Death to Life podcast
A podcast that tells the stories of people that used to be one way, and now are completely different, and the thing that happened in between was Jesus.
Death to Life podcast
#257 Tina Chan: From Refugee Roads To A Calmer Mind
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Tina Chan connects a refugee childhood, a high-pressure home, and traumatic births to the anxiety that later exploded into panic attacks. We talk through how therapy, practical tools, and a deeper view of God’s love shift fear into a steadier kind of freedom.
• escaping Vietnam and reaching a Thailand refugee camp through danger and scarcity
• early experiences of fear and hyper-independence in an immigrant household
• shyness, insecurity, and the pressure of family disapproval while dating Matthew
• premature births, NICU stress, and how trauma shapes a vigilant nervous system
• first panic attacks, emergency calls, and learning what panic actually is
• searching for relief through therapy, supplements, prayer, and cold grounding tools
• moving from shame-based faith to assurance through the gospel lens of God’s kindness
• defining freedom as living authentically before God and other people
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Why Transformation Stories Matter
SPEAKER_00The world doesn't think that the gospel can change your life, but we know that it can. And that's why we want you to hear these stories: stories of transformation, stories of freedom, people getting free from sin and healed from sin because of Jesus. This is death to life.
Meeting Tina Chan
SPEAKER_03And my mom was grabbing me and holding me, and my dad told her, walk across the bridge, you're not gonna get trampled on. And she's scared out of her life because you know, bullets are flying everywhere. Um, people were running under the bridge trying to get cover. And my dad made the decision: hey, we're not gonna get trampled with everybody else. Let's walk on the bridge and go across that way. And so obviously, the fear, you know, radiates from my mom and it radiates to me, even when I was an infant. And so I carry that fear with me from little till all the way through high school.
SPEAKER_00Yo, welcome to the Death to Life podcast. My name is Richard Young, I'm your host, and today's episode is with a really great friend of mine. I've actually been able to stay at her home, and she hosted me when I went out to Pasadena to do a sermon series a few years ago, and ever since then, we've been great friends. And uh the other day I was like, I really haven't heard your story, and she was like, say less. I'm gonna say the whole thing. No, actually, she was a little hesitant, but uh prayed about it, and I'm so excited to hear this story. So um, buckle up and strap in. This is Tina Chan. Love y'all, appreciate y'all. All right, Tina, I was in California just a few weeks ago, and I realized, you know, I've heard Matthew's story and love his story, but you and I have had conversations in the background. I remember uh when I was staying at your guys' house and we had these deep conversations about what we could and couldn't do and how we could spend money, and and I realized, man, I don't really know your whole spiritual background, and I wanted to hear because I like I've seen this journey that you've been on in the last few years. Uh so you tell me where where are we gonna start this journey? Where are we going?
SPEAKER_03Well, I'd like to introduce myself. Absolutely. My name is Tina, and first and foremost, I'm a believer of Jesus Christ. God has been so real in my life, and I would not be here if it weren't for him.
SPEAKER_02Oh wow.
Loss And A Mother’s Despair
SPEAKER_03Um, I'm married to Matthew Chan, the love of my life. We've been married for 22 years, and it's been a great journey. I'm a homeschool mother to three of my children, and they are one of life's greatest blessings. There are some challenges. We can talk about that later. And also, I am a daughter of immigrant parents, and with that, you know, there were lots of struggles being raised in an immigrant family coming to America. I think I want to say all those things to begin with because my story for the last 46 years of my life have moments of fear kind of embedded throughout those four things that I mentioned. And so f maybe we should start with how I was brought into this world.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. What what where where are your folks from? What country?
SPEAKER_03So originally we are from Vietnam. Our family, ethnically, we are Cambodian, but we were living in Vietnam at that time. And my parents, they really struggled. Um, when they first got married, they had a horrible accident. Their firstborn son, um, when he was two years old, died of a drowning accident.
SPEAKER_02Oh, man.
SPEAKER_03And my mom went through a lot during that time. She um got into a deep depression. Um, what happened was she was a new, let's say, okay, so my older brother was two years old. He had wandered off in the backyard, um, and he, while my mom was nursing her second born, my older sister, he had wandered off and ended up drowning in a very shallow pool of water. And you can imagine how horrific that was.
SPEAKER_01Mercy.
SPEAKER_03Um, I was born about two years after my older sister, and my mom told me that she had a lot of depression, sadness over the whole thing, a lot of guilt. And she actually wanted to kill herself. And she told me that one time she was standing on the bridge next to this river, and she just wanted to take her life. She was completely done. She was so upset with how things turned out. And um, I was only six months at that time. And looking back, she might have had, you know, hormonal issues after giving birth. Who knows?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, postpartum.
Escape From Vietnam Toward Thailand
SPEAKER_03The baby blues, postpartum. But something told her, you know, woke her out of that. And she told me that she decided not to kill herself that night because she couldn't bear to leave my sister and me with my dad and have me raised by my dad all alone. And so she made that decision, and thank God. Um after that, she decided that she didn't want to stay in Vietnam. So she um made the decision to leave. She wanted to forget about the horrors of losing her oldest oldest son. And so my mom and my dad decided to escape, a war-torn country. During that time in Cambodia, 1982. No, actually, it was 1979 when we left. I was six months old. Um, Cambodia was going through a terrible time, genocide. Uh, Pol Pot had killed two million Cambodians. Oh, wow. And if you listen to Matthew's story, he was a part of that. So at this time, the borders were open. Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand, all the borders were open. Thousands and hundreds of thousands of people were leaving. So Vietnam invaded Cambodia and actually um overthrew Pol Pot's regime. And so thankfully, um, the Cambodians who were in the concentration camps, they were able to be free. And a lot of them made their way to Thailand for safety. And at that time, my parents decided this is a great opportunity. Um, Vietnam is a communist country. There's no future for my daughters. Let's go make a new life and just leave this the sadness of losing their son and um wanting a new beginning. And so my parents sold everything they had, got rid of everything. Um, my dad carried what they he could, and my two-year-old sister and me and my mom made the trek from Vietnam all the way to the what is it called? Um, the refugee camp in Thailand. And that was quite a trip. God showed up in many ways. So if you think about it, the trip from Vietnam to Thailand, it's it was a very dangerous journey, but it was quite a distance. It was imagine um going from San Diego to San Francisco. It was a 500-mile trip. And they didn't have a car. Most of it was on foot, train, buffalo cart.
SPEAKER_00How old were you at this? You were two?
SPEAKER_03I was my sister was two, so she walked most of it. My dad carried what they had the little belongings that they had, he carried it. My mom carried me, six months old. And we made that trek together. And how many days did this take? Oh, that's a good question. I think a month. It took a month, but God showed up in so many different ways. And I'm a Christian today because my mom, she's so good at this. She kept retelling the stories of how we made it across to the border and the miracles along the way. Now, let me back up a little bit. My parents are not Christian. Um, they're actually Buddhists, they were raised Buddhist. And what little faith they had in, you know, a higher being was enough to get them through. And so they put their faith in their God and they made the trek. And God showed up. So um it was a very dangerous journey. Um, my parents didn't have much money. They there were robbers along the way. There was not a lot of um food or water along the way. There were moments where my sister and I were, well, I was nursing at the time, but my sister was very thirsty. And the only water my mom could find to feed her, to give her, was this pool of water that had dead buffaloes in them. And she had to like sanitize the water and drink the water. And so I'm a Christian today because those stories of God showing up and the big miracles along the way really, really impressed upon my heart. So um the journey was very dangerous. There were times when my mom wasn't producing enough milk because um there wasn't enough water that was. And, you know, it was kind of like first come, first serve. So my dad made the climb up to the top of the train real quick, and my sister followed him somehow. And my mom said that she had no choice but to throw her six-month baby up to the top of the train so my dad can catch me.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god.
Refugee Camp Miracles And Sponsorship
SPEAKER_03It's amazing because he caught me, thankfully, and um, we were able to get on the train to our next destination. And there was another story where um, you know, there were border checkpoints, border checkpoints where there were soldiers that were stationed to make sure only Cambodians leave to go to Thailand. So Thailand um was run, had these big um refugee camps run by the Red Cross and other countries. And Vietnamese people were not allowed in, and you need to show their your paperwork to get through the checkpoints. And my mom and dad were risking a lot, and they they weren't fitting in like more most of the Cambodians because they had certain clothes that looked very Vietnamese. But um it was a miracle because my dad he had the wherewithal to distract the um soldiers who were looking for our paperwork. He offered them um a lighter for their cigarette, and um they actually led us through and didn't even check our papers. And thankfully we got through and we made it to the Thailand refugee camp, and that's where my family was introduced to God. So all this time, my parents were raised Buddhists, you know, for thousands of generations, um, not knowing God at all. And it was in the refugee camp in Thailand that the love of God was experienced. And it's amazing because that time a lot of the Avenist doctors from Loma Linda volunteered. So word got out that you know, this whole mess came about, and all the doctors from the Avenist doctors from Loma Linda, they came over and volunteered their time there. I think it was like six months at a time, one year at a time. All these refugees were coming in, and um I remember my mom um telling me how she was dreaming one night at the refugee camp about this figure who was dressed in white, who had long hair, who looked like Jesus. At the time she didn't know it was Jesus. But she had this dream and she knew right away like this is an important dream and this means something. And eventually when she was introduced to God, she made the connection wow, that is Jesus Christ is God, and I am gonna worship him because my dream, like she never even imagined Jesus before, and she was able to put the two together. It was amazing. Um one day in the refugee camp, um, this stranger came up to my mom. She was um this lady who was telling her, You need to write a letter to this particular pastor. He's sponsoring families to America. And so my parents, we got to the refugee camp when I was around six months old, but we were in the refugee camps for two years, not knowing what would happen. So some families were being sent to Australia, some people were being sent to France, um, some families decided to go home back to Cambodia or back to Vietnam. But we waited it out. And some families were getting sponsored to America from their families. Like my aunt knew somebody in Colorado, so she got sponsored to go to Colorado. Um, my parents didn't know anyone in America. And so we just waited. Um, but one day this lady came up to my mom in the refugee camp and she said, You need to write a letter to this pastor in America. He's sponsoring families. And so quickly, my mom and dad wrote this letter, you know, describing their family, um, what they want to do with um life in America. Word gets back that they were open to um sponsoring my family to America.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_03And that was the greatest news, honestly, to go to America.
SPEAKER_00Who was this pastor?
SPEAKER_03He was an Avenist pastor from Loma Linda, California, a Vietnamese pastor. And so, once again, the love of God being shown through these kind people. So his church group decided to raise funds, okay, and sponsor our family to the United States. So imagine the joy when we arrived in America um seeing this new place. Um, they actually rented us a home in Lo Melinda, got us furniture, got us clothes, you know, set us up and prepared the whole place.
SPEAKER_02How old were you?
SPEAKER_03I was two. So in 1982, I made it to America, and um my parents were overjoyed.
SPEAKER_00They How long were you in Loma Linda in that area?
SPEAKER_03So I've been living in Loma Linda all my life until recently. We came to LA when Matthew got his calling to come to LA.
SPEAKER_00I was gonna say you made it to Loma Linda in 1982. I made it to Loma Linda in 1983 because that's the year I was born at the Loma Linda University Medical Center. We were we were near each other, we didn't know each other back then.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, how funny. But yeah, I was raised in Loma Linda, and I'm telling you, the people in Loma Linda t totally came through and helped our family.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_03Um, they set us up with everything, and they spent time not just providing for our um physical needs, they actually spent time um sharing the gospel with our family. They brought us to church, um, they got us enrolled in Pathfinders, eventually they took us to summer camp. I mean, paid for my family's way to go to Loma Linda Academy. There was no way my parents could afford Lomaland Academy. This sweet lady, she organized um monthly contributions, and people would pour in. A lot of the doctors in Loma Linda donated money so that my family can go to Lomalinda Academy. So God has always been in my life, and you know, it's reminds me of the story of um when the Israelites left Egypt and the miracles that God performed over and over and over and over. There's no way you can't be a believer. And raised growing up, my mom always talked about the miracles, you know, God leading the way to come to America. So that's kind of how my life started.
A New Life In Loma Linda
SPEAKER_00That's so beautiful. And I think that like when you have that upbringing and you have that story, it's it's kind of just built in that God is is beautiful in his love because of all these miracles. And then, you know, maybe as later generations is like, if not you, you'll always remember that, but maybe your kids, your grandkids, and they're living here, and they don't like my the stories of my family coming to the United States are similar, but I didn't have that story. I I grew up, I was born in Loma Linda. Um, and so but that's beautiful because you've always had this. No, God loves me, he brought my family here. That's yeah, that's such a beautiful thing.
SPEAKER_03Definitely, and we tell the kids all the time, but they've never experienced it. We remind them and we celebrate, like on February 22nd, 2022, it was the 40th anniversary of the day my family arrived in the USA. It was special because it was two, two, two, two, two. And, you know, it was a constant reminder like to my kids, we need to spend time just remembering how good God is bringing us here to the U.S. And that's why I love this country so much. This country has done so much for my family, and I will always be grateful for the opportunities that America has to offer.
SPEAKER_00That's awesome. So you grew up in Loma Linda, you grew up, your parents became Christians, they become Adventists, or were they still Buddhists? Yeah.
Childhood Fear And Hyper Independence
SPEAKER_03Immediately. Um the church invited us to go to the worship services. My parents um had baptismal classes, they accepted Jesus Christ, and they've been Adventists all their life. Um, since that moment. And honestly, it was easy. The transition to be a Christian was so easy because they saw the love of God through all of the people that came together. And I'm telling you, it wasn't just the Vietnamese church. There were so many wonderful, loving Christians in the area. I can name them right now. They were all doctors. They were busy, but they spent time with us. Um, Dr. Um Eller, Dr. Dysinger, Dr. Moncrief, um, they just came together and like introduced us to America. They invited us to their Thanksgiving um dinners, um, Christmas programs. And I it wouldn't it my parents naturally became Aventists because of them. And my view of Aventism was it was very um positive because everyone just showered love on our family. Yeah, yeah, it's wonderful. But I I think I need to point out that um there was a lot of fear growing up. Um I think my mom she was going through a lot um dealing with the depression, and I don't know if I had a lot of um attention from her growing up. And as a child, I felt almost neglected, unfortunately. She eventually had a total of five kids, and my mom and my dad got super busy with working and providing for the family. And so we didn't live in the ideal situation. After we moved out of Loma Linda, um, my parents started working and providing for themselves, and they got super busy. They were working seven days a week.
SPEAKER_00Um What were they doing?
SPEAKER_03So at the beginning, my parents actually went back to school. So imagine at age 30 something, learning the language over again. My dad and my mom got their associates degree at a community college, and I'm so proud of them for doing that. It's not easy. Um, my dad became a machine operator, so he worked in a factory. Growing up, he made um oxygen tanks. He worked in the factory. And then on his day, so he would work overtime on Sabbath, do the swing shift after church, and then Sunday morning he would cut my friend's lawn. And so that was like a seven-day week, he constantly worked. My mom worked at a school as a language tutor, and five days a week she would do that. In the evenings, she would actually work three hours at the doctor's office translating. And so she was constantly busy. She had weekends off, except for Sundays. She went with my dad to cut grass with him.
SPEAKER_00She had weekends off, which means like three hours.
SPEAKER_03I know. They worked so hard to provide. I that that was their mentality, you know, to provide for the family. And my sister and I, we were the oldest, we took care of the younger ones. It was kind of um upset that we had to take care of the kids. And we happily did so. But it was a lot. And so growing up, um, there was a lot of fear because I grew up in a very um, it was a very harsh environment. I don't know how to explain this.
SPEAKER_00Was it like fear of life or fear of the life? No, no, no.
SPEAKER_03Hygiene was not like on the top of priority list for my mom and my dad. Okay. So we had rats living with us. We had cockroaches living with us, we had stray cats living with us in the house. And so there were moments where I'd come home from being out and I would see these critters, you know. My dad would just come into the house and just like try to kill the cockroaches with his bare hands. But to them, it was like normal. But to me, I was terrified, constantly terrified. There was a moment I remember trying to go to bed one night, and um my parents were in the shack in the back of the house. And actually, they had oh my god, how do I explain this? They had a sweatshop in the back of our house. Okay, so when I say they worked hard, they worked eight days a week. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00What were they making back there? Like Nikes?
SPEAKER_03They had like sewing machines back there, and my mom would make um clothing items, and she would get paid to make clothes for like Walmart or Target. And every so often I would go there and help her, and that's how I actually learned how to sew. But I remember one night I decided to go to bed early, and the whole family stayed in the shed in the back. And I must have been like around six or seven. Decided to go to bed, went to my parents' bed and tried to close my eyes and go to sleep. But in the middle of the night, I saw two little eyes poking out at me, and I realized it was a cat inside. And to this day, I'm terrified of cats. But like I would scream, I would scream at the top of my lungs, asking my mom to come help me. But she wasn't there, she couldn't hear me. She was in the back of the shed working really hard.
SPEAKER_00You so you have a fear of cats now.
SPEAKER_03I do have a fear of cats. I know you have an allergy to cats.
SPEAKER_00I actually have Yeah, like I was really happy that I could stay at your house that time because you didn't have cats because yet they they no, that's nightmare fuel. You're growing up and you get freaked out like that.
SPEAKER_03And so I think at that, you know, talking to my therapist, I've been in therapy before, and that moment as a child, to know that you're so scared, but no one's coming to help you.
SPEAKER_01Oh no.
SPEAKER_03And that you're dealing with fear all by yourself, that does something to you.
SPEAKER_00Sure does.
SPEAKER_03It really, really does. And so I think after that, I learned to just take care of myself. That mom and dad are super busy. They're not here to take care of you and your feelings and your emotions. You gotta act tough, brave the world all by yourself, and just go through life.
SPEAKER_00Does that mean like you you would suppress feelings and like not want to have them or deal with them?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, a little bit. Um, I had to have that brave face, um, take care of my siblings, change diapers, wash dishes, take care of the house, have everything in order. And on top of that, my dad, he was a scary dad. He the the kids were in shape because dad was very scary. And so when he came home from work at 11 o'clock at night after doing the swing shift, if the house wasn't clean, if the dishes weren't done, oh, we'd be so scared. There was no physical abuse going on, but the look on my dad's face um terrified me especially. And so maybe I should confess to you right now, you know, confession is good for the soul. I'm an introvert, and I'm not just an introvert, but I'm a super shy introvert. And if you know anything about shy people, um, you know, it could be genetics, it could be environment, but I really struggled all my life with being shy. I think the statistic is like 20% of people um deal with being shy. And I don't know if it's my environment, the way I was raised, or just the DNA in my body that tells me I'm shy. But I struggle with that, and you know, all that led up to what I'm dealing with right now is generalized anxiety disorder. And so there are moments in my life where fear just kept creeping up, creeping up, creeping up. Um, I remember in third grade I couldn't speak up for myself. Someone stole the dollar from me and I confronted this girl, and she denied the whole thing. And I remember threatening, you know, I'm gonna go tell the teacher. I'm gonna go tell the teacher, and I knew she had it, but um, I couldn't speak up once again. I was so disappointed in myself. Like I really wanted to speak up and get her in trouble, but I chose not to. And then fast forward to high school, um I got voted quietest girl in ninth grade.
SPEAKER_00Quietest girl in the ninth grade.
Shyness And Dating Under Disapproval
SPEAKER_03Quietest girl in ninth grade. And I guess I was just very uncomfortable, very awkward growing up. I don't know what it was, but you know what? I was you don't have that problem, right?
SPEAKER_00No, I didn't uh I didn't have that problem. But I I learned a while back that when we look at our situation and sometimes we think, why is this happening? Like, as you explain all of this, and then you say, Well, yeah, I I had some fear, it doesn't seem to you like it would make perfect sense. Just hearing the first few bits of your story, of course, it would make perfect sense if you had this kind of fear. And like your your dad, like he's surviving, he's doing everything he can to survive. Your mom is surviving, like everything is a miracle, like God has brought you through this, but it's it's like, and now we're gonna work, and and then there's this fear. Why wouldn't that manifest itself in some kind of anxiety? Like, I would think it would be strange if you if you didn't experience some of that stuff, and if you didn't experience that, don't you think? Like, it wouldn't be like, oh, why is this happening? It would be stranger if it didn't happen.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you're right. Um, I'm just reminded of a story my my dad told us of us, you know, crossing from Vietnam to Thailand. There was a moment where my dad and my mom had to make the decision of walking across a bridge versus getting trampled with everyone else down below because the soldiers were shooting their guns in the air, and my mom was grabbing me and holding me. And my dad told her, walk across the bridge, you're not gonna get trampled on. And she's scared out of her life because you know, bullets are flying everywhere. Um, people were running under the bridge trying to get cover. And my dad made the decision: hey, we're not gonna get trampled with everybody else. Let's walk on the bridge and go across that way. And so obviously, the fear, you know, radiates from my mom and it radiates to me, even when I was an infant. And so I carried that fear with me from little till all the way through high school. And then something interesting happened in high school where I got tired of not speaking up, being quiet all the time, that I decided to um senior year try out to be part of the drama club. Um, I wanted to push myself, I wanted to see if I can get out of my comfort zone. I was tired of being called the quiet girl. And I enjoyed, you know, theater, I enjoyed stories, I enjoyed movies, and so I did that and I was so proud of myself. Um it was an awesome experience. And I thought I had overcome my shyness until I met Matthew Chan. So the summer of my senior year, um Matthew and I got together. Um we we knew each other since we were little. My husband and I grew up kind of um since we were five or six years old, we knew each other from church. Our churches would get together periodically, but we really never talked until that summer. And he, you know, he's a great guy and all, but I was not expecting that his family would be totally against us dating.
SPEAKER_00Oh no.
SPEAKER_03So all of my uh insecurities started to come up again, right? So we started dating when I was 17, just started college, and for seven years we dated, and I felt very, very inadequate as a person because his mom made it clear that she did not approve of me. So every time we got together at his house, I would literally like sit on the couch and cower in fear because mom did not approve. And dad did not approve. And dad actually he didn't even talk to me for seven years, and we had a lot of.
SPEAKER_00If dad didn't speak to you for seven years, yeah.
SPEAKER_03He was avoiding a cultural thing, it could be, or it's a Chan thing.
SPEAKER_00It is a cultural, it's a Chan cultural mercy.
SPEAKER_03But he meant well, he he didn't know how to deal with dating in America because hit his relationship with his wife, it was arranged. And so here comes Matthew and his girlfriend, they didn't know how to deal with that.
SPEAKER_00And we're like, we didn't arrange this.
SPEAKER_03No, they didn't. What are kids doing together at this age?
SPEAKER_00They need to be like uh Hiddler on the Roof.
SPEAKER_03Oh, I've never seen it.
SPEAKER_00I don't know if well, the whole thing is uh that there's these arranged marriages, and then the first couple, the the oldest daughter, she is promised to this older guy, but then she gets with this guy that she's actually in love with, and it throws like that's the beginning of the plot that makes everything crazy. Like, what? She's marrying for love rather than like for the dowry and all this other stuff. So that's that's it was tough.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it was tough. Um, we got through it because Matthew had to go through his experiences deciding if he wanted to get married with me at 24. His parents wanted him to finish medical school. But after seven years of dating, and I was always already working as a teacher, I felt it was time. And so I put the pressure on him. I did. And he had to actually go see a therapist to work his feelings out. Does he please his mom or does he please me? Well, he decided to choose himself, actually. And he decided, you know what? What I really want to do is get married. And so he proposed. I was shocked because I honestly thought we would not be together. I decided that if Matthew Chan picked his mom over me, then he definitely is not my husband.
SPEAKER_00And so I think I think if he would have done that, I think that would have been the wisdom. I think it'd be like, yeah, God bless you, Matthew.
SPEAKER_03But uh Yeah, so he was brave enough to pick his own feelings and what he wanted, and he decided to propose to me. And we were engaged for nine months, and during that time, you know, we were begging his parents to please come to the wedding. They, his mom's especially, was so against it.
SPEAKER_00She was there a reason, was there rationale? Was it they just didn't like your hair color, or was it like something about you that they or it was what what was yeah?
SPEAKER_03No, looking back, she had her reasons. Um, number one, her main complaint about me was I wasn't Cambodian enough. I'm a very Americanized Cambodian. Matthew Chan is very Americanized too, so it doesn't make any sense, right?
SPEAKER_00What would make you more Cambodian and let like is it like your the way you speak or like culturally when you greet an elder, you have to put your hands together and say, Jimmy Sua, you bow down.
SPEAKER_03Well, I didn't grow up doing that, and so I had to teach myself to do that. Um so just the Cambodian cultural stuff I wasn't trained in, so I forget to greet her properly. Um he was the youngest of four boys, and you know, in their culture, you don't marry out of order. The youngest doesn't marry before the oldest. And so he wanted to get married. We were 24 at the time, and I was already working as a school teacher. She was hesitant about having me work while he was in medical school, which is understandable.
SPEAKER_02Sure.
SPEAKER_03Um, so yeah, there were a lot of reasons, it made sense to her. Um but what I think the hardest part was just not being good enough from Matthew Chan. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That'll do something to you for sure. So was the wedding day like um just tension?
Premature Births And NICU Trauma
SPEAKER_03So thankfully, a month before we got married, she agreed to come to the wedding on one condition if we apologize. And so we did. We went over there and apologized for whatever it is. We're sorry for falling in love and wanting to be disrespectful, not honoring them, whatever it was. So thankfully she she did show up to the wedding. She was very happy that day. She'd made the effort to be very happy. But it was um quite a roller coaster after that. Um I'm so glad everything's great now. Um it took many, many years. I've forgiven her completely. Um she is such a great um grandmother to my children now, and so we've made amends. She honestly, she never said anything um directly to me personally about my character. It was always behind my back, but I understand it was her baby, so but it affected me. But it affected me a lot with my confidence.
SPEAKER_00Certainly.
SPEAKER_03So fear, another aspect of my life's journey was fear, and um after that, um, we started a family when I was 29. And you know, motherhood takes you to a whole nother level. Um, my birthing stories um were very traumatic. I have three wonderful healthy kids, but they were all premature. And so the first my daughter, she was born uh five weeks early with breach. So we had an emergency C section. And then my second was born six weeks early, and he actually was the healthier one of all three. He came out five pounds, one ounce, and I was able to take him home like three days after I delivered. But that was another unexpected birth. And then with my last, my third son, he was born three months premature.
SPEAKER_00Three months. So imagine how much did he weigh?
SPEAKER_03He was only two pounds. It was mercy.
SPEAKER_00You probably hold him in your palm or something like that. Oh mercy.
SPEAKER_03So we knew that he I was at risk because I was around 38 years old, and that's advanced maternal age. Was it 38? I'm thinking maybe 36, 37, something like that. And we knew with the previous births, since they were premature, the likelihood of him being premature was very high.
SPEAKER_00Um but he came early and thankfully when he's at when it's six months in and you said he he came out six months. When you started going into labor, eight weeks were you just like like freaking out.
SPEAKER_03So yeah, what happened was I was taking a walk at the mall and the contraction started after that. I think I was exerting myself too much. Maybe I should have been on bed rest. But I was actually in labor for two full weeks. So I was in and out of the hospital in so much pain. Um trying to keep this little guy inside of me. It was horrible. And I remember um a couple days before he was born, the doctor put me on this horrible medication. I think it was called MAG. And it was this medication that reduced the contractions. And so I was in the hospital in so much pain, and they had pumped all this mag inside of me, and it worked. For two days, I was in the hospital and my contractions um slowed down, completely ended. No more contractions. And so I felt like, okay, I'm ready to go home. Well, when I got home, the contraction started up again. This kid did not want to stay inside of me. And so later that day, it was very traumatic because um Matthew was not around when I um called him. He had dropped my kids off at my mom's house since I was in the hospital, and he went to pick them up. And I told him, Yeah, the contractions are starting up again, and I didn't want to go back to the hospital because I did not want to be on that medication. But he, of course, um said, No, you need to go. So we I got in the car, picked me up, and we drove to the hospital. And literally, by the time I got to the hospital, I was already like eight centimeters dilated. That baby could have came anytime. But they had me on the operating table in like 30 minutes. Those nurses worked so hard. And we had another c-section because, you know, we didn't want to risk having a V back, which is like a vaginal birth after all the other C-sections.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like once you have a C-section, isn't aren't the rest of them supposed to be C-sections?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so there's a higher risk. So we decided just to do the C-section. And he came out dead. This little kid at 28 weeks, um, emergency C-section, he was not breathing when he came out. He was born dead, literally. And I was actually knocked out. They put me under. Um, so I didn't see his birth or experience his birth. But Matthew, they wouldn't even let him in. He was in the other room observing when Isaac came out. And he saw the whole thing where the nurse was res resuscitating him. They put a bag over his face and pumped life into him, and he came to life. That little kid, he his lungs started working, he started breathing, started crying, and it was a miracle, praise the Lord.
SPEAKER_00How long was he in the hospital after that?
SPEAKER_03Two full months. Yeah. And so I remember waking up after being under anesthesia, and Matthew was right by my side, and I remember just crying, crying. And the first words I said to him, I am so sorry, I could not keep him in longer. I was so sad about that.
SPEAKER_00How sweet is that? Like you had you shouldn't have been walking in the mall. You shouldn't just stay in your bed and then stay in bed. Watch watch game shows. That would have been the move.
First Panic Attacks And ER Visits
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I felt like I let him down. But thankfully, he was the healthiest baby in the Nick U. Isaac. I mean, if you know him today, you know, he's a fighter. He came out fighting, and his personality got him through that experience because he was breathing on his own. The only thing he needed was a feeding tube. And the rest he did on his own. He grew on his own. He didn't need me, apparently. But fear again crept in because imagine being a mom to this preemie. Okay. There were moments where his body would just go limp. Like I remember feeding him in the Nick U, trying to nurse him, and all of a sudden he would turn blue, and then his body would just go limp. And then I'd freak out, and I'd put him on my shoulder and like pat his back trying to get him to wake up. And he would wake up and breathe. Thank God. But I think what happened that day was, you know, that experience actually made me put me in a fight or flight response. For the last 10 years I've been dealing with anxiety. I think what happened was maybe the, you know, the ball that you you always talk about, the ball that's pushed down in the water. It was getting pushed down deeper and deeper and deeper. Or the rubber band, you know, it gets pulled back too far. It's gonna snap one day. And so all these experiences, all these moments of fear in my life. I actually had my first panic attack when I was one year after Isaac was born. Actually, that was when it happened.
SPEAKER_00Did you think you were having a heart attack, or did you even know what was going on?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so um, it was a Sunday morning. My I told my husband I wasn't feeling well, I just wanted to rest. And I have, you know, a stay-at-home mom, three beautiful, wonderful, rambunctious kids. You know, it wore me out. They were young. And plus, I wasn't sleeping. My daughter, ever since I had my daughter, I had them back to back kind of. I wasn't sleeping through night trying to raise these babies. And so, not having sleep, not taking care of yourself. I had my first panic attack when my youngest was one year old. It was a Sunday morning. I told my husband, I don't feel so good. I just want to rest. Can you take the kids to the museum and just hang out with them? And so he took the three kids to the museum and hung out with them. And all of a sudden, alone in my bedroom, I had my first panic attack. My mind was racing, like literally, I could feel the world spinning. It was so bizarre. My heart started racing. Like I felt like I literally was about to die. I didn't know what was going on. And I thought that it was like a childhood heart problem because when I was little, I used to have these heart murmurs. And my mom told me that I was going to have heart surgery when I was five, but I outgrew the heart murmurs, and so I didn't need to do heart surgery. So I was thinking to myself, maybe, you know, my heart's acting up right now because of that. Little did I know it was a panic attack. I didn't even know what that was. But I called Matthew, he said, call 911. And so I called 911. I was able to open the front door, unlock the front door, and I went back to bed. And um, I called 911, they showed up in my bedroom. I woke up and I saw 10 firefighters in my bedroom. I was thinking to myself, is this a dream? Oh my God, what are you guys doing here? But they checked me out, they checked my heart, everything was fine, everything was normal. And then they left. And then later that night, I had another panic attack.
SPEAKER_00What was do you know what was triggering these panic attacks?
SPEAKER_03I think my body just gave up. I think the fear. Okay, so what happened was my husband decided to take the kids to my mom's house so that I can rest since I just had a panic attack, but we didn't know it was a panic attack. And then I was thinking and thinking about their well-being. I be I had become this very hyper-vigilant mom, especially when your children are about to die because they were premature kids, that you know, I was worrying so much about them, and I hardly ever had my kids spend the night at their grandparents' house. And so I had another panic attack that same day. And I told Matthew, my heart's acting up again. Let's go to the hospital. So he drove me to the hospital, and this is Matthew's. He's so silly. He doesn't even know that I'm having a panic attack. He literally thinks my heart's acting up and that I'm about to die. Yeah. Well, we've learned he just loves you. Yeah. So he's driving me to the ER. They get me tested for everything. Like they put the heart monitor on. Everything, you know, looks normal because by then I'm calm again. And then the doctor tells me, maybe you just need a Xanax. Maybe you'll calm down after that. And so I'm like, okay, well, I have nothing to lose. I'll take a Xanax. And so I was able to sleep that night at the hospital, and they did more work up, everything worked out fine. But there's a lot there. I don't know where you want to go with this, but the last 10 years I've been dealing with a lot of dealing with this.
SPEAKER_00When like how did God intersect with any of this? Like, would you pray and ask him, like, take this away from me? Like, how would what did you think his responsibility was in this, and how did you interact with him in that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I tend to take care of things on my own. And so I was battling anxiety on my own. I tried everything under the stars. I tried yoga, I tried essential oils, I tried acupuncture. Name it, I tried it. And then I even one day tried going to see the psychologist. I was at my wits' end and I thought to myself, maybe I should just get on medication. Because every doctor I talk to, you know, they diagnose me with generalized anxiety disorder. And all they want to do is drug me up. And I've been saying, no, no, no, no, no. But I got to the point where I was so tired of fighting this battle with anxiety that I actually met with a psychiatrist and I was contemplating getting on medication, antidepressants, because that's supposed to help with anxiety. And so I was finding all these ways to deal with my anxiety. Um I got the prescription for the medication. I took one day's worth of antidepressants, and I quit. I didn't want to go on medication. I wanted to figure this out on my own. And I don't know if you are familiar with anxiety. A lot of people might be able to relate, but it's this horrible feeling you have 24-7. You feel like you're watching a horror movie, and the bad guy is about to come out around the corner, about to scare you. And that's how you feel. You're on edge every minute of the day, every day. And so I was dealing with anxiety, you know, just you know, the term high strung, that was me. I was totally high strung all the time. My shoulders could never relax, my stomach always in knots, and I develop all these health problems. Um I get feeling.
Therapy Tools Prayer And Cold Relief
SPEAKER_00Um it should. But if you're in the woods and there is no tiger, or if you're in the street, or if you're in your house and you're constantly thinking there's a tiger and there is no tiger, like your body can never come down from that. It's pumping the cortisol into your bloodstream, and you're just like, you're at that state, and that will you'll get wasted, you'll get so tired.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And it sounds like is that kind of what you would describe what was happening? You were constantly living in fear of the thing, whether if it was your kids or your whatever, um, even when nothing was going on, you were living in that fear.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I think what happened was I got stuck in that fight-flight mode, and I could not break free from that. Um I think I'm a lot better now. So two years ago, actually, no, it wasn't two years ago. Last year, I went to see the I went to see a therapist, and I was ready to actually face the reasons why I was so fearful all the time. And that was very helpful. So I was at an eight or nine walking into the therapist. You know, if you talk about the levels of anxiety, like 10 would be extreme. Like every day for me was at an eight or nine. Ten would be really bad panic attack. Um after therapy, after a year of therapy, I think I walked out of there at a five. So it actually helped me tremendously being able to process why I was anxious, why I'm fearful, the roots of where this fear came from. And then my friend told me about her naturopathic doctor. And I've never seen a naturopathic doctor before. Um, I decided to see her, and she gave me all these supplements, a lot of amino acids, vitamins, um, herbs that I've been taking daily for the last I want to say four or five months. That helped me tremendously. So I felt like now I'm at a four or five. So it's getting better. And of course, God's always been through. I mean, I always felt like God's presence was always with me during this time. He's just like when you reached out to me two weeks ago about doing the podcast, um, it struck big fear in my heart again. I can't do this. I can't do that. This is really like even now, I'm like really nervous. But I decided to do it. Instead of overthinking about it, I said yes. And I felt like it was time to tell my story. But I was still struggling with anxiety. Um three days after you asked me to do the um podcast, I prayed a prayer to God. I said, God, I am so tired of fighting this anxiety. Um could you take it away? Because you promised in your word that you will take it away. We you won't give us anything that we can't bear. And so I said, God, I think I'm at my the end of my rope. I can't bear it anymore. I'm really exhausted, I can't bear it anymore. And so the last week and a half, I've been having a lot of peace after that prayer. And this thought came to me about um have you heard of cold plunges?
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, cold plunges. Well, I have my own version that um I came up with um a week and a half ago that's really been helpful. Um I have an ice pack that I keep with me throughout the day, and it's such an awesome little thing that I can do if I ever feel anxious. I hold on to that ice pack or put it on my face or on my neck or my back. And it's like my version of a cold plunge, and there's so many benefits to a cold plunge, and that's actually helped me tremendously. And so now I'm actually at a two or three. We'll see how I feel later, but my anxiety is so much better, and I praise God for that because of that prayer I prayed to him about you know, I can't bear this anymore. And maybe I'm supposed to live my whole life with anxiety. It's kind of like Paul. Like Paul, he has that thorn in his flesh, right?
SPEAKER_00His thorn in his flesh was that he's getting beat up.
SPEAKER_03I'm getting beat up.
SPEAKER_00You don't have to live with anxiety.
SPEAKER_03Now maybe it could be my superpower because in my weakness, right? It's his strength.
Gospel Lens Against Shame And Fear
SPEAKER_00But here's here's the beautiful thing about it is that as we're growing and we're growing and we're understanding like everything, we know that we have every spiritual blessing in Christ. We know that, and yet there's things that we have suppressed that because we don't want to deal with them, they're very difficult. Like just stuff comes to me all of the time that I have suppressed that I've hidden because I did not like, and then life has its way of just like these. Like, I was uh I'll give you an example. I when I was a little kid, I got made fun of. Um when I was uh changing. We were at the pool and I was changing, I was in the stall, and some kids kicked in the stall, and then they started making fun of me. And I'm like this little kid. It it was traumatic for me. Okay, I never told anybody about it. I was just I went home and I was, and then from then on, every time I'm in a stall, I would freak out about it being locked, and I would like check a bunch of times, and like I would be very nervous, like it airports, like I'm in the bathroom and I'm looking and I'm thinking, like, why? Why is this going on? Well, because when I was a little kid, that thing happened and I just suppressed it, I didn't want to deal with it. And then as you realize, like God reveals these things, or life reveals them. You can say, God, life, it's you know, it just reveals like something's going on, and it could be anything, like you could hear about somebody having a premature child, and you can have that same feeling because it's there, and what we get to do is we get to ask ourselves, like, when when the Bible says we take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, meaning, like, we don't have to end our thoughts with a period, we can end them with a question mark. So, like, I I I have I've been anxious during meetings so for so many years, because when I was at a previous job, the meetings were terrible, and my boss would would like yell at me in front of the whole team, and so because of that, I've been anxious in meetings. Now, if I'm feeling anxious in a meeting, I I ask myself, like, what is the thought that I'm thinking right now that's leading me to have this feeling right now? And it could be like, I'm afraid that I'm less than, or I'm afraid that I'll be exposed as a fraud, or I'm afraid, you know, and like just these thoughts were there, they're not like formulated, it's just like the feeling. And so now I just ask myself, is that true? Am I a fraud? No. Am I going to be exposed? No. How does it feel like when I believe that? Well, it feels like this, this, and this. What would it feel like if I didn't believe those thoughts? Freedom. It would be freedom. And so I I've learned how to do this, and so many of these chains that I've had that have even manifested itself in like ADHD symptoms, because when you're in a meeting and you're checking out because you're afraid, it looks like you're not paying attention. As I'm taking them captive to the obedience of Christ, as I'm as I understand that I'm not my thoughts, thoughts are just things that my mind offer me. I don't have to take each one of them so personally. There's freedom there. But I've but I've grown in this. And so, in the same way, you know, as you understand, like your mind is offering you thoughts, and there are thoughts that you got put in there from when the cat scared you, or when like the fear that your mom had, or the depression that she had, like that made an impact on you. But guess what? It doesn't have to keep moving forward, and we get to practice changing the way we think. That's what Paul teaches us to not be conformed to the world, but be transformed by that by the renewing of our mind. And that's what you get to do. And so by his stripes, you are healed, Tina. Like you are healed. And if you're like, Well, I'm not experiencing it, hey, let's you are healed. Let's keep learning about how healed, how much healing you've been given in Jesus. And so there's no there's no condemnation, there's no pressure. You just get to learn and grow. And so if you say, Oh, maybe I'm supposed to be anxious for the rest of my life, no, but you can have compassion for yourself. Yeah, you can have compassion for yourself and and and continue to to grow because you know that Jesus has He has set you free. Is that is that all right?
SPEAKER_03No, thank you. Yeah, fear does not have power in the sight of Jesus. I think it's important that I, you know, this was an exercise my therapist had me go through. All those moments that I remember growing up in fear, like actually enter into those moments and comfort that little girl and actually tell her it's okay. And so now, you know, I can enter into those moments and just quiet that girl's fear. And that's been so helpful. And in the future, now when I do get scared or get fearful or get afraid, I actually let myself feel it and that it's okay to be scared.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I think growing up, I had to put on the brave face, be an adult when I was still a child, you know, with all the responsibility.
SPEAKER_00You were pushing the beach ball down as far as it could go.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And so I have to tell myself it's okay to be scared of this because hey, it is scary and you're gonna get through it, you're gonna do it because life I'm life is lifing. You have to live, you cannot hide and put yourself under, you know, get inside your shell all the time.
SPEAKER_00This is what's so beautiful about like you can be afraid. You the problem is when you're afraid of being afraid. Because then we're suppressing it, we're not even dealing it. But if the fear comes up, like I've seen you as a mother, you're a wonderful, loving, caring mother. And for you to go and like, I'm just gonna keep bringing up that cat because they're the worst. Like to go and comfort that little girl, like you would comfort your kids now. Yeah, like you get to do that and be patient with yourself and compassionate with yourself, and then you can like let that go and just be like, that sweet girl. She, you know, she she wanted her parents to comfort her. Her parents, they were killing it over here, they were trying doing their best to be able to keep you with a roof over your head, so they weren't able to be there. Yeah, and you can have compassion for that young girl and no no frustration with yourself or anything like that, it's just ministering to yourself.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I think the last three years I've been on a an amazing journey getting to know the character of God. See three years ago you came to our church and you stayed at our house and you introduced us to what I call the true gospel. You know, even though I was raised Adventist, there are certain things that I grew up terrified of. You know, I was taught that during the investigative judgment, if you still have sin that you haven't confessed, if God's opening the books and he sees your name and there's a sin that you haven't confessed, that you can't be saved. That's what I was thinking. And three years ago when you came, it was a beautiful time of just realizing the character of God that God doesn't come to destroy, kill. He loves, and I think that fear stands no chance in the presence of God's love. And I remind myself that every single day. And it's been such a beautiful journey getting to know God more in a different way than how I was raised, knowing God.
SPEAKER_00That that week when I was at your house. I think it's it's a highlight of my life. Like, seriously, it was my first time ever doing life changing for us. It was my first time doing one of these by myself, and I didn't want to stay at your house because I didn't know you.
SPEAKER_03And then um and I didn't want to go at my house because I didn't know you either.
SPEAKER_00And then I get through your house and I'm like, oh, I think I'm gonna be all right. I think this is gonna be just fine. Um, because it's so beautiful.
SPEAKER_03And yeah, I don't know if you realize we didn't go to your meetings the first few nights.
SPEAKER_00Well, because you were out of town.
SPEAKER_03We were out of town, I think, Friday. We met you on Saturday, and then Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, we made every excuse in the book not to go to the meetings, but we listened to you online. Okay, told.
SPEAKER_00We were all hanging out, just talking, and it was like from my vantage point, it was so much fun. And Matthew and I were going, and I and you would sit on the couch, and I knew you were listening a little bit, but I didn't know like what you were going through. So I was kind of doing some like, I hope she's catching what I'm laying down. And then with Matthew, is you know, anytime we get to go over these things is just fun for me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it was so fun.
SPEAKER_00But you guys weren't feeling it for the first couple nights.
SPEAKER_03No, I you know, we have busy lives and we weren't motivated to go because I thought it was just another regular speaker. You know, there was nothing that you know, the flyer that came out. I was not really impressed with that. I'm like, oh, there's nothing here. So I didn't know.
SPEAKER_00That was a Photoshop of me on somebody else's suit because they wanted me to be in a suit.
SPEAKER_03Who's gonna preach down to us again? I'm like, oh, okay.
SPEAKER_00And I was like, I had to buy a suit to go to because I didn't have like my COVID weight. My COVID weight had uh like I was out of all the other clothes, and so and then I was like, Do I have to wear I asked Byron, do I have to wear a suit these other nights? He was like, Yeah, it might be a good idea. And I was like, I'm not, I'm gonna wear a polo shirt. Maybe that was but you you guys like, oh, another week of prayer, we're good.
SPEAKER_03Another week of prayer. We've heard it all before. We made every excuse not to go, but every night when you came home from preaching and you would share these, you know, we would actually listen to the talks online, and then Matthew and you would would argue, discuss, going back and forth. And then I think the thing that started to click in my brain was when you talked about first Adam and second Adam in Romans, that's what did it for me. And that's why the next evening we were there. I was like, this guy is teaching something I've never thought about before, heard about before. How can you be dead to sin? First Adam's really, really dead. Wow. So we went and then I started inviting my friends to come. And then Sabbath morning, you preach this sermon about how God doesn't use guilt, shame, condemnation to woo you back, right? He doesn't have to, it's his kindness, it's his goodness that leads people to repentance. And I it just really opened my eyes to what a loving father we have. And I remember greeting you at the end of the sermon, and I said these words to you. I don't know if you remember, I said, Richard, I feel like a butterfly. Like I literally felt set free that weekend. It was amazing. And so it's been such an awesome journey going through the Bible now that I have this new lens and reading the Bible with my kids. Like every story in the Bible has Jesus in it, and that God is love. And for example, like I'll read the story of Adam and Eve a different way now, Noah's Ark. Everything's so different now once you have that new lens.
SPEAKER_00So you had fear of like you didn't have assurance of salvation.
SPEAKER_03Well, I never did, honestly, because going back to that whole investigative judgment thing, um I remember when I was 17, I did something and I had to let me go back. Um when I was 17, I worked part-time at this nursing home and I was making phone calls to this boy in San Diego, San Pascual Academy. Okay.
SPEAKER_00From the nursing home?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So after work, I was working in the nursing home feeding um um retirement people. And before my mom picked me up, I would spend like 30 minutes on the phone calling someone in San Diego. And at the end of the month, the bill went, the bill showed up, and the lady at the front desk came up to me and asked me, Do you know who's been calling this number? It's long distance. And they racked up$200 worth of phone bills.
SPEAKER_00You're like, it's that old guy. He must have a girlfriend in uh San Diego.
SPEAKER_03I lied through my teeth. I said, No, that wasn't me. I don't know who that is. She obviously knew it was me because you could tell who was working that day, those evenings, right? I never did it again after that. But that whole incident stayed with me for years. I'm telling you. I would pray over that. I said, I would pray to God, God, I am so sorry that happened. And like the Holy Spirit kept telling me, you need to go back to the retirement home and give them the$200 that you owe them. And so things like that always Did you do it? I never did.
SPEAKER_00You're gonna get to the pearly gates and have this list. He's like, I'm sorry, you owe the the Shady Grove retirement home$200 and then we'll let you in.
Redefining Freedom And Blessing The Past
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And so I never had the assurance of heaven because I felt like there were things on my list that I never made amends to. And so, yeah, I was afraid. And I don't think that way anymore. I don't.
SPEAKER_00You know, we've had a bunch of people on here from the church, and I don't know from your vantage point if it was any if if after that week, I know I remember when you told me that about feeling light like a butterfly, and man, that just encouraged me so much. Um did you think, oh, this is just this was just a great message, and I'm really glad we got to meet Richard, but that was gonna be the end of it, or or what happened afterwards? Did it did it surprise you? Um how did you how did you take all of that? Because it's been a ride for you.
SPEAKER_03I can't quite explain it. Someone has to experience it to go through what I went through. Everything started to change. The way I raise my children, the way I talk to my children, mate, the way I read the Bible, the thirst I have now, it was totally different. Um I think the knowledge of God all my life was just a knowledge of God, and then something flipped that weekend where I felt like God was for me now, He's not against me, He loves me. I don't have to work my way to win his love. Um it's been totally different, and I don't think anyone can quite understand it until they've experienced it for themselves. Yeah, so what Jesus did.
SPEAKER_00Wow. So then when the backlash was happening with the Seagos and then whatever you guys went through was in the light of that, what you just said, how did then you experience what happened at the actual church with your family?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So we stayed at that church for almost two to three years after the initial time you came. And I knew we were on to something because you know, when the gospel is preached, there will be backlash. And a lot of people didn't understand what we were going through. They they weren't happy for us. Um I think they were scared, but for us, we were, you know, living out this new found belief. And I felt like we were I felt so much joy, like joy that I've never experienced before. And I wish the leadership at our old church would just come together and just have a Bible study. I think the men of the church and my husband and the Siegels, all of it, a lot of it took place you know, the conversations we had were in the hallways, at the potluck table. But no one just came together and hey, let's have a Bible study and let's dig into the word and let the Holy Spirit just reveal things to us and we'll see if we land on the same page. And it's okay if we're not on the same page. Like we're all growing, and hopefully that's what I wish that would have happened. But we're actually in a better place now. Um, praise God, because um the Lord led us out of there. We're now at a great church, the pastor is amazing. And so if I ever have an opportunity to go back, I would just thank the leadership because we are now meant to be at the church we currently are at. And we're thriving there, and the kids are thriving, and we get to live this newfound joy out without worrying about anyone saying anything about anything we believe. Yeah, it's been a blessing.
SPEAKER_00So as I remember, you know, talking about some of these things that you were struggling through that week, and as you've been growing and you've just seen that God loves you and He's for you, um, even when it comes to anxiety or some of these old things, um how how do how does freedom interact with, yeah, if I'm experiencing this right now, like how do you reconcile those things?
SPEAKER_03Freedom for me is being the most authentic version of yourself. Right? I think so much fear was in my mind. I'm not good enough, I'm very awkward, my grammar's off, I don't know how to speak, this and that and that. You know, if I have my husband and my kids accept me for who I am, and the God of the universe loves me for who I am, then there's this freedom that doesn't rely on anybody else, it's just my relationship with God. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's awesome. So usually how we wrap these things up is we get to jump in the time machine, right? We get to go back, and if you got to go back, I don't know. Where would you where would you go back to if you wanted to minister to Tina and put your arm around her? Where where would you go?
SPEAKER_03I would go back to that little girl in kindergarten who showed up to class that day, not knowing how to speak English. Very timid, very shy, um, no friends. I would just look at her and let her know, talk to her and comfort her and just say, you know, you can just exist, be yourself, confidently exist in this world and not worry about anyone else. That life will life will be tough. You'll experience a lot of things, but just know that God's always with you and He loves you, and whatever struggles you're going through, He's going to be there with you, holding holding your hand, and you'll make it through. And that one day your struggles, you know, might help someone else who's going through the same thing as you are.
SPEAKER_00Well, you have been a testimony to me. Um I think sometimes it's easy to look at somebody like Matthew or Arnold or myself, who are always just up there, you know, we're talking all the time and we're preaching and whatever. Um, and then I see people like Natalie, my wife, and Sharon and you. And I see these rocks, this foundation, this home base of love for your families. And I see that with you, and it's just been a beautiful testimony to me. Um, seeing how you handled your house burning, seeing how you are with your kids. Um, yeah, you're you're salt and light. You're a you're a city on a hill, and so thank you, Tina. Um, I I see your good works and I glorify our Father in heaven. So thank you so much for sharing your story.
SPEAKER_03Appreciate you.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.