yeah, I think you're really cool. And they can be like, cool, you know, not the same. I'm like, all right, it's not gonna crush me. And I know that sounds so ridiculous, but it's a that's a big deal.
SPEAKER_01:That's not that's not ridiculous.
SPEAKER_03:It's a huge deal because it's so freeing, right? Because it because it's not it's not this caption or a uh you're not just held captive um by self-loathing, by overanalyzing, by everything like that.
SPEAKER_01:For sure.
SPEAKER_03:No, that's a huge complete freedom. So um yeah, and I mean I'm still uh highly emotional, I mean highly sensitive, feel a lot of emotions, uh, can sense a lot of emotions, um, but then just being able to, and even now because we're thinking back what six years, um just like how it's completely I I can see that the emotions are there and that they can be super positive, and yet they don't have to dictate how I live my life or the reality of what you know my standing is with God and with others.
SPEAKER_01:That's powerful. Okay, we're taking a quick break from the episode. Uh, if you've been listening to this in real time in the last few weeks, you know that we just got back from our Denver get together, and it was awesome. Uh we had testimonies on Friday night, Sabbath. We were you know, speaking truth, getting uh down to the nitty-gritty with some some scripture and some breakouts, and then uh Tyre and I, we were laying hands on people and more testimonies, and it was amazing. We would love for you guys to be at the next one. Uh, but the reason we can have a next one, the reason we were able to have this one is because people donate uh to love reality. Uh and we use all that money to to keep this gospel going, to to put this podcast out, to the Bible studies, the internet church, uh, the text messages, the in-person gatherings. Uh, you guys have blessed us so much by donating. Uh, and if you guys want to see this thing keep going, uh ww.lovereality.org slash give. Uh there were people that blessed us this weekend and were able to make this thing happen, and you can be a part of that moving forward. So uh lovereality.org slash give. Let's keep this thing going. Podcast, internet church, in-person gatherings. Uh, that's what it's all about. Uh let's get back into Holly's episode. You've been moving in freedom, and that doesn't mean that lies don't pop in there.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, 100%. I mean, like, I I truly feel like that next year was uh rough to say the least, because that was 2020. Um we at at Spring Valley, we lost a staff member to COVID, or at least what we feel like is COVID. She passed away in November of 2019 from flu-like symptoms.
SPEAKER_01:And before you even knew what it was, then Martin.
SPEAKER_03:And she and I are the same age. And so just to have to have that, it was traumatic and it was awful. I mean, like it was it was so intense. And so going through that and then also um trying to teach and learn how to teach with COVID, um, I'm also the type that I still mourn the end of the school year every single year. Like I it's to the point where right now my parents are kind of saying, come on, maybe this isn't the best career choice for you because you can't emotionally handle it.
SPEAKER_00:I do that I can't handle it.
SPEAKER_03:I can't handle it. And so to to not only have that, but have it go through COVID. I mean, it was in it was awful. And um, and yeah, and having anxiety, I had anxiety that manifested in actual physical panic attacks again um during that time. And and yet, even at that same time, that one piece that had always been the anxiety, which was why am I still single, was uh totally just peaceful. Like I was okay with it. Um, the following summer, we got to do uh some uh work at YNI, uh a few of us just as like on camp uh staff, and it wasn't it wasn't a full staff year. Um, but just being able to go through um that and uh yeah, it was again just a crazy time to just really see like a reset where we were just reading, um spending so much time in in God's Word and just having that reset of okay, and then I'm gonna head back into a school year, which is pretty chaotic, because our next school year was almost equally as chaotic as uh 21. Um, yeah. But all throughout that time, I mean, since then, I there are moments where I will have uh thoughts, especially of um, yeah, why am I still single? Or or what's wrong with me? Or what I feel like what sometimes tries to get embedded is um there must be everyone thinks there must be something wrong with me because I'm 36 and still single.
SPEAKER_01:So isn't that interesting that we think that our mind's main job is to solve these problems for us. And so the question comes up, why am I still single? And so we meditate and ruminate on that thought. Because if we meditate and ruminate on that thought, we'll get to the answer and then it'll but as you've noticed, there's never been an answer. And even if there is an answer, it wouldn't satisfy in the way you think it would. And so then we that begs the question do I have to meditate and ruminate on this? And the answer is of course you don't, but sometimes we don't know that. Sometimes we don't know that, and so and we still think that our mind's job is to solve all of our problems for us when our mind is just there offering thoughts for us to consider or not, and we can consider them or we don't have to consider them. And then you realize I don't actually have to consider this. Let me consider this. And Paul tells us in Philippians 4 to consider whatever is good, whatever is lovely, whatever is pure, whatever is beautiful. Think about these things. He tells us to not be anxious about anything but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving. Bring our re request to God and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard our hearts and our minds. And so if we're playing the wrong game, and this is the game, my mind is gonna figure out this, and then I'll and then once I figure it out, then I'll get married. Then we're gonna be disappointed.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So let's not play the game, right? Let's play a different game.
SPEAKER_03:And and I think that I mean, you know, that whole concept of like, let's let my mind figure this out. I have a pretty good mind. Sure. Um, I also read emotions pretty well. And so I think that for me, in the past, it was almost just that concept of the self, I don't know, like I can do it myself or I can figure this out on my own. Or um yeah, stuff like that, but that doesn't leave you the freedom to truly love others and to truly just walk in um yeah, just walk in freedom and not have to think about it and not having to. I mean, it's completely changed everything and and how I live my life and how I teach and how I can, you know, react to to whatever whatever is happening around me. It doesn't matter what it is. Now, I still habits are really hard to break, especially thought habits and thought patterns, and um yeah, and that's taken time. Um, but I'm definitely not the same person I was, even and that's how we let God deal with us.
SPEAKER_01:Let him like if Paul is correct that we do not have to be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, like with grateful hearts, that we bring our request to him and his peace will guard our hearts and minds, and then he he tells us to consider these things, then we sh then we ought to do it. We ought to go after it. And if we catch ourselves being like, why am I single right now? The answer is, well, because I'm not married. That's the reason. That's it. Yeah, and that's okay. And it's also okay to want to be married, yeah. And then there's no rule that that has to ruin our day. There's no rule.
SPEAKER_03:I think the older I get, I have to remind myself too that even if other people are saying, you know, really good meaning people in the church are being like, oh, but what's wrong with you? Why are you so single? I can't believe you're still single. Um, that's not what they're doing. We don't need to take I was gonna say we don't need to take that on. It's not truth.
SPEAKER_00:You know what they're thinking?
SPEAKER_01:They're probably thinking, How can I get figure out what's going on in my marriage? Yeah, oh absolutely. Like, what's wrong? Like, yeah, I would like my wife or my like yeah, so many people, if they're not walking in freedom, if they haven't laid their life down, if they haven't keeping record of wrongs, they're not looking at uh like I'll give an example. I I talk a lot about freedom from pornography, and some people see that and they're just like, Man, how are you talking about that? And some people are offended, but you know who isn't offended? The people that need help. People that need help aren't looking at my reels or my Facebook posts and saying, How dare he talk about this? They're scrolling through to see if there's something that I'm saying that can help them at the moment. And so if I'm sitting there considering myself, like, I wonder what they think. Uh I I wonder if they think I used to have a porn problem. Well, the truth is I did. So if they think that they're not off, that's okay. I did. I don't. God has given me freedom, he's shown me that He He set me free 2,000 years ago, and now I'm working in that freedom and I have something to give. So if somebody is worried about I like how many people have ever thought, I wonder why Holly's still single. Man, what's she doing? I doubt anyone has, but if that they're not thinking that, they're trying to get their lives together. That's the lie that comes in that says, Yeah. And and and for you, if you believe that lie, maybe you'll go into the little depth for a little bit, but then you realize yeah, like I'm beautifully and wonderfully made, I'm the pearl of great price. My father in heaven sold it all for me, and I'm the apple of his eye.
SPEAKER_03:Right. Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:And just go love.
SPEAKER_03:So easy then. I mean, even down like even the mental the mental health aspect me piece of it, meaning I like depression is something that I have dealt with. Sure. And and I and I last year even I really went through a very, very low spot. Um and I think it was actually around the time where the internet church was doing interviews with um Dr.
SPEAKER_01:Sherry?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. It was right around that time um where I was really struggling. And again, my my parents are huge, huge supports. And my mom just called me one day and was like, God's just telling me to tell you, get up your mat, like, pick up your mat and walk. Like this is what it is. Like it's not this has no hold on you. Um, and again, it's that's exactly what it is and why community is so important, spiritual community, just like, oh yeah, you're right. Pick up a mat and walk. Um with with mental health, I mean, like, even just the concept of yeah, having speaking to God, like now being my counselor about stuff has been a really big uh recent shift too that I I've just I just like that concept now too of when I when I struggle with stuff, I'm like, okay, God, just be my counselor on this. This is what I'm feeling. And then it's like, okay, cool, then I can move on. And I can be good, I can be chill.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I'll say this. We have known each other, we we have spoken to each other and known each other for a total of one hour and 20 or 22. My word. And just from this interaction, I think that your vulnerability and the fact that you are an emotional person and you are sensitive, I think you ought to lean into all of that. You will live the way you want to live. Right. But be very happy with yourself and accepting of yourself, radically accepting of yourself, and then go out and live. Because I see these aspects of you, and I think, man, that makes you you, and I think that's awesome. And if somebody's not interested in that, well, then they can go touch grass because you don't want you would want somebody who is interested in that. You would want to be and I you wouldn't want to change yourself for somebody to be like, oh, uh now I love Holly. No, you would like somebody who's like that vibes exactly with your energy and with who you are.
SPEAKER_03:Well, and I think that this is the the biggest point, right after that experience back at camp, and I came home and I told talking to a pastor, and he's like, What if God meant that the person he has a relationship, you know, relationship that's gonna bring glory to him is the relationship with him. And I was just like, ah yeah, well, I mean, yes, and like I think it's both. But I again, I my mom said this once, and I just keep coming back to it too. It's just the older I get, the the deeper I fall in love with Jesus. And that's just what it is all the time because it's so true. I am I'm a hundred percent comfortable with who I am. And I like I said, I don't know if I mentioned at the beginning, but I think I have a superpower. I think the superpower is being sensitive. Um, I know it makes me an effective teacher. I know it makes me uh gives me the ability to build relationships quickly to where people will listen to me, that I can actually share the gospel, I can actually talk about what freedom looks like. Um the the anxious thoughts don't happen anymore, and if they do, it's few and far between because again, that concept of that's not me anymore, because I was never created for that, right? I mean, it's going back to even watching like the videos of the stuff that's going on right now. We weren't made for that. Our soul rejects that. Um, yeah, that that the only answer to everything is Jesus. Because that's that is the thread running through everything. Um just makes I don't know, it just makes everything so much simpler.
SPEAKER_01:Well, Holly, um, I see your good works. I glorify our Father in heaven. You're a blessing to us, and um yeah, we can hold both things. We can hold that your whole, your complete, your fitness. And also, he also created you for this. And and it's okay to want that. And uh God loves you. So thank you for sharing your heart and being vulnerable. I appreciate you for coming on.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, of course. Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely.