Death to Life podcast

#267 Josh Rittenbach: A North Dakota Farmer Finds Real Righteousness In Christ

• Love Reality Podcast Network

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 1:45:37

We talk with Josh Rittenbach about growing up with a transactional view of God and how shame fed addiction, anger, and collapse in his marriage. We also share the moment the gospel finally felt real and how forgiveness, identity in Christ, and the secret place changed the way Josh lives and fathers his girls.
• growing up Adventist in small-town North Dakota and learning to perform for approval
• separating God from Jesus in childhood imagination and living under a courtroom mindset
• carrying shame from early trauma and trying to stay numb through substances and constant noise
• guilt over “messing up God’s plan” and the slide into weed, cigarettes, and legal trouble
• attempting a reset through theology, psychology, church involvement, and outward stability
• life as a farmer and father while hiding pill use to function and avoid silence
• quitting opioids, facing withdrawals, and hitting emotional rock bottom through divorce
• hearing the message that Jesus is enough and discovering right standing in Christ
• reading Scripture with new hunger and learning what righteousness, justification, and sanctification mean
• Matthew 18 reframing forgiveness as receiving radical mercy and releasing shame
• identity as a beloved son and letting Jesus handle what we cannot fix

💰 DONATE & SUPPORT our Ministry: lovereality.org/give
👍 LIKE us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/alovereality
📷 FOLLOW us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/riyoung31/
📚 LEARN more at our site: lovereality.org


Join us for the best gathering on the internet, Internet Church. Every other Friday. Find out at www.lovereality.org/circles

Continue growing with friends! Join a circle over at www.lovereality.org/circles

Cold Open On Jesus Enough

SPEAKER_00

The world doesn't think that the gospel can change your life, but we know that it can. And that's why we want you to hear these stories: stories of transformation, stories of freedom, people getting free from sin and healed from sin because of Jesus. This is death to life.

SPEAKER_01

And so as you're talking, like in my mind, I can see like all this garbage in my life just like being played out, and I know that Jesus is enough. That he's enough to handle it all, he's enough to deal with it all. And and like there's this moment where I'm like, yeah, but can we talk about this thing? Can this thing be brought to the light? Can that thing be brought to the light? And it's it's all just crashing into the rock. It's Jesus. It's Jesus is enough. He can handle this.

SPEAKER_00

Yo, welcome to the Death to Life podcast. My name is Richard Young, and today's guest I have met in person once, two Fourth of Julys ago. And since we're creeping up on the 4th of July, I thought, you know what? Let's bring him in. Let's bring in Josh Rittenbach. And we got him. We have him. We're about to do the pod. Uh, you're gonna you're gonna love this episode. It's about someone who goes from death to life. And uh I'm excited. So buckle up and strap in. Love y'all, appreciate y'all. Here is Josh. Josh. Is that the only time we've ever met? Have we only met what that one time? And I didn't even know you that well. And I was like, hey dude. I wish I would have spent more time with you, but is that the only time we met?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it would have been nice to get to get a little more time.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, you were there for like five hours, then you had to take off too, right?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, well, I think we we came in and we were there. What was that maybe Friday evening? And then we came back for church Saturday and hung out for the baptism. But I I had I had the kids with me and they they wanted to be doing their own thing.

SPEAKER_00

So I got you. Uh where where you know, if if you hear your voice, you can tell that you're from the north and not from the northeast. Uh were you North Dakota your whole life? Where do we start in this story?

SPEAKER_01

Yep, North Dakota my whole life. Um Jamestown most of my life.

SPEAKER_00

And that's where you live now.

SPEAKER_01

That that's where I live now. Uh went to Lincoln for school, went to Bismarck for high school, Fargo for school. So yeah, pretty much here my whole life.

SPEAKER_00

How many people live in Jamestown? Like 16,000, I think. So

Meeting Josh And Setting The Story

SPEAKER_00

it's like the size of Hutchinson, Minnesota. Yep.

SPEAKER_01

Yep, it's very close.

SPEAKER_00

We have similar restaurants as Hutch. Do you have do you have a pizza ranch?

SPEAKER_01

Yes, we have a pizza ranch.

SPEAKER_00

You have one random Chinese restaurant that is okay?

SPEAKER_01

Two. Two or two, two.

SPEAKER_00

Two Mexican restaurants, one that's really big and one that's kind of like a hole in the wall?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

You know what? I love I love the Midwest. So your your folks are Scandinavian?

SPEAKER_01

Uh German, German, Russian.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. How do they end up in Jamestown? They came off the boat and then landed there.

SPEAKER_01

Uh I think my my dad's side is from when they moved, migrated here um closer to my not.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

And then I think my mom's side has always kind of been in this area close to here.

SPEAKER_00

So that accent is that's that's here to stay. You've had that one since you were a little boy.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's not going anywhere.

SPEAKER_00

So yeah, man. Uh give us a little background to start the story. Tell us.

SPEAKER_01

Um Kay, grew grew up Adventist. Um I guess our our house was not the strictest, but also not the most lenient. Um button.

SPEAKER_00

Where were you swimming on Sabbath? Where was that? Was that was it all the way in?

SPEAKER_01

It depends. It probably depends on like what what stage in life? Because as I got into high school, a lot of that, a lot of those things relaxed. And I mean, we'd we'd go spend the day on the boat on the lake on Sabbath afternoon.

SPEAKER_00

Wild. Okay, what about eating meat which wouldn't have happened as a little kid? But what about vegetarian? Were you vegetarian?

SPEAKER_01

No.

SPEAKER_00

But because but your is your dad a farmer?

SPEAKER_01

He was a farmer, yeah, but uh I guess he had animals when he was a kid growing up on the farm. So yeah, none of none of my side of the family was vegetarian.

SPEAKER_00

Don't you think do you know any farmers that are vegetarian? I feel like most farmers they like it's it's typical Midwest, you have meat and then three vegetables, meat, potato, and then a vegetable. That's what you're doing.

SPEAKER_01

I do, I do, I do know a couple, but not not many. Not many.

SPEAKER_00

So, okay, so you're that that says something. If you were a farmer and you were vegetarian, that would be on the other side. That'd be a little bit more. Probably. So you grew up in that kind of household. Um the Jamestown church, was it popping when you were growing up?

SPEAKER_01

Um, yeah, probably more than it is now. Like I the numbers, I have no idea, but I know we have uh a grade school, Adventist Grade School in town, which is where I went. And I think before I went there, they had three teachers, three classrooms, and it was steady decline ever since then.

SPEAKER_00

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

Which was a lot of years ago.

SPEAKER_00

Not too many years ago. We're not old.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

We're we're we're just we're not young anymore, but we're not no. So growing up, yeah. Um, who was God to you growing up? Like what how was he presented to you?

SPEAKER_01

Um okay, that's that's a difficult one to answer. Um just because I I don't know, so I'm gonna make some educated guesses based on experience, I guess.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Um God and Jesus were different, right? Jesus, Jesus was the cool one, the nice one, the one who who probably loved you. Um God was maybe a little bit more angry. Um one of the one of the things that's really stuck out to me the last couple years, you know, thinking back on childhood, was um some of the Sabbath school lessons, right? If we're we're talking about kindness or helping, there's always this this phrase that gets used in the Sabbath school lesson. Like you make God happy when you're helping your parents. And I was the type of kid who quickly could latch on to the reverse of that statement. And so, so if if I'm not helping my parents, God's not happy.

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_01

If if I'm not being kind, God's not happy, and he's not happy with me.

SPEAKER_00

Don't you think people meant that though? Say say that again? Don't you think that that's what they were trying to come across? Like the Sabbath school teacher was trying to make you believe that?

SPEAKER_01

I I don't know. I I don't know. Is it just because I've thought about it, like is or is it just this way that we are attempting to try to teach kids like, hey, be be a good helper. It's good to be, you know, it's good to be good. It's good to be a good helper. There's let's do those things.

SPEAKER_00

I I think so. This when you're talking about God not being the cool one, this idea, and I don't know if this is an Adventist idea or Christian, but that um God is sitting there as this judge, and we're in the court of law, and Jesus is my representative, meaning he's my lawyer and he's arguing my case to God, and God's like, all right, let him in, he's with you. Like when I read John chapter five and maybe 2019 or 2020, and Jesus is like, uh, all authority has been given to me, and God doesn't judge, I'm the judge, and if you believe in me, you've already gone from death to life. When I read that, I was like, Hold up, hold up, hold up. And I I immediately did a Vespers talk to a bunch of high school kids about John chapter 5, and I'm like, God's not even the one judging you, it's Jesus. And if you believe in him, you don't come under judgment, you've already gone from death to life. And the adults there were like, hmm. And yet the Bible does say that. It literally says that.

SPEAKER_01

You do not come under judgment.

SPEAKER_00

But I didn't I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_01

Neither neither did I. Neither did I.

SPEAKER_00

The Sabbath school teacher didn't say that. They were the the argument was the courtroom argument, and God's God's needing to be convinced about me.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so so then I guess like if that if that's if that's the view, then things become very transactional.

SPEAKER_04

For sure.

SPEAKER_01

And and so that was to some degree or another, that's how I live most of my life. Was it was a transaction. Um and I would say I I can probably pick that theme out at at just about any point in my life up until the last three years. And then that table got flipped.

SPEAKER_00

It's a transaction. So how did the it being a transaction manifest in like how you were living your life? Give me some examples.

SPEAKER_01

Um as a kid, I would well, I would try to be. I mean, I was probably the teacher's pet as a kid, and um you know, trying to always keep my behavior in line, especially around adults, that maybe became more prevalent and as I got older. Um but yeah, you're I mean you're trying to earn something through your behavior.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, needing affirmation for sure.

Growing Up Adventist In Jamestown

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and I I don't like I don't know that like the affirmation side, I don't know that I would like necessarily need them to to affirm me. Um but I d I definitely tried to line that behavior up with what they expected up until a certain point in my life. So um yeah, we're from there. So that was that was a young kid. Um I think the big the big thing for me, the thing that that I got freed from was was shame. And that that shame started as a young child. Um I suppose it probably does for for most of us who learn how to carry it. For me, it was as Dan would say, and I appreciate his language, um, I was touched wrong as a kid. And and out of that, I I put on shame and I put it on in a hurry. Like thinking back, I was probably it's probably that experience where where it started for me.

SPEAKER_00

I've heard someone recently say that all men are on the precipice of shame. Like we're right there, and it doesn't take much to just push us over the edge, and then shame leads itself to all sorts of maladies, addiction, anger, fear, resentment, all these things. Shame is the main main culprit, and the only solution to shame is worthiness of being loved if you believe that you are actually worthy of being loved. Brene Brown goes into this all the time. And I don't know if she she might be a Christian, but she's on to something when she's just like, Yeah, vulnerability is stopping shame, and to be vulnerable, you need to know you're loved.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, uh Brene's good. Brene's good. Yeah, she's a very helpful, very helpful as going through a divorce was when I um started reading her books and listening to her for the first time. It was very helpful, it was eye-opening, and then and then later on to be able to to tie her work in with Jesus and what Jesus does to help bring understanding was it's kind of amazing to get to Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Brene Brown has anything, she didn't come up with it like Jesus gave it to her, like, and I think she's been able to help a lot of people. Yeah, so that's awesome. So as a kid, you were touched wrong, shame comes in, you didn't really know how to explain it, it was just ended up being a part of your life.

SPEAKER_01

Yep. And so, yeah, I it eventually it it did manifest itself in in addiction. Um, maybe before we get to that, so high school years, or most of high school, um, I've got an older brother, he's super smart, great leader, like he's good at whatever he does. And so he goes, he goes off to academy before me, right?

SPEAKER_04

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01

And so, you know, brings the written bock name in there and makes the name for himself. And I come in and I'm like, okay, well, I gotta outdo my brother. And so I get involved in everything that I can. Um like class officer, um student body. Like by I think my junior year, I was student body president. Um were you the big man on campus? I don't know if I was the big man, but I was probably in that group of the big men on campus. We had we had a pretty our class was pretty our class stood out, and so like we had a lot of people in our class who were doing a lot of big things and and and a few above us and below us and and whatnot, but yeah, so our class kind of ruled the school probably from sophomore year on. Sorry, class of 97, 96, but and so what are you? Jody, Jody and Ben are are 97 and I'm 98, so that's why I gotta 98.

SPEAKER_00

That was a big year. So um you're doing that, you got some confidence from doing that. Did you did you end up reaching the highs that your brother had reached? Did you feel like you had arrived?

SPEAKER_01

Um, probably. Probably. And also we had we had a really we had a good we had good faculty, we had um, you know, faculty who cared about us. It was it our school was really good those years. And we had um I mentioned earlier, Gary Burns, he was our pastor, and so he was he was always pushing us to be involved, and um not just in our school, but like we did prayer conferences, our school hosted a prayer conference.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, I took a prayer conference at DAA.

SPEAKER_01

What year was that?

SPEAKER_00

Uh it might have been either my junior year, it might have been 01 or 2000.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yeah, I was gone then.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, but it was awesome, man. DAA had a reputation, I think, of having the greatest people, like the real, like down-to-earth, like there's something about those winners that make you guys like really just great people or something. It's like you don't you're uh, but then then they end up hating people like me because like people from where I'm from, Kansas City, like we came to Union and we were very arrogant. And I think people from North Dakota are so down to earth that they look at they don't they don't like people like me, and so but I was like, that's sad because they're so great, but there were so many like you look at union so many through the years of great, amazing people came from North Dakota, South Dakota.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, good people here, yeah. Um so anyway, was he he had me the the pastor had me get involved in in um in prayer conferences, so either helping lead him out or we went we went to England one year and and helped lead out a prayer conference there. Wow. Um was doing I think I was on 3 ABN talking about prayer down in Orlando for uh I don't even know what that one is was. I wow remember, but was God was God happy with you? Oh I oh yeah, I was doing all the things, so let's go he was probably happy with me. Um and so I bring I bring this up to because this is where the pivot point comes. Um I was asked to to go to India over um spring break over Thanksgiving. And you know, I'm like, okay, I'll let me pray about it. And I don't know much prayer there was, but there was a lot of thinking, and and basically I chose not to go because I wanted to spend time, I didn't want to give up the time with my family and the friends that were gonna be around, and I don't know, make maybe a girlfriend at the time. Um and after I made that decision, I felt guilty about it. And I basically convinced myself that I don't know, I don't know where where I got this idea, but that I had not listened to the Holy Spirit, and so I had committed the unpardonable sin.

SPEAKER_00

You were like Jonah or something? You're like I was supposed to go.

SPEAKER_01

I I didn't I was supposed to go and I didn't listen. I chose not to go, and and so that's it.

SPEAKER_00

I'm sure it works like that, but I know that's not the unpardonable sin, but I wonder if this is a prevalent thought in just how we grew up, or I mean that's tough.

SPEAKER_01

Well, do you remember like how that would get talked about when you were younger?

SPEAKER_00

I think there's this idea that God has a plan for your life, and everybody, of course, uses Jeremiah 29, 11. And then also with God's plan for your life is like this person, and so there would be a lot of talk about purity, and it's almost like when you're in high school, the whole thing is like you don't mess this up, yeah. And so then when you mess it up, quote unquote, meaning you don't do what they wanted you to do, then it does feel like a little heavy because there's one path for your life, which I don't think that's how it goes. Like I don't think that's what it is, but that's how you felt. And so you didn't want to mess up this one path. And I know people that believe like oh I messed it up.

SPEAKER_01

Well now that would have been me but like today I don't I don't even know if you have the ability you don't I do know

Transactional Faith And A Fearful God

SPEAKER_01

you don't have the ability to mess your life up more than God's ability to redeem it right you don't you can't you do not rich you do not have that ability if you could not have that ability if you would I we might have already done it so which is I mean just that alone that's that's a comforting thought it's like man I can't I can I can't mess it up beyond his ability to redeem it to fix it to restore it um doesn't mean I'm out there aiming to do those things I mean make good choices but it doesn't mean that but it didn't feel like that back then it felt like there was a lot of pressure on oh yeah yeah and and probably in that grew grew a fear to make big decisions and and I would say I could probably I can feel that at different points in my life that fear to make a big decision because I'm gonna mess this up it's the wrong decision.

SPEAKER_00

It's I feel like sometimes the way that we would talk to high schoolers and we were talked to is like your life you're the answer you're gonna do big things you're gonna do and you were just out of graduation I'm sure you heard like oh there's gonna be big things but what if those big things are like having a nine to five job honoring your family and and taking care of your family and those in your loving people around you yeah and it's that it's like you're gonna be the president of the church or you're gonna be like the big and sure there are people that do those things but I felt like oh big things in my life I don't like love your family like live peaceably with people what if we talk to kids like like instead of like you're gonna change the world that you're gonna change the life of your spouse by loving them deeply and you're gonna change your ch children by just loving them. But if yeah like it's like oh I'm gonna do this big thing who's to say and what why is that bigger than loving a child loving your spouse like honoring your community being with people pouring life into people that are in your area of influence and not the whole world I don't know maybe that's an avidist thing because we're supposed to I don't know well it could be I mean we're always supposed to be out there evangelizing so I mean you gotta you gotta be if you're gonna do it you gotta go big and all the things but gotta go to India over Thanksgiving. They gotta go over to yes yeah which is had I you know in hindsight had I had I talked to anybody about it I probably wouldn't have stayed on that conclusion but I I have a real hard time with mission trips man and I and I know that they can be beneficial but I've had enough guests on the Death of Life podcast who told me of all the stupid stuff that happens on mission trips that I'm like I'm good man like my daughter's 13 she's I know she's gonna want to go on a mission trip and I know I'm gonna be like bruh like there's not enough supervision y'all are gonna do something stupid and then you're in a foreign country like I just get I just get a little weird about that she'll be okay yeah maybe she's got you as a dad she'll be she'll be just fine we'll see what happens but um keep going so you felt that pressure you had messed up your Jonah God's mad at you because you didn't go to India probably worse than Jonah Jonah Jonah ended up getting thrown up out of the belly whale and going do what he was supposed to do I so anyway I um from from that point on there was there was a shift and slowly slowly at first um you know it was like somebody was having a cigarette oh I'll try that and and then it probably wasn't long after that it was oh I wonder if we could go if we know anybody where we could go find some weed and and so I say slowly at first because kind of when when I get into something I sometimes go hard and and so hey let's carry that into addiction and things we shouldn't be doing let's we might as well just go all out go all out and so probably for I don't know what it was a year year and a half I suppose um probably a year there was like that became my lifestyle right after high school or in high school in in high school and then and then and then after uh for for for about a year year and a half I don't know and um and so that that ended sort of I got in trouble got in legal trouble and how'd your folks handle that well fairly well fairly well so they they had found they had found um I think my dad had to move my car or something and he found my my pipe in there and it's just like a marijuana pipe or like heavier drugs?

SPEAKER_01

No like a marijuana pipe and call a marijuana pipe um and so I was I was living at home at the time and they're like you know what's this and we talk about it and and I probably also found a pack of cigarettes in there and they were like if you want to continue to live at home this has got to stop and I was like okay I'll quit today and and you gotta stop smoking cigarettes too I was like I'm 18 I don't have to do that and so I moved out. So you were gonna not do the illegal thing but if it's legal I was I that's my I'm I'm 18 I'm old enough to make that decision and so I don't a little stubborn maybe sure good for you you moved out so moved out um winton lived with a very bad influence and and that's kind of where the legal trouble stemmed from and I I remember so got God at this point probably wasn't wasn't really in the picture for me. It was just God you're gonna have to be over here while these things are happening and and so after a few months of being in this lifestyle and and like there were other illegal things going on that felt very foreign to an Adventist kid growing up in a small community um a little bit of a gangster life right I'm I was like I was in a little Christian school my whole life and um and I remember there was a party going on one night and so there was a bunch of people and and it was loud and and I remember crawling was I I lived in a trailer house with this guy so the room's tiny the closet the closet is tiny and I remember crawling in my closet and just praying and I was like I don't care what it takes get me out of this and I was like I'm I'm just I'm done with this and within a week I got arrested it's probably under a week actually it's probably a couple days I got arrested just for possession um was possession and distribution not your slang and hash in the streets yep that's what I was doing which is kind of weird because I never really like thought of myself that way like I didn't didn't really think that's what I was doing.

SPEAKER_00

Being a drug dealer?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah didn't like I just sold some drugs to the friend of mine well yeah so somebody showed up and they wanted something and then was like I can get this for you and was just like okay but I mean yeah I was a drug dealer never really thought of myself that way but that what I was doing um and so after that um you know it's a lot of soul searching and you're just like man totally messed up my life and what are you gonna do now and and so come coming out of that I you know I quit I quit smoking um I lived with my brother for a while and and so I was like okay I want to rediscover or discover God and like and I didn't know how to go about it and so I just like I just started at the basics and I was just like okay we're gonna go back to like cradle roll stuff and and just the basic stories and even thinking about the the songs we'd sing in cradle roll and and so I started spending a lot more time in the Bible and reading and um there was maybe maybe there was a hint of starting to develop a relationship with God instead of just reading about him it was like maybe it was there and it was starting and so I was like okay I got out of this mess God got me out of this mess and so I I owe him my life for this and so I'm gonna do service okay and so the service is either going to be um religion preaching or it's going

Shame Begins And Coping Starts

SPEAKER_01

to be to the country and so I spent some time like thinking and praying about it and I was like well I don't I don't think I have what it takes to to join the army and not walk away like a super hardened individual like I feel like that would I just I don't know if I have that ability and so I decided I'd go to union um and I would do theology. Theology major yep yep and and so that's that's what I did and I spent maybe I don't even know maybe a semester as a theology major but ultimately what happened was I my behavior was not lining up with what I would expect from somebody who at some point would get up front and preach. Yeah have you heard Jonathan Leonardo's story I have I have and you know what I feel like I don't know 40% of people that end up very similar like yeah yeah and so I just I couldn't do it and so I was I was like I'm gonna change majors um I don't know how many times they changed majors though I was down at union could have been like five and ended up with um psychology degree four years you were there four or five doesn't matter it was probably five for college but I I don't it was three or four down there because I did go to Jamestown college here for a little bit you have a psychology degree yep very cool so when you left there what was the plan with your psychology degree um I think I was at the time I was thinking counseling maybe like addiction counselor um what else I had this grand idea of developing a master um psychological framework that was in cohesion with the Bible but that sounds amazing I don't I don't know if I have that ability but I thought it would have been cool so yeah that sounds really um yeah what else from that time I don't know I mean there was there was still there was still shame right so there's so the addiction is still there and um how that played out kind of varied in season and so maybe sometimes as the years went on it was a little or a lot or not at all um but it was basically always present um and or maybe it wasn't weed and it was alcohol or whatever was around um but you were medicating life with substance yep yep yeah and so that that that was always present during those years I guess you still believed in God though how did how did that go um I would say I probably landed somewhere it's like let's just try to be a good person and see what happens yeah right so I I can I'm gonna be doing these things but I'm still gonna try to be nice and be a good person if that makes sense. Sure does yeah so what happened next um so graduate move back to North Dakota um this is like 2001 2002 two or three I suppose somewhere around there two yeah we just missed each other I was showing up to Union right as you were about to leave or adjust your left and you you had an older brother down there might he was yeah I think he was down there when I was down there.

SPEAKER_00

I'm sure he would know who you are and your whole family because he remembers everybody and he knows everything yeah I just I just remember the name so um yeah so yeah I moved moved back to North Dakota um I couldn't get into a grad program right away and so I farmed with my brother helped him on the farm um while I was trying to get into grad school and I ended up taking some classes up in Grand Forks and I just drive back and forth a couple times a week um that was in addiction counseling I tried getting in to a marriage and family counseling program in Fargo didn't get in and then ended up within that same program I think the next year I ended up getting into um child development and family science was the master's program and so spent a couple years doing that um and the plan was to open a daycare that was the goal wow um I met my wife there while we were going to school um and so in 2010 we got married um how old were you I think I had I think I was 30 yeah somewhere around there close to 30 she was a few years younger than me um yeah so and you had your your marriage and family was your main background or it uh young childhood or like what was child development and family science and so I never I never ended up I never ended up finishing my master's I had started the thesis and then um had had an opportunity to start farming and decided to take that and so I think that that kind of all happened right before before it was before we got married. Are you a pretty good farmer is that a weird question I ask what does it take to be a good farmer just diligence that helps and some understanding yeah I don't and that's a good question. Work ethic I would think would be the number one thing. That's a big one work ethic's a big one I mean because don't tell my brother I said this but really I mean you're just putting seeds in the ground it's not rocket science no I mean there's more to it than that but um yeah I I think we're decent farmers yeah I don't but it's hard work I would you would say it's a lot of work it's just a lot of work there's a lot like put in a lot of hours and so and like and that that is stressful on a family that's stressful on a young family it's stressful on a new marriage um my wife would tell me she worked at the Nebraska Heart Hospital she would tell me these farmers would come in and it's like after the harvest right after the harvest is finished and he's like yeah I had a heart attack three days ago and she's like why didn't you come in and he's like what do you mean why did I come what like we had to we had to finish this thing and like they're jacked like they're messed up and she has to help them and the doctors and like does that resonate like that life of a farmer like that's it doesn't surprise me it doesn't surprise me I I think we're we're um we're aware that there is a a price like on the body that that we are paying and for the work that we do and so um we're mindful of it and we try to we try to mitigate that as much as possible.

SPEAKER_01

So you know like I told you earlier today we're we're trying to get off work early you know it's Friday it's summer you'd think oh you'd be out there working no or we our main stuff is done we want to be yeah we want to we want to recoup some of the rest that we lost the last month month and a half right how many like how many hours a week are you out working would you say like in the busy season?

SPEAKER_00

Sure.

Mission Trip Guilt And Drug Spiral

SPEAKER_01

Um I have 80 and my brother probably puts in more hours than I do because he doesn't sleep as well as I do.

SPEAKER_00

So you get up at like five at four or five in the morning nah I'd rather work late than get up early. Okay so that's Just give me so you day when does it start and end?

SPEAKER_01

Um like 5 30 probably. I'm getting uh I gotta get up at five. No. And I don't hey, I do not like it, okay? I do not like getting up that early. Like six is pushing it, but when that when that number on the clock says five, that's just not normal. Um and then this year's been I've actually been very good. Like normally I'd probably stay up till midnight and do that, but I've been this this season this last planting season, I've been like 10 30, 11 o'clock, just get home, shower, and go straight to bed.

SPEAKER_00

Good for you. So you you got into this farming thing, got married. That's hard on a family. That's what sure.

SPEAKER_01

It's hard on a family. It is. It is. Um so yeah, I mean, we we had we have four kids.

SPEAKER_00

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

Um, twins right off the bat.

SPEAKER_00

That was that's how you started, yeah. Get it get it get him out of the way. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01

Yep.

SPEAKER_00

And it sounds so difficult.

SPEAKER_01

Of the of the things that I do remember well, like I remembered that moment well when she called. I was I was cleaning grain bins, and she had she had the first ultrasound, and two heartbeats. She yep, she tells me, and I like I had to sit down, and like immediately I'm like, two car seats, two cribs, like all the twos just rolled through my head. And with it, two boys, two girls? Two girls. So I all all four of the all four of the kids are girls.

SPEAKER_00

I'm a twin, I have a twin sister, but my they had an older boy and then us, and she wanted to stop at four, so she was like, Oh, cool. But it's different if man, all four girls. Good for you. God looked at your family and he's like, There's too much masculinity here. I need to even I need to even it out.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Love the girls. Wouldn't wouldn't have it any other way. You know, you you hear like, oh, you're trying for a boy, you're hoping for a boy. And like I remember thinking, I'm just hoping they're healthy. Like, that's that's what I want.

SPEAKER_00

After having Nola, after having our girl, when we found out we were having a boy, I was not as pumped as I thought I would be because I didn't know what that was gonna be like. I was like, I know what this sweet little girl is like. What's it gonna be with this guy? And uh it's been great. He's awesome, but it it was it threw me for a loop. So um, four kids farming, trying to figure out that life.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and in the in the in the midst of that, I am still um I'm still in addiction. I'm still and for for a period instead of drinking or smoking, like those things had had gone gone to the past. Um for for a while there it was pills. Painkillers or something? Yep, painkillers. And and with with with the family, it was you know, like as a as a young kid, it'd be about getting messed up. Like that was the goal. Um then as I as I got older, that was that wasn't the goal. The goal wasn't to get messed up, the goal was to function. Function, the goal was to medicate, the goal was to never have to sit in silence and and actually have to deal with the noise, with the shame. And and I wouldn't have at the time I would have never been able to name that. Um, you know, so looking looking back on it, that's that's what I see it as. And so, like for for a period, it would be just like a portion of a pill every night, get the kids to bed, and it would be a portion of a pill, and it like, you know, the house is now quiet, and I'm not ready for bed, but I don't wanna I don't wanna have to sit with myself in it. And um and so it and even even during the day, um what I would do is like I listen to a lot of audiobooks and like fiction, right? Nothing nothing that's helping me, it's just just trying to drown out me so I don't have to sit quietly with me. And I mean, I probably lived that way for five, six years, and eventually it was like I I can't even like I had numbed myself so much, and like even to be able to like really stop and think about things was difficult, and so it's like okay, no no more audiobooks, we're gonna we're gonna do something different, we gotta get this brain working again, and so then it became you know podcasts, and it might have been Joe Rogan or um who else did I listen to a bunch? Peterson.

SPEAKER_00

Um you started to develop your 12 rules of life.

SPEAKER_01

You're gonna I still don't have my room clean, but what were the books, the fictional books?

SPEAKER_00

What was it just like mysteries and thrillers? Um fantasy.

SPEAKER_01

Um you know, kind of like maybe the well, so probably space stuff. Um there was there was a while where it was all apocalyptic stuff. Um, you know, just like it it it calls to the Adventist in you, right? Like, how do you prep? Gotta be ready for that end-time event. Um, so which like honestly, I still find like those things interesting because they're like talking about some very basic skills that are lost to us, really. Um yeah, so like I so you live like this for a while, and you then you change the mode to you're wanting to learn to help yourself a little bit more, little bit more, but I mean it was still with the same goal. You're still just like trying to drown drowned out. Um to numb, I was still trying to numb myself in some way.

SPEAKER_04

Sure.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, oh yeah. Um probably teaching Sabbath school. Um deacon. So yeah, going to church. Wanted wanted to raise the kids in the church. Um she had so my wife didn't didn't grow up Adventist, but she had become Adventist before we got married, and um did that on the on her own without you know me pushing or or whatever. Um so yeah, we were we were going to church, we were doing those things. We were involved in the church, involved in the school.

SPEAKER_00

Um what happened?

SPEAKER_01

Um well I suppose some somewhere in that time period I quit I quit using pills. Um like ah man, it just was too much and knew it was time to be done.

SPEAKER_00

And those those will wreck your your digestive system up too. Well every everything.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's they're not good for you.

SPEAKER_00

No, no, and I read Empire of Pain, I don't know if you've heard that book. Uh it's the story of the Sackler family who invented oxycontin and how they knew about how damaging it was. And um yeah, man, I mean the hundreds of thousands of people have died because these things are crazy powerful, and they get you addicted.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so that that was me on those for a while, and was it hard to quit? Oh yes, it was awful. It was it was awful, and I didn't I didn't want to tell my wife. Like I was I was on the verge of checking myself in somewhere. Um and I'd heard about a supplement, and I was doing some research on like different nutritional things that would help with the the withdrawals, and you just knew that this wasn't good for you, you just had enough. Yep, it was time to be done, and and so yeah, quit. Yeah, and the withdrawals were awful.

SPEAKER_00

Like, I don't I don't even know what to compare that to, but it's just your body is not being able to function without it, it's just trying to get back to base level and it can't.

SPEAKER_01

Yep, wow, yeah. And I I don't I don't remember how long that was, I just remember it being hell.

SPEAKER_04

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

So I'm it was probably weeks or months or weeks for sure.

Arrest Then A Fresh Start Attempt

SPEAKER_01

Um yeah, and so then probably over the course of the next couple years, um let's see, I think I mentioned this, but I'm divorced. Think you could leading leading up to the divorce, um I probably found myself actually reading the Bible more and and praying more and doing it on a regular basis and and trying to to have that relationship. Um I'm not gonna say it it wasn't fruitful. Um, and I don't even know how to describe this other than the other than to say it's not what it is today, which hopefully we get to here.

SPEAKER_00

You gotta start somewhere, right? You had a heart for spiritual things, and um it wasn't going well in your life, and so kind of going back to your foundation, hopefully, and try to find something that you hadn't seen before.

SPEAKER_01

Is that kind of uh Yeah, and it's just I I mean there was there was a number of times like from the point where I said, Hey, I'm gonna be a theology major up until like maybe say a year before my divorce, where I'm like, okay, I need to I need to get back into this and I need to have this relationship and read the Bible and pray and and and do all these things because they would just be very sporadic, you know, in my life during that time period. And and it was always like I might start, but I couldn't stick with it, and I would tell myself, well man, if you just if I just believed more, like if I just believed more, like maybe I would stick with this. I just don't believe enough. And and so eventually it would peter out.

SPEAKER_00

Sure. The getting a divorce, um, how did it how was your mental health through to all of that?

SPEAKER_01

It was rough. Um so I the days leading up to we'll just say the beginning, the beginning of the separation, the beginning of the end. Um and I remember I remember praying so much. And and like thinking back on this, this is probably like the first time like I can say in my life, I heard God. And it was always like, and I would I'd be praying and I'd be asked, like, what do I do? What do I do? I don't like I don't know what to do here. And and it was always the same thing. Love her. Love your wife, just just love her, and sadly, I didn't know how to do that. I did not know how to love her apart from this same transactional model that I had for a relationship with God. And I would have never said or or probably even thought that um yeah, my marriage is a transaction and I'm okay with that. Like that would have never I would have never said that, I would have never thought that. But in some very real ways, that's what it was. Like I needed something from her to be okay. To be okay. Does it sound familiar?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, man. You've heard me say that um when I told my wife I love you, what I meant was, do you love me?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I think I'm maybe I got that from Dan. I probably did, but that's when he said that, I'm like, yeah, that's how I was living for sure.

SPEAKER_01

Well, and when when you when I heard you say that, I remember thinking when I heard you when you were speaking down in South Dakota three years ago, and I heard you say that, I remember thinking, I don't know that I've ever heard somebody be so vulnerable before. Like, and yes, like that's where I was living. And so so yeah, um what year what did you get divorced? Um we separated in 2022, like May-ish, and divorced in February of 23. And you came and spoke in South Dakota in May of 23.

SPEAKER_00

So that time, that whole time, I'm sure, is super painful, and you were kind of going, you're asking God to do this thing, but you didn't know how to love your wife. You gotta be loved, right? To be able to love. Yep. Um, and so when that whole thing, you know, February. What was the mindset moving forward?

SPEAKER_01

Well, okay, so you you had asked, and I don't I don't think I ever really answered. Um, oh, hang on one second. Oops. Um like like my mental health in or during during the div like during that time period, um depression and anxiety.

SPEAKER_04

100%.

SPEAKER_01

Um and I don't I'm not gonna say I've never had neither in my life, but I don't I don't know that I ever had any real experience with both of those things. Like, at least not to that extent. Um and and like in the middle of between the separation and the divorce, um, I became very angry. And I'm not the type of person that likes to be angry for long. Like I don't I don't like the way it feels, I don't like to be in it, I don't I don't like any of it. And and so I think there was probably like a two two-month time period where where I was angry. I was just absolutely angry. And and like I knew, I knew the answer. I knew like I need to forgive.

SPEAKER_02

Um just didn't know how to do it.

SPEAKER_01

And that was we were in the middle of harvest, like during that time period, so there's lots of hours being put in at work, and and so like to find time to just separate yourself from the world and have a quiet moment wasn't happening. Um so harvest gets done, and and I I now have time for that quiet moment, and so it's like okay, I am going to even if I don't believe it, I'm gonna start saying it and and praying on it, and just like okay, I I forgive. I forgive her. And you know, there was maybe there was maybe a little bit of relief in that, um, and just just kept on doing it. And around that same time, I I'd read, I don't remember the name of the book, um, was by John Delaney. Um, you know who that is.

SPEAKER_00

Name sounds familiar.

SPEAKER_01

Uh I can't even think of the guy he's on whose network he's on. Um, anyway, his book is about like rethinking the stories that you tell yourself about your own past. And then shortly after that, a friend had recommended another book um on depression, and like a big chunk of the book is about calling out lies that you believe about yourself. And and so I I bring this up because I'm being primed for what I'm about to hear.

SPEAKER_04

Wow.

SPEAKER_02

And so

Farming Life Marriage And Hidden Pills

SPEAKER_02

the div the divorce happens, um and I think it was shortly shortly it was it was around that time.

SPEAKER_01

Um Or I should say the divorce is finalized. And it was around that time. And I just I remember praying. I was like, I there's gotta be more than this. There's there's gotta be more. I do not want to be left in this place. I do not want to come out of this this horrible thing I wouldn't wish on anybody and and not not learn something from it. Um and I remember even right away in that separation, I remember praying to God, do not let my heart be hardened. It's like I've got four little girls, I cannot walk away from this thing with a hard heart. I cannot do that to them.

SPEAKER_02

And so there's there is like this moment that I'm basically asking God, it's like if there if there is more then then it's time, it needs to happen.

SPEAKER_01

I need you to show up. And so we're a couple months past the divorce, and I remember spring that year was just like if if something could break, it was breaking, and it was just it was like wearing me down, like there was constant breakdowns, we were constantly fixing stuff, and um, we were really wet, and so we're kind of behind, and like the weight was feeling the weight of all that, and um we get a day, it's the first day I can just go sit in a tractor, and I don't have to be fixing something or managing something, and I just get some quiet time in a tractor, and I'd remembered well, so we got auto steer, so I don't have to have my hand on the wheel, I can just push the button, especially if we're digging. There's not there's not a ton you gotta pay attention to if you're doing field work. Um, and so cruising across the field, and I'm flipping through my phone, and I see um Facebook Live event. And I remembered a friend, Mindy, she was she was up here the week before, and she was talking about this guy who was talking about new ways of thinking about things, and um, he's coming to South Dakota and not doing it at the church. Don't think they're on great terms with the Mid-America Union or something like that, and which immediately for me piqued my interest.

SPEAKER_00

That's what people don't understand. Okay, you just let us go, it won't be a big deal if you're just like not gonna let it happen. People are gonna be more interested.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so so I'm scrolling and I see it, and so I'm like, okay, let's listen. And I mean, I I kid you not, Rich. Probably within the first minute, I'm just bawling.

SPEAKER_02

I'm just bawling in the tractor.

SPEAKER_01

And I had actually I went back and re-listened to it. It was like maybe a year ago because um Ricky was asking me something about it, and I was like, I don't know, I'll have to like off to go relisten to it and see exactly what stood out to me.

SPEAKER_00

And so now I need to listen to it. What did I say in the first minute? Did I just start talking about my marriage?

SPEAKER_01

Yes, yep, you were you were right into your marriage, basically right off the bat. Okay, and and so as as you're as you're talking, um I feel like hope being made alive in me for the first time, and and I don't I don't even know how long. And it's like you're you're talking about all these things, and you're talking about that we we are righteous in him, that he is our righteousness, right? And so we can have this right standing, and it's not it's not about what I can do or I can perform to get that right standing, that it is in him. And and so as you're talking, like in my mind, I can see like all this garbage in my life just like being played out, and I know that Jesus is enough, that he's enough to handle it all, he's enough to deal with it all. And and like there's this this moment where I'm like, yeah, but can we talk about this thing? Can this thing be brought to the light? Can that thing be brought to the light? And it's it's all just crashing into the rock that's Jesus. It's Jesus is enough, he can handle this. And so something was awakened in me in that moment, and I remember going like going home, and I don't know, timeline gets a little bit fuzzy, but probably for the first time in f like probably ever, I'm reading the Bible because I want to. I want to see what it says. Like, how can these things that you're saying actually be true? And it for me, freedom from sin wasn't wasn't like I mean, that idea is provocative. Like when you first hear it, that's a provocative idea. And so that probably kept me looking, but that wasn't the thing that I latched on to. It was that I can have right standing here now in him, because of him, through him. And so, yeah, so for like that next week, like I'd get home and I'd probably I'd be reading anything from Paul to like 2 a.m. in the morning.

SPEAKER_04

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

And I would I just I just flip through and I'd skim and like oh, here it says the light of the gospel. I think I'm gonna read that section or um ministries of a new covenant. Oh, that sounds good, and and I just I couldn't get enough.

SPEAKER_00

I just looked at the message you sent me. And you said, I want to thank you for sharing the gospel. What you shared in Rapid the other week hit me hard. I saw that there was a Bible study through LRT, so I sent a text, not realizing it was a live deal, and I'm in the field planning all day. Anyway, you said all this stuff, and I was like, Man, what did you like about it? And you're like, I'm Bush right now, bro. But and then you wrote like this whole long thing. You're like, I'm tired. But here's another three paragraphs on what like the gospel is it'll do that to you. Yeah, man. And so then this thing, the main thing was like not only that you had an opportunity to have right standing with God, but that in Christ you had it.

SPEAKER_01

I didn't have to do it.

SPEAKER_02

Like, I didn't have to do it. There's my role in it is to believe that he already did it.

SPEAKER_01

Like, and that the that's my role in it to actually experience it. Right? Yeah, to believe it not I mean he did he did it regardless of whether I believe it or not. That doesn't change that doesn't change that he did it, it doesn't change that it's done. And and just latching onto that idea, um I think I was tired of trying to do things that that that had no fruit to them. And so so to see that he had already done it, that it's already finished in him, and that that I can be good and rest in that and be okay, and I can be secure in that, it was relieving.

SPEAKER_00

What so you watched my first three presentations, which are probably nights one, two, and three of Love Reality Tour or Wave One or whatever. Did I say anything that was too controversial or after in subsequent listening to like Jonathan's, was there anything that was super controversial to you?

SPEAKER_01

Well, I had I had to sit, I had to sit with the idea of from freedom from sin. And so like I very quickly realized that I

Quitting Opioids And Facing Divorce

SPEAKER_01

don't know what most of these words mean. I don't know what righteousness means, I don't know what justification means, I don't know what sanctification means. I'm not even sure I know what sin means. And so, like, probably that first night I ordered a strong's concordance, like, and that baby couldn't get here quick enough. I don't have one. Did it help? Oh, yeah. I I mean, I found I'm looking up all the words and probably use the blue letter Bible now mostly, but even that differs sometimes from the concordance, anyway. Um, so yeah, you like actually when when the pastor gets up front and uses this word, now I can now I actually know what it means, and that it's not just some idea of what it might mean that I came up with as probably a kid.

SPEAKER_00

Justification, like the way Jonathan, like his definition that he uses, like it's the ontological change of like that. I wrote it down. That one, I don't have that one memorized. That one was tough for me, and then sanctification, that one became so easy because like sanctification was something that was so difficult, and now that I see, like, oh, actually, sanctification is to be set apart for a holy purpose, it's it's not common, it's not profane, it is holy. Then that whole thing started making complete sense to me. I think the simpler it is, the more powerful it is. And before it was just like justification, sanctification, and glorification, like they were just too difficult to wrap your mind around.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, well, and and even still wrestling with some of those words, even now. I mean, I don't know, do you ever hop on the milk dudes?

SPEAKER_00

I love the milk dudes. Uh, I haven't been on there for a while, but I mean, our world is going super deep, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, glorified's been the word lately, and so it's there's some back and forth about well, what does this word actually mean? I mean, but yeah, okay, so anyway, um yeah, keep going. You know, in in the moment, it felt like everything that was happening was taking so long. Like what what I wanted, like, okay, so you're like freedom from sin, and like, okay, so my life should be different, like right now, immediately. And in the moment, it felt like everything was taking so long, but when I looked back, like things were moving very quickly. And and so, um, I don't know. If you go back to those messages when I was asking about Bible studies, and you were like, and I think I maybe asked like, do you guys have like a lesson plan I can go through? And you're like, no, but this is what we're talking about tonight. And it was like Matthew 18 on forgiveness. Have I have I ever told you this story?

SPEAKER_00

No, tell me.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, so I'm driving home and I'm not texting back and forth with you in this message, and I'm You weren't texting and driving, is that what you're saying? No, right, and I'm thinking, um forgiveness, I'm good on that. But Rich said this is what they're doing in Bible study, so I'll read through this. I'll read through this this parable on forgiveness. And I remember getting home and laying on my floor in my bedroom and opening up the Bible, and I'm reading that story about the forgiving master. And I went into it thinking it's about forgiveness for others, that that's the point of the story. Like we gotta be right, we gotta forgive others, uh, or we're not gonna be forgiven. And what the Holy Spirit quickly revealed to me was that I am completely and radically forgiven. And I had I don't I don't know that I had any concept of how much I didn't realize that until that moment.

SPEAKER_04

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

So once again, there I am bawling on my floor, just bawling. And I would I would say that's probably like I felt the physical weight of that lift off me in that moment. And I think that that's probably where shame was undone in my life was in that moment.

SPEAKER_04

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

And so as I'm as I'm going through that parable, I see that I'm forgiven. And if that's true about me, or since that's true about me, that's true about you too. That's true about the people who sinned against me. That they're forgiven too. And so I don't need to hold on to any unforgiveness for them. Like I it doesn't e it doesn't even belong to me. It's not it's not mine to hold. Right? I mean if if it's his blood, if it's if it's Jesus on the cross, and it's his life, his indestructible life, and that's where we find forgiveness, then the things that require forgiveness, I I have no ownership to it.

SPEAKER_02

It's his.

SPEAKER_01

I had been reading Ephesians 1 like a lot. Like I'd be, I was praying it over myself in the morning and at night. Which was the the very first time I did that was very difficult. I was like, I don't believe any of this. This can't be true. And by the end of that week, like I'd wake up in the morning and it would just be playing in my head. And like there's nothing so great to wake up to as like Ephesian one, Ephesians 1 running through your mind. Like it is good stuff. And so anyway,

Hearing The Gospel And Hope Returns

SPEAKER_01

I had to text him back, and I was just like, look, I've been reading this lately, and I think I'm beginning to believe it about myself. And if it's true about me, then it's true about this person that I was just moving in some bitterness towards. And so I don't I don't want to I don't want to move that way anymore. I don't want to move in bitterness anymore. And and so and in some of those interactions, and that was that text back and forth, that was with Jody. Um and so and in some of those interactions, Ben begins to see something happening in me. And like there's a great deal of honor in watching the Lord work in your life and transform you, and then to see that have an effect on somebody else.

unknown

Right?

SPEAKER_01

Like this is humbling. Yes, very. It's like this glory to glory, it's it's it's when God reveals himself to you and it changes you and it transforms you, and then all of a sudden you're that light that Jesus has been talking about, and and now you're glorifying him, and it's just like this this loop of glory, the revealing of God, him to you, him through you, him in you, and yeah, humbling's a good word for it.

SPEAKER_02

It's humbling.

SPEAKER_00

And so since then you've been just kicking it with us all the time. I feel like I feel like it's not like you get this thing. I feel like it's like you are this thing now. Like you're the righteousness of God in Christ. You're not trying to figure out your right standing, like you're moving and operating from it.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

Like, and that is like, and do it, do I do it perfect? No, I mean no.

SPEAKER_00

Like there's we're that what does that matter? We're just growing in him, right?

SPEAKER_01

Yes, yes, yes. I I think I maybe I'm saying this for somebody who's listening and who's asking themselves that same question.

SPEAKER_02

Um do I have days where I forget? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

They're fewer and they're more far between today than they were three years ago.

SPEAKER_02

And I know. I know.

SPEAKER_01

Like, I know he has me and he holds me. I know that I'm safe and secure in him. I know that I'm loved.

SPEAKER_02

I know that he desires me. And when I forget, I just it's you come come running back to that.

SPEAKER_01

Running.

SPEAKER_00

You know the gospel. I know the gospel. And yet we still need to hear it every day. Yeah. And it's good. And we need to encourage each other. That's the whole purpose of all of this. Um has it changed the way you operate as a dad?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Um, I think probably the early years as a dad, I moved in restraint, and people would call it patience. And today I get to move in patience.

SPEAKER_02

Um I was probably I was probably a lot more strict ten years ago.

SPEAKER_01

Like I feel for the twins a little bit growing up.

SPEAKER_00

There was You're telling me, bro. I I I was uh I was tough. And people would see me with my kids, and they'd be like, yo, what is that dude's problem? Because I was so intense.

SPEAKER_01

Kelly, the twins, they may have gotten taken out of church once or twice and got spanked for when they were really little for being too being a kid. Yeah. Probably not gonna catch me doing that today.

SPEAKER_00

So let's say somebody is hearing this, they went to DAA with you. They were a union with you, they didn't know about your life, but they are just going through the motions, and God is a part of their life, but isn't their life. And they're like, I want what you have. How would you minister? What would you say to minister to somebody in that situation?

SPEAKER_01

I'd probably tell them they already have it.

SPEAKER_00

Let's go.

SPEAKER_01

Um I don't know how helpful that is, but sometimes it is helpful.

SPEAKER_00

Sometimes it's just like you're annoying, dude. And then when you realize, oh, he was right, I already had it, I didn't believe it. I didn't know it. I was trying to get something that had already been given to me.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I and I ah man. I'd I'd probably also tell him to practice secret place. I think practice it tell you the day you die. Like what how God ministers to you in that place is amazing. Like you can't I don't you can't compare it with anything else.

SPEAKER_00

When you just said that this song came to mind uh and kind of remind like this is your whole story. Uh the songwriter said, What a fellowship, what a joy divine, leaning on the everlasting arms, what a blessedness, what a peace is mine, leaning on the everlasting arms, leaning, leaning, safe and secure from all alarms, leaning, leaning on the everlasting arms. And yeah, that's our lives, man. Like, what a joy divine. Like, what peace that we have. And if we ever come down that mountain from where we're at, we're peace, we can just be reminded, no, we don't have to leave. Like we end up leaving that peace when we go into bitterness, or we go into resentment, we go into anger, we go into the shutta coulda woodas. We but he's been here the whole time, and he just let's get alone with him.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so I look I want to say two other things because I didn't I don't think I talked on it. Um one was the the importance of identity. Um like for me that that was big. Like in in reading, in reading Ephesians 1 and praying that over my life. Um and I had to grapple with the idea of what what it even meant to be a son. Like, what did it what does it mean? What does it even mean that you know, because we you're a child of God, you're a child of God, your son, your daughter, you know, and I say the same thing to my kids and I pray it over them. Um but like grabbing grabbing hold and finding my identity in in Christ was like huge in learning how to walk this thing out. Um, shame there the world, you know, shame this is says this is who I am. I I am this thing, I did, you know, it's not just I did it, I am this thing. And there how do you find an answer to that to defeat that that idea that you are this thing, unless there like Jesus is the only answer for that, right? Because he says, No, you're not this thing, you're you're not a sinner, you're not right, you're not well, I whatever it is, an addict, um, a drugie, a liar, an adulterer, I whatever it is, whatever, whatever

Forgiveness Identity And Letting Jesus Work

SPEAKER_01

thing that you're putting on, there is no real answer in the world. Like, oh, we can go out and we can have positive affirmations that we say in front of the mirror. That um with me is I would never believe it. Like, I I can go do that and I could say it, but I wouldn't believe myself. Like I'd be like, dude, you're just you're you're lying to yourself. Right? But you get in the word and he says it to you, and he says who you are, and that you're not those things.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, so I I just I just wanted to say that, and then the other thing on like the ministering to somebody. Um, for me. Let him do it. Just let him do it. Like, I don't he got uh a drug problem. Give it to him, let him take care of it. It's his problem. Just let him do it. Um, I can't tell you the number of things, Rich. Like, okay, I'll give you one real quick. Um game on my phone. I got to the point where I was playing it a lot. And to the point where my my littlest was commenting on how much I was playing it. It's just like, okay, time to be done. And yet I kept finding myself playing that game. And I think that night I was just like, uh not that night. Like I tried to quit for a couple a couple days, was like not gonna play it anymore, and I kept finding myself doing it. So it was after a couple nights, and I just got it yours. Take care of the problem, yeah. And it was like next thing I knew, a month had gone by and I hadn't played it. Like, let him take care of it. Well, let him take care of it, and he will do it. Okay, I'm done. What were you gonna say?

SPEAKER_00

No, man. I think you're a testimony to all of us. I think seeing you come alive with all of this is the joy of our lives. Um I think you get it when you see other people that you've ministered grab onto it. You're just like, oh yeah, I'm gonna do this for the rest of my life. Like, this is the purpose of my life. I love my wife, I love my kids. My purpose is to preach the gospel and to walk in freedom, and that purpose will serve them as well as anything else. And so I know you see it because you ministered to people, and so me seeing you um is truly humbling. And so I just thank you, man. You're you're a city on a hill. We see your good works, and we and we praise God, man. Thank you for for sharing your your testimony.

SPEAKER_01

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely, man.