Death to Life podcast
A podcast that tells the stories of people that used to be one way, and now are completely different, and the thing that happened in between was Jesus.
Death to Life podcast
#240 Webster: From Law To Freedom
We trace Webster’s journey from a conservative Tongan Adventist home through rebellion, jail, and a degree no one would hire to a simple gospel that healed his identity and marriage. The turning point arrives when sonship replaces striving and Sabbath shifts from fear to joy.
• growing up Tongan Adventist with strict norms
• pastor’s kid pressure and hidden rebellion
• drugs, drinking, and becoming a teen dad at 17
• jail as a wake-up and unexpected door to college
• degree earned, criminal record blocking jobs
• providential roles in the church and at a K–12 school
• serving hard from obligation, not rest
• meeting Selena and facing doctrinal questions
• fear-driven legalism around Sabbath and worth
• a prodigal son message reframing identity
• discovering testimonies that centered Romans and Colossians
• freedom from sin as present reality in Christ
• marriage restored by grace over performance
• renewed desire to share good news, especially in Islander communities
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The world doesn't think that the gospel can change your life, but we know that it can. And that's why we want you to hear these stories: stories of transformation, stories of freedom, people getting free from sin and healed from sin because of Jesus. This is death to life.
SPEAKER_04:We're always having um you can say debates or about these things, especially in regards to the Sabbath. Like I was always telling her we couldn't do certain things on Sabbath. I was always, you know, I was always made like walking a pretty much tippy-toeing on certain things. We couldn't do this on Sabbath, we couldn't can't do that. And so it was a very um how can I say this? Let's just say I wasn't experiencing the freedom just yet, you know. So I was um it was a very tough time in our marriage, and it felt straining, it felt like it was a strain on our marriage.
SPEAKER_02:Yo, welcome to the Death to Life Podcast. My name is Richard Young, and today's episode is with my brother Webster. And I got put on to Webster and his story through our mutual brother uh Jean Bernard Bees. Bees said, Hey man, you gotta get this guy on the podcast. And uh, man, you're gonna love this story. Webster has such a beautiful heart, and it's so beautiful to see the gospel come alive in people, to see that they have been set free, that they have what they need now in Jesus Christ. And so, man, I love uh Webster, his story, uh his honesty, and uh how God has changed his life. So, this is Webster, uh Buckle Up Strap In. Love y'all, appreciate y'all. All right, we are in the house. This is one of the first episodes I've recorded on Sabbath. Usually I'm recording these episodes on like a Tuesday or a Thursday, but uh Webster is live from where what part of Australia are you from?
SPEAKER_04:Sydney, Sydney, Australia, particularly Macquarie Fields, so southwestern Sydney.
SPEAKER_02:Southwestern Sydney. So are you born and raised from Australia?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, born and raised.
SPEAKER_02:But you have like a you look like you're uh an anuso, like what is it? An oose. You look like uh Samoan?
SPEAKER_04:I'm not Samoan, I'm Tongan. I'm not sure if you've heard of Tonga. It's actually I know some Tonguans.
SPEAKER_02:I know some.
SPEAKER_04:So it's neighbours, it's neighbors with Samoa. We're all in the Pacific Island, and we're pretty much like brothers. So Samoa and Tonga are the same, they're Polynesian.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. But so your family's been in Australia for how long?
SPEAKER_04:Like your parents, my parents moved over to Australia probably in the 80s. Okay, so that yeah. They moved here in the 80s, and then I was born here in the 90s.
SPEAKER_02:In the 90s, you look like you don't look like a youngster, but you don't look like you're I'm trying to since you said you're in the 90s, you're you're what mid-30s?
SPEAKER_04:94. So yeah, early 30s, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, early 30s. All right, man. So where are you taking us, man? Where's the story start?
SPEAKER_04:All right, so um, yeah, as I said, my my parents moved to Australia in the 80s. They got married around that time, and then I was born in nine in the 90s. So my dad is actually a pastor, and my grandpa is a pastor as well, Adventist. So I'm about maybe third or fourth generation, I could be wrong, but I'm fourth generation Adventist.
SPEAKER_02:Fourth generation Adventist, okay.
SPEAKER_04:So my pastor, my pastor, my grandpa started the him and a few others started the first Tongen Church in Sydney.
SPEAKER_02:Wow.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, so the first Adventist Tongan Church, and he was pastoring there, and then my dad um eventually became a pastor as well and took over as the pastor at that Tonga Church, so it's Sydney Tongan Church, and he's been pastoring there since then until now. He's still the pastor then now.
SPEAKER_02:So let me know this: the Tongan culture, you know, there's different cultures that seem some are a little bit more conservative, some are a little like my my family is Hispanic, and Hispanics seem to be a little bit more conservative than like mainstream Adventists and Adventism. Where would you say Tongan's lie on that spectrum?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, they're very conservative as well. So similar to um to Hispanics, the the Tongans are very conservative. I would say all of the Pacific, so Samoans as well would be the same. And especially back in the days, it seemed a lot more strict and conservative.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Like there was there was a big emphasis on what you can wear, what you can say, that mixed with the Adventist conservative um culture, it just made it like a whole new level.
SPEAKER_02:So you were like a straight up vegetarian your whole life. I'm guessing.
SPEAKER_04:Oh well, Pacific Islanders love their food, so they they'd be eating meat, but I guess it was more with the behavior.
SPEAKER_02:So isn't that interesting that on like certain things, like we're super conservative on, and then uh and then we're like, oh, but we're so you know, we like to eat, so forget about the health message.
SPEAKER_04:Pacific Islanders love their meat. They'll they'll go hard on um, you know, their okay.
SPEAKER_01:What about caffeine?
SPEAKER_04:Um when I was, yeah, there we still, yeah, we don't really drink caffeine when I was growing up.
SPEAKER_00:Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_04:So there was still, yeah, obviously the the health message and coffee and that even co Coca-Cola, right? Like all that kind of stuff. Um, we'd try to avoid and you'd be looked at in a certain way if you were drinking it. So there was um, yeah, that's that's what the Tongan um yeah, the especially with I think the way that people dress, like you wouldn't see um dresses had to be a certain length, um, you you had to, you know, wear the certain Tongan clothes, ties. If you're in the front, you have to wear a tie, like those kind of things.
SPEAKER_02:So, was this the culture of your family? Did your family just fall in line with the rest of the tongue culture, or was your family a little more or less different?
SPEAKER_04:I think it was just um with my family and the rest of the church. So that was just like what the Tongan church is like. Deacons would be giving hidings, kids were, you know, kids not run not allowed to run around. They had to sit with their parents and like um back when I was growing up, deacons would give the kids hidings, they'll smack them. But nowadays it's obviously changed because they have to use uh you think we need more of that?
SPEAKER_02:You think we need more deacon deacons uh handing out whippings in church? Um do you think we're missing that? Probably.
SPEAKER_04:I'm actually a deacon myself now, too. So but yeah, obviously things have changed nowadays. You you can get into trouble for smacking someone, whereas back there you you know it was quite normal.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, man. So you're coming from this uh family filled with pastors. Uh who was God to you growing up with this background?
SPEAKER_04:So for me, I think God was more just um you know something that we learn, and it was more just something that someone that I know about, you know. So growing up as a PK, we had like um, you know, listening to the heritage singers and all that growing up, uh you know, reading all the kids' Bible books. So we always had our house full of those things, so I was always exposed to um Bible learning. I was also growing up in um Adventist schools.
SPEAKER_01:Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_04:So I went to an Adventist school my whole life until high school. So I was um growing up, it was like I was in an Adventist bubble, in a sense. Yeah, so all I knew was Adventism growing up, and um yeah, I was like I said, when you mix that with with the tongue and culture, it just makes it like you know, it sort of makes you scared in a sense. I think scared because when I was growing up, if you did certain things on Sabbath, if you um certain way you get a high, you get a smack. Yeah. So it was um it wasn't the most pleasant thing, God, at that time.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I I can I can relate. Like, so what were the things like were you allowed to swim on Sabbath? Were you allowed to go out and have fun, or was there like no fun on Sabbath?
SPEAKER_04:Nah, none of that. There was no um, it almost felt like if you're having fun on Sabbath, you know, you get a hiding. That's what it almost felt like for me growing up.
SPEAKER_02:You're doing something wrong.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, if you're having fun on Sabbath, yeah, but we were um and that as well as being a PK as well, because when you're a pastor's kid, like you're always looked at. For me, if I did something wrong, you know, I had to act a certain way because um I'm the pastor's kid, you know. So that everyone would look at me, and if I'm doing something wrong, they'll talk about my dad and his ministry. And so I always had to, I was always reminded that I had to behave a certain way and that I had to um do certain things, and I wasn't allowed to do certain things. So yeah, it sort of made me feel um what what's the word? Like restricted and bounded, like it wasn't, yeah, it wasn't the best feeling for me growing up.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that doesn't tend to be a good thing for pastors' kids as you as you know that so many of them end up being like super rebellious because they live with the in this under the eye of everybody for so long that they're just like, nah man, I can't do that. Did you did you feel like that, or were you like, yeah, man, we gotta we gotta make dad look good? Like it what way did you take it?
SPEAKER_04:I was um for for a long time I try to um keep a certain standard. Yeah, and like you said, yeah, I know I'm gonna do my best. Well, you know, I'm the pastor's kid, I can't do certain things, but then I think it became too much as I grew into my teen ages, it sort of became too much to the point where, yeah, I did rebel. You know, I was like, oh, you know, I can't keep this up. I'm just gonna go to the opposite side of the spectrum. I'm just gonna go go all out. And um pretty much to the point where I started to hang around the wrong crowd, I started to drink, started to do drugs. I I sort of went all out on the other side, you know? And yeah, it was it was um yeah, I I feel like a lot of that was because of that standard, that high standard that I had to try to upkeep.
SPEAKER_02:What what was uh I'm sure your dad is a wonderful guy. What was he preaching? What was his sermon? If you could if you could remember growing up, what was the main thing your dad was trying to get across to me?
SPEAKER_04:Man, uh when when I was growing up, I I don't think I was really listening or understood because a lot of um in the Tonga churches, the the sermons and everything is Tongued, and my Tongen language um is not the best. So I didn't really understand a lot of what they were um what they were preaching about at church. But I it was m more the the Sabbath schools and you know Pathfinders and that kind of thing. That's where I I learned most of the stuff that I knew.
SPEAKER_02:So when your dad was trying to get like the way he raised you, there was uh he wanted you to do right, but he was loving and and yeah, like how did he did you come out with this stuff when you started to to go against the fan? Like, or were you trying to keep it hidden?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I was I was trying to keep it hidden. So when I started to to drink and do drugs and um do all these kinds of things, I would I would I would yeah, I'd try to keep it hidden. But my dad was always um he was always there trying to support me. So sometimes I would because I was still young, I would go missing from home. I'd be going out drinking with mates, go missing from home, and he would always be going around looking for me. And like, you know, he wouldn't just be at home sleeping at peace, he wanted to make sure I was safe. So he was always, you know, showing that um loving um kindness that whole time.
SPEAKER_02:So when all this is going on, what what did you think how did you think there like you would be saved? What what was the thing that saved you?
SPEAKER_04:Man, I think um during that time I don't think I I really cared about it. Yeah, I I think it was just it was just almost impossible because of like the way that I grew up. It probably felt you know, it was I I to the point where I sort of just yeah, I didn't really care. I just wanted to rebel, I just wanted to do whatever at that at that stage. It was um yeah, I I don't think I was thinking too much about it at that time because I was still pretty young. So I was um yeah. It wasn't until I got a little bit older that I started to, you know, think about these kinds of things.
SPEAKER_02:So did the the drinking and the drugs and all that did it give it's what was did it fulfill?
SPEAKER_04:Nah, nah, never. Those those kind of things, it was um it's fun at the time, you know. It was good hanging out with the mates and you know going missing for days, but then once once it's all done and you know you're like you're coming back to reality, it's always yeah, always feel empty inside, you know? It was never it was never fulfilling. So anyways, um as I was uh yeah, I I kept this lifestyle was something that I I was doing for a few years. So this is while I was in school. So I didn't I wasn't actually going to school, I was skipping school, I was getting up to all these things, and eventually I um I became a teen dad as well. So that was another part of my story that um was very impactful on my life.
SPEAKER_02:So I became a teen dad, and that was another thing that like how old of a teen, 19 or like 16?
SPEAKER_04:17.
SPEAKER_02:That's still young, bro.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, so I became a teen dad at 17, and um that was another thing that like because this is all of this is happening, and I'm the pastor's kid. Yeah, so at church, you can imagine um what everyone would be talking, they'll be saying, you know, look at the pastor's son, he's sure he's doing he's living this kind of lifestyle. He he has a kid um at 17, and um yeah, that was that was a sort of rebellious stage of my life where I was um yeah, I I think I just I didn't I didn't care much of um you know what happens after, after, you know, after we die, or you know, whether I'm saved or or any of that. I I think at that time I didn't care much of it.
SPEAKER_02:When when you found out you were gonna be a dad, what was that like at 17? Like were were you just thinking how am I gonna tell my folks, or like what what was that?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah, I was that that's probably what the first thing that came to mind was, oh how am I gonna tell my parents, you know? I was um at that time I was I think I was more afraid of um my father's reputation as a pastor rather than uh what was to come for me, like becoming a teen dad and having these kind of responsibilities. So I was more um worried about him and um and his ministry and how this was gonna affect that.
SPEAKER_02:So after having this child, what did that do? Did that straighten you out a little bit about like the the that responsibility, or um yeah, what happened, man?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, having having my daughter at that age definitely straightened me up. I was um at by that stage, I had dropped out of school, I wasn't working, I was sort of just bumming around at home. I had my own little setup at the back of the house, and I had my cousins or the boys come over every day, so we were pretty much just you know smoking weed every day, drinking, just you know, getting up to that kind of stuff. But you can imagine when I had my daughter, like I had to wake up to myself and say, you know, this is this is not the the life I should be living. I need to do better for her, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_04:So that's definitely a big turning point for me.
SPEAKER_02:So did you start thinking about spiritual things again, or did that still take a little while yet?
SPEAKER_04:Um I was during that stage, I was yeah, I was always thinking about spiritual things, like I'd still be praying, and you know, I always knew God was there. But I guess it was um it wasn't much of a priority at that time. And while I while I had her, I because I wasn't working or any of that kind of thing, I I thought you know I'd I'd start to do a bit of studying. So I did some a few certificates at um at TAFE here in Sydney, which she's probably like undergraduate in in the States or something like that. So I started to do certificates, diplomas, you know, just while I was sort of hanging around and doing what I was doing. So I was still living that kind of lifestyle, but I I would just be studying on the side. So it actually took me a while to stop um drinking and and all that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_02:So yeah, man, what happened, what happened next?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, so um I was I was I was studying, I I completed my diploma, and then as I completed my diploma, a few days, maybe weeks after I got actually got locked up. So I I went into jail, and um I remember that probably being one of the lowest points in my life. So I was be I was yeah, it was a very dark time for me, especially being away from my daughter, who by that stage was only two years old. Yeah, so it was it was definitely um a hard time for me. But for me, when I went into jail, that's probably where I started to think about my faith again. I started to read my Bible. Um, my celly at that time, my cellmate was also Christian, so we used to you know talk Bible all the time. We used to do our reading together. How long were you in there? It wasn't for long, it was only a few months, maybe three, four months.
SPEAKER_02:Oh well, I mean, so you were in jail, not prison, like you were in like in a short-term facility, not like in a long term or yeah, not long term.
SPEAKER_04:It was um it was uh yeah, three to four months that I spent in um it's called Long Bay here in Sydney. It's uh it's actually yeah, people stay there long term. So I'm in the jail where people some are serving a few years, but I was only there for that period of time. Because um the reason why I actually got out was because while I was um in jail, because I had my recently completed my diploma, my father my father asked me if I wanted to study, um continue my studies, you know, get my degree. And I was yeah, I was I said, yeah, I was keen. And so he actually applied for me using my diploma to get me into Avondale College.
SPEAKER_02:This was before or while you're in the clink, like while I'm in there, while I'm in there. He put that in the application.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I don't know if that was included in the application. But he he he applied for me, used my diploma, and so I went to when I went to court um to appeal my case and whatnot, they he they put that there. They said I've been accepted to study my degree, and that was that was the the main reason why I was able to get out of jail.
SPEAKER_02:Man, shout out to your dad.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, my dad being on top of things there. Yeah, exactly. He was there that whole time. Even though I was um going through these different phases in my life, he was he was always there supporting me and and helping me, so I'm forever grateful for him.
SPEAKER_02:Man, what was being in jail like that? I mean, three or four months when you got out, what was that like?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, it was uh yeah, during that time, like I said, it was a low point of my life. So when I got out, I remember then thinking, yeah, I I probably need to change my life around. And my I sort of had my own faith journey from there. So that's when I probably started to think about you know about God and and my relationship with him. So it was um it was another turning point in my life where I had to change things around. So I I got into Avondale College, I was I was studying, I wasn't on the straight path just yet. I was still, you know, you know, the college life, you go and party with you know everyone else, and and so I was I studied there, I was there for three years. I I completed my degree in business accounting. So I I remember just thinking being so happy about that because especially the life I was just living, you know, I was pretty much a street kid, I was in jail, I was, you know, I was I wasn't the best growing up, but I was able to make this achievement. So graduating with my degree in accounting was a big achievement for me. But the only issue from there was I had a criminal record.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:So when I was to apply for jobs or anywhere I go, they're gonna see that I have a criminal record. So who's gonna hire an accountant who's gonna hire someone to look after their funds when they, you know, they've recently come out of jail. So that was another roadblock in my life. And so I I actually started, I went back and started working in factory.
SPEAKER_01:Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_04:Working in a factory, working on construction site. So I had this degree, but I couldn't really do anything with it because I was um because of my criminal record. So as I was working in these um in the factory, working I was working um scaffolding.
SPEAKER_02:I'm not sure you know if you know what scaffolding is, but that's what you know what a scaffold is, but I don't like you're just like building these things on the outside of buildings.
SPEAKER_04:Yep, yep. So I was pretty much doing scaffolding at that time, and then I I applied in the meantime I applied for an accounting job. There was an accounting job at the conference, and I think I think they must have been desperate for someone because someone was going on maternity leave, and I don't think um it was sort of like a last-minute advertisement. They needed someone ASAP, and then when I applied for it, they pretty much gave me the job. It was a six-month contract, but they gave me the job, and it was a payroll job. So I was looking after the wages of all the workers within the Greater Sydney Conference. Eventually I found out that there was only two people that apply for that job. It was only myself and someone who probably lived overseas in the Solomon Islands or something like that. So they gave it to me.
SPEAKER_02:You you only need one person to want to give you a job. You don't need five, you just need one job, right?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah, that's it. That's it. So I knew I knew for sure that like God was working in my life, you know. I'd seen him um carry me through through this these phases in my life where I was, you know, dealing with drugs and alcohol, where I went through jail, where I had this roadblock of criminal record, my past, you know, catching up with me. And then he was able to get me this job in um in the conference. So I was, you know, I was just so grateful for where he's brought me in my life. So I was working there for six months and yeah, it was it wasn't the easiest job. It was I was probably I probably didn't um were like were live up to the standard of what they needed. So I was there for six months.
SPEAKER_02:Somebody got like an extra thousand bucks.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, probably.
SPEAKER_02:No, my bad. My first job. I'm out here scaffolding, but like help me out.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I I probably did. I probably, you know, giving some people a bit extra money, who knows? Yeah, but I was there for the six months, and um by the end of that six-month contract, um, yeah, it was my time was coming to an end. And obviously, because I I was struggled to keep up, they they just let me go after that six months. And I remember thinking, man, what what am I gonna do with my life now? So, yeah, after that six months, I had um received a call from the business manager at the local Adventist School, pretty much saying that they they needed someone, you know. So this the timing of this was just like you know, straight after the six months, then they needed someone. So everywhere that I went, I had this roadblock of my criminal record following me, but then I had these, it's like they all of a sudden in Sydney they were short of accountants or something where I was needed. So I was I was blessed, and I when I look back, I can see the way that God pretty much carried me through these, you know, these obstacles in my life. So that's pretty much where I ended up at the school as the accountant, as the birthday there, and that's where I am today. That's still where I am today.
SPEAKER_02:How long have you been working there?
SPEAKER_04:Since 2019.
SPEAKER_02:Oh man, you're a young guy. That was like 2000. What year were you in in jail then? That wasn't too long ago then.
SPEAKER_04:I was 20. This was I was in jail. I got out in 2015.
SPEAKER_02:Bro, I'm thinking like this is so long ago.
SPEAKER_04:This is not that's been more recent, yeah. These are all like so all of these seconds.
SPEAKER_02:I'm thinking like that's okay, so since 2019, you got this position. Yeah, and uh at at an adventist, is it like a a K through 12 or I don't know how you do it? It's K to 12.
SPEAKER_04:K to 12.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, and you're you've been doing the finances for the school there.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I've been doing the finances for the school, and I've been there for a long time. So, and it's the the school is actually about five, ten minutes away from where I live, so everything works out perfectly.
SPEAKER_02:That's awesome, man. So yeah, throughout all this time you're seeing God working, yeah, 100%. Um yeah, tell me what what yeah, keep going with the story.
SPEAKER_04:What happened to to give you a new So I I was during this time because of how I've like I said, because of how I'd seen God working in my life, I decided, you know what, like I like I things need to change, you know. So that's probably the time that I actually stopped drinking, I actually stopped the drugs, I stopped, you know, going out and all that kind of thing. So I the the lifestyle pretty much. So my lifestyle changed from there. I was more committed to church. I became a deacon. I was um cleaning the church every week. I'd be at church cleaning it, you know, setting it up and all that kind of thing. So it's almost it was almost transactional because God had done all of this in my life. Yeah, I felt like I had to sort of repay him. You know, so I was yeah, that's that's the kind of um period I was going through that time, and I was um that was yeah, I I felt like you know, that and that was my life for a while, you know, for a few years until I met my beautiful wife Selena in 2022. So I I I met my I met oh at the time obviously it was my girlfriend, and I met her, and then we started to talk, and I was living this life already, so I was I was the deacon. I was by that stage I was the youth leader as well. So I was doing a lot of work with the youth. So I was heavily heavily involved in church.
SPEAKER_02:Did you know her from before any of this?
SPEAKER_04:Um, no.
SPEAKER_02:So she didn't know your whole background, so that that's like a fun conversation.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah, it was. So she didn't know my whole background. I met her, and then um we just you know, it's spoke about our faith, spoke about God, and um she used to like ask me a lot of questions what I believe. I'll ask her what she believes. But then um, yeah, eventually, eventually we did get married. But one thing about one big reason why she's a a big part of my story was because she started she seen that I was doing all these good works, but then she started to ask me questions about what I believe and about pretty much about the Adventist, my Adventist background.
SPEAKER_02:Because she's not an Adventist.
SPEAKER_04:She's not an Adventist. Okay, and when she started to ask me these questions, like I couldn't answer them. You know, like I'll and it made me realize that I grew up Adventist my whole life, and I probably didn't know anything about the church or anything about what the church believes. All I knew was all I knew from growing up was what we believe is the truth. You know, sure. Anything else is wrong. That's that's because that's what we're taught, you know. We're taught that we we have the truth, you know. And so she started to ask me these questions, like sort of questions like investigative judgment, asking questions about you know 1844. So these are questions that I had no clue about. I actually didn't even know about the investigative judgment until a few years ago.
SPEAKER_02:So all these okay, so you're from Australia, your parents got there in the 80s, you didn't come around for a degree of letter. You know that the investigative judgment, Australia, and the 80s, like that's a big deal in Adventism.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, it is. That you know, obviously that I I when when she brought these questions up, that's the first time that I actually started to research our church history, research what we believe, research the 28 fundamentals, our our stance on certain things, and then I obviously found out about the Desmond Ford situation and everything that was happening at Avondale at that time. So I didn't know any of this until you know, until these questions came up. And then I was like, man, uh she started asking me this question, then I actually started to study it for myself. And not only was I studying it for myself, I had questions, you know, like well, is this, you know, it doesn't sound right. Or you know, like I started to um have questions about things, but then I just started to look into it and say, All right, yeah, I get it now. And so when I started to um look into these things, I reckon I started to become more of a conservative. When I started to see these things, I'm like, oh, you know. And when I when I listen to these um preachers, when I listen, when I see um what LNG White says about the the investigative judgment, when I see all these things, I take it as truth. And it scared me, you know. I started to like um I had to be more strict with um with with my wife, I had to be more strict with my kids. I wanted to make sure that we are all ready, you know, for this judgment, that we are all gonna make it to heaven. So I was I was a bit worried, you know. I started to, in a sense, fear our salvation. You know, I I was a bit worried that, you know, um when Jesus comes, he's not gonna take us. So I started to be a bit more worried about these things. I started to look into the the prophecies, the Daniel and Revelation um prophecies as well. And and so that was a another um phase of my relationship with God where I had to I wanted to make sure that my wife and my kids and myself were ready when Jesus was coming to take us, you know, pretty much. And I guess when I started to look into our beliefs, it it made me think about all these things.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, I want to take a real quick break from the episode to tell you about my friend Josh. Now, one of these days Josh is gonna get on here, but he shared something uh with our Love Reality Facebook group about how uh hearing a sermon online and then going to this podcast changed his life completely. Uh, seeing what he already had in Jesus Christ. Uh, the legalism uh fell away. The but but more important than the legalism was the self-worth problems that he was dealing with, and how God freed him from that and allowed him to see his identity as a son. And so I praise the Lord for that. And I praise the Lord that the reason he was able to hear that is because people um like you uh have donated, have given money so that we can continue doing this ministry. And uh that is our plan, that we're gonna do it no matter what. And so with your help and your blessing us, um, we can continue to get this message out there. And that is the plan to tell everybody within our our hearing that they are dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. So if you want to partner with us, go to lovereality.org slash give. Uh uh ww.lovereality.org slash give, and let's keep this thing going forward. All right, let's get back to Webster and the episode. How did you what'd you come up with?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, man. It was it was honestly, it wasn't it wasn't really pleasant. I I I started it it drove a more work-spaced relationship where you know I had to force things, I had to well, it probably it that's what it felt like. I had to make sure that we were, you know, reading the Bible, I had to make sure that we were at church every Sabbath, I had to make sure that you know we were um cleaning the church, we were doing certain things. These are things that I felt we had to do in order to be saved.
SPEAKER_02:Mercy.
SPEAKER_04:And so we were we were at this um stage in our marriage, and we were we always um were having conflict about these um things, me and Selena. We we were always um we're always having um you can say debates or about these things, especially in regards to the Sabbath. Like I was always telling her we couldn't do certain things on Sabbath. I was always, you know, I was always make like walking a pretty much tippy toeing on certain things. We couldn't do this on Sabbath, we couldn't can't do that, and so it was a very um how can I say this? Let's just say I wasn't experiencing the freedom just yet, you know, right? So I was um it was a very tough time in our marriage, and it felt straining, it felt like there was a strain on our marriage, sure, you know. So this was what was going on, and then um we had a youth week of prayer coming up, and then the guest speaker is guess who?
SPEAKER_02:Bees, Jean Bernard, yeah, Bernard.
SPEAKER_04:So it was it was um bees. Bees was the guest speaker for this certain um youth week of prayer, and he and the topic was the prodigal son. So when he came and he had took the week, man, like just the way that he was speaking about the prodigal son, the way that he showed, told the story, and the way that he was pretty much um preaching gospel, it was um something that me that changed me and me and Selena's life. We were, you know, just um, yeah, look the way that he was saying, the main thing that got to me when he was speaking about the prodigal son was that even though the son was in that foreign land, when he took his share and he left and he was doing all these things in the world, his identity never changed as son. He was always son that whole time. And one thing that he kept repeating was, you know, we are princes and princesses in the palace, we are not slaves in the pig pen. You know, and these these are pretty much ways of saying, you know, we are righteous, we are not, you know, slaves and we are not um condemned or any of that kind of thing. So the way that he was bringing this prodigal son story and the way that he was preaching the gospel here was was life-changing for us. Yeah, so I remember when yeah, bees coming at that time, and then at the end of the week, man, it was a blessing. Do you know how at the end of these week of prayers and these things, like everyone's always on that high, everyone's always um they're buzzing, they're on that spiritual high. And so after the week of prayer, we had a big lunch at church because it finished on the Sabbath. We had the big the big lunch at church, and then I went and spoke. Me and my wife went and spoke to Bees. And we were just talking to him. We were thanking him for the week. It was um, it was just yeah, life-changing the way that he spoke about the gospel, the way he spoke about Jesus. It was just what was different about it.
SPEAKER_02:What was what was different?
SPEAKER_04:I guess um what we were used to um when it came to the message in the church was you know more of an emphasis on what we need to do. And it was more a you know, when it comes to like the way that um the message is preached, he's like, yeah, like I said, emphasis on what we need to do, but then the way that Bees was preaching was more an emphasis on like what God has done and what He is He has already completed and what He has called us. So when he like you know, he started to bring all these Bible verses that I I feel like I never heard them before when it when you know God is calling us righteous, when He's calling us blameless, holy, above reproach. You know, these verses here I'm and and when He's bringing these verses, I'm thinking, man, this is like I've I've probably read these verses before, but I didn't realize that it is something that we can claim right now, you know? Yeah, that these are verses where He's called this is what God is calling us. It was probably in the past I thought it was something that we have to work towards rather than something that He is calling us, and that's probably where the main shift was when He was um when he was preaching throughout this week. So we went and spoke to him. I introduced him to Selena, and I was pretty much saying, you know, she's not Adventist, you know, but we've like we're we've been seeking pretty much. And then he pretty much like he spoke to us the whole time, pretty much the the gospel message, and then he he told me to listen to your podcast. He sent me the link for Karen, he sent me the link for Bees, and that's pretty much the first time that I was exposed to the whole love reality thing, you know. And when I started to listen, listen to all these materials, honestly, it was life-changing for me.
SPEAKER_02:So you like he's like listening to this podcast. Most of the time, when someone recommends a podcast, you're like, Cool story, bro, yeah, I'll listen to it, and then you never consider it. But there was just something about his message that you're like, I need to hear this brother's story.
SPEAKER_04:Exactly. It was something about the way that he was pick painting this picture of Jesus, where I was like, whereas my whole life I had a different picture of Jesus, you know. So the way that he was painting this picture of Jesus was something that I wanted to, you know, hear about. And then when I started to listen to all these testimonies on your podcast, I lit I start, I was listening when when I was first introduced to this, I was listening to episodes like every day, different episodes. And when I was listening to um, I listened to Karen's episode, I listened to Bees' episode, and man, just listening to all these different testimonies of young Adventists who grew up in the church, who had the same similar you know upbringings to me, who felt the same way um as I did growing up, and felt like you know, they couldn't really experience that freedom in Christ. It was it was something that I was definitely able to resonate with, and it yeah, it changed, it changed my life, you know, experiencing this this freedom in Christ, and you know that we're free from sin, and we we don't we no longer have to worry about these things because Christ has already completed it, you know. So this is just life-changing for me.
SPEAKER_02:When you were listening to Bees and Karen's episode, because they're really vulnerable, they really share their heart in their episode, specifically about their marriage and the struggles and you know, with wanting to have kids. Were you amazed that they were so open with their story?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I definitely respect um respect them for that because you know they they didn't hold back, they were transparent, they were able to, you know, open up their heart and talk about issues that not many people like to talk about, you know? They were able to be open about it, and and I'm I'm I'm sure that you know that experience would help them as well. Talking about these things definitely helps, you know, and it was something that I was I definitely respect them for that, and it was life-changing for me. It was something that changed my life, listening to their story as well as um this whole gospel message. You know, it was when I first started to listen to all these testimonies and um to the material that um love reality had to offer, I almost felt that it was too good to be true. You know what I mean? I was thinking, man, is this is this really true? But then when I look back, this is all coming from the Bible, so it's it had to be true, you know. And when I was listening to this, I I there was something that you know I felt I came across as I was going through this phase. And that was obviously the Ted Wilson speech when it came, uh like when he started to speak about love reality.
SPEAKER_02:Oh yeah, he he he mentioned something about us, didn't he?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, he did mention something, and I remember when I came across that, I came across that, and I was it sort of just like you know, it's I was I was so happy, you know. I was going on the side, like seeing all these things and these good things about Jesus. And when I came across that video, I was like, oh, you know, and because of my picture of you know the leaders in the church and the church of stance, I started to question it. I started to question, like, oh man, is this you know, is this really true? You know, and because of what he said, I was starting to think, may, maybe maybe it's not true, you know, maybe this is too good to be true.
SPEAKER_02:Well, what is the it that is not true? Like specifically, Romans 6 7, for one who has died has been set free from sin. Is that the thing that's not true? Or like there, because like when you think about it, like hopefully, and this is what we aim to do, we're just preaching what the Bible has said that Jesus has accomplished, right?
SPEAKER_04:Exactly.
SPEAKER_02:So, like when you're like, what was the it that you're like, I I wonder if this is not true.
SPEAKER_04:I think I think it's that what you said, Romans 6, 7, where you know, we're dead to sin. Uh like Colossians 1, where it says we are home, we are holy, we are blameless, uh, we are above reproach. And the way that you know, all these verses show us that, you know, like Jesus, like you said, he's already completed it. You know, he's already completed it. We just gotta believe that it's been completed. And the way that the love reality community operated, because I watched a lot of the materials. Obviously, I haven't joined joined an internet church or anything like that, but just seeing the way that you know, the way that you guys speak, and you can see that you know it's life-changing, you know, you're more happier. Whereas if you're to go to a uh Adventist conservative church, people sort of look like robots, you know, they they're sort of stuck. And I was when I started to see what Ted Wilson was saying, I was thinking to myself, man, maybe is it too good to be true? But then the more when I came across this love reality stuff, that's probably when I started to read my Bible more. That was the first time I started to read my Bible, and I started to see things from a different lens. I started to see all these verses, particularly in Romans and in um a lot of Paul's writings, where this is these were all true, these are all from the Bible, and so that that's what drove me to um to this gospel message, and it's not only changed my life, but it's changed my my wife's life, it's changed our marriage. Everything is before we felt you know strained, and you know, there was always like uh disagreements and on certain things. Now, when it comes to our marriage and our relationship with God, we're on the same page because we know it's not your theological stance or it's not what you believe, or you know, different things, it's all Jesus, you know. That's what what unites us, it's Jesus and it's and what he's already accomplished for us. So that's that's where the yeah, that was been that's been life-changing for me. But during this, because this was all happening for me, and this was only last year, so you can say I'm new to this freedom in Christ, you know. You you can say I'm new to it. And when it when I started to talk to bees a lot, around the start of um when I'm listening to all these things, I I I went to bees and I I had a lot of questions for him. And I was telling him, All right, so if this you know this is all true, what about things like you know, what about the Sabbath? What about these kind of things? And then he there was this word that he he told me about. He's like, oh, you know, Karen was going through the same thing, and I'm not sure if you're familiar with the word, it's scrupulosity or something like that.
SPEAKER_02:Scrupulosity, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Scrupulosity, it's OCD, but when it comes to religious things, yeah, religious OCD, and he brought that, he showed me what that is, and that's I didn't realize it until he told me that, but that's what I had religious OCD. I was so focused on religious practices, I was so focused on things that I need to do, how how they had to go in a certain way, the way that the church says has to do things, I was so focused on that. That's where my obsession was on religious practice.
SPEAKER_02:You you really think you actually had the obsessive-compulsive disorder with this, or do you think that you were just a little legalistic? Because like I've counseled people with scrupulosity, and they're ruminating on how God is upset with them. They're ruminating, like it's it's a constant, they live in their head. And man, my heart goes out to them and I try to teach them about how to think about how they're thinking and and like taking a step backwards and all that. And it is it's intense because the rumination, they think that thinking about these things will will set them free. And that's the problem with scrupulosity. Thinking about it actually sends you deeper into the prison. It doesn't actually set you free. You were you thinking and ruminating on it so deeply, or did you just catch yourself with a like a little bit of the legalistic idea about it?
SPEAKER_04:It probably wasn't that intense to the point that you're speaking of. But it was, I feel like it was a little bit of you know, ruminating about it, but it was probably just a legalism, you know, a lot of legalism in the way that I operated, in the way that I thought things needed to be done. But looking back at it now, I was pretty much keeping the Sabbath the same way that the Pharisees were in the Bible, you know, like they had they were always particular on what they can and cannot do. But that yeah, just going through this um this phase from then, it was yeah, it's definitely changed my life. And I remember one during this time, um I was I was watching a sermon um of Justin Ku. It was just a random live stream at what's their church in Hawaii? Is it Kailua? Kailua. So I I because I I knew they went to Kailua, a few of them, and so I would sometimes just go there just to watch a sermon on their live streams. Sure. And he was preaching um on Matthew 13, okay, which was the you know the pearl of great value, and he was preaching on this, and that was um Matthew 13, 45, where it says, again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls. When he found one of great value, he went away and sold everything he had and brought it. So when I read this verse um growing up, I used to think that we are the merchant, we are the ones that have to, you know, give everything up in order to obtain heaven. So we were working so hard, you know, we had to do everything from our end. But then the way that he presented it was that we aren't the per we aren't the merchant. Jesus is. But the gospel is not actually about us, it's about Jesus. And I guess that that sermon and the way that these things were presented just painted the gospel much clearer for me. It made me understand that, yeah, that man, it this whole time I'm so focused on what I need to do that I forgot about what he has already done for us. You know, and just listening to all these stories, and when I started to study, um actually read my Bible a lot more, then it made me realize that all of this is true. You know, these these things aren't just you know, these people aren't just you know having a good time and enjoying the gospel or whatever. It's actually true, it's from the Bible, and it was something that changed my life. Yeah, so it's been it's been a crazy journey for me.
SPEAKER_02:When when you would come back to Bees with questions, would would he did he seem like he was nervous? Or when you asked him the question, he was like, Oh, yeah, let's talk. Like, how did he handle that?
SPEAKER_04:Whenever I had questions from him, he was always excited. Every time I came and spoke with him, he was never nervous, you know. He was never like felt like he was being um, you know, interrogated or anything like that. Every time I had questions from him, he was always excited to talk about it. And seeing the way that he was excited to talk about the gospel, to talk about Jesus, that was another reason to what how I understood the true character of God through Jesus Christ. And that was a big um, a big yeah, Bees is a big part of my story, and I'm I'm always grateful to Bees and Karen for their testimonies, for the way that he's uh you know, been connecting with me. And because you know when we're growing up, right? We're always taught to go, you know, spread the word, you know, like go like spread the gospel, spread you know the word the word of God. And for me growing up, it didn't really seem enticing to do that. Like I didn't really feel like I wanted to talk to my friends about God, it was it seems very hard to do. But then when I started to understand the true character of God and the freedom in Christ, and that we are dead to sin, to speak about God seems so much easier now. That's obviously the reason why I started this podcast. It's the uh it's the reason why it's you know, I jumped on here, it's because it's it's so much easier to talk about God now than it was say two years ago. It's yeah, like man, it's it's something where when you come across Jesus and what he's done for you, there's substance to it and it transforms. And that's why when you see what he has done with say Zacchaeus in the Bible, when Zacchaeus came across him, he transformed. You know, he was a tax director, he was cheating people. As soon as he came across Jesus, he gave everything back and more, you know. And that's I I felt that happiness inside when when I came across this gospel, the gospel of Jesus.
SPEAKER_02:Um I'm always telling people if your pastor has to preach a sermon about how you need to go preach the gospel, he he probably ought to just preach the gospel because that that would be the thing that will get you excited. Now, if if the gospel isn't the gospel that he's preaching isn't enough to get you to go out and tell somebody about it, well, then he doesn't understand it. He's actually not preaching it because the gospel is the good news of what has happened, it's not like get your life in line. Because if you have to feel like you got to go out there with a sign and say the end is near, like nobody wants to do that. But if you want to go and tell people that the world, like God has reconciled the world to himself through Jesus and that they're part of it, and that they and they have it, and would they just believe that is uh that's different, right?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, and that's exactly right.
SPEAKER_02:I I'm thinking of this, man. This is Jeremiah 31, and this is uh a prophecy. This is verse 33. Jeremiah says, For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. This is God speaking through Jeremiah. The house of Israel after those days declares the Lord, I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people, and no longer shall each one teach his neighbor, and each his brother saying, Know the Lord, for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and I will remember their sins no more. So the way that God writes his laws on our heart, and a way that he does it so that we don't have to go and say, Oh, you should know the Lord because we know him, is that he forgives us. The way he does it is he frees us from sin. Yeah, that we die with him. And so I remember one time I was like, Man, Jonathan, you know, just talking about how Jonathan has set up, like how we teach this thing, wave one, night one is freedom from sin, right? I'm like, that's a really good way to start, you know. How did you decide that? And he's like, Richard, that's the story. Like, this is what Jesus did. He did free us from sin, it's the only place to start. And I thought, oh, I had I had started so many other different places, and because of that, the news that I had wasn't great, it was okay, but it wasn't enough to transform a life, you know. A life like Jesus forgiving you is what transforms a life, right?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, that's right. Jesus, but the thing, the funny thing is, we have heard that growing up. Jesus forgiving you, he died for your sins.
SPEAKER_02:But then we've heard that Jesus made a way for you to be forgiven. We have not heard that Jesus has forgiven you.
SPEAKER_04:True, true. That's right.
SPEAKER_02:So it's like Jesus has set up a new system in which in this system, like you can be forgiven. So, like there was an old system, right? And the old system was the tabernacle that you bring a lamb, yeah, and there's all these rituals and all these practices that you would follow, and then you would be forgiven. And now Jesus is the lamb, and so now you jump through the hoops with Jesus. But what if the system is just that Jesus forgave you, that he is your advocate with God, that because he is a human and died, that your sins are actually forgiven. Would would you please believe that?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:It's not a new system, it's a person. And he is your forgiveness.
SPEAKER_04:Amen. Amen. And all of these things is the All there in the Bible, word for word. Yeah. And it seems like I don't know how we missed this. I missed this growing up. You know, probably because I didn't spend enough time in the world.
SPEAKER_02:Because I missed it the same way, man.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, but it's just crazy, man. It's just crazy. And it's like like I love what you said. If if the pastor is telling you to go spread the gospel, then that's all wrong. Because you know, if they just preach gospel, you get excited about it and you want to spread it. But yeah, that's that's pretty much the yeah, that's pretty much the reason why I started the podcast because uh like I uh I feel like um this gospel messages message is something that is probably needed amongst uh my Pacific Islander community. You know, my the Tongan Samoan community in Sydney. And um and yeah, because like yeah, it's yeah, I don't know. It's just it's exciting, you know. It's exciting to know that we have we serve a God who values us and who loves us. And when I understood my identity in Christ, it just yeah, I actually feel valued, I feel loved, and it's changed the way that I treat others, it's changed the way that I love others, it's changed the way that I serve him. You know, I I feel I didn't feel like I have to serve him because just because he's God. I feel like I serve him because of what he's done for me, you know.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, John says it like this He says, Whoever uh loves is born of God and knows God because God is love, and then he gives the reason that people can't love. The only reason in scripture that it's hard to love is that you don't know God the way you could. And so because you have a clear picture of God through what Jesus has done, right? Because Jesus isn't like the cool version of God, Jesus is God. Yeah, that's right. If if you can't see it in the person of Jesus, then it shouldn't you shouldn't see it in the person of God, like Jesus is God, yeah, and so you seeing that now we're able to love. Where before we wanted to love, but we couldn't really, you know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_04:100%, 100%, man. Yeah, it's it's life-changing, and a big a big reason to that is your podcast, you know. And I just wanna like I said, I want to thank you for everything that you're doing with the Deaf to Life podcast. I was listening to other podcasts as well, you know. Um other one, Dusty Boys as well, another podcast. Yeah, so these these are kind of yeah, it's just opened my eyes to the true character of God through Jesus Christ.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so I'm well let me let me ask you this. Well, praise the Lord, man. Let me ask you this, and and we'll wrap up this way. Where would you get like what if you dropped in the time machine and you're gonna go back to to Webster at a certain point? What what what point would you want to go meet up with this kid?
SPEAKER_04:Probably when I was a teenager, I'd say.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I feel like you get to put your arm around this guy, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Definitely get to put my arm around this guy, and I'd just tell him that you know that Jesus loves you and that you are enough. Yeah, you know, there's you don't have to, there's nothing that you can do to make him love you more. There's nothing that you can do to make you love make him love you less. And I guess that's pretty much it, you know. It's life-changing, it's life-changing when you when you understand God's true character and what he's already done for you.
SPEAKER_01:Amen.
SPEAKER_02:Well, bro, I I really believe that one day, it probably isn't too far from now, oh, we're gonna have somebody on the Death Alive podcast because of your testimony and because of you pouring life into them, because that's how it works. Um, our lives get changed, and then we just go out there and we're not even trying. Like, this is just our life now. And uh we pour life into somebody, and their life gets changed. And so, man, I I thank you for coming on and sharing your story. It's a it's a testimony to us that God is love, and so yeah, thanks a lot.
SPEAKER_04:Thanks for having me, man. Appreciate it.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely.