Death to Life podcast
A podcast that tells the stories of people that used to be one way, and now are completely different, and the thing that happened in between was Jesus.
Death to Life podcast
#271 Aly and Danny: Freedom That Survives A Breakup
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A breakup can feel like proof that you are unlovable, but what if it is actually the moment you discover who you are? Richard sits down with Danny and Aly for an honest, funny, and deeply human conversation about how a relationship that started with crushes and church culture expectations turned into codependency, collapsed under pressure, and then got rebuilt on something sturdier than validation.
We walk through Danny’s spiral after the breakup, the loneliness and neediness he admits he put on Aly, and the surprising moment a gospel-centered truth landed: he could be okay even when his circumstances were not. From there, Allie shares her own turning point, facing the conditional-love mindset many Christians absorb over time, plus the purity culture shame that teaches people their worth is tied to performance, behavior, or sexual “cleanliness.” The thread running through both stories is simple but disruptive: identity is secure because Jesus says so, not because you can keep every rule or keep someone happy.
Then the conversation goes where most Christian podcasts avoid: early marriage disappointment, painful sex, fear of intimacy, and the shame loop that convinces couples they are broken and alone. Danny and Aly talk about the slow path toward healing through better communication, couples therapy, pelvic floor physical therapy, and supportive mentors, all while learning to remove fear and speak honestly without blaming.
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Why Transformation Still Happens
SPEAKER_03The world doesn't think that the gospel can change your life, but we know that it can. And that's why we want you to hear these stories: stories of transformation, stories of freedom, people getting free from sin and healed from sin because of Jesus. This is Death to Life. Yo, welcome to the Death to Life Podcast. My name is Richard Young. And today's podcast is with one of my favorite couples. I don't know if it's top five, top ten. They're up there, and they've never been on the podcast, and they're the coolest people to go to a wedding with. But the voices of Danny and Allie are who you're going to hear. So buckle up and strap in, love y'all and appreciate y'all.
SPEAKER_01Did I hype up to say hi at all?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, did I hype up the podcast too much? That was hype. And then I'm going to be like monotone the whole thing. And uh you were in your car on your phone, and at one point, like your phone went black, and I was like, oh no. And then when I went to to do it, only like half of the podcast was there. So then we went back to the lab, and Danny was like, What if we brought Allie? And I was like, I wasn't gonna say it myself, but yeah, let's
Meeting Danny And Allie
SPEAKER_03bring Allie to the podcast. Allie, is your full name Allie or is it Allison or is it is it Allison?
SPEAKER_00It's Allison, yes.
SPEAKER_03But you never go by that.
SPEAKER_00You know, I moved around a lot growing up, and so I tested out if I wanted to do Allie or Alison, and after multiple tries, I'm I'm landing on Allie.
SPEAKER_03After more you gave it a shot. You gave it an honest shot.
SPEAKER_00I gave Allison a really good shot in Florida, and I didn't I didn't love it.
SPEAKER_03So it'd be like, is Alison here? And you wouldn't even recognize that they were talking to you, and so you're like, no, this isn't funny.
SPEAKER_00It's like when I got to Southern. Some friends would know me by Allison, and some would know me by Allie, and I just have to respond to both.
SPEAKER_03Okay, well, why don't you start us off? Where are you from? Um, what is your background um spiritually? Like what what was your quest? Who are you? Where did you grow up?
SPEAKER_00Yes, well, um my name is Allie, and I grew up in Pennsylvania.
SPEAKER_03Um what was your maiden name, real quick?
SPEAKER_00Allie. Um Allie Cole. My dad is Jay Cole.
SPEAKER_03Jay Cole, famous rapper.
SPEAKER_00Yep, my dad is Jay Cole.
SPEAKER_03Um I I don't remember because I was just thinking, like, I know I knew you before you got married, but I didn't remember your maiden name. Allie Cole. Uh grew up in in the uh the Keystone State.
SPEAKER_00In in Pennsylvania, yes, indeed.
SPEAKER_03What what part?
SPEAKER_00Um, but like between oh, wait a second. Do you know where BMA is?
SPEAKER_03Uh I've been there several times. I can't Harrisburg? No, what it where is it?
SPEAKER_00Hamburg, yes.
SPEAKER_03Hamburg. I've stayed at the the Mike Rotel in Hamburg before. Yeah, I've stayed there.
SPEAKER_00All right. Well, that's where I grew up. My dad was the um manager of the Adventist Book Center when I was growing up.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it was pretty good.
SPEAKER_03So you had all the fried chick, it was coming out of your ears. You had all the the Loma Linda brands.
SPEAKER_00Rich, when I tell you, there is nothing better than a dented can of fried chick. Because we get the dented cans at a discount price. So we get, you know, whatever veggie meat we wanted, we would just hope that it was dented, and then my dad would bring it home to us. It was the best.
SPEAKER_03Nothing better than a hairy meat, which fried chick is. It's a hairy meat. And if you guys for the listener who doesn't know what I'm talking about, you're missing out on that delicious tang of a hairy,
Allie’s Adventist Childhood And God
SPEAKER_03fake meat. Uh I'm not wrong, Allie. It's got hair on it.
unknownWhat?
SPEAKER_03Fry chick.
SPEAKER_00All right. We're not we're not gonna have this argument.
SPEAKER_03Okay, I like it. If somebody knows how to fry that mug up really good, it can be delicious. No, it's delicious. Yeah. So you grew up, your dad was frying up the fried chick.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but um keep going. Um, my yes, my we I grew in Pennsylvania until I was 12, and then we started moving around a little while, um, following my dad's job. Um, I have a younger sister, and her name is Sarah, and then my mom's name is Connie, and we moved around a lot between um high school and college, just for my dad's job. We went to Florida for two years. That's where I was Allison, didn't love it.
SPEAKER_03Um what part of Florida did you move to?
unknownApopka.
SPEAKER_03Right there at FLA, okay.
SPEAKER_00That's right. I went to Fleece, didn't go to FLA, moved right before going to high school. Um, but yes, went to went to Fleece.
SPEAKER_03Okay. And so you your your parents were they converts to Adventism, or were they have they were their parents in the church as well?
SPEAKER_00Um, both sides I am I am multiple generation Adventist.
unknownYes.
SPEAKER_03Like your cousins, like a couple times removed, were at like Ascension Rock with the the gear on, waiting like on 1844. Absolutely. Without adapt.
SPEAKER_00Very Adventist only.
SPEAKER_03So, you know, Adventism is like a big it's like a big thing. We act like it isn't, but it's like there's different beliefs. What what brand of Adventism would would you say that you grew up with?
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm. Um, I'd say that I grew up in like a conservative Christian background, not like um crazy uber conservative, but at the same time when I did meet Danny for the first time, he did tell me that I grew up under a rock because I wasn't allowed to watch SpongeBob, SpongeBob growing up. Um, and then so yes. Um, but yeah, I just I watched a lot of Veggie Tales, listened to a lot of Adventures and Odyssey, all of those things. Just I just I don't know. I had I had a pretty happy childhood. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_03You're a lot younger than me, but I know that if I grew up at the time that you grew up, I guarantee my mom and dad would not have let me watch Spongebob.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Why was he kind of because he's kind of mean, isn't he?
SPEAKER_00I I don't know.
SPEAKER_03I still haven't watched an episode.
SPEAKER_01I don't I think he was nice, but it was a lot going on in the show, you know.
SPEAKER_03I bet Danny, and we'll talk about him, he was probably allowed to watch The Simpsons growing up. I was never allowed to watch The Simpsons.
SPEAKER_01I don't know about The Simpsons, but like I don't know. My dad would be watching like the Terminator, and I'd walk in and then sit on the couch and he'd be cool with it. But then if my mom saw it happen and she'd be like, oh no.
SPEAKER_03That's like my family right now. Don't don't tell Natalie. Um so who who was God to you as you're growing up, Allie?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So um me and God had a pretty like good relationship. I I it was pretty clear to me that like Jesus loved me. And that was it. I was like, I just knew and was confident in the fact that Jesus loved me. Um and like, yeah, it really wasn't complicated. Um my I my mom tells me the story about when I was like growing up and I was sitting and just looking out the window, and my mom's like, what are you doing, Allie? And I was sitting there and I was like, I'm just waiting for Jesus to come back. And it was just I I just had this very simple like Jesus loves me. I'm excited for Jesus to one one day come back, loved the camp meetings, Sabbath school. Like it was, I don't know, it was very simple. Um, in that like Jesus loves me, that's it. Um, and so it was very simple going up until like high high school and college is where it got a little complicated.
SPEAKER_03That is so sweet though. You're the realest Adventist that there is when you said I'm waiting for Jesus to come back, there's this gif of Mr. Bean, and he's hanging on the side of the road and he's like looking at his watch and he's like waiting, and he's like looking, and like that's what you send when someone's late. You send like Mr. Bean like standing on the side of the road. I feel like that's what you were, and you know, the name Seventh-day Adventist, obviously Seventh day, because uh Adventists believe in Seventh-day Sabbath, but Adventists is we believe that Jesus is gonna come back really, really soon. So soon, like that we made some mistakes by setting dates, and then um I don't know if Adventists still believe as like that he's coming back as soon as they thought in the 19th century, but that's kind of who we are. So you're hanging out just like, well, when's he gonna show up?
SPEAKER_00I was ready. I was just like, all right, watching the clouds, waiting for the sky to roll back.
SPEAKER_01Ready, just like the just like the um, where were those Adventist story books? The Bible story. Like every picture in the Bible story is like Jesus coming out of these clouds and like mercy.
SPEAKER_03Hey, can you move the mic closer, like in between both of you? Where is it now?
SPEAKER_00Um we can hold it.
SPEAKER_03You can maybe set it up on something.
SPEAKER_00Is that better?
SPEAKER_03That is better. Okay, but you don't think your arm will get tired of holding it like that?
SPEAKER_00No, it'll be okay.
SPEAKER_03Are you sure? Yeah, put it on that, put it on that candle.
SPEAKER_00Never mind. We're gonna do this.
SPEAKER_03Is that how's that? Everybody just got pumped because they can hear you guys a little bit better. Um and Danny, you grew up in remind me, I think it's Maryland, but um on the East Coast somewhere. Hagerstown. Yep, right. And yeah, your background. Wait, what? Tell me, like, who was God to you growing up? What was the what was the background?
SPEAKER_01Oh, mine was um, and I think we talked about this last time when we tried recording, but mine was like pretty transactional right off the bat. Um, like I I think I remember telling you my first memory of God was I couldn't find this really small Lego piece, and I like said a prayer that was like, if I find the small Lego piece, I will be a servant of the Lord for the rest of my days, and then I found it two days later, and then I was like, I now have to be a servant of the Lord for the rest of my days. God's like, gotcha, gotcha. Um all it took was a leg. It was um it was pretty like similar. It was like conservative, but our family was like an oddball out in our church because like me and my brothers were public schooled, and like I said, like my dad would be watching whatever on the TV and he was cool with it. But if my mom saw it, she'd be like, absolutely not. But she was cool with SpongeBob. That was the best, she would watch that with us, it was very nice.
SPEAKER_03Uh and so growing up, you and God were cool. You like, how did
Danny’s Rules And Double Life
SPEAKER_03he feel about you in your mind?
SPEAKER_01Um, I th I think we were pretty cool. The the tough thing was I felt like I was living this double life of like I have to be one way in church, but in school, I have to be this other way to fit in, because um, you know, no one else in my school was Adventist, and they would always ask me all these questions about all these rules that I would tell them, like, you can't eat shrimp, you can't play video games on Saturday. Um, if you're if I'm with my grandpa, I can't even swim on Saturday, I can't go trick-or-treating, like all these things that you know just set us kind of apart in the Adventist world. It's like from a child's eyes. Uh and so I I remember thinking to myself pretty early on, like, there's so many rules, this is kind of hard to do. I just remember being like, being Adventist is really hard.
SPEAKER_03I think I felt that. I think I have felt that growing up because the cool stuff you can't do on Saturday. You're just like, I just want to do cool stuff with my friends. And yeah, yeah, that was a rule. No cool stuff.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and so I I remember just early on kind of being like especially when I hit middle school, I was like, I think I give up. Like, I'm fine being Adventist, but I think I give up on like trying to follow the rules all the time. So I was kind of seen as like not the ideal kid because I would like I was I was behaved well, but I I wouldn't care sometimes about like the rules because of that mindset.
SPEAKER_03I got you. So where did you guys link up?
SPEAKER_00Well, we first met when I moved to Maryland, and I went to uh Highland View Academy, which is where I met Danny, and where I also met Dominic and Connor.
SPEAKER_03And you were like, hey boys, can I interest you in a dented can? And they were like, Who is this mysterious girl from Florida with the with the new Tina and the um dinner roast?
SPEAKER_00That was me, the Lincolns and the Big Franks.
SPEAKER_03And so you met them. Uh was that your first year of high school?
SPEAKER_00Uh yeah. So my um freshman year of high school. Um, I went to Highland View Academy and met Danny for the first time. Um and yeah, we just, I mean, I we were in kind of the same friend group, but we were there's a it was an adventist school.
SPEAKER_01There was one friend group for the whole class.
SPEAKER_00The boys and then the girls.
SPEAKER_03That's true. The friend group that's that's hilarious. Well, there were a couple of friend groups in our in our school, boys and girls. That's funny. But you guys got to know each other, but you're freshmen, so you're pretty much still kind of kids. How did that go?
SPEAKER_01Um Allie was like shy. Allie was Ali was really shy. I remember like when I first started thinking about her as like, oh, I think I have a crush on her. I I was like, she's such a nice girl and such an at like an ideal like Adventist, like so by the book that like I was even afraid to say the word like stupid in front of her because I was like, she's gonna think I'm like
How They Met And Banquet Story
SPEAKER_01bad if I say anything. So I like I started trying to shape up for you. I was trying to like when I was around you, I was acting different.
SPEAKER_0013-year-old Danny? That's great.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I was like, I was like, I have never heard of Call of Duty in my life, and I I would never play it if I even had heard of it.
SPEAKER_03Like I I like paintings uh from the uh you know the mid-19th century. You know, I've I've really loved Monet, and she's like, oh, she's like, I like video games.
SPEAKER_01I heard they dropped a new hymnal. Yeah, I was I was I was trying to shape up, but you know, it was a little difficult when like both of your brothers are seniors in the same school, and like everybody knows you have a crush on this girl, and they tease you and the girl about it, and like Ali was not, you know, she she had no say in it.
SPEAKER_03It's just did you try to lie about it, Danny? Were you like, no way do I like you? Get out of here. I think I would just smile and be like, maybe. Depends who's asking. How did you take that, Allie? Were you like, no?
SPEAKER_00I wanted nothing to do with any attention whatsoever. Because I'm I Danny was right, I was very shy, and I was like, I just moved to this new school, this is my third school in the last like two years, and I just like I want to fly under the radar, and then um Danny has a crush on me, and I know it because everyone's told me, and then on top of that, Connor and Dominic's friends and Connor Dominic are like teasing Danny, and I'm like, please leave me alone. So yeah, I didn't really um I wasn't interested in Danny at all. Um, he did ask me to freshman year banquet, and he asked me. Um, we were sitting because we both played band together, both play clarinet. And so he's sitting next to I knew I was gonna pick the instrument.
SPEAKER_03I knew I was gonna pick clarinet. You guys, I don't know if you want to be typecasting this, but you guys look like you might play the clarinet. It's just it is what it is.
SPEAKER_01If if there's any SpongeBob fans, I started playing it because Squidward played it. Like, no joke, that's why I started it. But I stayed because Allie played it.
SPEAKER_03And I got it. And Allie's just playing it because she's like, I like the woodwinds. My parents didn't allow me to watch Spongebob.
SPEAKER_00Um, so Danny asked me to banquet um because we were we were upstairs in the cafeteria. There's no one out there because our other two friends ran away. They knew Danny's plan. So Danny's sitting next to me, and I'm sitting there. It was awkward. We're not talking. We're 13. We don't know how to talk. And so we're sitting there, and then Danny falls out of his chair, and then as he falls out of his chair onto the ground, I there's a little paper that gets thrown at me, and then I I just look at it. And so the Danny looks at me and he's like, Allie, open it. And it says, Allie, I'm dying to go to banquet with you.
SPEAKER_01I was dying on the ground, so I wasn't supposed to talk.
SPEAKER_03That is that's like Hollywood. That's good, right? Like that is that not good. Any any woman would have said yes. Did you say yes, Allie?
SPEAKER_00I said yes, but only as friends.
SPEAKER_03And that is the common like friend, like friend zoned. Friend zoned immediately, no chance.
SPEAKER_01I worked at an academy and I agreed. I agreed. I took what I could get, you know.
SPEAKER_03I feel bad. I when I worked at an academy, I would feel so bad for these girls. No, these guys didn't know what the flip they were doing, and they would ask these girls, and they would be like, Yeah, I think she would want to go with me. And these girls are like, like, not interested whatsoever. And so they have to say, Yeah, but justice friends, and it's sad. And I feel like that's what's going on right here. But there's a good, there's a there's a happy ending. Keep going. So, you guys, through those years, friends, on again, off again. What when did when did when did you Allie think, well, maybe I could be more than just a pal.
SPEAKER_00Well, um, we went to banquet and we were 13 and we didn't talk the whole time because we were both awkward. Naturally. But we have very cute photos of us, and those are very fun to show people.
SPEAKER_01We didn't, yeah, we didn't say a word to each other, but we do have some pictures together. I I need to see these photos.
SPEAKER_03Are they on Facebook? Um, I think my mom posted one.
SPEAKER_00Oh, for sure.
SPEAKER_03But I I I got it. I'll I'll I'll send it out. I need to see it. I need to see it.
SPEAKER_00If there if you need a cover for the podcast episode, it can just be that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no, no question.
SPEAKER_00Um anyway, so then I move away the next year. We talk a little bit, but like not really. I move away to Ohio um for three years, and then um Danny reaches back out right before like a senior year sometime, and he's like, Oh, Allie, where are you going to college? And I said, Oh, I'm going to Southern. And he says, Oh, no kidding, me too. Um, yeah, so we both go to Southern, and then we um Danny asks me out a few times. I I um I keep saying no, and then we sorry, Danny. It's a long story, but we're gonna keep it at that. Um, so then we both do um A and P together. And so we're we're doing A and P. Danny's the only person I know in the class, so I go and I sit next to him and we end up studying together.
SPEAKER_03And Danny starts who who has to study together? Was it Danny said, would you like to? Oh, we're doing anatomy and physiology. Would you like to study anatomy?
SPEAKER_01It was it was probably me, right? I think it was me. I was I was getting a little more confident in myself and I could actually speak words at this point.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's good.
SPEAKER_03Hopefully, you know, 18 years old, 19 years old.
College Reconnection And Dating Begins
SPEAKER_00It was good. It was good. I um I I I remember it just it would it changed for me because all of a sudden Danny, because I don't know, all growing up, Danny was just like very nervous.
SPEAKER_01Nerd. And it's okay, you got me nervous.
SPEAKER_00You were I mean, you were nervous.
SPEAKER_01I was I was nervous.
SPEAKER_00And you just didn't act like yourself. And so, and it just seemed like you kept acting like somebody who like I wanted you to be, and I just didn't really get I didn't really know who Danny was. And so then, like, we started studying together, and he just started like being himself, and he just started like being my friend. And then I'm like Oh Danny. So then I asked him out after he Asked me out four times and I said no. And then I said, Danny, will you go out with me? And his response.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I had to. So, you know, this is actually kind of sad because I I was like, I need to appear Christian. Like, I think that's that was my motive in that moment. I want to be honest about that. But I said, I need I have to pray about it.
SPEAKER_03I hit her with the eye. Will you go out with me? No. Will you go out with me? No. Will you go? And then finally, will you go out with me? I need to pray.
SPEAKER_01Just because I was like, I can't. And and you know, I did want to give the opportunity. Like, if this is not meant to happen, like something's gotta happen to me. Like, I gotta get hit by a car on the way back to tell her or something. And then, you know, I'll do message loud and clear. But I I prayed about it for like an hour. And I did, I genuinely did pray about it. That's and then I I hit Ali up and I was like, I gotta talk to you.
SPEAKER_03God says it's it may be okay, but there's some stipulations.
SPEAKER_01Um did you have to talk to her about? I well, I I couldn't just text her, yes. Like, I I'm a I'm a man of virtue, and I had to tell her in person, you know?
SPEAKER_03Heck yeah.
SPEAKER_01And so I was like, hey, I texted her and I was like, I gotta talk to you. And she was in like a show or something, if I'm remembering correctly. And she was like, You have to talk to me after my show. And I was like, Can I come watch your show or whatever? And she's like, No, she's like singing or something.
SPEAKER_00It was uh it was a voice performance, and I was and I I didn't want Danny to come watch because I was a nervous.
SPEAKER_03So you're okay. So then um you guys get together apparently when you he comes talk to you, he's like, the answer is yes. Uh how did that go?
SPEAKER_01Um, I think we ended we ended up having a conversation about it, and I was about to go work my first summer at Glacier View Ranch, which is in Colorado and far away. And Allie was gonna be doing clinicals for her physical therapy assistant program. And so we were gonna be pretty far away and pretty busy during the summer. And I remember us talking and coming to a decision of saying, if we are still interested in each other by the end of the summer, like when we come back to school, then I think we should go through with it. But I think we should hold off on becoming like an official couple. I think we should just do a talking phase during the summer.
SPEAKER_03How'd that work out?
SPEAKER_00It was good. We um, I mean, we got together at the end of the summer.
SPEAKER_03Danny was like, I asked a bunch of girls out and they didn't say yes, so uh no. So you but throughout that whole time you guys still kind of held each other like like that's that's who I want to date.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So we dated for um we were dating for about a year when we started to like well we were dating about like a just over a year when we broke up.
SPEAKER_03Why did you guys break up?
SPEAKER_00Okay, well multiple reasons. Um do you want to do five per second? Yeah, yeah. Talk about your perspective.
SPEAKER_03Are you the one who broke up with him?
SPEAKER_00I I am. She is.
SPEAKER_03So then it would your perspective would be the it would be important to understand this.
SPEAKER_00Very good, very good. Locking in. Okay. So um, yeah, dating Danny was really fun. We like had a like a lot of the same friend groups, and like I got to know his friend group a lot. Um, and it was yeah, really fun. We both had a really great college experience. I worked on campus ministries um for several years, and Danny then joined campus ministries as well. Um, yeah, really supportive friend group. It was super fun, loved my college experience. Um and so Danny and I are like dating, and um COVID, I think, is where things kind of like took a little bit of a downhill um because COVID hit and then we were all sent home, and um, we're doing the long distance thing, and I'm just like starting to feel like I'm a little bit more um I did I started to feel as though Danny's um value was hinging on whether or not um I was feeding him the value that he wanted. So like I I felt like it was becoming a codependent relationship. And based on other friendships that I had in the past, I was extremely resistant to like any kind of codependency whatsoever. And so um I just I felt like Danny didn't know who he was unless I was telling him, Oh, you're like like I love you and you're and I I told you today, I didn't, you know, I didn't miss telling you today, you know. Like I
Breakup And Codependency Exposed
SPEAKER_00I felt like if I didn't um act a certain way, then Danny wouldn't be um happy and pleased with with my um with how things were going. Um yeah, and I just kind of I became resentful. I became resentful towards having to um act a certain way.
SPEAKER_03Um there's pressure that comes with that, isn't there?
SPEAKER_00Yes. I don't know if you want to explain some of that.
SPEAKER_01Um I mean, yeah, I I was I was very sad about going home for COVID. I did not want to go home because you know I I was leaving my girlfriend that I I love spending time with, and all of my friends that I um enjoyed spending time with at Southern, and I I just went home and I wasn't the closest with my parents, so I was just kind of I I felt super isolated, and I think I was searching for this like one thing to be normal, and then I could I could just tell in your responses like almost each day, like they got shorter and like more scarce during the time, and like but I think in in my mind I was like, oh, I just have to try harder, which I think in turn like was suffocating you even more in terms of just putting pressure on you, and you know, I'm just not doing well, obviously.
SPEAKER_03And the neediness, was that was that a legit a legit thing that you were would you say that you were suffering with?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. I needed I needed to know that I was a good boyfriend, or that I was still loved, or I just I just needed someone to validate me in like anything, and I I was going to Allie for everything. It wasn't just like relationship, it was like I wasn't talking to my friends as much, but I was talking to trying to text Allie like every single second of every day, and it was just so much I put on her. So when you guys broke up, how did you take that, Danny?
SPEAKER_03Um not well.
SPEAKER_01I cried like a baby. Um and I was I was super sad, but I like I knew it was coming um because a few days before she she said that she needed a break from talking to me. And this is when we were back at Southern for the next semester. The whole summer had gone by with me just being needy in a few weeks at Southern, and I I remember like talking to my friends. I I went on a hike with them, and Allie had sent me a text, I need to talk to you. I remember telling my friends, like, I'm gonna get broken up with when I get back to Southern. Like, as soon as we get back and I talk to Ali, she's gonna break up with me. And they were they're all trying to be like really nice and be like, Well, you don't know that. And I was like, Okay. Yeah, right. Um, but it it was sad. I did not take it well, and I I just I mean, my grades were doing terrible after that.
SPEAKER_03I mean, even before that, but after that it wasn't you who was doing bad, it was your grades. Like, you were okay. That's a joke.
SPEAKER_02No, it was this is like it's those pesky grades.
SPEAKER_01I remember I remember my and I I hope he ends up listening to this, but my roommate um I he was studying for the MCAT, and I was like, I remember I was crying in my room and he was hugging me. It was like one of the most cutest like bro moments. He ended up being my best man at my wedding, he's my best friend, but um it was just like like it was it was crazy to see how much support I actually had from other people other than like Allie because I had been looking for it in Allie for so long. But at the same time, I since I was putting everything into my relationship, everything shattered because of that, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_03You know, us guys, we gotta rally together. You know, when one of us I remember my friend Buell, he would say that when somebody got broken up with when he was in college, they said that the guy got the brown helmet. It means exactly what you think it means, Allie. And so um he was like, oh, Danny, Danny got the brown helmet. And uh, guys, we gotta rally around each other. Um is this when you and I first started talking during this moment?
SPEAKER_01During this just about. I think uh so I reached out to Connor because he was we were calling him the breakup guru because he had just that appeared that year. I remember that story, and his um his engagement with with his uh ex-fiance, and so I was like, how did he get through this? Because this is miserable. So I reached out to Connor, and Connor was in with you guys. He was he was a new recruit. Um a new recruit. And um, he was living in Florida at this point, he had graduated, and I remember like talking to him, and he gave me Tyler Morrison's number, and he was like, talk to this guy. And so I ended up calling Tyler Morrison and talking to him for maybe like 15 minutes, and I don't even remember what we talked about, but um, I just remember being like, Well, that was a nice conversation, but I'm still really sad.
SPEAKER_03Tyler didn't fix all your problems.
SPEAKER_01Tyler did not fix me. Sorry, sorry to say Tyler. So what happened after that? Um I I remember I was talking to my professors about how I was not doing great uh in school, and I remember telling them that I didn't feel like myself anymore. And so I got what was called a medical withdrawal, which is where I had to get like a psychiatric evaluation uh by a medical professional that says I am not doing well mentally, and I wasn't. Um, and so they gave me a paper that said I was excused from classes for the rest of the semester, uh, and that I was allowed to restart resume my classes once I was mentally well enough to.
SPEAKER_03Uh can I name a lie? Can I name a lie here? Maybe you didn't experience this.
Hitting Bottom And Withdrawing From School
SPEAKER_03But as you're talking about this, like it's it's bringing up something in me. At any point when you're like spiraling and you're like having to drop out of school, at any point where you like, if Allie knows that I'm totally destroyed, maybe she'll be attracted to me because she means so much to me that like I'm dying, and maybe she'll think that's romantic. Did that thought cross your mind at all?
SPEAKER_01I think I I wanted her to know how sad I was, but I don't think that thought had ever crossed my mind of like if she saw how sad I was, like I I just in my mind, I was like, I mean, it's just over, but I'm like terribly distraught, and I wish she But why did you want her to know how sad you were? Because I I was I I mean I was feeling a lot, man, and I was like, this was the person I was sharing my whole life with, and then all of a sudden I can't, and I I wanted to share how sad I was.
SPEAKER_03Okay. So maybe if a guy's listening to this and they tried this strategy, and maybe you didn't have that strategy, but they want let's ask Allie, is that attractive? Like when like the guy is like, Yeah, um everything sucks and my life's over because you dumped me. Does that bring attraction for that guy?
SPEAKER_00Without a doubt. Most attractive thing I've ever heard. I'm very kidding. No, it's not attractive.
SPEAKER_03Were you like, get it like what was your mindset? Were you like, geez, bro, like get a hold of yourself? Or what what were you thinking about all of this?
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean, these were all reasons why I broke up with Danny in the first place, just because like um it just didn't seem like he was like um like doing well in sp in the way that he could like participate in a relationship in a healthy way. Um and so I was I felt like again, I was just the source of all of his um value. And so um, and I guess that you know, at this time too, I think that my relationship with with Jesus and who I was was becoming more complex because like um, you know, when you're when I was young, it was very much like, oh, Jesus loves me, and like that's it. And then when I got into like high school and college, it's more it's like, oh, Jesus loves you, but you have to go to church on Saturday, and like Jesus loves you, but you have to wait until marriage to have sex. And like Jesus loves you, but you have to like do all of these things, be really involved and like say the right things and have the right friends. Um, and so I I'm trying to perform in all of these ways so that Jesus will keep loving me. Um and then we have Danny who is um feeding right into that lie because I was you know trying my best to love him, but then it wasn't enough because Danny still wasn't happy and he wasn't um you know, he wasn't like confident, he wasn't all the things that I was looking for, and it was it was my fault. Um and so it was like oh Danny loves me, but only if I perform in a certain way, only if I'm you know able to offer him specific things.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and us guys, the reason why I brought up that that strategy it's because that's the playbook I used, because I was like I I would say that Danny and I share sensitivity as one of the things that um I don't know. Am I speaking out of school, Danny? Would you say that you're a sensitive guy?
SPEAKER_01No, I'm an unsensitive fella, just like you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I was a sensitive guy, and I thought that that would endear me to somebody, but it it pushed them away. And it isn't attractive, and so yeah, there's a reason why I understand these things. So, Danny, like we we don't know what works. We're we're we're like our hearts are like outside of our chest, they're on our sleeve, and we're like, oh, if everybody sees how sensitive I am, but it doesn't work that way. So what did you you you how did you deal with all of this?
SPEAKER_01Um so I like I said, I wasn't doing classes anymore, and then I was still I was talking to Connor about it like daily. I would call him for like an hour each day. Um, and he was starting to to get me on this uh this uh wave one thing. Uh he was he kept talking about this thing called wave one and they that you guys were gonna start doing it soon. Uh and he all he gave me your number and I remember calling you, and I I think you remember me calling you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it was about like you dropping out and like you were feeling really bad about dropping out.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. And I was like, I don't know what to do with my life, man. Like, I my life's over as I as I know it.
SPEAKER_03And I was like, no, it's not. You can come back. It's easy for me to say, but like like I tried to encourage you as best as I could, like, yeah, you can just come back next semester and you might need that time off. I think this was like our first conversation. Like, maybe Connor texted me, like, my brother's gonna call you or something, and I was like, Oh, cool. And it's like our first conversation, you're like, what do I do with my life? And I'm like, oh man. And I'm like, I think you're gonna be all right, bro. Just hang in and God loves you so much. And I think I'm I'm probably sure I shared something about identity with you.
SPEAKER_01Mm-hmm. And I I think you had mentioned something about the podcast too. And so I I remember that was the first thing I listened to. Maybe, maybe wave one had started, and I had gone to a few meetings, and everybody knew me as Connor's little brother in there. Um, but but then I started listening to the podcast, and it was Tyler's episode. So, in a way, maybe Tyler, maybe it did work. Uh, just not in that first conversation. But um, I was listening to it, and I remember Tyler talking about like his his relationship
Danny’s Breakthrough Into Gospel Freedom
SPEAKER_01with with um his wife and how everything was going. And I I remember at one point where he was talking about how he could be okay even when um she wasn't, and I was baffled by that. I was like, I could never, I could never do that. And and he was talking about how um Jesus was able to empower him through freedom to be okay despite circumstances, and I was like, I just remember I was walking on Southern's track, all sad and depressed, and then the next thing I knew, I was no longer all sad and depressed, and I was free. I just remember like standing there and I was like, I'm good. Like, I am okay. Um, and it was baffling because it wasn't just like I'm good for five minutes. It was like I went to bed that night and I slept well without like thinking about how sad my circumstances were. I wasn't I wasn't dwelling on anything. I was able to get a good night's sleep for the first time in like weeks. It was crazy for me.
SPEAKER_03Wow. And it was just the the idea was what was the main idea that allowed you to be okay?
SPEAKER_01The main idea was despite my circumstances, I'm able to be a restful spirit no matter what's going on, and I don't need validation to continue to fuel that restful spirit. Not validation from from any person, at least. I'd have validation from the only the only one that matters, you know.
SPEAKER_03Wow. That revelation will that'll help. That will change some things for you. So you're like you're feeling free.
SPEAKER_01You're feeling light, man. So what what happened next? Um well, you know, I I think I called Connor next and told him I I think I remember calling and being like, I get it. Like it was the hardest math problem I've ever solved, but it was actually simple. Um, but I remember like calling him and and being like, I get it, man. And we talked and he was so happy about it. He was like, I've been trying to nail this in you for like a year, man. I'm like, I know, I'm sorry. Um, and then my next thought was like, I gotta tell Allie. I gotta let Allie know that she's okay. Because despite like her being the one that broke up with me, I I when we broke up, I could still tell that she was sad about it as well. And I was like, I'm sure she's still sad at this point in time, too. And I was like, I want her to know that she doesn't have to be sad.
SPEAKER_03That's so sincere and sweet. Um, because yeah, I mean you still loved her, you really cared about her, yeah, but you didn't know who you were yourself in order to really, you know, really lay it down your life. So, Ali, how did how did you take what like what what was that experience of getting this text or phone call from Danny that he wants to tell you about the gospel?
SPEAKER_00Um well, along that same time. Well, I was also talking to Connor. Connor, Connor just uh he was the break of the city. Connor's the man. He is the man. He is the man.
SPEAKER_03We love Connor.
SPEAKER_00So he was talking to me, and like Danny and I had we had gone to like the love reality, the the first Zoom meetings that were done and um in 2020, and we were there. We just like were kind of like listening in the background. We didn't, I mean it all went over our heads, we didn't know we were listening to. Um, and so we like knew what it was, and we knew Connor was into it. Um, and so then like Connor's like talking to me about all this stuff, and he's like, Allie, you know that you you're like you're good, like no matter what. And I'm like, yeah, oh thanks, Connor. I know, I totally get it. Yeah, like I know that I'm good, I'm fine.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I wasn't, but and the what the what was the thing that was not fine?
SPEAKER_00Well, I threw for a long time, um, like my understanding of how God loved me and how Nick Danny loved me and how I was like to receive love from anybody else, it was very conditional. It was very much like I have to earn any kind of love that I'm going to receive. And um, that was you know, it wasn't my parents. It was it was very much like growing up in the Christian background to where like my worth and value was based on my actions. So, like um in high school, I don't know if you ever did this, but like in high school, we have the experience where the protest comes in and he brings a brownie, and then he has the brownie and he says, Okay, who wants to eat this brownie? And then everyone's like, Oh my gosh, I want to eat the brownie. Um, and then you then you know you pass the brownie or Around to all the students who
Allie’s Freedom From Conditional Love
SPEAKER_00then hold and squish and poke their fingers in the brownie. And then he's like, Okay, at the end, and then who wants to eat this brownie? And of course, nobody's like, Oh, nobody wants to eat that brownie. And he says, and that is women when you and men when you don't when you have sex before marriage.
SPEAKER_03And like I haven't heard the brownie one. Oh you never heard the brownie one?
SPEAKER_00That's good.
SPEAKER_03No, I mean, we talked about they talked about who wants to buy the cow when you can get the milk for free. They talked about that thing, but it's like purity culture shaming style.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So like it was it was that kind of stuff, then layering on and you're like, I don't want to be a passed around brownie. Sure don't, sure don't. And so I'm working hard to be like this perfect, like Christian, whatever, this is a perfect Adventist. Um, in like to all for the goal of being worthy of love. And I was working really hard to be worthy of Danny's love, and it wasn't working. Um, and I was working really hard to be worthy of God's love, and it just it wasn't working. I just constantly felt inadequate because I always felt like I had to do more. Um, and then I mean that's kind of what led me into like how like that was my big epiphany for understanding freedom. And I can talk about that if you're ready for that.
SPEAKER_03I I think I'm ready.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Um, so I was going like we were going to the I was still going to the Friday night Bible studies because Connor was like, Allie, you should come. I'm like, okay. And so I'm going to the Friday night Bible studies and to and do the Saturday morning Bible studies, um, and you know, the Sabbath Sabbath mornings, and um we had a bunch of stuff going on back then.
SPEAKER_01There were so yeah, there was like something every day. It was crazy. It's awesome. It was good times.
SPEAKER_00Oh, it was a great time. Um, the Bible study sharks coming around. I'm like, wait, please don't talk to me. Um and so and so um I I ended up messaging after after one of them the Saturday mornings. I messaged Serena and I was like, hey, I just have a few questions. Can I like talk it out? And she's like, sure. And so we talk afterwards, and she ends up just talking to me and is just like explaining all this stuff, and like Ali, you realize like you you don't have to try to be good enough in order to be loved, and like you don't have to try to be good enough in order for like your value to be better, like your value is set in stone, it's not based on you or up to you, like you have value just because of who you are, because you're a child, you're a daughter. Um and and that's like was super impactful for me in understanding it is I was like, oh, wait a second, I don't have to work in order to be loved at all. I just am already loved as is.
SPEAKER_03That epiphany that you are loved, and it sounds simple, and um Dan Muller always says he says, it's one thing for me to tell you that God loves you, but it's another thing for you to be loved by God. And it sounds like in that moment you're like, Oh, I like you receive God's love in a way that you hadn't before.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yep. It was almost like I came back to the understanding of like Jesus loves me, and like that's it.
SPEAKER_03There's no but, there's no so um now you're right, now like you've had a revelation, like there's been something that has actually changed in your heart. You and Danny weren't talking at this point.
SPEAKER_00Um, technically, no, but like you know, we were both, you know, wanting each other back, of course. And so we're like kind of communicating, but not really. Anyway, we message each other.
SPEAKER_03That's a special time.
SPEAKER_00Oh, it's special, that's for sure. Um, and so like you know, he messages me and he's like, Allie, like you're good, you don't have to be sad or whatever. And then I'm like, okay, and then I actually get it, and I'm like, oh, no, no, no, like I I understand, and I'm like, I want to talk to you about this, and so then we get together and we talk, and we're like, this is actually really cool. And then we were like, so should we get back together?
SPEAKER_03Like the gospel has changed everything, and now I don't need you, and you don't need me, but maybe it's good. Yeah, yeah. That's hilarious. Um like I wouldn't say that well, maybe would you say that love reality had like uh influence in you guys getting back together and getting married, then? Would you say that?
SPEAKER_00I would say so, but like it not not in an unhealthy way. I would say like it helped Russ realize that like independently we can be really good solid people without needing the other person. Um, and I mean, we're I mean, we were I don't know, I mean we're we're still super baby in this. Like we we thought we knew everything, but we were so baby in like understanding all of this.
SPEAKER_03Um I think uh I think that's like literally all of us. Yeah, like when you think of 2020, 2021, you think like how much zeal we had, like you said, the Bible study sharks. I may or may not have been one of those Bible study sharks. Like, like we were just zealous because like the gospel had changed our lives. Like we had seen it and we had seen miracles, and so we're just like, yeah, this is the answer. Um, and it still is the answer, and yet we may or may not talk the same way that we used to. We still believe in it and it still has the power to change lives, but maybe we were like, Yeah, I don't know. Maybe it's good that we were that way. I don't know. Like, I you can't you can't learn it until you learn it, and so we just keep growing and growing. So you guys got back together, and when you got back together, was it just like we're on the road to like this is pretty serious?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like I mean, a year went by, and then you know, Danny's moving, he's fit he's finishing up nursing school, he's going to Ohio. Um, we're like on the track to getting married. He asked me to be his wife. We we get engaged.
SPEAKER_03Um you remember when I went down there and you're like, I don't know if he's gonna ask me. And I was like, he's probably gonna ask you. And you were like stressed out about it. You're like, I don't know what the what he is. I'm like, nah, he's probably gonna ask you. I don't know if I said it like that, but I'm like, yeah, it's a lock.
SPEAKER_01Oh my god is that when we were at Ben Williams with him?
SPEAKER_00Uh no, but Ben Williams was visiting.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I was there with Ben. I visited because Ben was there, and you pulled me aside, and and we were in the student center, and you're just like, I don't know if he's gonna ask me. I'm like, nah. You got this.
unknownYep.
SPEAKER_03But then you got married, keep going. And life kept on life.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I feel like you have good momentum. I don't want to throw you off. You have you have a goal where you're going, and my brain is like scrambling to figure out where to where to start up again.
SPEAKER_00You're doing great, Danny. I'm gonna give you lots of pro I'm gonna give you lots of momentum here. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00Um, so I'd like to talk a little bit about our early marriage, if that's okay.
SPEAKER_03I'm ready.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So um I cringe talking about this, but I feel like it's best for me to be honest to share. I really was excited to be married. Um, and in my good little Christian upbringing, that was like one of my main goals in life. And I was like, yeah, my I'm gonna grow, I'm gonna go to college, I'm gonna date a really nice boy, we're and then we're gonna get married. I'll probably work, I guess. Like, but like my goal in life is to get married. And then I didn't have any goals in life after that. And I didn't realize that going into this, like in this stage of life, I didn't realize that. But looking back, I recognized that my brain, I had like a I was a one-track mind. I knew that like everything about my life was going to be fulfilled and get better as soon as I got married, and I was just so excited for that.
SPEAKER_03Well, how could you know something different?
SPEAKER_00How could I know?
SPEAKER_03I mean, that's the thing, is like we know now, but back then, like I could have said, you know, there's more to life than just being married, and you would have been like, I know. But I mean, you don't know until you really know, and all the things that your parents say when you're growing up, you don't realize that they're correct until afterwards, and when you've made that mistake and you're like, they did tell me about that, and now it's locking in and making sense, and you can think, you know what, they the reason they know that they probably made the same mistake.
SPEAKER_00Correct. Yes. Um, so I just I had this this uh viewpoint of like this is this is the point of my life is to
Marriage Expectations Meet Real Life
SPEAKER_00get married and be a really great wife. Um and so I you know I'm coming into freedom and I'm understanding this like all my worth isn't based on what I do. I am like, oh, love it, loving living out of this and like figuring out the lies and like and stuff. And then I get married and I'm like perfect. Can't wait for my life to be amazing in this beautiful marriage because it's gonna be so great. Um well it for first of all, I'm like, where is it going? It was first of all, it was not perfect as I was expecting it to be. Shocker. Um, but an important part of marriage that I um was expecting to be perfect was was I was excited about this thing that we were able to have sex now because finally, you know, we're married. That this is the point. It's not the point of getting married. I'm not saying that, but it was like this was a it's a nice perk.
SPEAKER_03It's like, yeah, we've been waiting for a little bit of time now. Like, let's go. People have been talking about this, and it sounds pretty good. I heard a guy say something about it.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. Uh, I was like, oh, perfect. This is like, yeah, it's gonna be great. My parents, you know, were like, Allie, you waited, and it's it, you know, good job waiting. Now, if this is gonna be the best thing ever, and we're super excited for you. And so that's how I have always like coming into marriage. I was like, I always heard sex is horrible outside of marriage. It's not fun, it doesn't feel good, it's just not good until you get married, and then it's great. You know what you're doing, you just like it's the best thing ever.
SPEAKER_03You're so sweet. Uh you're so sweet.
SPEAKER_00And so I have a lot of I I do not have a good time. I have horrible pain with sex, and for and I was like, okay, yeah, but that's fine. It's just the first time it'll get better. Well, uh, newsflash, it did not get better. It was horrible for two years. And so I'm wrestling with all of this in marriage. I'm like, okay, I need to be a you know, okay, so you know, my worth was dependent on my actions, right? Before coming into freedom. And then I understood, oh wow, my worth is not based on my actions, it's based on what God says about me. And I understood that. And then I get married, and then the new lie was, oh, I'm only a good wife if Danny is happy and if he's content and if he's doing well mentally. That's what my indicator of is of my value as a good wife. And so when I couldn't offer him this thing that I was supposed to offer him, um, then, and and I had I had a very unhealthy view about sex as well. I it was very much like, you might not want to do it, but you're gonna have to because that's what your husband wants. And that's how you keep your husband happy. And so I wasn't able to do this thing that would keep my husband happy. And so, like, my worth was just tied up in that. Which then led to um Danny not feeling good because I was like, I didn't want to do this thing or anything similar to those things. Like Danny would get close to me physically on the couch, we'd be sitting together, and then I'd be like freezing up and not wanting to be close to him at all because I just didn't want to give him any indication that I was like open to any sort of physical activities because it was painful, it was embarrassing, it was supposed to be great, and it wasn't, and it was all my fault.
SPEAKER_03Let's talk about this for a second, because you know, we were talking earlier, and we believe at some level that we're the only person that this thing has ever happened to. And why? Well, because they don't show in La La Land or the Hollywood movies or whatever, like, let's make a story about a couple and they're struggling, they're they're in love with each other, they love God, but they have this struggle here. No, everything is just it's it's a cartoon, it's not real. And so when people get into marriage and they realize, oh, oh, this is difficult. This this aspect is difficult. And instead of understanding, like, oh, we're human beings and there's different areas where we might struggle and we have to grow or we might have to work this out, and or like being intimate, like we're vulnerable, and in that vulnerability, sometimes, like if we believe a lie, we can that can stop us. We don't we don't think that we think this, what's wrong with me? And if you're gonna ask what's wrong with you, it then there there has to be something wrong that you need to fix. And this is the thing about a relationship, you don't you don't fix a relationship. You're in a relationship with a person. Because if you're you're fixing it, it's like, oh, this thing, and we've just we're gonna tinker with it. And if we just get this thing right and we turn this knob and we figure, well, then we'll be happy rather than we're actually sharing our lives with each other, we're looking at each other like and like we're strong for each other. So what you have described or what you thought marriage was is kind of like this A-frame. It's this A-frame, but if it's an A-frame, and the listener can't see my
Painful Sex And Shame Spirals
SPEAKER_03hands are like in a little triangle. If one person falls over, the other person falls with them. And what it's supposed to be is is like two people standing straight up and and embracing, like, but they're not leaning on each other so much that if one falls, the other one falls. If one falls here, the other one can pick them up. We're supposed to be helpful for each to each other, but we've been programmed by pornography, Hollywood, you know, shame, where we can't talk about these things because I'm abnormal, I'm weird, and there's so many people um dealing with some sort of, and this word's gonna sound harsh, but it is not harsh, sexual dysfunction, meaning like, oh, my body isn't acting the way I want it to, and then fear comes in, and then fear makes it harder to act that way. When what we need is actually grace for each other and to remove any kind of shame and fear and say, hey, you know, I love you, I love you, and I'm here for you, and we're gonna get through this, we're we can figure it out. It's not broken, it's just we're going to, we're gonna, we're gonna love each other. And in that way, and this is why sex is is beautiful in this way, that it teaches us so much. It teaches us, and we grow through experiencing all these things because so many lies come up about sex, because it you're dealing with your body, you're dealing with like a very intimate thing to you, and and and you don't want to mess this up. And you and so learning about it gives a chance for even deeper intimacy and deeper freedom when all these lies come up and you have to deal with them. I mean, am I right? What what do you what do you think about that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I absolutely agree with you. I think there's so much that we like bring into our sex life that like what is a byproduct of like things that we've learned, whether it's like through like what you're saying, pornography, or whether it's like, you know, my high school experience with the brownie, like there's so much that we bring into it um unknowingly, and all of the expectations that we had, and then like you said, like if you're just dealing with a very intimate personal thing, and then you're two people who are like still getting to know each other, but it um yeah, there's a lot there's a lot more that you're bringing in than just like simple things.
SPEAKER_03And and it deals with the heart of it. So, Danny, like as you're experiencing this, you know, everything was gonna be perfect when you get married, and you realize, oh, like it's not as perfect as I thought. How did you walk through that?
SPEAKER_01Um, well, I mean, of course it was like something I was very much looking forward to, and then I think initially what I thought was that it was gonna be like, oh, just the first few times, and then like it'll probably be fine after that. But um, as it kept going, I started thinking to myself, what like am I doing wrong? Um, especially because like anytime I would try and like even just like hugging um, you know, at the end of the day or at the beginning of the day, um, like seemed like it was unwelcomed through body language. There was never like like Allie never really said much, but she would definitely like pull away in that kind of thing. And so I was like, oh man, I am messing up like physical intimacy in the marriage. Um, because I just I like I was like, I don't know what to do at this point. Um, and I would have this internal battle of oh, it's my fault, but then in the back of my mind, I'd be like, well, actually, it's kind of like her fault. Um so I would go back and forth on that and I would act on both of those, and it was a very inconsistent thing for Allie to deal with because sometimes I was really, really supportive, and then sometimes I was like grumpy um and not so like not supportive whatsoever. And so it started leading to this which Danny am I gonna get today?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and you can see there's fear on both sides. And as I've been learning more and more about fear, fear always has to do with the future. Like they say, if you want to have shame, have a past. If you want to have fear, have a future. So you, when Danny comes to hug you, you don't want to hug him because of fear of, well, that could lead to this, and this could lead to this, and then it could lead to like me finding this out that there's something wrong with me, that I'm not enough, that I'm broken. And Danny's fear is, oh, you know, what if we can't do this? And what if we can't do that, and that's our lot in life, and you know, we're not able to do and there's that fear, and all of it is it's deception because it's actually not happening. It's just this fear like what could happen. And so when perfect love casts out all fear and God doesn't give us a spirit of fear, that means that we can actually learn and grow and be there with each other and walk with each other through this. And I don't know if like you were impressed to go to a doctor or you were impressed to talk to someone who had had the same experience. Um, but there are answers. Like you aren't the only other, the only person that has ever experienced this. Um, so how did God what did God teach you through this?
SPEAKER_00Um, I think that like it was just uh, you know, we were, you know, we're newly married, figuring things out, um, and like the struggles that we were going through and the arguments that we had, a lot of them kind of focused on this idea of like um me wanting to be better, but then not knowing how, and then also being terrified to put myself out there to actually work to be better. And so I'd be like, no, Danny, like I really want to try, I want to take steps to like figure it out. I want to like, I want to keep trying it. And then, you know, he'd be like, Yeah, but like, do you though? Because we never actually do it. And um, it would just be it would be we were both feeding into each other's lies. Like, I I thought that I wasn't good enough because I wasn't um performing well, and then Danny thought that like he wasn't a good husband because of um like he wasn't able to help me through this, and then he also wasn't feeling like important because I wasn't prioritizing him, and I wasn't like willing to to do this thing, right? Would you agree?
SPEAKER_01I would agree I would agree with that. Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um and so like a lot I remember just like after we had a big argument and Danny was had had said some hurtful things, and I was just like laying on the the bed, and I was just like, No, like I know that Danny said that, but I know that he doesn't mean it. No matter what, like, God loves me. And like
Learning Communication Without Fear
SPEAKER_00true. Like trying, and it really hurt in those moments, but like through those moments, still, even though we were like just fresh out of having an argument, and like my heart was hurting, it was like I just continued to try to remind myself and to like live in the understanding of it, like, okay, that my body isn't working, this is really frustrating. I feel like I'm broken, and I feel like I'm not like performing well, and I feel like my value is hinging on this, but like Jesus loves me, and like that's that's enough. And so even if I can't perform and do this thing, like Jesus loves me, and like even if Danny said some hurtful things like Jesus loves me, and like trying to coat that lie that I wasn't good enough, and that I kept living that lie out every single time that Danny and I tried to be close like that, and that lie kept getting reinforced that I was broken and I wasn't good enough. Like it, I just was like, we know, like I know this really hurts my my heart, but like I'm good enough. I'm a good wife. My my value as a wife is not dependent on whether or not Danny's happy. Um, and um, yeah, it was like I'm not gonna say that there was a like moment where I was like, oh, I'm you know, coming into this freedom, this understanding again. It was more like a long-standing, like Jesus just walking through me with that um and continually reminding me, even when I was hurting, like that I'm still good enough. He loves me, my value hasn't changed whatsoever, even if my body's not acting how I'd like it to be.
SPEAKER_03You know, when you guys are experiencing this, it's difficult because both of you were sincere, but like your communication. I'm not sure that Danny could repeat back to you that you're scared and you're feeling this fear, and like that you're in it, but you're you're like you're afraid. I'm not sure he could, and I'm not sure you could say, Oh, he's he's feeling ashamed. He's feeling like he's not enough. And that's the thing, is because what gets in the way is overall fear and overall shame. And when we're operating from that deception of fear, we can't really communicate and open up and just be honest and say, Hey, I am frustrated and I am nervous because it doesn't seem like my body is cooperating with what I actually want to do. Like if you were to say that to Danny, I'm nervous and I'm frustrated that my body is not, and he would reply, you know, like he would actually hear your heart and would reply to you, like, I feel like I'm scared because I don't feel like I'm enough or that I haven't shown up in the way for you. And when people are like when they remove fear and they remove shame and they just communicate their hearts to one another, like it really feels amazing to be heard and to be understood. And I know like we think, oh, women just want to be heard and understood. Guys want to be heard and understood as well. Like, it feels amazing for guys to be heard and understood, and for women to be heard and understood. And on that, like when you speak with that, and I'm gonna give a plug to this book. It's called Nonviolent Communication. I've talked to Danny about it, it's one of my favorite books, and it teaches you how to be able to actually hear them so that there's connection there at a deeper level. And the enemy has come and has wanted to keep us afraid. Like I was talking to somebody yesterday, and they're like, Man, why is it that you're able to talk about these real things? Because it's somebody that I coach um in uh in a porn habit program that I have. And there he was like, Why are you able to just talk about these real things? And it's because shame and fear have been removed. And it doesn't mean that I don't ever feel them, it just means that I see it for the deception that it is. And so, in this way, like as you're walking through life, and this may not be it might not be the only thing that you and Danny deal with in your marriage. Like, you might have kids one day, you might like, and there's stuff that comes with that if you see the fear as a deception, as you see the shame as a deception, and you remove those things, you guys, I see you guys connecting at a heart level, and I think that you'll continue to grow in that intimacy. And you were mentioning like God has helped you find people that have been able to talk you through this, and you're growing. And I mean, knowing you guys the last year, I've seen that you've just been growing and growing in intimacy with with each other and God.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I think um, yeah, I was able to, I mean, Danny and I spent a lot of time talking about it. Um, something like some things that were impactful for us in helping to get to that point where you're talking about like being able to um like talk things through in a way that is we're able to like communicate our feelings in a way that's like respectful to the other person, um, but also respectful to ourselves. It's taking us a while, but like I mean, you gotta practice it.
SPEAKER_03You gotta practice it.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. We're four years into this. We're like we're we're barely in, we're barely scraping the surface of marriage. Um, but like something that was that was helpful for us was to be able to number one, like have couples that we were able to talk to about like we don't know what we're doing, about like just how to talk to each other. And like Connor and Erica were, I mean, through everything, they've just been so um helpful in being able to just like all right, well, like let's take a step back. You know, when you're when we're having an argument or like um not understanding each other, then they were they've always been super helpful about helping us be able to communicate in a kind and respectful way, and it's something that like we're continuing to learn. Um, we went to couples therapy for a year, and like while I don't know if that cured our relationship, um, because like you said, relationship is not something to be fixed, um, it was helpful in that it gave us a like a set aside time to just talk about our relationship, um, and just like just have time to talk about it. That was like we paid for this, like we're going to talk about like um and so that was helpful in helping us to be able to talk those things out. But um, and then for me personally, physical therapy was huge. Um, and that that does exist um to help people through
Therapy Help And Practical Support
SPEAKER_00that. Um, and I remember the first time that like Danny and I were able to that that I was able to participate in that particular activity successfully without pain, uh, I remember like just immediately bursting into tears and crying. And I was just like, wow, like I'm not broken. And I said that out loud, and I knew that wasn't the case in my heart, but like being like, like saying, like, no, no, I'm not broken. And then Danny says, he's like, well, Danny, like, or he says, like, well, Allie, like you never were broken.
SPEAKER_03Praise the Lord. Uh, and thank you for being vulnerable and sharing this because, like, this is the kind of thing that in the church we don't like to talk about, and then you know, it does not lead to it's not helpful. And uh, as a body of Christ, like we're not we're not here to do this by ourselves, we're here to lean on each other, we're here to um bear each other's burdens. And with the stuff that's really, and that doesn't mean just like, oh, I had a bad week. Like, if you're in a church, find a woman's group, find a men's group, find people that love God and love you, that they can pour into your into your life. Uh, because there's people who have more experience, they've been there, and maybe they've taken some lumps so that you don't have to take them, so that you can grow. And so God is, you know, I've seen you guys, uh, and I see God is continuing to work and grow you. If you could go back to Allie and Danny right after freedom and right about to get married, with what you know now, what you if you got to take them out to eat, how would you minister to them? What would you say?
SPEAKER_01That's a good question. Um, I would I would tell my younger self, am I talking to both or just Danny?
SPEAKER_03You're probably talking to Danny like like he's sitting on your side of the booth and you're like, Dan, let me let me tell you this. And then you open it up and you can say something to to younger Allie as well.
SPEAKER_01I would, I would, I would tell him, like, essentially you don't have to worry as much as you do, and you gotta stop putting your worth in other people. Like, you can you can be your own person and it it can be a great thing. It doesn't have to be the scary thing of doing of being all alone. Um, it it doesn't mean that you're all alone if you're functioning on your like by yourself, and you just don't need the validation from from another person, specifically your partner. Um, and then I would tell Allie, like, thank you for your patience. You're gonna do great.
SPEAKER_03That's beautiful. What would you say, Allie? Um first to to younger Allie, and then I want to hear what you're gonna say to young young Dan.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Um, I think to younger Allie, I'd probably say, girl, you're stressing too much. It's gonna be fine. Um, like, I don't know. I think I would just re-emphasize that, like, no matter what happens, you are so established in who you are. And even if it doesn't
What We’d Tell Our Younger Selves
SPEAKER_00feel like you're established, you absolutely are. You have supportive people in your life that can help remind you of that, but like you're good, you're set, you are you are solid, you are loved, you are who you are, and that's that's that's good enough.
SPEAKER_02Um love it.
SPEAKER_00And then to younger Danny, I think I would just I would I would affirm younger Danny. I think I would tell him, like, Danny, you are such a good partner, and like you love so deeply, and you care incredibly well about your partner, and I think you know the fear absolutely gets in the way of that sometimes, but like the core of who Danny is, and you know, in times when we've had arguments or or times like that, like Danny loves me, and I think I would remind younger Danny of that. Like, you love Allie so much, um, and and God loves you, and like yeah, that's it. You're a really good husband. That's a bad talent.
SPEAKER_03Man, I'm feeling good after hearing all that. Um thank you guys uh for coming on. I really think that you guys are a city on a hill. I know um I see what Danny's doing with work and how he's loving you. How I know that you're in school and um you're growing, and I just see your good works and I glorify your father in heaven. And I think there's just gonna be more and more as you keep on going and blessing people's lives wherever you go. So, and I think this episode is a part of it. I think some people will hear this and be blessed by um by you sharing with us. So thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for having us. Yeah, it's super fun. We are very honored.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01I love hanging with you, Rich.
SPEAKER_03I love hanging with you, dog.