#244 James Newberry How The Gospel Rewrote A Life Marked By Loss, Bullying, And Secret Struggle

We trace James’s journey from premature birth and the loss of his twin to years of school struggles, bullying, hidden shame, and a relentless search for identity that finally lands in secure sonship and freedom in Christ. The story holds nothing back—confession, dismissal from a camp, suicidal lows, and the moment the voice of truth replaced a lifetime of lies.

• early trauma, survival in NICU, family faith
• ADHD and dyslexia, endless school switches
• bullying, social anxiety, and isolation
• puberty, same-sex attraction, and shame
• church community as lifeline and codependency risks
• GED and move to Houston for a fresh start
• Antioch community care and culture shock
• cycles of porn, perfectionism, and Romans 7 living
• identity teaching, Dan Moeller, and Love Reality
• habits vs sin mastery and practical coaching tools
• redefining singleness and masculinity in Christ
• learning to hear God’s voice and drop old labels
• living from Romans 8 and secure sonship

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Chapters

• 0:00 Opening And James Introduced
• 3:24 Premature Birth, Twin Loss, And Early Faith
• 9:00 Learning Struggles And Family Support
• 15:20 School Hopping, Bullying, And Isolation
• 21:00 Pedestals, Puberty, And Same-Sex Attraction
• 28:10 Church Community And Codependency
• 35:40 GED, Houston Move, And First Hope
• 42:00 Walkabout Camp And Devastating Dismissal
• 50:10 Hitting Bottom, Antioch Church, And Care
• 56:50 FedEx Nights, Cycles, And Romans 7
• 1:04:10 Discipleship, Support Groups, And Searching
• 1:11:30 Dan Moeller, Identity, And A Shift
• 1:19:00 Setbacks, Mission Trips, And Legalism
• 1:26:00 Discovering Love Reality And New Language
• 1:33:20 Coaching, Trustfall, And Hearing God
• 1:40:00 Freedom, Singleness, And New Identity
• 1:46:30 Final Encouragement And Victory Lens

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:00

The world doesn't think that the gospel can change your life, but we know that it can. And that's why we want you to hear these stories: stories of transformation, stories of freedom, people getting free from sin and healed from sin because of Jesus. This is death to life.

SPEAKER_00: 0:24

I remember I texted Eric because he was the only one I felt comfortable to open up to. And it was like the most word-vomiting text I think I've ever sent. Because it was just like all this stuff just like coming out finally. And I remember that that time I was just like crying all the time because it was just like, I don't know what to do. I'm scared. I'm anxious. This is happening. I don't know what to do. I feel like I'm alone in this. I didn't my parents didn't know any of this. I just didn't feel comfortable to open up to them with this stuff. And I mean, I remember I was just like at the start pleading to God, like, take this away, take this away. I don't want this, I don't want this, I don't want this. It's like this can't be my life. Please just I'm begging you, take this away. I remember I was cat sitting for some neighbors' catty corner. And so I'd go over there. I was just like, I'm gonna go take care of the cats. And I would just go there and just cry for hours.

SPEAKER_01: 1:19

Yo, welcome to the Death to Life podcast. My name is Richard Young, and today's guest is none other than James Newberry. And James has been in our community for not a long time, but it feels like a long time because he just he's at everything, and he's such a valued member of our community. He speaks up when he told me it would have only been a year, it blew my mind. But this is his story of how the gospel has changed his life. And uh, it's not for kids, there's adult themes, um, and there's some there's some death in this mug, but there's also life, and just to see him operating in truth in the spirit is so beautiful, and you're gonna be encouraged by this uh this story. Um and so uh buckle up and strap in. Love y'all, appreciate y'all. Here is James, James. What's going on, man? What's up, brother? Uh the other day we were talking, and I was like, man, I've known this guy for so long, and you told me it's been like a year?

SPEAKER_00: 2:40

Yeah, a year.

SPEAKER_01: 2:42

And that blew me away. Does this feel like it's been a year since you've been rocking with this stuff? It feels longer. It does, doesn't it? It does, yeah. Why do you think that is? It's because of all the time on the on on the Bible studies? I don't know what it is. I don't think there maybe just the transformation and just the goodness of it. That's probably what it is. So uh um I have you in my phone and as and I don't know why I have you as James Houston because you're from Houston. Uh I think that's like when I first got your number, I put it in there. Yeah. Is that where you're from? Where does the story start, man? Or where you tell where you where do you feel like you want to start the story?

SPEAKER_00: 3:27

It'll start when I was born, Richard. Um I was born, I grew up in Dallas, Plano specifically. Okay. I was born in Dallas, so my birth actually has a lot to do with my story. Um, I have notes to keep me on track so I don't get on multiple tangents. Okay. But I was born, me and my twin brother John, we were born at 26 weeks. Three and a half months earlier, we were due August 7th, born on May 22nd. I was two pounds and 12 ounces. My dad's wittering could fit on my wrist. It was so small. I was so small. Wow. Yeah. And when you're born that premature, there's just like a multitude of potential problems and just uncertainty because it's like, is the baby gonna survive? Like, how is this gonna work? Like, those extra three months are pretty critical to um the health of a child and to like development. And so there's just like you're already behind just from birth. Um, and I did want to read this. This is um so my brother John developed a disease called neck. Basically, it's a bowel disease that eats your intestines from the inside out. He developed that not long after we were born, and he passed away on June 28th. Because of the how premature he was.

SPEAKER_01: 4:44

Wow. Yeah. What year where what year were you born? 1998. 98. I'm also a twin who was born premature, but I don't you're man, that's uh that's crazy. I'm so sorry to hear about your had you told me about that. I'm sorry to hear about your twin brother. I know you don't remember anything about it, but it's still that's still sad.

SPEAKER_00: 5:07

No, yeah. I mean, it's um it's always been like sad, but at the same time, it's like I didn't know him, but it's also like a a joy because it's like, man, in eternity, I have a twin brother. I get to start to get to know forever, which is a cool thing to think about. Um I do want to read this. This is my dad wrote this for my brother's funeral. I wanted to kind of share his part of this. Um, my dad wrote this. I think it's important to tell John's story. Many of you are intimately aware of the details of his struggle, while some of you only have a vague idea of what he went through and hopefully why he's left us. So let me briefly tell you the story of his life here. Both boys were born at 26 weeks, which is definitely premature, but they're both past a very important point of 25 weeks. So we are relieved that they have gotten as far as they did, because there's a difference of night and day between birth at 25 weeks and 27. When the boys were born, the doctor told Susan not to be alarmed if she didn't hear anything when they came out. He told her they'd be immediately put on a respirator, but they both came out crying and didn't have to put on a respirator until they're in the ICU ward. Sue and I went in at least one one of us every day to be with them, talk to them, what have you. It was difficult at first because they were hooked up to so many things we couldn't pick them up. The most we could do was touch a hand or foot or rub their head. But doctors told us they could hear, they could see a little bit, but they could definitely hear. So we talked to them a lot, and Sue was always singing Jesus loves me to Marilyn when she put her to bed, so the boys heard that song numerous times before they came, so she continued to sing that to them every day. Finally we graduated to the point where we could hold the boys, which was terrific and amazing to see. Hather would relax when we picked them up. James was always a little more rambunctious than John. John would usually flip it a little bit and just go to sleep and rest. And then the day came when Susan got to hold both boys together, and the most amazing thing happened. James squirmed and scorned until he was right next to his brother. It was like they had missed each other and they just need to reconnect as brothers. Looking back on John's struggle, I think James was talking to him as in Isaiah 41 6, and he said to his brother, be of good courage. Two days later, John became ill. This was a big surprise to the doctors and nurses because of what the contract had normally occurs with one to two week old premies. Being that John at this point was that five weeks, um, it came as a big surprise. Early on after this birth, Susan talked to Dr. Trein with others what other things must be worried about, and Dr. Train told us that the worst thing that could happen was that you get neck. It was which is the infection of the bowels. Dr. Trein said it's very serious, and unfortunately that's what John got. On Thursday morning, Dr. Trein got off duty, and before she left, she told Susan how excited she was that the boys were doing well, and they had already proven her wrong in multiple cases. She was just elated. It's at this point that time gets a little fuzzy for me, but the best I can recall, by Thursday night John was very ill. It was determined Friday that he was going to have to have surgery to remove portions of his bowels, that the doctors feared had died from infection. The surgeon, doctor Tummert, talked to us after the surgery and said that he was very pleased with how it went. He said the prognosis was good. John had a pretty rough night Friday night, and by Saturday morning he had backslid, but by noon it seemed that he was recovering and were strong. So Sue and I sat by his bed almost continuously talking to him, and we were amazed with all the going ons in the ward, and different people talking and whatever. Anytime we talked, he'd open his eyes and look at us. So we knew that he was there. On Sunday morning it appeared that John was getting worse. Dr. Trein was very straightforward in telling us how sick he was. By Sunday afternoon he was gravely ill. Susie and I had been with him all day. The surgeon, Dr. Dammert, came in and conferred with Dr. Trein and told Susan and I that John was not doing well. He feared that there was more dead bow and he was going to have to go in and do another surgery, and that his chances of surviving were not good. So Sue and I went back out to be with John. They planned surgery by for 4 PM and somewhere around 3 30. Susie was by John and once again singing Jesus loves me to him. And all this time he was looking at her. She told him that it was okay if he wanted to go. He was in a great deal of pain, and she told him that it was it it would have to be a decision between him and God. It was at that moment that his alarms began going off, and Dr. Treen had to re-intebate and recover him. Susan said to Dr. Treen, I think he's just telling us he's ready to go.

unknown: 9:28

Dr.

SPEAKER_00: 9:28

Treen told Susan that she couldn't give up on him yet, because when she looked at John on the table and looked at his charts, she saw two different children. His vital signs were totally incongruent with his conviction.

unknown: 9:39

Dr.

SPEAKER_00: 9:40

Treen was baffled by all of this. It made no sense to her whatsoever. She told us that we need to go and that we need to make sure that there wasn't something else perhaps going on that they could fix. So we had to give him the chance. But I'm reminded of Philippians first chapter, verse 21 through 26. For to me to live is Christ and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this mean will mean fruitful labor for me. Having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better. Yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake. Susan and I just praise God that he chose to be with Christ because all his suffering is ended. I'm trying to make sense and have something that we can hold on to. I don't mean Susan and me, I mean for everyone in this room. I think Philippians 1 6 does the best. For I am confident of this very thing that he who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it. My overwhelming thoughts and feeling on this subject is that life is so fragile, so unpredictable, that we must make every effort to build bridges, tear down walls to make things right with people in our lives, that perhaps things aren't right with. The words that we so often repeat, forgive us of our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us, have taken on a much deeper significance than ever before. So it's my fragrance prayer for everyone here on this here that if there are walls to be torn down, fences to be mended in your life, make the effort. It's okay to be angry with people. It's okay to be angry with our God, but we must not harbor bitterness or resentment. We must make the effort to forgive and accept people for who they are. We are all imperfect, we will all make mistakes, but as we are told in Matthew 5 8, blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God. So please, please, at this point reflect on what I'm saying today. John's life and death is a victory for all of us, as well as with them. Let us make his victory worthy of God's praise and make things right in your life.

SPEAKER_01: 11:29

Mercy, dude.

SPEAKER_00: 11:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 11:35

Wow. How long ago did you read that?

SPEAKER_00: 11:38

So I actually hadn't read that. My mom sent it to me. I was preparing notes for this, and I didn't read it before. And it was just super impactful. I was like, one, I never really saw that side of my dad very much. So it was cool to see that, but it was just it was powerful. It was very powerful to read.

SPEAKER_01: 11:54

Wow. That's crazy, man. Yeah. And so you had explained to me before that so how you you were fine that whole time. You just kept growing and growing?

SPEAKER_00: 12:08

Yeah, I mean, there was there was still a lot of issues. I mean, the day after my brother's funeral, the doctors called that night and said there was blood in my stool, which is the first sign of next. So my parents were like, please not again. But the doctors were saying that um when a twin dies, the other twin usually backslides because the twin is grieving. So that's kind of what was happening. And a week later I was back to normal pretty much. But it was still very much an uphill battle. I mean, the doctors were telling my parents that I probably would have asthma because my lungs were really bad. Um, is that it'd be delayed and everything. I would either have to be taught stuff or have to teach myself how to do things, which I had to do with reading. We'll talk about that later. Um, but because my lungs were bad, they said I probably wouldn't be able to like do a lot of sports or any type of physical activity. I probably have to be on breathing treatments my whole life. I probably would have to do a speech therapist. I probably wouldn't be able to talk. I mean, there's just like everything against him, because he's just delayed in everything. So like back against the wall from birth. And the reason that my voice is soft like this is because I was intubated so long in the ICU, which means they put it too in my throat to help my lungs breathe, and it damaged my vocal cords. So that's why my voice is soft like this.

SPEAKER_01: 13:21

Have you had that voice like when you were in the third grade? You were just like, hey, what's that question? Like, like always had a rap, has it been raspy or deep, or has it always been like that?

SPEAKER_00: 13:31

Kind of both. I mean, obviously, as a kid, it's a little more high-pitched, but I was always like, man, this kid's got a deep voice. He's like five and he's got this like smoker voice. Like, what's going on?

SPEAKER_01: 13:42

He's a packaday smoker in the second grade. Honestly.

SPEAKER_00: 13:48

But um, yeah, so it was just like uphill battle from from the get-go. Um, and another thing that was cool that my mom was telling me when they were finally able to bring me home, which was a good while, I was in the ICU. I don't know how long it was. It was a while though, that I was in there just because they had to make sure I was okay to come home. But when I was finally home and a baby just at home, uh the only thing that would calm me down when I was crying was she would sing Jesus Loves Me. She tried other songs, anything, the only thing that would calm me down was Jesus Loves Me. And so that kind of became me and my mom's song. Like when I was little, me and her would sing it together. Um and one of the nurses told my mom, just because from when I was young, when I was really young, I always just had a huge like curiosity about Jesus and just the things to the Christian life that's just like not normal for a kid that age. And the nurse said, he'll be a great disciple of Jesus one day. She just like had this feeling. And so I just I kept hearing this stuff when I was a kid. Now it's just like there's just always this like knowing. Like I've never had a moment of like accepting Christ. It's like I always just like knew and believed from as long as I can remember. And there's just like this knowing that's like I'm here for some type of reason because I probably shouldn't be here based on how I was born. And the fact that my brother didn't make it.

SPEAKER_01: 15:12

Um, that's a powerful intro. Um was all that stuff that the doctor said, like, besides your voice, like that all that was a hardship for you growing up?

SPEAKER_00: 15:25

No, not really. I mean, the words that came out was ADSC and dyslexia, um, and then just like lungs that aren't strong. So it's like doctors were saying all this stuff, and then um God's grace just kind of proved them wrong. I that's what I think, at least, is you know, there was multiple reasons why it should have been worse, but it wasn't. Um it was like doctors were saying scientifically it should be this, but he's just kind of proving everything wrong. And I just think that was God's grace in my life from an early time. Um so I'll just kind of go into early life. Early life was normal, grew up in a preaching conservative home. I'm gonna break a death like tradition. I did not grow up in an Adventist home. Oh, there you're not the first one. I'm not the okay. Well, the first killer I was just like, guess, dang, is everyone Adventist here? Um, we went to Anglican church.

unknown: 16:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 16:19

Anglican.

SPEAKER_00: 16:20

Anglican, liturgical. Um you have three older siblings. I was the baby, older sister, two older brothers. So from my dad's previous marriage, I had two half-brothers. And that was always the cool thing growing up because his, my brother's mom remarried, and then they had two kids from her husband that were also older, so it was like I had this big family growing up. It was always super cool. Because we would go to their house, they would come to ours, and it was just really cool. Then Grandpa's like, I had this big family and lots of siblings. It was it was awesome. Um, so that was always a cool thing. Um went to Faith Lutheran, that was my first school, uh, up until second grade when I was diagnosed with HD and dyslexia.

SPEAKER_01: 17:03

And the teacher I had at the time, she would ADHD and dyslexia?

SPEAKER_00: 17:06

Yes, both.

SPEAKER_01: 17:08

So you can't read, but you can't pay attention to even start reading. So Yeah, it was great.

SPEAKER_00: 17:15

It was great. Um and from then on, school just became very, very difficult. It was it was not a fun, fun party from there on out. But the teacher had uh Miss Warnickey, she was she was a saint. She still is a saint, but um she was the one who said, I think you should get him tested because I'm convinced he has aging dyslexia. So my parents got me tested, and I passed. Passed with flying colors. Um didn't pass a lot of tests, but that one I passed. Do you do you still have dyslexia? No, so later on in the story, they uh last time I got tested, they said I overcame it. I mean, I I eat books like crazy now. I have like five books I'm in a miller reading.

SPEAKER_01: 17:55

So, like when you see James Newman or Love Reality, it just looks like love reality, but back then it didn't look like that.

SPEAKER_00: 18:03

Yeah, I can read to save my life, but now it's just I don't notice it at all. Let's go. Yeah, I give a lot of credit to Kimberly Warnicy, she's the one who taught me how to read and write because from Faith Lutheran we decided to do homeschool slash tutoring. Um just because it was hard for me to keep up at Faith Lutheran. So we're like, well, let's just do that. Um so we did that for a year and it was working, but then we kind of wanted to try a school again. And so um from there, my through my tutor, we found a place called Southwest Academy, which is this it was a really tiny, tiny, tiny private school. But it specialized in kids with learning disabilities, so it was kind of a good fit for me at the time. And backtracking a little bit, my parents were are just incredible. They were so supportive, so encouraging through all this. I mean, they doctors said like he's probably won't be until he's probably more like 30 that he's gonna be able to be like fully independent and on his own just because of the delays. And it's not a guarantee, it's just kind of that's kind of a thing with creamy sometimes. So they knew just from the get-go that, like, okay, we're gonna probably have to do some extra support and just be there for him as much as we can and put more effort just to help him succeed. And they they did. I mean, they literally sacrificed, uh would have sacrificed the share off their back if they had to. I mean, they sacrificed so much just to get me where I am now. So huge shout out to my parents. But my mom uh showed me one thing that this sticks to me for a while is uh we listened to Christian music all the time. I mean, church and Christianity was just huge in my life growing up. But one of the band's wizard was Casting Crowns, and the lead singer Mark all he has, I think, ADD in dyslexia, but she showed me his testimony when I was really young and just as an encouragement, and it was super powerful because he was just like same thing. I mean, he was like, I always just felt like I wasn't enough, a failure, and I was just like ashamed because of this, and God just kind of was like showing him like, Hey, I don't need you, I want you. And like it did, like this isn't holding me back. Like, I can still work through you to do amazing things. And that was super helpful for me. And then through that, he wrote the song Voice of Truth, and that song became like one of my angers. And the the chorus of that is he was talking about like the waves and the giants, how they call out his name, and just like it goes, the giants are calling out my name and they laugh at me, reminding me of all the times I've tried before and failed. The giants keep telling me time and time again, boy, you'll never win. You'll never win. But the voice of truth tells me a different story. The voice of truth says, Don't be afraid. The voice of truth says, This is for my glory. Out of all the voices calling out to me, I will choose to listen and believe the voice of truth. So that was always a powerful thing for me to remember that through all this stuff, all these voices that will come in and just start tormenting me is that the voice of truth will always tell me a different story, that this is for my glory, and this is not gonna hold me back or hold you back because I I have you. And so that was always a powerful anchor for me.

SPEAKER_01: 21:01

That's awesome. Praise the Lord.

SPEAKER_00: 21:04

Yeah. Um, so yeah, Southwest Academy, I was there from third to fourth grade, and the school switched to a different type of uh teaching style, and so it again fell behind and it was just difficult, so switched again. And backtracking a little bit, my church was just like a second home for me growing up. It was just so cool. My mom taught there. She was a teacher for second grade, she loved communion and everything about it. She taught like holy communion and stuff with like Exodus. She was incredible at teaching it. It was like such a gift for her, and she loved it. She was we were all very involved in church growing up, and my mom had this group of friends that they call themselves the Sweet Confetti Sisters. It was just her and all her mom friends and our families all grew up together. It was just an awesome community to grow up with. It's just good soil to grow up in and flourishing. Good friends, it was incredible. But they all went to LCA Legacy Christian Academy in Frisco, and I was still here, and I kind of wanted to be with them because I was like, man, these are my friends. I want to be where they are and experience school and band and football games and all this stuff. I didn't get to do that yet. And so I was like, man, I want to be a part of this thing. Um and so Tessa did go into LCA and when there's fourth grade, and there was a college prep prep school, so it was difficult. Um and again was just behind the whole time. Just not really doing too well. It's just very difficult. And by then it was just like um the lies started to come in of just like you're not enough and you're not good enough. Um and it wasn't like that people were like saying that. I think just the enemy will do anything he can to get lies in you from the get-go. And that's just to put those seeds in, then he'll just water it as much as he can. Um and so yeah, that just it just got difficult from then on out. Wasn't really great at making friends, just kind of started to get a little socially awkward just because with the constant school change, there wasn't a lot of time to like have good social interactions, so like socially kind of delayed, so just awkward, not great social awareness, so just wasn't great at connecting and making good friends aside from the ones I had at church. Um and so from Legacy, we decided to go back to like a half school, half-tutoring thing. We went to this, it was like a weird hole in the wall school. It was like a half-day school thing, and then went to this place called Learning RX, which is to help ADHD kids focus, like learn to help me focus with like distractions. It was really cool and it was super, super helpful. It was really, really powerful and super helpful for me. And so the the goal at that point was to do that for a year and then try and go back to legacy to finish just because I would have gotten more help to be able to focus better to succeed more. So that was the goal. And so then when I tried to go back to Legacy, the my teacher from the tutoring went to them and was like, hey, succeeding, like, can we bring him back? And they just still thought I wouldn't be able to do else, but they kind of rejected, like, no, let's we're not gonna accept him back. My parents told me that, and I took it as I'm being rejected because I'm not good enough, basically. And so then that just influrates the lie of like you're not good enough, and then again, the you'll never win. You'll just you won't ever win. Those lies, you're not good enough, you're not enough, you'll never win. Those were the root lies that just would torment me for ages. Um yeah, and so that was that was hard. So fifth grade went to Razor Elementary, it was the school in my neighborhood, it was a public school, so it was first time in public school, not in private school, which was that was hard in jail just because I'm I like going to like Bible class. I love talking about God in school. I mean, that was my favorite class in school. It's not how that was difficult. Like I couldn't really talk about Christianity God, not that it was like you know, do not talk about it ever, but just you can't really exactly, it's just different. Um yeah, that was hard and hard again, hard to make friends, socially not great, not great at connecting, was buoyed a little bit just because I was different, not you know, socially great. Um Yeah, and so it was it was hard, and it was especially hard with kids of the same sex just because I was I mean, I had a few friends here and there, but it was just hard to connect because I was struggling with my own identity and sense of self, and I wasn't really fitting with like you know the sport kids or you know, this, that, the other. I was very visual, art, artistic.

SPEAKER_01: 25:29

Um did you put like did you put some of the kids that you wanted to be friends with like on a pedestal, like oh this guy or something like that?

SPEAKER_00: 25:39

Yeah, that that started then for sure. It was just like sort of idolizing them and kind of wanting to be them a little bit because I thought I'm not good enough, so I want to be like them, like who's popular and who has attention. Right because I'm craving that internally and I don't have it, quote unquote. Right. Um so yeah, that was that was difficult, just like as a young kid trying to understand all that and make sense of it. Because like you don't really have the tools that young to really get it. Um that was hard. And that's I think that's when discouragement really started to sit in. That's when the root of self-hatred started to come in too of just like you're just not good enough at your core. At your core, you're just not enough. That was kind of just the identity that would What grade is this?

SPEAKER_01: 26:22

This is like sixth grade? Fifth. Mercy. It's getting it as the the late great Yogi Berra said, it's it's getting late early. You know what I'm saying? Like that's uh dark. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 26:37

Um it's okay that makes the the life part that much more glorious. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so then here we go to the sixth grade. Oh, sixth grade, goodness gracious, puberty moment. Sixth grade's tough, bro. Bro, it's good night, bro. It's it's a it's a it's a fun time, man. It's a fun time. Um so then we moved back to private school Principies, um, was the name of this one. At this point, I was just getting tired of school, just constant switching, not doing it, still just working hard just to still get F's. It's just like, this is dumb. I'm not even learning anything. I'm just doing everything I can to make a passing grade to pass, but I'm not even like obtaining this information to actually learn. I'm just like surviving just to pass, you know? It's like this isn't helping. And I'd already repeated third grade. So I was already like, it was this weird thing where it's like I'm older than these other kids, but I also feel younger because I'm like behind in development. And so it was like this weird dynamic. Like just feeling very weird and insecure in terms of like, I'm older, but I feel younger and we like it's it was very weird. Um and Prince Peace was the hardest. It was just like a lot of bullying, a lot of not fitting in, very hard to make friends, and also just very awkward myself, just because of again, I didn't have time to like really develop social skills with especially with other boys my age. And so it was just it was awkward. And I made a few little friends here and there, but it was just again idolizing certain guys just because it's like I want to be them and not me. And yeah, it was it was hard. And the workload again was just rough, just because it was again college prep school. So it was just constant school, like from night to day, homework constantly, very little life outside of that. Again, church was my my life outside of that. That was the only thing that was normal and like life-giving. Was like youth group, church. That was like the one thing that I was that I had outside of it. Um and you know, at home, things were getting kind of tough. You know, my parents were chilling financially, my dad was working a lot, he threw he uh was flying private planes for a very wealthy family. And they just didn't really take in consideration him and his life. They were just like scheduled trips without telling him, so he was just like gone all the time. And you know, to his sake, he was just trying to make ends meet, sacrifice for his family. I mean, he's the hardest working man. I mean, he's just would do anything he can for his family, just working so unbelievably hard. Um, but you know, unfortunately, is he wasn't around a lot, so I was just there with my mom, my sister. And so there just wasn't a lot of like male influence to kind of help me grow and process and mature. And my older brothers weren't around a lot either. They were in college and kind of dealing with their own stuff, and there was just like some weird conflict going on with all that, and it was just like weird and uncomfortable, and I was just like, this was not very fun. Um, and then just stressed like financially at home, and so there was like this tension and stress going on. And my parents were, you know, doing the best they could. And I mean again, just like my mom was just amazing, just doing everything she could, like to make holidays and stuff special, you know, working herself to death to the bone to just do what she can. Can to make it special and impactful with what she could. And there's just like I mean, just so selfless. My parents just to do what they can for their kids and try and make it the best they could with what they had. Um so yeah, it's just a lot of stuff going on, um, and just a lot of stress. A lot of stress. Um, any questions so far? Who who was God? Yeah. Um again, I always believed in him, but I think at this point it was just like I know, I know who he is, I know the truth of the gospel, but there wasn't so much personal relationship because growing up it was like this idea, like in the Anglican church, a lot of the prayers, it's a lot like the Our Father prayer and a lot of like liturgical stuff. So it's like I was never taught really what prayer was in terms of just like talking to God. Like I thought it was very structured. So it's kind of this mentality early on that like God was like very structured, and it's like I have to do these certain things and pray these certain ways to commune with him. Um and Milan was helpful in that because she had a very personal relationship with him, and so she was kind of helping me with that um to kind of understand those things. And you know, from very early on, she was a huge foundation of my faith, just like early on when I was very curious about like the gospel and stuff. Like when I was five, when the Passion of the Christ was coming out, like the one thing I wanted for each of the year was this picture book of The Passion of the Christ, just because I was so curious about it and was like, this is how it really happened.

SPEAKER_01: 31:32

I want to know these things, not I did not want to watch that movie, bro. I wanted to this was my freshman year of college, yeah. And I was afraid of it. Yeah. And I think we own it. I think I've probably seen it three times. It's not fun. No, it's not it's intense, bro. It's so intense.

SPEAKER_00: 31:50

But I just had this curiosity and just wanting to know and understand all this stuff, and so my mom was so good to hear she's like talking to me about this stuff, and um we had this thing, we had like this little Bethlehem city that we would set up with like figurines and shit, like teach me Bible stories with it. So all that was like super, super cool. But it was kind of um again, it was just like this knowing of God and his stories and who he is, but not a lot of like personal knowing at that point, just because I didn't really understand how it all works, I guess. And there's also just like frustration with him because it's just like why is this happening? Like, what is going on here? It was like, I mean, I know like you're here and you got me, like I know I'm saved. And you know, the gospel to my understanding at that point was like it was the prayer to go to heaven. It was like, Jesus died for my sins, and one day I've been in heaven, and that was that was the gospel. So like that was just kind of the extent of it at that point. So that was just kind of my understanding is like just gonna have to grind and survive of this life, and then one day we'll be in heaven, and then everything will be fine then. But no understanding of like heaven now. Like that was like the foreign. Right. So yeah, so that was kind of my understanding at that point in time. Um yeah, and so sixth grade is when things started to get really rough because it again, not connecting with guys my age and trying to, wanting to, but not really understanding how, and kind of rejected by them a little bit, which was hard, and then puberty started, which is just a grand old time. And that would just make me feel more occupied because I was already kind of insecure in my own body, and then I started to get like body hair and all that stuff, and I would take stuff very literally and very seriously. Like my mom is very sarcastic sometimes, and she would have to like she would make a sarcastic joke, and we had this thing where she would have to like wink at me that we'd know, like, hey, I'm just joking. Because I would take things so literally and so internally and personally. So like sometimes my sister would comment like, or my mom or whatever, like, you're so hairy or like so hairy, and they weren't like saying it in negative, it was just like, hey, I have a lot of body here, but I was like, I took it in negative sense, like, oh like I'm not good, basically. I don't know why. That's how I took it, but that's just kind of how you're a sensitive guy. I'm a sensitive guy, I am, yeah, very sensitive guy. And when you're sensitive at a young age, you don't really know how to handle emotions and feelings like that.

SPEAKER_01: 34:15

You you said at a young age. A lot of people who are sensitive at an old age don't know how to handle it. Yeah, I'm still learning how to handle it. Yeah, man, for sure.

SPEAKER_00: 34:25

Yeah. Um, yeah, and so it was it was rough. And yeah, at that point, when I'm normally supposed to try and start to find girls attractive, that wasn't what was happening. I was starting to find my guy classmates attractive. And at the time I didn't understand what that was, but I was just like, this isn't normal, I don't think. I don't know what this is or what's going on.

SPEAKER_01: 34:51

Yeah, we talked about this before too, right? The the idea of putting them on a pedestal. Yeah. It's like this fear, fear of them, but then it turns into this kind of like worship of them. Yeah. And at that age, um, yeah, that that attraction can work like that.

SPEAKER_00: 35:08

Oh, yeah, and then all of us just gets twisted and weirded out in your brain because you you don't know at that age what's going on, and you're trying to just make sense of it with best you can.

SPEAKER_01: 35:16

For sure.

SPEAKER_00: 35:17

And so yeah, starting at that point, I didn't have a good understanding of like you know, sexuality and all that stuff. Like it was just didn't have a good grasp on any of it. You know, it's like I had to talk with my mom, and it was once and it was weird, and that was it, and there was just like nothing else. Weird talk. Weird talk, weird.

SPEAKER_01: 35:37

So it's just like I don't really I talk to my kids about this stuff a lot. Yeah. Cause yeah, I don't want it to. I maybe it'll be weird. But I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna err on that rather than not talking about it because I don't want them to find out through, you know, whatever.

SPEAKER_00: 35:59

Yeah, exactly. Um so yeah, I left Prince of Peace because I was just like, again, not doing well, and just like hearing we were again again, every every single move, it was like it was always this mentality of just like my mom, I would hear her talking through like, well, we have to move James again and such and such. And it wasn't like she was saying a negative tone, but I I would internalize it as what's wrong with James now, what's going on with James? He's messing up again, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so it's just again, you're not good enough, you'll never win, you're messing up again. Basically, it's your fault. At your core, you're just not good. Um so then went to Grace Academy, which was a new private school, and so it's a hopeful thing because the penmaster that started LCA, we were close with her, she started this school, and so connected with her, and it was cool and great. Um, there were 200 total kids in the school, so it was small. Um and it was it was good. It was my first year there was a telling mom, I think I'm finally found my my home school. I think I'm like home. Like, I think I can stay here for the rest and be okay. Which is huge for me because there's like finally no more moving. Thank you, Lord. Um so I and I had really good friends there. Finally got good friendships at school, which is a huge, huge thing. Because that had never happened before. So that was just a huge blessing. Um just was really connecting with classmates, guys and girls. So that was awesome. Um stayed there three years and then freshman year, it got very, very difficult because the workload increased. They were still trying to do like college prep, but also do help kids learn displays, but it's just like it wasn't mixing well. And there was a lot of like background stuff going on with like the staff that was kind of, I think, whacked out with the highlight scene, so they were trying to keep it afloat. It was kind of a mess. Um literally, freshman year, I was doing school from sunup to sundown. It was constant, and I was still failing. No, like that's how much the workload was. I was just trying desperately to keep up and still was getting F's. And I mean it was it was awful because they would do like run web. So every time I get picked up, my mom or dad are like, I got a nose from runweb, you got a failing grade or something's just like, I know I did, I'm trying my best. And they're trying to help, I mean, they're doing the best they can. They're trying to help and support and get me through, but it was just like I was just done at this point. I was just like, this is dumb. I'm tired of this. I'm I'm trying to apply, but I don't want to apply because this is I'm not learning anything. All the all the while internally struggling with like this identity crisis and not understanding who I am or like any of that stuff. Uh dad's still gone a lot with flights, and this is he's finally starting to stop and slow down, but he's still gone a lot, but he's not around lots. So again, not a lot of mailing folks to help me kind of understand and develop stuff. Um, still stress at home, just financial stuff. And again, it wasn't like horrible, but it's just not a wonderful thing either to deal with. Right. Right. Um and so then went back to testing again, and this one they said it overcame dyslexia. So it's like, oh yay, yeah, good thing. Um so that was a that was a good plus to you know, like, okay, one of the things is down, just AHD is left, cool. Yeah. And again, like this whole time, it's like we're doing med checks, appointments, all that stuff throughout this entire time. From like from the time I was diagnosed to now, it's like we're doing med checks, testing, all the stuff outside of school. Which again was hard because I also had like friends in the neighborhood for a while, but then I would get pulled away, like, we have to go to tutoring, we have to go do this, this, that, and the other. And it was just like, I want to be a kid, man. Like, I want to play with my friends and hang out and can't do any of that. Which was hard. It was hard as a kid. For sure. Yeah. Um, and this is when first year is when depression hit like a storm. Self-hatred just hit like a storm. Again.

SPEAKER_01: 40:00

Did your parents know like you were going through this, or you keep it to yourself most of the time?

SPEAKER_00: 40:04

No, they they they knew. I mean, they they knew. I mean, a lot of it I internalized, like, they didn't know about the I was struggling with same-sex attraction or any of that stuff at this point. Because that part of that was I was just scared to tell anyone because I mean that's just a scary thing to say in general. But also growing up in a Christian conservative home where and this wasn't like the church or my parents were doing it, but it was just like in the South, it's like gay and same-sex attraction, like that's like the sin, it's like no. And so I was just like, oh, okay. I'm like the worst thing, cool.

SPEAKER_02: 40:35

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 40:36

It was like, it wasn't like I wanted to have it. I was just like, and again, at that time I didn't even like know it or come to terms with it. I was still like shoving it down. I was still like kind of in denial almost. So I was just like shoving this thing down, like, nope, nope, that's not no, no, no, not doing it. Um so yeah, like lies, you're not enough. And this one, same sex attraction stuff just became kind of apparent, like, okay, I think this is a thing. This is heavy, and I don't know what to do.

SPEAKER_02: 41:08

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 41:09

Um and so then I had to leave Grace, which was hard because again, it was like my one home school, and all my friends I had to leave, which was just like the audience, just like this, this is rough. Um, so then we went to homeschool with a tutor, just like half day. And the cool thing with that though is we were able to kind of go back to like basic stuff, because I didn't get a good grasp on like basic, like multiplication or uh fractions, like all that sort of stuff I didn't get. So with homeschool, we can kind of do our own curriculum. So we did that to kind of get a good grasp on basics. And it was helpful for all, but it was also like I was also doing like coloring sheets and stuff, and I was just like, is this helping really? Um yeah, but um another big piece during that time was uh in church in youth group, um, which was always a kind of a good place for me. But even then in youth group, it was also hard because it was like there was these like male interns there, like college age kids, and I would always want their attention because I wanted the attention, the affirmation, like approval of older males, like that you belonging type of thing. And I wasn't getting that and part of that was mindful because I was always putting up walls with people because I was just like uncomfortable around other guys, mostly like older males I was kind of uncomfortable around, but at the same time, I desperately wanted their approval and attention. So it was like this weird dynamic of like I'm uncomfortable, but I also want like to be connected. Um and a lot of comparison was happening as well, like a lot of comparison with other guys there, and like again, putting guys on pedestals, wanting to be them, not wanting to be me, just not fitting in a lot, kind of again, especially on the city.

SPEAKER_01: 42:56

Yeah, this sounds awesome. Yeah, this is you're just you're just having a great time.

SPEAKER_00: 42:59

Bro, it's fantastic, man. It's it's living the dream, man. It's awesome. Um I can laugh about it now, which I'm just grateful for. But um, yeah, and so at youth group at this time, uh I was trying to find a I was in a small group and it wasn't like I wasn't connecting well. And we're um because again, there's this weird thing where it's like, I'm in grade, I'm a grade younger, but age, I'm in this older group. So at youth group, I'm in this older group of guys, but when they graduate, I'm still gonna be here because in school I'm a grade behind, so it's like, okay, what do you do? So we talked to my youth pastor, and he's like, well, why don't we just put you in the group below so you're be with your group that you graduate with? I'm like, fair enough. So this group was already established. There's a back to only what there's a guy who came to kind of help out. His name is Eric. He um he was no the youth pastor. They were really close to California, they're both from California. They were here in Texas in our church, and he was amazing. He's I'm still really close to him to this day. He's an amazing, amazing guy. He was just so good with all of us, really connected, just putting so much into us. Um, and so he started this uh small group with these guys, and they I didn't name this group, I wasn't a part of them when they came up with this name, but they called themselves the JC Hot Boys, stands for Jesus Christ Hot Boys. I like oh yeah, it was great. It was it was fantastic, it was ridiculous in the best way. But they were they were all a really close-knit group, and I was from the outset I wanted to be a part of that because I was wanting like that connection with guys and like that uh like belonging, all that stuff. I was just like craving desperately. And so that was the group I was in. I was just like, oh thank God. Um so that was a huge help, um, just in helping me kind of feeling like I'm along because like, yeah. But also internally, my my identity and sense of self was just like whacked out. There was no sense of self, um no sense of identity, same attraction, shoving it down, just internal chaos. And at that point, uh, what a man to me was was what my dad and older brothers were, which were uh patriotic, conservative texting name Aggie.

SPEAKER_01: 45:28

And so that's what I built my identity around where the man, Johnny football, that's who you looked at. Like he was that's that's your role model, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 45:37

And that and then just like loving guns and hunting and Republican Christianity, like yeah, America. And so and so I built my identity around that because I thought this is what a man is. It was mad awkward. But you were not into any of that stuff. I mean, I was like, you know, I like aggy football, shooting guns is fun, but no, not really, no. Are you a hunter?

SPEAKER_01: 46:01

I I was you've hunted. I've hunted. It's not like you're not like, oh, it's it's turkey season now. Like that's not not not at all.

SPEAKER_00: 46:12

I I kind of get careless. Yeah. So we we have a we have a family ranch, had a family ranch in South Texas that my grandparents grew up, and we grew up there all the time. We went down there to hunt, so that's where all that stuff came into play with my brothers and dad. And so it was like this big family thing to like grow up, hunt with no dad shoot guns. That was like a big family thing. So it was also like this almost family pressure to be that, right? Because I thought I have to be this for the family, yeah, and for my dad. And it wasn't like they were forcing me, because you know, my dad just was like, fun, well, like, I, you know, want to spend time with my son. This is what we do. And he was being doing he wanted to spend time with his kid, you know?

SPEAKER_02: 46:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 46:53

But at that point, too, me and him weren't connecting a whole lot. Um, just because like uh he was gone a lot, so there wasn't a lot of connection. He struggles with kind of connecting to you because he but you can tell he wants to, you know, he just I don't think he really has a lot of the tools himself, but also I was also putting up walls myself as well. So it wasn't like him, like he was trying to, but I also at that point was kind of putting up walls because I was just like not connecting, didn't really want to. I was at that point when I was at home, I was in my room playing video games because that was a world I could escape into and not be me. I could be the action hero, I could be the man I wanted to be, I could be good at something. Also, video games are just in general addictive and fun to play, but also it was a coping escape mechanism.

SPEAKER_01: 47:42

What what kind of games were you getting addicted to or gaming? A lot of single player fantasy, because again, I could be the action hero in those. I could be, you know, the like like uh like Assassin's Creed, like that kind of thing, or yeah, like Skyram, The Witcher, uh sometimes football, Call of Duty at times, things like that.

SPEAKER_00: 48:01

Yeah, gotcha. Um yeah, and so it was it was hard to feel like a man outside of that, and so it was just this kind of family pressure and like wanting, and I was just wanting to connect with my dad and brothers. So like kind of was forcing myself to be interested, and they were, you know, being different, I wanted to connect too, but they were just doing that, and so I was like forcing myself too, and but also like it was just weird and awkward and just not comes when I felt like kind of the odd one out and like I didn't really belong. So it was it was it was hard, and so um in this small group at church, I felt like I could belong and I didn't have to like I mean I was still putting it up because that that my identity at this point was that and then just brokenness. That's who I was, and so I just embraced that as this is who I am at my core.

SPEAKER_01: 48:52

Uh how long ago was this? I never know how old you are.

SPEAKER_00: 48:57

So yes, I have it. This was 2015, 2016, I was 17. Okay, I think. 17 or 18, I can't remember. Um, but yeah, that was at that point. And then in 2016, so I was really connecting with this group. It was finally, I finally felt like I belonged with guys. It was so, so precious to me because it was like, I finally feel like I belong. I feel like I can kind of be myself, but at the same time, I didn't know who myself was. So it was like weird, but I felt like I could mess up and be weird and be okay with it because they, I mean, we're all were, so it was it was really special. And so in 2016, Eric moved to Atlanta, which was rough. That was extremely rough for me because it was like he was kind of a fill-in to where my brothers and dad were kind of not really around a lot. He was kind of a fill-in to kind of help me and be like a mentor. And then he left, and it was just like this rough man. Um, and when he left, he was kind of the glue that held that group together, and it kind of started to fizzle a little bit. And I was just like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I was like claws desperately holding on, like, no, I'm not letting this thing fall apart. This is my one good thing I have that I have had. I can't lose this. Um and that was hard because there's like, you know, and at the same time, too, with this, you know, with same-sex attraction and all of that, it was like I was getting emotionally dependent and codependent in these relationships. And I, again, at the time, I didn't know I was doing any of this. I didn't understand this is what was happening. And there was, you know, genuine love, brotherly love and affection, and like caring deeply for these guys, and I still do, like, I'm still friends with these guys to this day. But at the time, too, there was this other part of, like you said, like idolizing, putting them on the pedestal, wanting to like be them and not be me, and um kind of being codependent with them, and starting from masculinity and a sense of self and connection to it. And so it was like I was trying to find that in them because I didn't have it in me, I thought. And I didn't understand this at the time, but that's what was internally happening. And I didn't know that that's what was happening, but that's what I was doing unknowingly. Um it's like I couldn't find that sense of stuff in masculinity or who I wanted to be in myself, so it's like, well, maybe I can find it externally through this. Um and I was also like, again, because brokenness was my identity, and I was so like cocooned in that that I would almost like sometimes use that to get attention because I thought that was the only thing I had to offer. Because I was so desperate for like attention and just wanting to be known and heard, and just to be seen, I would like use this stuff to try and get that. But there was also like just a genuine wanting to like be heard and known and just like open up as well. But also I didn't understand that what I was really doing was putting what I was needing from God on them because again, I didn't have that personal knowing and connection with God at that point. So what I was really needing from Him, I was putting on their shoulders. It's like, but it's like humans can't do that. You know, it's like we can't put that on each other's shoulders because like you're trying to put the God-sized hole uh on a human, it's like that's not gonna work. Right.

SPEAKER_01: 52:31

No, it's not true.

SPEAKER_00: 52:32

Um, like to be deeply known, it's like, yes, we can humans we help each other with that, like we need each other for those things, but really what we need is God to get those things in full from Him to be you know complete and known in Him. So then we can just like love each other. Like when we come into this world, we we lack all that stuff because we lack connection with the Father. And when we're connected with the Father, we have that stuff, we're completely lacking nothing. Again, I didn't know all this back then, but that's what I was needing and not knowing. So I was trying to find it through everyone else. Um it's just like an extreme version of self-loathing, basically. Of like, now it's worse, I would fantasize in my head of like an alternate version of me, which is like the ideal version of me, because I just didn't want to be me. So it's like I could erase myself and be somebody else who I really wanted to be, which is just like who I thought would a man be, quote unquote. Um Yeah, and so it was it was hard. All that was happening all at the same time. And so at this point, I was still doing homeschool, severely depressed at home, trying to keep this group together, and they're they go to play with you, they have other friends in the group stuff outside of church, so they're kind of going their own way because like Eric was gone. And so it's like, and they're still coming to church here and there, but I was I was just kind of devastated and trying to live together, and I was still connecting with some of them, like I was getting really close with a few of them, and that was great, you know. We it's a good you know, Christian burly friendship, and I'm still close with these guys to this day, but it was just it was hard, man. Um and a lot of them went to playing a senior, which is a public school at this point. It was my senior year, and so for my last year, I was like, oh, can we try and can I try and go to the school? Like, I want to have the high school experience, like the pep rallies football games. Oh, I've never done any of that stuff, but I want to be a part of it. I want to be here with my friends, like I want to do this, and so we tried to go and uh was denied again because there's just some transcript, and they're like, Yeah, no, it's not can't do it. And it was just like You couldn't go to the public school because of the transcript? I don't know if it was transcript, it was something, it was something like that. My mom tried to like we contact them and they were it was just something was weird and off to where we couldn't do it. And it was just like at that point, I was just like, dude, I'm done with this. I'm just tired of school, I'm tired of this, this is dumb. And so I didn't know what a GED was. So my mom's like, Do you want to just do your GED? I'm like, what is that? She's like, it's just a testing to basically get your diploma so you can be done. Like, yes, please, I'm over this. Let's be done. And so at that point, I was working a part-time job at PECCO, doing youth group, wasn't doing school. I was watching all my friends get like college acceptance letters, all that stuff, and I was just like, and all this time I wanted to go to Texas AM because I grew up in that, I wanted to go there, but at this point I was like, yeah, that's not gonna happen. It's like seeing them graduate, high school parties, like all that stuff. I'm watching it from my room, just bed rotting. And I was just like severely depressed, suicidal, hated myself, hated my life, angry at God. At this point, this is when I came to terms with, okay, same-sex attraction is a thing. That also was a hidden thing that I was hiding as another way to kind of cope. Um so all that was happening, just isolating in my bedroom. And at that point, when the same-sex attraction was coming forth, like when I find it's like I shoved it down for so long, like the dam just finally broke. And I was just like, I mean, I was a mess. I remember I texted Eric because he was the only one I felt comfortable to open up to, and it was like the most word-vomity text I think I've ever sent. Because it was just like all this stuff just like coming out finally. And I remember that that time I was just like crying all the time because it was just like, I don't know what to do, I'm scared, I'm anxious, this is happening, I don't know what to do, I feel like I'm alone on this. I didn't my parents didn't know any of this. Right. I just didn't feel comfortable to open up to them with this stuff. And I mean, I remember I was just like, I started pleading to God, like, take this away, take this away. I don't want this, I don't want this, I don't want this. It's like this cannot be my life, please. I'm begging you, take this away. I remember I was cat sitting for some neighbor's catty corner, and so I'd go over there, I was just like, Mom, I'm gonna go take care of the cats. And I would just go there and just cry for hours. Because I was just like, I was a mess. I didn't know what to do. Um I was going to a counselor at this point just because I was so depressed, and I didn't open up to him about any of this either, because I was just feeling shame of all this and just like self-hatred, and I was angry at God and wrestling with him, and it was it was a mess. Um finally opened up to my counselor and he was it was helpful, kind of helped me unwrap some of this and just helped me to breathe a little bit, just like calm down, able to breathe and see like some solutions, just like some semblance of hope, like God's got you type of stuff. Um I mean it was helpful, but it's still just like, what do I do, man? Because it's like because I mean, growing up, it's like you think the normal thing is like you go to high school, you go to college, you get a degree, you get married, you have kids, that's life. And none of this is happening. I'm just like, okay, what it but what am I what am I doing? It's like what is my life? What am I? I don't know who I am, I don't know what a this is. Um yeah, and so one day I was at on playing video games, and I got a text from a playing friend of ours, her name is Tracy, and backtracking, she was me and my sister had babysitter growing up. We were really close with her. She was awesome with me and my sister. She was like my sister's older sister, because I mean my sister grew up with three brothers, so it's like, you know, she needed an older sister, and Tracy kind of came in and filled that spot for her. So we were really close with her, and then she got married to her husband, Brandon, and he was close. He also kind of came in and was helpful for me as kind of like a the older brother mentor figure growing up and was super awesome with me and my sister. Like they would they also went to AM, so they would bring us down to the weekend and you know, hang out with us, and they were just awesome. So I was texting with her, and uh um she was like, What's going on? How's life? And I just kind of opened up like kind of miserable. Um, and I was kind of opened up and she was just like, I'm sorry, I'm I'm praying for you. And I don't remember if it was that day or a few days later, but she would just call me and she's like, Hey, at this point, they had two kids and we're living in Houston. She's like, hey, this was uh 20, I think 2017 or 18. I think it was 2017, like late 2018 or 2017. But she was like, hey man, Brandon have a spare room. Why don't you just move to Houston and get a fresh start? Just get out of your parents' house, get out of Dallas, nap at your G E D. Let's just get out of Plano and get a fresh start. And that at that point, I was so insecure, and it's like anything that. I would resemble like trying something new or doing something. I was just like, nope, I can't do it. I just constantly like, I can't. Because I was so used to like, you're not enough, you're not good enough. So every little thing. It's like, nope, can't do it. I can't do it. I'm not good enough. So I was just, I was anxious and scared of like everything. And so this, I was just like, I don't know. I don't know if I can handle that. And so then President Brandon called me, and he was just like, it was just the pep talk dining. He was like, hey, this would be really good for you. Like, we're here, we support you, we'll help you with this. But let's do this. And a week later I moved to Houston. Um, it was it was such a god thing because I was like, there was just nothing happening. I was in a rut. I was bedrooming, I was suicidal, I was depressed, it was just like nothing happening. And then out of nowhere, God's like, hey, here's this. I was like, oh, okay, I guess we're doing this now. I was like, okay, cool. Thank you, Lord. Let's do this thing. Um, so yeah, did that, moved to Houston. It was so needed. It was like just a breath of fresh air. Um I was growing a lot, got my GED within like, I think, two months or a month of being there. So, and I passed all my tests first time, which is just huge. It's like, oh, finally I'm done with this. Um, yeah, it was good. And then I was connecting with a buddy of mine from that old high school group. He was we're kind of doing a little bit of discipleship. He kind of taught me how to pray, which is just talking to God, which is mad awkward at first. This is when my personal relationship with him was really starting to like develop because it was like, because I knew this same sex traction was a thing, but I was like, okay, I want Jesus, so I want to like know him and like I want like I want this thing, I want to go after it. It was like, I don't want to go to this lifestyle. It's like, but I was like, what do I do with this thing? Um so we were doing like disabled. I was going to church. I had like some mentors and stuff. It was excuse me, it was a really good time of just like growth, but I was still just like, I don't know what to do with my life. Um, just kind of still feeling lost, and like I don't know what to like what to do. Because I at this point, I was still like, well, if I'm not gonna get married, because I don't know if that's my future, like, what do I do? And I was telling Tracy about this, and she's like, I mean, Paul never married, and she is like, I think the thorn in his flesh was same as construction because he never married, but look what God did in his life. Like, you can still do amazing things, God can still do stuff through you. And it kind of brought me back to uh the Mark Call testimony, voice too, that's like God doesn't need to, he wants to, he can still use you to kind of strengthen your weaknesses, or his grace is sufficient. Like, you can do things. And so I was like, okay, cool. And so I was trying to figure out like what to do, like, what do I do? How do I understand this stuff? Uh uh, and so then I was on Facebook scrolling, and there was a friend from back in youth group, and she did this thing at a uh church camp called Walkabouts, like a 10-month gap disruption program for college-age kids. Just like a program to like get out of the world, kind of be on this, you know, camp away from like you know, uh electronics, the world, just kind of being with God, with a good community, with like mentors, just like to be away and be with the Lord and kind of understand yourself and grow and mature and do like service stuff. And I was just like, this sounds really cool. Like, I kind of want to do this. And that was a huge thing in general to be willing to do something like that. Like, that was a huge because again, I was scared of everything, but to be have a comfortability to like take a leap of faith to do something like that. I was like, cool, like this is awesome, let's do this thing.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:34

Want to take a quick break? I know we've been talking about what's coming up in Michigan. We barely have maybe one or two spots open, so if you want to be there, uh let us know. But we also have events coming up in California in the new year, so you can go to the events page on lovereality.org uh slash events to check it out. Uh so but you could also donate, you could also help keep this thing going at uh loverality.org slash give because uh our plan is to keep on preaching the gospel into the new year. We're about to have wave one again at the beginning of December, and we're ramping it up uh for this holiday season um because uh we feel like that's the perfect time to talk about what Jesus has done. So uh yeah, love for you guys to partner with us at lovereality.org slash give. Love to see you in either uh Michigan or California, and uh yeah, let's get back into this episode.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:37

And so I wanted to do this thing and I uh applied for the program. Family was in full support. It was like it was a year of prep work for it to raise money and you know prepare for it and got into the program. I was like locked in, like, let's go, let's do this thing. Chasing after God, hungry for this thing. Like, let's go, let's do this thing. When in there was way in uh uh West Tex, which is like uh Hill Country, so it's like it's gorgeous. I mean, gorgeous out here. It was away from like electrons, I was like, I wasn't like on the phone stuff, so it was just like a good break from all that stuff, and like the comparison on social media with like you know, other male stuff, I was just like away and with the Lord and with the body, and it was just like like I'm home, you know, because like church from the body always just felt like home, like belonging, like even with all the internal stuff, like it's like this was this is this is home, and so it was it was awesome. And I was I'm an open book with struggles, sometimes to my own detriment, like sometimes a bit too open. But I'm just like my thing is like I just want to be open and honest, like where I'm at, where I'm struggling, just because I want to grow, like I want to be honest so I can grow, like where I'm at with these things. And I was talking to the lead tech counselor, me and him were really close. So I was talking to him one night and I was like opening about same-sex attraction and all this stuff, and I was like, at times I struggle with like attraction to teens, and I'm just like, I don't want that, I'm disturbed, so like I don't know what to do. Like, uh and at that point I didn't understand you and I talked about this once, and you were and when you told me this, I blew my mind because you were like, Okay, so you had an attraction at some point, so all of a sudden that's who you are. It has nothing to do with who you are in Christ, dude. I was just like, oh, so I'm not this doesn't define me. It's like no. At the time I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:27

I thought it was that when I when I had that conversation with you, that blew your mind, huh? That was the first time, yeah. That you're not an attraction?

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:36

Yeah, exactly. It's like just because something isn't in my brain that that has nothing to do with who I am as a person. Because I had those photos and because all this stuff was in my brain, it's like there was so much shame around it. I called myself monster for years. Oh my. Like I just hated myself for it. I was like, you're disgusting, you're gross, you're terrible, you don't deserve to live. Like, this was my internal dialogue to myself. Wow. Because of all of it. And so I opened up to that about him, and I was just like, this is where I'm at. Because he was because I was just like, I want to be honest, like, I want to do the right thing, like I want to grow, I want to be with the Lord. I don't want to reject this stuff, I want to follow him. And so three weeks after that, they sat me down, him and the other leader, and they're like, because it's a church camp, but it's a youth camp here around it in the summer for like churches to come and do like the youth thing. But because of that, they were like, hey, because you opened up about this thing and like we know this is a struggle, like we can't have you here. Like you need we need to have you leave. And it was just like there was so much stuff behind that because it was like, this was like my one win, because it was like, I didn't go to college or any of that stuff, so it was like this was my thing, you know. It's like my one win in three weeks, it's just like falling apart. Like 10-month program, three weeks, and it's just like done. And my future was in this because it was like, if I did this, I got credits for Colorado Christian University. So I was gonna do that after. So it's like my future, everything just blown up because of this. And also, it was just like over I was also already feeling overwhelming shame because this, but that just like blew it times a hundred because it was just like confirmation, like, yeah, you are this thing, and you don't need to be here because this is this could be a temptation for you. We don't want you around this thing. It was just like, you are this thing. It's like your worst nightmare. It's like come through, like, yeah, you are this thing, you need to leave. I was just like, it was a nightmare. It was an absolute nightmare. And so it was after they told me that, I was just like, in this with like, this can't happen, this can't happen. And I was telling the other, because I grew really close with the other kids in the group there, like we were all a tight-knit group. And part of the thing there was we were tell our stories, and I told mine and shared that, and that was just like because I was talking to the guy's name was Seth, he was the leader, and me and him were super close, and that made it all the more painful because I was like, I'm really close to this guy, but I feel like I'm being rejected because of this thing that I don't want. It's like I'm not here to do that. Like, that's not me. It's like I did I feel like you're like putting me in this category of something that isn't me. And it was it was horrible, but I hold on, my cat's on top of me. Come on. We wrote the Vetzka, so he's a little uh in a traumatic state. Understandable. Understandable, yes. Um and so yeah, I was I shared my story and I just told that to the group, and they all came back with love and support, and they were like, what the heck? Like, why are they kicking you out for this? Like, this is dumb. Like they were upset.

SPEAKER_02: 1:09:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:39

And like I was praying, asking God, like, because again, same thing. I was like, Lord, I don't want this, take it away. Like, this is disturbs me. Like, blah, what's going on here? And I was finally finding to get a sense of self outside of that, and this just like nope, you're still this again. The lies, you're not enough, you're good enough, you'll never win. But on top of that, also you're gross, you're a monster. You're yeah, you're just kind of scum of the earth, basically. Um it was horrible. And I remember the day I left, I was just like, I was driving away and I was just sobbing, just sobbing, because I was just and I was just screaming at God, just why? And there was so much behind that why I was like, why everything in my life up to this point? Why would you bring me here just to have it be taken away? Why destroy us when I've asked you to take it away? Just why so much why? I was just, I was angry, I was bitter at him, I kind of hated him in that moment. And at that point I knew, kind of understood. I was grateful that I had an understanding of prayer and that I could be honest with God and just like, because someone told me, understanding like the psalm said, You can be honest about your function. I'm like, you're not gonna upset him, like you already know. So it's like just be real. So I was like, okay. So I was like, I was real, it's just like just fill my guest to him, just like angry, sobbing. I mean, so I was trying to drive back to Houston, and as I was leaving the camp, got a flat tire right outside the camp in the middle of nowhere, phone wasn't working. I was sobbing on the side of the road. Some guys from the camp came to help out, and it was awkward because the guy that came to help was the guy who made the decision to have me leave, so it was just like, Mercy. Hey. And I was crying to him, like, I'm just trying to do what God wants, I just want to follow him. But they helped me change my tire. He prayed for me and sent me away. I met up with a friend in college station on the way back to Houston. We had lunch, and again, just crying in my into my Chipotle. Just, it was a mess, dude. And finally I was like an hour outside of Houston. I had to pull over. I couldn't even drive. I was just I was like hyperventilating, crying. And at this point, my family didn't know. I didn't tell anyone. I told Tracy and Brandon that didn't go well. It was it just put in more shame and just it was it was awful. It was awful. It was just like, I was already feeling so much shame and guilt and condemnation that just like times the hundred just blew it up. And I was talking to a mentor of mine that I already knew back in Houston previously, and I already told him all this stuff, and he was one of the first people I called when I found out I had to leave the camp. And he was, and I called him and I was like, Can you please come get me? I can't even drive. And so he came to get me, he let me stay at his house, and I was just staying in his office on his uh cot for like a couple weeks. It took me two weeks to finally call my mom and let her know what had happened, because I was just I was so scared and full of shame. Because I was just like, so I because I was just so identified with the thing.

unknown: 1:12:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:12:52

What do I tell people? But what do I do? It's like I don't want to be rejected. I don't want people to see me as how I see myself. I don't want like, what do I even do? I was it was bad. And again, I was just like angry at God. I hated him, but I also knew it's like, okay, I know you're I know you're the God of the universe, I know who you are. It's like I know you're the only option, but I'm also furious at you. So I was just like, I was just wrestling heavily with him at that time. Um and so uh when I was having lunch with my friend in College Station on my back to Houston, he connected me with a friend of his in Houston who goes to the church called Antioch. Um and he was uh his name was Luke, and I was at that point I was just desperate for community or just like something. Because I was just like, I need I'm just lost, I need just something at this point. Um and so I met up with him, and I just opened up about everything, and he was he just met me back with love and support, and it was that first lunch was so healing because he didn't see me for the shows, he just saw me for who I am in Christ. That was like one of the most healing things because it was just like okay, maybe I'm not that stuff. Maybe I'm maybe I'm not that I didn't really know who I was, still I still had no sense of identity yourself at that point. Again, my sense of self was brokenness and everything I believed up at that point that the enemy was telling me is you're less than you're not enough, you're not a man, you're a monster, you're disgusting. That was who I was at my core. Um and so uh finally told my mom, which was rough. I mean, and she came back with love and support. I mean, she was awesome. She was just like, I told her what happened, and she was like, Okay, well, we'll I love you, I'm supporting you, I don't see you different, we'll we'll get through this. I mean, my mom, she's amazing. Yeah. And so, and she's like, Do you want me to tell the rest of the family? I was like, please, I don't want to have this conversation. I already had that conversation with like three other people. I was just like, I don't want to just please tell them for me, I don't want to say this part anymore. I'm tired. And so she did, and I'm grateful for that. And um, yeah, so my brother, one of my brothers found out because my brother lived in Houston at this point, and so he and his wife and my come stay with them because they wanted to kind of help me out. And I was grateful for that, so they opened their home up. I was super grateful. So I did that. I was just at my lowest, just again, super depressed, suicidal, not doing good. Um, but I started going to Antioch, I started going to Life Group, which is kind of a small group that they have during the week. Um, and that was super healing. Like, I don't know what it was, because at this point I was still fearless of God. And I think at this point it's just the Holy Spirit just dragging me along. Because he was just like, okay, now we're gonna keep going to Life Group. I'm just like, okay. Because that was just like I just want community and just something to I just wanted something, so I just kept going, kept going. And I opened up to a few more people about what was going on, and they were all again, just love, support, and it was just such a beautiful community because it's like I barely knew these people, and a few months in I was having car problems, and they raised money to pay for it. I was like, I barely know you people, and you're doing this. Like, what's going on? And it it was it was a bit of a culture shock too, because growing up Anglican, this was a non-denominational church, so it was a bit more on the charismatic side. So that was a huge like culture shock. Because growing up, there was like very little talk about like Holy Spirit, you know, the eternal life of Christ in you, like all that stuff was like super foreign. So I didn't know about any of that stuff. I was just starting to understand like personal relationship with God and prayer and kind of like understanding that stuff, but all the stuff about like the Holy Spirit in you and that like personal relationship and like the gift spirit, all that stuff. Like, yeah, no idea. No, that was pretty prevalent here. So I was like, I remember my first couple, every time I would go, they're like during worship, like, hey, I think the Lord has a word for you. I was like, what? I beg your pardon? Yeah, I never experienced that. I was like, what? But every time it was crazy, it was like every time it was like exactly what I needed to hear. So it's just like, what is going on? So it was super powerful and just so healing. Um it was just it was just a treasure. It was such a treasure. And so at that point, I was um saying my brothers got a got a job at FedEx, night job at FedEx Brown. Um just trying to understand, just figure out life, just kind of getting back on the horse at that point, just like, all right, what's next? Gotta keep going.

unknown: 1:17:31

No.

SPEAKER_00: 1:17:32

Um how long ago was that when you started working at night FedEx?

SPEAKER_01: 1:17:37

2018. December 2nd, 2018 was my higher date. You've been working at FedEx for seven years. Was that seven years?

SPEAKER_00: 1:17:45

2018, bro. No, not no, sorry, not 2018. It was uh 2019. Oh. Oh, six years. Yeah. Not seven. Yeah, not seven six. Um yeah, so did that. Um I wasn't because I was at this point my sense of self was just like in the gutter.

SPEAKER_01: 1:18:14

So yeah. We're uh is there like before we get to this other thing, is there is this more of the same, just like sad life, James, or does something happen before like that's switches your point of view, or is it more of the just there's more a little d non-denominational stuff, or is it is it just get dark more more darkness?

SPEAKER_00: 1:18:42

A little bit of both. Antioch is the the light in it and that community, but internally there's still a lot of dark that happens.

SPEAKER_02: 1:18:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:18:50

Um, it's a bit more of the same, but it's just trying to come to terms and understand same-sect attraction and just like trying to.

SPEAKER_01: 1:18:58

How'd you come to terms with it? What did you end up deciding before freedom?

SPEAKER_00: 1:19:04

I mean, the whole thing the entire time was like, I don't want to pursue this, but I just don't really know what to do with it. It's like, okay, I want to follow Jesus, but what do I do with this thing?

SPEAKER_01: 1:19:10

Were you attracted to women as well? Or were you like It was just guys. I've never been attracted to women. It was just like Were you friends with women, like like at a with a- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:19:22

I mean, I was friends with women. I've never feel uncomfortable around them or anything. It was just like I felt more uncomfortable around guys most of the time. Um just trying to connect. And like internally, it's it was weird. It was like internally, I felt like a scared little boy. And like there's like this, I'm the scared little boy internally, but I'm also a man on the outside. It was like this weird dynamic thing of like kind of a lot of immaturity, a lot of immaturity.

SPEAKER_01: 1:19:49

Um so did you think did you think I'm I'm gay? Or did you think I'm struggling with same-sex attraction?

SPEAKER_00: 1:19:57

When I first thought it was I'm gay, because I just thought, okay, I guess that's what it is. But again, I didn't want to pursue the lifestyle. I just thought, okay, like that when I first came out to my parents' stuff, I was like, I'm gay, but I don't want this. I want Jesus.

SPEAKER_01: 1:20:13

Were you attracted to like the gay culture?

SPEAKER_00: 1:20:18

No. No, I I didn't want it.

SPEAKER_01: 1:20:21

Yeah, so you're just like, I find myself attracted to the same sex.

SPEAKER_00: 1:20:26

Yeah, I think it was more just like you said, I think it was just confusion of sexuality, and like I think just when all this was happening, it was just confusion up here. I think it was just not so much I want to be with guys, I want to be someone else. And putting these people on further spots and idolizing them and like kind of um coveting them, basically. Yeah. But I guess it just gets twisted and sexualized. I don't know. Sure. I mean, I think it's just a result of sin and the fall and just deception, honestly.

SPEAKER_01: 1:20:58

Yeah, our minds are plastic, man.

SPEAKER_00: 1:21:00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:21:01

That's how it works. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:21:03

I think it's just the enemy comes in with lies and you know, sin when you don't really understand freedom and all this stuff.

SPEAKER_01: 1:21:08

It's and if you consider yourself the thoughts that you have, like then you can be in trouble with anything. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:21:17

Oh yeah. It's like I'm not defined by like attraction or what tempts me. It's like I'm defined by God. It's like I I didn't know that at the time, but until I start coming around to love reality, but um I just thought all this stuff were defining things, and because I was going to therapy and stuff this whole time, it's like more identified as like, oh, you're a depressed person, you're an anxious person, you're broken, you're this, that, the other, you're broken, all related to brokenness. So it's just further inflating this broken sense of self. Right. Um, so it's just like not a great soil to grow in.

SPEAKER_02: 1:21:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:21:52

Um, and so effedics, going to church at Antioch, good community, but also still like um struggling so much with porn and just bad habits. I I I was living on my own at this point. Um, just like door dashing all the time. Again, I was just trying to numb this internal pain of just like self-hatred. And just my internal dialogue at this point, I'm gonna give you the Disney version of it. You're useless, you're pointless, what's you're dumb, you're worthless, you're garbage. Yeah. But that's the Disney version.

SPEAKER_01: 1:22:27

And that's been going on for some years.

SPEAKER_00: 1:22:30

Some years, yeah. And every little mistake, I was also very perfectionistic. Every little mistake, especially when it comes to my spiritual walk, just dogging myself, just boom, boom, boom, boom. Every time.

SPEAKER_01: 1:22:45

It's no wonder, bro. It's no wonder you were feeling the way you were feeling, the way you spoke to yourself.

SPEAKER_00: 1:22:50

Yeah, it's like, okay, well, kind of like. What can you expect? Exactly. What what do you expect? Like, of course it's gonna be that. Um so yeah, it's and at FedEx at this time, this was between 2019, this is in like the COVID years. That was a fun time. Um, I was going to Antioch, I was growing a lot, but also not a lot. Like, I was still very immature, still chilling with porn like all the time. Very, excuse me, very addicted. Um, but also trying to come overcome it. Like, I did everything, like accountability software, 12-step groups, like the whole mantra of everything the church says to do that's supposed to work and heal you. Yeah, it's like just do these 12 steps and you'll be good. It's like, okay, I did them and I'm still struggling. What's going on? Um, but at the same time, it was just like at like at work, for example, like I was struggling a lot. I was claiming God, but also living totally contrary, like cussing a lot, gossiping, like blaspheming his name, and like knowing it, like getting angry, short-tempered. I always I struggle with a short temper my whole life. Like just getting angry, very not good with emotions at all, very bad with handling emotions and feelings. Not don't know how to process any of it in a healthy way. And so at work, when it would get like chaotic or stressful, I would just like blow up. And it's like, because I, you know, I had a qualified heart, I didn't know that time, I was so insecure in my salvation, severely insecure, no security whatsoever because I was so behavior focused. I mean, everything was just my behavior. So if my behavior was whacked out, I was doubting. And if I was doing good, then it's like, okay, I guess I'm good. Just boop, boo, boop. Anywho. Um, and so at work when you're not doing good, and when you're no you're not doing it, but you're trying to stop it, but you're doing it through works and your self-effort and you're failing, it's just a nightmare. It's like just Romans 7.

SPEAKER_02: 1:24:55

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00: 1:24:56

It's a nightmare. It's awful. Because it's like, I love God, but I'm doing terrible and I know it, but I don't feel I feel powerless against this. And I'm doing everything the church has told me to do, and there's nothing happening. What's going on? What do I do? And I had a bad habit of like isolating from community because of shame. I was just shame was my name at that point. Um and community was just graceful, but I just I just isolated like nobody's business because I just I just was so shameful at my core from just everything that had happened up until that point. Um yeah, and so I I this was in 21-22. I did this discipleship program that my church has called ATS. It's a 12-month discipleship program. It's like a discipleship school to just like grow in the Lord and you know how to kind of do this walk, and I was like, oh yeah, let's do this. This is awesome. It's like at this point, I was trying desperately to find any possible thing I could to one, understand why I was still struggling, like anything I could latch on to to like an explanation as to why. I was like, just give me a reason why to understand why I'm still not growing.

SPEAKER_02: 1:26:07

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 1:26:08

Or just anything I could find to try to grow, I was like, on it. Because it was just, but again, it was all through works and through this mentality of I have to do this because I thought it was all on me to make myself like Christ. And one thing too is like prayer life is like at work, anytime a thought would come in or anything that was contrary to God, I thought it was for me. So I was like, this was my cycle, like anything, like, oh Lord, I'm sorry, that's not me, I repent. Please forgive me. Can you imagine how many times your thought is doing that today?

SPEAKER_02: 1:26:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:26:45

That's all day. That's all day. And I thought that's what I had to do because that's just kind of what I was, and it wasn't like, you know, anyone was like teaching me, you know, bad. I just didn't understand freedom, like I didn't understand gospel. I thought it was I have to do this on my in my own strength. This is all up to me. And, you know, at this point, you know, my relationship with God is, you know, I had the close with him, I was wrestling with him a lot. I was very honest with prayer, like like even to the point of like cussing at him. Like, there was times when I was in like deep, deep pain, and I was just like feeling abandoned by him, and I was just like, I want you to know how painful I'm feeling, so I'm gonna say like the most painful thing to you because I don't feel like you can understand. I was just raw and honest with him, just about everything, because I was just like for sure. It was like, I want it was like at this point, I was so desperate for my heavenly father. There was like this back and forth of like angry at him because I don't feel like I'm growing and just hating myself for it, and this constant pressure of like I have to do this and insecure my salvation, and like terrified of him. Because I was I was not secure. I was scared of hell, scared of him coming back. Like, the point if he comes back, I'm not ready, I'm not like to the point of like fetal position, crying in my prayer closet because I was just anxiety attack all the time. All the time. Um, so I was doing ATS, that was awesome. It was such a beautiful thing, good community. And again, it was like this constant cycle of like seeing some moments of victory, but then just like backpedaling. And it was just this cycle over and over and over and over and over and over. And when they're doing that for years, it just every time you fall back, it's just more devastating each time. So that's why, for example, like when we would talk, when I would like relapse after a time why it was so hard to get out of it, that this is why, because there's just this extended time of just like, you know, wanting my first love, but feel like I'm spitting in his face and failing him, and it's just devastating. It's devastating. And just the proverb hope, deferred makes the heart sick, which is keep going to mind of just like I'm trying all this stuff to try and fix and heal myself, and it just keeps getting deferred. It's like nothing is working.

SPEAKER_02: 1:29:07

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 1:29:08

It's like I kept hitting rock bottom or like the end of myself. And so I kept going through this cycle of like being on fire for God, but then like burning out inevitably, because it's like I'm doing all this in my own strength. So then I would backpedal and relapse and self-medicate and like isolate from community and God and just like be angry at Him and you know be whacked out at work and then but also know it as well. Like I would know I'm doing this stuff, and I was like angry at myself, but also again perilous to sob. But so it's it was just a nightmare. And it was just I was just sobbed. I was just like, I just want my dad. I'm talking my heavenly father. Like, I love my earthly father, he's amazing. My parents are incredible, I love them, I'm so grateful for them. But I also knew it's like I know I want God, and He's like He's my. Father. And but I felt this disconnect from him. It was because I didn't understand who I was or who he was. But the looking back, the thing that I was so angry at wasn't God, it was my theologically flawed version of him. That I was so frustrated at. And I just felt powerless to do it. But I also was just like still reading though in the New Testament of like all these promises, but I'm just like, okay, where's the disconnect? It's like, I feel like I'm just living Romans 7. How do you get to Romans 8? Like, how does that happen? Like, I remember I was I was listening to a podcast and I was not doing good. And he was talking about like, I think it was the Duck Dynasty podcast. And he was like talking about his friend of his struggle with anger, and he was like, dude, you gotta be born again. And I remember screaming, I was just like, how? Like, how does this work? Like, I want to know. I was like, God, I want you, but I I don't get this. And I was I was just like crying, sobbing, anxiety at times. Like, I just I want you, I want you, I want my dad, I just want my dad. I want to go home. I just want to go home. I'm tired of my life. Just please take me home. When that was that, I was just I was broken and in pain. And at that point, I was like, I just want to go home. I want my dad, I want to be in heaven, I want to be with Jesus, I want to hug him, I want to be with my brother, I just want to go home. And so I did ATS, and that was good. And we did a mission chip at the end, and that was good, but at the same time, I was like, what good news am I sharing? It's like I again I know the gospel of like, can't Jesus had one day go to heaven, but it was just like good luck until then. It's just like I got I don't know what good news I'm sharing with these people because I'm like I'm a mess. Like, what what am I sharing that's good news? Like, I want to share good news, I want to do this, I want to go after this thing, but I don't know what I'm doing. And um a beautiful thing that came out of ATS was one of the guys that came to talk was uh his name is Ricky Shalette, he has a ministry up in Dallas, which is the Christian LGBT uh support group. Um, which was and you came and talked, and I was just like, and you talked about like things like stuff, and it was just like, you're sharing my life on the whiteboard right now. I was like, I connected so much to it. I'm just like, oh. I was like making so much sense of why all the stuff I was chilling with back then, I was like making so much sense like, oh, that's why. Okay, I'm just connecting all these dots. And so I went and talked to him after I'm like, I was like, ask a question, but then I was like, do you have any like support for kind of do this thing in Dallas where she's like, there's one in Houston? I'm like, what is it? Because it's like, you know, a lot of I had a good solid community in Antioch, and it was good guy friends too, so that was a beautiful thing. It's like I had good guy friends I connected with that really knew me, like all of me, and still accept me, so that was just super healing and beautiful. Um and so they knew all this stuff, but it's like they can help and support, but it's like I needed an outlet to be able to process this stuff and understand it with other people who understood.

SPEAKER_02: 1:33:24

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 1:33:24

And that's where Lyft Ministries came in. It's a based in Houston, it's a Christian SSA support group for guys and girls that has a redemptive view, so it's not like affirming, but it's like, you know, we know Christians struggle with this, but a lot of the church doesn't have outlets for this at all. Either it's you're banned from church or we're gonna affirm you in this. So it's like there's not a lot of good outlets for this in the church, unfortunately. But God in his grace and just timing and just amazingness at the perfect time when I desperately needed something like this, plop this in my lap. So I met with the leader of it, his name is Chris. I did an intake, was just kind of sharing my story and what I was showing up and stuff, and started going to group. And it was oh, it was so neat. It was such a gods at that point because I so needed a group, just an outlet to be able to just express the essay struggles porn, all this stuff. Because most of the stuff was rooted in like this insecurity, not knowing who I am, just poor lack of sense self and SSA, and just wanting to um overcome it but not knowing how. So it was just a really good outlet to just pour all this stuff out. And because like at there were there were in those times when I was like super down and like backsliding and just like isolating from church. That one I was still going to because I knew I could just be super a mess and just be honest, and they were just encouraging supporting. It was beautiful. And it always was, I mean, every time it was just like Holy Spirit was just encouraging and supporting us. It's it's a beautiful thing. Uh Live to Ministries, it's it's a beautiful, beautiful thing. But even then, it was like, I'm still at this point, I was like, okay, I'm not growing. I want to grow out this thing, something's going on, so I was like, okay, I want to go back to basics. I want to know what the gospel is, I want to know what the stuff is. So I'm gonna go on a journey and understand. I'm gonna go back and try and figure this thing out because I I need to know. I just need to know, because I want God, I want this thing, I want to go after him, I want him more than anything. The only thing I want is is him and to live for him. I don't know how, and I need to understand this, because I if I don't get this, I can't live my life. I just can't. Because this is the one thing that I care the most about, and it's the one thing that I feel like I'm struggling with the most, and I I can't do that. He's the most important thing in my life. And so I started on a journey of trying to understand the gospel, just researching the Bible, um, just trying to get it, and I found a lot of good ministries that were similar to uh reality, which is just identity stuff and freedom from sin. And so I was starting to get glimpses and pieces of it of just like conducting these out, just like, okay. But even then, it was just like, okay, I'm seeing this stuff, I'm understanding these things in the New Testament, that's promising. But it's like, how is this? I still don't know how this works. And when I would bring this up to people at like church or group, it was just like, it was still this mentality, and I was getting frustrated because it was just like this, yeah. Well, you know, we're always gonna sin, we're you know, we're broken. It was just like this mentality of like, just settle for less. It's like, yeah, but you know, Romans 7, I was just like, I'm not a very stubborn person, but this I was stubborn because I was like, no, I'm not settling for less. This is the gospel, this is Yahweh, this is the most important thing. And you're telling me that this is the most it is? No, I refuse. I'm not expecting that. I'm not gonna give up on this. New Testament is telling me this stuff that seems to be a past tense or a current reality, and I need to know because I'm not giving up on this. Like, I'm not gonna sell for less. I can't do that. I just can't. I cannot do that. I refuse. Um, and so this was March 8th of 2024. I was there was a night when I was kind of a mess. I was texting Chris. I was just like, I'm not doing it, I don't know if I'm safe. He was like, dude, you wouldn't be concerned about this if you weren't safe. This people would constantly tell me this constant reassurance, but I was just so insecure, and that kind of helped. I was this is just a worship music, kind of calming down a bit, just like, okay, I'm okay. It's like, let me watch a sermon, and lo and behold, God in this timing. Guess who? Sermon that popped up Happy Dan himself.

SPEAKER_01: 1:37:49

Let's go. Dan Moeller.

SPEAKER_00: 1:37:52

And I was just like, yeah, though. The title was like, Christianity is all about dying to yourself, so you can truly even know it's and the thing about that is like all those were such tree words, like die to yourself, deny yourself, take it, all those, like I couldn't read the gospels because I always felt so condemned and like I'm not doing enough. I avoided the gospels like the plague. So all those things about like not doing enough, I was just so triggered because so much of it was just like through this veil of like almost threat of just like you're not doing enough, and like the threat of like hell, it was all like that threat of like that thing we talk about, like you know, love me or the burn forever type of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kind of mentality. So it was just like I was just terrified. So all that stuff is like so tricky. So initially I was like, I don't know. It's just the thought. I was like, oh god, is it gonna be one of those so-and-so again? So I was like, let me give it a shot. And an hour later I watched the whole thing, I was just like, okay, well, either this guy is out of his mind, he's on drugs, or there's something about the gospel that I've missed and he gets it and I want it.

SPEAKER_01: 1:38:57

Let's go.

SPEAKER_00: 1:38:58

Because I was just like, the way he's talking with just such authority and like assurance like this was my lived experience. And it wasn't like uh, I'm so great, but it was like, this is for all of us. Yeah. You know, it was all about like identity, like you're not what you are. You know, it's not about living for yourself, it's about living for his great name and all that stuff. And it was just like, it just helped me understand the start of understanding the gospel and the perception of self and identity. And it was just like, and never since then I was like, I don't want what he has, I'm going after this thing, because I the way he was like, I don't live in fear anymore. Like I don't, like I'm just not afraid. I was just like, uh, I beg your pardon, like I don't have to live like this. Like all the stuff that we think is like normal living, like he said, she said, you know, insecurity, fear, all that stuff that we think is just like, well, it's just life. He's like, nope, it doesn't have to be. I'm like, wait, wait, what? That doesn't have to be my life the rest of my life? Right. It was just like a breath of fresh air of life, oh, okay, okay, okay. Understanding now. Let's do it. So I was binging Dan Muller for like a solid couple months. Like just, I was like, prayer closet, like just, you know, telling myself the truth, you know, just everything. I was going after this thing like crazy. And it was, and that night I prayed a prayer, just like, Lord, I've been living for myself still. I think I want to live for you. Just, you know, just I want this thing. I want to go after that. And I noticed a shift. And the next night I was uh just like, I don't know if it was the next night or a couple nights after, but it was like my magic text me, like, hey, we need help, can you come into work? And before then I would never have done that. I was like, I would have blown it's like, no, forget you, like, I'm not doing that. But I was like, it's like, no, I want to go help him out. And I was just like, wait, I want to go help him out, that's different. And so it was just really different. It was just like joy joyful going into work at FedEx, which that never happened, and wanting to go help out and serve. I was just like, this is different. And at the time I was like, well, that must have been when I was saved, because I was so behavior focused. It's like the behavior stuff was starting to not happen. So I was like, well, I guess that that's when I was saved. Because again, everything was all about behavior. Back then, I looking back, I think it was just I was finally starting to understand the gospel and what this thing is about. I think it's just the starting point of that kind of seed-taking root. For sure. Um but those next few months I was growing a lot. I got rebaptized. I was baptized when I was a kid, but I didn't remember it. I was like, I want to be baptized again because I feel a growth in this thing, and this is awesome, and I'm seeing all this growth, and this is awesome. I was going to church a lot more and consistency and seeing freedom, and it was it was awesome. It was a beautiful time. So I got baptized, it was awesome, but like the porn thing kept happening, and I kept flying back, and I was getting frustrated because I'm like, come, come on, man. Like free.

SPEAKER_01: 1:41:55

Get a hold of yourself, right?

SPEAKER_00: 1:41:56

Yeah. It's like, come on, like, I know the truth. Like, what's going on? Why isn't this happening? And uh, yeah, and so then I eventually just kind of fell back into the just the depression of just like kind of back in the works, kind of freaking out, like, okay, well, I guess I gotta do it myself. And just I fell back into the loop and got depressed again. I went on a mission trip to Scotland, and again, it was the same thing as last time. I was just like, what good news am I sharing? A bit more understanding of it, but not enough to be like, hey, good news. It was just like, pray this prayer and go to heaven one day. But good luck until then. Um, one second. Yeah, it was just like, come on, man. And so I don't remember when it was. I think this was way before, but I ran, I think it was Instagram. I ran across Justin's Instagram, and I started reading some of his posts, and I was like, You know which one grabbed you? Or it was just you don't remember that. There was multiple. I was just like screenshotting and just like rereading over and over, and just like this is back when I was still in that back and forth, like doing good, not doing good, because I was I was grasping like anything that was like a breath of fresh air type gospel stuff. Because there was so much like legalism that I was dealing with, like legalism, scrupulosity, just all that craziness. And so like I was trying to get away from that. So anything that was not that was like I was still like I was still like I gotta make sure it's biblically sound though. Like, I don't want to not be biblically sound, I'm like, oh like that's right, for sure. Which is a good thing, you know. It's uh no, it's not a bad thing at all, but I was always making sure like does it line with scripture? Um but I was but then afterward, it was like sign up for that good good. I'm like, that good good, that sounds weird, I'm not sure. Okay, so I I didn't do it at the time.

SPEAKER_01: 1:43:48

Oh man, we're wearing against ourselves. I know we have a better name. We thought that good good was a good name.

SPEAKER_00: 1:43:55

No, it was good, it was it was new. I was just like looking back and like, well, dang, I should have joined a lot longer ago. But God's timing is perfect.

SPEAKER_01: 1:44:02

How long did it take for you to to actually pull the trigger and sign up?

SPEAKER_00: 1:44:07

Well, it was I saw those posts and I kind of forgot about it, and then I kept running across it again and I delved deeper into it. And it wasn't that because I I don't I don't remember what I discovered. I think it was that, and then I found the podcast and I started listening, and I was just like, bro, I felt so seen with so much of it because there were so many people.

SPEAKER_01: 1:44:26

You just found the podcast just through Justin Q, or did you start following Love Reality and kind of gotten a little bit?

SPEAKER_00: 1:44:30

I think I got found love reality and then just kind of dived into the whole thing. I was just like, I'm seeing, okay, this is all part of a thing. And so I started listening with the podcast, and I was like, I felt so seen with so many of the episodes because I was like, oh my gosh, I'm not alone. This other people are experiencing it, and then they were talking about freedom. I was like, excuse me, I was like, wait a minute, oh, it's like the thing that Dan Moe was talking about. I was like, other people are experienced. This isn't just a dance thing, like this is possible for all of us. I was like, so I was just started binging, I was just like taking notes, it's like, okay, okay. I'm starting to get it, starting to get it. Then I watched wave one and wave two on YouTube. It was the short versions of it. And I started to kind of get it, and that's when my paradigm was just like, and that's when I emailed you. At that point, I was still just like low with all this stuff. Emailed.

SPEAKER_01: 1:45:23

Yeah. You emailed me, like Richard at Love Reality, or hello at Love Reality. Do you remember? I think it was hello, and then you responded. Let's I gotta I gotta see it. What what is your uh I reread it because I that's how I found out it was a year. I'm gonna search it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:45:39

What's your what's your email address? James Newberry522 at gmail.com.

SPEAKER_01: 1:45:45

James Newberry522. Let's see if I can find it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:45:49

Yeah. Oh man. So I read back it, and I was just like, it was all the struggles and stuff, and then I was like, well, I'm also seeing this thing, and I like I want to understand this. Help me out. And I'd done that before. I had emailed so many different people just trying to get answers, and it wasn't like super helpful, but I was again, I was just desperate for any type of answer I could get.

SPEAKER_01: 1:46:11

So I responded, and you and I were just having a conversation then. Yeah. This is before you went to that good, good. Yeah, before I went to any Bible study. Was it encouraging? I don't know. What did I say?

SPEAKER_00: 1:46:26

Um the one thing I remember is like, okay, well, you don't have a sin problem. You have I was talking about the porn, like you have a habit. Habits can be changed. And I was like, but and at that point I was so like legal is to like, no, it's a moral problem. Like I'm sinning, like I'm doing the wrong thing, like I'm doing this other thing. Internally, I was doing it, but I was like, You wanted me to yell at you? Yeah, basically. Basically, because I thought, you're supposed to, I'm doing the bad thing, man. But then you didn't I was like, oh, wait, wait, what? The hammer's not coming down. Where's the hammer? The hammer's supposed to come down. Um, yeah, and so started going to Bible studies, paradigm just explodes, learning a lot and taking notes. I'm just like consuming like a madman, like Bible studies books. I read no longer I like three times, I think, in a row. Again, taking notes. I was just like consuming like a madman. I was just obsessed because I was just like.

SPEAKER_01: 1:47:26

What was the first thing that you like started to believe? Like, yeah, this is true.

SPEAKER_00: 1:47:32

Um I think the most powerful parts were just like identity stuff of just like I'm a son, I'm always a son, I've always been a son, I'm not what I've done or what I've been, or the past doesn't define me. And so much of it was just so freeing, and it didn't like there was a lot of head knowledge, it hadn't really gone to heart, but it was just like just that alone was just so freeing of just like I'm already free. I don't have to work for this thing, I don't have to work to be righteous, I'm already righteous because of what Jesus did. It's not about me making myself righteous, it's not about me, it's about what he did.

SPEAKER_01: 1:48:10

How did you consider this with your same-sex attraction?

SPEAKER_00: 1:48:15

Um I was so identified with it. I think it took a while for that to break, but it was an understanding of just like, okay, maybe that's not actually my identity. Maybe that's not who I am.

SPEAKER_01: 1:48:28

So is did you and I have that conversation in between, like in this time then?

SPEAKER_00: 1:48:32

Yeah, it was it was pretty early on that we talked because I was again, I was just an open book because I was just I wanted the healing. I wanted to, I was going at this thing. I was just like, through hella high water, I'm gonna get this thing, I'm gonna share and be honest. I'm just like, I want to know. I want this thing, I want him, and I want to live in the fullness of what he paid for more than anything. That's all I want. Let's go. That's all I want. And so um I did that. I decided to do ATS a second time if I cherry through like a different lens. There's just like I felt a calling by God through again. I was like, okay, cool, you know, why not church? Let's do it again. And it was good, it was it was pretty solid. Um, but again, I was I was struggling with porn, and again, the the thing with the porn is there was so much shame attached to it, is and again, because of the concept back and forth, anytime I would slip with anything, because I was still so perfectionistic, I would just go right back into shame cycle and just the roller coaster, as you and I have started to call it. Now I would just like stop going to BioStore, just like sit in that for a few weeks, and I was just like, wait, eventually kind of go back to truth. I would start to reread like no longer I'm set to kind of pull out of it, but it you know, it it would take a lot longer than you know a week. It would take a couple minutes, but anyway, so I did ATS again and it was going good, and then this was in when was this? This was last like October, November, I think. I was talking to my life group, um, and I was just like, I'm tired of FedEx, I'm tired of working nights, I kind of want to do something else, something that pays more because I want to do ministry work, but I don't know what that looks like. Um and they're like, I mean, Paul may tent spar, just do something like that. I'm like, that's a good idea. And so my cousin, she's a welder, and so um I kind of talked to her about it, and then after toss a wall in school pop to him, I'm like, no something's cool. So I went and checked it out. I was like, why not? Let's do this thing. Um, because I wanted to have something that like pays well so I can like, you know, give and help people and stuff like that. And so I was like, okay, cool, let's do that. So I signed up for one school, and I couldn't do ATS in school, it was just kind of too much going on, so I didn't stop the ATS that way through. Um and just did loan school. And that was I backstab really bad during school. It was it was really, really bad. It was I was doing nights full-time during the week, and then on weekends I was welding from 8 a.m. to 6 p.m. standings. So I couldn't really go to community. My in-person community, I couldn't really go to church that much, and I was just working in just the lack of community and just the backsliding and back to porn and food, door dashing, all that stuff. I just the shame and self-hatred all just came back with a vengeance. And I was kind of depressed, suicidal again, not doing good. Um by the grace of God, I graduated, graduated on the Dean's List somehow. Again, I think that's just God's grace. But finished school, finished that, I was just like, okay. And by the end, and I was still kind of coming around to community, but I kind of took a again, I was isolating. Um, so I wasn't really around Bible studies as much anymore. And towards the end of that, I was listening to uh music has been a huge part. God always speaks me through music a lot of the time. Again, voice of truth was a huge one. That's still prevalent. And at this point, there was a song I was listening to by Stephen Stanley, it's called Gonna Have to Trust You. And the chorus goes, I've been to dark places, I lost my foundation, I'll scrape my knees, begging for something new, just hold on tight so I can make it through. There's nothing else I can do, I guess I'm gonna have to trust you. And another song on the same album came out, you know, it's like I tried it my way, it was nothing but heartache. It doesn't make sense, but I'm a trustfall anyway. And both of those, I feel like I was just saying, like, okay, James, you can do two things. You can either keep trusting in that the past defines you, that this old stuff defines you, that you are what you do, or you can trust in my work and what I've done in UIC. Now it's just like, rather lose, might as well trust well into your arms. I was like, at this point, I was I was so just like down in depressed, I was like, screw it, let's just do it. And that was the same thing with the coaching, because that's when the coaching group was starting to advertise that. And when I signed up for that, when you first when I first saw it, when I saw the price, like I cried when I first saw it because I was just like, I just want to be free now to pay that. I can't afford it. And then you and I talked, like, we can do a paper product. I'm like, okay. So I was like, I want to dance thing. This seems like it's actually a group that's not just about behavior. Like this seems solid. And so when when I set up for that, it was the same thing. I was just like, might as well, let's do it, why not? Because that was that's kind of my attitude. Like during one score, it was like the most solemn ecclesiastes I think I've ever been about life. Because it was just like, again, I was just angry at like, what's the point of life? This is dumb. I was just questioning him, questioning. Like, I was just angry at him with again, just all this stuff that I don't know. It's just like, what's going on? Like, why would you even make Satan if you knew he was going to deceive? Why would you even put the tree there? Why would you do this? And I was like, What's the point of life? I'm just gonna work for nothing. This is pointless. Like it was again, just everything is vanity. Everything all is vanity.

SPEAKER_02: 1:54:10

Merciless.

SPEAKER_00: 1:54:11

It's so ecclesiastical. And back checking, one of my coping mechanisms through all those past years of just like not doing it was I was given to these like super elaborate fantasy worlds that I would make in my head. Again, there's like the ones back in my ultimate me, but it just like progressed into just like the ultimate house, like all the possessions that I want, just the my world that I would want, or making my head spend hours in my room in my bed just like researching, like making it.

SPEAKER_01: 1:54:41

That was making your life worse, by the way. You know that.

SPEAKER_00: 1:54:44

It totally was. Waste of time making all it was yeah, dumb, dumb. But a huge good lust that came out of it, and it just showed me just the vanity of stuff of the world. Because it was just like, no matter how great I made this fancy world, all this material stuff, it didn't fill the God-shaped hole. It wasn't enough, because obviously it's not. So it's just like, yes, it was a waste of time, yes, it wasn't dumb, but I'm grateful because God kind of showed me like, yeah, yeah, the world doesn't cut it, man.

SPEAKER_01: 1:55:15

For sure.

SPEAKER_00: 1:55:15

Yeah, come to me. Just please, just come to me. Let me. I want to love you, just come to me, please. Like the whole time he was just saying that, but I was I had walls that because I was scared of him, because I had shame and a broken identity, and that kept me from like intimacy and communion with him. Like I had these blockers that I didn't really know that I had. Because I had a bad view of him and a bad view of myself, because I didn't understand freedom for who I was, it just hindered uh communion with him. And the thing that I needed most was him, and was that intimacy. And because I was so focused on the past and so like identified by the past and so like looking back, it's like Dan Muller talked about this now. The past has the ability to separate you from his love. Not that he leaves because he never leaves to forsake you. Like all those years, he never left me. He was there, closer to my juggernaut. I was just too angry and consumed with the past myself to see it. But it's like it totally does because when I'm looking at the past and looking at all the problems, I can be like, why God, why God, why would you do this? Why would you let this happen? And it has the ability to separate me from his love because I believe the lie. Because of X, Y, and Z, you don't love me. And so all that did was just create this barrier. And there was always this like thought, again, because I didn't understand he was in me, like I'm his temple, I didn't quite get that. So there's always this like distance that I thought, like, he's way up here, I'm way down here. So there's always this like distance between us that was not there, but I thought it was there.

SPEAKER_01: 1:56:57

For sure.

SPEAKER_00: 1:56:58

And so that just hindered intimacy that I needed to bring healing to this stuff for him to show me truth and revelation of who I am, and that all this past pain is not pain, it's divine purpose for his glory and his great name. It's not bad, it's it's it's glory for him. But I I couldn't see it that way at the time. And so, yeah, at the crossroads of just like trustfalling, I was like, alright, let's, you know, let's go after this thing again. And so, um, yeah, it's just very much the like hurry up and die already. I love when Tyler said that. I was just like, that's so good. It's just like, yeah, just hurry up and die already. Like, just die this past, die this old broken stuff that's not who you are. It's not doing you any favors to keep identifying with it. Like, why keep embracing it? Like, there's no point. It's he's already taken care of it on the cross. That's a dead man. Like, why keep carrying something that's not yours to carry anymore? Why keep wearing an old tatter robe when I have a robe of righteousness tailor made for me? It's like there's no point of wearing this past and this brokenness when this has nothing to do with who I am in him. It has nothing to do with that.

SPEAKER_01: 1:58:12

Bro, do you recognize now at least how far you've come? Oh yeah. In in just believing and understanding and taking God at His Word.

SPEAKER_00: 1:58:23

Yeah, it's like I was I've been meditating these past like week, just kind of pondering, just like looking back, the good looking back, at what God's done. And just like, really unless you're because there's those seven months that I wasn't around of just like what he showed me. And it was this whole journey of understanding gospel, but it like culminated in this. It's just like in a few months, the things he's done and shown me and the revelations and the renewing he's done. I mean, that's there's really not words, just how good he is. And and the other thing, too, is at this time when I was really struggling, I was talking to a good brother of mine at church named Spartan. He's the blah, this guy's amazing. Uh real good brother in Christ, but I thought kind of uh safe to open up with him. So during the Wolden School, and I was really doing bad. We kind of get lunch here and there. And uh this was right at the kind of crossroads moment. He invited me to church, and I was just like, I don't really know if I want to go. I was kind of down, and I was he's like, just come to church. Or I'm like, alright, whatever. And that day there was um during worship, there was a song that we sang. It's it was do it again by I think Evelation or Elevation. But um, and it's it goes walking around these walls. I thought by now they'd fall, but you have never failed me yet, waiting for change to come, knowing the battle's won, for you have never failed me yet. Your promise still stands, great as your faithfulness. I'm still in your hands. This is my confidence, you've never failed me yet. And I feel like God was just showing me that's just like his faithfulness that all those times that was super unfailing. In a way that he was just like, No, you're my son, you're my boy, I'm I'm faithful to the end. I will never leave or forsake you. Like, no, we talk about this little one saved, always saved, and all that sort of stuff. It's like, bro, if if he would have left, if I could have lost it, I totally would have those years when I was going back and forth. That just shows that like when he commits to something and when he says and you're sealed and you're when he says you can't snatch me, it's like he's he's true to his word to that. Because it's like it was not me being faithful, he was faithful and close to my jugular vein and never left and never saw me for prodigal or the sin. He always saw me as his son. And he was just kind of showing me that it's like I'm faithful, and I'm not angry or disappointed in you. I'm just I I love you. I just want you to know that. And it was just it was so I guess it's like, okay. And then finally unlocked that kind of secure attachment with my heavenly father, where I finally just felt safe with him. It's like I felt that knowing and that I'm safe in my father's hands where I don't have to be afraid or insecure or scared of him coming back or scared of hell, or like no. It's like my father has my back, and it's like I finally knew that at that time. And so um started doing this, started going to coaching group, which was so helpful in trying understanding like how to process feelings and emotions and urges and not seeing you know, porn all this stuff is just like a moral, just like sin, or just like evil, bad, you're evil, bad, you're it's just like these are habits. It's like sin has no grip on you. Sin, you're dead to sin and life to God in Christ. Like you don't have sin problems, you have habits. Like, yes, it's still sinning, but it's like this has no hold on you. You have habits, and you're unlearning that through intimacy and love with the father and with the community, not through like you know, thrifts or do better or work harder. It's just that doesn't help. That doesn't I can tell you from experience that does the opposite effect, it makes you miserable. Um back to Bible studies, but still really struggling with shame and self-hatred. The coaching group is finally offering solutions and help to that, kind of processing through that. And kind of finally starting to see myself, right? Like truth and freedom is finally starting to penetrate the those hard walls and hardness that just grew for years of self-hatred and those lies, excuse me, those lies of you're never enough, you're not good enough, you're a monster, just all that stuff, finally starting to break down because it's like I'm not any of that stuff, I'm my father's child. Like I'm a righteous son of the king. Not because I've been so great, I made myself because of his good work on the cross, because it was a complete work, because he did enough. It's like I was finally just felt a father, and back to the just voice of truth, it's just like all those times of that boy that thought he'd never win, that thought he was just not enough, it's just like no, I I won the whole time because I had him. It wasn't because like I didn't need college or high school and that stuff or like I didn't need that stuff to win. I had him, and that I I I'd already won.

SPEAKER_02: 2:03:32

Let's go.

SPEAKER_00: 2:03:32

Like I won the lottery. And he's been teaching me and showing me just contempt in him. And you know, the thing where I'm at now with same-sex attraction is like that stuff can pop in my head, but I know that's it's like I know those sin stuff, it's not coming from me anymore because he gave me a pure heart. He gave me a new heart with this law written on it. He removed that heart of stone and gave me a heart of flesh. He he circumcised me from flesh, he brought me from death to life. I'm a new creation. The old is passed away, the new is here. It's like that old stuff isn't coming from me, it's coming from sin. That isn't who I am anymore. I'm not defined by that. So it's like if that pops up, I know that's not me. It's not coming from me. And yeah, I may not find women attractive, and I feel at peace and contentment with singleness because it's like, no, if I'm single the rest of my life, I'm totally at peace with that because it's like I don't need a wife or marriage or kids or that stuff to make me whole. I'm whole and complete in Christ. He's my everything. It's like marriage and family and kids are fantastic. Those are beautiful gifts from him. But that's not the end-all be-all of Christianity. He is. And when you have him, you have everything. You don't lack anything. I don't lack anything. I don't lack anything at all. He's my everything. It's like, it's not about me and you know what I do, it's what he did. It's like I don't relate to the past. Um I remember this one night God was, this is very recently, he was like telling me about the SSA thing. He's like, Surrender yourself to God. I'm like, but I've already did, Lord, I've prayed that prayer many times, and I was just like, What do you mean I have? He's like, no, you don't understand. He's like, son, I need you to let that go. I need you to not identify with that, I need you to drop that competi, because that's not who you are. I've never seen you for that. I never made you for that. You kind of paint this picture of me standing over a dead body with a stick and poking at a dead corpse. Like, this is what you're doing when you're still trying to look back and understand it and figure it out. It's it's pointless. That that guy's dead. That's not who you are, that's a dead man. There's no need. It's like drop it. You don't have to carry that anymore. And I was starting to hear his voice so clearly, and I was craving so long to hear him and seek a place and know him, and there were still some barriers, and we processed through that. And remember the night we did. I was in there for an hour and thirty minutes. And it's like I was just writing what he was telling me. And for an hour and thirty minutes, I was constantly writing notes. And it was just his him speaking truth and life over me. And it was like, it's almost like he was waiting forever for me to unplug my ears from all the garbage I had here heard over the years and to understand and see him rightly, and for the damn of you know, brokenness to break to finally see myself and see him rightly, for him to be able to speak life. And it was one of the most beautiful times I've ever heard. Now it's just that's every day. It's like I'm free from the past. The trumi is found in him and only him. His blood speaks better things. Um I'm not who I was. Um I am who I am by the grace of God, and it's like I'm free from guilt, shame, condemnation. It's like that has no, I don't mean guilt, you know, guilt says you're not forgiven. Condemnation says your life's worthy to be judged, and change says you are what you did. It's like that's what the enemy wants, he wants to do. He's like, he wants to say, like, keep looking back, you know, keep things low with regret. You are those things. You're still you're still the alcoholic, you're still the pornography, you're still this, you're still that. That's who you are. Embrace it. It's like you're still defined by those things. It's like keep looking back. It's like so much of scripture says to not look back. Like, remember Allah's wife. It's like we don't look back. The past has no hold on us. It's like the pain and all that stuff, it has no grip. And it's like if I saw back then what I see now, it's like we wouldn't have been acting like that. It's just like it unlocks the whole new way of saying things. It's like you can actually love people and keep no record of wrongs. Because you understand that if people understood who they were, who they were made for, and who they are, they wouldn't be acting like that. So you don't, you're not angry at them, you just feel bad for them. Because it's like, man, if they knew how loved and precious and valuable they were, they wouldn't be acting like that. But it's because they don't have connection with their father, because they're blinded by sin and they've been lied to by their false father, the devil, their whole life that they're hurting and they're broken and they're lost, and they you know, you don't feel angry or bitter at them. It's like you can see the worst of humanity, like people who act on like terrorism and all those horrible, horrible things, and it's like, yeah, you're grieved by what they do, but you're not angry at them, you're just so grieved for them because it's like you're made for his image, you're made for him, you're made to be love, and look what sin has done to you. It's tragic, and it's like it just makes you want to love them and not be angry. It's like I have a present and the things to come. It's like, you know, with Abraham and Sarah, it's, you know, when you look back in Genesis, you see nothing but you don't see faith or trustworthiness, you see lack of that. You know, it's like, you know, Sarah laughed at God's faith and called called him a liar to his face. It's like, I can't get pregnant. It's like you don't but when you look at them in the hall of faith post-cross in the New Testament, you just see their faith.

SPEAKER_02: 2:09:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 2:09:23

It's like that's what it's about. It's like I don't I don't remember who said this. I think it was a group or something, but it's like it's like I could, you know, sin and die, and it's like I could freaking be like, oh sorry, Lord, I didn't I didn't ask for Canada, but he's like, all he says is well done, good and faithful servant. Because he already took care of the sin problem. It's like for so long I thought I was just enslaved to sin for the rest of my life. I thought I was just doomed to Romans 7 and doomed to this life of just like enslavement and you know, do your best, good luck. And I thought I'd be defined by all this junk of the past, but it's just like blood speaks a better word, and it's like I'm not enslaved to any of that. I'm free and I'm whole, and I'm complete, and I lack nothing.

SPEAKER_01: 2:10:18

So we're uh gonna go back and talk to James after he gets if he's driving back crying. Just Ada Chipotle needs his mentor to come pick him up. I barely hit that Chipotle. If uh if you get to talk to this dude, what do you tell him?

SPEAKER_00: 2:10:39

Oh man. I think I just start by hugging him and just comforting him first. And just like, man, that that has nothing to do with who you are, bro. That is not who you are. And now just pour identity and truth over him. Like, you're in Christ, you're free from indebted to sin, you're free from indebted to that. That has nothing to do with who you are. They may have seen you like that, but the father doesn't. The father sees you as his beloved son. You don't have to listen to that, you don't have to carry that burden, you don't have to carry that shame, that is not who you are. You're a son of the Most High King. You're not who you are, what you've done.

SPEAKER_01: 2:11:17

James man. Uh there's I have this memory. I was in Colorado, uh, and I was attending a funeral, and we were driving back from the funeral. I was with my friends, the Banabes, and you called me, and I got on the phone and I was like, what's going on? And you were hurting, but you were super sincere. And I was just like, Yeah, this guy's gonna get it. And even in that conversation, like you were so sincere that you're like, okay, okay, okay, like, because you're you're you've always been seeing it. Have the habits automatically stopped? No, but I mean, they're on their way, uh they don't have much of a chance, like we're in this thing, like we're going after it. And so I've just seen your sincerity, and I think that comes from God, and I've seen your life change, and I see the excitement and your love for him, and I just praise God, man. You're a testimony to all of us.

SPEAKER_00: 2:12:20

Yeah, man, he's the gospel so much better than I ever thought it was, and he's so much more beautiful and amazing than I ever thought it was. You know, it's we thank so much that we're still this mentality of like we're still decrepit, wretched, sinful, and I have all this dick, and I have to deny the flesh, but I'm still this stop wearing that. Stop wearing that. That's not who you are. When you wear that, you believe that you're still gonna act and struggle with that stuff, and you still give a power that it doesn't have because the body of sin has been brought to nothing. Like he brought them out to open shame. He conquered it 2,000 years ago outside of Jerusalem. Let's go, dude. Dude, we're in the we're in the victory life, we're doing some victory number four. So much church in this mentality of like, I'm still sin. It's like you're not, bro. You're you're more than that. Stop wearing that. It's like we're so good at boasting in our ability to sin when we're supposed to be reckoning ourselves dead to it. Preaching, bro. You're not sin, you're more than that, church.

SPEAKER_01: 2:13:30

Let's go.

SPEAKER_00: 2:13:30

Wear your robe of righteousness proudly. You paid a high price for it. Wear that thing.

SPEAKER_01: 2:13:37

Thank you for sharing your story, bro. I appreciate you. Love you.

SPEAKER_00: 2:13:41

Yeah, bro.

SPEAKER_01: 2:13:42

Love you too, man.