Death to Life podcast
A podcast that tells the stories of people that used to be one way, and now are completely different, and the thing that happened in between was Jesus.
Death to Life podcast
#266 Aaron Dickerson: When Success Turns Into Stress And God Meets You There
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We talk with Aaron Dickerson about growing up with a fear-based view of God, building his identity on performance, and how stress eventually broke through in severe health crises. We share how forgiveness and hearing “You are loved” reshaped Aaron’s view of God and opened a new life of trust, freedom, and discernment
• growing up around Revelation seminars and a distant picture of God
• building an identity on academics and “never making mistakes”
• work pressure, anxiety, ulcers, and the belief that it is all on me
• the shower fainting incident, long-term vertigo, and physical recovery
• a chair injury that turns into infection, sepsis, surgery, and home IVs
• wrestling with disappointment, unanswered healing, and trust in God’s care
• hearing God say “You are loved” and why it took years to believe
• Love Reality skepticism, pride, and the breakthrough conversation that clicked
• forgiveness as the doorway to receiving love
• spiritual gifts, dreams, and practicing discernment with wisdom and Scripture
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Why Transformation Stories Matter
SPEAKER_01The world doesn't think that the gospel can change your life, but we know that it can. And that's why we want you to hear these stories: stories of transformation, stories of freedom, people getting free from sin and healed from sin because of Jesus. This is Death to Life.
SPEAKER_00So come 2020, um, Love Reality comes to uh Denver to Life Source. And I remember hearing Morgan give her testimony there, and it didn't make sense to me. And I was like, I don't get it. Like, I just wasn't comprehending it. And so um Becca talked to Jonathan that weekend, um, and that was helpful for her. And I remember afterwards seeing Morgan in the in the foyer, and I was like, should I go talk to her? And I was like, I don't know, like her story just didn't resonate with me, so I passed on it, and anyway, didn't think much about it. So Becca then has this huge breakthrough of freedom after that. Um, and I remember thinking like it was kind of that love reality is this weird cult thing that Becca's joined now.
SPEAKER_01Yo, welcome to the Death Alive podcast. My name is Richard Young, and today's guest is Aaron Dickerson. And I have known Aaron for a while, and I've been really blessed by him and his family. And we were talking the other day, I was like, man, I haven't heard the whole story. If you remember his wife Becca, she has a remarkable story. You'll have to go back in into the library to hear it. But this is Aaron, and uh, I'm excited to hear his story and how God has brought him from death to life in Christ. So the next uh voice you'll hear will be him. Uh so buckle up, strap in. Love y'all, appreciate y'all. Aaron, I don't know where you're from, I don't know where you were born. I know your name is Aaron, and I'll be really embarrassed if you went to Union College. I don't think you went to Union College. I'll be mortified if you did. Did you?
SPEAKER_00Well, we'll we'll start at the beginning. So um I kind of have a complicated um geographical history of where I was from. So uh my parents were missionaries um in Africa and Liberia. And I was my mom was pregnant with me at the time, and there was actually a uh military coup they overthrew the government, and so they sent all the Americans back home. Um, so my parents just kind of ended up in Virginia because that was just where they landed when they came back stateside. Um so I was born in Virginia, and after about a year, um my dad got a job uh teaching in Kansas City. Um so we were now forget the name of the school, it was in Missouri. Um Cedarvale. That doesn't sound quite right, but it's
Growing Up Missionary Kid On The Move
SPEAKER_00closed down now.
SPEAKER_01If it was on if it was in Kansas City, Missouri, and it was in Kansas City. Now if it's further it's a little outside, it might have been Lone Jack or uh Belton or but Cedarvale was what was it K through eight?
SPEAKER_00I'm not sure because I wasn't school-aged yet.
SPEAKER_01I was you didn't live there very long then, did you?
SPEAKER_00No, I was there until I was five, but I do remember we lived um just a mile from Arrowhead, so we were on the north side of the interstate on Blue Ridge Cutoff, and um yeah, and so I remember we could hear the stadium noise during the games from our house, and um every now and then I was more into baseball back then. I remember going to the Royals games, and they would give us um occasionally some free tickets for just being in the neighborhood.
SPEAKER_01And um well, we were terrible back then too.
SPEAKER_00Well, no, not this was 85.
SPEAKER_01Oh, 1985, they won the World Series, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So I was uh huge um George Brett fan, and um I remember going to Kaufman and just being mortified of being in those upper decks because it was so steep, and as a little kid, it just felt like I was about to fall down all the time, right? So anyway, um yeah, uh around that time uh that school closed down. Um my dad got a job down in Texas, uh, where one of my uncles also taught down there. So we moved down to um Dallas Fort Worth area. Um, and that's where I grew up through high school. Um so I grew up around uh Southern or Southwestern, sorry. And I was you know wanted to be an engineering major, and they only had one year of engineering at Southwestern. So I did in fact go to union, but only for two years.
SPEAKER_01What year did you start a union?
SPEAKER_00Uh 99.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so you're a few you're a few years older than me. We missed each other. Praise God. And then you were there 99, 2000, or you you you did one year at Southwestern?
SPEAKER_00No, I did two years at Union and so uh in 2001, uh then I transferred to Walla Walla and finished my last two years out there.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01And Burton was the the academy you went to?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Man, know a lot of great people from Burton. So when someone says where are you from, you would say Dallas, Fort Worth area?
SPEAKER_00So I used to say Texas, but I think now I've been in Colorado so long, it's been the majority of my life now. Um after college, we moved to Colorado, and um now more than 50% of my life has been here. So now I'd say Denver.
SPEAKER_01You went to school with my brother then my brother Mike. So when you hear about missionaries, you tend to think of you know, people obviously sold out for the Lord. Uh, and it tends to be now you tell me if it was different for your folks, people who are a little bit more conservative in their thinking or in their background. Did that seem to be what your folks were like? That's just an assumption.
SPEAKER_00I no, I don't think so necessarily. Um, you know, going to church in Texas, being in the South was a little more conservative. Um, I don't think my family was any different than any other families I was around. Actually, there are less so because we're a lot around a lot of Hispanic families. So um that was very conservative. Um, our Pathfinder Club, it was like being one of the only uh non-Spanish speaking people there, you know, I felt like as in a Spanish Pathfinder.
SPEAKER_01So do you did you did you pick up some Spanish?
SPEAKER_00Uh nothing. Uh no. Enough to find the bathroom when I was on a on a mission trip, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, enough to find the bathroom when you're camping, getting those honors. So um then what was the version of of Christianity that you felt like you grew up with? Like who was God to you growing up?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I remember thinking about that um as a kid, you know, thinking about the Trinity, and to me it felt like God was a stern, you know, going to judge me. Like I didn't really want to interface with him that much. Jesus was a cool dude, like the stories about him, and the Holy Spirit was like mythical. Like I didn't even know what to think about the Holy Spirit. I was just like, I don't know if he's even real. Like, you know, I knew he was real because he's in the Bible, but you know, it just this felt weird. So um I I had a lot of thoughts about um you know, going to Revelation seminars and things like that, just hearing about the end times. Um, it was kind of terrifying. Um, so I always thought, you know, I was pretty good, but like I just want to live my life and then make everything right at the very end so I can go to heaven, but I don't want God to come back until I get my driver's license. Right.
SPEAKER_01So that's I I just heard this quote about the book of Revelation and I thought it was amazing. It said, every generation believes that the book of J of Revelation is written about the time that they're living in, and every generation has been wrong.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I was like, yeah, that like, and if you read Revelation in the context of John writing it, it reads probably a lot different, like of his time rather than we've moved it. And so what were your thoughts about like Revelation seminars growing up then? Were you like like a lot of it like makes sense when you're thinking about um the statue and where we're where we are in history, I guess?
SPEAKER_00I remember it was probably when I was in about third grade, we had this guy come and do like a week of prayer or something. And I remember he he came out and said, you know, Jesus is coming back in 1989. And I was like, what? I was like, that's not that's not that far away. And so like it had me terrified. And so where we grew up, um, my house was like on the edge of the suburb. So it's like my house and then my neighbor's house, and then there's a street, and there's just like hay fields for you know miles and miles. But on the edge of one of these hay fields was a juvenile detention center. And so I would sleep when the weather was nice, I'd sleep with my window open, and at like five in the morning, they'd take these kids from Juvie out and run them through these fields, and they'd be like doing chants, like you you'd envision like somebody in the military doing. And so I'd hear this and I was like, man, it's those people coming to get the saints, you know, it's the end times. And as a kid, I was just like, I remember just waking up and just being like, oh no, it's happening. I need I better pray real quick.
SPEAKER_01That's not good. And then you're like, oh, it's fine. That when the when the struck when the clock struck midnight on uh December 31st, uh 1989, you were like, I wonder what that guy must have been thinking.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, he's looking outside. I never followed up with them this year. Had no idea who that guy was, never saw him again the rest of my life.
SPEAKER_01But Mercy. And so you grew up kind of the revelationary uh uh revelation seminar style, uh but you had more questions about that stuff then.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think I I kind of felt like everybody had their own personal view of um
Revelation Fear And A Distant God
SPEAKER_00religion and their relationship with God, and so um I I felt like I I was kind of working on making my own you know sense of things through the Bible. And for some reason, as a kid, the the book that really stood out to me was the book of James. And I read three-yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01You're just like, I want to know the difference. Like Jesus, Paul, and James seem to all have different theologies. Let's dive into what James is saying about works.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, so there's a couple things that stood out in uh the book of James. One was um we did a Sabbath school class where somebody, one of the adults came in and they preached a whole chapter on you know, taming the tongue. And like that had a huge impact on me. And so I was like really mindful of my words, like from a young age. Um, and not necessarily from a legalism standpoint, but it was almost like you know, you'd be reading the Bible, and certain versions I was like, we'd have to read out loud in class or something, and I'd have to substitute and be like, you know, a donkey because I don't want to accidentally, you know, say something that might be a curse word, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like how Moses uh tied his ass to a tree and walked up a mountain. Like you don't want to say that.
SPEAKER_00Right, exactly. Um and then the other part was in uh James chapter one, where it talks about if anyone uh desires wisdom, um, you know, ask the God who is generous and he will give it to you. Um and so I remember that being my prayer a lot through childhood was was asking for God to give me wisdom.
SPEAKER_01That's that's beautiful. Do you still think of that that the point of the taming the tongue was speaking about curse words, or do you see it differently now?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, definitely it's changed. Um before it was more like uh, you know, don't say um, you know, this specific list of words. Um however, now it's more of a you know, you can't really control the tongue. It's like this fiery thing that um it's really about what's in your your mind is going to come out. So it's more about um moderating what you allow in because whatever comes in is what's going to go out. Um, so it's more about um being mindful of your thoughts. And to me, taming your tongue is more about being, I guess, not reckless. So you're not saying rash promises and and things like that. So you're just being thoughtful about what you say.
SPEAKER_01I think speaking death over people, like you can you you can like my wife and I, I don't think we've ever sworn at each other. But in a fight, we've said some things that were crazy hurtful because we were not controlling what we were saying, and yet we were very careful to not use a bad word. And I don't think it's wrong to be careful to not use a bad word, but across the board you should be careful with how you speak, the the way you talk to somebody, um what kind of even the energy you have can like a sentence can read one way and read and hear it a different way, and so yeah, I think James was on to something, but it's I remember the first time I said gosh, I heard a lady at the supermarket. This is a core memory, she said gosh, and so I went home and I said gosh, and my mom was like, Don't say gosh, and I'm like, What? And um, I love my mom, wonderful lady, but I think that was like the old school way of of thinking about swearing and all that, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I think you know, if we kind of put a pin in this thought, it'll it'll become relevant later on in my story. Um, just this some of this background from James, um, so kind of setting the table for later. Um, but just kind of back up as a younger child, um, you know, my my parents were living on a single income as and my dad was a teacher, so I consider ourselves to be, you know, the lower end of uh economic status, right? Um and I had two sisters, so a family of five. And um, you know, we were getting by. I never felt like we were lacking for anything. Like I never felt like, oh, where's our next meal going to come from, or we might get evicted, or something like that. You know, it always felt like we were taken care of, but um subconsciously, I think I I kind of worried a little bit um and developed this sense of um, you know, you gotta take care of yourself, um, and became a very independent child. So I remember really wanting to work like at a young age to like earn income for myself. Um, and so you can't do a whole lot when you're really young. So I tried to start a lawn mowing business. Um that didn't really take off. So then I I was probably um 12 or 13 when I tried to start selling Avon door to door. And um people aren't really that interested in buying makeup from a 13-year-old boy, right? So um did you sell any any kind of makeup? No, no, I gave away samples, never made a sale.
SPEAKER_01But like, hi, you're 13 years old at their door. They're like slam.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So I I got a um, I finally got a job um doing some babysitting. And then when I got old enough to take my um lifeguarding, my Red Cross exam, uh became a lifeguard and I did that uh during the summers. And then during the school year, I just worked at the school as a janitor, you know, taking out trash, vacuuming, cleaning bathrooms, stuff like that.
SPEAKER_01And uh were you were you able to use that money for something that you wanted? Or were your folks like, you gotta help with the groceries?
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, so I was very focused on buying a car. And so I started saving. Um I think I opened my my first savings account when I was 13, and then I would invest that money in like a CD, stuff like that, just to try to save up the money so when I got my driver's license, I could get a car.
SPEAKER_01Wow. You you had a pr you were pretty driven then.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Yeah. Um but I think you know, that drive, um, a lot of people, you know, commented on it. You know, I did fairly well academically. Um I it was probably around fifth grade or fourth grade, somewhere around there. You started transitioning from getting, you know, S's for satisfactory to getting the A, B, C, D, F grades. And I remember the first report card I got had all A's, and you know, I didn't know so anything, anything about that. I was like, I guess A's, you know, good, whatever. Um, but I got put on like the principal's honor roll list, and they'd give you this little coupon for uh a restaurant called uh Poncho's. There's a Mexican all-you-can-eat buffet.
SPEAKER_02Let's go.
SPEAKER_00And um, I mean, I think it normally costs like $2.99 back back in that day to go, but you know, I got a free coupon, so I was going to go get my free Mexican buffet on. And uh let's go. So people kind of made a big deal about it. And I was like, all right, so I started to equate that you know, getting good grades is a way to get recognition. Um, so academically, you know, my goal was just to do good and just get my scorework done so I could go outside and play. You know, just I wanted to be outside playing basketball, soccer, baseball, etc.
SPEAKER_01That's those were the good old days. And so then you um school became pretty easy to you. How did you um when you made mistakes, was was God frustrated with you? How did you think about God when you missed the mark?
SPEAKER_00So I think, you know my view of making a mistake, my thoughts on sin back then were you know, it's a it's a blemish. I need to pray and get washed clean, and you gotta do this every time you you sin. Um and so you know, I was just focused kind of like on academics, like just don't make mistakes, like try to just be really good. Like um it was kind of really stressful. Um and I didn't realize it at the time, but as a kid, I had a lot of anxiety um around trying to be trying to maintain this kind of perfection. Um and so, you know, specifically like academically, um, then you get this reputation of being one of the smart kids in the class, and they'd do scholastic bowls and things like that, and they would you know select four people from each grade level, and you go up there and answer like
Perfectionism Anxiety And Identity
SPEAKER_00these trivia questions and things like that. And I remember just being terrified, I'd be sitting there sweating like with my buzzer, and I was like, I know the answer, but like what if I don't, what if it's wrong? Like in front of the entire student assembly to say a wrong answer was just mortifying. Um, say you know, occasionally I buzz in, but sometimes I'd just like I know the answer and I just wouldn't buzz in um and then regret it because I didn't know the answer. Turned out to be right. Um so through high school, um I remember I got I got all A's like all the way through my senior year. Um and then I got to college and yeah, the classes got a little harder, but um just had to put on a little more time and effort. And then when I graduated, um it was onto the onto the workforce and you know, just trying to maintain that, never making a mistake. Um had this idea that I was supposed to know everything when I came out of school, and that was definitely not the case.
SPEAKER_01So if you if you want to know something, talk to somebody who just graduated. Actually, not just graduated, junior year of college. That's the year you know the most that you'll ever know in your life. Yeah. Because your freshman year you're like trying to figure it out. Your sophomore year, you're getting close. Your junior year, you're like, Yeah, I got it. Your senior year, you're like, oh no, I'm about to go into the life, I don't have it. And then life hits you, and of course uh you don't have it. So you think that it's interesting that if your folks or the school or somebody says, You're a really good student, then all of a sudden you uh build that self-concept and you start seeing yourself as a really good student, and then you have to hold on to that really good student. Okay. And someone could say you're a really bad student. It it really depends on what they say that what that decides what you're going to believe about yourself, and then you're gonna have to live by that construct. And uh if it's oh, you're so smart, then you gotta hold up your end of the smartness deal for forever, and that that can lead to anxiety for sure. If you're trying to keep up that appearance or keep up that self-construct that you've decided.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it was definitely part of my identity growing up was just that intellect and that academic performance. So um yeah, that's something that you know, probably in the last 10 years I had to detach myself from that identity.
SPEAKER_01Um but I would have had a hard time with someone like you. Because we would have been in class and I would have looked over to you and you would have had, since this was the turn of the century, we not everybody had a laptop, you would have had your notes and you would have been serious about taking your notes, and you would have been taking everything down. And for me, I would have been like trying to look like I'm taking notes, but not really locked in. And then I would look at you and I would see your notes, and I would be like, I'm toast because I'm not even close to this, and then I would get self-conscious, insecure, and then I'd be like, I don't like that dude. He's making me think about how I'm not actually really locked in on this class.
SPEAKER_00It's even worse than that, Richard. So if I was in a class my first period, the second period, I was doing the homework for my first period class, I wasn't even paying attention. I was like, I'll just go back and figure it out later and just figure it out on my own. And so each class I was finishing it. So by the end of the day, I wouldn't have any homework.
SPEAKER_01I I would have been mad at you. And it's actually just mad at myself, but you're the I take it out on you because you know what's going on. So um, when did you uh run into uh this young lady Becca? Was it at Union?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So I knew I didn't want to go to Southwestern. Um, and from Texas, Walla Walla was a long ways away. Um my grandparents had retired and they were living in Lincoln at the time, and my older sister um was a year ahead of me and she was at union. So I thought, well, I'll do my two years at union before I transfer. Um so I agreed to go when I decided to go to union, then my grandparents were like, oh, you know what? We're moving to Arizona. And so um, all this idea of having family there, you know, I could stop by, get a hot meal, and you know, do some laundry, whatever, um, kind of that evaporated.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00Um so yeah, I show up my freshman year. Um, Becca and I met in the cafeteria. Um, I remember she sat at my table. She kind of talked about this in her podcast, but um the part she left out was my roommate has sat down at the table first, and Becca's ID card was on her cafeteria tray. It was just like face down. And so my roommate like reached across, grabbed her ID card, and turned it over so you could see her her name or whatever, and she snatched it back and like put it back in her tray. And so I sit down and I do the exact same thing, and she she denies it, but she punched me in the shoulder, and then I was like, This is the girl, right? No, but uh we met so within that first month of college, and then we were dating um at starting October 1st, yeah.
SPEAKER_01October 1st of your freshman year, yeah. Wow, so so we dated. This is the and and for anybody who doesn't know this, I'm actually going there in my mind. This is the old Union cafeteria that was really dark and it had all those pillars in there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Like I like to think about the old, old stuff because I was there my freshman year, and so that's where you met her, and it was just get there in August, six weeks later, you found the girl that you were gonna spend the rest of your life with. That doesn't work out for everybody that way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um, I think we're both fairly confident. I was probably more confident than her that it was going to be, you know, end in marriage. So I knew fairly early on. Um, and I was just really motivated to get through my four years of engineering. A lot of engineers do their degree in five years. Um, I wanted to do it in four just because.
SPEAKER_01So you took a couple 20-hour, 21-hour semesters?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, maxed out the most they'd let me take. Um, and then I was taking music, you know, I was in the um different choirs and bands and things. I was taking those for no credit because I didn't have enough space in my soul, yeah.
SPEAKER_01You would have driven me nuts. So you graduated in four years.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and we had been um waiting to get married. So we got married two weeks after graduation. Um, my mom um hadn't finished her college when they got married, and so my mom went back to school when I was um in middle school, and um I got to go to her graduation when I was in it's like fifth or sixth grade, I think sixth grade. I got to go to her college graduation. Um, and I just remember seeing how hard it was for her to go to school with kids and everything like that. And so I was like, yeah, I want to get all this stuff done before marriage.
SPEAKER_01So did Becca go to Walla Walla with you? Or I mean that's how you know if you're transferring with your boyfriend, that's how you know it's on.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so she was doing um, she had started out as social work, and after a few weeks, um, she quickly changed to um communications. So she's doing mass communications and graphic design as a minor. Um, and it's just kind of the same as engineering. They didn't have the full four-year degree available at Union at that time. Um, so she needed to go somewhere else anyway. Um so it it made sense um in both regards, both for our relationship and for our um careers to transfer to Walla Walla.
SPEAKER_01And so who like God at this point, he's been there for you, he's guided you, he's he seems good. Like what what what was he what what part of your life was God
Meeting Becca And Racing Through College
SPEAKER_01in?
SPEAKER_00You know, I I think it was somewhat minimized through college. I was so busy and focused on other things that I didn't really have time for thinking about God too much. Um, but that wasn't to say that he didn't pop up in uh you know surprising ways. So um I definitely remember um you know the night before uh an exam in college, um, sleeping and having this dream. And in the dream, there's this like chalkboard, and on the chalkboard, I see this man like right working out these problems and things like that. And uh he turned around, it was like Jesus, Jesus was writing like and giving him his tutoring session in my dream. So I was like, that's pretty cool, and then you know it helped me on the test the next day.
SPEAKER_01That's that Ben Carson dream. Yeah, have you heard that? When you saw that where you're like, oh, that happened to me. Yeah, that's super cool. Yeah, and he actually helped you on your test.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01God has never shown up for me like that. He let me fail my tests. Um so you were so busy, but that you could still like he was a part of your life.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it was I was attending things just to get my Jesus points.
SPEAKER_01That's that's what they want. That's how you get to heaven, right?
SPEAKER_00I was like, you know, going to the Vespers or chapels and a church service just to get enough points so I didn't get, you know, called out for not being there. Um, but didn't really think much about it. I was just focused on the other parts of my life. So the spirituality for me was kind of a little bit dead. You know, you'd have little spiritual highs and stuff like that during a chapel or something, like somebody would say, come some preacher would come in and give some message that really moved you, but it was kind of these peaks and valleys.
SPEAKER_01Sure. So yeah, what happened?
SPEAKER_00So yeah, I graduated and the job market was really terrible at that time. Um, so you get married, neither of us have jobs. Um shortly thereafter, Becca found a job, uh kind of a temp type job. Um, and there's somebody at my parents' church who had a connection. Uh, and they're like, Yeah, we could maybe get Aaron a job at at this place. And um so I went interviewed, they gave me the job. Um, so I started my first engineering job, and um, it was a it was a manufacturing company, so we were doing machine design, and um, it was just me and one other engineer. And the other engineer was on his honeymoon when they interviewed me, and so he comes back from his honeymoon, they're like, Here's your new employee, and he had like no say in it or anything.
SPEAKER_02Oh no.
SPEAKER_00Um, and so I wouldn't say that you know, we we got along okay, but we weren't like super chummy or anything like that. Right. Um and after about um three years, um, I remember I got falsely accused of something at work um because I was helping one of the machinists with a question, and the guy that owned the company had come in and just looked over our shoulder and thought that I was asking the machinist for help. And so later I get called into his office and he was like, Yeah, you're not cutting the mustard. And I was like, I didn't know what that means. But um, he was like basically trying to fire me because of whatever. And I was like, you know, you can go talk to the guy because I was helping him, not the other way around. And and he was like, you know, we we made our decision, and so I was like, Well, you know, I basically refused to get fired, kind of like a George Costanza situation.
SPEAKER_03And shut back up, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So I was like, I want to talk to the the vice president because he's a younger guy, and um, so we kind of came to this agreement. I I ended up staying in a different capacity for a little bit. Um, but at that point I knew I needed another job. Um, so I kind of started looking um to see what's out there. Uh it's probably about uh a year later that I got another job. But during that time, I made amends with the guy that you know owned the company, and he really, you know, he was begging me to stay when I turned in my resignation, um, just got past that misunderstanding. Um, but I knew that um at that point the recession was coming. Um, and we did a lot of work for construction industry making materials for them. And so I knew that was going to slow down, so I knew I needed to get out. Um, so I got a job at another engineering firm through a friend's referral and started working there. Um and through the course of working there, I it was it was exciting at first, you know, it was a new area of engineering, um, but it put a lot of strain on me because you know, I had this pressure to perform, you know, my identity was still tied up in my intellect. So having to ask somebody a question, you know, I felt like, man, I should know this, you know. Um, but I'd never done that type of work before. Um and so, you know, I I did perform well um in that capacity. I was there for um just over 10 years, and um during that time um I started taking on more and more projects, and so I started getting um I'd have like upset stomachs a lot, and so I kept Pepto Bismol everywhere. So I had like a bottle of Pepto Bismol on my desk, had a bottle in my glove box of my car, had a bottle in the the side door pocket of my car just in case I couldn't reach the one in the does it taste good?
SPEAKER_01I've never had it.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I hated it. It was like this kind of mint type, it has this aftertaste too. So I hated it.
SPEAKER_01Isn't it pink? Isn't it? It's pink, right? Yeah, it has a minty flavor.
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I've always thought of it as like uh a cool, I don't know, it seems like it would taste good.
SPEAKER_00No, it tastes disgusting, and it has this like aftertaste that sticks with you for a long time, that like weird mint, like medicine mint flavor. Um, and then I had one, I had this bag that I took out when I'd go into the field and do surveys. I had a a bottle in my bag as well. So I had all this peptobismal, and I was I was like, man, what's wrong with my stomach?
SPEAKER_01Like you have an ulcer?
SPEAKER_00So eventually I did get an ulcer, um, but it was just the stress of all the projects um in the deadlines. And so I was just like you know, taking shots of peptobismol multiple times a day. And I ended up at that time I started this is is this normal?
SPEAKER_01Am I the weird one?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So I started um keeping a journal at work, and when I go back now and look at that journal, I'm like, man, my physical health was terrible at that time. And you know, I'd work through sickness. Um, we didn't have remote work back then. You had to be in the office because we had tower computers. Um, and so like I'd have a low-grade fever and I'd be there working. It was like a different time, and I don't know that it's necessarily the company pushing me to that, um, but it was myself not wanting to let people down. So I was pushing myself really hard. Um, so it was um let's see, it was it's probably the summer of 2015. Yeah, summer of 2015. I ended up getting an ulcer so bad that I couldn't get out of bed, like I couldn't move.
SPEAKER_01So that's like a I I know I don't know what an ulcer is. I know that it's a stomach issue, is uh like a hole in the stomach lining or something.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. It just makes everything like ir irritable. Um, but it was just such intense abdominal pain um that I spent um a solid week in bed that I couldn't get up. So at that time we had a an empty bedroom, we had a guest room. Um, and so I just remember staying in that guest room like day and night, and that could bring me like water and and food and stuff like that, but I couldn't eat very much. Um, so I was 35 at that time.
SPEAKER_01That seems pretty young to be stressed out, huh? I don't know. Maybe maybe a lot of people are stressed out by 35.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I think to the point of ulcers was pretty extreme. Um, so at that point, I was like, man, I need another job because I've been asking for a year and a half, you know, to get more resources to help. I was working, um when I left that job, I had 24 projects that I was in charge of. And so 12 of them were in construction and 12 of them were in design. And so that's just a lot. And um, I was like, I can't keep my physical health won't hold up if I keep doing this. So um that's when I started looking for another job. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's uh and at this time Becca's going through her own health.
SPEAKER_00Right. So that was another layer on top of it because um right around that time when I got the ulcer, um, was when Becca was pregnant with our daughter. So that was our third, we have four kids. Um that's
Work Pressure Ulcers And Self-Reliance
SPEAKER_00our third kid, and she had um some level of pre-eclampsia. So she wasn't able to move, move, and do very much. And then I would come home from work and I was just like so stressed, I could just like lay on the couch, and we're just like, How are we going to survive? Um you know, the other the other issue I had was um back when my my first kid was born, our our son, um at that time, both of our families were living here in in Denver, like both of our sets of parents. And my dad um ended up taking a he had to take a different job. He'd been working at Maha Academy, and um he stepped in as an interim principal and then wanted to go back to teaching, but they didn't have a teaching opening for him. And so he ended up taking a job in Texas. So my family had moved to Texas, so they had they're out of the picture of having immediate family help close by. And then Becca's dad, um, he ended up taking a job out in Portland to be the head of chaplaincy out there and um at the Portland Adventist Hospital. And so they had moved to Portland, and so all of a sudden we were expecting our first kid. We have no family in Colorado anymore. Wow, and so we're just by ourselves, and um, you know, it was it was a challenging um but at least you have the ulcer to keep you company, yeah. So that the first pregnancy was um ended up being a C-section, so there's the complications of the um recovery time, and then Becca talked about some of the feeding issues and all the health issues they were going through. Um and so I just remember talking to God at that time when I had the ulcer, and I was like, this is not like an abundant life, this is pretty miserable existence, and so little did I know it was going to get worse. So um I got another job, and now you have 26 projects, 13 design. Yeah, so this is in another uh area of engineering, and um is highly specialized. Um, and so there's a lot of stress about performing and figuring things out. Um, my boss was in New Mexico, and so we were remote from each other, and um Ashram had my anxiety about you know if this is gonna work out. And Becca, after we had our first kid, she stopped working and was just 100% stay-at-home mom. So now I'm the sole source of income as well. And so I had this, you know, yeah, this burden of having to provide for the entire family. And I was like, if this doesn't work out, like I'm gonna have to get another job and you know, we'll have no income for a while. And um, you know, I was very um insecure about, you know, I didn't trust that God would provide for us. I was like, I gotta do it all myself.
SPEAKER_01Did you really, front of your mind, think, I don't think God's gonna do this, or you were just really thinking it's up to me?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I thought, you know, God will help people like they're in extreme poverty. When they need groceries, somebody will drop like a gift card in their mailbox or something. Uh but in our situation, it's like pull yourself up by your bootstraps and take care of yourself. So how'd it go? So um that created more stress, even though I didn't have the the stress from the workload, I had that anxiety of, you know, what if um what if this doesn't work out?
SPEAKER_01And so um you know what now as you keep saying this, I think this is probably common for so many people. Like that they think like this. I don't think this is rare. It feels terrible when it's happening to us, but so many people live like that, right? I mean Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So now, since I've been through having a uh stomach ulcer, I could identify that I had stress, and so now I'm aware that I'm still stressed. And I'm like, well, how do I fix it? And I wasn't sure. So I was just living with the stress. Um and it was um within the first year at that job, um, I had this freak accident and um I remember coming back from a meeting in the conference room, and I sit down at my desk, and um the armrest on my chair just drove right in between the bones on my elbow. And um, it just felt this really intense um like tingling feeling of uh like hitting your funny bone, but like ten times worse, and it lasted for a long time. And um you had an armchair injury, I did, yeah, and apparently it's more common than you'd think. Um and oh sorry, I'm going out of order, I forgot totally forgot another thing. So, okay, this is what happened one year in. Um I went to a hockey game and um with some guys from work, and we went to this German restaurant beforehand, and I remember, you know, since I don't drink, they're they're getting beers and pretzels and stuff like that. And I got this the only vegetarian thing on the eye on the menu was this giant bowl of pasta. And when I say giant bowl, it was like a serving bowl-sized thing. I was like, there's no way I'm gonna eat this whole thing. No, it's just like uh uh have sun-dried tomatoes and some pasta stuff, and so I remember thinking there's no way I'm gonna eat this whole thing. So I eat until I'm filled up, and um, while I'm waiting before the game for my friends to finish, I just keep picking at the food and just keep eating and eating and eating. And I got my stomach is so full, I didn't feel very you know good, just a little bit indigestion. Um, but we went to the game and then after the hockey game, um, get back to the house, it's about midnight, and I remember um I was like, man, I don't feel good. So I went to the bathroom and and sure enough, I I puked and I was like, man, I probably just over ate, you know, or maybe it's just didn't the food didn't set well with me. Um, so I didn't think much about it. Um, and I went to bed, and then the next morning, um, you know, it was a work day, and so I was like, man, I gotta like call in to work. And so I called my boss and let them know I was like, you know, I'm not gonna be in today. You know, I didn't feel good last night. Um, and I was like, you know what, I'll take a shower and just kind of rinse off and then just chill in bed for the day. And so I remember getting in the shower, and as soon as the water hit me, I got super dizzy. And I was like, man, I'm I'm gonna pass out. And so I I was like, I could get out of the shower. So I reached for the for my towel and the bathrod, and before I can reach it, I fainted. And so the way I I fell, my head hit the back of my head right behind my ear, hit the door handle of the bathroom, and it it knocked it off, and then I fell into the drywall that was you know behind the door, like at a 90-degree angle. And so I'm I'm passed out. Um, Becca and the kids are home, so they hear this loud crash, and so they come running up, and um, I come to and I'm like, you know, dripping wet on the floor, butt naked, and I'm right in front of the door. So they open the door a little bit and it kind of hits me, and then like Becca and the kids are all peering in, they're like, What happened? And I was like, I don't know, like, where's my towel? And anyway, we were embarrassed, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So you don't want to be like, I passed out in the shower because that's embarrassing, but then there's also the embarrassing, yeah. You were you concussed?
SPEAKER_00So I felt, you know, I thought, what if I have a concussion? And I was like, well, I'll just, you know, lay down the rest of the day and see how I feel. And I felt okay, you know. Um, it was probably a couple weeks after this. This was right before Christmas. Um, so we drove down to Texas to see my parents, and while we were there, I got this intense vertigo. And I remember just like sitting like in the guest room, just laying down, and like I could get up and maybe walk around for like half an hour and like talk to people and stuff like that, but then I was like, I gotta lay down again. And um, so the whole time we were there, I just had this really bad vertigo, and um we're we're driving back, so this is like a 12-hour drive, and I was like, I can't drive. I was like, Becky, you gotta drive. I was like, I everything's like just moving around and stuff, it's not safe for me to drive. So I remember just sitting in the back. Um, and I think at that point I had a little bit of Pepto because that was like my comfort. It was like maybe a you know a habit that I had developed as like, you know, the placebo effect. Um, so I was just sitting in the back of the van, like drinking some uh Pepto until we got home, and I was like, all right, I gotta see my doctor. So I go into the doctor and they they do a test and they're like, you don't have a concussion. Um they were like, you know what, you should go see um an ENT specialist. And so they're like, you know, if if it like give it six weeks, and if it doesn't go away, then go see this ENT. Um so that's earnose throat doctor. And um I waited the six weeks, and I was still dealing with vertigo. And so I go to this ENT specialist, and they're like, you know, you got these crystals in your ear, and they could have got dislodged, um, that could affect your balance and stuff like that. And so they checked everything and they're like, no, it's fine. Um, they're like um, you know, it looks like you have a little bit of swelling in your eardrum. So I had hit right behind my ear, and it put a quarter inch dent in my skull, and so it had blocked the fluid so it couldn't drain properly out of my ear. So it was making me feel like I was uh I was dizzy.
SPEAKER_01Um what was the whole thing with the stomach? You just ate too much pasta, and that's what made you pass out in the shower?
SPEAKER_00So I think it was the the water when it hit me, just having low blood sugar. Um, and I I still had some stress because I was feeling guilty about not going to work because of that pressure to perform or do well on my job.
SPEAKER_01And so I had some anxiety plus the heat of the water, uh low blood sugar.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I just got out of bed too fast and the blood still wasn't flowing all the way up to my brain or something, and just it was lightheaded and passed out.
SPEAKER_01I had something like that happen to me and I
The Shower Fall And Two Years Of Vertigo
SPEAKER_01was super embarrassed. That's why I said, like, yeah, you're because you can't really explain it. But so when the doc says that thing about your ear, what was the next move?
SPEAKER_00So I started chewing a lot of gum. So um the the moving your jaw like helps work that area and kind of drains that ear canal.
SPEAKER_01Interesting.
SPEAKER_00And so I I developed this cinnamon gum addiction. Um and so I was like, I had to have I was buying gum in these packs of like 250 pieces of gum at a time, and it was like chew gum all day long. Um, I remember going to work and I'd have to hold my hand on my head to prop myself up because everything felt like it was spinning. And this is like after uh 12 weeks still, like everything was just spinning. I'd walk down the hallway and I was like, I had to put my hand up and hold the wall so I didn't fall over. And I was contemplating, I was like, man, I might need to get like a walking cane or something so I don't just like fall out of my seat or you know, fall stumble when I'm in the hallway. I remember going down like stairs, I had to go super slow because everything was just dizzy. This vertigo was still there for months afterwards. Um and the other complication on that was I really messed up my my neck. So the combination of hitting the impact so hard and then constantly kind of leaning my tilting my head as I supported it while I was working, um, I got an X-ray and they're like, Yeah, your neck is 15 degrees like out of alignment. So I started doing physical therapy and going to a chiropractor and helping straighten that out.
SPEAKER_01But um what was more helpful, the physical therapy or the chiropractor?
SPEAKER_00So the physical therapy was good for um I guess rebuilding the muscles around the neck to get them back in alignment. And the chiropractor was good for like that instant relief of popping those joints, like expanding the joints out and kind of realigning them in the interim. So they each had their own purpose. Um it helped a little bit. Um, over time, the vertigo would would come in in waves then. So usually I could make it um, you know, the first 12 months, it was just like 24-7 vertigo. And I remember laying in my bed, closing my eyes, and just feeling like I was falling, like spinning and falling at the same time, even with my eyes closed. And I remember telling God at that time, I was like, I don't know if I want to keep living with this. You know, I don't know if I can live with vertigo. And so eventually it started to dissipate a little bit, and it would be like I could go the morning at work being fine, and then in the afternoon it would hit and I'd get dizzy and I'd get all sweaty, and um it just created more anxiety because I was like, oh no, here we go again. Like, I'm gonna be dizzy for the rest of the day. Um, and eventually, after like a year and a half, it got to the point where I would get dizzy spells for like an hour and then it would go away. Um, so it probably took about two full years until the vertigo completely left.
SPEAKER_01Wow. And you were telling me a different story, and then you had to go back to this one. What was the next story?
SPEAKER_00So that was at that point the vertigo was completely gone.
SPEAKER_01Um but now you had more stress.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I sit down at my desk and um I hit right between my elbow joint, um, the chair, it popped the uh bursa. I'm not a medical person, so I'll I'll get the best I can. It it ruptured the bursa in my elbow. And so I remember that intense tingling, it finally went away. And um by the end of the day, I was just like, it was super tender, like it was really hot around my elbow. And um turns out I had an infection, and it was like my body was getting a fever to try to fight it off. And so I remember driving home and Becca was somewhere with the kids, so I called a friend, and I was like, um, I was like, I need, I need help, I need to go to urgent care. And so I got home, a friend helped me. I got to urgent care, and they're like, Yeah, you got this infection, you need to take some antibiotics, and that should clear it up. So they gave me a prescription. I got these uh oral antibiotics, and I remember trying to take them and I couldn't keep anything down. I couldn't keep water down. Like I'd try to take the pill and I'd I just puke it up, and um, then my elbow started swelling, and I got this big red area, and it just started moving down my forearm. And I was like, man, this is not good. Becca came and looked at me and she's like, you know, you need to go to the hospital. And so it was about midnight, and so the kids were all asleep, and I was like, you know, it's midnight, there's nobody on the road, the hospital is five minutes away. I can probably make it on my own, um, just driving with my right arm because I hit my left arm, the elbow on my left arm. So I made it to the ER and um they admitted me, and they were like, Oh yeah, I just need you need antibiotic. And I told them I had this antibiotic, but I couldn't keep it down. So they're like, we'll give you an IV and give you the antibiotic that way. And so I spent the night in the ER, and I remember one of the nurses came in during the middle of the night, and she was like, Yeah, your heart rate needs to go down before they'll discharge you. And I don't know what's I didn't at that point didn't know it was normal. So my heart rate was like 150.
SPEAKER_01And so that's like running like sprinting.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So normally, you know, it's around like 70, 80, something like that, right? I didn't know that that was like super abnormal. And so it was about five in the morning. I remember just thinking to myself, like, maybe if I hold really still, my heart rate will go down. And it did start to drop. I was sitting there watching the monitor all night long, and um this new doctor came in, they switched shifts, and he was like, All right, we're gonna send you home. And I made a comment. I was like, Yeah, I was like, I'm glad my heart rate got down because to me it was down to 120, and I was like, that's pretty good. He looked at me, he was like, Oh man, he was like, Wait, we can't let you go, hold on. And I was like, What? And so I was like, Man, I have to stay in the hospital longer. I was really excited to go home.
SPEAKER_01Did you feel it in your body? Did you feel yeah?
SPEAKER_00My heart was racing, it just felt like my like tightness in my chest, like um, all this pressure.
SPEAKER_01And so from the was it from the the It's the infection.
SPEAKER_00So I had um turns out I had sepsis, so I was going into septic shock. And so they're like, We need to do surgery because you have like 24 hours or you'll be dead. So it had gotten under my skin, I forget what that condition was called. The infection spread there and it got into my bloodstream.
unknownWhat?
SPEAKER_00And so they're like, Yeah, you need to have surgery today. Um, they're like, We'll see if we can find a doctor. And I was like, You said I have 24 hours, you better find a doctor. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01Mercy.
SPEAKER_00So anyway, I I go through surgery, they operated on my elbow, and um then I had six weeks of taking um uh medication to you know, I had to give myself IVs at home, which Becca did most of it. Um is really bizarre feeling because you refrigerate these vials and then you have to take it like twice a day. And so I had a port um in my arm that ran an IV like through my vein down to my heart. And so you hook up to the port and you inject this refrigerated liquid into you. Cold. You just feel that coldness going through your body through that area where the where the vein is.
SPEAKER_01So um did you get some workers' comp for that chair?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I did.
SPEAKER_01That's crazy, man. Yeah, I've never you said it's very common. I've never heard of anything like that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um, so like during that time, I'd been, you know, as I said, as a kid, very independent and you know, self-sufficient, take care of myself. And so going through these situations was very hard on me. Um, and I was like, you know, who's going to take care of me? Because you know, Becca's got her hands full of the kids, and um, you know, I just felt helpless. Um and so I didn't at that time I didn't trust God that He was you know looking out for me. And I was like, I heard people talk about the 30s is the best decade of your life, and I was like, man, this is terrible. It was the worst decade in my life.
SPEAKER_01Wow. So this whole elbow thing, how old were you, 37, 38 when this happened?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, 38. So around the time that happened.
SPEAKER_01And then uh I'm guessing COVID's pretty this is like 2017, 18, something like around the time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, this is this is 2018. Um yeah, so for about six weeks I had my arm, the elbow that had been operated on was in this like splint. Um, so I couldn't use it. And then my right arm, since I had that IV that they put the um that pick line through, they're like, you're not supposed to raise your arm above your elbow or your shoulder. Um, you're not supposed to lift more than 10 pounds, um, you're not supposed to do repetitive motions like typing or anything like that. And so I was like felt like both my arms were out of commission.
SPEAKER_01Wow.
SPEAKER_00Um I remember one day I was I was home and uh just like the swelling in my hand, um, it it just got all puffy and yeah, it looked like the size of a grapefruit, and it was just all that IV fluids and stuff was pooling in that area. So um, and I I really didn't like medicine or doctors before that. Um I just kind of was like, I'm a generally healthy person. Um, like I take care of myself, and you know, doctors are for like you know, people that really need it because they're they're desperate for medical intervention. So now I'm now I'm one of those patients. So um I had to shift my mindset on that a little bit. Um post post surgery on the elbow, um, they were giving me these IVs, and um, it would last for like half an hour and then it would uh burst the vein that it was in, and so like the blood would start pooling under your skin. And so I ended up getting 14 different IV locations because it kept uh rupturing the blood vessels.
SPEAKER_01You looked like an addict. Wow. So then um after all of this, we're a few years away from the worldwide pandemic. I don't know if that affected you. Uh, and where
Elbow Infection Sepsis And Helplessness
SPEAKER_01God is He's a part of your life, but you can't trust him really. You're not really what happened next, man.
SPEAKER_00So right before COVID, um, you know, I I'd regained my health. So I recovered from the elbow, vertigo stuff was mostly gone. Um, I had stress, but I was able to recognize it and um just kind of cope with it. Um so things were kind of going back to normal health-wise. Um, Becca's seeing uh breakthrough in her health as well, and for the kids, and so it's kind of back into a regular routine. Um and I was really just engaged with volunteering at church and doing a variety of things. And so for me, it was just about keeping busy. Um my relationship with God was very um, I guess I wanted something there. Like I saw other people that had deeper relationships with God, but I had a hard time seeing it for myself. So um when Becca had some of her breakthrough, um, she was going through that intense period where she was praying in the closet and staying up, you know, for like 36 hours straight, stuff like that. It was really intense. And I remember thinking to myself, like, like, why don't I desire that? Like, um, you know, what's different about me? And so one night I prayed to God and I was like, you know, if you're real, like speak to me or something. And so I went to sleep, and then shortly thereafter I woke up and I remember distinctly hearing God's voice, and it wasn't like the voice in your head, this is like the voice in the room, like audibly hearing God's voice, and he said, You are loved. And I remember you know, feeling really excited about it or whatever, and I was like, Okay, cool. You know, I I don't know how to describe that feeling to anybody else. Um and unfortunately, uh subconsciously I didn't really believe that statement that I was loved at the time. And so it took years until that finally clicked for me. So come 2020, um Love Reality comes to uh Denver to Life Source. And I remember hearing Morgan give her testimony there. And it didn't make sense to me. And I was like, I I don't get it. Like, I just wasn't comprehending it. And so Becca talked to Jonathan that weekend. Um, and that was helpful for her. And I remember afterwards seeing Morgan in the in the foyer, and I was like, should I go talk to her? And I was like, I don't know. Like her story just didn't resonate with me, so I passed on it, and anyway, didn't think much about it. So Becca then has this huge breakthrough of freedom after that. Um, and I remember thinking like it was kind of that love reality is this weird cult thing that Becca's joined now. And so I was like, I don't get it. I I was fine with her, you know, attending the Bible studies and um going to the different things, but I'd listen to them and I was like, I don't understand. Like, why is it not clicking for me?
SPEAKER_01So what was the thing that was not clicking?
SPEAKER_00Everything I just excitement, yeah. Yeah, it's like I think theologically, some of the things like the concepts, I was like, I've heard these things before, but didn't really hear them, or like they didn't understand them. Um so during that time, I remember calling. Um, I got Tyler's number and I called him. This is when he is in Hawaii, and we talked, and I was like, okay, I think it's starting to make a little bit of sense, but it still wasn't fully clicking for me. Um I tried talking to several other people and I still couldn't grasp it. So uh about a year later, uh 2021 in September, uh, we hosted something at Denver South. You're there. That's the first time we met. Yeah. And so I was there still just uh supporting Becca. I like they needed somebody to run the sound system. So I was like, sure.
SPEAKER_01I remember Becca saying, My husband doesn't get this. Yeah. And she's like, talk to him. And I was like, whenever somebody says that, you're like, oh, okay. And what am I gonna do? Go over and be like, what shall we say? Then are we to continue and send the grace may bound by no? I'll just be like, What's up, man? And so but those you know, people they just want their loved ones to get it so badly because it's changed our lives.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So we talked about at that time, I don't know if you remember this, but um I talked about one of our friends who had died of cancer recently. And she was um around our age. Um they're a close uh family to us. They had kids the same age range as us. Um her husband was an engineer also. Um so we just had a lot in common. Um and when she got sick, um you know, Becca and I were stepping out in, you know, healing at that time. And so I remember Becca going to the hospital and praying over her um for days at the end of her life, and like God didn't come through. And so I was kind of bitter at God, and I was like, you know, why didn't he take care of this family? Because I was like, they have three young kids that are, you know, probably at that time under the age of 10. It's now this single dad's got to take care of these three kids. And I was like, why wouldn't God step in and heal her so that their mother would still be there? And um, I can't even remember what you said. It's like, but I remember at the end you're just like you're you're talking about whatever, and you're like, Yeah, you've got it, you've got it. And I was like thinking to myself, like, I don't. I was like, I it still doesn't make sense to me. Um so then later um that weekend, I was in the kitchen just taking out the trash at the church, and um Cheryl corners me and she says that infamous phrase, like, how's it landing? And I was just like so mad because it's this tiny kitchen, and I'm blocked, I can't get out the doorway. And I was just like, Yeah, it's not, and then I just like left. So after that, I I talked to Alicia Gonzalez. Um I talked to her in the parking lot, and I was like, Why isn't this landing? I was so frustrated um and didn't get it. And yeah, she said some things that were a little bit helpful, but I still didn't get it. So um, you know, I was like, what's wrong with me? Like, I I am I just dense or what? Um so it's two years, another two years pass, and I start to get more engaged with um, you know, I'll kind of watch the internet church when Becca's watching it just over her shoulder, or um, we do these gatherings monthly here in in Denver with people, um, and I'd start attending those. Um, but I was still not getting it. I was just there.
SPEAKER_01And so were you resentful of it?
SPEAKER_00I was earlier on, um, and I think I was a little skeptical of Eddie because Eddie was uh really integral in discipling um Cheryl and Becca and some of the other um ladies here, and I didn't necessarily trust him, and so I was kind of skeptical every time Becca would be like messaging him or something like that. Um and so to Eddie's credit, he kind of picked up on that and kind of backed off a little bit. Um, but you know, I remember going through, you know, it's kind of a breakdown of being like, I need something to change in my life. I don't get this, like I want God to feel more real to me. And so Becca starts listening through, like you could talk to and listing up all these people, all these guys like associated with love reality. And I was like, man, it just doesn't feel right. Like, and she finally gets down to Morgan,
Hearing God Say You Are Loved
SPEAKER_00and I was like, Okay, I guess. I was like, for some reason, like when she said Morgan in my spirit, it felt like that was the person I was supposed to talk to. And I was like, but like logically, it doesn't make sense because I heard her story when she came to Denver in 2020 and it didn't resonate with me. I've listened to her podcast, and I was still just like kind of dumbfounded as like what what it was. Um, but the spirit had been working on my heart, and um we called it was um November 1st, uh, 2023, and we did a phone call, it was maybe an hour long, and um everything just kind of clicked.
SPEAKER_01And um was it with Tyler and Morgan or just Morgan?
SPEAKER_00Just Morgan.
SPEAKER_01And normally I'm imagining Morgan getting a phone call from someone that she doesn't know, and she's probably like, okay, like, but it doesn't like how did that go? Was it strange to start the the conversation?
SPEAKER_00We had texted beforehand, like for a few days, um, back and forth, and then I was like, I'm ready, let's do a call. And so I remember we're just like, let's do it November 1st because um it's like right after Halloween, or anyway, so I just remember that date. Um and so that's when I realized that my story was like really parallel to Morgan's because it was a lot about pride, and so just letting go of all that um identity of intellectual performance-based stuff was just pride.
SPEAKER_01Um You were too smart for your own good in this in a sense, yeah. And so what did she say that helped you to see that?
SPEAKER_00So I think you know, Morgan would probably say it was like almost like on autopilot, and she wasn't really talking that much. I I think I was just at the point where I was ready to like bare my heart and just kind of let things out that been you know, things came to the surface. We just prayed about it. Um at the end I prayed and um I realized that I was having a hard time accepting God's love because um there are some people that I hadn't forgiven in my life. Um and so I prayed forgiveness over that and um released those people, and then that's what allowed me to let God start loving me. So probably that moment when I heard God's voice say you are loved, um it was probably eight years had passed until I finally understood it.
SPEAKER_01And when you mean you understood it, it means like it's one thing for you to hear that God loves you, and another thing to be loved by God.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so that picture I had earlier in as a kid of God being this stern, judgmental you know, guy was like changed now. That God loved me, that he had a purpose and a plan for me, um, that he wanted he desired good things, um, that he wanted me to live an abundant life. Um all those things. So my my view on God changed. My view on Jesus was always kind of the same. He's a cool dude, but um then I understood God. Um and then the the other part that changed for me was um going forward from that was understanding the Holy Spirit more. So before I thought he was this mythical being, I didn't really understand um who he was or what he did. Um and as I said, I'd been praying for years as a kid for wisdom. Um and so then God started using um the gift of prophecy in my life. Um, and I think I feel like that's an area where the Adventist Church is pretty silent on it. Um, when you hear a prophecy, it's like either talking about the voice of prophecy or talking about Daniel in Revelation. Um, I even remember remember once as a volunteer um taking a quiz on spiritual gifts, and this was through the some website through the Adventist Church, and I scored like maxed out on prophecy, and it was like, oh, you know what, you'd make a good church board member. Like that's what spirit that's what the gift of prophecy is used for, making good board decisions.
SPEAKER_01So what does it actually look like?
SPEAKER_00So the key to me was like love. Once once you're able to root that in love, it becomes a gift of the spirit that you can use to show other people God's love. So um I would have lots of dreams, and um, a lot of times I'd have a dream about something very specific. And I I normally just dream a lot anyway, but there's a a difference where I can tell that a specific dream is from God, it just feels different. I don't know how to describe it, other than I was like, I know this is like a spiritual dream, it has importance, and so I'd get a dream about something, and I would tell, um, I'd be like, okay, the next day I'd call up so and so, and I was like, man, I had this dream, tell them the dream, and I was like, you know, does that all make sense or whatever? And they'd be like, oh yeah, like I'm totally going through this situation and it it helps explain something or whatever, you know. And so I was like, okay, this is you know, still having to struggle, these old feelings of pride. I was like, what if I share something and it doesn't resonate? What if um what if I'm totally off base? Are they going to view me as like a crazy person or like a false prophet or something like that, right? And so I was like, you know, I finally got over it and I was like, okay, I'll I'll you know just release these messages that God has. Um and sometimes I would see, you know, if I saw somebody, I'd have a specific um vision or a thought about something about their life, and then I'd go up to and talk to them about it. Um so I know specifically there's this one time where I sat next to a random lady. Uh she came and sat next to me actually, and um I remember she we got to talking and and she was like, Oh yeah, I got this like kind of skin condition, and I gotta take these steroids for it and stuff like that. And I was like, Okay. Um the meeting finished, and and she left, and I was like, man, God kept telling me, is like, go get her. I was you need to invite her to whatever meeting and have people pray for her and she'll be healed. And I was like, it's a complete stranger, but like God kept telling me. So sure enough, I I ran out, cat caught up to her in the parking lot, invited her, got her phone number, and um, you know, she came to the meeting and we um prayed for her and she was healed. It's like it was an amazing story. Um but you know, just hearing God's voice and understanding like what He wanted me to do, and it's all about helping people um experience God's love and hear the messages that they have, like when
Forgiveness Breakthrough And Spiritual Gifts
SPEAKER_00they can't hear for themselves.
SPEAKER_01Kind of like what happened for you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. And um I'd I'd say the the way prophecy um kind of built up in my life is a interesting story. So I know you're a Chiefs fan. So if you remember um what year uh they were playing the Eagles, the first time they played the Eagles in the Super Bowl.
SPEAKER_01Maybe 2022, 23.
SPEAKER_00Okay, yeah. So I remember being at a Super Bowl party, and um before each play, well, not every single play, but before key plays, I was like, I know what's gonna happen. I was like, there's gonna be a false start penalty on this player, and then sure enough it would happen. And I'd started like just casually mentioning to some of my friends sitting on the couch, I was like, Oh, there's gonna be a fumble, pick six, and or you know, fumble scoop and score. Yeah, and then sure enough, it happened. And this happened for like four plays in a row, and I was like, kind of got freaked out, and I was like, I better stop saying it.
SPEAKER_01I need to go to Vegas right now, right?
SPEAKER_00So for me, um football, just watching football. Um, even though I moved to Texas, I couldn't become a Cowboys fan. So I as a Chiefs fan uh to this day. Let's go. Um and watching football was a big stronghold in my life. And so um I remember God using that and showing me like the outcomes of the game or things that are going to happen. So I wouldn't sit there and be sweating bullets as watching it or be like, I can't miss the game, I gotta go watch it. Um, and it kind of released me from um, I guess gave me freedom over that and gave me a lot more time back in my life.
SPEAKER_01This is a spiritual gift, man.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And it's for the blessing of the body of Christ.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and in some some of these areas at the beginning, it feels like it's it was blessing me more than other people. It's just showing me that it was real and training me up. It was like with the training wheels on, and so the other area was um regarding uh woman's health, I guess. We'll say pregnancies and things like that. So God would tell me, like, yeah, that lady's pregnant. And so my wife hates this because she's like, you never, even if they look pregnant, you never say it, no, you never say anything. And I was like, man, I gotta say something. And so sure enough, I'd go talk to somebody I I'd see at church, and I'd be like, Are you pregnant? And they'd be like, Yeah, I just found out. I I told my husband yesterday, like nobody else knows, and um, stuff like that. And even um, people I worked with that were remote in different offices out of state, they'd call me up and I was like, Man, this is gonna sound weird, but are you pregnant? And they'd be like, I am, like, how do you know? And so God just showing me through that that I could trust the word that he was given, giving to me.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_00Um, and then it kind of went a little bit off the rails. So um after you experience that a little bit, you get almost like a pressure to perform, or like you want to be able to give a word to somebody or uh speak something positive over somebody's life, and you can start to force it. So I remember um specific situation where I was like, man, I'm kind of getting this vision of like this lady being pregnant, and I was like, Do I say something or not? And I didn't have clear confirmation, but I went ahead and said it anyway, and I just regretted it because I was like, it could have been more harmful than good. So at that point, I realized I needed to use a lot more discernment. And so um, you know, just relying on wisdom. Um I think the the basis for me was revealed um you needed to study the Bible more, like have that truth embedded. So discernment boiled down to if I hear something, does it align with God's character? First off, well, how do I understand God's character? It's like by reading the Bible and understanding. So I started to get into my Bible some more. Um, and then the second thing was um had a spiritual mentor who uh told me, you can hear something from God, but sometimes you need to hear a little bit more. And so they said, when you hear something, just ask God, is there anything else I need to know? And like, should I share this with this person? Um, and sometimes we can rely on, like, oh, you get a kind of a picture or an image of something and you provide an interpretation that's from your own spirit and not from God. And so just being careful of what do I say to people and making sure that it's not my own voice coming through and that it's God's voice. And so um, that's been the other part of discernment that's been um that I've been practicing more recently.
SPEAKER_01Wow, man. God has really taken you on a journey, and I know you've been a blessing to so many people, you're a blessing to us. Um as we wrap this thing up, as you think back on this guy who you know didn't think that God was super involved in his life, and you're having the pasta incident. Sorry, I just think that's and the and the chair incident and all this stuff with your wife. If you could go and talk to this guy and put your arm around him, how would you minister to this guy at that point in his life?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I definitely my advice would be you can trust God. And I'd follow it follow that up with saying, um, you know, lies. We don't believe lies because they're true. We believe them because we choose to believe them. And so all those years that I kind of dismissed hearing that hearing God's voice say you are loved. Like I just wish I could go back and have believed that from the start.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, what about that person right now that's listening that wants to believe that they're loved, but there's something blocking it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'd say um, ask God to give you a gift of love, whether that's somebody coming and encouraging you, whether that's finding a special passage in the Bible, but God has the best for you. Um, he wants us to worship him in spirit and in truth. So God wants to bless you with spiritual gifts um and see those working in your life.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Man, thank you so much for sharing your story. I had no idea that we were gonna go through the medical journal and learn all this stuff, but just even to see how God has made you this spiritual person. That's a huge blessing to hear that it's an encouragement. And like I said, you're you and your family have been such a blessing and an encouragement to us. And I know you're out there um just coming across people and blessing their lives. So thank you so much for for sharing this story, man. Your your testimony.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, thank you for the opportunity.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely, man.