Death to Life podcast
A podcast that tells the stories of people that used to be one way, and now are completely different, and the thing that happened in between was Jesus.
Death to Life podcast
#274: Savannah Carlson, Gospel Over Guilt
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
We sit down with Savannah to trace how fear, secrecy, and image-management in church culture fed a long cycle of shame and sexual sin, even while she tried hard to be a “good Christian.” A breakthrough in Hebrews 9 reframes everything, moving her from dead works to a confident identity in Christ that actually empowers lasting change.
• growing up in a Christian home where weakness feels unsafe
• chasing affirmation and confusing performance with closeness to God
• a youth leadership “contract” that teaches secrecy over confession
• the weekly cycle of temptation, crossing lines, guilt, and condemnation
• how shame spreads through family and friend reactions
• Hebrews 9 and “dead works” as the turning point
• learning righteousness, forgiveness, and freedom through Jesus as High Priest
• Romans 6 and renewing the mind as a daily practice
• redefining humility as receiving what God already gave
• helping others through coaching that targets limiting beliefs and gospel truth
💰 DONATE & SUPPORT our Ministry: lovereality.org/give
👍 LIKE us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/alovereality
📷 FOLLOW us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/riyoung31/
📚 LEARN more at our site: lovereality.org
Join us for the best gathering on the internet, Internet Church. Every other Friday. Find out at www.lovereality.org/circles
Continue growing with friends! Join a circle over at www.lovereality.org/circles
Why These Stories Matter
SPEAKER_01The world doesn't think that the gospel can change your life, but we know that it can. And that's why we want you to hear these stories: stories of transformation, stories of freedom, people getting free from sin and healed from sin because of Jesus. This is death to life.
Meeting Savannah And Starting Point
SPEAKER_01Yo, welcome to the Death to Life podcast. My name is Richard Young, and today's guest is someone that I have spoken to for a total of about um two minutes. But I know it's gonna be an awesome episode because uh my buddy Justin was like, Rich, thought about having Savannah on, and I said, Who's that? And he sent me the Instagram, and I was like, Okay, this is different. Yeah, let's let's go. This is different. And so uh it's gonna be uh it's gonna be a good one. We're gonna find out what's happened in her life. So buckle up and strap in. Uh, this is gonna be Savannah. Love y'all and appreciate y'all. Savannah, what's up? Where are you from? Where does this story start? Take us to where you want to take us. Where are you taking us?
SPEAKER_02Oh my goodness. I'll take you right back to the beginning. But first of all, so honored to be here. Excuse me. So honor to be here. So sorry for my cough. Um, hopefully that does not stick around with us. But yeah, so honor to be here. So excited to share my story and talk about the gospel and magnify the Lord with you guys. But yeah, for me, I um grew up in a Christian home. My oh, Rich, you'll get this if you uh listen to the radio at all when you lived in Minnesota. But my dad works for KTIS, which is like, or that's like um life, whatever, uh radio station, and it's like it's comparable to Caleb, it's all around the nation, but it's funny. I don't know, Minnesota people love that. What does he do for that?
SPEAKER_01Is he a DJ or is he just like in the background?
SPEAKER_02He's a radio engineer. He used to be on, he's been working there for like 40 years. He's like, yeah, just loves his job so much.
SPEAKER_01Um, but and is it it's it's positing and positive uplifting and all that sort of thing.
SPEAKER_02Yep, that's right. Yep, you know it. But yeah, so uh uh my dad, I he was in Christian radio my entire life, is in Christian radio, and my mom was a pastor, and a lot of what that brought up for me growing up was hey man, like you you don't really get to have negative emotions or weakness, and we're just gonna like put on a good face every Sunday. We're always at the church, which I loved honestly growing up. Um, but man, there are just some things that it picked up along the way, sadly, in church culture, which was totally unintentional for people um to project onto me. But by the time I was 14, 15, 16, I was uh like I uh what it was I I was dating around because I wanted a lot of affirmation. I had pretty low self-esteem, despite being uh growing up in a Christian home. Um, like would profess that I knew the love of God, but was not living like it and wasn't enjoying the love of God, wasn't enjoying being forgiven. I would sin and just question, like, question salvation. Like, if I wasn't doing that good at church this week, like, man, like, is God like mad at me? Like, am I gonna serve a punishment? Is he gonna serve me a punishment that I really do not want to mess with? He um, yeah, it was just kind of like, man, I'm walking on eggshells with the Lord, and it's all based on how well am I performing. A lot of sadly, a lot of the way that the church that I work, uh, the church that I grew up at worked was, man, if you did good works, you were favored and put in leadership and put on the pulpit. But the second you messed up, you were removed. And so everyone knew about it. Every everyone knew, like, man, Savannah's not leading worship anymore, Savannah's not preaching anymore.
SPEAKER_01Um, uh you did you actually have stuff like that you were like you were doing and that people caught you and they're like, nope, no more worship.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I have sadly a really I I can share this story because I feel like it would actually benefit people, but and it sounds so silly sharing it now, but I feel like this actually happens to people. So for me, I was uh like 15 or 14 or 15, and I'm supposed to go on this leadership conference. And so at the youth group, it's like, oh, the student leaders, like they are awesome, which is true, they were so awesome. Um, but you got to go to this conference in California and with the youth pastor, and it felt like you were for the back of lack of better words, you were like a teacher's pet. Like you um yeah, were just one of his favorites, but it felt awesome to be one of his favorites. Like he you'd get coffee with the youth pastor, you'd hang out with him.
SPEAKER_01Um and if you wanted affirmation, that would be like a drug for you.
SPEAKER_02Exactly, totally was a drug. I'm like, yo, where can I get all the affirmation from my authority? So um, yeah, but the thing was is that when you're being interviewed for the student leadership team to go on this conference, um, to go to this conference trip, it was like, hey, like we're gonna have you sign a like a covenant, which really they meant to say contract, of if it if you did two of any of these sins on this list, you're gonna be asked to step off, which you know, totally valid. It's like in theory, that sounds that sounds like a good idea. Um, but if there's no empowerment, if there's no understanding of the gospel, if there's no understanding of like, hey, you can do these things, but relationally there's nothing gonna change in between us.
Growing Up Under Perfect-Christian Pressure
SPEAKER_01Um I'm not saying it's a bad idea, yeah. But but can I ask the question? Is it a good idea?
SPEAKER_02I don't think it's a good one. I would say it's maybe not a bad idea totally, but it's I would say it's not a good one. If you're not you're not equipping your students to live holy lives, like I think it's kind of like the contract was placed on you, and it's like, hey, it's up to you. Like you're not getting any help in this area. Like if you're struggling with pornography, if you're sleeping around with your uh significant other, if you're drinking and partying, like it's kind of like keep it hidden. They they did not intentionally say this, they did not say this, but it felt like keep it hidden or what's the purpose?
SPEAKER_01What's the purpose? Because like they're supposed to be discipling you, they're supposed to be teaching you, right? Totally, yeah, and what they're teaching you there is like exactly what you said. If you want to go on this trip, you cannot confess to these things, yeah. Or else you're gonna be asked to not go on the trip. So you're gonna learn secrecy, secrecy, shame, shame, secrecy that all snowballs and keeps you in whatever sin that you're in rather than any confession that leads to renewal or something like that, right?
SPEAKER_02Yes, totally, I totally agree. So I sign it and I'm like, yeah, no problem. But then it's like, okay, I was just broken up with because I wouldn't uh sleep with this boyfriend. I was like 14 or 15, and I was like, well, I'm for sure gonna have revenge on this guy. And so then I go find this other guy, sleep with him, and then it's found out by the youth pastor somehow. I don't even know how this day. And so I get sit down at a meeting and I'm like, what is going on? Um, but again, it's like shame and secrecy are provoking me to put on a completely different face than what's actually going on. Like I had no awareness to say, hey, I need like help right now. Like I'm actually in this is so sad. I know, it's terrible. It's so sad.
SPEAKER_01This guy pressured you, and were you you were like, No, I want to live right. And then when he broke your heart, you're just like, I guess living right didn't do me any favors. Let me and you were mad at him?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's a great way to describe it. I feel like fear in the first relationship where it's broken up with, it's like fear of punishment. I was like, Well, I don't want to be punished by God, like I just know I'm not supposed to do this, but there is no revelation of man, do I actually like value myself? Like, do I understand why I don't sell short in that area? Does that does that make sense? Like, it's just kind of like no revelation of that. Just wanted to avoid uh being punished because of a rule, and then I was like, screw it, like moving on. Um, yeah, you can obviously tell it's like I yeah, didn't have a lot of understanding.
SPEAKER_00How who's telling the youth pastor this, man? The guy? Like, how many people knew about this?
SPEAKER_02Like, this is I think like four people. So, I mean, I could do some deductive reasoning, but it's it's it's yeah, it's very much for all of them. So they sit you down, so they sit me down, and around the same time, I think within the same month, like I had another friend who was supposed to go on the trip, and she was like, Hey, Savannah, I want to go party. Like, can you drive me? And so it's like, I'm driving her and these other girls, and we like they go party this weekend, but I didn't drink anything. So the only reason it's a key detail is because later I'm sitting in this meeting with this youth pastor, and like I'm looking at this contract, and I'm like, man, I should get kicked off the trip. But then he's like, Man, like Savannah, you technically only have one strike, like the second strike is only valid if you actually drink alcohol, which feels just like, man, just religion and Pharisees, it's like, you know what I mean? Like looking at the outside behavior of like, man, these behaviors are worth punishing or worth reprimanding. But like, if you just like go up to the line, like if you drive people to go drink and party, like no big deal, you know. Um, so that was a very, yeah, I feel like that whole situation. So I got to go on the leadership retreat, but it's like I am terrified of my right standing with other Christians with authority.
SPEAKER_01Um doesn't this feel so much like fear? Yes, totally. The reason why they the reason why, okay, so if you're a youth pastor or if you're leading people, yeah, your main job is to disciple and lead them, but there's this other thing that you have to keep in mind that maybe you shouldn't, and that is like you don't want to embarrass your youth group, you don't want to embarrass the church, you don't want to embarrass anybody, and so it's like, oh, what should we do? And the person who needs discipling, they're important, but maybe not not as important as like this other thing, and this other thing's really important, and so I don't want to throw leaders under the bus because I do believe it's very difficult, but you like there's people's like what they think about God, like all of this is on the line, and I think we move from fear, oh, what will they think? Rather than like some of this stuff takes a while to unpack and you have to learn it, and people are not skilled, especially when it comes to sexuality, we're not skilled in ministering to people who are dealing with unwanted sexual behavior, and there's a rampant amount of unwanted sexual behavior, and so that it just like I don't want to throw them under the bus, but I see the fear there that it's like, oh, we don't want to embarrass our group or we don't want to embarrass our church, and so oh, technically, yeah, that's what it feels like to me. You tell me if I'm wrong.
SPEAKER_02No, totally. It's just kind of like um, man, we're not trained as a church in the United States at large, like how to deal with sin. Like, people are all they're craving is to live a life not overrun by sin. And it says in the word how to do that, but we just don't have revelation or understanding of how, unless it's like the Lord reveals to you the gospel, which is what later happens um for me and my story. But yeah, it's so true. It's like, man, ill-equipped. This is why the Lord cares about shepherds and pastors so much. He really cares about um what they're doing, what they're articulating to their people that they oversee. Um, but yeah, so that totally, it's like that. When I reflect on that story, it's kind of like shame. Shame is something in my life I continually have to press against. I can't, uh, I don't desire to give in to the temptation of putting up a face towards something else when I'm not okay. Or, you know what I mean? It's just kind of like that is a breeding ground for habitual sin to happen, is shame of just like, yeah, I can put up, I can show you that I'm fine, but really all of this is going on and I feel too, it's too dark, it's too, I'm too broken. This is never gonna get fixed, so I'd prefer to hide it from you anyway. Um yeah, so that was just crazy. So um, do you mind if I continue? Did you have anything else you wanted to show?
SPEAKER_01I don't mind. I would love for you to continue.
SPEAKER_02Um, so I uh yeah, when I the next few years are marked by, man, I'm serving in my youth group. I'm doing my best to get affirmed, get loved um by my good works there. But then I'm also still dating. I'm actually having sex with uh like every single boyfriend that I had had um in high school. And it was just so challenging. Like it's this, I imagine many people who struggle with sexual sin or any sin, really. It's just like the cycle of man, temptation approaches, shows itself. You're saying, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I don't want that. And it's like all these boyfriends of mine profess that they're Christian. So it's like, what? We're just so confused. Why is this happening? Like, this is so weird. It should be weird, but it's also everyone's dealing with this. But temptation shows itself. You're saying, no, absolutely not, I don't want to do this. But then you press up to the line, and then some kind of line gets crossed, and then immediately guilt, shame, condemnation comes afterwards. And so it's like that was a cycle in my like life happening maybe on a weekly basis for five years. Um, and that was so challenging because like when you zoom out, what you see of my life is a girl that desires to fulfill the call of God on her life, desires to have intimacy with the Lord, um, desires to follow God with everything, but it feels like this one thing just can't get fixed. And you know, it when I talk with people who are struggling
The Leadership Contract And Hidden Sin
SPEAKER_02with habitual sin, they just feel like this is the defining marker of like, I can't fix this. I've tried it in all of my willpower. Um, I don't understand. No one in my life is living free. What the heck do I do? Um, and so fast forward to um me being 19 years old and I Did your folks know anything about this? Mm-mm. No, it was that was another like thing about shame. Or I shared with my mom once, I believe. And she uh was just like, oh my gosh, like don't don't tell anyone, like was her response, which was so hard. Um, or not, it was hard that she said that because of the revelation, like that shame was a very common thing in the culture of our family. Like, that's what that was revealing to me. Um, and it's like I shared with friends and they didn't really know what to do. But yeah, there's just not a lot of revelation of man, Savannah, because Jesus is your savor, savior, no matter what you do, you're clean before him and you're gonna be clean before us. We're gonna agree with what he says about you. So yeah, it was super, it was such a bummer. But it's like if I was if I could go back and do it again, I would share with my parents no hard no matter how hard that would have been. That would have been so challenging. But it's like the only way to overcome shame is to just walk in the opposite direction and say you're not gonna listen to it. Say that you're not gonna obey. You just have to decide I'm not gonna hide, I'm gonna walk in the light, um, and believe that people are gonna see me the way the Lord does.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So, yeah, for real. Um, yeah, I'm so great. I'm like, thank you, God. I'm so grateful. Um, so fast forward to being 19, I am at this retreat as a college student and I randomly open up to Hebrews 9. And it was literally such a fascinating experience. Hebrews 9, there, uh, I think it was verses 13 and 14, where it's like, if you who were uh what is it, if you if the ashes of a heifer, if if the sprinkling of water could wash your bodies, how much more shall the blood of Jesus purify you and cleanse you from your conscience, from your cleanse your conscience from dead works? And I, man, I say that out loud, and the average Christian has no idea what the heck the ashes of a heifer sprinkling of water. It's like, what does that even mean in Jewish context?
SPEAKER_01The Hebrews knew.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the Hebrews knew the Hebrews were like, yeah, I get this. Yeah, they're like, no problem. But I'm reading this as um a twice, like a 19-year-old in America who's never studied any Jewish context, but Holy Spirit shows me, like, just says to me, Savannah, you have been living in dead works. And I'm like, what? What does that mean? And then um, it totally it's like, oh my gosh, so is the Lord. But I like go to one of the leaders that's on that uh retreat, and she conveniently is like the only one that knows the gospel, knows how to articulate righteousness, knows how to articulate forgiveness and grace. And she's like, Yeah, Savannah, like dead works are when you are using this, it could be one definition, maybe it is what I would say. Um, dead works are when you are doing something good and you're expecting it to earn relationship with the Lord. And I just remember her saying that and literally a weight lifting off my shoulders and lifting off my neck. And I was like, oh my gosh, this has been sitting in my Bible this whole time. I'm so like, this is insane. Like, I didn't know this. Who who else doesn't know this? Like, I was so, so freed, so excited to um learn this in the Word. And so I returned to college at Bethel University in Minnesota that fall, and I am consuming teaching from teachers like uh Dan Moeller, if you've lost listened to him before.
SPEAKER_01I've heard a few from Dan. Yes, yeah, yeah. He's my favorite preacher of all time, probably.
SPEAKER_02Dude, he is amazing, he's so awesome. Um, and then another preacher named Peter Lewis, who's out of Dallas, Texas, and his whole ministry is committed to sharing the gospel to the church and to anyone, but articulating the gospel for the church. And I remember I was in an art studio. I studied graphic design at Bethel, and I was in an art studio at like 2 a.m. one night working on homework, and I'm listening to Peter Lewis, and he's talking about Jesus being our high priest. And I remember uh Peter articulating how Jesus ministers forgiveness to us of previous sin, present sin, future sin, how it's his wounds that he took on punishment, so we'll never be punished by God as long as he's Lord and Savior. Um and I tears are filling in my eyes. I'm being countered by the Lord and no one's around. And I just like I just remember that season, and I'm like, man, there are so many moments like that where I'm opening up my Bible and the gospel is being revealed to me, and temptation of like even temptation of pleasing other people and searching for affirmation. It's like I was finally encountering the love of God that I'd been desiring that whole time. I'd said it with my mouth for 19 years that I knew Jesus loved me, but it wasn't until I understood I was receiving revelation from the Lord about the gospel. Um, like, which is um I'm trying to even think of I think it's like Romans 5, where it says, uh, this is love that I don't know. I should just look it up. I have my Bible right here.
SPEAKER_01Romans 5.8, right?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Love was demonstrated in this way that while we were still spinners, God died for us.
SPEAKER_02Yes, come on, Richard. You're just a Bible on command. Um okay, next one. Just kidding.
SPEAKER_01How did how did you get put on to these these preachers? What were you just cruising YouTube or somebody told you about them?
SPEAKER_02So good. Um, I my church is connected with Dan Moeller, and so he comes and does conferences like once every few years. And uh so there are some people that connected me with him, but Peter Lewis, I don't remember how I stumbled upon him. He has a devotional called Keep the Blood Warm. Actually, this is what happened. It was a devotional called Keep the Blood Warm. It's just full of scriptures. You take communion twice a day and you meditate on a scripture relating to the cross. Um, and you do that for 30 days straight. And I did that in 2020 and it wrecked my or like in my the best way.
SPEAKER_01It wrecked me in the good way, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, exactly. Wrecked me in the good way. Um, and so I think that's how I had figured out who they were, and I was like, what in the world? Like, I'm just not hearing people talk about this. Like, I was just so stunned, I remember.
SPEAKER_01Um this is when all of us were going through it in in 2019, 2020, yeah, COVID happened, and and we're just like, Oh, Jesus is alive, and that means something more than I thought it did. And I I guess like I'm free.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, seriously, like that, yes, 2020. For many, it was like I'm struggling with anxiety and depression, but what I remember of that time was um spending a lot of time in the word, actually. Because I was so infatuated with the gospel, I was like, what is going on? This is so crazy. Um, yeah, so I feel like yeah, I just remember spending time with the Lord and I would like press play and listen to Dan Moeller. And if you've listened to him, he's like more of a preacher, he doesn't really teach, so or yeah, he preaches. As in, you're encouraged. He's like, This is what your life can look like. This is how you can spend time with the Lord. And um it's very meditative. Like you can be doing chores and like listening to him talk. His sermons can be like two hours long, and it's just full of stories.
SPEAKER_01Um, and so I would just I always say he has one sermon and he preaches it over and over again, but I love that sermon. So I want to hear it over and over again. Yeah, and oh, it's so good.
SPEAKER_02Yes, it's so good. And that season taught me how to enjoy the gospel and be humble before the gospel every time. Like, I there's so many, it's such a temptation to like turn on a sermon of his and I'm like, man, I've heard this story before. And then I just feel conviction of like, but I want have I received everything from the story though? Like, have I of him evangelizing or of him encountering the Lord? And I'm like, man, Lord, but do I experience that in my own life? Like, I don't want to say I know it or I've heard it until I'm seeing it in my own life. And I think that's what really marked that season for me and why I'm doing what I'm doing on social media now is because the Lord just taught me, man, it's time to not act like we know these things. Like it's a hindrance to receive if you say I know. Like I want to be receiving. It's like when you go to the word. If I've read a scripture a million times, it's like, no, but I want to say I don't know everything about it. Like, Lord, would you show me something new? Um, and the people with those attitudes, the Lord shows us, like, those are gonna be the people who receive something every time. Um, so yeah, man, I'm just trying to think of what else to share about that story. That kind of like kicked off a lot of it. I remember what I'll close the loop um on what was happening in high school. So um, yeah, the Lord asked me to stop being single or to stop being single. The Lord asked me to be single, um a good portion of college. And I remember um when I was gonna start dating again, I was interested in this guy and temptation showed up again. And so I'm like, I had spent like two years of essentially just receiving the gospel, um, learning about right standing with God, learning my identity, and temptation
The Cycle Of Temptation And Shame
SPEAKER_02showed itself up again in the same way it would have in high school. But I remember experiencing the empowerment to say no for the first time. And it was like, you I just reflect on who I was in high school. I would have paid any amount of money to say no. I would have done anything, I would have done any good Christian work to be able to say no to temptation. But here I am, uh at like age 21 or so, and I've paid nothing, but I've received everything from the Lord. I've received I've been meditating on his cross, meditating on how how powerful he made me through his cross, how free he's made me at his as his daughter, as a product of the cross. And then I'm finally able to say no and be like, oh my gosh, this sin, I'm not overrun by sin. I like I it was the first time I specifically with that sin that I had been overturned. And I was just so grateful. It's just kind of like, man, this needs to be the reality for so many other Christians. And I know the Lord is super zealous for that to happen. Obviously, Richard, this is like why you do what you do. Um you know, it's like you desire that story to be multiplied. Um man, and I just remember reflecting. I like the guy left, and I was like, first of all, why did I put myself like we're all growing, but it's like, why did I put myself in that situation anyway? Um, you know, being young.
SPEAKER_01Um well, because it feels good, and it was uh it like this is the thing. Our so much of how we operate is based on our past history, and so our mind offers us all of these things that we either clung on to in the past that we liked, and so we forget what happened and we move forward, and then we get into that situation, and our mind is saying the same things that it said before, and until you realize, oh, sin actually has no power over me. Well, like I am free, therefore I will not you know sin with my body. I'm gonna like it's called setting an intention or setting an intention, consecrating yourself. And in Romans 6, 12 through 14, it's it breaks down what consecration is when he says, Well, therefore, not therefore let sin not reign in your mortal body to make you obey its passions. Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who've been brought from death to life and your members to God as instruments for righteousness, for sin will have no dominion over you. It's like, okay, God, you have set me free. And you have to intend this. You can't like you have to consider it, you have to set your mind on the spirit. Because you have set me free, I will not move with this body uh in sin. Like this body is created for righteousness. Now, if you're not thinking like that and you're just letting life happen to you and you're letting all your thoughts run wild, and you're not sitting and actually meditating on truth, well, you'll fall again and you'll be like, Why? Well, it would be strange if you didn't fall, if your mind is set on the flesh, if you're moving in the old ways, it it would just be the old thing over again. And what what would you think? Oh, I'm not spiritual enough, I don't love God enough. But what's going on is you don't have a revelation, you don't understand how to set your mind.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's so good. Come on, I agree. Um, come on, I love that so much. Yeah, I feel like that that totally speaks to what was ex what was happening. I remember even spending time with the Lord immediately after and being like, Lord, this was not possible for me five years ago. Wow, what happened? And he I just remember a thought popping in my mind, and it's like, you received your righteousness from me. You were empowered to live a holy life, like you were empowered to not be overcome by sin. Um, and so yeah, I just remember loving learning about uh just like reading Romans 5 through 8 over and over and over and over again. Let's go and just talking about dead to sin, alive to God, like um reckon yourself dead to sin. Like, don't reckon yourself a sinner. Like, just so just all these things.
SPEAKER_01Was that hard for you at first, the not being a sinner thing?
SPEAKER_02Yes, I think you don't realize how engraved it is in church culture. Again, it's like super unintentional, it feels humble. Um, because you're like, oh, like God is so holy, therefore I'm a sinner, like I'll never be like God. But the reality is that scripture says that you are born of God, which means you got the same DNA as him when you're born again.
SPEAKER_01It says just as he is, so are we in this world. Yeah, and that's speaking of Jesus. Oh my god so like when I read that verse, I was like, oh shoot, so are we, we're like him. Yes, and so if God is holy and we're not holy, like he messed up somewhere because the reason we're holy is not because we did something, but because we're in Christ and Christ is set apart, yes, therefore we're set apart, and people can't, they're like, Well, you're not holy. Well, not in of myself, but I am not in of myself, I am united with Christ. Yes, so I have right standing with God. This isn't because I've done something, and and they they have a tough time with that because they're still holding on to well, you gotta do something, yeah. And so they miss they miss it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, come on, it's so true. The um, I know there's just like a lot of little arguments about whether to call yourself a sinner or not, and it's just kind of like, man, what's the motive? Like, what fruit are you edified? If you're edified after calling yourself a sinner, like I don't have a problem with you calling yourself a sinner then, like, but I just don't believe you that you're encouraged to be free from sin if you're calling yourself a sinner.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's the you know, Jesus taught us how to pray, and he compared the guy who was calling himself a sinner and and and he called that guy good, but we're missing the point. Like, that something happened after that. Jesus died, resurrected, we died with him, we were resurrected. We know we are no longer in the position of, oh, I need God to be a part of my life. We're united with him through his son. So, yeah, that guy, Jesus was speaking about the Pharisees who they they knew the scriptures because in them they thought there was life, but they were the ones you know speaking of him and they didn't even recognize him. So he's speaking to that issue, not oh, you should always consider yourself less than what God has done for you through Jesus.
SPEAKER_02Yes, come on. It's so fascinating as well. I feel like uh before I learned the gospel, I thought humility was unattainable. The only way to be humble is to say, God is God is holy, I'm a sinner. But man, the gospel produces humility in you. Like humility is agreeing with God with what he says about you and living that out. And so it's like when he's when he puts in me that I'm righteous and right in right standing with him, I'm not needing to promote myself around other people. There's not a need for competition. I'm valuing people in the way that God also sees them. Um and I'm desiring to serve them. And it's like that when you're caught up in your own selfishness and like blinded by your own sin when you don't understand righteousness, it's like you're there's man, the amount of self-promotion I should say in my life before receiving the gospel was rampant, obviously, in my story. You can hear that. And but in um, but now it's just like, man, I that was another thing. I'm just so surprised. Lord, you even crucified that. Like that's insane. Like even that part of selfishness, like you uh you're victorious over it, which you've equipped me to also be victorious over. It's crazy.
SPEAKER_01I I think true humility is much more difficult than what people are talking about because they think humility is calling yourself something he doesn't call you, but real humility is when, like, let's say you go out to this lavish dinner, like, and everyone's ordering the steaks, and it's like the bill comes out and it's wild, and the person you're with is like, no, I got all of it. You actually
Hebrews 9 And The End Of Dead Works
SPEAKER_01have to suck up some pride, yes, like you actually have to be like, because everything in the human is like, no, no, no, no, no, let me let me help out, let me let me do something, let me let me add something. True humility is to receive that, and I'm not talking about like selfishness, like, oh, we're we're we're making this tab go up, we're we're gonna buy all the appetizers. I'm talking about like actually, like you had nothing to do with what has happened. And and that's the thing is like we want humility, but we also want to have our works have something to do with this. And and now I'm gonna keep going here. In 1 Corinthians 1, Paul has this idea that it's because of God that we have all of these things, and it the purpose is so that no one may boast. Yes, like you are not sharing any glory with God on your freedom, on your victory, on your salvation. Like, he's not like this was a group effort, this was not a team project. Like, you've done nothing, and that's why that's why the humility is difficult because and and the people who are doing the oh, we should consider ourselves this because it's humble, are also wanting to share in the glory by having some of their works be something that attained some of this freedom, and it yes, it can't work.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's so good. I agree. Um, that just reminds me of like that. It's so it's such a clever tactic of the enemy to make a cycle like that where it's like you aspire for one thing, but because of your beliefs, you'll never attain it, which increases discouragement in you following God. Like, I feel like that's something with even with the I am a sinner debate or not debate of just like the act of calling yourself a sinner, but then you're like, wait, aren't don't you not want to be that though? Like, aren't you trying to be everything but a sinner? But the second I tell you you're not, you're like, no, but I am. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_01It's just like the weird it it makes complete sense. Yeah, especially in my background. In my background, there's this uh this this idea that um, and if if you're not an Adventist or have an Adventist background, you wouldn't know this, but there's this idea that there will be a group of people that will behave so perfectly that it will hasten Jesus' second coming, and they will be living so perfectly that um Jesus will come, but also, and this is a wild thing, Jesus is not going to mediate for humanity at a certain point, like he will not be in between us and God, and so we have to have perfect standing and live sinless lives at that point, or we're toast. And you talk to the people who believe this, and I'm like, okay, so have you attained that? And none of them can say they've attained it, but everyone's like, but we're going for this thing, yeah. And so then what do they do? They might start my majoring in minors, like uh health reform, clothing, uh, and then it becomes very works-based, all this stuff, but they don't realize they're in a loop that they can't get out of because they're they're in the center of their salvation, they're in the center of what and so um it's their behavior, and it will be it's a zero. It will never, it will never give life.
SPEAKER_02Man, just get out if you're in that, just get out of that hamster wheel, just decide right now. Today's your last day, yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01So you got this revelation, God is showing you how to steward your body and your heart. What happened after that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I feel like I was just on the next few years, it was just kind of like experiencing different seasons of life with the gospel. And that I don't know if that necessarily sounds kind of funny. It almost like felt like growing up in God. It's like, okay, so I've been um learning about my righteousness, learning how to be empowered by the Lord. But then as seasons are changing, it's tested again. It's just kind of like I think I was surprised. I was like, no, like I thought I learned this once, which is why I was sharing earlier. Like, no, the people that receive in every season or in every like they are the ones who are gonna experience the grace. Um, and I was kind of I was operating in some pride. I was like, no, can I just learn this once and be done and be fixed? And so I feel like the next few years, um, which kind of leads up to now, was marked a lot by learning, um learning to be okay in process. It's like, and it's different saying that. So I don't say that with the belief of, yeah, I'm a sinner, so I'll always be in process, but I say that with a background of a belief of I'm right with God and his healing for me is will always be done in partnership. He's not a snap of the finger, heal me kind of God, because he actually wants to teach us how we are empowered in our own healing journey to partner with him. He's not, he's not coming in, he's not like someone who repairs something in your house and doesn't really need you to be there to fix it and then leave. And then you come home, you're like, oh, it's fixed. Like he is, he's more of like a dad who teaches his son, hey, I'm gonna teach you how to fix this thing in your car engine, because you need to learn how to do this. Like, I really want to teach you. So it's actually incredibly compassionate. But yeah, I was just really stuck because of shame, bringing that up again. It's like shame was like, no, why aren't you fixed now? Like, I thought you found the solution. Like, didn't you figure out this is how you get free from sin? This is how you live a holy life. But the reality is, is um, the reality is that a life lived holy without God is just self-righteousness. It was really just this whole time is a is a crumbling of me operating in so much self-righteousness and turning that into loving to be dependent on God. Kind of like the prayer of what or you're kind of saying this earlier, Richard, of like in Psalms it says, My goodness is nothing apart from you. And you can say that with a smile on your face. Like, there are many Christians who are like, oh, my goodness is only from God. Like they're kind of discouraged because again, it's like it's pointing to a deeper belief of it's up to me to perform, it's up to me to provide the willpower, it's up to me and my ability. But to say, like, Lord, your goodness is my goodness. Like, I'm so grateful just to enjoy. Like, I don't have to produce goodness for God, for other Christians, for the lost. And I felt like that honestly, like, so much freedom came from that because in in a way, like, so much of our, I feel like, or else because like Americans, I feel like, or in the West, maybe our battles are in our minds with the Lord. And so it's just kind of like, or in with the enemy and accusation. And so just learning to say, like, God, I'm gonna not operate in pride right now, and I'm gonna say, I don't know what to do about this, or I don't know what to do about this thought pattern. Maybe it's not looking as extreme as like an uh an external uh habitual sin pattern, but it's like, man, I'm struggling with discouragement. I have a lot of hope deferred right now. I there are some dreams that have not come to pass, and I feel really frustrated and bitter. Um, and so just letting the Lord minister to me with through the gospel in that of like, man, is it up to me to cheer myself up for the Lord? Like, is it up to me? Um, it's like the gospel still still provided comfort and healing in in those situations, not for just not just for the sexual sin, not just for social media addiction, not just for binge eating, but um things you had all of those as well. No, uh social media addiction for sure.
SPEAKER_01Um, but that was making you depressed, probably.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, for sure. Um, yeah, I can share more about that a little later, sure, for sure. Excuse me. Um, but yeah, I felt like that, yeah, that season, honestly, it's just like that is so freeing to come to a place of like, Lord, I'm not I'm not in charge of my own sanctification. Like my job is to grow in trust with you and to put the gospel in front of my eyes and into my ears. And uh, I'm thinking of like in Romans 15 where it says, Um, faith comes by hearing and hearing comes by the word of God. It's like, so if you're on an increasing in faith, if you're on an increasing and trust in God of receiving the gospel, just put it in your eyes and your ears and say, I agree with that. Like, if that's different than what I'm currently thinking, if there's opposition right now, I'm choosing to agree with that. I'm gonna be done with what I was thinking. If the Bible says reckon myself dead to sin, I'm not gonna reckon myself a sinner anymore. Um, so yeah, just so much here.
SPEAKER_01Here's good news if you want to do something. Yeah, you're like, but I want to do something. Here's some good news for you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, come on.
SPEAKER_01Um, God is not going to think for you. While He has given you the mind of Christ, it is your job to now start to think differently. And that is like the name of the game in Christianity
Righteous Identity And Renewing The Mind
SPEAKER_01is to change the way we were thinking from when we were sold under sin and in the flesh to now that we're in the light. So he says to not be conformed to the world, but be transformed by the renewing of our mind. He said to set the mind on the spirit is life and peace, to set the mind on the flesh is death. And so all of these things are true. You have it all. Now you actually have to start thinking that way. And if you're like, well, how do I start thinking that way? You have to start observing when you're thinking the old way. Yes. Like if you don't know it's happening, so if you're saying, Oh, I've I'm depressed and I'm discouraged, well, what are you taking in? What are you letting into your life? If you're watching a whole bunch of garbage, if you're listening to my chemical romance nonstop, and I just picked them because I saw them on a thing. If you're just listening to like depressing dark things, it would be strange if you weren't depressed. Yes, it would be strange if you if you're like surrounding yourself with negativity for your mind to do something different than offer you negative thoughts. And so, yeah, your job is to think differently because of what you now know that is true in Christ. And you weren't even able to do this without Christ first giving you his mind, yes, and first changing your heart. And now that he has, if you really want to do something, set your intention every single day. Day, I am going to think in this way. I'm going to set my mind on the spirit. I'm going to, you know, whatever is lovely, whatever is pure, whatever's true, if there's any good in it, I'm going to set my mind on that. And then you'll notice that you you feel different after you think different. And then you'll notice that you think different after you feel different. And so it just kind of all works in concert together. And yet we're trying to break ourselves free out of something that he's already done.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Come on. Let's go. It's now you're hyping me up. Yeah, let's go. I'm keep preaching, Richard. Keep preaching. It's so good. It's a it's a gift that we just have to unwrap. Like it's not, but the unwrapping can look different than maybe what we thought it was. We thought it would be, I'm gonna go to Walmart, or I said Walmart. I do not shop at Walmart personally, but I go to Target, maybe I pick out the gift, I wrap it up for myself later, and then I'm not surprised when I see it. It's like that's not happening. Like the Lord has given you gift, the gift of righteousness, the gift of freedom. It's just your turn to unwrap it and enjoy it. I love the I love the picture you gave earlier of someone else buying this expensive dinner. It's so true. What's your response?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02It's like, are you gonna receive it? Are you just gonna like look at them and be like, I'm so grateful you gave me this? Like, thank you so much, and then move on. Like, that's what the Lord wants. He gets glory in that. He likes being generous.
SPEAKER_01The best meal I've ever had in my life, and it was a crazy expensive meal I didn't pay for, and the person was just like, I got you, I love you. And I was like, Thank you. And it was truly humbling. It was truly humbling, and it was it was amazing. But yeah, and so what is God growing in you as you continue? Like you decided to go all in on social media then.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yes, yeah, totally. So right now I'm doing something very similar to you, Richard, for women. Um, not specifically with porn, but anything, anything that people want to talk about with sin patterns. Um, I love helping Christians move from a life of man, I'm I'm in bondage. I think God's disappointed in me. Nothing that I produce is worthy of what he wants out of me. Changing out those mindsets and moving into man, like I like being right with God. I didn't know I could enjoy spending time with God like this. I didn't know I could enjoy reading my Bible like this. Um, I didn't know I could enjoy being a Christian like this. And all of the hinge point of those, of that transformation is the gospel, is understanding grace, is understanding righteousness. Um, and it's so fun. I imagine you get such uh get similar like encouragement and enjoyment in doing this because it's your story being multiplied. You're just like, man, I was that, and seeing transformation before your eyes. It's like I'm not saying the coolest new method or way for you to get free in your own power, but I'm just preaching you the same scripture that ruined me six years ago or seven years ago. Um, and now it's happening to you. Like I'm so grateful I get to be a part of this process. It's crazy. Um, but yeah, so I love I love wrestling. I think, Richard, you're sharing, um, you're talking about how you need to set your intention to believe something different. You need to start agreeing that the work is finished. You need to start agreeing, put the gospel in front of your eyes. And I think a key is like letting the gospel oppose you and telling, I wish I knew to do this, letting the gospel oppose you and being like, man, I actually don't believe that I'm not a sinner. I actually don't believe that I'm righteous. Confessing that to the Lord and being like, would you prove me different? Show me differently. Like, I I remember I think that was also uh in that season of three years of growing up in the Lord, of like, I was sensing that the Lord was highlighting me, like, Savannah, I want you to uh really study and really learn the gospel in order to have your story multiplied in many people. And I was just like, the trials were coming up and life was just getting hard. And I was like, Lord, if this is actually true, I'm gonna need you to convince me. Like, I don't want to just because shame had just been a part of my story. It's like I don't want one life on the outside when people are looking and one life on the inside in my mind. Like, I want to be fully convinced. Um, and the Lord just loves to do that, He just isn't really intimidated by unfaithfulness. If you look at the story of Israel in the entire Old Testament, it's like He's not intimidated by unfaithfulness. He's like He's made a covenant where he shows up for both parties. Like he um he's gonna just give you what you need in order to understand and receive. And it's yeah, it's just insane. I'm so sorry I opened up that can of worms. I don't even know where I was going with that.
SPEAKER_01No, that's that's beautiful. Um to set your mind on that thing. It's very important to know what you believe, but it's as equal as important to know what you don't believe. So if you don't believe these things and you're like, God, show me what I'm not believing. Like when the Holy Spirit reveals that thing, like I call it limiting beliefs. Like someone last night on the call was they were like, Why do I procrastinate? And I was like, How am I gonna answer this question? And I was like, um, and this is what I came up with you don't believe you can do it. Like I this person was really good at this other thing. I'm like, if someone said, Hey, come do this thing that you're really good at, would you wait? Would you procrastinate? No, you just go do it. You procrastinate on this other stuff because you don't believe you can do it. Like, and because you don't believe you can do it, it's tension to get that started because you don't want to fail. So you actually have to understand, oh, I don't believe I can do this thing. Yes, and then realize, oh, I'm I'm just believing a thought that my mind is offering me that you can't do it. Once you start it, you can do it like God, like there, like you can just go and you can just do it. But you there's lies that you believe from your past, stored in there, and then you're stuck. But God is just like, hey, just go for it. And and this is the thing in my faith background, we think that God has like this one plan for your life, just one thing. And like oh yeah, and oh, you messed up in high school, plan over. Oh, you messed up in college, it's over. Oh, you got a divorce, it's over. Oh, you got this, it's over. And God's just like, Wait, what? Like, I love you, you're my child. Go do stuff, I'll bless it. I love you. Like, that's who he is. There's no plan A, B, C, D. It's I love you, and I want you to move in my love and be salt and light wherever you go. Yes, and I'm going to bless that because I love you. And if we knew that, we wouldn't be tripping about when we like all of our mistakes could be us learning rather than us spiraling down into shame.
SPEAKER_03Come on.
SPEAKER_01And and so then we could actually grow. And it it hurts sometimes, and that's okay because and it God disciplines us, and that's okay. But that means like we're growing. If he's not disciplining you, you're not growing. And so, like, if you have this right mindset, like God loves me and I haven't messed it up, he's still going to, he's still gonna be with me, and I'm gonna live forever, so I might as well learn these things. Then then we're talking, but guilt, condemnation, and shame, calling ourselves a sinner, trying to get right with God, who's uh we've already been right with him because of what Jesus has done. We're gonna spin our wheels and it's gonna be sad. So tell me about um your what you do and how you help people with this uh this program that you have.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, for sure. So um right now I mainly am doing one-on-one coaching, but I'm gonna start a group um in September, end of September. And um, yeah, right now for one-on-one coaching, uh, I offer courses and then we essentially hash out hey, what did you oppose? What opposed truth when you were listening to this? I'm essentially preaching the gospel to students, and they're like, Yeah, I don't believe that I'm righteous. It's just so oh my gosh, it's crazy. Sorry, I'll finish and then I'll share testimony. But um, so yeah, just learning. Even um, I walk the first course that I do, I walk through Hebrews 9 and 10 talking about the old way of sacrificing, the old way as in the Jewish way of sacrifice of the sacrificial system. And then how it was a foreshadow for us in the new covenant with Jesus as our high priest, as our lamb, as the sacrifice. What does his blood do? What is it? What do all of those things actually do? Um, and why does it matter for us today? Why, and so it's just painted in that picture as a parallel. And so I love showing that people are hungry for the word and understanding. They're like, wait, this was in my Bible the whole time. Not only was it in my New Testament, but it's also in my old testament that the Lord, um, I forget where it says in the New Testament, but I feel like Paul said, or I know it's said somewhere, but I feel like it was Paul that said, if the law could have, if the law could have been perfect and produced righteousness in us, the Lord would have done it by the law, but he had to send Jesus. He had to do, he had to be the person.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's like that's Galatians three, I think. Yeah, we wouldn't need Jesus if the law could have done that, right?
SPEAKER_02Exactly. Yeah. And it's like, if there could have been a way for us to do it in our own strength, like he would have let us do that. But he's like, no, we can't do it that way. We need Jesus, and it's a better plan. I'm so grateful. It's a better plan that he chose. And um, so we go through that, and then a few other courses are talking about man, what does it look like to enjoy God's love? Um, I love teaching Christians, it sounds so funny, but I love teaching Christians how to enjoy God's love because it's something we profess with our mouth. But so many would sadly say that they don't experience the love of God. They're not enjoying the love of God as a son or daughter with a healthy father. And so I love teaching people how to meditate on the scripture. And just like you had said in Romans 5.8 earlier, um, love is demonstrated in this, and it's pointing to the cross. So
Coaching Others And A New Way Forward
SPEAKER_02if you want, if you're like, man, I Savannah like talked about that and I want to know more, just turn to any scripture talking about the cross and ask the Lord, why did you do this? Why did why did you do this? Like, why did you go through this pain? And it's humbling, like Richard's story of um, it's humbling like Richard's story of the random person or the guy paying for your expensive dinner. It's humbling. The Lord paid a great price, but it's because he loved you, he wanted a relationship with you, and you don't have to hide from that strong truth. You can let that truth consume you, and it's gonna produce in you someone who's really happy, really joyful, really full of peace, really connected with God. Um, and so that's just like I think that's just a truth that is so simple, but the Lord uses the simple things to shame the wise, like he's gonna use something that feels just a little like a little too elementary theology for me, a little too elementary, like man, can you like God died for you while you were opposed to him?
SPEAKER_01Yes, like Romans 5.8 is so simple. Yes, yes, it's so simple, and it yet is so crazy. Romans 5 1 says that now that we have been justified, we have peace with God. And I was trying to convince somebody that he had peace with God. So I said, Read Romans 5.1. He read it, and I was like, Do you have peace with God? And he was like, I don't know. I'm like, read it again, and it says, Therefore, we've been justified, we have peace with God. And I said, So do you have peace with God? I don't know. And the third time I was like, bro, read it. And then he didn't even it didn't register because his thoughts, his mind was just saying all this other stuff. I'm like, it says you have peace with God. Oh yes, oh, and so like our life lived and the thoughts that torment us have taken over what Jesus has actually done, but like we don't have to let that happen.
SPEAKER_02Yes, come on, come on.
SPEAKER_01So as we wrap up, let me ask you this question where okay, let's go back 15, 14-year-old, yeah, like girl sitting there after the meeting with the youth pastors. If you got to put your arm around her and you get to minister to her, how would you minister to this young lady who just is wanting to be loved, wanting to be seen?
SPEAKER_02Yes, totally. I think I teach myself how to receive forgiveness from God. So essentially, all of my good works were trying to atone for my bad ones. And so I would have saved myself so many years of good Christian performance, trying to, yeah, jumping through hoops, doing whatever. If I just had learned like asking the Lord in a like a one-on-one setting or in prayer, like, Lord, am I forgiven for my sin that I did? And having the thought come into my mind, which is the Lord's voice, of yes, like you are forgiven. Lord, how do you see me? Like, I brought this sin to you, Lord. How do you see me even though this sin happened? And hearing him say, holy, blameless, above reproach, like Colossus 1. Like, I'm not above reproach means God has chosen. It's a fancy way of saying, God has chosen to never be disappointed in you.
SPEAKER_03Wow.
SPEAKER_02Above disappointment. Isn't that amazing? It's like, if I had, like, I would just, yeah, my goodness, minister forgiveness and just be like, this does not have to define you as long as you choose to reject shame.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_02You can't, you can't let shame have the final word over your life. You have to press forward and walk in the opposite way.
SPEAKER_01And and this is like we need to pound this into young people's heads because everything else, the world is pounding all this other stuff into their head. And yes, you know what? That sweet young Savannah, she might not have received it on the first one. But if you keep hammering it in, like, no, God's not disappointed in you, there will be some freedom there. Come on.
SPEAKER_02So it's so true. Let's go.
SPEAKER_01Hey, thank you so much for sharing uh parts of your story. Um, you're a blessing to us and a testimony. And so I appreciate you.
SPEAKER_02Wow, thanks for turning. Yeah, such a share.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely.