Greg has an interesting story to tell about Leadership. He has written the book The Leader - The Mortar That Defines The Leader and is in the process of writing two more books on leadership. His view on the difference between Leadership. Management and Command is intriguing and well worth a listen.
Thanks for listening. Follow me on LinkedIn or check out my website.
Do you have a leader you would like me to interview? Email me at craig@craigbulmer.com.au
Greg has an interesting story to tell about Leadership. He has written the book The Leader - The Mortar That Defines The Leader and is in the process of writing two more books on leadership. His view on the difference between Leadership. Management and Command is intriguing and well worth a listen.
Thanks for listening. Follow me on LinkedIn or check out my website.
Do you have a leader you would like me to interview? Email me at craig@craigbulmer.com.au
Welcome to leadership unlocked and interview style podcast, providing insights on how to lead people proudly brought to you by human interactions, Australia. Welcome to leadership unlocked. Uh, today we've got Greg Nevin, uh, joining us. He's a, an author he's meant a book called the leader, the mortar that defines the defines the leader. And he's writing a few more books I believe as well. So welcome a lot, Greg. Great to
Speaker 2:Have you here. Thank you, Craig. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:That's okay. No problems at all. So, uh, we do this all the time. You get a chance to pitch. Uh, so I guess you're gonna pitch the books, right?
Speaker 2:Definitely. Am.
Speaker 1:I'll try my best. Go for it. Tell us a little bit about you as an author.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Thanks, Craig. Uh, look, uh, I guess maybe just go into how I got to this point is I sort of, uh, in uni started doing a bit on leadership and I started reading some of those, um, scholarly articles and I thought, well, reckon I can have a crack at this. So I started doing one and actually did about a page or two and I thought, uh, let's have a little bit more of a go. And I sort of wanted to quote my myself in my own text. I thought that would be quite cool. Why not? It ended up being about 12 to 14 pages and I thought this could be become more. I ended up getting to about 50 pages and I said, said to myself, what more could I do with this? And I guess it just continued to evolve from there. And then I started looking on the internet and talking to people about what it is to write a book, how many words needs to be in a book. So it was quite a bit of an evolution there, but from my perspective, um, it's becoming a series now, I guess this is my first book. Um, and then I'm looking to write about four books on leadership and different styles of leadership. And I guess each book sort of develops as it, uh, as I start to learn and take on more in my life. But yeah, I guess, you know, uh, work full time Monday to Friday, but also on the weekend I spent a bit of time writing some books. Sure. A bit about me. And
Speaker 1:So tell me, what were you studying at uni?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I did, um, a, um, I should know this, a degree in, um, business
Speaker 1:Management. Okay. Right. And so, and it's there where you got this kind of, I guess, use of a word passion for leadership.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it was just before that actually I, I did a leadership and management, um, program or a diploma and I actually didn't know the difference between leadership and management. I was like, it's the same thing. Right. And I think there's that MIS nom that a lot of people think, well, it's, it's the same thing. And I guess I did that and, and learned a lot, a lot more about that and then went into my, um, degree and then started to really put those P together and really understand the delineation between the two mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Right. And so then you just let's write a book cuz that's easy.<laugh> start with two pages. And what is the deal these days? How many page, how many words do you have to have to write a book?
Speaker 2:Uh, this one was a hundred thousand words and then it dropped down bit and then it went up and down, but it sat around a hundred thousand words, but it's 264, 260
Speaker 1:Pages, 264 pages. Yep. And I guess probably the, the, the next question is what is, what's the next in line? Are you prepared to tell us what the next three books are? Yeah,
Speaker 2:Definitely. I, you know, know, I'd love to talk about that. I guess look, if I just summarize this book really simply this book is called the leader. It's about leadership and what I see in leadership and, you know, it took a lot of, uh, experience from a lot of books that I've read, uh, play, read, you know, two, 300 books, um, in my short lifetime and, and took a lot of that and tried to wrap it up into a guess a more common sense approach. Um, and there's a lot of books on leadership. So, you know, I'm not gonna say I'm not the only one who's done that, but I think it's a different perspective. Yeah. My second book is actually on risk taking, but not just saying take risks, but also looking at, um, you know, what is it is to take a risk and then what's the benefit of that. And their book is actually called the knife's edge because there is a certain level of success and far, and you sort of sit on a knife edge sometimes when you take a big risk, big reward,
Speaker 1:Sometimes low risk, small rewards. So sure there's that. And then the third book is actually called the way through originally the way out, but it sounded a bit melodramatic. So I went to the way through, which is really overcoming life's challenges and how you take a spin, I guess, you know, look at the difference between, I always like to say, you know, I over win, I, or I learn, you know, you can say I win or lose, but if you take something out of what you've, when you've made a mistake or you've failed, then you take that as an opportunity to learn and, and take it to the next step. So I sort of take that positive approach and put into this book called the way through mm-hmm<affirmative>. And then my final book in this series is called, um, rise, which is sort of encompassing all of those books together and putting it into a summary. So it's a little bit easier to digest in one go instead of the three. Sure, sure. So, in your, in your, um, perspective, what, what is the difference between leadership and management? Cause that's a, it's an age old question. Uh it's um, you know, people come up with all sorts of different definitions, I guess, but where are you at with that one?
Speaker 2:And you're right. I could say something and so go Nana, that's not how it is, but you know, that's why it is a subjective sort of point. Um, you know, I look at it actually in, in three ways. So I sort of through all the reading I've done, I've looked at, you know, management leadership, and there's also another thing called command. So if you take a very simple approach, I see management as the laws, the guideline, the framework that you operate within leadership is the influence and really the desire and passion to get there. And command is actually the legal authority of position. So I guess it's a quite a military version, but command is really the legal, um, the legal position to be in a place. And that doesn't necessarily mean you're a leader. It just means that you have a positional title and the same in the commercial industry. So you might be, say a vice president. Sure. But are you really a leader? So I sort of try to break it into three zones, which is management leadership and command. Interesting
Speaker 1:Because you, I know that you just got into the reserve, the army reserves is that right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Pointed on the 23rd of August, 2021 and I'm away next year. So for me, this is something I wanna do all my life. Yeah. Um, sort of different opportunities came up, would stop me going full time. And, and now this is sort of the, uh, the compromise with my wife and that's a big part of leadership I guess, is compromise in finding the right balance. Sure,
Speaker 1:Sure. So, uh, so that's the army reserve is that's right. Isn't it definitely. And, uh, and so you start your training. I think
Speaker 2:March, I think 25th of March can right. Interest.
Speaker 1:And is that out of VB out of Victoria barracks? Is that where you do that out of
Speaker 2:Oh, at a kapuka
Speaker 1:Yeah. And how long
Speaker 2:Are you away for? Uh, five weeks. Wow. Yes. So, no, I think full time is three months. So like again, that's that compromise with my wife and daughter that five weeks is just enough to be away from home.<laugh> yeah,
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly. That's a, that's gonna be an interesting, that's a, a bit of an eye opener too, I'd imagine. So, well, I
Speaker 2:Think a part of the army reserve hers is for me, and this might be a part of leadership or just life in general. I sort of looked to the end of my life and said, if I were to look back, what would I regret? Because, you know, I guess, you know, this might sound melodramatic again, but if you're looking on your death bed, you know, you don't wanna look back and look at all the things that you've missed out on as opportunities. So for me, this is something I sort of negotiated with my wife to say, I've always wanted to do it and something, I don't wanna look back and say, what if or why didn't I try? Yeah. So I always try to look back and say, okay, what is something in my life that may actually become an regret? And if I link that to my values, you know, for key values in my life, which I, um, say is strength, determine service and awareness. And if I maybe break that down and a strength is sort of passion and, and not just about physical strength, but the passion in my life, um, determination is really getting through things and life is not always peachy, but it's a roller coaster. That's a good and the bad. So the determination is the ability to, to push through the bad times. Service is really to my family and, and a country. You know, I think I have a debt tooo for how lucky I am in my life and, and where I am and living in the Shire, I might say is a pretty good bonus to be as well. A lot of people out there be like, are these shy guys?<laugh>, that's what it is. Um, and then, um, awareness for me is being aware of myself, you know, um, I know I talk too much sometimes, or I might do of this or might do that. So awareness is really about sort of keeping yourself in check, but also, you know, knowing who you are in, in the world and being happy with who you are as well.
Speaker 1:So when you wrote this book, the leader, you said before, you're in a, a nine to five job, um, uh, how is this reflected in your role at work?
Speaker 2:Yeah, really good. Actually. Um, when I first released the book professionally, it's sort of opened a lot of dialogue with a lot of people in my business. Um, globally actually there's a lot of, you know, discussion and it's a bit of a talking piece, which I always thought would come becoming an off author and sort of talking to people in the business. They'd, they'd, you know, peak their curiosity and quite interesting when I first rolled it out, a lot of people actually reached out to me and said, Hey, can we actually plug you in this? Or can we say that, you know, you actually wrote a book on leadership so that we can tell other people and, and within the business, quite a few people have reached out to me just to go, Hey, you wrote a book on leadership, so you must know something about it. Sure. Can I have a chat with you about what you think I should do for my next role or this or that, so that a lot of, um, trainees or graduates within our business actually reach out to me and ask me, you know, what do I think of them and where do I think they could go with their skillset? So for me, it's, it's given me an opportunity to do some more development with people. I love that. I love helping people, people and make them better. I think it's a two way street. If you think that when you give to someone that they get everything, it's, it doesn't work that way you learn as you, as you do. Yeah. I think even sometimes you, you know, the old saying fake it, fake it to make it fake it yeah. Is sometimes you've just gotta take some confidence, try something and, and you'll find your way in the end if you've got enough determination to get to of that end point. So I think this book was really a great opportunity professionally to sort of gimme some, uh, I guess some tickets on my shoulder. Yeah. But it also meant the people were gonna come to me and challenge those, the that's right. My expertise. So it was really good opportunity. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And, and I'm curious about the army reserve, because I show you in the context of what you've just said about command leadership and management. Is there a part of the army reserve that you're attracted to specifically, like, is it leadership or is it this idea of command? I've been fortunate as you know, I was introduced to you by a friend of mine who's in the army and has been for some time. And I've, I've been lucky enough to be at VB for, uh, a few wine tasting events. And I've met some of the, um, some of the wow old majors and yeah. And it's an intriguing, uh, culture that sits in there, but there is this element of command still is, even though they've retired, don't say the wrong thing while he's sitting at the table with them definitely is really important. Right. So definitely. Is there an attraction to the command aspect and that's why that comes out in your vernacular or is it still leadership? And I know that's challenging, but no, it's
Speaker 2:A, it's a really good point. Actually. I've always, when I was younger, I always wanted to become a captain in the army and a captain sort of middle of the range. I don't wanna offend anyone, but that's really the middle of the range. And for me, I've never really thought about going beyond the, that I always thought they wanted to be somewhat close enough to the, the team and, and close enough to the tools, you know, physically on the ground. Yeah. But not too high up. I like being on the floor and engaged and, and part of something. Sure. Um, so I guess there is a certain level of the command that I like the idea of, you know, being there and, and, you know, coordinating a large scale program or, you know, team, but also being close enough to the team on the ground that I can actually physically still be involved and not just in influence, cuz I think at a command level or should I say take a step back at a leadership level. It's very much influence based. Yeah. Whereas at a command level, it's very much, you know, you have a legal designation and you tell someone what to do and they do it. Yeah. Generally, generally I'd say maybe not in the commercial world as much, but definitely in the army, certainly in
Speaker 1:The army they do.<laugh> absolutely. You're sitting there, Craig. Okay. I'm sitting there. Thank you.
Speaker 2:Correct. But I think you, you, you bang on, you know, even retired guys that I talk to when I find out they are in the army, I have a very high respect for these guys and, and generally I call'em sir. Sometimes these guys say to me, you know, my name's such and such don't call me that, but sure. I always try to extend that, uh, level of respect. And I think that comes from the command, but also you can sort of tell from someone quite quickly who they are, you know, first impressions generally have a pretty good, I guess, fix on people. Sometimes they change and you don't get someone. Right? Sure. Um, but I think when you talk to someone you can sort of understand, are they, do they have leadership qualities? So if you talk to someone who's in a position of command yeah. You'll understand pretty quickly if they're just a commander and a manager or if they're a commander and they've got the leadership and you can see how people into racked around them, which is to your point about some of these guys that are retired. Some people probably still call'em boss, which is a term I've heard a lot of people say, if you call someone boss, it's because you highly respect them as compared to serve sometimes interesting, different demographics.
Speaker 1:Interesting. I know. Um, I was lucky enough to meet, uh, mark betta from channel seven, uh, shall yeah. Channel seven, cuz he's just joined the reserves about a year and a half ago, two years ago. So he a similar to you, similar story had been wanting to do it all his life and finally got a chance to do it and yeah, he's in the reserves now as well. He's loving it. He's really enjoying it. So can't wait. Yeah. So I'm sure you'll come across mark at some point a lovely guy. Lovely guy. So talk to me about the book more and some of the, some of the key things for you, when you, when you think about this book, the 264 pages, what are some of the key things that you think leaders should be aware of if they want to be leaders and not just managers?
Speaker 2:Definitely. Um, I think, you know, one of the, the biggest ones is to be the greatest representation of yourself even when no one is what. So maybe I'll say that again is to be the best version of yourself even when no one is watching. So
Speaker 1:What, sorry, I'm gonna interrupt. The only reason I of course go for it. I could easily mock that course because it's used over and over again. It's it's overstate that, that statement. Right. And so what does that mean? Really? What does it really mean? Be the best station of yourself? Cause we screw up at times. Oh yeah. In front of people and behind closed doors. So what does that really mean? Do
Speaker 2:You think, I think it's also on the point where you say people screw up is actually taking ownership. Uh, and a big part of leadership is ownership. You know, uh, if someone's in a position of management or something like that, they might, you know, it was this or yeah, I run outta time. And so therefore this, or, you know, there's all these excuses, but if you just take ownership, people actually go, thanks. I understand that you've realized what you've done wrong, move on. Yeah. But when you start creating all these, uh, excuses and things, that's when you start to go down that rabbit hole. And I think a part of that is, um, you know, the way I actually see it in my head is if no one's around and the lights go green, then you go across. Yeah. But if the lights are red and no one's around, would you just drive through those red lights and definitely it's overused. And I think, yeah, you're looking like maybe I would maybe
Speaker 1:Not. I'm a push by<laugh> it's Sunday morning at six o'clock and there's nothing around no speed cameras
Speaker 2:Like
Speaker 1:That in the car. No, on a push bike. I do. That's
Speaker 2:A different story maybe, but I think, I think it's key item because even when you think no one is watching, there might be someone watching. And I think that's the key moment you might look around and think, well, the way in which I'm talking to this team member, it's just a one-on-one and no one else is gonna realize. Yeah. But when that person talks to other people and then that other individual talks to someone else, they start to form a picture of, Hey, maybe this person's different one-on-one as compared to they are in a nice public forum. So that's sort of what I'm trying to get to. Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's an interesting one. And this is not about me, this part cars, but one of the things that actually came to mind before interviewing today was, uh, I remember when I was in a leadership role or a senior role, I was heading up the similar industry. Actually I was working for ups. Oh there you. And uh, and I was the call center manager there and uh, and was really intrigued. We'd go out socially on Thursday night drinks over the Sheridan and, uh, ma got there and people, there was one or two people that said to me, Craig, why are you so nice when we're out socially? But you're a pain in the backside essentially. And I couldn't get that, that medium. I couldn't get that. I guess the true person that I, I had this one hat in the, in the office and one hat out and they were, they were misaligned. Yeah. Um, and so it's an intriguing space to be in it. Right. Is how do you, and again, a word that's overused. How do you become authentic to you and your values as a leader, as a manager, as a commander, I guess, right. That's
Speaker 2:A, sorry. Yeah, go. I was gonna say the, that is actually a really cool point and it's actually something I think of in, in, and it's in my book actually not, uh, product place, but, um, when I first started as a manager, um, I was appointed as a manager in a, in a, uh, I would say medium size business, quite young. I think I was 19 years old and I took on a team of about 20, 30 people, um, dangerous goods operation and all the guys were in their forties, fifties, sixties. And I was their boss overnight. Um, we had a lot of turnover and my MD said, you're it make it happen? And he flew back to Queensland. I was like, okay, uh, let's have a go. Yeah. Why not? Yeah. And I remember before that we were like all colleagues, we got up for drinks, you know, do all that social thing. And then the next, next day I changed my mindset and became their boss. And it was really challenging. There was a lot of friction because I said, well, as a manager, this is how I must now act, cause I've seen it in the past. So this is how I believe I have to be. And, and that, as you said, that balance very, very hard. It was a, it was a very challenging five years for me, especially
Speaker 1:With older or, you know, just, I don't mean older people, but that age difference yeah. Who feel like they've got a lot more experience and uh, yeah. Maybe even, um, more, they might be more wise about decisions, but I think they've also got a bit slacker as well in, in some of the stuff they do as well. So, um, yeah, that's, that's a tough one.
Speaker 2:I think, um, what I learned, you know, you don't just do it overnight. I, it took me quite a bit of time, but I learned you gotta take people along for the journey and you've gotta actually leverage their experience and, and their personality because when you bring'em part of the journey and you actually ask them, Hey, would this work? They own the process. So they become a, a part owner of a process. So in my now job, and what I do will do for the rest of my life is when I wanna roll something out and I've gotta hand it over to someone, I'm make sure they're part of that journey. So they own it. So when it gets to a point where someone challenges the concept or whatever it might be, yeah. They actually step in and defend it and say, no, no, no, no, we've gone through this. This is how it's gonna work. And you can sort of step back and go, wow, this is really good. But to get to that point, you gotta bring'em along for the journey. You've gotta leverage their experience and actually ask them that question. It goes back to your authenticity as a manager or leader, you don't know all the answers, you gotta sort of work your way. Sure. It, but that's why you're gonna refer these people who have that expertise.
Speaker 1:I, I, I remember years ago, uh, delivering train the trainer programs and, and there was a piece of material that was, um, you wear the head of a trainer, you wear the head of a facilitator and you wear the head of a, I think it was a director almost. And I'm sensing that right now that as a leader in inverted com, pardon me, you, you do have to be a commander at times. And at times you have to be a leader and other times you do have to manage it. I, I'm not sure that it is to single, uh, roles per se. I think they actually blend, or you, you, you move up and down in each of these areas. What, what's your
Speaker 2:Thoughts on that? And definitely, and it comes back to that, that dichotomy, as you mentioned before, about the personal compared to the, the profession, I know I've had environments where I've had a team and they've seen me at the social side and they go, who are you? Yeah, yeah. And I think it's that flexible leadership and management and end is you might be in a position of authority by, you know, by the company or by a legal authority, but then sometimes you've gotta draw the line and follow those guidelines of management. But then other times when maybe the troops or the people in the team are really, you know, aren't snowed under, or there's a lot of pressure, you've gotta sort of pull that passion out again and, and rise above the, the challenges that made be, and put on that positive attitude and sort of bring them through even, yeah. Sometimes you need to sort of draw from all those sources. It isn't one set area. Yeah. But you do see, and even in my industry, you see some people that sit in those channels and they're robots and they don't get what they need, but people who sort of have the ability to jump across the three channels. Yeah. Have a lot more opportunity to be flexible. There
Speaker 1:Is that, that saying, and I think we've said it in a podcast before, but that, you know, most people don't leave a business, they leave a manager or they leave a leader. That's the main reason why they leave. Wow. It is. Uh,<laugh>, I'm not sure if you can hear this on the, on the recording, but it it's absolutely throwing down rain outside right now. It's crazy times. Tell us more about some of the key things in your book for you. What, what are some of the things that you really like about this book as far as, uh, content that that would be helpful for leaders that are listening? Yeah,
Speaker 2:Definitely. Um, look, it takes a lot of just standard life experiences on, you know, you can read some books from the commandos and some guys that have been through some huge things in their lives. For me, I haven't had, I wouldn't say the most drastic events happen in my life. So I can't say I was under fire and, you know, jumping outta helicopters and things like that maybe later on in life. Yeah. But right now I think I just take a common sense approach to things that probably talk quite transferable, other people, you know, promotions and taking on a manager's position. Um, you know, some things outside of work and your social life, but nothing really hugely drastic. So I've been very fortunate touch wood that life's been pretty good to me. Yeah. And I think my book just takes a very common sense approach to a pretty, I don't wanna say an average life that's makes me feel quite, uh, mundane, but quite an average sort of balanced life I've had. Yeah. I had to make decisions that have sort of changed my trajectory in my life substantially. Um, but I think throughout my book, I sort of explore how I came to those decisions. So, you know, what is it? 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 years later, I sort of look back and I went through a memory or a moment in my life. And I said, why did I make that decision? So when I used to live down shell Harbor, I had it good. And then I moved a hundred kilometers away to Sydney and, you know, changed my life, uprooted everything. Um, and I just sort of go through the thought process of why I got to that point and what I got out of it and what I look back and change things. No. Um, and I guess that's what I go through in the book. So just a very common sense approach and yeah, just, I think it's quite relatable to other people. And what have
Speaker 1:You, what have you noticed yourself around leadership through probably one of the toughest eras that I've ever experienced, um, is as COVID mm-hmm<affirmative>, um, I notice some leaders really stepped up, uh, and became incredibly empathic or empathetic of their staff. Uh, what have you noticed in that space?
Speaker 2:I think so I've got a, a saying here that I wanna sort of say, and this is probably representative of this, but I like this saying by, um, Doug Hammus gold, which is if you want your garden to flourish, don't reserve a plot for weeds. And I think that comes down to positivity. Um, like I mentioned before, life has its ups and downs and, and C's been a great example of a lot of downs, but also on the back of that, there's a lot of goods to, um, being selfish myself. I got to see my daughter grow up, so I got to see other things. I think it's that positive side. Um, it's hard if you're losing your job and things like that. Yeah. But we live in a pretty good country and I don't wanna go into the POL political side, but we live in a pretty good country that it's not been super, super bad as compared to maybe overseas. And I think perspective is important. And I think, um, for leadership, it's about not reserving a plot for weeds in your life, you know, try and focus on the positives in your life. Because if you start to focus on those negatives, that plot of weeds starts to grow out mm. In the world. There's so much to look at. That's bad, you know, there's so many bad things that happen everywhere. Yeah. Even in Australia, but I guess it's the, uh, old serenity prayer, you know, really focus on the things that you can control, control and try and yeah. Understand the bad things are out there, but try your best to control what you can within your own life. That's probably my biggest point is, is positivity. And, you know, I sort of got heavy into Tony Robbins and, um, uh, quite a few of the, the motivational speakers. Sure. Energizers. Yeah. And I found that, you know, that was their core message is to really focus on the good in your life, understand the bad, you know, hope for the best prepare for the worst sometimes. Yeah. But I think the big thing is positivity. Get him through. COVID required a lot of positivity. That's
Speaker 1:Actually, that's funny, you mentioned Tony, cuz Tony has a similar saying to that, which is, um, it's no point being positive if you're looking at your garden and, and there's all weeds in it and he close your eyes and he says, there are no weeds. There are no Wes. No, we, you open your eyes, but there's still bloody weeds. It's like get of the weeds like as, as he's analogy on it. So it's not just about being positive per se. It's like, you still have to action stuff. You still have to do stuff to get rid of those weeds or, or not reserve a section for weeds. Right. So, um, if you were, if you were mentoring somebody yep. That was coming through a young leader, 27, 28, you know, we're probably learn from our own mistakes. Mm-hmm uh, authenticity being one for me or being aligned. Well, what would be some, two or three tips that you would give given you a new leader coming through the ranks, a rank<laugh> sorry. Yeah, no pun on the army. I, I
Speaker 2:Get the point<laugh> um, I think, uh, a big one is knowing your values. So probably a lot of people don't know what their values are, you know, they don't, they don't necessarily, they might sorry. They might in intently know, but I think an important thing and again, product placement, I put in my book, there's some exercises there to actually go through and write down what your values are. So, you know, what, what do they represent in your life? Because your core is your values and you probably bestowed them by your parents. You probably just don't know and you're just living by them. So I think it's really good to take stock and write down your values and understand what they are and how they cause they guide your life. Oh, there we go. Through this fun, ambitious activity, lifelong learning, real relationships and clever conversations go, there you go. There you go. So, and, and that's a key point. I think people find out their values too late in life. Same as myself. I, you know, started to learn my values maybe 10 years after I probably should have had'em very clearly up for'em. Um, also knowing your value proposition. So what are you good at? Um, you know, people sort of go into a role because, ah, it's a good position. Why is it a good position? It might be great for someone else, but not, might not be great for yourself. And I see a lot of people, even myself, I went into role going, this role is gonna be great and I got into it and it wasn't what I wanted because it, maybe it was to two hands off. Yeah. And are sort of just sort of sitting there, looking at things happen. And I thought, this is not, this is not who I am. So I think your value proposition and your values as a person is key. Yeah. And goals. I'm, I'm huge on goal setting, smart, met TC, all these sort of, um, goal setting programs. But knowing what you want is something thing. Most people don't write down. So what do you want in 12 months? What do you want in five years? What do you want in 10 years? What do you want when you retire? Maybe that's too far, but your vision, it may be blurry, but you gotta understand where you want to be because that guides your life and talked to, I have actually talked to quite a few people about this and I've met toward quite a few people through the ranks in multiple businesses. Um, and these are, I've got more, but the three, I guess is, this is what I try to focus on is where do you wanna be in 20 years? Because some people go, ah, well I want this and I go is what you're doing now. Fueling that maybe financially. Yeah. Great. And then you can do something outside, so different avenues, but sometimes someone's in a role. They go, yeah. But in five years I'll be happy. Why don't you try to be happy now and find what's gonna make you happy now mm-hmm<affirmative> so that, that's probably a key one. The, the key three key points, I'd say it's, it's
Speaker 1:Interesting because I think there is, it's an awful thing to say, I guess, but I think greed does guide us sometime because we see a role and it's this amount of money and it's more money than what this role laws and we get attracted by the dollar and we try and look at this role as best as we can to move forward. Yep. And think it's a, a step up in it maybe and the money, but I think you've gotta look at it. You're right. And how does this, um, uh, help me progress to those goals or those things that I want to aim for in the next two years, five years is 10 years. Mm. 15 years. It is kind of writing a eulogy and working backwards. Isn't it a little bit.
Speaker 2:Definitely. And I think to your point is looking at those roles and saying, it's worth this amount of money. Is that money going to get you what you want outside of li uh, outside of work, maybe, you know, you've gotta sort of weigh up all these things. It's not just about the dollars, it's about what it gives you. But I think the other thing to consider is the more you get, the more you spend. And I found that as I've gone up, I've always gone. Why have I got less money? Or I've got the same money as I've always had, because you can buy different things. You can say, I need a new car because that car is the one
Speaker 1:That, that car's a$10,000 more expensive car than what you would've bought last time. Right. Or 15,000 car. It's a been like through COVID people's bank accounts rose because they couldn't spend it and they couldn't go anyways. Like, how come I've got this cash? Yeah. It's like, this is good. Yeah. So, you know, COVID had, did have a, a, well, still has a benefit, I guess, in some, some respect, although Amazon got a workout in our house. Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Everybody like that one really. Well,
Speaker 1:Amazon got a, a massive workout. What are you, what are you hoping to share with the world with these four books?
Speaker 2:Mm that's a really good question. Uh, look, I think I want people to learn and, and I, I guess being selfish, I'd love people to come to me and say, Hey, like that's actually helped me become a better person or, you know, I've referenced you and I've taken a bit of what you've explained and I've put it with someone else and someone else and someone else, but it's come together to make me a better person. Yeah. I don't think someone's gonna read my book specifically and become a, a cult follower. I, I'm not as good as Tony Robbins. I, I would say, but, and that's not my core focus in life. It's a large focus in my life, but you know, I have multiple strands in my life. So I guess from my perspective, I just want people, if they read it and hear me and talk to me to get something out of that interaction, because you know, a big thing I say leadership is it's over being serviced. So, you know, I think sometimes people think if I'm a leader, I sort of sit there and people carry me around. And you know, you see those nice pictures where it shows you a leader is at the front of the pack, pulling everyone with them. Mm-hmm<affirmative> and that's the way I like to see myself. I, you know, I take ownership of a lot of things. I do a lot of things. And generally I try to be at the forefront of what I do and be the best that I can. Don't step on people to get higher. And that's the principle I teach my daughter and I'm sure my next children. Yeah. Who knows how many, but my big focus is compete, but never compete to the point where you pull someone else down. Yeah. Compete to be the best version of yourself. Yeah. Um, but never pull anyone else down. And that's the big part. I want to teach people in life. If you want a better position and you want to go higher, that's great. But make sure you bring people along for the journey with you. Yeah. Because if you start to push people down, it's a negative sort of leadership
Speaker 1:Style. Yeah. I, I remember my first boss used to say baller, drag, greasy guts down here.<laugh> and it was like, it was an interesting leadership style. Yeah. But I remember it, it was since, and that's 40, 40 years down the track. Yeah. Uh, but you know what, there was a part of that was, I was not second guessing anything. I knew I'd done something wrong. Mm-hmm<affirmative> and I knew where I was at. And he'd just tell me what it was at and where it was at or what was wrong and you'd move on and you'd learn from it. And so Whil Peter people wouldn't say that's the greatest method. Geez. It worked. Cause I think it was authentic. It was him. Yep. He didn't essentially BS. He didn't, you know, beat around the Bush and he knew exactly what I was. Okay. It might have been more commando and the command style or commando command style, but yeah, I don't, I don't think it had a negative effect on the all. Yeah. I don't think it did. Maybe I took that into my roles.
Speaker 2:I think that, you know, that's a really cool point too, because leadership is, has to be flexible cuz everyone's different. Yeah. We live in different worlds. We have different languages. We have different interpretations. You know what I think?
Speaker 1:Belief systems, well,
Speaker 2:Exactly different metric and um, the old, what is it? The metric and the trying to remember the old system, we've got the metric system and
Speaker 1:The oh the Imperial system, the Imperial system, sorry,
Speaker 2:Showing my age<laugh> but you know, we have different interpretations across the board. So like that, who was a straight shooter might not work for some other people cause they might go, Hey, this is too much so that every single leader and every single book has a different interpretation. That's why there's millions of books on communication, leadership. Same as raising a child. I thought there must be one central book for how to raise a child. Oh, there's millions.<laugh>
Speaker 1:That's not. Yeah, don't go there. And if you don't read a book, there'll be plenty of people to tell you how to raise a job. So don't worry about that.
Speaker 2:Exactly. It doesn't matter. You've got experts everywhere.<laugh>
Speaker 1:Exactly right. So mate, thank you for your time. Um, well done on writing this book, thank you very much. And, and writing the, the others and, and also giving up your, your time to come down and have a chat. Um, it's the first one with been able to do face to face for a while because of COVID. So it's nice that you're in the, in the Shire. Yeah. I hope it go as well for you. And I had that. People do get what you want out of it, which is, you know, get some learnings or it's changed the way they think about something. Um, it's where is it available? Where are we saying this is available? The
Speaker 2:Book, uh, physically, I've got many copies sitting in my basement available to go, but there is copy is on Amazon Booktopia fish pond, all the main outlets,
Speaker 1:All those. And so it's, it's available as a, um, is it available as audio or just,
Speaker 2:No, it is it's. Oh, no. Sorry. It's not audio it's um, Kindle or ebook as well as, um, a physical copy. Yep. Probably audio Booker. It's been something I've wanted to do. I just haven't had the opportunity to put it in yet.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's that's a long, I've got another client who's done that. That's a long process. Is it? Oh yeah. I've done very long process mate. Thanks again for your time. Really appreciate it. And I hope that, uh, our audience, today's got a, a little bit extra about, uh, what it, what it takes to be a leader. But I think what, for me, what you've added is that, that other dimension about command, I think that's a really reading space because I think we might be leaders mm-hmm<affirmative> but we're actually operating out of a command mentality. And I think if we don't get that right. Yeah. I think you're gonna lose staff and staff will go, go elsewhere. So well done. Thanks very much. Appreciate
Speaker 2:It. Thanks Craig. Thanks for time.
Speaker 3:The.