#224: Men, Mental Health and the Silent Crisis - Chloe Smellink

I welcome back Chloe Smellink, psychotherapist-in-training, for a deep dive into men’s mental health, the stigma surrounding therapy, the troubling rise of MAiD (Medical Assistance in Dying) in Canada, and the broader societal issues affecting mental well-being. 

Chapters

00:00 – Welcome Back, Chloe

05:00 – How Men Approach Mental Health

12:00 – The Cost of Avoiding Difficult Conversations

20:00 – The Silent Crisis: Why Men Feel Helpless

30:00 – Medical Assistance in Dying (MAiD) in Canada: Are We Giving Up Too Easily?

45:00 – The White Male Epidemic: Why Are They Overrepresented in MAiD?

55:00 – Breaking the Cycle: Solutions for Men’s Mental Health

1:10:00 – Closing Thoughts & Resources

Links: https://client.alli.io/therapists/Chloe_Smellink/

Transcript

Christopher Balkaran (00:00.64)
Welcome to Open Minds, folks. Christopher Balkorin here. Chloe, welcome back to the podcast. I'm so excited to have you back. We have so much to talk about. Maid, mental health, men's mental health. First of all, how are you? How's the year treating you so far?

Chloe Smellink (00:16.666)
Good, good. I just actually started my practicum experience. So I am right now an intern psychotherapist with Ally Therapy. So it's a wonderful platform. I love what they stand for. And so far the clients, humans have been fabulous.

Christopher Balkaran (00:26.286)
Nice.

Christopher Balkaran (00:36.718)
And for those that don't know what is psychotherapy, how does that differ from other types of therapy?

Chloe Smellink (00:43.866)
So for psychotherapy, it looks more at who you are wholly as a person and it's not just, to me it's not just helping with your mental health. Like say if a career aspect is impacting how you're feeling on a daily basis, then that's the part that we can delve into for your life. Like it doesn't just have to stick to your anxiety, your depression, like it can be other factors of life where we work together. It's more of like a holistic approach I find.

Christopher Balkaran (01:11.81)
Nice.

Chloe Smellink (01:14.286)
Yeah, yeah, I've I mean, yeah, I enjoy psychotherapists as a client better as well than counselors. That's a personal opinion, but.

Christopher Balkaran (01:19.502)
Yeah, yeah.

feel like you have to, in a way, deal with the whole person because dealing with just their career issues, for example, is like, it's piecemeal. It's not talking about the other aspects of their life that might be out of whack.

Chloe Smellink (01:36.608)
Yeah, yeah, and it's not where, because I find too the approaches that we might use, and again, everyone's different as well. Every psychotherapist is going to do it differently. For myself at least. I don't need an overview from.

Christopher Balkaran (01:44.024)
Yeah.

Chloe Smellink (01:55.148)
when you were first born up until now what happened with your parents, grant, unless that matters to the topic that you're wanting to heal and become better with. Sure, otherwise, yeah, we don't have to go through all of that bullshit.

Christopher Balkaran (01:57.058)
Yeah.

Christopher Balkaran (02:03.342)
Yeah.

Christopher Balkaran (02:10.986)
Yeah. Definitely. It's so interesting you mentioned that because I mentioned to you this at work. Someone mentioned to me, this is wild. you know, I work in a pod, there's three other women and this one woman said, yeah, like she was talking to her husband and she was like, you know, you gave me your...

the two kids, that's fine, like you don't need, we don't need to hang out all the time, you don't need to be around, like you can go away and do your own thing. And I thought to myself, that is quite the statement to make to your partner. And is that revealing like some deeper underlying issue that's not being addressed?

Chloe Smellink (02:51.649)
Yes.

Chloe Smellink (02:59.32)
I think the way and I can say that my brother and sister-in-law attended to it can be seen as an issue for some people if it works, it works. Do what works for you. mean, if I was the partner of this particular woman, I would not feel so great. But my sister-in-law and brother honestly tackled this in a very beautiful way because I do believe that

Christopher Balkaran (03:21.838)
Yeah.

Chloe Smellink (03:29.366)
how our parents, at least mimicked for myself, for many people that I know is the ones at home. if one's completely at home and the one's completely at work, then either don't have a factor in each other's way, whereas that's not true. Because

say from my sister-in-law's perspective, she sat there and she's like, so your job starts when the clock starts, say at the company, whatever it is, and ends at that time. She goes, but my job's supposed to run around 24 seven with the kids, with the home, with everything. Where it's just, she saw it more as both of their responsibility and having that both of their, how their relationship is with each other, how their relationships each are with their kids.

Christopher Balkaran (04:08.398)
Right.

Chloe Smellink (04:21.476)
does have an impact, does affect. And she just appreciated, she'd rather have him more at home and having a part within the home life than to have it completely separate and possibly take in less money, not have as many whatever material things, which again, is not the standard for a lot of people right now, I find.

Christopher Balkaran (04:38.657)
Yeah.

Christopher Balkaran (04:49.529)
Yeah.

Chloe Smellink (04:50.128)
particularly from the woman's point, it's expected to get a lot more out of it, which again, each to your own.

Christopher Balkaran (04:53.88)
Yeah.

Christopher Balkaran (04:58.519)
Hmm.

Why do you think that, first of all, is number one? That's a big question. But I'd love to know from you and your experience, how do men deal with their mental health or do they? And what have you seen really work for men in these situations?

Chloe Smellink (05:24.976)
So for men with mental health, because men and women, no matter what it is, the end of the day, we are structured differently. We're structured by our bodies differently, by our hormones, by our brains, and how we perceive and receive the world. So for men, if there's a problem, they want a solution.

They don't want to have to go through all the little nitty-gritty stuff. They're like, this is the problem. How can we fix it? Whereas women want to work through it. They like to see the different perspectives because we also, we're meant to nurture and protect the kids. So we're going to take in what are all the possibilities of danger? Whereas a man's just like, this is the situation. That's the danger. That's the solution.

Christopher Balkaran (05:52.162)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Christopher Balkaran (06:07.118)
Mm-hmm.

Christopher Balkaran (06:17.386)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Chloe Smellink (06:18.704)
So I find it's not they don't so far what I found they don't care necessarily for such a long process. The and I'm to put in quotes problems that they're coming with aren't aren't necessarily the same as how a woman's going to come in and what they might want to fix as one of their problems. A lot of times it's a it's a very

not very small, but it's like a very particular subject and thing that they've zoomed in on it. They're like, this isn't working. I've noticed this. How the hell do I fix it?

Christopher Balkaran (06:58.158)
You know, Chloe, that's a really, you know, interesting perspective. And one I think most people don't know enough about when it comes to men and you look at the stats and it's like suicide rates, depression rates and untreated anxiety, untreated stress, untreated depression. It's it's so stark male to female. What do you think?

Chloe Smellink (07:20.026)
Mm-hmm.

Chloe Smellink (07:24.472)
And it's the so far to the the males have all stated that they were very nervous to come to therapy. Like they were nervous or they were anxious. They weren't sure about it. I find that it's less from the females compared to the males. I just personally felt bad. I was like, what are we? What are we nervous about guy? Like we're here. We're here for a good fit. Like you're doing a good thing.

we're here together as a good thing. Like this isn't a negative. But to me, yeah, it's, it's, what is this woman going to think of me now? That's, that's what I get from it. And that's what I have heard from men from whenever I worked at a vintage store, from just interacting with random people on the street at the park, whenever I take the dog, it's

Christopher Balkaran (08:05.101)
Wow.

Christopher Balkaran (08:19.448)
Mm-hmm.

Chloe Smellink (08:21.418)
Men have gotten to a point that they're scared of even if they say a compliment that it could be taken in the wrong way. If they don't, they any kind of move is just where it's like, is this okay? Is this not going to be okay?

Christopher Balkaran (08:29.419)
yeah. That's me. 100%.

Chloe Smellink (08:42.0)
And even then, you know, constant alert in such a sense whenever human interaction should be comfortable, especially if you're coming from such a place of of genuine to me, love of just human connection. It's it I.

Christopher Balkaran (08:55.746)
Yeah.

Chloe Smellink (09:01.808)
I just I'm like, ladies, what is this reaction for? Like, and if you can't separate if you had something happen to you, that was not so lovely done by a man, that is for you to work on and not to put that on every other man that you interact with. Because you're only causing more negative to happen that any positive changes.

Christopher Balkaran (09:06.382)
Hmm.

Christopher Balkaran (09:19.736)
Yeah.

Christopher Balkaran (09:26.478)
And for men and women, know, you go out, I'll take a personal example, you know, you go to, say, over a month, you go to four or five bars, clubs, whatever, and at every single one, you have three or four negative interactions or rejections. It's like those are one-offs and they should be treated as one-offs, but it doesn't take much inside our minds as humans to develop patterns, even if they are one-offs.

even if it's a minuscule amount of times, to then start saying, well, if this is the dating pool, then I'm writing off dating altogether based on a handful of experiences over a 30-day period.

Chloe Smellink (10:08.654)
Yeah, and that's where I find too. that's from both men and women's perspectives. The give up is really easy. Just to get a date, the give up is really easy that I'm just like, okay, but once you're in a relationship, you do realize that effort and energy and like, there's gonna be rough times throughout that. So it's just...

Christopher Balkaran (10:16.534)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Christopher Balkaran (10:33.079)
Yeah.

Chloe Smellink (10:34.402)
If you're not willing to continue to put in the efforts, even just to find someone, I would want to see what you're like in a relationship whenever shit hits the fan. Because it's your partner is going to have things that they pick out with you, just like you're going to have things with your partner. And it's not to take it so personally. It's to take it as that's what their reality is of what's going on right now. There could be some justification in it.

Christopher Balkaran (10:40.046)
Yeah.

Christopher Balkaran (10:44.768)
Right.

Christopher Balkaran (10:52.3)
Mm-hmm.

Chloe Smellink (11:03.502)
the most that you can do or the best thing that you can do is listen, reflect, and then respond instead of just as the person's going off, you're already waiting for that response. It's like you're not really listening or caring about what this person has to say or offer. So it's, yeah.

Christopher Balkaran (11:22.336)
Yeah. And it's this idea that we want, you know, we're addicted to that happiness, like emotive sensation. And we want things to go a very specific way. We want people to react in a very specific way. And then, you know, our egos do come in and sometimes they're like, well, you never supported me and you were always critical and you always did this and that that always statement.

Chloe Smellink (11:39.333)
Mm-hmm.

Christopher Balkaran (11:50.988)
really creeps in very quickly when even before shit hits the fan, find like it's the slow water drip piece, you know, it's like the moment something challenges you, you go back to that. Well, you always were critical of me and what I do kind of thing.

Chloe Smellink (11:58.64)
you.

Chloe Smellink (12:07.244)
Yeah, and I find to it's I just had it. The communication. Yeah, communication between people. It's where instead of as that slow drip is happening to state something then people will wait until the buckets full and then explode. And it's just like, well, did you really give your person a chance? Or did you wait for it to build up build up build up build up?

Christopher Balkaran (12:13.454)
Christopher Balkaran (12:25.656)
Yeah.

Christopher Balkaran (12:31.8)
Mm-hmm.

Chloe Smellink (12:37.09)
until it became a real issue. it's just like, one, why would you do that to yourself? And why are you doing that to that other person when the reality is, each of those slow drips, they didn't know that that was impacting you in that way. So having explosion is just what the fuck moment.

Christopher Balkaran (12:50.604)
Mm-hmm.

Christopher Balkaran (12:57.414)
Yeah. For a lot of people, they struggle with that courage of having those initial conversations because they don't want to be perceived in a certain way. They don't want to lose that happiness and motive feeling with that person. They don't want to make it awkward. you know, a lot of us are people pleasers as well. How do you summon that courage for that, you know, the first time it happens? know, here's something.

You know, being single, I've actually been on the front lines watching other people in relationships. And I've been able to kind of see what I consider healthy behaviors and unhealthy behaviors. And one thing I've noticed is the way a partner talks to their partner in front of myself and others is really indicative of some underlying issue. And

Chloe Smellink (13:28.515)
Okay.

Christopher Balkaran (13:50.582)
I often want to tell my friends to be like, I wouldn't let my girlfriend or partner talk to me like that in front of other people, let alone behind enclosed doors. But I sense there's this courage of not wanting to ruffle feathers, not rock no boats. Let me just sweep it under the rug. they're just going through something. It's not indicative of who they are. How does somebody navigate those first moments where they should be really speaking up for themselves?

Chloe Smellink (14:21.038)
I think it's evaluating what are the things that you personally, individually want. specifically because we're talking about relationships, what values do you want within a relationship? What expectations do you have of yourself? Because a lot of the times too, all of us are looking at what do we want from another person?

Whereas it honestly first begins as what can I offer to another person instead of what can the world offer to me? It's like one, scrap that because now you're, you are expecting some sort of fulfillment outside of yourself from these other people, which to me will end up causing problems in the relationship because you're not looking inwards just to stay fulfilled.

Christopher Balkaran (15:07.459)
Mm-hmm.

Christopher Balkaran (15:11.693)
Yeah.

Chloe Smellink (15:12.016)
It's first looking at yourself. It's like do I have the things to offer to actually receive what I'm wanting? If I don't let me first work on that and it's also as you're communicating How would you want something said to you? If you were doing the thing that's that your partner's doing that's bothering you, how would you want to communicate it to you?

Christopher Balkaran (15:18.816)
Mm-hmm.

Christopher Balkaran (15:28.182)
Yes.

Chloe Smellink (15:35.044)
communicate in that way and it also allows you to see if you and your partner if you guys receive each other's communication styles whether they're the same or different but that you receive it in the right ways because You should know it your partner at the end of the day just wants the best intentions from this relationship So if your reaction to especially whenever it's stated in a calm and Open kind of like compassionate way

Christopher Balkaran (15:53.698)
Mm-hmm.

Christopher Balkaran (16:03.437)
Mm-hmm.

Chloe Smellink (16:03.748)
There's no reason for person to react in such a heightened way, vice versa, because I've seen the same where, and to me again, it's more from women than men, where the talk down.

Christopher Balkaran (16:13.827)
Hmm.

Christopher Balkaran (16:17.454)
Yeah.

Chloe Smellink (16:18.18)
it's like a talk down. It's not where it's it's even an even playing field. It's like they're talking down to the person of like, how could you do that? Like, what the fuck? Who does this kind of it's just Yeah, and it's a very awkward time for anyone around. Definitely want to see what it's like behind closed doors. Because I'm like, No, no, if it's this bad in public. I don't want to see what you guys call each other behind closed doors.

Christopher Balkaran (16:34.752)
Yup.

Christopher Balkaran (16:44.686)
You're totally right. feel like there's also a lot of considerations men give for women in particular, because when you look at some of the stats, like I was reading the stats because I go down these rabbit holes for my podcast, but like, you know, in Japan, suicide rates are very high in Japan and

Japanese men are not selected by Japanese women. And so already there's a power imbalance I find if a man internalizes that and says, man, I'm lucky to be in a relationship, period. So I'm going to subvert myself to this person because I'm lucky to be here. And I feel like

Chloe Smellink (17:19.075)
Mm-hmm.

Christopher Balkaran (17:38.4)
another person picks up on that and they can go two ways. They can be like, listen, man, like we're equals or they can be like, ha ha ha, I got you. And I'm going to make you feel like that more often than not.

Chloe Smellink (17:51.504)
Right. And yeah, and then with that power dynamic, because it's where that's where men and women are similar, we all get a high off some sort of power thriving thing of Yeah, and to me, I mean, I could see that coming from the women for sure there. I haven't delved into any research with it. But 100 % Yeah, I could see where

Christopher Balkaran (17:58.999)
Yeah.

Christopher Balkaran (18:07.981)
Yeah.

Chloe Smellink (18:14.838)
Yeah, the guys would go, okay, I'm actually I'm in a relationship. Let's make sure that we're good in this. But it, in my mind, it just brings up the fear again with then how fit like men and women both can abuse one another. The way that abuse done to men is portrayed out in society statistically all sorts of ways is just bullshit compared to how

Christopher Balkaran (18:20.493)
Yeah.

Chloe Smellink (18:43.478)
we make sure to truly display and portray anything harmful done to women. Which is just one of the weirdest things to me. Like they've gone to the UK now where domestic violence against men, if you as a man are in a relationship, your partner is domestically violent, you report it, your stats going under domestic violence against women, not men.

Christopher Balkaran (19:11.394)
Wow.

Chloe Smellink (19:12.9)
So it's where like, I want to know what the domestic violence rate is like, say in Japan, because of that inequality of, of relationship findings, men to women. Yeah, I'd yeah, that's where especially whenever it starts coming down to that, where there is more women to men, so women have more of the power of who they want to choose, which is beautiful. I mean, we all do have a choice. But I'd want to see how they review other things happening specifically to men.

Christopher Balkaran (19:16.227)
Yeah.

Christopher Balkaran (19:33.614)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Christopher Balkaran (19:42.84)
And that's where I think the fallacy of reporting statistics comes in because men are less likely, I remember reading this, men are less likely to report anxiety, stress, depression, that they have a problem. And so it's under-reported. And so if it's under-reported, then it makes you wonder, then what are the stats for anxiety, stress, depression, if we understand that it's under-reported for men? Is it?

Chloe Smellink (19:58.169)
Mm-hmm.

Christopher Balkaran (20:10.498)
five times higher than what's reported ten times higher like if that's the case then there truly is an epidemic happening

Chloe Smellink (20:18.096)
Yeah, and it's, and I mean, yeah, looking at the addiction and suicide rates, the fact that it is way higher percentage of men within those two categories. And then you go on to say, within the justice system, imprisonment, it's mainly men that are in there. And you can't

Christopher Balkaran (20:24.62)
Yeah.

Chloe Smellink (20:42.864)
To me, a justification for that isn't at all that men are like, that you've got more testosterone so you know, like you can be more violent or there's more, no, that to me, because it's such a wide variety of crimes. Well, in jail for that it's just like, majority of them aren't in there for violent physical crimes.

Christopher Balkaran (20:50.414)
Yeah.

Christopher Balkaran (20:57.55)
Yeah, yeah Yeah

Chloe Smellink (21:08.1)
And that's the part too that I don't think people realize, which completely understandable because the way that media portrays us is that violent, horrific things are happening all the time. It's just your bank account is going to be swiped clean way before you're going to be attacked by whatever, like whatever physical thing. So it's just, I get people's reactions, but it's, it's

Christopher Balkaran (21:17.496)
Yeah.

Christopher Balkaran (21:22.638)
Yeah.

Christopher Balkaran (21:28.376)
Whatever.

Christopher Balkaran (21:31.832)
Very interesting.

Chloe Smellink (21:35.776)
I, my hope is that people slowly start to sift through the media, social media, whatever kind of way that they're taking in their information of what should be researched a little bit further into for themselves if there's an interest and what kind of stuff is literally displayed to continue a certain narrative. And it's bullshit.

Christopher Balkaran (21:59.284)
Speaking of certain narrative, our government, our media here in Canada is not talking about medical assistance in dying. You've seen my posts, been covering this for over a year now. It is something that I don't understand why we're not as a country talking about this. If Maid were a cause of death, it would be fifth or sixth.

leading cause of death in Canada. And we only introduced Maid in 2017. It is truly like, the numbers are so astronomical and why, like, just why aren't we talking about this, you know?

Chloe Smellink (22:47.02)
It'll shine a light on on.

I think it'll shine a light and kind of give off more realizations to people for one truly what made his year four in the back and like what I think, like, mean, what I personally think it was, it was put up and put through. because to me, if you were a medical professional, especially within the mental health spec,

Christopher Balkaran (23:07.182)
Yeah.

Chloe Smellink (23:17.494)
you are taught that your job is to do anything and everything to ensure that someone does not kill themselves. If I personally don't do a risk and safety assessment on a client that is clearly presenting that they are a risk or a safety cause for themselves or others around them, and I didn't do my job, I am held liable for that. So that part really just I'm like,

Christopher Balkaran (23:24.43)
Mm-hmm.

Chloe Smellink (23:46.562)
what humans within the mental health world signed up to be one of these, because it's two people, two health professionals that you go through.

Christopher Balkaran (23:55.084)
Yes.

Chloe Smellink (23:58.722)
what evil are you? like, just, to me, it's just pure evil because it's where through so many different varieties, modalities, approaches within therapy, psychos, all the different kinds, there are so many ways to approach someone going through such pain mentally to, that wants to commit suicide to get them out of that.

Christopher Balkaran (24:25.07)
100 % and I know some people in the comments Will say that you know, my grandfather was in his 80s. He had terminal cancer He was in so much pain and made was this human humane way of ending his life You know He was able to come home to his home that he built and you know He was able to be surrounded by his family and he died peacefully passed peacefully and I think that there's an argument for that and I think that there's bodily autonomy and

100%, I think most Canadians would say, you know what, in those very rare circumstances, if there's enough checks and that person is of sound body state of mind, and that is their decision, I don't think many Canadians would be 100 % opposed to that. think where Canadians get opposed is when you're going through something traumatic and the nurse says, have you thought about me?

Chloe Smellink (25:05.296)
Mm-hmm.

Chloe Smellink (25:20.336)
Yep, I watched here. I watched the I watched the video clip that you had posted from from that podcast and that's where I'm just

I know from not personal, but other friends experiences who have gone to the hospital because they have thought or say done a slight attempt for suicide have gone to the hospital stated, Hey, I want to commit suicide. The nurse's response was, well, until you try, then you can come back again.

So we had a student, I used to work for residents, we had a student where he realized this, but he knew that he really needed help. And he knew the only way he was going to get it is by being extreme. So he walked in the hospital and went with a knife and was like, I will kill myself and everyone around me if someone doesn't get me mental health help. He goes, I won't really, but I know that this is the only way. And it's just like one to have to put yourself in that position just to be heard.

Christopher Balkaran (26:14.328)
Wow.

Christopher Balkaran (26:21.229)
Yeah.

Chloe Smellink (26:22.454)
And to like, it's not a comfortable position to put anyone else in, especially if you are not like that. But to me, I'd rather see someone do that and make that nurse those people feel so uncomfortable and actually give them the proper care. And the shitty thing though, too, is that nurses and doctors, unless they individually went out and took the time.

Christopher Balkaran (26:28.686)
Right. Right.

Chloe Smellink (26:50.83)
to go and study mental health. They're not informed in the same ways that a psychotherapist or a counselor or a psychot all of, yeah, all of the all of the ones within that field. It's two different medicals that you're looking at.

So even then too for a nurse though to even respond like that it's like lady you don't even have the educational background to give such a fucked up response That a solution to someone's problem is to kill themselves

Christopher Balkaran (27:26.862)
That's insane. On that same point, the fifth annual report was released by the federal government in December on Maid, has stats up to 2023. What's interesting here is 82 % did not access mental health services before signing on for Maid. Now, I have to just, for those that are unaware, there are two tracks for Maid here in Canada. One where death is foreseeable and certain.

terminal illness, et cetera. And 95 % of all made deaths here in Canada are through track one. Then there's track two, where death is not certain, but you have a chronic illness or mental health issue, and you can still qualify for made. In track one, there used to be a 10-day waiting period, where you have terminal cancer. It's typical, right?

you get diagnosed with terminal cancer, you're automatically, chances are you're pretty like, this is it, I don't want no more pain, I'm over, like let's just sign up for Maid right away. Up until 2021, there was a 10 day cooling off period where you say, you know what, like, it's not the best way to go either. So let me just take some time and figure out if this is in fact something that I want. They removed that 10 day waiting period.

for terminal illness. So you can get approved for made the same day you request it for track one. And I think that to me is a clear indication that there are people on these health committees that want to unalive people as quickly as possible.

I know that's a very grim statement, but...

Chloe Smellink (29:11.583)
And, to me again, first thought I'm like, how much money do you get for this? How much money do you get for this? And again, I just, yeah, how much money are you getting for this? I mean, I do agree with, cause we had, I had for,

Christopher Balkaran (29:19.658)
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Chloe Smellink (29:34.128)
one of the specialization courses that I took, one of the head guys, terminal cancer, like very awful process of the type of cancer that he had. and I mean, he went through made, but he took the process very slowly personally. And he wanted to, because of, of the specialization,

Christopher Balkaran (29:43.426)
Mm-hmm.

Christopher Balkaran (29:54.872)
Mm-hmm.

Chloe Smellink (30:01.338)
therapy technique that he was very much a part of and taught. You go through, you have parts of yourself is how you kind of go through the process. So he wanted to ensure that every part of who he was, was okay with this decision rather than going about it in the

pre-made period, where he would have had to continue chemo treatments, lose his voice completely, have no speech, and his entire job for all of his life was literally talking and being a therapist and healing and helping people. So the way that he went about it, I thought was beautiful, and he truly made the decision wholly with actually taking time for it. Because to me, even a 10-day period is not

Christopher Balkaran (30:22.52)
Yeah.

Christopher Balkaran (30:49.9)
Yeah.

Chloe Smellink (30:50.52)
enough time and it's just yeah it's just like we can do it in the same day let's do it before they change their minds.

Christopher Balkaran (30:55.648)
Yes, exactly. Like, why would that be removed? Like you said, 10 days is not long at all, but why remove it? Right? Why not extend it? Make it 30 days. Make it two months. Make it like six months. Right?

Chloe Smellink (31:03.618)
Yes. Yeah.

Chloe Smellink (31:08.75)
Yeah, it should be an individual factor because again, just as we're both saying, if you have if you're terminally ill, death is going to come and you don't want to go through that process. To me, you should have that individual right for that like, yeah.

But whenever it's the opposite, it's just like at least 10 days, 10 days for providing other sources of help because now say how you said, majority of the people that are doing it where it's not that death illness haven't seen anyone for mental health or anything. So why not within those days, provide them with resourcing for that help?

because majority it's that it's not affordable or not accessible or they're just unaware of their resources. So now you're an aware healthcare practitioner and you're not going to provide them the right kind of care.

Christopher Balkaran (32:05.442)
Yeah, you're right. when you go through the stats, and again, the stats are, again, I think both of us would agree the stats are under reported based on what we're seeing. But some of the number one reasons, even for track one, it's not that someone, you know, had a cancer diagnosis and wants made. I think that's what most people think. It's actually not the case. People get a terminal diagnosis and they lose function of their like

bodily functions and then they start thinking, well, I don't want this quality of life. But so that's one. The other two, which are really interesting is loneliness and feeling like I'm going to be a burden to my family and I don't want to put them through that. Now, in all of these three situations, I'm thinking, OK, you lose bodily function. So let's say you can't fully control the muscles. Let's say you need to go to the bathroom, whatever. You can't control those muscles anymore, right?

and you're going and you're soiling yourself. Like that is very like, we would probably agree, like that is very tough for a person to now know that they're literally soiling themselves and they have no control over it. I get that. But I recognize that that could be a mental barrier you can overcome and be like, you know what, this is part of my reality. I do have nurses that I can work with to get properly changed, et cetera, and freshen up on a regular basis.

Chloe Smellink (33:10.65)
Okay.

Chloe Smellink (33:31.311)
Yep.

Christopher Balkaran (33:33.47)
on being lonely and feeling like a burden, those are also mental health barriers. You can work with a person like yourself on psychotherapy and understanding like, am I really a burden, Chloe? Like, am I truly a burden? Like, I don't want to feel lonely. Like, I'm feeling lonely, you know? So then it gets me thinking, it's not the diagnosis, it's your interpretation of your diagnosis, if that makes sense.

Chloe Smellink (33:58.382)
Yeah, so there's, there's actually a really good book that I'd recommend. I mean, anyone to read even if you're feeling fabulous with life, like, I know that my transition of my view of the world from say, the start of 2024 compared to now, complete complete shift, takes a lot of time, energy, work, bones breaking kind of thing. But it's called

don't be in the gap be in the game. Or it's like the gap in the game. Something around that. So even within this book, the author is writing where it's just like, you do have people that like you get in horrific car accident, you lose your legs. Now you've lost bodily functions. You could look at it and be like, my life is completely ruined. Or you could flip the switch and go, I don't have done on my legs anymore.

Christopher Balkaran (34:48.43)
Mm-hmm.

Chloe Smellink (34:57.39)
But I sure should have a new challenge now to overcome in life. And I know that I've overcome other things in life that I'm strong enough for this and I have more to offer than my my abilities to walk or my abilities for athletic performance because I can say

Christopher Balkaran (35:00.974)
Hmm.

Christopher Balkaran (35:11.619)
Yeah.

Chloe Smellink (35:16.686)
To me, it definitely would hit you mentally different if you were someone where athletics was like a huge thing to you compared to someone where office job doesn't really care. Yeah, it's gonna hit you differently, but it's shifting your perspective of what can I learn from this? How can I grow from this?

Christopher Balkaran (35:34.798)
Mm-hmm.

Chloe Smellink (35:37.058)
whenever I hear the burden piece from people of like, I'm just a burden on my family. It's gonna sound really hard. So before that is a people pleasing part of you because why the fuck do you think your family has especially whenever you're an adult, you are responsible for you.

Christopher Balkaran (35:47.501)
Yeah.

Christopher Balkaran (35:53.838)
Mm.

Chloe Smellink (36:04.129)
Unless you're going out of your way to lay all of your shit onto your family who cannot resolve it, all they can do is listen. How are you not a burden?

Christopher Balkaran (36:12.13)
Yep.

Christopher Balkaran (36:15.79)
Hmm.

Chloe Smellink (36:16.45)
I've gone through this personally with my sister, someone who states it plenty of times and she's going through a rough time in her life. But everything that she's going through, she's doing to herself, not me. She's not a burden to me. She's burdening herself and how she a position that she could have been in now. But also that type of thinking doesn't help either.

Christopher Balkaran (36:29.965)
Hmm.

Christopher Balkaran (36:41.326)
Mm-hmm.

Chloe Smellink (36:44.352)
It's how can people start flipping the switch? But especially if you're an individual going to maid, those healthcare professionals, flip that fucking switch for those people. Help them see that path.

Christopher Balkaran (36:59.098)
Yeah, 100 % in fact, so one thing I want to mention again for those that are you know thinking that Like I'm trying to take away made from everyone and all this stuff like, you know I just want to put this into perspective in California similar population 40 million people there They have made they only have made for those with terminal illness less than six months Doctor prescribed like that's their timeline their numbers are on average

800 per year since 2017. It doesn't fluctuate. It generally hovers around 800 in total. Four thousand nine hundred people since its inception. Since its inception here in Canada, sixty five thousand. Seventeen percent year over year increase. We do have track two where death is not foreseeable. And we there are instances. So the in here in Ontario.

I shouldn't be talking about this, but I will. There's the Made Death Review Committee, MDRC. So glad this committee exists. They openly say there are instances where there is coercion done by physicians, or not physicians, people in the health space. So all that to say, it is very concerning here in Canada that we're not providing mental health supports.

when people come to made it's not this like ideologically like i've got six months to live i've got stage four cancer it's over i'm doing made it's like no no no i have cancer i'm feeling lonely i'm doing made it's like there's help for your loneliness you know what i mean

Chloe Smellink (38:41.848)
And yeah, and that's the part though, too. Like as you state, it's just like, even for someone with cancer, why would you not want to provide a more positive narrative and story for them? Like they decide it, it all gets cleared through. I'd still want to be then that that person that is there during that time with them to provide them a more positive narrative.

Christopher Balkaran (39:06.743)
Yes.

Chloe Smellink (39:07.586)
Around that moment because it's such a significant moment for you as an individual I mean majority of things are scared of death. They're not okay with it and it is a very lonely time because Even though we all go through it at that moment. It's just you by yourself going through it So that's where it's to me it's like I mean, I can't say a hundred percent but to my belief

Christopher Balkaran (39:13.976)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Christopher Balkaran (39:25.73)
Yeah, it's so true.

Chloe Smellink (39:35.12)
It's not where say underneath the made information on the website that there is then resourcing for mental health services and even the mental health services provided by the government. It's like, okay, you're going to provide this, but you're not going to state all the ways underneath that you're going to provide it. Is that because also all of those ways that you've provided mental health, you know that

Anyone accessing those still most likely doesn't have a chance of getting better because you don't actually care to help people Become their best selves you want to help them up until a point that they've got that hope but they're still gonna fucking crumble But you can say that you did your part and pat yourself on the back

Christopher Balkaran (40:12.312)
Yep.

Christopher Balkaran (40:18.398)
It's wild, Chloe, because there's even cases where, so say Christopher applies for track two, where death is not certain and say I'm going through like a deep depression, there's a 90 day waiting period for track two, where they're like, okay, Christopher, we'll give you three months and maybe in those three months, don't have that for track one, by the way. But say I'm in a severe depression cycle.

I don't want to see anyone, I'm bedridden, I don't want to even get up. There are cases where I can decline the treatment for my severe depression, say they give me antidepressants, I can decline that treatment, thereby bypass track two, qualify for track one, and then get made approved the same day. How messed is that?

Christopher Balkaran (41:17.036)
Yeah. So.

Chloe Smellink (41:19.14)
And it's where especially like say for severe depression, mean like.

Christopher Balkaran (41:25.614)
Mm-hmm.

Chloe Smellink (41:27.662)
There's made and then I mean the other the other solution that many physicians and people give or that that People the individuals going through it themselves what they want is the the medications then so not to actually solve What the root causes of your daily depression? Let's mask it

where I was just the other day I was listening to a fabulous podcast with Tony Robbins and he was going over how in the US right now so SSRIs have like it does not solve your problem. It doesn't actually resolve your depression or your anxiety.

Also depending on where the source is of your depression and anxiety and if you've been misdiagnosed with those and not diagnosed with your other mental health concerns SSRIs can actually worsen your anxiety and depression not help it. So for 43,000 Americans that are prescribed SSRIs it doesn't actually resolve your fucking depression.

Christopher Balkaran (42:35.544)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Chloe Smellink (42:36.804)
they continue to prescribe it and it and I can say though to where it is a lot of people they just they don't care to put in the work for themselves. And what the most messy I'm just like you don't care to put in the work for yourself. But any of you would lay your life on the line for that perfectly paying job. Amazing amount of money every year.

Christopher Balkaran (43:00.172)
my god, so true.

Chloe Smellink (43:04.218)
for all those materialist whatever things that you want, like you do whatever for that, but for yourself, you're gonna take, I'm sorry, the easy way out and take medication.

Christopher Balkaran (43:18.35)
That is so true. And I try to tell folks this too, you I went down the meditation journey like years and years and years ago and like only now I think I'm seeing the real benefits of it. I try to tell people like it's a marathon. It's not a sprint. It's not like you meditate tonight and tomorrow your problems go away. And I think that's like kind of like the Western way we look at things like to your point about medication. It's like I remember reading something in Time magazine called

like at a van of the United States of at a van and it's like this astronomical number of Americans who are just hooked on at a van just to get through the next day week month and it got me thinking it's like this is the transactional relationship we have with our our mental well-being like just take a pill it's subsidized subsides your immediate anxiety, but let me not deal with the root cause because Christopher keeps talking about with this meditation stuff. That's like

a 10, 20 year journey, like forget that. I'm here just to get immediate relief.

Chloe Smellink (44:20.72)
which to me is just where it's like again. And I know just as you said, like it's it's it is because of how the Western world has displayed how what life is really meant to be about what your place is in this world, which is to work, work, work, schedule in your breaks, but never fully have a break never fully enjoy because you know you're going right back into that job that a lot of people hate to do.

Christopher Balkaran (44:45.452)
Yeah. Yup.

Chloe Smellink (44:49.142)
and then retire early so that you can enjoy life but yet because you didn't attend to your mental health or to yourself or slow it down you've got an autoimmune disease you've got cancer you're gonna have Alzheimer's dementia like they're showing more and more that all of those older diseases autoimmune things all those things

are coming from not from what necessarily like you've been ingesting food wise or smoking or whatever stuff. It's it's that you haven't taken the time to attend to this which connects to everything else within you. And it's just I find it so sad like I yeah, it is.

It is to take a moment to take a step back because every person does deserve to have a mental health that feels good for themselves, not for their workplace, not for their mom or their dad, not for their siblings, not for their partner for themselves that they feel good within themselves. Because if it's for anything else, it's also not going to stick through. And yeah, it's yeah.

Christopher Balkaran (46:00.856)
Chloe, you mentioned high performing executives, things like that, like anything you do for your job kind of thing. 75 hour work weeks, not thinking about your health leads to all these diseases, right? And so this is something I posed a few times and people had really good reactions and really bad reactions to, but the data, I mean, it is what it is, but 95 % of recipients of Made in Canada are white.

which is an over-representation of the white community relative to our population. Of 40 million Canadians, 73 % are white or identify as white, and yet in May, 95%. And so the reason I bring that up, 65,000 May deaths, 95 % being white, I do think that's something for us to chat about because it's also seen in California. California, again, 40 million people,

35 % of Californians are white. Majority are Hispanic or African-American. Yet 85 % of made requests are white Californians. And so when I started seeing this data, I was like, wait, hang on. Now I'm starting to see a correlation between something in the white community that

Chloe Smellink (47:05.232)
Yeah.

Christopher Balkaran (47:26.282)
opens them up to the idea of made or at least like is, you know, if a nurse suggests that why would a white Canadian or a white Californian be like, you know what, I haven't thought about that, but maybe I should start thinking about that. Like, you know what I mean? Underrepresented groups are underrepresented in made, but white Californians and Canadians are overrepresented. I'd love to know what you think about that, because do you see a racial

disparity when it comes to mental health as well.

Chloe Smellink (48:01.165)
Mm-hmm.

I can say that this is from people that I know personally, this is from clients, this is from research. Depending on...

what your background is, what your culture is, what your religion is. There's a lot less of culture, community, religion within white communities. More of it is being pushed off to the side. To me, in other cultures, you do find that family and community are such a big thing for people. So there's always kind of that support system feeling.

Christopher Balkaran (48:30.648)
Mm, right.

Christopher Balkaran (48:42.701)
Yeah.

Chloe Smellink (48:51.412)
I thankfully had parents who were both immigrants from Europe. Definitely similarities obviously to Canadians and the states of other white folks. But there's still, I know there still was that difference of the importance of family, of connection, of community, of being neighborly for one another.

Christopher Balkaran (49:08.186)
Yeah

Christopher Balkaran (49:15.064)
Mm-hmm.

Chloe Smellink (49:20.752)
of how to kind of like your reality and your view of life.

Chloe Smellink (49:29.708)
In my own personal perspective, can say I truly do believe that a lot of white people in the US and Canada, and again, it's not where there's like blame put to it because it's society's structure in its way, we have all our influences, all that stuff. There's definitely much more of a laziness and you're on your own kind of thing.

Christopher Balkaran (49:53.464)
Hmm.

Chloe Smellink (49:57.392)
I hear a lot more where it's like, soon as the kid turns 18 out of the fucking house, you're not my responsibility anymore. So there's not that like continual family kind of reliance for one another. And we that's a whole other topic because that can also the way that that goes about in many in many other cultures, and my family causes a whole different issue. But that's that's a different topic. I just see it where

Christopher Balkaran (50:01.834)
Yeah. Yeah.

Christopher Balkaran (50:21.303)
Yeah, yeah,

Chloe Smellink (50:26.966)
Yeah, the things that become of importance to a lot of white people compared to say other cultures, leaves them where yeah, you're gonna feel a lot more lonely in life. The things that are put up as of an importance to you.

which usually are more material things.

once those lead Yeah, like there's, there's just how what, how you're formed and what you're meant to be looking at as of importance and everything. For a lot of white people compared to other, it's just it's going to leave you in a position of that. Because where you get your importance from as an individual to comes from that job that you work that car you drive the apartment or house that you live in the clothes you wear, the people that you hang out with all that sort of stuff. Whereas I find another yet in other cultures, it's just where it's

Christopher Balkaran (50:49.091)
Yeah.

Christopher Balkaran (51:11.682)
Mm-hmm.

Chloe Smellink (51:18.746)
like you've got so many other beautiful things that they outline to rely on.

Christopher Balkaran (51:27.682)
Yeah, you know, and I know it's a tough conversation because I think that, you know, when we talk like diversity, equity and inclusion, we don't talk about these very real issues that are affecting the white community. And I just wonder sometimes, you know, that lack of, like you say, you know, 18, you're out the house, your room is being converted into like dad's office now or whatever the case is. like, you know, it then forces the individual to think, okay, then where can I find community? Okay, let me just delve right into my work. Let me just...

120 % work weekends. It's not like I can go home and visit my parents, know. Let me, you know, get involved in my community in some meaningful way. And when those things start falling apart or things don't go your way, I can understand why someone would be like, well, this is actually quite a lonely existence, you know, like, I don't get it.

Chloe Smellink (52:17.198)
Yeah. Well, and even like, I'd want to see to even the ages of, of, of the of the white people that are signing up for this going through with this. Just because I have found to over the past few years, the new narrative that has been and is continually being pushed. If you were a white man,

Christopher Balkaran (52:27.31)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Chloe Smellink (52:46.658)
You come with all sorts of evil.

Christopher Balkaran (52:49.038)
Hmm.

Chloe Smellink (52:50.488)
and like automatically labeled as such. And then also depending on what you do for work, what your personal beliefs are, what your political beliefs are, religious, how much money you make, people are going to then define you based off of those one little factors of who you are totally as a person. Because I've never my dad's never been say someone who's been bothered by whatever is being said, he knows who he is as a person.

Christopher Balkaran (52:52.578)
Yep. Yep.

Christopher Balkaran (53:07.48)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Chloe Smellink (53:20.504)
When the narrative started getting really heavy, though, based off of his political views and his personal views of self, we're then transitioned and spoken to the world throughout all the media of like, that makes you a racist, a homophobe. You've been privileged your entire life. You don't work all that sort of you're you're stupid on all the different stuff.

Christopher Balkaran (53:25.099)
yeah.

Chloe Smellink (53:43.969)
It did it did slowly affect him and not even in a way of like self-reflection, but just he himself even sat there he's like how the hell like How this is not gonna turn out good For a lot of young men

Christopher Balkaran (53:57.07)
Mm-hmm.

Yep, 100%. It's terrible. In fact, I've had people message me saying, imagine being a young man who graduates top of his class in engineering, gets a really high paying job at an engineering firm, becomes like senior manager, partner even, and at 35, you know, is financially set for the rest of his life.

Chloe Smellink (54:24.804)
Mm-hmm.

Christopher Balkaran (54:26.04)
put money in the bank, he can live off the interest off that and he's good for life. Yeah, on paper that sounds great, but guess what? Like everywhere you turn, I can't open my mouth as a white man. I can't say things as a white man. I'm looked at as like the oppressor or a trust fund baby or et cetera.

Chloe Smellink (54:45.732)
that Yeah, like you put no work to get that engineering degree. It was handed to you. Daddy must have had something to do with it. It's like

Christopher Balkaran (54:50.925)
headed to you.

Christopher Balkaran (54:55.224)
Yeah. Yeah.

Chloe Smellink (54:58.808)
because I'm just like that yeah I watched a very old interview I think it was with who it now it wasn't Denzel Washington I forget what actor the way that he stated though within the interview because it had to do with again

the color of his skin rather than him as a human being. So he had sat there and he was just like, you know, I really don't appreciate that. That's the part that you're asking me about. He's like, because I know you personally outside of say this interview time, he goes, and I call you by your name and I know you by your name. You are you, whatever the name is. He's like, so instead of...

Asking me questions based off of my skin color. He goes, how would you ask me about who I am as an individual? Because that isn't he's and that and I mean it's different for everyone It is it is where I find we've really gotten to a point of like picking apart different parts of who people are where it's just like Why not just have a conversation with someone get curious And if they're different get curious about those differences

Christopher Balkaran (55:52.622)
Mm-hmm.

Christopher Balkaran (56:14.264)
Yeah, it's just so wild to me that we've reverted identity to such a vapid, know, material, sorry, surface level understandings, but not recognizing the real deep impact it has mentally to people. And I posted this and I think people, I don't know if people took it the wrong way. I don't know, I just post things and I just see where it goes, as you know. But I've always wondered with DEI, it's like...

Chloe Smellink (56:38.511)
Yeah.

Christopher Balkaran (56:44.194)
DEI replaces some form of perceived or intentional discrimination with another form of discrimination. And we're not internalizing the altruistic nature of removing bias and telephone interviews and people behind walls. It's like there's people by their nature are biased instead of trying to remove it. We should acknowledge it. But at the same time, we can't

demonize white people or a white man because we know the impact that has and it's showing up in made, it's showing up in so many in the suicide stats, etc. And that has to play a role in those feelings.

Chloe Smellink (57:27.354)
Well, what doesn't make any sense is during a time where people have pushed for so much individualism of see me for who I am, what my sexuality is, what I identify as, da da da. So you want all of who you are to be respected and known by the entire fucking world. But then you're gonna go turn around and make a complete assumption about a white guy or any man in general?

Christopher Balkaran (57:34.264)
Yeah.

Christopher Balkaran (57:38.478)
Hmm.

Christopher Balkaran (57:49.23)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Chloe Smellink (57:56.878)
You want your individual things, but if someone else one also doesn't even agree with that, well then they're a fucking asshole. They don't understand anything. How dare you did it? It's like, well, you're not giving understanding that them for who they are. So you can't and it's just where it's, it's also like that. No one truly gives a shit who you are as an individual. What matters is that you like yourself as an individual.

And a lot of the times if you get triggered by others who don't like individual parts of who you are, it's because you don't like it. It has nothing to do with them.

Christopher Balkaran (58:32.514)
Yeah. Exactly. And so, you know, I think the other thing, and again, I really do encourage people, I'll leave links below for the Fifth Annual Report on Maid as well as the Maid Death Review Committee here in Ontario. I mean, when you really go through the data, it is really fascinating. mean, there are stories of, first of all, people also think that these are rich white people who are doing Maid.

28 % of track two is from marginalized communities. So again, if we think 95 % are white, these are low income white people who are now choosing made in higher numbers than before. And then also there are drivers. There's a man here in the report says, this man had inflammatory bowel disease and a history of addiction, access made without adequate exploration of addiction treatments or family consultation.

Concerns were raised about physicians introducing maid during assessments for unrelated issues. And the practice risks shape the decision-making during those moments of vulnerability. And it goes back to everything you've said, Chloe. It's like you're in a very vulnerable state. know, if you, let's say you signed up for something and you suddenly owe a lot of money or, you know, an investment didn't work out.

you go to your tax accountant and you're so vulnerable. So you're to listen to what your tax accountant or your investment advisor says. And in that moment, you don't have that time to assess, take some time to like say, okay, this is what I can do. But if that tax advisor says to you, you know what, put all your money here and you're guaranteed a return. you, chances are you might do that because you're in this vulnerable state. And so similarly here,

Chloe Smellink (59:59.5)
Yeah

Christopher Balkaran (01:00:21.096)
in vulnerable states, we're seeing practitioners are raising made when people are coming for unrelated issues. And that's so scary to me.

Chloe Smellink (01:00:30.32)
Well, and it's just, I... The only way that I can see it is that there's something evil within you, because it's where, like, again, as a psychotherapist, I do have to ask clients, has suicide ever been a thought? Has it ever been attempted?

Christopher Balkaran (01:00:44.61)
Yes.

Christopher Balkaran (01:00:48.141)
Right.

Chloe Smellink (01:00:49.188)
to you see in the future, has a bit of thin your family. It's uncomfortable to even ask those questions or like how to find a way to mix it in the mix of questions, you ask them. And that's asking if it's been done to, I could never imagine to sit there and suggest, well, you've gone off about a pretty shitty life. Have you ever thought about just ending it instead?

Christopher Balkaran (01:01:07.374)
Mm-hmm.

Christopher Balkaran (01:01:15.244)
Yeah, exactly. Like, what?

Chloe Smellink (01:01:18.434)
How do you approach that in a calm, caring, like...

I just, to me if I was one of those people going in and that's what a practitioner had said to me, my response would be have you ever thought of made as well? Have you ever thought about it too?

That's my suggestion.

Christopher Balkaran (01:01:43.278)
We can both take it at the same time. How about that?

Chloe Smellink (01:01:46.052)
Yeah! We can fast track it too today, guys, apparently! We just really just... yeah, I...

Christopher Balkaran (01:01:50.05)
Yeah, yeah.

Christopher Balkaran (01:01:55.916)
Yeah. And this is like, this is the conversation. know, last year I did a conversation with I think three or four therapists on and we chatted about Maid and one of them did this study with 16 individuals who had spinal cord injuries, quadriplegics, know, immediate, like, you know, like you mentioned, car accident. And all 16 were suicidal within like the first two weeks of the diagnosis. So like a hundred percent, like they peaked and

So these therapists said, you know what, I wonder if we just did like just regular psychotherapy work for the next 90 days. And one said, why don't we do it for 15 days? And they did it for 15 days and they found that within like the number of suicidal ideation went down dramatically. And it just kept going down, kept going down to after like a six month period, like nobody was suicidal. Everyone was like, yeah, this is my life now. I'm okay with it. You know, and that tells us that

There's neuroplasticity, there are ways we can treat these things and people can live. And that is part of the ethical order of being a physician. You know, when you read the studies in the MDRC report, you know, a man with a mental health illness, addictions, a strained social network, access made without proper family involvement. A woman with severe housing related suffering.

accessed maid despite the primary driver being her living conditions rather than a medical condition. A man who's quadriplegic sought a maid within two years of his injury. The case raised concerns about his insufficient time to adjust and the lack of multidisciplinary consultation. So to me, all of these cases, even though people will say, those are one-offs, et cetera, it's like the numbers don't lie.

Clearly, there's a writing off of psychosocial interventions that is actively being done by our medical health professionals. And that, to me, is very concerning.

Chloe Smellink (01:03:58.71)
Yeah, and I know, like, and that's where I mean, a lot of inspiration for the work that I want to do. For the stuff that I'm currently doing for the work though, that I really, really like, want to get into, expand, explore and everything. It is more specifically for men's mental health. But I wanted to go beyond the

the clinical aspect of the one-on-one sessions. Because just as you said, there was a woman due to housing. There are plenty of people that, I mean, you lose a job, you start using, now you lose your home, you're homeless, use it like, and they keep shutting down the safe injection sites as well. There's that on top of it.

people.

Chloe Smellink (01:04:56.592)
People, find, are...

They're not having purpose for themselves. And their belief of what a purpose should be, again, is misconstrued due to society.

Christopher Balkaran (01:05:05.292)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chloe Smellink (01:05:15.162)
There's obviously a lot of other factors, but it is where like within the mental health field, I do think that there needs to be more of an expansion that goes beyond just the session on session action. It should be where it's implemented more in different institutions. I mean, for myself personally, I know that I want to be able to be connected with men within the trades, within corporations. So then I can provide a leeway into

to other men that want to train other men within the trades who don't necessarily have wouldn't have had that opportunity. I want to provide it that they're building their own home so that they feel that purpose. Like there's so many different ways that people can go about it. And it's to get creative with it.

And this is, mean, you could be outside of the mental health field, but still see that there's an issue going on. It's like, okay, out of the work that you're doing right now, how could your work benefit other human beings?

Christopher Balkaran (01:06:19.342)
Mm-hmm.

Chloe Smellink (01:06:20.552)
in either helping them financially, food wise, housing, or just even helping them find a purpose or just a better message than what the hell majority of humans are taking in and feeling for themselves. Like it's just, I can say, yeah, I can say a lot on the mental health side.

There are plenty of shitty mental health workers and therapists and organizations, but there are plenty of wonderful, beautiful humans within it that are really trying to help people out that like the people that have reached out and unfortunately follow through with made. Yeah, it's there's.

Christopher Balkaran (01:07:08.878)
Chloe, is something I know we're over time. I wanted to end with you because I do struggle with this myself. This is not on the same dire straight as made, years ago when I was really young, I injured my knees and I went to see a physiotherapist and they said, yeah, 100 % physio is all you need just to the way your patella moves, et cetera. And then I went to see and then one physiotherapist said, have you ever thought of seeing a surgeon? And I go to see a surgeon and they're like, yeah, 100 % you need surgery.

And I'm like, wait a second. So I went back to another physiotherapist and they're like, no, you don't need surgery. You need to strengthen the muscles around the knee. And regardless of you get surgery or not, you'll still need to do that. So why not just do that? Because surgery won't fix anything. And so all of that to say it, like you said, there are people out there in the medical profession that are not doing things that are in your best interest as a patient necessarily.

Chloe Smellink (01:07:38.16)
Mm-hmm.

Chloe Smellink (01:07:51.807)
Mm-hmm.

Christopher Balkaran (01:08:06.252)
I remember having an anxiety attack and I remember the doctor saying, I could prescribe you Prozac right now and your anxiety will be gone immediately. But you will be addicted to Prozac for the rest of your life. And you may have suicidal ideation because of the side effects of Prozac. And he's like, I would rather you go down the path of holistic, like meditation, things like that. And I'm thinking to myself, had that person not said that to me, I would have signed up for Prozac because anxiety attacks are no joke.

All of that to say, I know I went down a bit of a spiral there, but all of that to say, where does like personal autonomy begin and end in this? Because I struggle with someone, I struggle with the individual right that a person has to say, I do have a shitty housing situation and I do want to end my life. And how dare you Christopher, tell me I can't. And it's like,

Chloe Smellink (01:09:03.536)
Yes.

Christopher Balkaran (01:09:06.206)
Yeah, like, I guess, like, you're right, you know, but my concern is medical health professionals saying, yeah, that's a good idea. You should do that because they have an ethical responsibility to keep you balanced. All right. All right. So I struggle with personal autonomy is all that to say. I don't know. What do you think about that?

Chloe Smellink (01:09:23.352)
Allah.

Chloe Smellink (01:09:30.89)
so I think it is also to where a lot of humans and again, this is this is how it's set up is that you were under the belief that you have to find certain answers from outside sources.

and that you don't have the answers within yourself, or that it's also too, that whenever you're going to therapist, to go and see a therapist, that the therapist is solely helping you, that you're offering nothing, where it's just like, no, no, no, no, no, that's the wrong story that's been displayed. If you say if you were to come to therapy, see me and your client, we're an equal playing field.

Christopher Balkaran (01:09:59.086)
Mm-hmm.

Christopher Balkaran (01:10:07.19)
Yeah.

Chloe Smellink (01:10:22.454)
I'm the expert in knowing different strategies of how to take the information and what you want from this. I've got the strategies to help you sort and sift through that. But you're the one who knows your story. You're the one who knows what you want at the end, how you want to heal all those like, I can't tell you what to do. You have to do that for yourself.

Christopher Balkaran (01:10:50.263)
Yeah.

Chloe Smellink (01:10:50.484)
I help you sift and sort through I'm the guide, but you're the leader throughout that journey. So that is where to because as you said, like to have a person be like, how dare you guys take this to me at the end of the day. Every person has an individual right to do what you want when you want to.

Christopher Balkaran (01:10:57.378)
Mm-hmm.

Christopher Balkaran (01:11:12.205)
Yes.

Chloe Smellink (01:11:15.14)
but there's just, I'm not doing my job if I'm not taking the time to get you to get curious about yourself and where this suicidal ideation then is coming from. Because it also is like, how can a healthcare professional sign off on someone doing this? Who sits like, who is that person where it's like, I wanna commit suicide, this is it, you know?

Christopher Balkaran (01:11:30.83)
Mm-hmm.

Christopher Balkaran (01:11:44.398)
Yeah.

Chloe Smellink (01:11:46.552)
the lease you can then provide for that person is a clear understanding of why and where that's coming from. Don't argue them on it then, then let's clear this out, not for the clinician, for the client. So it's.

Christopher Balkaran (01:12:01.146)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. 100%. It's like, like you say, finding out that root cause of that ideation, because it is an ideation, and we all have ideations 100%, and they don't have to be as dramatic as suicidal, but they could be other things, you know, like, what would it be like if I left my wife? What would it be like if I left my job? You know, we have all types of ideation, and so, like you say, your job is to get to the root of why that ideation is rooting in your mind, and why are you, you know,

thinking about it so much. again, it's not about removing someone's autonomy. It's about, like you say, getting them curious about decisions that may affect other people directly, indirectly.

Chloe Smellink (01:12:45.576)
So I can say I wouldn't include. I think it's very selfish of others to expect a person to think about them as they're dealing with themselves. For decisions, people make a decision that's going to work best for you. And usually it will be the best decision for others around you because if you are making decisions from a good intentional place,

It is thinking of you first, because again, it's that we're we are all very much there are few that aren't and I'm slowly getting out of it, but people pleasing. And that part has to get the fuck out. COVID really heightened that with we all have to be there for no, no, no, no, you're not there for yourself. You're shit, you're gonna be shit at the end anyways. So

Christopher Balkaran (01:13:19.16)
Yeah.

Christopher Balkaran (01:13:30.936)
Yeah.

Christopher Balkaran (01:13:35.704)
Yeah.

Christopher Balkaran (01:13:41.504)
Yeah, yeah. Chloe, we covered a lot of topics today, and I just want to say thank you for coming on again, sharing your perspectives. I think it's so important that we have these conversations because again, it's just I always say this. think the reason why these podcasts take off is because there is an unwillingness by our media, our government to have tough conversations.

Chloe Smellink (01:13:45.722)
Thank

Christopher Balkaran (01:14:08.852)
And I really do appreciate the work of yourself and psychotherapy as a whole, because I do think that it unwires ourself from this otherwise hyper-driven Western society that we've created, which I often wonder how sustainable it is, because I look back at ancient civilizations, and certainly they had entrepreneurs, and certainly they had driven people, but they were able to survive as a society for thousands of years.

we're new on this whole individual rights and freedoms thing, relatively speaking, and we're seeing some of the, as you mentioned, gaps. And it's easy for people to fall into those gaps and spiral down instead of kind of thinking, okay, this is a bit abnormal, I need to lift myself up. So I really do appreciate the work that you're doing and all psychotherapy as a whole. And I'm curious to

Chloe Smellink (01:14:49.593)
Yes.

Christopher Balkaran (01:15:04.242)
for us to come back in a few months and revisit some of these topics and case studies that you'd be willing to share. Certainly, of course, taking people's names out, but I'd love to know because I think people will relate more and more to the case studies that you see.

Chloe Smellink (01:15:20.598)
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And absolutely would love to yeah, absolutely would love to do that. So I mean, here whenever whenever we want to touch base back again. But I think yeah, I think I think people hearing others, other stories, conflicts, and success stories gives inspiration for yourself and also realizing that what you might think might be abnormal.

Christopher Balkaran (01:15:32.321)
Love it.

Chloe Smellink (01:15:48.176)
of your thinking or doing whatever it is really isn't that weird. And better to clear it and clarify it for yourself than to keep questioning it and being mean, you know?

Christopher Balkaran (01:15:49.624)
Yeah.

Christopher Balkaran (01:15:53.378)
Yeah.

Christopher Balkaran (01:16:02.752)
Yeah, 100%. Why? Why do that, right? Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you so much, Chloe. I really appreciate that. Again, I'll leave links to Chloe's work as well below so that folks can check that out, as well as the MDRC and Maid Reports too. But thanks again, Chloe. I really appreciate your time and we'll definitely chat again.

Chloe Smellink (01:16:05.424)
No, no boy.

Chloe Smellink (01:16:21.412)
Thank you to Chris, for have a lovely day and yeah, we'll see you later.