Illicit Liaisons
Illicit Liaisons
Illicit Liaisons: Sleuthing Couples, Fan Fic & Amnesia trope with Jenna Harte
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This week, our guest host is romance and mystery author Jenna Harte (yes, me!), where we discuss passionate sleuthing couples, fan fiction, the amnesia trope, and more!
LINKS TO JENNA HARTE
Jenna Harte: https://jennaharte.com
Jenna's Author Page: https://amzn.to/4b39fKF
BOOKS MENTIONED ON THE SHOW
Valentine Mysteries (7 books in KU): https://amzn.to/40tacWv
New Release: Dead but Not Forgotten: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0GKZF2HYK
Deadly Valentine by Jenna Harte: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008TGH622
Old Flames Never Die by Jenna Harte: https://amzn.to/4bkIX5C
Naked in Death by JD Robb: https://amzn.to/4lo4u1z
An Offer from a Gentleman by Julia Quinn: https://amzn.to/4lty7Po
Jane Eyre by Charlotte Brontë: https://amzn.to/3Nh6V9C
Pamela by Samuel Richardson: https://amzn.to/46WroY9
That Time I Got Drunk and Saved a Demon by Kimberly Lemming: https://www.amazon.com/That-Drunk-Saved-Demon-Mishaps-ebook/dp/B0BTZ2MDLL
TENDER & TEMPTING TALES
Tender and Tempting Tales Substack: Subscribe and get a FREE story! https://tenderandtemptingtales.substack.com/
Tender and Tempting Tales on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tendertemptingtales/
Hello, romance readers. Welcome to Elicit Liaison's with Tender and Tempting Tales, where each week we discuss the good, the bad, and the naughty of romance fiction. I'm Tara Lederman, social media manager here at Tender and Tempting Tales, as well as a science fiction romance author. And the reason you're hearing me do the opening today is because the highlight of this week's podcast is Jenna Hart herself. Jenna is the founder and managing editor here at Our Little Press, helping us usher steamy anthologies and spicy zines to all of you. She's also, of course, a romance author, having written the Southern Heat Contemporary Romance series and the Sexy Valentine Mysteries, which features a married, sleuthing, and murder-solving couple called Tess and Jack, and which I've been enjoying immensely. Jenna has a brand new Valentine mystery re-releasing this month, Dead but Not Forgotten. We'll have Jenna's website where you can find all of her Valentine and Southern Heat mysteries, as well as where you can get a free story from Jenna in today's show notes. Welcome to the pod, Jenna.
SPEAKER_00Yay! Thank you for having me on my own show.
SPEAKER_03Well, I really wanted to talk about your book, and I, you know, I feel bad crowding in on another guest. So you get to be the feature today.
SPEAKER_00I'm all for it.
SPEAKER_03You feeling good?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Let's go.
SPEAKER_03All right. So we love to talk about trends and romance. Normally we like to talk about bookish news, interesting hot takes, or trends we come across in the bookish world. This week we thought we'd talk about pet peeves. Jenna has quite a lot of them. Uh she hasn't established romantic couple in the Valentine mystery. And you never run out of ways to explore romance and drama between the two of them. Um, but I think we both feel like we don't see enough of that, especially when there's romance and television shows. Uh, why do you think that is?
SPEAKER_00Oh, because the writers don't know what to do. I think in soap operas, right, you have to sort of mess them up. You finally get the couple together, but they can only be happy for about a day and a half before an ex comes in or whatever it is, right? But there's a lot of television shows with the will they or won't they, or you know, you're shipping them, and they draw it out forever. They're about to get together, and then something messes them up. Like bones, for example, took them what, seven or eight seasons. Um, I love the Murdoch mysteries, it took them seven or eight seasons, and um, and then sometimes they come together and it doesn't work. I think moonlighting was when that came out in the 80s, and they had a lot of chemistry, will they or won't they? And then when they finally get them together, they sort of jump the shark. And there's this idea like once they're together, all the zing and chemistry is gone. And I think it's just a function of writers not being able to figure out how to work that. And and of course, my example of it working would be the show Heart to Heart, which um was canceled for moonlighting, much to many of the fans' that's not cool. Um, and so here we had a couple that had a lot of zing and snap crackle pop, they were happily married. Uh, every week they're solving a mystery, but they also had a lot of elements. There was a lot of fun innuendo, and that was what made the show work. And in fact, the actors who played them said that when writers would come in and say, Well, let's let's do something that kind of messes with the marriage, like no one of them looks at somebody else or something. And they were like, Absolutely not, and thank goodness, because that's what made it work. So that show shows it could work. I don't know why other shows can't do it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I wonder if it's a function of like young writers, or there aren't enough like romances out there that are providing a model for what like a romance between a married couple or an established couple can look like. So there's fewer tropes to play with, you know. There seem to be a lot of tropes for how to get people together, you know, your fake engagement, your fit, your fault, your your your prop proximity, your uh there's only one bed, you know, your enemies to lovers, your friends to lovers, you know, but there are fewer for what to do with a romance in an established relationship. So it's like there's no ring.
SPEAKER_00It's almost like once they're in love, they don't get to banter anymore or whatever. Uh, I think of the thin man, right? That came out in the 30s, I guess. And Nick and Nora, they have really good banter. If you don't want to read the book, watch the movies. And of course, Heart to Heart was kind of based on them. So they still had those elements that made them fun. They just weren't coming together anymore. And the conflicts occurred more outside of them than between them. I mean, sometimes they did, sometimes they might have a different thought. I know in the Valentine books, when I write them, especially in the early books, they still have some things they need to work through. So there are some conflicts between them, but a lot of times it's them against the world. Uh, I describe the Valentines as a couple who stumble over dead bodies by day and tumble into bed at night. And who wouldn't love that?
SPEAKER_03I think it's fine.
SPEAKER_00And I'm struggle. I I don't like that it's so hard to find.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, agreed. I mean, I I I really love Grey's Anatomy, which actually does have an established couple in it. But some of the issues between Meredith and Derek are extremely stupid. Like the show doesn't jump the shark because of them, it jumps the shark because of the plane crash, which I will stand by, but it's still it's still pretty bad, some of the problems that they have in their marriage.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And I think it like in terms of reading, if you like mysteries and a sleuthing couple, I love a sleuthing couple, those do exist, but the sexy elements, the romantic elements really aren't there because a lot of times they are cozy mysteries and cozy readers don't tend to like those elements. Carolyn Hart has her uh Death on Demand series, which has a, they don't start out married, but they get married in the book, Max and Annie Darling. So there, you know, there are, if you want to see a couple, you know, solving crimes, those those do exist, but they don't have the elements I like, which is all the mushy romance or the spicy elements. The the exception would be the JD Robb books, right? Because even Rourke, you know, they they um it's mostly Eve solving the crime, but Rourke is there and there's usually a spicy bit or two in there. Perfect. So uh, but for a long time that was it. And so that's sort of why I started writing because I was like, I want more of that. Why can't I have more of that?
SPEAKER_03Write what you want to see in the world.
SPEAKER_00That's right.
SPEAKER_03Well, speaking of established couples, you said that Tess and Jack and the Valentine mysteries are inspired by other sleofing couples you've seen. Can you tell me more about where that came from? Like I I know that like you were watching a lot of heart to heart and like you were trying to create the couple that you wanted to see, but like what was actually the moment where you decided you had to write it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, I think what was really strange is um I was actually watching Heart to Heart when I went into syndication. I didn't watch it when it came out. Uh and I that's what I love, uh, sexy romantic characters. You you eventually go onto the internet and you look around, and I saw people were writing stories about them. And I thought, well, that would be fun because there's things I would like to see them do. Or there were things they did in the show that I was like, I don't like that. I wish they had done that different, you know. So I started writing because there was this place where they people were writing it down and posting it, and I thought, well, I'll do that. So that's sort of where it started. But I uh I like a lot of sleuthing couples. I do like Nick and Nora Charles. Um Agatha Christie has the Bearsfords. And she what was interesting about the Bearsfords, now they weren't sexy necessarily, but they had some fun banter. And what was fun about them is when she wrote them, we saw them come together and then we saw entire lives up until retirement. So, you know, they had kids and raised kids, but were getting involved in these crimes. Oh, I love that. In the 80s, they BBC did did a show, which I thought was really fun. It was a little bit campy, but it was really fun. I loved it. I really did enjoy that. And then again, they did it again in the 2010s. I want to say that one wasn't, I didn't like it as much. It was a little too serious and and didn't sort of have that um fun between between Tommy and Tuppets. That was their name. Tommy and Tuppets Beresford. Puppets? Tumpets, yeah. Yeah, Tommy and Tuppets. But when I started writing, it really was around heart to heart. And and I began reading romance and sort of like, why can't why don't we have this? This did not exist at the time. And of course, we're talking about the late 90s and early 2000s. We we see more of that now. I know you know Marie Force has a series with a couple. So I know they exist now, but at the time I couldn't find anything, so I started writing.
SPEAKER_03Well, I sense in their question, which I want to ask you, but of course, you don't have to answer this. You have said that you got your start writing fan fiction. Uh, I did too. I feel like you can learn so much about an author by asking what fanfic they started with. Like, so which fandom did you get your start in and how has it influenced your writing? And I think I know the answer. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, you know what's funny is when I first started writing, it's sort of when you read romance authors and they're saying they they don't come right out and tell you they write romance or they write under another name because they're hiding it. I felt the same way around fan fiction. I felt like I can't tell people that I started I got my start writing with fan fiction or even what it was. And then, of course, now in the last decade or so, we've learned so many authors started the same. And in fact, many of them took a story that they wrote as a fan fiction and repurposed it into an original story. That's the thing that was published, right?
SPEAKER_03So many people assume that's what all of our stories are, though. Like, oh, this must be a fan fiction that you're gonna be.
SPEAKER_00Well, I have poached, I have poached some of my fan fiction for the Valentines, and then I created another couple of the Delacores who were who I I actually did take some stories that I'm coaching it.
SPEAKER_03It's your it's your work, you're allowed to repurpose it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and of course, sometimes when you're writing fan fiction, right, you're you you are taking the world and the characters, but you're putting them in and sometimes you're reimagining things, right? So it's still sort of my ideas. What if they met this way instead? Or you know, what if this happened instead? So in that part, there is some originality to it. But anyways, my start was with heart to heart. Nice, I knew. And I was writing, and and I would write sometimes new meeting stories, but sometimes I'd write new uh stories around some sort of crime that they're solving. I have lots of things that I wrote that were I didn't like how they did that scene, so I'm gonna rewrite it. Sometimes in the show they would hint at something. Like I remember one show they hinted at getting snowed in, and there was a lot of innuendo around being snowed in, and I thought, well, I'm writing that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Right through the fanfic.
SPEAKER_00And and you know, that's what fans loved. So that's where I got my start. I actually had a story that was stolen twice. Somebody took it and like changed the names for a different fandom. That's insane. And I got an email saying, Do you also write for this show? It was like it was a soap opera, it was like one life to live or something.
SPEAKER_03I was like, I can't believe that. I've never had that happen to me. Like, you it must have been really good.
SPEAKER_00People still you know, to look at the writing now would be like, I don't think so. But the story obviously resonated. So that's when I started thinking, well, maybe I maybe I could write. And I actually sent the story to Rachel because in my mind she was a big reader, and of course she loved it because she's my sister.
SPEAKER_03Um sisters being our best, our biggest fans is a really good story.
SPEAKER_00So that set me on the path to create something original. Now, the first Valentine mystery is original. I I really I didn't poach anything except for the concept of having a couple.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I I knew I wanted a series where every book they solved a crime and they also did sexy things and they bantered a lot. Uh so that's what that series came to be. But they're Tess and Jack are not the couple from heart to heart.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no, they they they're they feel very original to me. But I mean, even if you had, like if it was closer to that, like I think that fan fiction is a wonderful, a kind of like a ready-made community of people who are already interested in the IP. So, you know, you get a lot of people reading who wouldn't otherwise read uh more an original work, uh, and then you get your their feedback and you get a sense of you know for how to put a story together and how to write, and you get good feedback, and you know, you can iterate, and but but people are there because you know they're interested in the IP already. So I mean, I think it's really useful for baby writers.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and some of them some of the fans, the Valentine fans did start out as fan fiction readers. You know, I would say, hey, I I did this. Come look.
SPEAKER_03Brought them over. Yeah, you converted them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but they like it for the same reason they they liked heart to heart, right? It's yeah, this losing couple who, you know, stumble over dead buddies and tumble into bed.
unknownThat's perfect.
SPEAKER_03So Dead But Not Forgotten has arcs and pre-orders available now. Um, I've been enjoying the series. I'm still working my way through earlier books, as you know. Um, can you tell our listeners a little bit about this particular book and how Tess and Jack got here to this point?
SPEAKER_00This was actually a story um I didn't poach, but there was an idea of um amnesia and testing the marriage. And in particular, what if, in this case it's Jack his amnesia, isn't it, you know, begins to question kind of like you know, I'm hearing all this about me, but I I don't, it doesn't resonate with me. And I don't think I can live up to that, I don't want to live up to that person, or I don't feel like I could live up to that person. And just how that would would challenge the marriage. And of course, at this point in the series, it's a year in for book one, where we're one year later. Tess has had to has had the most challenge in terms of learning to trust. So in this story, Jack has amnesia and he's being accused of murder, and the person he's accused of murdering, he's also accused of having an affair with. So everything that would freak Tess out is there. But at this point, and one of the things that was important to me at this point, she knows him. And so she's sort of the one, like, yeah, you know, you would never do this. And and his coming to grips with who is this guy, you know, and and who I'm supposed to be. And one of the challenges I feel like was that he's being told about himself, but some of the things he's being told are true, but can be seen in two different ways. So he can look at it like, well, no, I was a bad person to have done this, right? So in some ways, it allows them. You have what I think a lot of people use amnesia for, is like, well, let's go back and rebuild this relationship thing. But I didn't want it to be just that. I wanted it to push against, okay, Tess could retreat, but also what would it be like not to have your memory? There's a line in it where Tess is sort of wondering, is it like just black? You know, like there's just a void, or is it murky? Like, what is there? And what would that be like for somebody to be told this is your life? You are a a highly successful entrepreneur and you're this, you know, really great guy, and you have this wonderful marriage, and da-da-da-da-da. And he's sort of looking at it like, what? You know, like yeah, like he didn't feel it. Uh, and then finally, the question of what if his memory didn't come back? If our if our love for somebody is tied to our experience with them and he has no experience, where is that love? And one of the things, because I am a romantic, is that the love is actually there, like he senses that there's a connection to her, right? But he just doesn't quite trust it because to me, I wanted that. I love that idea. Like, I don't remember you, but in here, in my heart, my soul, I know I belong to you type of thing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, he has like a sense memory of it in a way, right?
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_03What I like about this idea of doing amnesia is the way that it brings a lot of ideas full circle within your stories, you know, because I'm on the second book right now, and Tess is having to rebuild her life from basically nothing. I mean, she's really in a terrible position. And this is after having had to rebuild it once already. Once before. So she's been stripped down to to you know the nuts and bolts at this point, and she's got Jack there for her, and he believes in her, you know, but also he's being accused of having an affair in this book, and she is sort of like trying to have faith in him and trying to rebuild her life and all of that. So I like the idea that, you know, by the time we get to to Debt Forgotten, you know, she has rebuilt her life and she knows what it's like to have to do that because he's gonna have to rebuild. Uh, and she has faith in him. And this idea of him having an affair is coming back, but she has that that trust in him and doesn't have to question.
SPEAKER_00Right. And in fact, the the incidents that in that second book, that you know, the relationship he had in the second book that's involved in the second book, that that is one of the things that comes back in that book, where they, you know, they're telling him you you had this relationship with this woman, and he and he's looking at it like, well, that's not good. But Tessie's trying to explain to him, and you know, and of course he's having he doesn't really see it and he's having difficulty. And one of her challenges is like, why won't he believe me? Like, why is what everything else is going on, is he not believing her? And but of course, this is all around also that this woman has been murdered. And the murder actually ties in to Jack's history. We we learn, you know, as a child, he his father had been killed when when Jack was about 12. His father, who was a police man, who was killed in the line of duty, and he always thought there was something weird about it, like there was just something odd about it. And so this sort of brings that story also where we find out what actually happened.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah, because it's mentioned in Old Flames Never Die. And I was like, oh, that better come back.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's mentioned several times that his father had been killed, and and this is the story that talks about what happened. And of course, you know, in his quest to find out what happened, he he meets this woman who now he's accused of having an affair with and who ends up dead, and and and he ends up with amnesia because someone's trying to kill him. That's how he that's how he got it, right? He yeah, um, he's in a car accident, but it was sort of set up for him.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. And you know, in in all the previous books, he's so sure of himself and his own perspective. You know, even no matter how much people accuse him, he's very like, nope, I know this to be real, I know this to be true. You know, so it's it's strange to think of him having to deal with other people's narratives about him and having to believe them and sort through that, especially you think of like Deputy Dan telling him about his history. I'm sure he loves that.
SPEAKER_00Well, and of course, Deputy Dan shows up and he and Tess have a familiarity. So again, Jack is wondering like, wait a minute, maybe she's having an affair too, right? No. Yeah, he, you know, so there's a lot of things he has to work through. But the other challenge of that is how do you get the memory back without it being cliche, without boinking him on the head again? Oh, oh, it's all back, you know. So having it, how would it come back? That type of amnesia that he has, because the doctor says, look, it's probably gonna come back. But when and how and how, you know, that could take a while. So that's sort of, you know, he would have dreams and not, is this a real dream, or you know, is this a dream or did this really happen? And so it comes back and sort of these fleeting enough for him to sort of recognize what's going on. Yeah. Um, but even by the end, it's not all back. So that's sort of moving forward, looking at okay, what bits had is he still forgetting?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, that amount of amnesia, that's serious brain damage, you know. And I know that I've read about you know, non-magical, non-sci-fi amnesia before traumatic amnesia. Uh, and I know it comes back out of order, and it comes back kind of traumatically, right? Because you're re-remembering things that you that are just coming upon you suddenly, and that can be really hard on people. So that in and of itself is kind of traumatic. So, I mean, it's gonna be a struggle for him, I would think.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Or Jack.
SPEAKER_00We'll see. The next book takes place like uh Dead but not forgotten takes place in in February, like Deadly Valentine does. Uh the next book will probably be July, it'll probably be their first anniversary. So he'll have a little more time. Yeah, sometime to go through some therapy. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Well, so my adopted mom, Karen, who is hopefully listening right now. Hi, mom. I just love the teaser line for you from your first Valentine mystery, which goes, He tastes like chocolate and sin, but is he a murderer? She immediately wanted to know if you had an audiobook. I know it'll be a bit before your books are in audio, but what do you think about folks in the bookish world insisting that listening to your books wouldn't be as good as reading them?
SPEAKER_00Well, I think it's a different experience, right? I I um when I used to run, I used to listen to audiobooks because it was the best way to distract myself from the horror of running. And I'm a horror of running. And I very specifically chore chose books. I I I listened to a lot of Lauren Blakely because she's she's got a very light book, they're fun, there's good bands. There's also spicy bits, you know, that's a great description. You know, when I'm coming around the corner heading home, but I'm about to hit a spicy bit, I might run an extra quarter mile. Right. Like and so I, you know, I enjoyed, I enjoyed those. She went to a multicast, and I just thought, whoa, this is like a play in my head, right? Like they're very fun. Um, with the thing that so it just sort of depends on how you want to consume them. I feel like I read faster than audiobooks go. And in fact, I know we talked about Jessica over at Peace Love Books, and and one of her the things she does at audiobooks is she she torques that thing up to like three times. They all do that. It's so weird. Like, how do they not sound like chipmunks or something? Like, how do you even get I I don't know. I haven't tried, I mean, I have torqued up for like to one and a half if I'm listening to a like a workshop online or something, but an audiobook, it just feels like it would be weird to me. But I do think I can read faster unless I do that than audiobook. The thing that gets me is when people say that doesn't count for reading. In one way, I was like, well, why does it matter? Like if you're saying that to me, well, that doesn't count. Like, okay, boo on you. Like, you know, like if I'm reading for entertainment or I'm listening for an like, what's the point? Right? Like, I mean, why are you saying that to me? But I also recently was seeing that there was research where they were looking at brain, your brain, when you're listening versus reading, and they're like, there's not a whole lot of difference that you know, the the parts that are lighting up in terms of taking in information or processing and all that kind of is the same. Yeah. And of course, we know that audio is if you have like if you had a learning disability or a processing disability, yeah, like my mom. That is one way, you know, you sort of make an accommodation. Yeah. Okay, we're gonna you're gonna listen instead of having to read. Or I mean, there's all it's an accommodation in many ways.
SPEAKER_03So really helpful for people with dyslexia, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I have another series that went to audiobook, and I will I I did enjoy listening to them, and I enjoyed the interpretation the the narrator had because sometimes the narrator would read it not in the way I wrote it.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah, that's a little weird.
SPEAKER_00And it wasn't bad, it it wasn't wrong, it was just different. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03The way I've I've uh come to understand this is that it's a virtue argument enrobed in a semantic argument, right? Because I I think I like the word reading, I guess, means to take a book and look at the words on the page and to interpret those linguistically. Like that's what that word means. Fine, all right. And then we've we've associated a lot of virtue with the act of doing that, right? Is it good for you as a young person to get good at that and do it quickly? Sure. You know, I think that you should get practice with that skill, it's an important skill. I personally don't process auditory information very well, you know. So I remember in my the the year before my reading year, one of the people up in the cohort above me was actually listening to a lot of the books on his reading list because he processed in an auditory way. And I thought that was fantastic and he recommended it to me, but I ended up not being able to process a lot of the information in an auditory manner and had to do all of it with my eyes. And you know, but when they look at people's brain scans, they're seeing that when you listen to a story or when you read a story, you are processing the story basically the same way. You are processing it linguistically. There's there isn't a big difference. So, you know, it they're basically the same thing. Is it reading? I guess it's not looking at words on a page, but you're still processing the story. Is it easy to tune out while you're listening to an audiobook? Yes, but I also tune out when I'm reading stories on a page, you know. I've I've done that, I've gone a whole page and then realize that I need to go back and reread. What's I was daydreaming?
SPEAKER_00Exactly.
SPEAKER_03So there's no difference there either. And and one of the nice things is that with AI reading tools, actually, like my friend Ryan has been able to read some of the things that I've written by having an AI voice read it to him because he just doesn't process information by reading it quite as well as hearing it. Uh, and I think that's wonderful. You know, I don't know why people argue about this other than having to have a virtue argument of like, well, if you're listening to it, it's not the same as reading. So you're not as virtuous as me because reading is so virtuous, you know.
SPEAKER_00And we we've talked about that whole debate about if you're reading romance, you're, you know, reading slop versus if you're reading classic literature. So I wonder what their thought is like, well, what if I listen to Jane Austen on audio? Is that you know, like, is that bad too or not reading, uh, even though I'm hearing classic literature? And for a lot of people who struggle with literature from the you know, 18th and 19th century, maybe listening to it, you know, will help them understand it, you know.
SPEAKER_03Students ask me that if they could listen to an audiobook of The Hobbit when I taught a high fantasy, and I told them yes. You process that book in whatever way works for your brain. I don't care. I mean, don't watch the movie instead. That's different. That's not the words from the book, right? But if whatever, however way you want to get that book into your brain, go for it, you know, if whatever works for you. I didn't see a difference between the two things at all. I mean, I had students who are who are ESL and it was easier for them to listen and process it that way, or or it was harder, it just depended on who they were. Yeah. I don't know why people are so strange about this. I mean, I'm a teacher of literature here, and I said it was fine. If I say it's fine, it's fine.
SPEAKER_00It's fine. Yeah. But the other side of that is why are you reading what you're reading? And if the whole point is just to be entertained, it's a fun hobby I have. Who are you to tell me that listening to it versus reading it is like, you know, it's it's more something on them deciding to judge judge somebody for having listened to a book versus and think of all the people like are you gonna say that to a blind person? Like, well, you're not really reading because you're you know, because you're listening, because that's no, they wouldn't do that, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, exactly. Like, if yeah, if you wouldn't say this to a blind person, then why are you saying it at all? You wouldn't say this to a dyslexic person, why are you saying it? You know, it's it's ridiculous. I just think people want their hobby to feel virtuous. I think that that's part of it, you know. And I'm reading and listening to audiobooks is very virtuous, kids. Keep doing it, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And sometimes you do both. I mean, I I know that I was reading a Kennedy Ryan book and I started it, and then we were flying somewhere, and I don't know, for some reason I didn't want to read on the the plane. So I had Spotify. So when we were in a place I could, you know, access it, I downloaded it on Spotify. And so then on the next leg of the flight, I listened to it, right? And then when I got to where we were going, I figured out where I was and opened the book. Like I did both, right?
SPEAKER_03You know, this is a point that Elizabeth Wheatley made that most of human history has been oral storytelling. Most most of human history, people have listened to stories, or they have listened to people read from a book in a room where you'd only have one copy of the book, and it would, you know, you'd have like Pamela serializing in the 18th century, and all the servants would gather around the family upstairs and they would have the new serial of Pamela and they would all listen to it. And it was a community experience. If you listen to a book with other people, you can ooh in awe like you're watching a movie. And it's really fun and exciting. Like even though I don't process information as well that way, I still enjoy that experience with a friend. Elaine and I used to, you know, clean up her library. Like she used to work at a couple of kids' libraries at uh elementary schools, and during the cleanup at the end of the year, we would put on audiobooks and listen, or we listen to radio plays, and we would be like, Oh, oh, I can't believe he said that with each other. It was a fun experience. And if you haven't done that, you're missing out. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And alongside all the other things, you can do it while doing something else, right? My daughter listens to mini audiobooks while she's driving to work, you know. So I don't know. Boo on the people who diss on audiobooks is not counting as reading.
SPEAKER_03Basically, it is definitely linguistic processing. If that's the word we need, if you won't want to call it reading, you're still thrusting story, and that's perfectly fine. Yeah. Yeah. All right. The best part of the show, Bridgerton season four has rocked everyone's screens lately. As of this recording, only the first half of the episodes have dropped. Uh, and I've seen it three times by now. Jenna, how did you like it? What did you think?
SPEAKER_00I you know what's funny. Well, first of all, I want to share a peeve is that why do they drop this in two different chunks? Oh, I haven't understand the business behind Netflix dropping four episodes at the end of January and four episodes at the end of February.
SPEAKER_03I mean, there must be they're trying to have it both ways. They're trying to have it be bingeable, which is what people like about Netflix, yeah, and also be in the zeitgeist for longer than a couple of weeks.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I don't know. Maybe okay. It's irritating to me, right? Because I watched them all in one day, right? I got up and watched one, I watched one at lunch, I went, yeah. I was a little concerned because I did have some disappointment at season three. I just felt like Colin and Penelope didn't get enough time. They had too many story, other stories going that just didn't interest me. I didn't care as much. I wanted, I wanted them. This time around, I feel like they've managed that better so far, right? That you know, we have a good good amount, and you know, it is fun to see Violet, you know, all these years after being a widow, finding love again. I I it the romantic in me struggles a little bit because I am that one true love person. So I feel bad for for Edward? Is that her husband's name? Oh I think it was Edward, something like that. Anyway, um, but uh, you know, I'll get over that.
SPEAKER_03Um has gone viral this season. That that image of her in the in her like boustier thing in her chamber, that has gone viral. Like people are into that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And I might, you know, how old is she? Like she was probably 18 or something when she had Anthony, and he's well, in the books, the ages are kind of different, so I don't know how old he's supposed to be here, actually. Because I know, for example, Benedict is in his 30s in the books, right? So anyway, I uh so I've I've enjoyed it so far. The changes they've made I thought were good in a lot of ways. It and here this goes to another thing we we've talked about in writing groups about the prologue. This book has a prologue, okay. This that prologue is not in the story, and the story is still working because the information we need to know about Sophie is woven in. Yeah, we saw we see the flashback of her as a child and that she had a father who you know was was of the aristocracy. Anyway, so in my mind, I'm like, see, you did a prologue. Uh but anyways, I I have enjoyed it. I do have a question of of this that that also ties into my questions around Jane Eyre as well. But first I want to hear your your your thoughts on it.
SPEAKER_03Oh my goodness. I'm loving the Cinderella story. I didn't think I would like it, to be honest with you. Benedict has been such a cad. He's been with so many people. I really liked the lady he was with, and with the threesome last season, I was like, oh, that could be fun. You know, like I want to explore that. But I am actually, I'm constantly impressed by Bridgerton's ability to bring me around on a couple or on a romance. You know, I'll be like, oh, yeah, I'm not really into that. But by the time we get to their season, I'm into it. God damn it. Every single time. And I don't know how they do it, but I really like Sophie. I mean, I can't believe we've got freaking Cho Chang as the evil stepmother. That I wasn't expecting. Um, that Cho Chang, who is around my age from the Harry Potter series, is the evil stepmother now, makes me feel so old. I don't know what to make of that. I'm loving Posey. I would like to institute the Posey fan club right now with me as a president. I love her. I want her to have her own season with her own romance. Yeah. She's the best.
SPEAKER_00If they do it right, I think you'll be happy with Posey. And then the epilogue, the epilogue involves Posey in the book, um, which which is nice. Yeah. I for Ben, for example, in Anthony's season, or um, he does have a mistress. And and when we first see them, he's sort of like, I'll take care of you. And then there's the scene where the mom's calling him out.
SPEAKER_03All of that.
SPEAKER_00And and he goes and he leaves the mistress. That's bad, right? Because we know back then. Now she was an actress, so maybe she's, you know, maybe it's not horrible financially for her, but still he reneged. I see Benedict a little bit different because particularly in the books, you get a sense of he he he's always called the second. Like a lot of times people they know he's a Bridgerton, they don't know which one he is. He's the second one. You're the second one, right? So that goes to his identity. You know, he's the spare sort of thing. Um, and we see in the show he's searching for a fulfillment. And I think that's why he does all these crazy things, right? Like he does this art to fulfill them, and then when he discovers Anthony paid his way into school, this was in the show, it broke him a little bit, right? And he left. So I and and all the these affairs and things he has, it's not like Anthony, which he's like, you know, I'm gonna take care of you. Like all these women he's been with have been independently successful. So he's never promised anything, right? So I I'm I'm I have less concern about that for him as he moves in to being with Sophie. My question that is always makes me if I could have dinner with Charlotte Bronte, sort of the same thing, is one of the things that is set up with Sophie is that her father is the aristocracy.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, he's an earl. Her father was an earl, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and her mom had been a maid. And that was problematic because you know, stepmommy makes her a maid and all this kind of stuff, and that's what they see her as, and da-da-da-da-da. But you know, even without reading the book, you know that the fact that her father was an earl is going to help.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah, no, of course. Yeah, and I'm seeing like, what do you mean? You were her father, this was her father's ward, and the mother isn't going to uh uphold that. Like, that should destroy her in society. If anyone found out that she took her husband's ward and made her a maid, she would be completely destroyed. Like, that's the history right there. That's right.
SPEAKER_00Now she's an illegitimate child still, and she has been working in a maid, but yeah, so there's still that factor that would be like, I don't know if Benedict should make like in those days, I don't think they could be together, but I think it helps in the end for them to be together. So the question is sort of like, what if she what if she were just a maid? Right? Like, what if she didn't have you know this special blood flowing through her? Now, these, of course, were written more recently, so I don't know Julia Quinn's thinking. Maybe she was thinking I have to do that because otherwise, you know, she has to have that, otherwise it would never work. But it but it brings me back to Jane Eyre because I've always wondered what if Jane comes back to Rochester and and now she has her own money, right? She has her own money, she's independent. What if Bertha was still up in the attic?
SPEAKER_03Well, that would be big of me.
SPEAKER_00Well, they would no, they couldn't get married, but would they be together? Like he asked her before she leaves. Remember? Love you, will you stay with me? Basically the same thing. Will you be my mistress?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And of course, she couldn't do it the first time around because if that didn't work out, she's you know, she's gonna be in trouble, right? But now she doesn't she doesn't need anybody to take care of her. So my my big question was, what if? And of course, back then she, you know, probably couldn't do it, but well, have you ever read have you read Pamela by Samu Richardson?
SPEAKER_03It was from the 1740s, and I I would call it the original romance novel of you know, of the form that we recognize today. And it is a Cinderella story, and it was incredibly popular. It was a it was a media event before media events were a thing. They had cups and saucers and teapots with Pamela on it. When Pamela got married, people went and rang the church bells. It was an obsession. It was the Bridgerton of its time. And Pamela is a servant, not a daughter of an earl, not a secret aristocrat, not an illegitimate child, an actual servant. She actually speaks like a servant. Her parents are cotters. She is a servant and she marries Mr. B. And people loved it. They ate it up. It was so it was a wonderful Cinderella story. It's totally possible for an aristocrat to marry whoever the hell they want. It was there's no law saying you can't do it. It's just frowned upon. What I love about Samuel Richardson is he wrote a sequel, and he wrote a whole portion of Pamela after the marriage showing the nightmare of this scenario once they're married. Like it's not fun. Like her her sister-in-law is a nightmare. Everyone in society are jerks. Mr. B is a bit of a rapey jerk just from the get-go. So even though he's a reformed rake, he's still kind of a jerk. But he still is kind of transformed by Pamela's presence in his life. It's completely acceptable for like Benedict to marry Sophie. She is a daughter of an earl, illegitimate, and he recognized her as his ward. Completely fine. Now, is it a problem in society? Sure. But he doesn't need money, he doesn't need anything. He's a Bridgerton. Yeah. He's not even the first. He can do whatever he wants.
SPEAKER_00That's right. That's right. Yeah. I just I thought it was, I was trying to figure out if that was sort of the gimmick to make it easier to work. I think so. Yeah. Uh I don't know. Because I don't think these were written what in the early 2000s, late 90s. I can't remember.
SPEAKER_03Um I think we have stronger ideas of what was acceptable, like legally. Like I think we have an idea that it was illegal for a servant to marry. But I think that it's good that she's a daughter of an earl because it gives her a sense of agency instead of I'm always uncomfortable reading Pamela because she's 15 and a servant, and I don't really feel like you can consent in that situation. So it resolves a modern discomfort of an inequality. Right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. But you know, think of pride and prejudice, right? When Lady Catherine comes and like, you know, or the halls of Pimberley to be thus polluted, or whatever she says, you know, like if if Darcy marries Elizabeth, and Elizabeth, you know, she's just yeah, she's not a servant.
SPEAKER_03Her family like her family acts in a classless way. Her her mother behaves inappropriately. And that's the thing that he points out that like his her mother is embarrassing. Her her sisters are embarrassing. All of the sisters are out at the same time. Who does that? You know, like all of that feels it's like white trash to him. Like that's basically what he's saying. You're white trash. That's our understanding in America. Um, but also this 18th century, you remember have to remember Pride and Prejudice is like 1790s kind of era. Right. 18th century is a time of great transformation in in British society. And there's just this this number of landowners who are making just insane amounts of money. Insane. They've got they've got plantations out in the colonies, you know, they've got investments, um, they're starting to invest in in an industry, and they're making a lot of money. So you have people like Darcy whose rents are coming in and they have these amazing estates that they're all building. The 18th century is a time of these estates getting built. So you are seeing the gentry starting to widen. Like there's this large group of people and people from the merchant class coming into the gentry, new money versus old money, and that's happening into the Victorian period as well. And all these new class distinctions are starting to pop up, and the middle class is becoming a real thing, a professional middle class. And it's getting bigger and bigger and bigger, and it's getting hard to figure out who's gentry, who's middle class, you know, who's of the middling sort because of all the money flowing into the society at the time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I just gave a history lecture. I'm so sorry.
SPEAKER_00Well, you see it in Gilded Age too, right? Yeah. The new money versus and the old money don't want the new money, you know. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Because American class is in the Gilded Age decided by money. Yeah. The big change happens when the the the like the I think that you know, we start getting like the carnes, they become our our royalty in the United States because of how much money and power they possess. Yeah. All right. Sorry. History, history lecture has happened. Book recommendations. What are you reading right now, Jenna?
SPEAKER_00Uh well, I just finished the book. Uh, I have to think of the title here. It's uh The Time I Got Drunk and Saved a Demon. I just finished that. And I have my sister gave me some books the other day. I got so many books on my shelf, but I decided I wanted to read the next JD Robb book, which I think is stolen in death. I'm like really behind. I I'm I'm I must be five books behind on the in death books, but this is stolen in death. Something is like a jewel is stolen. And Rourke used to be a thief when he was young in his younger days. So he knows a little something about that. So whenever Rourke, whenever I think Rourke is gonna be more involved in the story, I'm very excited about it. Because I just again sleuthing couple.
SPEAKER_03Awesome. I feel like I keep getting JD Rob recommended to me and I need to go read some JD Rob. It's like coming up on my feed.
SPEAKER_00I enjoy it. That first one, Naked in Death, I really, really enjoyed. Uh, and that sets up a lot of things that you see through. I mean, there's gotta be 60 books now. There's so many. At some point through the middle, you're sort of like, okay, I feel like I've read this already. I have a hard time keeping them all straight, and yet I always go back because I want to see them all. I want to, you know. So you say 60 books. There must be 60 books. 60? I know there's over 50. I know there's over 50. Wait, we're the same couple. Same couple. Holy crap. And there's only, you know, maybe in all this time, maybe only four years have passed or something. Like each book is only a couple months after the last book.
SPEAKER_03Oh my god. Yeah. Wow.
SPEAKER_00And some that really, I mean, Eve, Eve in particular has had a terrible, traumatic childhood, and a horrible incident happened to her. So, like trigger warning all the way around her history. And even Rourke had a really bad, bad history. But I enjoyed that. What's fun about them is they both had these terrible histories, how they come out of it. You know, she goes into law because she wants, she likes those set rules and the black and the white, and the, you know, bad people are gonna go down. She's kick-ass. She's um she doesn't care about social stuff very much. And a long time, a lot of time, you know, when they're married, she'll ask people about the marriage rules. What am I supposed to be doing here? Time like she just so those are kind of new to her. Rourke came out of a terrible childhood and he went into a life of crime for a long time. But by the time we meet him, he's a bazillionaire, he's he's legit mostly, and you know, and this things that aren't legit, he does for fun. But when he meets Eve and discovers how she is, he gets out of it because he wants to be with her and he knows he can't be with her. Um, she's very black and white, he's happy to live in the gray. So it's funny to, you know, it's to see how they maneuver through that. He is smitten right away, and he's willing to jump in. And, you know, she's just sort of like, wait, wait, wait, wait. Anyways, I I very much enjoy them. And of course, by the third book, they get married. So these other 59, whatever number of books left, you know, a lot of times they're navigating things, you know, she's learning the marriage rules and things like that. Sometimes they travel, they go to Ireland, she meets his family in Ireland. She doesn't like to fly, uh, and she's afraid of cows, so she doesn't like going to farms or anything. She's afraid of cows, cows? Like if they go somewhere and there's cows, she doesn't like it. So there's funny elements, anyways. I just really enjoy it. But whenever I have a sense that he is going, he's often her, they bring him on as like a consultant. So when I when I feel like he's gonna be more involved, I love it because I just love watching them work together.
SPEAKER_03That's great.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03She can't believe she's afraid of cows. That's amazing.
SPEAKER_00It is, it's hilarious when they go. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Is there like an origin story to why she's afraid of cows?
SPEAKER_00I don't know. You know, she's just a I don't, I don't remember an origin story. She's, you know, she's a city girl. Uh New York. Her her her partner is a free ager, which basically means she grew up like on a hippie compound. And and she's uh Peabody is a very different, but they very different person, but they still work together well, you know. Um, but that wouldn't have to do with the cows. But she grew up like in the Midwest somewhere, and so I can't remember where the cow thing came about. But yeah, if they're in the country, she don't like it. She's like, give me the city, and it takes place in the future. Well, at the time she was writing in the 1990s, these books start like in 2048 or 2052, something like that. Oh, near future, cool, which is not so far in the future now and wasn't even that far in the future, but the and so you recog you recognize the world in some ways, but in other ways you don't. Like they do have off-planet type colonies type things, uh, they have some technology that you know we don't have. They there was a large war that has sort of changed the world in some ways, uh, but before the urban wars. Um, anyways, so you do get a little bit of futuristic without it feeling sci-fi.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I yeah, I like near future stuff. I mean, sci-fi, you know, Starship Valkyrie is kind of near future, it's 130 years in the future, so but there's you know, there's a lot of space travel and stuff. But I do like seeing and then thinking about like changes on the face of the planet and like and stuff like that. So it seems like something I might want to read. Does she use it for interesting murder plots like strange technology?
SPEAKER_00Well, in the first book, what's interesting is the the victim is shot, and they don't have there are guns, but only for the collectors. So there aren't guns on the street, like people are still killing because you know they do, but so she's sort of fascinated by the wound this gun makes, and she has a mentor, Feeney, uh, who is old enough to remember the time when that, you know, um, and so that's interesting to look at in terms of um so yeah, sometimes, but a lot of times it's you know, the same some of it is like serial killer or demented killer, some of it's that, some of it is just regular old somebody stabbing somebody or poisoning somebody, or you know, I mean, a lot, a lot of that's the same. They have there are things that are different, for example, in terms like prostitution is legal, they're called legal licensed companions, so they're licensed and all these things they have to do. So there's social, some social changes, and yet um there's still, you know, you're still gonna have you know racism and classism, and you know, all those things still exist. Yep, even in the yeah. So I I enjoy them. I enjoy it.
SPEAKER_03That sounds great. Yeah, I might have to read that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, her best friend is a grifter that she once addressed, you know, who's not a grifter anymore, but yeah, her best friend, but yeah, it's it they're fun. I enjoy them.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think it would be interesting having a murder mystery with a gun with no ballistics experts anymore.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and that you know, that was so long ago I read that one that I don't know how they do it. But you know, Feeney was like, Oh yeah, that's what it looked like. Everybody's like, look at that, you know. Um and that one actually had a political bent to it too, because she was like the granddaughter of a senator or something. Yeah, cool.
SPEAKER_03I love that. Sounds like a good time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's doing everything.
SPEAKER_03All right. Well, I I really appreciate you being our our highlight this week, Jenna. It was really fun.
SPEAKER_00Well, thank you for letting me yammer on about all my stuff.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I mean, we're gonna have to have a whole Bridgerton episode in the future. People comment if you want a Bridgerton episode or just the two of us talking about Bridgerton and history for an hour. Let us know. Well, we are Tender and Tempting Tales. This has been illicit liaisons, so you can find us on Substack. That's Tender and Tending Tales on Substack. We've got lots of really great articles, some written here by Jenna about romance, romantic suspense. You we also have our anthologies. So Tender and Tendy Tales anthologies, Midnight, Mischief, and Mistletoe, which came out in November, and Moonlight and Margaritas, which came out last June. You can find those on Amazon. They are Kindle Unlimited, so you can go read those if you have that. We also have a freebie story that's It's About Damn Time by Jenna Hart. You can join our email list to get that for free. And of course, we'll have all of Jenna's information, her website and everything in the show notes. Thank you so much. Jenna, do you want to lead us out?
SPEAKER_00Thank you for listening. Be sure to subscribe or follow or wherever you're watching or listening. And uh until next time, peace, love, and happily ever after.