Kasey Swithenbank, LUSH

Kasey is the Head of UK&I Retail at LUSH leading the UK and Ireland market with 106 shops and more than 2000 employees. With over 13 years of experience in the cosmetic retail industry, she's developed a deep expertise in retail strategy, retail marketing, product launches, and product forecasting.

Transcript

Speaker A: On this episode of the NSL podcast, Ian Scott and I chat with Casey Swithenbank, the head of UK and Ireland retail for Lush. Casey shares her experiences running retail and how lush is able to create incredibly personalized experiences in store for their customers. The secret? It's the people, and it always is. They have incredibly talented store associates and managers that make magic every single day. Let's roll. Hi, Casey.

Speaker B: Hi, Ian.

Speaker A: How are you?

Speaker C: I'm very well, Marco. It's lovely to see you again. And hello, Casey. We're really looking forward to this conversation.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, thank you. Thrilled to be here.

Speaker A: Not to speak for Ian, but I think he's been looking forward to this one for a very long time.

Speaker C: I record, I did a podcast with some Americans with about a month ago, and they were asking about best practice, and they went, right, this question here, you cannot answer luck because I think I've used you as an example in about four examples. You're not allowed to answer luck. And I go, I will try.

Speaker B: It's so rewarding to know that the work that I guess the effort that we do put into our retail practices is appreciated. So, yeah, thank you for being such a big fan.

Speaker C: My pleasure.

Speaker A: Yeah. When I was in London last, Ian took me to lush, and I got to see firsthand just the passion that he has for the stores and the staff and walking me around, and we did a store tour right before rts earlier this week, and Ian took folks around and I saw some pictures and, yeah, there's some really incredible things about lush and very much appreciated by us and I think the rest of the world. And that's what we're excited to chat with you about today. So would you mind just giving a little bit of introduction and some information about yourself?

Speaker B: Yeah. So I started working for lash back in 2010. It was actually in the April. I should check that. What date shouldn't I? I'm sure my. We call it our lashiversary. So my 14 year lashiversary is just been and gone by the looks of the date. But I joined. I was in university, I was studying religious studies. And the aim was always to go into teaching, but I started working as a sales assistant, get a bit of extra pocket money to pay for student life. And, yeah, I just. I just fell in love with everything. Everything about the brand. I'll be honest, I've always loved retail. My parents joked. My father did my wedding speech and joked that there was no surprise that I'd found a career path in retail because of how I was when I was younger, going shopping, car book sales, very traditional british weekend activity. And, yeah, it was just the products, the way that they approached creating new products, the way that they really put their heart and soul into everything, the core brand values. It just felt like I was part of something a bit bigger. And here we are 14 years on, and now I get to say that I lead the UK and Ireland retail market, so, yeah, they've never been able to get rid of me.

Speaker C: So that's a really nice career progression over 14 years to rise up. And I was chatting with someone the other day. We actually interviewed Lee from Hugo Boss. We interviewed him earlier this week, and I. And he was the same. He started as a Saturday job and is now their director of retail for Europe. And I love seeing people that have that transition where they get hooked about the uniqueness of retail and they turn it into a career like you, when they don't actually plan it being a career. It's a bit of pocket money, as you said, it's great people. Yeah.

Speaker B: And I just. I've seen parts of the world that I just would never have dreamt of seeing. I worked with, you know, people from different cultures that I don't know if I would have necessarily have got to do that, if I'd have gone into teaching, like, stuck to that plan. And I find it so rewarding that, you know, I can still remember some of my first customers on, like, a first name basis. And, you know, I remember when she started shopping in our Cardiff store and she was pregnant and she'd been gifted a lush gift set at her baby shower through work. And we got talking and she brought the baby in a few months later. And I got to see that baby turn into a toddler and then a young man, and she had future children. And it's not just. I think people do view retail sometimes as transactional, but we've got a chance to, I guess, make a real connection with people and help people make lasting memories. I. People ask me why I'm so big on experiences in retail. We probably will go on to talk about some of that. But I remember going shopping when I was younger with my friends, first time into the city. And there's certain retailers that will stick in my mind, you. You have a baby, and there's certain retailers that when they get their first shoe, you'll. You'll take them to that retailer getting married. You'll. You know, you'll want to make wedding lists or wedding dress shopping. Retail plays such a part in our everyday life. And when we look back on our life, retail will play a part in those memories. So, yeah, I think that's why I'm so passionate about it.

Speaker C: But I think lush. I'm sorry, Marcus, I'm going to butt in on every question. I apologize now. But it's like to me, there are three unique things about the physical store. You know, you can touch and feel the product, the power of peripheral vision to distract you to buy other things, which is so much stronger physically than it is online. But the third one, and the most important one to me, is the human to human interaction. And digital visions cannot come close to that. And I often say that the store staff are the living, breathing embodiment of your brand values, which means they will either ruin it or they will enhance it. So you leave, you know, amazed with a big smile on your face. And so many people get it wrong. So many people undervalue their staff. You know, I see some retailers where the staff are an annoying overhead. They're trying to reduce as much as possible. And I think, you know, you take the staff out, you take that content, you digitize the store. And my thought is you're just paying rent for your website. You know, you, and I always say lot, the best example of how you can recruit the right people, train them, empower them and excitement, and you can stand back as a business and just let them surprise and delight your customers. And like you say, you have a, you have an amazing retail experience and it can stick with you for years. And you're referencing the shoes. You know, here in the UK, we have clark's shoes. And it's a sort of ritual, marcus, that we have here is clients where you always go for your school shoes, your first shoes, and used to before everything was digitized, you put your foot on this cold metal plate and they put a little tape measure over the top of your shoe and you'd measure, and it was, it was a thing. I still remember it, you know, 40, 50 years later, I still remember that process of clark shoes. And so some of these retail experience literally stayed with us for the rest of our lives, don't they?

Speaker B: Yeah, we have to get it right. It's really impactful.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Getting it wrong is very dangerous. And I, the problem is you get a lot of people that go, oh, if we do that, it will go wrong. I go, well, don't not do the best thing because you're going to get it wrong. Concentrate on investing and learning. So it's right because you get the power of surprising and delighting customers. They will tell their friends. So that becomes what I call a ripple effect. Free advertising. But also you have secondary benefits, like the staff stay longer. Here's someone with interviewing someone who started as a Saturday girl and he's still here 14 years later, you know, so you would save on recruitment costs, you save on training costs, you know, and there's this whole ecosystem of benefits and people just look so short sightedly and I think luxury one of the best examples of the benefit and power of that.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's the right thing to do for the consumer as well. Like, you know, we, those of us that go out shopping, we work hard for our money. It's the right thing to do to make sure that we make sure they go away with the product that is going to be right for them. But, yeah, like all the points you just said, Ian, it sort of just makes business sense to prioritize the staff and the people they do bring the business, the product, the core brand values all to life.

Speaker A: It's all good. I don't mind just sitting back and kind of listening at this point in talking about the customer experience and what your store staff is doing and other brands that have incredible store teams. What are some of the maybe changes or trends or things happening across retail or even with consumers and shifts in consumer behavior that you're looking at and trying to either predict or get in front of to ensure that that customer shopping experience in the store remains seamless and memorable?

Speaker B: I think shopping online has become well, over the years, it's just becoming easier and easier. There's so many new technologies out there which does allow you to do things online that you wouldn't normally have been able to do. You know, you can get your makeup test patched online to make sure you're going away with the right shades. So I think we need, as retailers, it's our responsibility to give people a reason to leave their house and we spoke about those memories. We need to give people a reason to leave their houses, shop with us and make lasting memories so lush. We are great, I would say, at experiential retail. You know, you come into our shop and you'll get slathered with creams and we'll really encourage you to get stuck in most of our shops now you can make your own bathroom to go away with. We've started over the last couple of years really enhancing our spa offering. So in the UK, we've got a spine of, and throughout the rest of the world. But we've got a select shops with spa locations, so it's not just about come in shopping. Now, we're bringing well being into the retail space and I think all retailers to help the high street. If we could all look at what consumers are actually wanting in order to encourage them to leave their house, we can. We've all got our bits, you know, our part to play in that.

Speaker C: The spas are a delightful, delightful bonus, you know, when you come into the store. You know, I've not looked around London because it's always been bought, but I've looked around Liverpool and I was shown around Glasgow last week as well. And you go in and it's like a little away system. And what I like is it's not exactly the same as the store, you know, the style and the fit out. It, it's, it's reflective of what you'd expect as part of it. And it was incredible. They were proudly showing me the bird sound in Glasgow and all the doors have got bird names on and they were explaining how mark, your founder, is passionate about birds. And I've seen some of the books he'd written on it and I know he's trying to. Is it rewild ospreys in parts of the country at the moment? They were telling me.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's right.

Speaker C: And that storytelling around the experience just adds another layer of enjoyment.

Speaker B: Yeah. And it is, it's completely like any other spa. If, if you've got a chance to go and have a treatment, I really recommend it. It's. I think you go into most spas and there is a track playing and it's sort of on, on a loop. And regardless of the treatment you're having, that same track is, is likely playing. But every treatment in lush has been, um, we say choreographed, because the spa therapists, at times it does feel like they're doing a dance on their clients. And our own in house band has curated a piece of music especially for that treatment. So we want the client to come in feeling one way and we're hoping they leave feeling another way. And the music is a big part of that and that setting. So, yeah, I speak about it being magical and it truly is, it's, yeah, just completely different. It'll blow your minds when you.

Speaker C: I'm definitely gonna go back and sit in that bath in Glasgow. I'm just so inviting. The next time in Glasgow, I'm definitely gonna book a session there. It's wonderful.

Speaker A: That is, that is one of the things the, when you walk into a lush store. You know that you're at lush. And I. I think that, and Ian can attest to this, I think the experience when you step into one of your stores is very, very different in a lot of ways than other retailers. And I'm curious from you, Casey, how much of that brand experience you think plays a role in just the customer satisfaction, even if they're not intending to buy anything, how important is that? Just to change the way that a customer would interact with the brand and ensure that they have those memorable experiences to keep coming back to?

Speaker B: Yes. So important. I think, at the heart of it, we say we're a cosmetics business, but we are a well being brand. And regardless of purchase, we really want people to leave our shops feeling that little bit brighter. So whether they've purchased something that they're going to take home and they're going to see the benefit on their skin or their hair, or whether they've just had a positive interaction with a staff member, we have our own in house random act of kindness policy, where we actively encourage staff to be daymakers. And if they make a connection with a customer, they will send that customer away with a gift as a treat off from them, because of the relationship they've built during their time together. And I think it's just these little nuances that, I guess, enhance the experience when you. When you come into a lush.

Speaker C: I remember the first time I had that experience with my son, who had. I think you may have told Marcus this story before. He was given a bath bomb about five years ago for Christmas, and he had no idea what it was. And I do an annual trip to London. I take him to Lego and his brother to Niketown. And we went into the store and we said, could you explain what a bath bomb is? Because Freddie had one. He went, no, no, we'll get Freddie to demonstrate a bath bomb. And everyone crowded round and a big countdown, and they gave him a huge round of applause and we went to the bath bomb category and I was going to buy him one. And the lady that helped with the demonstration came up with a free one and a little card that saying, thank you for bringing the thunder, Freddie. And it was just a wonderful little moment. And he is still a huge luft bath bonfire. But one of the personal benefits for me is whenever I go in a store and tell someone that they give me a free bath bomb for them. I haven't had to buy one for years. And there's like six of them lined up on top of the bathroom cabins. Now, but I tried explaining that to another retailer and he was like, are you crazy? We'll go bust if our staff give everything away. And I thought, you just don't understand the thinking because the staff won't give everything away. You empower them to do that. They actually respect that situation. They might just give everything aware they will make a decision based on the merit of the situation. And I've seen so many examples where retailers train their staff and then trust them to do the right thing without micromanaging. And they always deliver.

Speaker B: Yeah, lead with trust. It's a big, a big part of our business. I was actually someone who works at Kony, the travel, and they have something similar, and they, you know, people obviously go in to them for, you know, things like honeymoons, like really big impactful times of their life to go and celebrate. And it was, it was very similar. Like, we're both teaching our staff to actively listen so we can pay close attention to what's going to make a difference to that individual's lives. Yeah, I think you're right, Ian. Just seeing the bigger picture, it can have such a lasting effect.

Speaker C: And I remember I met your property manager at an event last year, and she was explaining about how your store managers can choose their own staffing levels. Is that correct?

Speaker B: Yeah. You know, we have a rough guide of what, what is recommended. People actually get. You know, I think sometimes can get shocked when I, you know, we're talking 20% of our sales could go on staffing and in some instances more, whereas that is maybe a bit unheard of in traditional retail businesses. And, you know, we spoke about the staff being the reason that our core brand values are brought to life and they give the products a voice. So the. We do lead with trust throughout the business and our managers are very autonomous. They, you know, they've actually, it's April now. They've just set their own store budgets for the following financial year, where they've communicated to the business what they think is achievable in terms of sales, what they think they're going to need from their staffing in order to achieve those sales. They. Yeah, they do. Each individual shop is run like an individual business, so the manager recruits their own staff. They don't get, there's no sign off involved from, you know, head office roles or anything like that. Head office are here to serve our shops. We are a retail business, so we are a support network for the shops to lean on in order for them to grow their businesses.

Speaker C: I mean, I think Sara said there are 110 people working at Oxford street. So she's effectively the managing director of 110 strong business. And I saw a wonderful post on LinkedIn from someone saying, if you want to recruit a good business leader, take a retail leader. And they were referencing Walmart. A store manager at Walmart is managing a multi million pound business day to day. That multitasking requirements of engaging directly with customers and staff and handling stock and, you know, things going wrong outside the door. And it's an amazing skill set to have, I think.

Speaker B: Yeah, all the, you know, we, all of our managers at lash, we call them the best marketeers on the high streets because they're in charge of, you know, localizing pride and just different marketing. They, you know, they take control of all of their Google, my business pages, for example, anyone who leaves a review on one of their page is they, they reply to directly from that shop location. So, yeah, so many different skills that, you know, retail managers have and, yeah, definitely agree with that person on LinkedIn.

Speaker A: That's really interesting. Yeah, I find that fascinating because you were essentially creating kind of a mom and pop sort of experience where the store manager or director is actually empowered as a business owner in that way. And everything from the marketing to a Google review and comment, you feel like if you're just a customer in that area, you know, the team, that has to be a huge advantage for the business to create really personalized experiences to the point where the customer really feels like they know, they know the brand.

Speaker B: Yeah, community is a big. We speak about it a lot at lush and I think sometimes it's quite easy to, when we think of community, you know, for example, our shop managers and their teams will research what is happening in their local community and we have a product called charity Pot where they can, I guess, throw a party for that local charity and then all the sales of that product, minus the VAT, can go directly to that small grassroots charity who wouldn't ordinarily get funding. So that's a clear example of how our shops are embedded in their communities and supporting their communities. But then, like you say, Marcus, the, the personalisation of the shop staff replying to Google reviews, it's, it's, yeah, it's a very holistic approach to community.

Speaker C: I think it's a wonderful embodiment of actually when, when you have one person going, oh, we shouldn't spend loads on training because what if we train them and they leave? And the obvious response is, what if we don't? Then they stem. And I think you're that perfect embodiment of understanding the benefits of that. And so many retailers I've brought to your stores. I remember I did a tour with Vodafone a couple of years ago and they were like, why, we're going to lush. And I went, just trust me. And you were the last store. And there's this wonderful guy called Josh who used to work in that store and he used to do little tours for me, waving his arms around and throwing showered yells at people to. And these guys, they were retail directors from Vodafone came out and they didn't, we need jock in our store. I want to steal him and put him on the plane and take him back to Germany or Italy or something. And even now I bumped into one of them 18 months later. He went, we're still talking about lush, you know, and he's trying to get people to understand that. And I love people bringing people from other sectors because I'm going forget about what the product is. I'm showing you. Let me show you a store. And I often say you had a checklist of the ten things you should do in a store and lush will do all of them. And I'm going to stop fanboying eventually at the end of this podcast, but, you know, but I mean it. And I actually went for a job interview about five or six years ago with a company that did store research, behavioral psychology and store design. And the owner of the business went, what's your favorite store? And I said, lush. And he leant back and smiled and he told me after that was, that was the point. He decided to give me the job because he was like minded as well. And it's great to see over people. It's like a light comes on their eye when they see the merchandising, the communication hierarchy, the product presentation, the staff, the sustainable approach. And one of my favorite things was when Sergio, the former store manager, Ged, would tour a lovely, lovely guy, Sergio. And he said that when they did the research three years ago, the store design team, Ken and I sat with him and listened to him. And a lot of companies do tokenism in his evidence. And he was talking about, you know, I need the tax to swivel so I can swipe them out of the way when I'm doing demonstrations of things. And it was recognizing that someone who lives and breathes that store, you know, 35, 40 hours a day, a week will have his free insight, you know, and so many stores need to talk to their staff. The staff will tell you if people are struggling to find something or the returns process is awkward. And Sergio captured it, that moment going, you know, they really valued what he said because he had that experience of the store and what needed to evolve. And that was another wonderful sort of tickling in the box for you.

Speaker B: Yeah, we're not. We're not there all the time. Well, you know, for me, like, I live in South Wales, so I would be probably a shopping, like, between Cardiff and Bristol. So would have a good insight into those locations and how people shop in those locations. But I'm definitely not the expert in how people shop in Preston, so want to make changes to that store or whatever it is. We need to speak to the people that are there every single day who know the customers, know what they are asking, know how they tend to shop, how they, you know, what sort of direction they go in when they come into the shop, all those sorts of things that we just wouldn't. You can't tell from looking at data. So, yeah, every step. And they, you know, the design team will go away, do a design, and then the shop manager will feed back on that design. Sometimes it can. The design can change three or four times before we get to a final, final decision, can I just ask about.

Speaker C: Oh, sorry, mark, go ahead.

Speaker A: Go ahead, Ian. Go ahead.

Speaker C: I heard a story that when you were designing the Liverpool store, that mark, the founder, just handed over a picture of an old 1950s department store with wood paneling, some stairs and a plant, and that's the design brief. Is that true or is that a fable? That's sort of been.

Speaker B: I wasn't involved in that process, but that wouldn't surprise me. Yeah, I think, you know, old school, department school stores are an inspiration for our anchor stores and how you can come into a department store and you spend hours and hours there. So I definitely think the department store feel was part of that Liverpool design.

Speaker C: Process, and it works fabulously well. I liked how it captured that essence, but you didn't throw the baby out with a bathwater. The core elements of lush is still very evident.

Speaker B: Yeah, definitely.

Speaker A: I wanted to ask Casey, getting back to, with the store managers, reviewing store designs in different markets and giving that feedback loop, one of the questions was, how do you cater and tailor to customers in different regions to ensure that they have the same experience? It seems pretty obvious that the reliance is actually on the staff that's on the ground to give that feedback back to you and the others on your peer group and team to make informed decisions, not necessarily based on data, but actually firsthand experience and insights.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Like, I said. They're the experts. They're living in those communities, they're working in those communities, they're socializing in those communities. They're going to be the ones that are in the best position to tell us whether the store needs a standalone party space because it's very frequently visited by young families or whether it's heavily tourist based. And tourists tend to come to that location for spa weekends and so a spa in that location is the right decision. They, you know, we often get pitches from managers putting proposals through to us for larger stores or new elements to be added to their current store, and it is because they know their customers best.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love that you mentioned different store formats. And im curious from your perspective, does your approach and philosophy change with different store formats, sizes and in different markets, or how do you kind of approach that from your perspective?

Speaker B: It would vary depending on the country, the region. Like I said, some regions are going to be more tourist heavy than others, so they might need a slightly different format. I was in Dublin the other week, funny enough, and I spent the day in our Grafton street store, which I would say over half of our visitors were tourists. And then the following day I went to an out of town shopping centre in Dundrum where it was 99% were family based. And so of course those two stores need something slightly different. So I think it's just important to look at the demographic who is going to be shopping with you and what would make their experience better.

Speaker C: Can I ask about the Tokyo stores? Because I've been fortunate to visit both of them. Was that triggered by. I mean, I presume you had a big online audience in Japan. I wasn't. Well, I was curious about what made you open stores there.

Speaker B: We've been in Japan for years and years now, so it's a really long term relationship with that market. But I wouldn't be the expert to comment on the size of the shops or deciding on whether to open more stores. Every country has their own version of me with a team around them, and again, the same principles apply of talking to those managers, finding out what they think their customers are going to want. That autonomy piece that I spoke about, it's not just we're a UK brand, but that belief that, you know, the people in those markets are the experts. So we.

Speaker C: Saw that the app was created for the Harajuku store originally and now it's come back and also the rear illuminated bath bomb wall. And I love how there was an adaptation because I've always called Lushdall wonderfully analog, not because I'm anti technology, I hasten to where Marcus, a technology provider, appearing over my shoulder. But. But what you demonstrate, what you can maximize without relying on. And even in Oxford Street, I don't know what's the three screens alone and the little ones at the checkout. So you're not leveraging technology as a crutch for the business. You know, you selectively use bits of it. And I love that idea. And certainly, you know, the, I call the yo sushi conveyor belts with the bath bomb. And they sort of go into one market and then they get integrated into the core offering. And the same with the flower offer. I've been see a little Paris store with the flowers, which is beautiful, and now we're seeing the flowers appear in other stores as well. So is that sort of principle sort of test something in a market where it's predominantly popular?

Speaker B: And then I think, you know, Japan would have a stronger tech, at least when we did Harajuku a few years ago, a stronger tech culture. But I think it's important not to just throw tech at things for the sake of it, because other people are doing it. So lash lens came because our products are naked, they don't have packaging. So if a customer does want to shop alone or find out more about that product, they can use their smartphone to scan that packaging free product to get the information, get a video showing exactly how to use it. And it just makes sense that that was sort of launched in a market where technology is at the forefront. But then, as you said, it's made its way into other markets now. So as long as you've got that lush app, you can use that anyway.

Speaker A: And, you know, I think one of the themes that we've had, we've uncovered in speaking. We spoke, Ian mentioned, we spoke with Lee earlier this week, and you just mentioned not technology for the sake of it. In your approach, when you're looking at different technologies or innovations, what are the things that you're considering to make those judgments and decisions? Is it a matter of input from soar staffs, or are there some things that you're in particular looking at to help inform those decisions?

Speaker B: A little bit of everything, really. We've actually, we've got a team of tech wizards that it would go right over my head when I'm talking about this, but they built our own POS system. Our til system is all built in house. It's not something we bought off the shelf. We had feedback from staff around our ordering and, you know, stock inventory system. So that team then went on to build our own in house stock system that is up and running in the UK. So I soon to be America, I think so, yeah, definitely. The UK does tend to be a test and learn site for other markets, but then, you know, when we think of lush lens, that that is more customer led and actually what's going to benefit the customer, that's ultimately the most important thing. So, yeah, various approaches, but it's more, let's fulfill a need that our customers or our staff have.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I imagine that that sort of creates a buffer between latching onto different trends and AI is everywhere, everybody's talking about it. And I was at a conference recently and something to the effect of if you're not adopting AI or using it, you're losing. And I'm thinking maybe not. I think we can probably slow down on that narrative a little bit. How do you kind of resist the urge to fall for that trap, if you will, or some of your teams to not just jump into something just for the sake of it? Is it purely just based on customer need and that's informing your decisions?

Speaker B: Yeah, a lot of the time. But I think you use the word trend and it will, it'll be interesting to see what happens over the next couple of years. And, you know, I talked all earlier about how you can go online now and get your skin tested to color match for your foundation and I can't help but wonder how many of us will. It almost feels like a novelty to do that, but actually, surely we want to try it and make sure it's the right one first. Yeah, it'll be. It'll be interesting to see how the industry follows with that thought process.

Speaker C: I think I often get quite cynical of how people leap on the bandwagon. This is the future of retail. And I roll my. Everyone remember the metaverse, remember that from a few years ago, that was the future. And Martin Zuckerberg is still hanging his hat on that. And then you see these sort of trends come through and I always feel, which is great, a ****** good store and put great people in and present your product well, because I often say to retailers, you've got 20% of improvement just by doing what you're doing properly. I don't say, I mean, that's probably a little bit negative, but you know, there's 20% of gain to be had by saying it a little better or positioning the sign better or training your staff a bit better. You know, the incremental gains are still huge in most repay and you don't need to leap on the back. I mean, you famously have not been on social media as a business, not affected your business. Primark refused to do e commerce, and I applaud them for it because their business model is not geared up. 30% of those t shirts being returned free of charge, they're still growing successfully. And I will say, if you're a ****** good version of your authentic selves, you have huge scope to not have the legal maybe ban.

Speaker B: Yeah, stick to what you know. I think. Yeah. And, you know, I've. I think I've made it very clear I'm really passionate about the people in retail and in particular in Lush's business. So I just. Right now, I don't think there's a piece of AI that could replace them. So.

Speaker A: No, no, absolutely.

Speaker B: Yeah. Right now, where I'm at.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I agree. People jumping on and latching onto those trends. Everybody has an opportunity to sort of sit back and observe and see how that happens. But you're right. I mean, when you have a brand like lush that's so human centric, from the store staff to the service that the customers provide and then everything else that the brand embodies, to throw a technology in there to essentially replace that element wouldn't make sense. And I think it comes down to authenticity in the brand story. I know Ian mentioned the example, you guys, not on social media, you know, that's authentic to lush and to do anything separate from that or to then throw. Throw investment and resources to adopt some type of AI because it's trend based would just be counter to what you've built.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think it has to make sense. I think the team of tech that work for Lashead, constantly innovating and coming up with new ideas, it blows my mind sometimes. So never say never to, like, these aspects come into the forefront, but it's got to make sense and it's got to be true to who we are. You know, I spoke about the lush lens. That makes sense because it. It's a piece of tech that celebrates the fact that you don't need packaging on cosmetics. So it fits with our core brand values. So that sort of. I think it needs to make sense for the brand.

Speaker C: You've done a digital bath bomb as well, haven't you? I've not seen one of those yet, but that I thought was quite intriguing.

Speaker B: Launching tomorrow, funny enough, oil bath bomb day tomorrow. 29 years. We got the trademark for the bath bomb. And, yeah, the bath bot is coming. It's a floating Bluetooth speaker that yeah, with, like, you can change the lights on it, you can change the music, and that's all been built, designed in house and then manufacturing. Wales has been supporting on that.

Speaker C: I look forward to that, definitely.

Speaker A: You know, when you were speaking earlier, Casey, about starting your career and working on Saturdays and now in your position now leading London and the UK and Ireland, it reminded me a little bit of Ron Thurston's book on retail pride and the idea around the accidental career, so to speak, where whether you're coming out of university and school or just working part time and then just really finding your footing and working through and working your way up, and there are dozens of opportunities, if not hundreds, for retail leaders. And that path isn't always highlighted as a true career path. And so I'm curious, just from your perspective, what would you say to folks, store staff, that are starting their careers and giving them some guidance on how to move forward and really begin and build a career for yourself in this industry?

Speaker B: Oh, wow. That's a good question, isn't it? I don't necessarily know if advice is if I've got any, because like I said, I think it turned into. It was a bit of a fluke that I stayed with lush for so long. I think my biggest piece of advice would be to ask what I always say to people when you get to a retirement age, what can you imagine sort of closing the door on? And I genuinely, for me, can see myself being in retail for, you know, for the, for the future. I'm so passionate about it. I love the people I work with that play such an integral part into why I've stayed in retail and in particular lush, you know, thinking about their values, what they do for staff. It's. I've had two young children with lush that I've been financially supported. We have a fantastic parental leave policy and it's all these. That that was such an important part for me. I knew I wanted to grow a family, so to work for a business that was so family friendly made sense to me. So there's. Within retail, there's so many scopes for different brands, different industries, you know, you can, you're always learning something new. So if you're someone who craves learning new things, meeting new people, just learning new approaches to things, I think, yeah, retail is the way to go, definitely.

Speaker A: I love that. Well, we're running, getting close to stopping time here. Casey, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. This was a fantastic discussion. I know. We were really excited to have you on, both of us. Are big fans of the brand. I don't know if I'm as big of a fan as Ian is, but I've always loved lush. I remember the first time actually walking into a store and buying something for my mom. I was traveling and had never been into a lush store, and I think it was in Berlin, maybe, and I just remember that. And then coming back to the US and recognizing, oh, this is a brand that's global, and we can shop here as well. And it's always stuck with me. And then visiting the store in London this past year with Ian just opened my eyes to all the different things that you guys do. Really incredible, you know, inside the store with the store staff and all those things. And so it was a great experience, and I really appreciate it and appreciate your time. And, yeah, this was really fantastic.

Speaker B: Oh, I'm glad you've enjoyed. Yeah, we're definitely not, we're not perfect, but we're definitely trying our best, and we just. We feel it is such a privilege to serve people. So thank you for having me on to chat about it.

Speaker C: Absolutely. You're doing a very good job, even if you're not perfect. And it's been absolute pleasure chat in with you, Casey. Thank you.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker A: Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the podcast, which is presented by new store. We'll catch you next time on the msrtaine.