Death to Life podcast
A podcast that tells the stories of people that used to be one way, and now are completely different, and the thing that happened in between was Jesus.
Death to Life podcast
#263: Ron Weller: God Saves A Marriage Through Grace
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We sit down with Ron Weller for a brutally honest story of growing up with heavy shame, chasing a performance-based faith, and nearly losing his marriage through repeated unfaithfulness. We talk about what finally changed when he saw God’s love clearly, found real community, and learned how freedom in Christ reshapes desire and daily choices.
• growing up Adventist with sensitivity, poverty and hidden shame
• learning to relate to God through obedience, guilt and fear
• rejection, people pleasing and the “nice guy” mask
• meeting Yvonne, early romance and deep insecurity
• unexpected pregnancy, a rushed wedding and hard early years
• career growth alongside lingering failure and doubt
• depression in the home and crossing boundaries into an affair
• confessing, rebuilding trust and repeating the same pattern later
• separation, therapy and a yearlong From Bondage To Freedom class
• small group Bible study as practical healing and support
• a turning point through the prodigal son and a new view of God
• learning freedom from sin through renewed thinking and love
• counsel for someone desperate after betrayal: seek God first
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Why Transformation Still Happens
SPEAKER_02The world doesn't think that the gospel can change your life, but we know that it can. And that's why we want you to hear these stories: stories of transformation, stories of freedom, people getting free from sin and healed from sin because of Jesus. This is death to life.
SPEAKER_00I loved her. I always did. I never never really could see me marrying anyone else. I just had this horrible self-image problem. We went to this class every every Sunday for a year. At the same time, she was getting counseling from a therapist. I was getting counseling from a counselor who I was hoping that he would, you know, that he would say he would he would help me get to the root of some of these some of these esteem issues and all that. And he was more like, no, you're you're doing okay. No, you're you know, he was just like, come on, man, help me out. Yeah, yeah. So I felt like this is not this is not really helping at all. You know, he's just giving me affirmation. I don't need that. I need some some help with diagnosis, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yo, welcome to the Death Alive Podcast. My name is Richard Young, and today's guest I met at a potluck in Oregon, and that was years ago, and we've got to know each other a little bit better, and we spent some time. I just had his wife Yvonne on the podcast. His name is Ron, and his story is uh is is gonna be good, and so you're gonna want to pay attention and listen. Uh, I'm excited to hear it, so we're just gonna go to it. So buckle up and strap in. Love y'all, appreciate y'all. The next one you'll hear is Ron Weller. What do you think, Ron? You like that intro? That's awesome.
SPEAKER_00You're really good at this.
SPEAKER_02How many episodes have I done? I don't know. It's been a few. Uh I've done a few, and so it's kind of locked and loaded in there. Where are we starting, man? Where do where are you from?
SPEAKER_00Well, I'm I was born in Auburn, Washington, and lived there the first basically 19 years of my life. Um I'm the youngest of three, and um my parents were I'm actually a third generation Adventist.
SPEAKER_02Third generation. So how far does that go? That goes your parents, grandparents, great-grandparents? Well, you're the you're the third one.
SPEAKER_00I'm the third, yeah.
SPEAKER_02How'd your grandparents find uh the Adventism?
SPEAKER_00You know, I I actually don't know. Um, my dad's parents were were both Adventists. My mom's parents, uh, one of them was, and my grand, my grandmother on my mom's side, and she was a Seventh-day Adventist, but her her husband was uh irreligious.
SPEAKER_02Okay. That's similar to me. My my grandparents on my mom's side, both Adventists, and only one on my dad's side. Uh, and my grandfather was kind of irreligious. Okay. But an awesome, awesome, wonderful person. Just he just went to church for my grandma. He he wasn't really too into it. But that's similar to you then.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Um, so I I you know I grew up going to Seventh Avenue schools. I went to the uh the local uh elementary school uh in Auburn, Buena Vista. And um uh you know, I when I was growing up, uh, even before I went to school, I thought everything was great. I mean, I didn't have any issues that I really noticed, but when I started hanging out with other kids a lot, then I started to notice that there were some differences in my family, um, such as um my my father was was was pretty meek, and um mom was definitely the boss, and that was that was quite different from most of the families that that um that I interacted with. Um mom drove everywhere, dad never drove the car, and and and I would you know I would notice these things as I was growing up and um thinking why why are we different?
SPEAKER_02So yeah, that explains something about you a little bit to me that I've uh I recognize. I don't know if you you I've been around you when we were together in um in California, and you have a sensitivity to you that some guys don't have.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I think that's good. I think that's good, and sometimes we get that from a ma like we we if our moms are more in charge, then you kind of get that from them.
SPEAKER_00You know, and what's uh so so as we will find later, that I mean, well, I've always felt a little more comfortable around women because because of that, you know, guys tend to be shallow, talk about stuff that's fairly shallow most of the time, whereas women talk about relationship and um you know, and so so that always tended to appeal to me more than talking about football or yeah, yeah, yeah. Um so anyway, um as I was as I was growing up, there were some other things that that I would notice. Um uh I started school when I was seven and turned eight during first grade. So I was one of the oldest kids in my class always. And that was because my um next older brother, um, he really struggled in school. And he was he was um he had to repeat first grade. And so mom didn't want us in the same classroom because because school came very easy for me. And uh so she held me back an additional year. So yeah, I mean, I I was like I said, I was one of the oldest kids in my class always.
SPEAKER_02That give you confidence, or was it like did you feel weird being the oldest one?
SPEAKER_00Um fortunately, there were some other kids that were about my age, and so yeah, it it it actually gave me confidence. And there were so many kids who struggled, and I actually um I actually would would help tutor people with math and and stuff like that when I was yeah, I mean, I would help them because it was really easy for me. I read really well. I thought I already knew how to read before I started first grade. So yeah, there were there were some advantages.
SPEAKER_02I think that's the way to go for boys. Uh we put our son in a little bit later because I mean, four months makes a big difference in maturity level, and yeah, they can be a little more confident when what they're one of the older kids in the classroom.
SPEAKER_00So that's worked for him.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, hopefully he's still he's 10 years old and he's figuring it out. Um, but I think um just being a little taller, a little older doesn't hurt you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. I agree. Well, my my parents were were um you know raising three sons and they were we were pretty poor. We didn't have we we we always scraped by, but um we you know paying for um private elementary school was not cheap. And so yeah, so they struggled and they didn't they didn't um have enough money really to to have us ride the bus. So as a result, uh we'd walk to work to school almost every day, rain or shine, and it was like a mile and a half away. You know, this sounds like one of those, yeah, we had to walk barefoot through the snow, you know, uphill both ways, right? Love it. But it was kind of that way. And um I remember getting to school on rainy days, and my shoes would be completely soaked. Oh, and my coat would often be soaked through, and uh the lower half of my legs would be soaked. And uh basically I'd be the only one in my classroom who'd walk around the classroom with shoes squishing, you know. And and it I it just it just made me feel uh different. Made me feel I actually felt a little bit of shame from that. And um there were, you know, that as things progressed, um I had a lot of sources of shame. My parents, um, they were very busy, worked hard, but the house was not a real high priority, and it got to the point where, you know, um our house was was badly cluttered. And so were they hoarders? Um a bit. It got worse as after I left the house. Yeah. But um there was a time when, you know, the whole downstairs couch and chairs, they were all covered with boxes and papers and all kinds of things. And so, I mean, on a day-to-day basis, when it was just the family, we'd you know, that that was just our normal. But when anybody would would come over, um what I remember is they would they would, you know, we'd let them in the door and they'd step inside and I would and I would look at their faces and see this expression come over them like, whoa, this is bad. I could see it in their faces, and that just that just um embarrassed me. Yeah, that was hard. That was hard for me, and I and I felt a lot of shame from that. And so consequently, why do you think that was going on?
SPEAKER_02What was it about your folks that they were just lax about that?
Obedience Based Faith And Heavy Shame
SPEAKER_00Well, um part of it I think they were exhausted. They both had very long work days. Mom would leave the house at like 6 30 in the morning, and dad was already gone. He had to be to work by 6 30. And then, and then um, you know, end of the day, dad would come home and usually start dinner, and then mom would be home a little later, and they they weren't very good about um engaging us. They tried, I think, but we were we we we didn't learn how to be industrious, so we really didn't do much to help keep the house picked up. But you know, so and then it became just the normal, and they said, you know, can't fight this anymore, let's just let's just let it go. Um, and I think I think my brothers, they just they just kind of you know let it off as normal, but for me it was really hard. I for some reason I I was more sensitive to other, you know, I would go to other people's houses and they'd be neat and tidy. And and uh so anyway, people would say, hey, let's go, you know, let's let's play at your house today. And I'd say, no, no, let's do it at your house.
SPEAKER_02Right. Yeah. So makes sense.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So um I grew up uh when I got to the point where, well, even before I was of age to join Pathfinders, my parents were were in involved in Pathfinders, and so um I I would go on all the activities. And then when it was time for me to actually join, I joined Pathfinders and I really thrived on the the structure and the and the discipline. And of course, my MO for most of my life, it seems, was to be a pleaser. I um I got I got a lot of my um I guess good self-image from having my teachers really like me and having my counselors like me and and um you know stuff like that.
SPEAKER_02I think some of that also goes hand in hand with the women leadership. Like when you think about it, like when you go into elementary school, up until do you do you know when the first male teacher who what when when it was?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, fifth grade.
SPEAKER_02So that's usually fifth grade. So if the mom is the main leader in the family, and then there's all the teachers are women, like you learn, like, I need to please, and it's ends up being women, like you're trying to please women, and that turns you into some like sometimes it turns guys into a little bit manipulative because they just we they just want to be nice guys, and so they're not really honest because they want to make sure everything's okay, but it isn't that can be that can be a hard thing.
SPEAKER_00Well, and yeah, yeah, and I did I did suffer from being uh ingenuine sometimes, yeah, and honest, because I always wanted to put that that good boy face forward, you know, I was never a problem. Um my my my one of my my oldest brother was um he he didn't work really hard in school, and my second oldest brother struggled. I think he had a learning disability that plagued him. Um and so, you know, I mean I I I never had any problems, so I was uh I was pretty much low maintenance. But um then the the other thing that I remember so clearly is growing up in the Adventist Church, uh my my earliest recollections of of spirituality were you know that that God requires my obedience, he requires me to be good. If I'm bad, then um he kind of turns his back on me until I until I ask for forgiveness and uh you know change my ways, and then I'm back in favor with him.
SPEAKER_02When you come out of the movie theater, your angel will will hang out with you again. But like the angels waiting on the outside, like, oh, you want to see Titanic, that's three hours long.
SPEAKER_00When you come out, I'll be well, I didn't see my first movie in a theater until I was 22.
SPEAKER_02And you walked out of that theater and you were looking for the lightning bolts.
SPEAKER_00Right, right. But since it was since it was, I think it was Star Wars um Empire, uh the uh Return of the Jedi, I mean that was pretty harmless. And and I saw it like four times, I think.
SPEAKER_02When Star Wars came out, so Star Wars came out '76. This is like '83 the first time. Yep.
SPEAKER_00Yep. Yeah. That was it.
SPEAKER_02Amazing movie. So good one for your first uh mine was Pocahontas. I was uh maybe 13 or something like that. We were we were we were nervous because we had never gone to a movie before that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And yeah, you have that whole, oh, I sh I'm on unholy ground, and and my you know I don't think it's that way anymore, is it, for people in the church?
SPEAKER_02I don't think so.
SPEAKER_00No. I think we've realized that um, well, first of all, there's there's no debauchery in theaters. Well, except maybe young kids in the back row. I don't know. But the um the other thing is uh that it's it's the content, you know, it's what you're watching, it's not it's not wrong, it's the seats, it's the popcorn, it's the previews.
SPEAKER_02No, yeah, I think um yeah, we've kind of gone away from that. I'm sure there's still sex of adventists and adventism that are still heavy with that, but I don't see it as much anymore.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Maybe, maybe it's just the people I hang out with out. Who's to say?
Fear Of Other Christians
SPEAKER_00Well, and yeah, I mean, even you know, there was a time when if if I had been seen going into the local cinema when in Corvallis, somebody would have probably said, Oh, that's that's not good. But now it's not that way at all.
SPEAKER_02They made a movie with uh an Ellen White movie that played in the theaters. And uh the actress that played, we were talking about this like last week, the actress that played Ellen White was in a bunch of other movies that if they would have known she was in those, they probably wouldn't have hired her. But that's that's how far they've come. So you you had that kind of mindset, you gotta obey to get God right with you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And and of course, you know, all of those um heavy, heavy things that just you know, lots of lots of guilt, lots of uh lots of shame. And um one of the other big things that I learned is that you know Catholicism is is basically the beast.
SPEAKER_01Sure.
SPEAKER_00And um very bad. And where that that really never touched me until seventh grade when uh this this girl came to um our school, and she was she was amazing. She was so much fun, she was just bubbly and outgoing and confident. And uh she and I just clicked instantly and became really good friends. Then toward the end of of the of the year, one of my other friends came to my, you know, I was talking about, he says, What do you think of Tammy? I said, I think she's wonderful, and I just I really, really like her as a friend. And they said, Well, you know, she's Catholic. And I didn't I didn't know what to do with that. I I was um I was so disappointed and I thought now uh I can't associate with her, can't be her close friend anymore because I don't want to get contaminated or whatever the cosmic thing that happens, right? And oh, I can't I just can't, you know, as I look back now, I can't believe where that came from.
SPEAKER_02Oh, it was scary.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. It's I and I didn't know how to process it, you know. I yeah. So the next year, my eighth grade year, um, she was back, but we didn't hang out much. And she, of course, she was she moved on, she didn't have she had no problem finding other friends. But um yeah, I was afraid. I was afraid to associate with her anymore. Crazy.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. So um how'd you feel that you and God were?
SPEAKER_00Um, I mean, I I prayed, I but I I begged a lot. I wanted to be good and I wanted him to be proud of me, and I wanted him to be in my life, and but I didn't know, you know, I I didn't I didn't really know how much he loved me. Um I I felt there were huge expectations from God, and many of them I had a hard time meeting, you know. Um, I remember I was baptized at age 11 and uh with a bunch of my friends. You know, we had we all went through the whole the whole uh baptismal prep school, and uh we were all baptized together. And at that time I felt, all right, I am clean, I'm I'm in good shape with God, and and um yeah, this is this is gonna be great. Well, like within a week, I already knew that I had finished. failed and and I thought now what? You know, am I gonna have to be rebaptized in order to get right with God again? And just so much so much that I didn't understand, but that I that really affected me. And um yeah it was hard. Fortunately, you know um although we Yvonne and I got baptized in 2019 together in the Jordan River. So that was good.
SPEAKER_02Oh okay. That one that one really took the the other one you just didn't you didn't go under long enough.
Rejection And A Crisis Of Assurance
Falling In Love With Yvonne
SPEAKER_00That's right. Yeah well and come on where where else would be better to than to be baptized. Yeah it was good water. Oh goodness so I go you know I I had a I had another real struggle in eighth grade when I had been to that to the going to that same school for eight years and um we were graduating from eighth grade and the the school was picking you know the class was picking officers and uh somebody nominated me for class president and I thought oh that would be so neat because you know I've been here the whole time I got lots of friends and but um this other guy who had come like in sixth grade he was really charismatic and and you know just really confident and all that he got elected president I didn't get elected vice president I didn't get elected um um what was it sergeant at arms I got elected the historian and I have absolutely no idea what that is it's not I think it was yeah exactly and to my to my little developing brain it felt like a huge rejection by my friends and I didn't you know once again I didn't know how to process that um I think one of the biggest problems that I've had all my life is not not being able to turn to people and say hey I need to talk to you about this or that and I held a lot of a lot of stuff inside and I didn't know what to do with it. So I can see that that that has led to a lot of problems over the years. Yeah for sure so anyway next year I go to Auburn Academy and um I struggled had a hard time because all of my friends you know we kind of even though we were all in the same class we all had different classes at different times and um I didn't really have very many solid connections and I I just you know still felt the sting of what I thought was rejection and so I I kind of floundered a bit but um I made it through that year although oh man there was one incident um there was a week of prayer and this um the speaker basically he you know I listened to the whole thing obviously and this was on Friday night he got up and he said he he gave a presentation about about you know confessing to God and getting right with God and um he basically said uh toward the end of his talk he said he said you need you need to to search your heart and if there's even one sin that's unconfessed that that will keep you out of heaven and so you you know you need to search your heart well that just I mean I was so distressed I left that meeting and I thought God what what am I gonna do? And I and I walked to a secluded place on campus where you know where nobody would be and I sat down on these stairs and I just started sobbing. I thought God show me show me you know show me what I need to confess I I I want my life to be right with you and um I just I just couldn't think of anything nothing came to mind and I was just desperate for that revelation you know and um out of nowhere this girl who I just marginally knew of her name was Alice and she came up and said Ron and I was you know quickly wiping all the slime off of my face and I I said I said um yeah hi and she said what's what's the matter and I told her you know I started crying and I said I'm just you know I I I want I want to be clean with God and I don't can't think of any sins that you know I need to confess and and she says well what if you're all right what if you don't have any sins you need to confess and I thought about that and I thought could that possibly be true? What if what if I was okay with God um I'll never forget that because because I was I was searching for something that I likely already had. For sure yeah and you just that's heartbreaking though just to think of the sincerity in your heart yeah I know I I look back at that young man and I'm and I and I go you know oh if only I could have known and if only I could have actually shared how I was feeling with somebody and and and got their perspective I you know I just I was I was so alone and um I don't know I I it it was such a a strange time in my life next year was a little better uh it was my sophomore year and I was able to join choir which was huge it was it was such a great way for me to uh join with a lot of people in a in a in a goal of you know making good music and I found of course that music came very easy for me um I usually could memorize the choir pieces that we're doing within a really short time and then and then you know uh just do my singing part and um had a busy a busy year because I would I would go to school in the morning go to choir and then work all afternoon at Harris Pine Mills to pay for my bill so my my days were busy which helped a lot um but that was the year that uh you know in in later in the year um toward the you know the springtime the choir would go out on tour and go to different churches or gymnasiums you know and give concerts to the you know what you know what this is prime time for this time of the year two one of two things okay getting together yeah or breaking up because the weather gets better maybe not in Washington but everywhere else like the weather gets better and so you're like man I feel amazing I should date her or if you're dating someone and it's through the winter and it's not a good relationship you're like man I feel amazing and why am I with her and so one of those two things is that what's about to happen?
SPEAKER_02Did you meet Yvonne in the springtime?
Pregnancy And A Rushed Wedding
Career Stability With Lingering Failure
SPEAKER_00Yeah we were on a choir tour on the bus. Oh let's go and I I was I think I was sitting by myself and there was an open seat next to me and she just said can I sit here and I was like whoa well yes you know so we just started talking and she was sweet she was cute she was um she she was bubbly but but not obnoxious you know and and we just we just she was she it was calming to me I mean it was just wonderful and I can remember we're sitting on the bus and it was a you know the concert had been finished we were heading back to the school we had probably an hour and a half drive and she um she got sleepy she fell asleep and and her head came over and leaned against my shoulder. Magic yeah yeah and I was like oh this is good this is very good let's go so so yeah now it was it was later on in the year and so we you know we hang out we hung out quite a bit the rest of that year and then she went back to to Juno because that's where she was from for the summer. Well we we wrote lots and lots of letters and in fact I still have a shoebox full of her letters that she sent me. And it's it's it's pretty cool. Um so we we did that all through the summer I was looking forward to my junior year because you know she was coming back and then she she was actually moving to Auburn so that she could go to school as a village student instead of in the dorm. And um really excited to have her back and she got back and um the first time I saw her I could sense that something was different. She wasn't as um as open and and you know free as she had been and um we we hung out a few times and then she basically she broke up with me. And it wasn't even in the spring. Anyway um what something must have happened yeah um I I was I was devastated by that because I couldn't again I couldn't process it and I didn't I didn't know what was wrong with me what I had done or you know obviously she's young and and yeah and if and as I look back I think I think what would I have told myself if I if I could have right I I would have said hey this is this is normal this is very normal she has to find her way it's time for you to buck up and find your way you know um but man I yeah I was devastated and um I had a I had a tough year because we were both in choir and also the touring choir you know the the the specialty choir every time I'd see her I'd just like uh you know I'd have this longing and um so yeah struggled I really struggled that year. Um but then my senior year old around I'd spent the the summer working and my senior year old around and out of the blue she gets a hold of me and says are you going on this hike that's that's planned for you know for this weekend with the school it's kind of a it's kind of a kicking off the new year um everybody gets together and has a hike you know and um I said yeah would you would you want to would you want to walk with me? And I said yeah so yeah so um we got back together senior year was pretty good although I was I was plagued by this by this dread that that something would happen and I it would trigger her to break up with me again. Yeah I I'll tell you Richard I I really struggled with with my self-image and self-confidence and it was yeah it was very difficult but we um survived the year um yeah then uh I I was getting ready to go to Walla Walla College because that was the next thing to do. And yeah and uh so we actually decided between us that I wanted her to have a good senior year and I wanted to be able to um you know just enjoy your freshman year. Yeah exactly and so we thought let's let's put our relationship on hold we'll we'll do a soft breakup soft close here just yeah exactly and then uh we'll see how things go when she comes to a law next year. So that's that's what we did. And um my freshman year in college was actually one of the best years of my life it was it was I had um a roommate that was my best friend at the time he was he and I were really close and we talked a lot we hung out together a lot we'd go jogging together and and then um you know I I did okay in my classes um you were going into engineering what were you going into yeah I started out in electrical engineering and uh I think I got almost straight A's but um the other amazing thing that happened is you know I I had been really active as a singer in in academy and one of the things that I had done my junior and senior years I had been part um part of a quartet with with three other guys obviously and you know what a quartet is uh and um so when I got to college um I went through most of the year well it in March of that year I was contacted by the um the faculty sponsor of the messengers quartet which was a you know a quartet that that uh Walla Walla College had for years and they basically would tour during the summer kind of as a PR for the college and um yeah in March of that year they they got a hold of me and said hey would you like to try out they had tried out like six other guys and just didn't have the right vibe didn't have the right voice didn't have the right you know and so I said okay so I went and tried out and um the three other guys they looked at each other and said I think this can work and uh because our because you know we our voices blended nicely and so we had March April May we had basically three months to uh to learn about three dozen songs and be ready to perform them well you know for the summer and um I mean it came it came really easy for me I was able to you know learn those songs have them memorized so that I could focus on blend and all that stuff so yeah it it I mean that I can see that that was that was a a blessing that God God really blessed in that because I grew a lot through that experience I I gained a lot of self-confidence by being you know up on stage and singing at all these different venues it was um it was it was a great experience and you know I during the summer we toured and we got a scholarship for it for the next year. Nice yeah so the next year um Yvonne showed up back on the scene yep I was still in the messengers and we decided that yeah we want to be together so um had it I still had uh you know I was doing well in school doing the messengers still had my roommate and then um in January all of a sudden Yvonne well she she calls me one day and says we need to talk and uh so we we met and she says I'm pregnant and of course I knew who the father was like who's the dad how does science work we do so so um wow so then I uh I took her down to to Planned Parenthood to verify that she was pregnant you know and they did the you know they did whatever testing and they said yeah she's definitely pregnant so now she's like 20 weeks yeah she yeah so so we're now we're faced with some some really tough decisions we had to tell our parents um her parents were actually pretty understanding and um of course her mom blamed her but you know it takes two to tango and then I told my mom and she was like well is she is she gonna get an abortion and I said mom I don't I don't think that's an option well so another part of the complication was that my roommate and I had decided to go to Jerusalem as student missionaries for a year. So I had signed up I had announced to my local church you know and started some fundraising so um I think my mom was looking at the whole situation and saying no you got to go to Jerusalem you've already made that commitment you got to do this and that so there's you don't have a choice she needs you know to get an abortion and I and I said no I I'll I said I'll I'm gonna talk with Vonnie but I don't think that's an option and so um we talked and and both of us felt like no we we could not do that so we planned a very quick wedding I had to get up in front of the church and and basically say plans have changed take the money and give it to somebody else um we got married I went to my primary counselor and I said what do you think I should do and he said um he said well you know I think you need to suspend school drop out of school for right now and get a job and you know support your family and I thought oh man I don't know what you know what what to do and then I talked to the leader of this group that I was in the messengers and he said he said you know I think the best thing you can do is not just is just do the least disruption of your life stay in school stay in this sing in the singing group and and let's see where it goes from there. So that felt a whole lot more comfortable to me because everything was familiar so that's what that's what I chose and um so I mean I uh now I had to work two jobs to pay for rent as well as because we moved into a little apartment um and I continued going to school and I continued you know with the messengers and of course Nixed going to Jerusalem. Um poor Vonnie. She struggled really hard. She was only 18. And she really struggled with going from, you know, a life full of choices to now she's pregnant and she's gonna have a baby. Now the path is fairly well defined for her, and it wasn't one that she was really looking for. So yeah, so that was really hard for her. Um we you know, so we we um we had our first child, Christy. Um we moved to a different apartment that was much more affordable, and the rent could go directly on my bill, and that's so that was helpful. But um things, yeah, we were we were we lived hand to mouth, and um, like she pointed out in her podcast, God always, always provided. Um and I was you know, I was always amazed and grateful uh, but I still had some reservations about how God viewed me. I felt like I felt like such a failure in many ways. Um but then, you know, I mean, uh having this child was truly amazing. It brought out a whole different aspect to life. And I can remember um Yvonne would would give me Christy at the end of the day and said, Would you put her to bed? And I'd say, sure. So I would sit in the in the rocking chair and I would put her on my chest and I would sing um I would sing Jesus Loves Me, all four verses. And by the time I got to the end of the song, she'd be asleep, sound asleep, and I'd put her in her crib. And that that was our routine for months and months. And it was um something I look forward to every day. So yeah, it was yeah, it was a it was such a blessing that that God helped us through that. So, you know, years pass, next child came, I finally finished college. Uh, I sent out like 80 resumes, finally got a bite, went for an interview, got the job in Corvallis, Oregon, uh at Hewlett-Packard, and I worked there for 24 years. But so we we made the move to Corvallis, and um as I, you know, I I I by the time I worked there for like two years, I had already been I started making like$700,$800 more per month than than when I started. So we were actually starting to get comfortable and we could afford to, you know, yeah, to get a car and things like that that we needed.
SPEAKER_02For sure.
Depression At Home And First Affair
SPEAKER_00Yeah. We got you know active in our local church. Um I I was mainly doing things with music. Uh, and then we developed some some close friends that are about our age, and our and the kids were about the ages of our children. And um Vonnie uh had some had some struggles with depression. Yeah, and you know, I I tried the best I could to encourage and to, you know, but I I didn't understand. I didn't understand depression. For me, it was always well, if if I'm sad, I just keep moving on, you know, I just keep doing because it has to be done. Um I mean, I was I was patient, but she was very unavailable a lot of the time. And so unfortunately, uh I was unfaithful with with her best friend, that you know, the the couple that we had gotten to know.
SPEAKER_02And um, you know, obviously it was devastating, and um I I can't remember, did you confess to her or did it got like it got um exposed?
SPEAKER_00I conf I confessed to her. It was, I mean, it was unfortunately, it was she she suspected, but I I confessed to her, and I and um it broke her heart, and I and I I was just you know, I felt so terrible about that. And um so she she went to back to Walla Walla, she'd met a uh a therapist there, and she just needed to get away and get some counseling. And um, you know, I I took care of the girls. By then we had two, of course. And um when she got back, we went to a a faith-based counselor uh uh to do couples therapy, basically. And and and he was he was helpful, but but really um probably the best thing was time and the fact that that we wanted to, you know, we wanted to work it out. Um you know, obviously the biggest concern for her was whether she whether I was trustworthy again. Yeah. But we kept moving on, things got better, and and we were, you know, we were back, we were we were back to pretty much normal for years. And then um in 2004, uh cycle repeated. I I um I just you know I got I got special attention from someone that and I yeah.
Second Affair And Separation
SPEAKER_02You know, you think about these things, you you think about if you're in a position that you're you're tight with somebody and there's a mutual attraction if you're not careful, um there can be intimacy, there can be like that you can have a bond, and so it's it's you know, sometimes I talk to guys and they're like, Man, I don't know why I fell with this thing and I fell with that thing. But then when you look at the circumstances, it would be stranger if they didn't fall based on how they're living their life, but they didn't know, but that's how it goes, and so you look back and you're like, oh, why why did this happen? And like I said, it'd be stranger if it didn't happen based on if you put yourself in a position with somebody and there's an attraction, well then there can become obviously there can become some intimacy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, and it's and especially if if you're not if you're not really great at you know at setting setting really solid boundaries.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00So so yeah, so obviously that was devastating again, and and this time, um it it really threatened our marriage. I mean, to the point where Yvonne said, I cannot do this. And she said, You've got to go. And uh I can I can remember spending my first night in the car because I had nowhere to go. How old were you? Um let's see, 2004, I was 40, let's see, 59. I'm doing the math here. No, I was 70, 35.
SPEAKER_0235.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Is that right? 2026 to 2024 is or 2004 is 22 years. So if you're 59, 20 59 minus 22, carry the one. Well, uh much. You were like 38 or something like that. 39.
SPEAKER_00I was probably no, I think I was 46 then. Oh yeah, yeah. Should have known better. But I had, you know, um, I was still approaching my spirituality from a from a behavioral standpoint. And I, you know, of course, when I do that and then fail, it's like I got nothing. I got nothing. And I and I and I I thought, God, I what you know, now what? I can't I can't be good. I'm supposed to be good. I want to be good. I can't be good. What's there what what's left?
SPEAKER_02Was this another confession?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02So that I mean, there's there's men that do this, there's no kind of confession. Like, you some, I mean, obviously that was a mistake, but like there's some sincerity that you still love your wife and you don't want to continue in this way, you just didn't know how to get out of it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, so I spent first night in the car, then I then I sp I spent the the next, I don't know, part of a week on the floor of of one of my best friends at the time. And um, then I found the finally found a little apartment. Um, and I moved into that apartment for for better part of a year.
SPEAKER_02Remind me, when is the part did this pass already where she she goes driving?
SPEAKER_00Oh no, that was yeah, that was the first time. Yeah, when she went.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I was I was um and if if people don't remember, Yvonne was considering you know harming herself, and then I think at the last moment she she didn't want to. Is that what happened?
A Yearlong Recovery Class
SPEAKER_00Yeah, she was she was driving our our uh car out to the coast, kind of going a little too fast, and it was in the winter, and she didn't have her seatbelt on, and um at some point um she got this really strong impression put your seatbelt on. And so she did, and and then she hit some ice, skidded off the road, and rolled the car. Yeah, um, yeah, that was uh that was the the first time. I think this, yeah, the second time she was in a different place where I think she felt she didn't feel quite as helpless. And our girls were were grown and gone, living their own lives. Um so she basically said, You need help. And so so the first thing that we wanted to do was try to get couples uh different couples counseling. So we we contacted this lady that we were referred to, and um she said, I don't do that, but I have I'm about ready to start a class that's called From Bondage to Freedom. And she said it goes every Sunday for a year. And she said, I know that if you if you both attend that, that there will be you will see light on the other side. So uh I mean I I was I was desperate. I I didn't want to lose my wife. I loved her. I always did. I never never really could see me marrying anyone else. I I just had I just had this horrible self-image problem. And um so anyway, I I stayed in the apartment. It was within walking distance of work, so that that was convenient. Um we went to this class every every Sunday for a year. At the same time, she was getting counseling from a therapist, I was getting counseling from a counselor who I was hoping that he would, you know, that he would say he would he would help me get to the root of some of these some of these you know esteem issues and all that. And he was more like, no, you're you're doing okay. No, you're you know, he was just like very felt like this is not this is not really helping at all. You know, he's just giving me affirmation. I don't need that. I need some help with diagnosis, you know.
SPEAKER_02Did you did you eventually like what did you understand about why you were so looked so down on yourself?
SPEAKER_00Um I I I didn't well several of the things are I mean, I had so much shame from my childhood, and I had so much um disappointment in just I I didn't I never felt like I was a mainstream kid. I always felt like like I was kind of alone. And um, in fact, this is weird. I I can't remember which year it was. When I was in academy, there was this girl named Rita, and she was a casual friend. I liked her, she was nice, but at some point she made a comment that just almost cursed me. She said, I I said, I I don't even remember, I don't even remember how it came up, but she basically said, um, if you know, you wouldn't be so, you know, you'd be you'd be pretty cool if you weren't a weller. And I thought, what does that mean? And I I didn't know whether that was just her saying something uh if some opinion, whether that was a a wide opinion that she was, you know, revealing to me. I had no idea. But it it it was like a you know a gut punch, and I felt I felt and how can I you know now how can I even I mean I can I even live with my name if that's a problem? You know, it's just there were so many things that um did you get your feelings hurt pretty easy? I did, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I think that's a it's a combination, right, of your sensitivity, getting your feelings hurt easy. And I mean, so much of that can be a superpower where you can like really see people because you're sensitive. Do you get like you probably got secondhand embarrassment? Did you get second when other people were doing stuff like if you heard someone trying to sing and it wasn't going well, did you ever get embarrassed for them? Um, yeah, sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. And that's because you're you're you're a sensitive guy. And then when people say that stuff, like, oh, if you weren't a weller, that that can hit real hard.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And it it's um I know I know that there are sensitive guys who have a a much better foundation and who can say, you know, who can say in their heart, well, that's your opinion, but I don't have to agree with that, right?
SPEAKER_02They might feel it the same. You know, so much if people, I'm a sensitive guy, if people felt the same way that we feel. A lot of the times they would make the same, they would act the same way that we do. In our sensitivity, we can hold on to our sensitivity and we should, but then we have to actually handle what's happening. And before we just didn't handle it, we were so sensitive, maybe we didn't know we were sensitive. We thought everybody dealt with life the same way we were dealing with it. Right. Um, but yeah, you're my feelings, my feelings in my life have been so easily hurt, and it's been a detriment to my life. Um, that my feelings have been like I've been so easily hurt.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And that's and that, yeah, that's hard. It's hard to deal with because you you I mean, I always took it so personally, you know. I always, what's wrong with me? What's wrong with me?
SPEAKER_02So But this guy wasn't helping you uncover any of that.
SPEAKER_00No, he was just like you're good, bro. Yeah, you you you know, you seem pretty well adjusted. I don't know what the problem is. But then the other thing I did was um I met for that whole year, I met um with my pastor and two other guys, and we had a Bible study every Friday, and uh we'd get together and and eat and pray and um you know just talk. And and that was probably more therapeutic than the counselor.
SPEAKER_02Oh, praise God.
Prodigal Son And A New View
SPEAKER_00Um so anyway, um I know Yvonne mentioned there was uh there was one session in our you know in our year-long class. I mean, it it was it was really helpful. It talked about, you know, it talked about um God's love for us and and all kind and how you know how our emotions sometimes will get in the way of things and blah, blah, blah. I mean, there's so much there that I that I I know I internalize, but I don't remember, I can't articulate really very well what it was. But one day um we were there at the at the at the uh class, and um I don't remember the presentation went some direction and it just it just hit me like a ton of bricks, and I started I started crying in the class and um just really broke down. And I um and that was that was the first time since we had been doing the class that Yvonne looked at me and said um and she and she really felt compassion instead of anger. And so that was a kind of a turning point. After the after the year and and all of the stuff that we that we had done to try to you know to uh to rebuild we we finally decided, yeah, we really want to be together, and we can be different. God has given us you know the ability to change the future. And so we did. And you know, it's like the last um well the last the last 22 years have been have been just excellent. But I I I have to I have to mention that you know I struggled with my relationship with God for so many years, thinking that that I could never I could never fully please him. Um because he's he's a judge. And if I always come up short, well, you know, he he's going to he's going to say, you know, I sorry, but you're just you're just not measuring up to what I need.
SPEAKER_02So But he's given all judgment to the sun.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Oh so okay, maybe it's Jesus is the one that's saying you don't measure.
SPEAKER_02But then Jesus is like, if you believe in me, you've already gone from death to life. I know. Truly, he says, truly, truly, I tell you.
Freedom From Sin And Renewed Desire
SPEAKER_00Which leads me to 2022. That's the that's the year when um our pastor um basically invited Jonathan to come and do a weekend. And that's when I first met you and Jonathan. And um Jonathan told the story of the prodigal son, and there were there were things that I had never Even imagined before, you know, that like one of the things he said was that the father ran out to meet his son, partly because he he he loved his son and wanted to be with him, and partly to protect him from, you know, right, the the elders at the gate that were going to take him away and stone him. Yeah. And I just, I, I, it just um, wow, it changed the way that I I started to see God differently. And um, and then of course the whole team came some months later, and you guys did wave one at our church, and it was it was it was just fantastic because there were things there was there were scripture, like I mean, Romans was totally different from what I'd ever read before. I always kind of breezed through Romans and you know what I what I want to do, I can't do, and blah, blah, blah, that's me. Um but but to reframe it and to to see it for what for what for what it's really saying made a huge difference to me. Um and you know, the whole Adam One, Adam Two, I really connected with that because Jesus basically reset everything that Adam one yeah couldn't do. Yeah. So um at that whole week, it it started me uh on a whole different way that I viewed God. And over time it has grown to the point where I I will never see God again as a judge who wants to who is looking for a reason to condemn me, who is looking for a reason to strike my name off the list, right? The book in heaven. God loves me, loves me so much that that God in the form of Jesus died for me that to to make it possible for me to be with him. And when when I when I started seeing God as nobody could love me better, right, than God, when I started seeing that, everything started to change. My my desires started to change. Why would I want to do anything that would separate me from this genuine, powerful source of love? Why would I why would I want to engage in things that make me feel guilty, make me feel shame, make me want to put a distance between between this God and me? Um man, it it changes your it changes your behavior. It changes the way you perceive other people. You know, I I perceive people with compassion. I mean, I've always been compassionate, but when I see people as you know, we're all we're all on this same playing field. God loves us all equally. And um so yeah, so I I don't see as people as better or worse than me. I don't see people as, I mean, I don't see myself as better or worse than anyone else.
SPEAKER_02Kind of stop judging yourself.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Because um, if God doesn't judge me, if and if God values me, then I can believe that. I can believe that for my own life. So um, yeah.
SPEAKER_02What was um when you started to understand freedom from sin and not being under the law, was that difficult?
SPEAKER_00Um you know at first at first I wanted to believe it so much because it sounded it sounded magical. It really did. It sounded it sounded like if I if I can really if if this is really true, then then that's huge. Then then you know um all the power of sin has been completely put to death. I mean it's gone. And so when I finally when I when I finally said you know, believed, and I said, this, yeah, this is true. This is definitely true. I mean, it says it right in the right in the word, and if it's you know, if I'm gonna believe it, if I'm gonna believe what the word says, then I then I need to take it at face value. And if this is true, I need to believe it for my life. And so um, yeah, my my view of sin now is that um I mean it's pretty much impotent.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00There is sin has no power over me because my God is has has conquered it.
SPEAKER_02And then what the game is now is to change your mind. Like sometimes our mind can confuse us like it does have power, because like in the past that had power over us, and so you think all it still does, but then as you realize, oh it it has no power over me, like I can live exactly how I want to live, and what do I want to do? I don't want to let sin rain in my body to make me obey its passions, like I can walk in freedom, and that's what I want to do. Yeah, but if you don't know if it has power, then you're toast.
SPEAKER_00Right, right. But but I think I think this this is probably the most powerful starting place in in love reality. And then of course you guys have have uh it goes, it just expands from there. You know, for being free from sin is huge, and it's um it's a great starting place.
SPEAKER_02It's a foundation that where we can learn how to grow from.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. And then the other thing that that I've really enjoyed is um being on a path with other people. Uh I I really enjoy that because um I I tend to, you know, I tend to be quiet, I tend to isolate myself, and so knowing that there are other people out there that are pulling for me and praying for me, absolutely like-minded, these are these are just really delightful things.
Advice For The Broken And Closing
SPEAKER_02When I I didn't rem didn't know you guys were gonna be at Justin's house, and I walked in and I saw you guys sitting at the table, and I was like, oh, cool. Because, you know, I remember you, but I don't, you know, sometimes we're extra and we're, you know, maybe and I say we, it's probably just me. Jonathan's pretty, you know, he's teaching and Justin's doing his thing, and I'm just kind of crazy. And so, but I thought it was gonna be super cool, and then we had some great conversation through the weekend, and it was just a blessing to see you guys so excited, and then to hear your stories. I think this is what the church is about encouraging each other, edifying each other, and just lifting each other up. And so I was super happy to see you guys come out.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, thanks. Yeah, and we'll I think we'll um we'll make the effort to be at more of them. It's it's just there's something really, really great about getting together in person and just being able to hang with each other, you know?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. So let me ask you this you run into a guy who's sincere but has made similar mistakes, and maybe it's in the pretty recent, he's like, Man, I don't know what to do. How would you start to minister to somebody who is like uh like my wife hates me now and I don't know what to do? Where where can I go? What can I turn to? How would you start to minister to him?
SPEAKER_00Um one of the one of the things we learned that that actually has resonated with me ever since was that the the best marriages are when two healthy people get together. People two two people who are individually healthy get together to share their life. So what I would I think I would start with, you know, trust God with the marriage, but now is the time for you to seek God with your whole heart. Know that he loves you, know that He is that He is going to hold you up, know that that through His Spirit He's going to guide you and teach you, but put your whole heart into seeking the Lord and then trust Him to work out the details of the marriage later. But but you know let your heart let your heart be tenderized and be transformed by the Lord's, by the Lord's, by the word, you know, by the Lord.
SPEAKER_02I think Jesus said it right. Seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all of these things will be added unto you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And that's it seems like that's what's been the the case in your life.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and you know, it's it's it's so wonderful, Richard, to be able to get up every morning and not feel ashamed.
SPEAKER_02Mercy.
SPEAKER_00To not feel like that's the killer. Shame is the killer like my life is a is a waste, you know, and every you know, every um every person has the potential of of just grasping hold to that truth that God is with us, God, you know, God heals, God, yeah, God wants to be with you.
SPEAKER_02So Amen. Well, thank you for sharing your story. Uh, we appreciate you and Yvonne, your whole family. And so thank you so much, my friend.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, Richard. Appreciate you.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely.