Death to Life podcast
A podcast that tells the stories of people that used to be one way, and now are completely different, and the thing that happened in between was Jesus.
Death to Life podcast
#243 Byron: Aftermath And Grace
We trace Byron’s journey through a powerful week of prayer, the quiet drift of friends, and the choice to let God defend him. Restoration shows up in a song, a beach, and a courage to move forward without bitterness.
• recap of the week of prayer and early fruit
• misunderstandings about theology and labels that stick
• fractured friendships and limits of “giving space”
• burnout, Sabbath rest and seeking God’s voice
• Portland trip as reset and honest lament
• God’s confirmation through Jesus Loves Me
• released from role but not from calling
• the beach gathering and symbolic washing away
• grief for losses and gratitude for transformed lives
• choosing reconciliation and trusting God to vindicate
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The world doesn't think that the gospel can change your life, but we know that it can. And that's why we want you to hear these stories: stories of transformation, stories of freedom, people getting free from sin and healed from sin because of Jesus. This is death to life.
SPEAKER_00:And I tried my best, even in those moments, to just kind of hopefully plant some seeds and say, hey, we don't have to sit and agree theologically. We can still come together and move forward. Like there is a path forward. I still believe that if if you have two people who maybe don't align on everything theologically, granted, there needs to be some level of consensus theologically. There needs to be some overlap theologically, but I think if there are certain levels of overlap, I think there is an opportunity and a path forward.
SPEAKER_02:Yo, welcome to the Death to Life podcast. My name is Richard Young, and today's episode is with my man Byron. And it would make a lot of sense if you would go back and listen to Byron's previous episode, um, because a lot of that will tie in. And Byron uh brought me out to Southern California a couple years ago to do a week of prayer. It was my first week of prayer, and then it got crazy. Um, and so uh this is a conversation about the aftermath of that, and there's been some hard stuff, and there typically is some hard stuff as you've heard on the podcast, whenever the gospel is preached, um, sometimes there is pushback. And so, how Byron has navigated that, how God has blessed him, given him hope and uh discernment is what this story is all about. And so, uh, yeah, like I said, it'd be better if you listened to his previous episode. Uh, but this is Byron. Uh, buckle up, strap in, love y'all, appreciate y'all. All right, this is a throwback episode. And why is it a throwback episode? Because the first couple episodes I recorded of the Death Alive podcast were like two and three in the morning when I was working at Amazon, and it feels like that right now because it's 10 41 at my time. And so this better be a sp- I this needs to be a spicy episode to keep me awake. That's why I called Byron. I said, Byron, come on down, man.
unknown:Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00:Aren't you excited? Dude, I feel like I feel like we're we're we're getting you're getting on the roller coaster and you're and you're going up on the first drop, and you're just kind of like click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click.
SPEAKER_02:No, man, it's all good. Okay, so la when did we record last time? Was it like the same time Arnold came out? Was it like in October after that year that I was out that we did the thing?
SPEAKER_00:Do you I think it it's it's honestly blending in my head. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I don't I know it was around the same time. I don't know if I was before or he was before me. I don't remember.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. Well, just to get if you haven't heard Byron's first episode, I recommend that you go listen to it. It's powerful. God loves us so much. Um, but if I'm gonna give a quick recap, and I am, I'm not even gonna, I'm not even gonna let you talk right now. This is your your second episode. Um, Byron, you called me up two and a half years ago and were like, come out. I didn't know you. I don't think I knew DDA. I don't think I knew Sean. I didn't know anybody. I just I didn't know you. And you how did you get a hold of me?
SPEAKER_00:Forget. So well, actually, you did know you did know Sean and you had met Didi. You did know I had. Yeah. Sean was how I was able to get connected to you. Okay. Yeah, you'd done this thing, you'd done this thing uh with Sean, and then I was like, oh, I wonder if if if Rich would be open to coming out and you know, sharing. So I reached out to Sean and he connected you and I, and then that's okay how things come.
SPEAKER_02:Shout out to Sean, who has had me come out since then and has gotten yelled at. Uh I'm getting less and less places that I can go speak. But Sean, that's my guy. He didn't care. He's like, I don't care. So um I came out, but before, and I think this is important, and I we probably talked about this on the first episode, but before we came out, you and I spent some time in fasting and in prayer, and we were intentional about this week, and this is the first time I'd ever done a week of prayer. And then um, I get out there and I meet just beautiful people, the Chans. Uh, from day one, like the first time I'm hanging out with them, it's amazing. Meet you the first time I'm hanging out with you and your family. I'm like, this is awesome. I get to meet John, I get to meet Arnold and Sharon. About halfway through the week, we actually got to be friends before that. I didn't know what was going on. And it was just a huge blessing. It got a tad bit contentious towards the end of the week, but not anything crazy, not anything, just kind of like, man, that was a little weird. Um, but then uh Sabbath, we ended together and it was like this beautiful thing, and I had this amazing time. Uh what's happened since then? How has your life been? What's going on? We want to hear the story because I think a lot has happened. I've seen you several times. Yeah, it's been two and a half years. Uh talk to me, man. Where where do you want to go?
SPEAKER_00:Um that is that is a great question. Um I where do we want to go? The truth is, man, there's so many different places we could go. Um but so at at that time, okay, let's let's go here. At that time, I was when I brought you out, the reason I was able to bring you out was because I was the uh associate pastor at the church at that time. Right. So with with that, then I I was given the opportunity to uh you know bring people out, and you came out, you did a week of prayer. Um and I I got to have some front row seats to some of my really good friends being restored, renewed, saved. And I don't and I'm not just talking in the hey, you had an encounter with God, which is the most important one. I I'm also talking about just like their lives were saved. Um their marriage was saved, right? So I got to have front row seats to that. I'd already seen God kind of moving in a certain direction, um, and I and and I got to see that and I was like blown away by that as well. But in man. So as as this stuff was unfolding, um there were one of the stories that has come up for me uh a few times as as I've been reflecting on on the experience and and what happened subsequently is the story of the sower, where the sower goes and and puts seed down in different different uh you know different uh parcels of land, and depending on the type of the soil, different results come up, right? And it was wild to me because I was watching the things unfold after that, and I was watching people, some people that were initially uh reportedly blessed, I saw them start to shift in their posture. Uh yeah, I saw them start to shift in their posture towards uh myself, um, towards others who were blessed um by your coming and sharing. And um yeah, and and and and and I saw some of that happen. I also saw I also was realizing I was seeing some also some things kind of start to show up that made me think like, oh, maybe there were some folks who from the beginning weren't weren't on board with with the the fact that what was being shared uh well with what was being shared. I I I also noticed that. So and and as the as the time moved on and moved forward, I saw the like the I guess I had some people shift in their posture. I saw some people be um hardened in their posture. Um I saw yeah, a number of things kind of unfold. And one of the ways that I was one of the ways that I was uh impacted by this or or yeah, by this was that there were there were friendships that I had, relationships that I had that took a very took a turn. Took a turn. Um and that was very painful.
SPEAKER_02:Let me interrupt you real quick.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:When have you ever heard of this podcast called Revisionist History? Malcolm Glidewell does this podcast.
SPEAKER_00:I've heard of it. I don't know that I've listened to it, but I I I've heard of it.
SPEAKER_02:Well, the idea is that stuff happens and then later on we look back at it, and it's not it's not actually what happened. It's through the lenses of of like all that's taken place since then. And so we have a look back at it. And I'm thinking about all the interactions that I had that week, and I don't think I had one negative one to my face, not one. Like when there was a there was one, like I said, the Sabbath afternoon, it got a little contentious, but people were super like they were cool to disagree, like there was some stuff, but yeah, like we were explaining and talking about it. One brother, man, sweet heart of a man, he confessed to me this deep, deep thing. And I was ministering to him, and I think he was receiving what I was saying, and this was no one, we were in the back, nobody could see us uh behind the behind the sanctuary. And then months later, he wrote me a Facebook message that was just like, you're a false teacher, you're this, you're that. And in that, like that week, like he was really struggling, and he didn't he was just a beautiful heart. Like and then it seemed like the things that were said, like that wasn't actually what was said as completely different. And I think about the gospel like this too. I think about the idea of sinners saved by grace. That people now living in 2025 in Christianity believe that that is always how the church fathers actually viewed it, that they always had this sin conscious mentality. Like and it's gone so far that we're like, well, this is how now certainly it is how Martin Luther saw it, certainly it is how like Wesley came along and was he was preaching perfectionism. Like things have happened through the years, and it's caused us to look at scripture even and look at it through this lens of all this other baggage that has come onto it by either Augustine's view of it, Luther's view of it, and it doesn't seem to match up. And it's yeah, and so I I was just thinking about that today. I was listening to a book where the guy was like breaking down the history of the early church, and they're like, yo, they didn't have this sin consciousness, they didn't have this sinner saved by grace mentality, they were saints, and then they were walking in a manner worthy of their calling. And then I think about that same thing with with what happened two and a half years ago.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, I I hear you, and and I think as I listen to you, I think about, for example, Paul's writing when he writes to churches, right? And think seeing how he identifies them, how he positions them when he talks about them, right? Yeah. Um, and and it it's interesting to see that, and it's like, okay, it's it's I think also I don't know, I think sometimes you read the Bible so much, or you hear about scripture so much, passages so much, that you miss some of the stuff that's said, and then you just gloss over it and then you move on, and then you end up um just holding on to the stuff that, like you said, the the stuff that's been trickled down that you've kind of taken in that you don't realize you've taken in, right? Yeah. Um, so I think that happens a lot. Um and and I'm not let me not project this onto anybody else. It happened to me, it's happened to me, which is one of the reasons that you can go back and listen to my, you know, to my first episode of the podcast and uh or my first episode here, and then you can hear kind of what the aftermath of that was in my life before I you know before I started to understand who I am in Christ. So yeah, man.
SPEAKER_02:Uh we get influenced, is my point. We could get influenced, like we have soft hearts, and then if we're we're influenced, like we end up changing the view. Oh, he he was saying crazy things. Like I was at the church and I spoke. This is the first time I did, I spoke like eight or nine times. It was crazy. Like I've never spoken that much. And nobody came to me and said, This is wrong, what you said, and people were there the whole time. And then it comes out months later. Oh, I was saying a bunch of stuff that wasn't true.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, it's not it's not something that came out. You were hearing about it months later, and there was stuff happening behind the scenes that I was not privy to, that I was not aware of, even before you ever came out. So before you ever set foot at the church, there was stuff that was going on, there were conversations that were being had about concerns and points of disagreement and whatnot that I was not aware of, even as being holding the position that I had at that time, being the associate pastor. I didn't know that was happening. Nobody came up to me and pulled me aside and said, Hey Byron, we have these concerns, or I have these concerns, uh, and this is what's going on. That that never happened, um, which was uh unfortunate. Um yeah, because I uh I deeply I believe first and foremost, God's God's plan and his desire for our life and the purpose for our life. Like, let me let me say this. I believe that God created us to be in relation to him. At the core of what it means to be human is to be in relation to God. That is our that is our ontology, right? That is our that is our our thing, the thing that we were made for, the thing that makes, and in my opinion, the way that we relate to God, uh, that is what makes us human. The way we relate to God and to each other, that is what makes us human. So at the core, that that is who we are as human beings. And so Satan tries to undermine the essence of humanity by attacking our relationship with God and attacking our relationships with each other. And as a result of my understanding of this, and even before my understanding of a lot of this stuff, I was of, I've been a deeply relational person. I love getting along well with others. I love, I'd also, I also like to try to have open conversations with folks. It's like, hey, and it's not because it's easy, it's not because it's fun. It's actually oftentimes uncomfortable maybe to have conversations with people that we disagree with. But my hope is that we're able to not allow there to be a space and opportunity for there to be continued misunderstandings and continued distance uh between myself and my brother, my sister, because then that fosters, that's what Satan uses to foster further lies and further division and further resentment. It's harder to, it's harder, it's harder to dislike someone that I'm in contact with. And when I'm saying that, it's not what I what I just said right now, that's not just a concept. That's actually there's research backing that same thing. That when I'm forced to have contact, relation, like even if it's not maybe the most close relationship, but I'm just having a uh contact with somebody, there is this way in which it's harder for me to believe negative things about that person. As opposed to when I say, you know what, I'm gonna write you off and I'm gonna move on. And I'm not, please, please don't misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm not saying that we are meant to always remain in abusive relationships. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that that aside, if we are able, if we have points of attention or dissonance in a relationship, if we are able to remain uh somehow connected and in conversation with each other, it it makes it more likely that we're able to see the fullness of who you are and the nuances and to be able to find actual common ground and at minimally say, hey, this person has a good heart and they're striving to do well and to good to do good here in this situation.
SPEAKER_02:Man, I I've seen like you will go to great lengths. I think this God has given you a heart for this and a gift for this. You will go at great lengths and you will be uncomfortable and you will sit in uncomfortable spaces because you believe this so much. Like you want you want reconciliation deeply.
SPEAKER_00:I do, man, because I I deeply want reconciliation because that's what mercy. Obviously, I think the first and foremost thing that Jesus did on the cross was to reconcile humanity to their creator, to their God, right? Like that is what Jesus accomplished on the cross. I think another thing he did is because another thing that was lost in the garden was relationship among humans. That's what was lost, that's one of the biggest things that was lost in the garden as well. Not the biggest thing, but one of the things that was lost in the garden. When you see Adam and Eve kind of have this moment where Adam's like, Well, you gave me this wife, right? Um, and so I believe it so much because it's it's it's something that God has come to restore as well. He's He's come to restore us to each other. And it's and if that means that I need to be in an uncomfortable conversation for three hours, four hours at a time, um pouring in whatever I can to try to grease the wheels of reconciliation and reconnection, so be it. I think what was has what has been very painful for me and very difficult for me is A, that in this in this season, in this chapter, um that despite my efforts to have those conversations more frequently and more openly, I was not those those opportunities were not given. Um and and and and the minimal opportunities that were given, they were they're very limited. And I tried my best, even in those moments, to just kind of hopefully plant some seeds and say, hey, we don't have to sit and agree theologically. We can we can still we can still come together and and and move forward. Like there is a path forward. I I still believe that that if if you have two people who maybe don't align on everything theologically, granted, there there needs to be some level of consensus theologically. There needs to be some overlap theologically, but I think if there are certain levels of overlap, I think there is an opportunity and a path forward.
SPEAKER_02:So if if if you're somebody who's listening to the podcast and it's like you've listened to four episodes and you're listening to you, like give us a little bit of more of a background. The argument is over, is it over pretty much righteousness by faith? Like, what is the thing that gets from from your vantage point that you've seen people specifically in this situation like start to split that you that ended up you hurting, like losing some friendships?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. The actually that's that's one of the more that's a that's a painful um that's one of the painful factors in this equation. Um because I think that the things that the the points of the points of reported disagreement or dissonance theologically were not even things that I actually believed. Like there was a misunderstanding of what it is that I actually believe. And then and then despite my best effort, well, yeah, there was a in despite my best effort in certain in certain contexts to try to clarify what it is that I believe, that didn't get very far.
SPEAKER_02:Um but okay, true. Ted Wilson comes out, I don't know how many years ago, and he says this thing about love reality. He gets up in front of some year in council and he says this thing. And Ted Wilson says they don't believe in sanctification, they don't like he said a bunch of stuff that wasn't true about us, and not because he was being malicious, he doesn't know what we teach or preach. I don't think he's ever watched it. I'm sure he's had some people but I think if he did know, he still wouldn't agree with us just based on what he does preach.
SPEAKER_00:Well, but maybe, maybe not. Yeah, maybe, maybe not. So this is something that I it's not that I didn't have any conversations with anybody. There were there were maybe one, there was maybe one person that I did get to have a few conversations uh in regards to what it is that I believed. And in in in that conversation, I was trying to be as transparent as possible. I'm not trying to hide anything. So I said, hey, you know, we were having these conversations and trying to compare notes and saying, like, hey, I was being asked very specific pointed questions about certain certain uh aspects of my theological understanding, and I was sharing what those were. And then after that, I went ahead and said, hey, actually, I think these are the points or these are some situations in which you and I might actually disagree. And I brought I was the one that was bringing them up and saying, like, hey, this might be where we disagree. And then there was an exploration of what it is that I just said, and there was and and the response that I got was actually no, it sounds like it it connects and it makes sense with my understanding as well. Now, do I think there there are do I think there are uh points of of disagreement or are or ways in which maybe the more new there's nuanced difference? I I think there is. I think, but I think the problem is that we're not even able to have that conversation because because again, there's not a whole lot of understanding of what it is actually that that is actually believed. So regarding, so for example, I mean, uh, I I I'd say part of the, in my opinion, part of the tragedy is that you don't even get to have that conversation, for example, with Ted Wilson and and to actually see truly where he lands. Because I think that sometimes sometimes we have these belief systems that, or we have certain beliefs that we don't necessarily articulate. Like there's aspects of our belief system that we just kind of hold and we understand it, and inside of us they exist. And then when we when we externalize them, when we put them into words, we hear it and it gives us an opportunity to reflect on it. And if you have something that maybe is not exactly what I used to believe, but maybe give me an example, give some clarification, then it gives me an opportunity to um yeah, to to say, oh, okay, maybe, maybe I I do believe that. So, for example, for me, one of the things that for me was the the thing is I think I unconsciously believed that we were we were going to that that sin was something that had power over me. Now, had I read that in scripture, no, but my lived experience told me that I did that that was the case, right? And so it wasn't until I actually listened to the podcast, to the Death of Life podcast, that I actually started to realize and listen. I was like, wait a minute. The Bible actually literally says that I have power over sin, that I have the power to have victory in my life over sin, that I don't have to live in a way in which uh I I I'm just like, okay, I've repented today, but I don't know about tomorrow. Tomorrow I might fall back into sin and I'm gonna have to go back and you know do this thing. So for me, that was one thing, right? That it wasn't until like I heard it explicated out loud that I was able to say, oh, okay, there is a difference here. There is something here that I that I didn't believe or or or or that I understood a little differently.
SPEAKER_02:Isn't it interesting that, and I'm sorry, I introduced you, it's like we don't want to say the quiet part out loud because that's too much. Even though we say, like, we believe that it's Jesus that makes us righteous. If we say that, we're like, well, that's kind of scary. We don't want people to stop working hard. It's like this weird, like. And I've run into so many people that are like, like, I did a podcast yesterday where the sweet girl was like, I knew that it wasn't my works, but I believed it was my works.
SPEAKER_00:Because, yes, so there's a dissonance, and and that is something that I I would agree, yes, I would agree with that. There's a dissonance that we oftentimes have between our mind and our heart. Like what sits here. So I'll I'll I'll give you an example of what that looked like in my life. I I am a graduate of uh Fuller Theological Seminary, and while I was there, this is not an Adventist seminary. I would share life with a lot of wonderful Christian people. For four years, I hosted an interdenominational Bible study in my home on Friday nights, and we would all get together, and that's where you have a Roman Catholic, uh, uh someone from Fours Square, someone who's a Baptist and uh Presbyterians coming together, sharing life together and worshiping together, and digging into the Bible together. It was a beautiful time in my life, man. I loved it. I I think of it fondly. And um, but one of the things that shifted for me in that experience was that when I went to seminary, I, in theory, here in my head, I knew that these were also children of God. But in my heart, because I was raised within this concept and this framework, that I have the truth and I have it all figured out, or I have a lot of it figured out. Actually, I would say maybe I thought I had it all figured out, right? And I I I but so there was that disc, that dissonance between my mind and my heart of what I understood and I knew. So my mind knew in theory, these are children of God. My heart thought, uh, are they really? Right? And it wasn't until I shared life with them, I shared life with them, and I saw them in worship and I saw them live their lives that I that it really hit me and I realized, wait a minute, these are genuinely brothers and sisters of mine. These are just as much children of God as I am. And it's interesting, is that I I wonder if some of that was done also for them as well, where maybe they got to see a Seventh-day Adventist because we people that are Seventh-day Adventists don't necessarily have the best reputation among Christian circles because of our belief systems. And so we're often either they have unpleasant interpersonal experiences or theologically we're viewed as a group of people that have anyway. That's a whole other conversation. A cult. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, a cult. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And so when they And not in the cult, like in the sense that we're like killing babies, but like that we are outside of Christian orthodoxy. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So that's what a lot of Christian or circles believe of us. And it wasn't until they shared life with me that they're like, oh, he he's actually a follower of Christ. Like, oh, so this was a it was a mutual awakening, I would say, that happens. So, but yes, there is absolutely a moment where we have that disconnect. But here's the key though, here's the key that it's not until you enter into a relationship with each other that you're able to see that and acknowledge the Christ in the other person, right? And and that was one of the painful experiences that I had with this whole experience is that as as time moved forward, I actually saw less and less of the points of contact and interaction and and and sharing of life that actually allow for you to see the Christ in each other and for us to see that happening, right? Um, and and yeah, and that was that was rough. That was rough um on a relational level.
SPEAKER_02:All right, we're gonna take a quick break. Uh, as you know, we're gonna be in Michigan coming up in December, but we're also gonna be coming up in the new year, gonna be in California. Gonna go back to Justin Coos crib. It's gonna be a good time. So there's a chance to meet up with us in person. I think we're pretty full. I think we're at least at capacity for Michigan. But if you want to kick it with us in Southern California, that would be awesome. Uh if you can't kick it with us in person, we do meet up almost every day of the week online. And this is my community. Uh come chill with us for either internet church or worthy of everything or the book club. It's been a lot of fun. And so uh come and kick it with us. And as always, if you want to support this ministry and the gospel being preached going forward, you can go to www.lovereality.org slash give, and uh we can keep this thing going in 2026. All right, let's get back to the episode. Yeah, yeah. So as this thing happens, the gospel's preached, you like you've seen lives, but then soon afterwards these relationships that you've had for years start falling apart. How did you handle that?
SPEAKER_00:Uh initially, initially, I when when when I saw that some folks were avoiding me, kind of like they weren't as quick to say hello, or there was this uh emotional distancing. When you have a relationship with somebody, you feel it when someone kind of takes a step back relationally. You feel it. It's a thing you're able to acknowledge and notice. Um, and so when I started seeing that happening, I said, okay, maybe they just need time, they need space. So I'm gonna I'm gonna give them their time and their space. But unfortunately, as I took a step back and I gave them their time and their space, I saw that that didn't make things like that, like things were not getting resolved. If anything, I saw things, uh I saw people kind of more determined or set in, um, at least behaviorally set in their posture of you believe that way, I believe this way, we're not gonna coexist here. Like we're gonna coexist by kind of staying out of each other's way, as opposed to actually like, you know, engaging each other.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's interesting. I think that there is some sense that sometimes we need a little time. And by a little time, I mean like if you're having an argument with your spouse and you're emotionally unregulated, go on a walk and like an hour, an hour.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But if you're like, I'm gonna give them space for you know two weeks, like that amount of time is not actually gonna be doing healing, and you're not connecting with that person, and so like we think time is this magic formula that's going to fix things. And then people, you know, they go to marriage uh counseling and they're like, Yeah, we've just drifted apart over time. Like the time was not actually doing what they wanted to do if they thought that. And so, yeah, maybe an hour to you for you to cool down in that sense. That time is well spent. But then, oh yeah, three weeks later, it didn't seem like you guys were closer, right?
SPEAKER_00:No, it didn't. Um there was, and so then at some point I reached out to a few people and I said, Hey, are we okay? Like there's a difference here. Are we okay? Um, in one of those instances, the conversation, I don't think any of those conversations, I don't know. Let me not speak for the other people on the other end of those conversations. I personally did not experience any of those conversations to be bad. Um, I actually experienced them to be helpful. Um and I thought that they allowed me a space and opportunity to clarify some stuff because look, I'm not here to try to convince something of something they don't want to be convinced about. I don't think that's how this works, right? I think that uh if if you if you do not want to have a conversation about something, I'm not gonna try to force you to have that conversation. Uh, I'm gonna respect your decision. I think that's what God does as well, right? Like if we're saying, you know, go kick rocks, God. I don't want anything to do with you. He's like, all right. God's like, okay, I respect your freedom of choice. That's why I died on the cross. So you actually get a chance to actually choose, right? So I said, okay, but I I thought those conversations went well. And one of those conversations, I thought things were clarified, but then repeatedly I found myself having the same conversation with that one person and realizing I don't know why we're having the same conversation. I've already explained myself and shared what what it is that I believe. And and and so um, and and but but it one of to to the credit of that person though, I think one of the things that was fruitful out of those conversations was that I I can honestly say that today we can have a genuine, that person and I can have a genuine conversation and mean well for each other and genuinely see each other in the street and genuinely like wave or say hi or have small talk and not have it be fake or feel forced. Um so the relational dynamic I think was preserved for one of those cases. In all the other cases, the relationships were never the same. Um one of those cases, or a few of those cases, like the relationship just continued to to deteriorate more and more. Um, one of those other cases, there was a slight regression to where we were before, but it was never again the same. And and what was interesting, yeah, was also that as as this stuff was unfolding, I I started to, yeah, the the amount of support that I had. There was people that have always that always had my back and always supported me and my and my role as the associate pastor, and then just interpersonally, they're wonderful, beautiful people that I love dearly that consistently did that for me the whole time I was there, and even to this day, they continue to do that. Now, um, that are actually not folks that you necessarily would have interacted a whole lot with. There was an there was there was another group that uh it was it was wild, just how every time, for example, I was in charge of a program, you intentionally you're not there. There's like you you're not there, and at some point it's not it's no longer a coincidence when every single time I'm in charge of a program, I'm in charge of something, you're not there. It's also painful to watch when I'm tasked with the responsibility of the of the young people of the of the congregation, and then there was a concerted effort to protect the young people from me. And every time there's a new person, a new young person coming into the congregation, there was this concerted effort to uh like I guess the picture that comes to mind is like when when you're in baseball, like two people are running to the same base, right? And you're like, who's gonna tag the base first? It almost felt like that, not because I was trying to force my way into you know anything, uh point of contact with with young people coming in, but it felt like they were like the young people were being, in essence, I guess, kept from me or protect, like in the minds of maybe the people that were doing this, maybe protected from me or whatever the case is. So I start to realize that. And I also start to realize that some other things start to change too. I used to have opportunities to to engage and speak in other areas of ministry related to the the the church, and all of a sudden that that is no longer there. Those those opportunities, not necessarily like at some point they did feel like they disappeared, and ultimately at the end, they did disappear, but at some point they were just kind of just more sparse and noticeably more sparse. Um yeah, and and and in some some other spaces outside of the church where there had been some collaboration of in ministry, some of those other spaces I never heard back from those other places, even though up until that point we'd had some really good communication and some really good points of uh collaboration um in in youth and young adult ministry. So so what was this doing to you, man? This was tearing me up inside. This was tearing me up. Like this was this was rough. Um being a pastor, just just being a pastor by itself is a lot. It requires a lot. I've never done it, but it's I hear it's hard. It's it's a lot, man. Being a pastor, it's not just for for some people, it you might see someone preaching, and you'd be like, oh, that person should be a pastor because they delivered a good sermon. Not every good, not every preacher is a pastor, and not every pastor is a preacher. But if you're gonna have someone who holds the role of a pastor, you need to understand that first and foremost, it's a calling. Second of all, it's absolutely relational. You have to relate and be in relation and share life with the people you're serving. If you don't do it that way, uh you're not, your your ministry is gonna be limited. Um and so, yeah, it it and because it deals with human relationships and human interactions and all this other stuff, it's it takes time. It takes time to develop, it takes time to do other stuff. So just pastoral work, even if everything is going according to plan, is difficult and and requires a lot out of you. Um, and there's a reason, there's a reason why Jesus, when the disciples would come back from mission, they like he would take them away to rest and to recover and to kind of pour into them. Um, and so yeah, and I at that time and it was wild because I was putting in a lot of time. I I had a full-time job outside of being a pastor, and combined, I was at times putting in 60, 70, 80 hours a week, and sometimes for two, three weeks at a time, um, especially during the summer. Like there was there was weeks where I worked all all seven days, and then I'm back to back. So I worked like 14 days straight, uh, 18 days straight, um where there was just constantly stuff going on. So that those those strained relationships, because I love relationships, I love getting along well with folks, that was that was deeply hurtful, deeply distressing and unsettling. And then in addition to all the other responsibilities that you have, in addition to making sure you're trying to be present for at home with family, uh, with wife, kids, and and and then other people that you share life with, you know, my family, um, my community. So that was just that was very taxing, man. Honestly, that was very taxing and and and very and and honestly, and and this is one of the things actually I think I want I wanted it or was willing to kind of put out there. Like, if I'm if I'm keeping it 100, man, it burned me out. Like that burned me out. What burned me out was less so the programming and the pastoral aspect of things, you know, like showing up in people's lives and being part of people's lives. It was the other stuff, man, that really burned me out to the point where I was just at yeah, and in the process, I was trying my best to try to shield my wife and my kids um from the stuff that was going on, the stuff that I was seeing, the stuff that I was at some point finding out about. And then because at some point I started to have people actually seek me out to tell me that hey, did you know that this is what's happening? Did you know that this is what's being said about you? Did you know that this is what the game plan is to make sure that the young people are protected from you? Like, did you know that this is what's going on? And so as I I and I was doing my best to try to protect my wife's heart, my kids' heart. I'm a pastor's son, and as I shared in my first in my first episode, that I grew to hate the church for a while because I saw all the negativity that my father had shielded me from, but I got to an age where I could see it firsthand. And there's a while where I hated church and I wanted nothing to do with church, and I didn't want that for my kids. Uh I don't I don't want that for my kids. So that that burned me out. And at that point, man, I was just I would go to God a lot, man. Obviously, I would go to God. God, God and the people He put in my life were the reasons I was able to get through all of that. Um Yeah, and I got to the point where I burned out, and I I would go to God. Oh, this is something that I was gonna say, yeah, I'll get to the other thing a little later. But one of the things I would say is, dude, I'm a talker and I'm not known for being I'm not known for being like I'm known for maybe saying things and then having to like that's not true. I'm not necessarily known for that, but I I I don't have a problem saying things that need to be said um and expressing things. That that's not something I've I've I've generally had an issue with. And especially within my family, it's known that if there's something that needs, if I think there's something that needs to be said, I'll say it. And mercy, like I want it so badly to defend myself, to say, hey, the things that are being said about me, they're false. The things that are being uh the the things that are gonna be said about me, they're not true, they're inaccurate. Let me clarify the let me clarify the narrative, right? Because there was a group of people that were having a lot to say about me and yet never actually having conversations with me. And when I asked to have those conversations, I was never granted those conversations to have to with those people, despite my efforts and my desire to have those conversations. So I was like, you're not okay, so I want to have a conversation so we can reconcile and address the relationship. Um, but but I'm being told no that the other side is not willing to have those conversations. And I respect that if they're not willing to have those conversations, but then they're nonetheless having conversations with others about me and our and and what I believe in stuff, which was problematic.
SPEAKER_02:So how is a Christian supposed to navigate this, bro? Like, we're supposed to live joyful, peaceful lives. We're supposed to agree where we can. Yeah. And but there's some things that, like you said, we do have to have some conduct common ground, or else like, were you trying to figure out like, how do I do this? How do I live and like let Christ shine through this thing? Like, how'd you do that?
SPEAKER_00:I mean, that absolutely that's what I was that's that was one of the constant points of prayer for me and constant conversation points between myself and God. I was saying, all right, God, so help me help me navigate this. What do I do here? How do I how do I do this in such a way that I'm able to preserve these relationships that I care for deeply? Um and it was wild what he told me though, because part of me wanted to like I absolutely wanted ultimate my ultimate goal and desire was to preserve those relationships. There was a part of me that wanted to just defend myself. And and you know, and one of the and the thing that God told me repeatedly that was difficult for me to receive was he said, Byron, I defend you. I fight for you, I vindicate you. You do not defend yourself, you do not vindicate yourself. I do that. So don't go and try to fix this on your own. Because fix it or or or or do the things that you have in mind to do or to say, to defend yourself, or or whatever the case is, because that's not what I'm calling you to do. I've called you to this place to serve and to sacrifice for me here. Um this is what I've called you to do. Um, and so and that was that was difficult because I I very much wanted to do the uh I wanted to defend myself and I wanted to explain myself and to clarify things. And I wanted, and one of the things too, I wanted to tell people like, hey, we don't even have to talk theology, let's just address our relationship. Let's just get back to some place where you and I can can be in a space where we're able to love on each other and pour into each other. Um can we do that? Um yeah. So yeah, so we were that that's what I was trying to do. And and and keeping it 100, man, there was moments where I had to just go to God and be filled with Him and have and and share, like, hey, this is what's on my heart. And I know that what's it's on my heart right now is not conducive to to your love and to a positive relationship or dynamic with the people I'm I'm sharing church life with. So you need to take this from my heart, take, take this frustration, take anger, um, guard my heart from resentment. Um take all these things from me.
SPEAKER_02:There's this verse in Proverbs where the author says, above all else, guard your heart, because out of it flows life, I think, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And so I I I saw you in Portland, I don't know if it was the next year, and I could tell that you were being weighed down. Like if life is flowing from your heart, yeah, it felt like there was like a stoppage there, it felt like there was a log jam, it felt like the stuff of life was now it had got in there and was just it wasn't moving.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that that's accurate, man. Um, there were moments where like at that time when I went to Portland, it was a God is such a God of like He's so in He's so intentional about when things happen and how things happen. Um going to Portland was I I was this was before I was I I took I went on sabbatical, but when I went to Portland, uh I was feeling pretty, I was already feeling pretty spent because I was exhausting, I was exhausting all the skills I I had to at my disposal and coming up empty-handed. Right? I've been casting the net and I've been casting the net in all night and pulling up no fish, man. You know, metaphorically speaking, as far as creating relationships, uh the the the youth and young adult ministry was growing, people got baptized, people were being blessed, like that was that was going very well. Um the the youth, like we're the youth program was was growing and and and developing. Thank you to uh the the great and awesome work of the the people that were part of my team and also Dr. Matthew Tan and his wife. They were the all of that was blooming and growing, and it was amazing. All of that was going very well. Um there was some understandable moments of of yeah, some hiccups here and there, but in general, it was going very well. Um and yeah, so when I went to Portland, I was I was in that space. So one of the things that I realized when I went to Portland is that because of these things that were weighing me down, and I was starting to look inward as opposed to outward, um I yeah, and I and as I'm thinking and reflecting on it right now, I think that part of me was maybe even feeling sorry for myself in that time um because of the stuff that was going on. And so, but I I the the voice of the spirit was not as clear in my ears. I actually, as a matter of fact, when I went to Portland, like I would say like I would hear like bits and pieces of the spirit's voice here or there, but sometimes it was so drowned out by the stuff, like the hurt, the the frustration that it was it was like, wait, was it the spirit? Was it not the spirit? That's where I was when I went up there. Um so and it was coincidental, man. I I had no idea you were gonna be there when I planned my trip up there, and I just, you know, and I finally see you. I was like, oh shoot, this brother's here. And so then when I went there, man, I got to to worship and to connect with my brother. Shout out to my brother Elias. Like he's he he is someone who I love him so much, man. Like he is someone who, as he's grown in the spirit, like he is not, he has not allowed me to feel sorry for myself. And he's encouraged me and to say, you know, just curse me and and and challenge me when I needed to be challenged and said, Hey Byron, like, like this is not, you know, you like you're you're you've been given everything, my guy. So why are you sitting here in this space, in this place right now? Let's love on you, let's let's listen to you, let's hold you, and let's also like encourage you to to not hold on to these things and remind you that, you know, of who you are and and what that means then for the space that you're that God has called you to serve in. So I went up there to Portland. I was I was blessed by all of it, seeing you, seeing my brother connecting with folks, kind of taking a break. I came back. I and and every time it seemed, and I think one of the things that was difficult for me is that every time it seemed like things were kind of getting to a place where things like, oh, things are copacetic-ish, like things seem to be working okay, kind of maybe something else would happen. And I feel like we would just take a step, like one step forward, three steps back, type of thing. And yeah, and then I got felt like I was like burned out, man. And I didn't feel like I was burned out. I was burned out. My family, my family needed rest. I needed rest. And I'll just throw this out there. We do not, those of us that are Sabbath believers and keepers, we don't do a whole lot, we don't do very well when we're involved in ministry of actually having rhythms of rest in our life and allowing the Sabbath to be the Sabbath. We were actually pretty bad at it.
SPEAKER_02:I I was talking to somebody this last week and we were talking about the Sabbath, and I was like, Well, how do you even keep the Sabbath? Like, do we keep it like the Israelites keep that kept it? And I was like, Well, I already messed up because I drove here, like I drove Sabbath morning two and a half hours to speak at the Sabbath school. I was like, I drove here this morning, and I was like, What about you, man? Like you resting today? And he's like, Oh man, this is my most stressful day of the week. Uh and so like we were just kind of discussing like how do we keep this? Like, what's the best way to do it? Yeah, and uh it ends up being pretty difficult if you're a pastor.
SPEAKER_00:Dude, it does, man. It does. And and that's something that uh that's a whole other conversation. But we we obviously there needs to be a reconsidering and a reckoning so that we're not burning out pastors and leaders and people that are in ministry. That that's not that's not the way to do it either. But um, so I talked to I talked to my team and I said, Hey guys, I need a break. Like I need an extended break. And they said, Yeah, absolutely. We're surprised you made it this long. I was like, oh thanks, guys. Cool. Thanks for speaking up. Appreciate you. No, but dude, I I love them, man, because they they they it wasn't even a second thought. I talked to the senior pastor and I said, Hey, I need to, I need I need to be away. And to his credit, man, he said, Yeah, take the time you need. So I was okay. So I went off and I was on um, yeah, I went off and uh I was gone for like two months. Um not physically gone, but just or like not like I went on a trip, but I was just not attending church because I know that the moment I'm at church, like I'm on go mode and I'm getting things done and doing stuff. And so I was like, no, I I can't do that. So I went off uh and I took some time to really pray and and uh reconnect and and have a season of rest for my not just myself but for my family. And um, and it was great. And I think you've already yeah, you've already heard this one, but but I was also wrestling with this concept of like, what does it mean to be burned out with some when you are when you are uh you know dead to sin and alive in Christ? Is that is that possible? Like is like what am I dude and and so what came to my mind is like, does this mean I'm failing? Does this mean I'm failing um somehow, whether it's because I don't have enough faith, because I'm not doing you know something right? What does this mean, man? So I was I was wrestling with that during my my time away.
SPEAKER_02:Don't you think Paul was burnt out? Paul asked God three times, take this thorn. You don't think it had like he was getting whooped, snake bit, shipwrecked, he's in prison, yeah, and he's like, I'd rather go be with God, but since I'm alive, it's good for y'all, and I love y'all, but I'd rather go be with God. Like the brother's life wasn't easy. And how about this? The people he loved, the people he ministered to, the people, his people, those are the ones who were beating him. Not the pagans. Mercy, like the people that he thought were gonna have his back, those people that he was like, oh, this is good news, they'll love it. Those are the ones that had to hurt even more.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely, man. And and that's one of the things that was most hurtful to me in this whole experience was these are people that I love dearly and care for dearly.
SPEAKER_02:Um so you ever read Romans uh what is it, 10 and 11? To see Paul talking about how he loves Israel so much that he would go to hell for them if they would just understand this. Like wow. Like his heart is that Israel receives Jesus.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and and and that was the that was the ultimate desire of my heart, man. I was so blessed by what God had done in my life that I was like, I I I would love this for all the people that I care about, right? Yeah, man, absolutely, and thank you for that, dude. I've I mean the uh the answer is yes, I've absolutely read Romans 10, 11, and I need to go back and and read it and be on the lookout for that stuff, man.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's it's actually wild. If you come from our background, you're like you could just insert the name, and you're like, whoa, this is crazy how so we don't have to belabor this point. This has been a couple years. Uh a few people that were there that weekend got like radically a revolution of God's love revelation, they ended up leaving. I mean, I've done a second episode with Arnold, he tears his tells his story. Yeah. Um during this whole time, it still feels like at that church there's still controversy, even two and a half years later. Yeah. And you're trying to figure this out how you're supposed to do it. How did God end up ministering to you?
SPEAKER_00:Great question. So during that time that I was aware, I went to, I visited a church. Um, and as I was visiting the church, I was listening to the sermon, I was wrestling with this question of burnout and what does it mean for me as someone who's walking in the spirit. And as I was listening to the sermon, there are certain, I don't know about you, I I actually, well, I think that we all have certain passages that are near and dear to our hearts, and God knows that, right? Um, because we're uniquely his children and you're you're uniquely his. And so as a result of that, he knows what passages speak to you and where he's spoken to you before. And in the sermon that I was listening to you, I heard God talking through some of the uh um Yeah. I heard God talking through some of the through through the speaker, the the the preacher, and and it was in it was touching on passages that had been um transformative for me. Like if you go back and listen to my first episode, one of the passages was was Matthew chapter 3, verse 16 and 17. And he was preaching out of that, and I was like, mercy, like this, this is this is connecting, this is hitting spots that were you know very unique and and uh very unique and intimately mine and God's alone, right in our relationship. And so I was like, God, this is so this is so great, this is so beautiful. But I was like, but then but then there was the the the the voice of doubt, and I was like, no, you know, this is not this is this is just a coincidence that you're coming to the sermon and and the preacher is preaching on this stuff. This is just a coincidence. But the more he preached, the more I was like, shoot, he keeps hitting on these verses. Like, I don't know, maybe it is for me. Maybe God is trying to like be like Byron, like I'm here, you know, like you you may be burned out, but uh it's not but like I I got you still, I got you still, you know. And then so by the end of the sermon, I was like actually having this conversation with God in my head, not out loud, that would have been awkward. Um but I was like, all right, God, the song, like you know, the preacher gets done, the they're gonna sing a song, and as I'm sitting there, I was like, all right, God, if this is really you, let me be specific then and and and just put you on the spot. Like, if this is really you, like I want you to show me and talk to me and tell me this is really you showing up and ministering to me right now. And because I'm I'm being blessed by everything he's saying, but I want to know, I need to know that this is actually you, you specifically talking to Byron Rivera, and that if and that if Byron Rivera wasn't here, the sermon would be different, and that if Byron Rivera wasn't here, this this experience would be different. And I said, if if this is true, God, then I want the praise team to get up here and I want them to sing Jesus Loves Me. Bro, that's a kid's song. This is not a kid's program. What are the odds? Out of all the songs that exist, right? I was like, what are the odds? But I was like, no, God, like, like I I I'm I'm I recognize that I'm I'm doing like a Gideon thing, but please humor me because I I I I just give me this. Dude, the praising gets up there. And some of these praisings, man, they're fancy. They play these things that kind of make a little, I at least for my untrained ears, I was like, wait, what song is it gonna be? And then all of a sudden, man, a familiar melody starts to come through the instruments. I'm like, holy cow. Jesus loves me. Dude. In that moment, I just I broke down, man. In that moment, I broke down. And I was just I cried and I sang my heart out to Jesus. And I'm like, you're here. You you're right, literally right here with me right now. And and me being burned out means absolutely nothing to me anymore because you're here and because I know you're here. It's not that you've ever left, but you've made yourself so present right now in this moment that me being burned out, me experiencing all this other stuff, it means nothing. Um because you're here. And I can I can happily have this moment with you. Because I send my heart out to Jesus, and it was wonderful and beautiful and restorative and healing. Um then um at the end of the time away, of the end of that time period away from my responsibility as the associate, we were able to hire somebody else full-time at the at the church, which was always the plan to hire somebody full-time at the church. We were able to do that. So I was no longer having to be the uh associate. Um I was no longer able to be the having to be the associate uh pastor there, which means I have more time on my hands, I can actually spend quality time with my family in the evenings and together. And it's not that I didn't have some of those moments before, but it was irregular. Um yeah. And you would hope and you would think, oh, that's a that's that sounds like the end, but dude, it wasn't. Because I after the after I was done and I was able to hand off the baton to somebody else as a person that was in charge with the with the young people of the church, I thought this was the end. I'm I'm no longer have a target on my back. I can rest easy now and we can be good. But bro, the devil doesn't rest, man. Didn't happen like that. It didn't happen like that. The difference though was that now I was like I I was no longer burned out. Like I wasn't facing that out of like feeling burned out. I was facing that with like like some courage. Yeah, exactly. Thank you. That's a really good way of saying it. I was facing it with courage, I was facing it with peace, but I was also noticing like, man, um, despite the fact that I don't have a style anymore, and despite the fact that I've been removed from all these other offices and all the responsibilities at church, um people it seems like people are still very intent on saying things about me and operating and doing things that are hurtful and stuff like that. I was like, wow. It's like it's like you it's like you're trying your best not to be a stumbling stone. So you go to the very corner of the room and you try to remove yourself completely, but they go to the corner of the room and they trip over you anyway.
SPEAKER_02:So at some point you realize like this is how it's gonna be. And if I keep on like if I keep thinking that differently, then that's on me. Like, that's my fault. Like J Ma like like nothing.
SPEAKER_00:How did you move forward? Like, actually, not even necessarily. Like, what what I thought, so I knew that God had released me from my pastoral duty at that church at this time, so I knew that. I did not, but what I was still seeking God on was what are you like what now, God? Where do you want me? Like, do we stay here? Because if this is where you're calling us to, it doesn't matter how we're being treated. I'm gonna say yes. Because my my my decision to stay here to go is not based on how I'm being treated. My decision to stay here to go is based on what you tell me I need to do. Um, so I I I was wrestling with that and seeking that out. And I'm not gonna get into anybody, I don't want to like get into other people's story, but there's stuff that kind of unfolded that escalated this to a like a boiling point at the church. And um, there was a meeting that was called at some point, and in that meeting, um building up to that meeting, I I was spending a lot of time in prayer and meditation and fasting and and reaching out to God and crying out to God and saying, like, all right, God, prepare my prepare my heart, prepare my disposition, my posture, my spirit, so that I may I may speak according to your will um and according to your love. Um and see that morning, God, God spoke to me through scripture. And he told me he told me three things. He told me, Byron, they're not going to you're you're not going to be heard and you're not going to be received. Um and what's interesting in that is that God doesn't, even though I'm not going to be heard and not going to be received, God doesn't tell me to not go anyway. Right? God the God is still telling you to go. God is still telling you to speak, even though you're not going to be heard, even though you're not going to be received, He's still telling you to go and to speak. Um but then He said, So shake off the dust off your feet and move on. So I went into that meeting already knowing what was going to happen, how it was going to go down. And I had I finally had the opportunity to, in front of a group of people, share more openly a little bit about some of the stuff that had gone on and continued to go on, despite the fact that a lot of the leadership did not know that it was still going on, as far as like my family being attacked and other people being attacked. Um but uh but that gave me peace, man. That gave me peace. And um that gave me a lot of peace and confidence. And then and because I knew that God was releasing me and releasing me from being at that church and calling me to go elsewhere. Um, and I and I think this is one of the the great things about this opportunity, actually, is to be able to say that and name that. That it wasn't it wasn't the fact that I was being mistreated or or or whatever that or my family was that that resulted in you know us leaving or partying. It was it was God, it was God telling us, hey, okay, let's let's move on now. Um so as a result of all this stuff that had gone on, there's been a lot, there'd been a lot of hurt that had gone on. And um we we have people that love us very much. Uh shout out to Arnold and Sharon and John John Lalagi, aka John Lamborghini. Um John Lambo, you know. Yeah. Shout out to those guys. We got together um to share a meal together on a Sunday on a beach. Uh, have you heard this yet?
SPEAKER_02:I think I was talking to Matthew on his way when he was driving up there. Dude, oh, I think I just called him up on a Sunday. I never call him up, but I just call him. He's like, you know where we're going? I'm like, where? He's like, we're gonna go kick it with everybody on the beach. I was like, let's go. I'm jealous, dude.
SPEAKER_00:So so we go and we eat and it's fun and it's great. But then something that God had put on my heart was that whenever he would take the nation of Israel and it hit a milestone, you celebrate that milestone. You celebrate, you celebrate God pulling you out of one place and taking you to the yet another place. And so we were getting together to love on each other, to frankly, the Arnold, Sharon, and John just loving on us and pouring into us and as well as the Tan family, and just a lot of love going around. Um and so we did that and we finished eating, and then one of the things I I challenged, I already texted everybody, it's like, hey guys, bring your bathing suits. And I was I'm not a beach person, man. I'm not a water person, not a beach person, but I said, bring your bathing suits. So we came and we got our bathing suits on, and uh we went after we finished eating, we went like to the to the edge of the water. And I said, All right, guys. And this was this was such a beautiful thing, man, because it wasn't it wasn't just the Rivera family, it was all of us there, and it wasn't just like Brunell and I, my wife and I, it was like the kids, man, because the kids are affected by all of this stuff. And I said, Hey guys, let's do this thing where we all go to the sand and we write down all the things we need to let God address and all the things we need to let God go. Let's let go and let God let's do that. And as we went down to the beach, man, and we were writing stuff on the sand, just over and over, just writing the things down. And as we were writing the things in the sand, man, somebody said, I don't remember who it was, but somebody said, like, actually, initially, guys, I kind of like, oh no, but before I'm done writing it, the waves are already washing it out. Let's go. Bro, before I'm done writing it, the waves are already washing it out. Because that's how God operates, man. Before you're even finished saying it, he's already been washing it out. Dude, so then we wrote the stuff, and then we all ran into the water, dude. It's like a symbolic baptism, man. We all ran into the water that was cold, but it was beautiful, came out. Leaving the stuff there, came out refreshed, came out unburdened, came out with peace. We got together, we huddled together and we prayed, man, and we testified to his goodness for getting us to this point and to the next stage. Where does that mean? What does that mean, dude? I don't know yet. Like, it's funny because I say that and everybody gives me side and they're like, you know where you're going, you know where. I was like, I know, I don't know. I don't know where that's gonna be or what that's gonna look like. What I do know though is that because God is so great and so good, I can honestly say that I have, and I I forgot to mention this, I've I had peace and joy throughout these last few months as or yeah, as this stuff has been unfolding and falling apart. I've had peace and I've had joy, man. Um, and that is not and that is not what happens in human experiences outside of God being present in your life when you're going through things like this and you're seeing things like this unfold.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. You know, I've uh had a few second interviews on here where you know the first story is about how God brought them from death to life, and then the second story is what happened afterwards when people got upset. And um I remember it was real hard for me, you know, when I lost my job. And I remember Jonathan asked me this question, he's like, but would you take this back, bro? And so I mean, same thing to you, like two and a half years ago, I don't think we could have seen what would have happened. Like, there's no way. No, and in many of its many, many many aspects of this have been very heartbreaking. Um but at the same time, like we can't what are we gonna go back? Like I guess we have to read it differently. I don't even know. Like, would you take it back?
SPEAKER_00:I I mourn and I grieve the losses of the friendships that I once had. That is that is absolutely true, and that that that doesn't go away, and I miss those friendships. Sure. Um also I would I I praise God, and I say that the life that I've seen people be able to live and enjoy, the the healing, the restoration, the reconciliation that I've seen, the way that God operates in all these other ways, and He has operated, all of that to me, I'm just like, praise God. Whatever hurt I've experienced, whatever you know, stuff that I've gone through, um I would happily do it again because I've seen people's lives transformed. Um relative to my my pain. Um now I I I did also as as I'm as I exited, I had a list of people that I was talking to, and I was saying, hey, and my wife too, like, hey, for whatever I've done knowingly or unknown, like unknowingly or knowingly, or whatever the case is that I've hurt you or grieved you, please, please forgive me. I I don't let me know. Like I don't wanna I don't want to pretend that just because I am um have sorted through these things that I somehow my decisions, my actions haven't hurt you in some way. And I want you to know that was never my intention and that I love you and that I'm I'm I'm sorry that you were wounded and hurt. Um and I also praise and and and then on the other end too, and I also praise God for the lives that were saved and transformed. That's amazing, that's beautiful, man. That's beautiful. I can't, I I can't like when people understand uh who they are in Christ, like that is that is one of the most marvelous things for me to witness.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely, man. Well, hey, thank you for sharing this. I know I I've seen you from afar, but the way you've lived your life, and I think God has given you this beautiful heart that you're for people and you're for reconciliation. And the story is not over yet. And we hold all these people dear and and we we pray for them that they receive this truth. And um, yeah, we'll keep going. Maybe we can't be in as close proximity as we used to be. Um, but we we we'll lift them up.
SPEAKER_00:So absolutely we'll lift them up, man. And and and one of the things that God has continued to tell me over and over and over is like Byron, you don't see the things I'm doing in their lives yet. You still don't see that yet. There's still more there.
SPEAKER_02:So I trust that. I love it, bro. Uh, we see your good works, man, and we glorify our Father in heaven. Thank you so much. Um, we're we'll keep going, man. We'll just keep going. More of the same. Telling people uh that they're free from and dead to sin, and and we'll live with the consequences.
SPEAKER_00:Praise God that we are free from and dead to sin, man.
SPEAKER_02:Let's go. Let's go. Thanks, man.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, dude.