Illicit Liaisons: Hockey Romance & Why Choose with author Aubree Valentine

This week, our guest host is romance author Aubree Valentine where we discuss Heated Rivalry, hockey romance, the why-choose trope, and more.

LINKS TO AUBREE VALENTINE

Aubree's website: https://authoraubreevalentine.com/

Aubree's social links: https://authoraubreevalentine.com/social/

Aubree's author's page: https://amzn.to/4bglzHF

Pucking Tangled: https://amzn.to/4uwdaY0

Christmas at Mistletoe Bay: https://amzn.to/4bgBWnz

Saving Sadie (Police and Fire: Operation Alpha - Susan Stoker-verse): https://amzn.to/4dpM2nh

BOOKS MENTIONED ON THE SHOW

Heated Rivalry by Rachel Ried(Game Changers Series): https://amzn.to/3NnhS9W

Moonlight & Margaritas: https://amzn.to/4cXLa9z (Aubree's story - More Than a Margarita)

Sweetest Lie (Duet) by Gwyn McNamee: https://amzn.to/47AvGVg

Lady Tremaine by Rachel Hochhauser https://amzn.to/473UrZM

With This Ring, I Thee Kill by Jenna Harte: https://amzn.to/4lC10J8

TENDER & TEMPTING TALES

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Tender and Tempting Tales on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tendertemptingtales/

ILLICIT LIAISONS PRODUCED & HOSTED BY

Tara Leederman: https://taleederman.substack.com/

Jenna Harte: https://jennaharte.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Romance readers, welcome to illicit liaisons with Tender and Tempting Tales, where each week we discuss the good, the bad, and the naughty of romance fiction. I am Jenna Hart. I'm a romance author of the Southern Heat Contemporary Romance series and the sexy Valentine Mysteries, as well as the managing editor of Tender and Tempting Tales, a steamy romance anthology for readers who like quickies. Today, our co-host is Aubrey Valentine, a hopeless romantic at heart. Aubrey channels her imagination and appreciation for the complexities of romance into all of her books. She enjoys exploring flawed characters, taking readers on journeys filled with chemistry and emotional twists. And when she's not pinning her next novel, which she's actually doing right now, Aubrey can be found binge reading or spending quality time with her family and her fur babies. Now you can learn more about Aubrey at her website, authoraubreyvalentine.com. You will find links to Aubrey's website and all the books that we mentioned and anything else on the show will be in our show notes. And I do have to mention that Aubrey did have a story in Moonlight and Margaritas, which I know you're gonna want to check out because that's a beachy one. And if you're in the frozen tundra of the east, it's a good one to check out. Aubrey, thank you so much for being with me today. Thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited. Well, normally I have another co-host, Tara, who unfortunately, because of a challenge of my own, isn't here at the moment. So we don't have her introduction, but she and I always like to start the show talking about some sort of bookish drama or take or just things that are going on, and knowing that you have a hockey romance coming out here eventually, and knowing that heated rivalry is like the big thing being talked about now, almost in ways where people are kind of shocked about it. So um, I'm just curious if you uh either watched it or maybe you read the books and what your thoughts are on it.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

So I have not read the books yet. I have watched the series more than once. Um and apparently more than once. Apparently, yes, apparently we call that reheating. I love it. Or going back to the cottage. But yes, uh, I have watched it a couple of times. Um, and I mean, first of all, Rachel Reed, if if the books are anything at all like the show, amazing storytelling. Um, I absolutely love how she brought these characters to life and how she didn't stry away from shy away from the the taboo-ness, which it really shouldn't be taboo in in my opinion, but the complexities that come along with these two players obviously being gay in a male-dominated sport where they they just don't talk about it. It's you don't publicly announce that you're gay, and not just one character or two characters, but several of them. Um and it was it's there were episodes where I cried. Um there was just a lot of really, really good um character development, and the producer did an amazing job with that too. And it's one of those things where rising tides, rise all ships, or whatever the phrase is, it certainly helped other hockey romance authors, especially in the um LGBTQ genre, to find their voice too. And it's so it's been an amazing journey to watch.

SPEAKER_03 3:29

Yeah, I I think it's really interesting to have a sport, especially like hockey, because we have all the male stereotypes in something like hockey where they're beating each other up even more than like on football, right? A lot of fights, a lot of ramming them into the side. And and so to have men who are gay in it, and of course, throughout history, that was hidden, right? It was hidden in Hollywood, it's hidden in sports. I mean, it was hidden everywhere. And so to have it out. My understanding is that I'm not quite sure what their role is on the show in terms of producer or having adapted the books or whatever, but he he is a gay man. So I think in some ways, was sort of able to sort of out overlap his reality on it. Um because I do think sometimes people question can a woman write this, but I'm sort of like if a if if any writer out there can only write what they know, it's it's gonna be difficult, right? I mean, I know men and there are men in my books, right? Uh but I'm not a man. So, and and what I find really interesting um is that these are things that are being still being highly consumed by women.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 4:49

So uh it just shows the romance genre, which is often poo-pooed because it's women writing about women or whatever. Well, here they are writing about men, and women are still fascinated. I mean, romance readers just want to read a lot of good stories about all sorts of different things taking place in different places, different times, different worlds. Yeah, which is really nice.

SPEAKER_01 5:10

I think that I think heated rivalry also gave men a little bit more of a voice too to come forward and say, hey, like number one, we'd love to read romance, or like this show is amazing, or just it gave them the courage to speak out and be their authentic selves, especially at least from what I'm seeing, mostly over on threads. Um, there's a whole collective group of men in the fandom who are like, this is amazing. And um in a lot of the interviews with the actors and stuff like that, they have said they've had people reach out to them and tell them, you know, thank you so much for taking on this role. It gave me the courage to come out, it gave me the courage to do this and this. And and I do think, if I'm not mistaken, there was actually a hockey player who came out shortly after the show because of he was, I don't have to hide anymore. Um, so it's definitely it's had a huge impact. And I know that there are a lot of men who have enjoyed it and a lot of men who have also like authors who have found their voice and and said, Okay, you know what, I'm gonna write my authentic self too now.

SPEAKER_03 6:18

So yeah. I I have to tell you, my mom is 80, and my mom doesn't like to read romance, not at all. She's a mystery person, she loves it, but she will watch TV, like she watched Bridgerton, you know, she she watches all that. Um she watched Red, White, and World Blue and really liked it. So I was telling, and so we talk a lot about adaptations. So I'll tell her this is from a book because there's a lot of them now. Absolutely, yeah. She just watched the was it, the people we meet on vacation. She watched like she won't read it, but she enjoys watching it, which is weird. So I was telling her about heated rivalry, and I had started watching it. And my only warning to her was that in the beginning, well, there's a lot of time jumps, which can sometimes be consuming. And I said, but but it in the beginning, it just seems like a lot of hookups. And I was just a little mom's 80. I don't know how she'll have that, right? Um, and then I was talking to her, she goes, Well, I checked out that heated rivalry. And I was like, Okay, here we go. And she's and she did sort of say, Well, there's the time jumps, and then it was just sort of like, What are they doing? and but she binged the whole thing and she said, get to the end, well, it's like it's really nice. Yeah. So I was like, because I was struggling the first few episodes because I really was struggling to like Ilia. Yes. Um, I just was, I I mean, I could understand knowing where he was coming from. I could see his horrible father and his brother was using him. And but I was like, you are just a jerk. And even the the other guy, Hollater, is like, you're a jerk. And then I'm like, so why are you there? Right. Because you're right, he's being a jerk. So for me, that was sort of the struggle.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

Yeah. And I think that can be a real testament to the author, too. If you can take a character and redeem him, and and I know that like during the episode where like um where Shane's parents find out about them, and he's sitting there and he like puts his arm around him and he's like, Your boyfriend's here, it's all okay. And I'm like, Oh, the cutest thing ever. But how you were speaking about your mom and her age. So my my grandmother is in her 80s, she has read every book that I've ever published. Um, and so Pucking Forever, which was aside from the Christmas ones, would be my last release that for last year. Um that one or Pucking Tangled, sorry, I'm working on Pucking Forever. Pucking Tangled was a why choose. Um, and that's not the first one that I've written. I do have another book where the two characters, it's a gay couple, and that one was a duet. The first book was there, they were twin brothers, and they kind of did not necessarily a parent trap, but they switched places for a little bit, and that's how they ended up finding their true love. So the first book was about the one brother who is straight. And I had dropped some hints in that book because I wanted people, like I had this clear vision that the twin brother is gay, and I knew that from the get-go. And I dropped some hints because I didn't want readers to be surprised, you know. And so I said to my grandmom, I'm like, let me know. And she's like, I think I know what you were putting down, but I'm not gonna say nothing because I don't want to see your face, like, I don't want your reaction, I want to go into the next book blind and see if I was right. I was like, okay. And she was like, I knew it, I knew it. And I was like, all right, and I was like, and she was like, it was really good. And I'm like, okay, good. Um, so then when I did this why choose one, she goes, I do have one question. And so, and when she asked me this, it was actually release day. I went down to Maryland where she lives to play bingo with her on a Tuesday night, Thursday night, Thursday night, on a Thursday night. Um, and we're sitting in bingo, and so there's all these people her age. And she says to me, I do have one question though. How exactly did you figure all of that out? Because again, it's four guys and one girl. And yes, the guys were the boyfriends were boyfriends too. And I and a lot of times, um, especially the longer that I've written, I have a hard time separating my pen name from like who I am as a person. And I always tell everybody, my pen name is authentically me with no filter. Um, real life me, if you know me, is a little bit more reserved, a little bit more shy. But with Aubrey, I get to be who I authentically want to be. It's like putting on a costume almost. And so without thinking, I looked at her and I was like, Well, it's really not any difference. It was just a couple more holes and a couple more poles. And my mom is there, and my mom's eyes go wide. And my grandmother was like, What did you say? And my mom goes, Don't make her repeat that. She says, No, I think I heard her, but I wanted to repeat it. So I did. And she was like, That's what I thought you said. And my mom goes, Yeah, but like, how did you figure it all out? And I was like, Well, I mean, she's like, she goes, How did you figure out the um and I'm like, mom, just say it. And she's like, the hockey parts. I was like, that's not what you're asking. And she's like, No. And I so I was like, I mean, the same way I figured out the hockey parts, I watched some hockey and she's like, Yeah, yeah. But they read that. My grandmother said she was like, that was a little bit too much for me. There is just too much to keep track of. She was like, it was good, but and I was like, that's fine. You don't have to love everything that I write. It's sweet that you read it. Um, and I'm like, I know that not everything that I write is gonna be your cup of tea, but she's she's very supportive and it's adorable because she was like, Yeah, that one, that one was a bit much.

SPEAKER_03 11:45

Yeah, yeah, yeah. My mom will read my sister and I both are writing romance, and and uh generally she'll read it, but often she'll skip the the spicy bits, you know. She's just not into that, which is weird because she'll watch it on the TV, right?

SPEAKER_01 12:00

Right. I tell people, like I told my godmother, I was like, You're more than welcome to read them. Just Aubrey wrote that, not your goddaughter. Just think of it that way. And I was like, and we don't and we don't talk about this at Thanksgiving. And yeah, but I'm like, I am who I am, and it this is what it is, and it's what I write, and it works. So so there, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:21

Um now you are putting your finishing touches on pucking forever, which does have the Y choose trope. Um, and it seems to be growing. I mean, it used to be called something else, but I guess it was determined that that had some negative connotations. Yeah, negative. So now we have Y choose, which is basically usually a woman and two or more men, right? Yes. This was Tara's question because lineals and zoomers have less conventional relationship structures and the increasing prevalence of polyamyl mory in the younger people. Not yes. So she was asking that she'd seen a number of permutations of this trope and its implementation and was wondering if you could tell us more about how you're using it in pucking forever.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

Sure. So in pucking forever, um it starts out honestly. There are two men who are in a relationship together. Again, they're both hockey players, they play on the same team. He's the veteran, or one of them is the veteran, the other one is the rookie on the team, and so like they're kind of he's mentoring him. And um it the funny thing is, I started writing this right after I wrote Pucking Tangled, which was which came out in September. Um so I had already had this Russian character, which I mean is not uncommon in hockey romance anyway. Like a lot of hockey players are Russian. So um Alec is Russian and he's like, I this is like strictly forbidden in Russia. Like if if they knew and they fall in love, and um but Troy, the other male main character, he is by and he believes that you love who you love, and that it's not always linear or what have you, that sometimes it looks like loving more than one person. And of course, his friends on the team, um the four guys from book one, they're all on the same team. When they got married, he kind of realized, hey, wait a minute, like I could have this too. Like, I don't have to define myself, I don't have to put myself in a box. Um, and so a woman comes into the picture and um they navigate that. And for me, at least right now, um, pucking tangled and pucking forever both end in polyamory, um, where the boyfriends are boyfriends and like they're all together, they're all in love, they're all in a relationship. Um and I think that's important for me, just because again, I'm a hopeless romantic and I don't and to me, to me personally, this is not to say that this is the be all end all, but to me personally, I feel like that's the purpose of why choose. Why do I have to choose to just love one person? Um, and that's not to say, I mean, I have read plenty of why chooses where the men are solely solely focused on the women, there's no other, like there's no boyfriends or boyfriends in that situation, and they're great. Um, but for me, it's I like that unity and that kind of end game of they're all happily ever after. Um, and that's not to say that people in relationships like that, that if they're in a relationship where they're not all together, that it's not a happily ever after. Um, because I've seen a few couples that like the woman might have a boyfriend and the guy has a girlfriend, and they're not the four of them are not together kind of thing. And that's fine. To me, ultimately, love is love, and I just want to be able to showcase that. Um so yeah, that's that's kind of how I use it is right now. I mean, I'm only two books into this series, who knows where it'll take me because I do always say that I just fill out the incident report, the characters tell me what to do. That's I have no control over it. I could be halfway through a book and they'll be like curveball, and I'm like, well, here we go.

SPEAKER_03 16:13

Yeah. Well, it's funny because you know how we like tropes and we don't like tropes and stuff like that. I mean, I have some tropes that I'm like, nope, I I do not like those. The white choose trope, it's not it's not that I don't like it. I'll be honest. I I'm trying to I haven't read one. I'll tell you the closest I have read in a minute. Um, but I am my universal fantasy is that destined one true love, faded, made, da da da da, right? Like that's my thing. So, of course, the three thing or more, uh like it's not, and it's not that I don't like it, because I actually haven't read it and I should. Um because I do have some tropes I really don't like. I will avoid them at all possible. So it's not that, but it's it's just really interesting because it's like as I sit here and think about it, I'm like, but still one true life. But anyways, I wrote that I read this book a long time ago. I want to say it's Sylvia Day before before there was 50 shades of gray, before that, right? There was Sylvia Day, Maya Banks, and some they were writing these uh BDSM or Psalm sub type uh stories. Um and I I think in some ways they were probably thankful to E.L. James, right? In other ways, like what the heck, right? Like we've been writing this for years. What the heck? Anyway, um, she had a book, I think it's in the crossfire books where um there was these there's a I think there's four books in the men are all friends, and at least two of them sometimes will kind of share. Sure, right? So there'll be one woman and they'll both be with her type of thing. And in this particular one I was reading, this was happening, but as things are getting kind of hot and heavy, one of them is like, nope, nope, do not want to share. You have to go. Yes, and of course, so that fed into my thing, right? It's like that one thing, right?

SPEAKER_01 18:21

But that's as close as I've gone. Yeah. So I think uh, I mean, I agree with you, uh like in my can my regular contemporary straight relationship novels, um, it is, it's that, like you are my end game. Um, and so I think that's probably part of why, with my twist on why choose, why they all end up together, because it's this at some point, it's this undeniable, like, okay, I can't live without the rest of you. Like, and I think I I hope that as readers read it, um, that it kind of opens their eyes to things or just at least gives them something else to think about, right? Um, but again, it's just it for me, it was just too it's just the way that it worked out. Love is love, and and they're all one big happy family.

SPEAKER_03 19:13

Yeah, and of course, what what you're saying, love is love. Yeah, I think what we're seeing is that the reality of the world is that there is love is love. There are all things beyond one woman, one man type of thing. Yeah, absolutely. Two men, one woman, it could be two women, one man, it could be eight of them, it could be that that is not a coercive force thing, but is a choice, yeah, type of thing. And of course the LBGTQ and all the that is the reality of the world. And what is really interesting is that romance seems to be the place that uh begins to recognize it, begins to present present it in the best way it can. Maybe it's not always sure, but to the point where people who a couple years ago might have been, what are now like, oh, I really liked this book.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

Yeah, whatever. And that, I mean, I I do believe that's true. Like I said, with my grandmother, um, I love her dearly, but she would never have willingly picked up a book that was between two men. She read it because I wrote it, and then she's like, okay, that was not what I was expecting. That was a really good story, and and kind of saw past that and things like that. And I think as a parent, that's important to me too. You know, no, my kid, my kids are teenagers now, they're 15. They I they still don't read my books. Um, they are a little bit more privy to like what mom writes, that it's a little bit more spicy and that that's why they don't read them and things like that. But I want that, like I want to build a legacy that one day they can look back and go, like, my mom got it. Like she was accepting of all people, she gave them a voice. And I know that sometimes authors get flack for the right way. Um, don't try to tell our story and things like that. But I do find that the LGBT LGBTQ community to be the most welcoming, I guess I would say, with wanting their voices to be heard and being accepting of someone who's not necessarily um part of the community being their voice or giving their giving them a voice. Or and I think it's just as important uh when you're talking about minorities in general, that they see themselves in fiction or even non-fiction, but that they see themselves, you know, going back to heated rivalry on the big screen, um, on TV. It's that representation is important. Um, you know, and so that's that's how I got here.

SPEAKER_03 21:48

So yeah, I think that's great. I think that's great. Um now I I thought I would well, first of all, I have to ask you this. Uh sure, and then we'll move on. In in the while. I choose trope. One of the things I was wondering because a lot of times if it's a couple, two people, we write dual point of view. So I'm like, are you are you having to write three, four, five POV?

SPEAKER_01 22:11

And how hard is that? So when I wrote Pucking Tangled, I did each each character got their own point of view. Um and I dove into like what their specific feelings were and and things like that. Um and I have to say it was pretty difficult at first, and I laughed about it and I was like, man, like because initially, honestly, pucking tangles pucking tangled was going to be a one-off. But then like as I started writing, which has happened to me before I start writing, and then these other characters start talking, and I'm like, well, here we go. Um, so it was a little bit difficult at first, but the longer that I got into the story and sat with those characters, the easier it became. Um, and in a way, it kind of it's it wasn't really that much of a difference. But again, you're keeping track of four different personalities, five different personalities, um, and emotions and feelings, and and and each one of them were uniquely different in their own way. You know, one of them was the shy, quiet, kind of nerdy rookie of the group. Um, one of them was a little bit older and just like his love language was sarcasm and gruff around the edges, and um he was kind of not necessarily a bully, but a little bit to that extent where he kind of picked on the heroine a little bit, always with the best of intentions, but they just loved to rile each other up. Um, and then um Casey and Owen, they were in a male-male relationship together, and Casey is best friends with the female lead character, and that's how that kind of started when Owen was like, I think you might like her a little bit more than a friend. And so they had their own personality, you know, like Owen was like the group dad and things like that, and Casey was like kind of just the go-with-the-flow, laid-back guy. So, to put all of those together, I mean, it was really fun from a trope standpoint, oh, because you could kind of get a whole lot of them in there based off of their personalities. But I really, really, really had to pay attention to who was who, and that's where also my critique partner was vital because sometimes she'd be like, Nope, this isn't true to this character, this is this character talking. And I was like, Oh, yeah, you're right, let me fix that. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:34

I once uh wrote a book that had four points of view, but and it but it was a mystery. Yeah. And I vowed to never do it again because it was hard to keep track of who knew what and where, right? Especially in a mystery. So I have to admire that. Now you had also introduced me to the world of author fan fiction, which I had never heard about until you had told me about it. Um and in this case, it's where authors can write in another author's world if that author allows it. In this case, it was Susan Stoker, who I would describe as writing kind of gritty hero-centered romantic suspense. By hero-centered, I mean a lot of time, they're like an FBI agent or a Navy SEAL or uh that type of thing. Um and I know that you have had several books in her world. Um, what made you decide to do that? And do you still do that?

SPEAKER_01 25:25

So I was kind of I was working on my Too Hot to Handle series, which was a group of hot cops. Um, I was working on that series, and I don't remember exactly how I ended up over there, but it was just about there is I part of it was uh at one point in time there was a group of authors that were in something what they were calling Kindle Worlds, which was where Amazon had said, hey, let us produce this author world for you, this fan fiction kind of world for you. And Kindle Worlds had dissolved kind of abruptly and left a lot of these authors hanging in the balance. And I don't remember, so please don't quote me on that, if Susan Stoker was part of Kindle Worlds, or if she had seen this and was like, okay, I'm gonna try this on my own. I don't remember for sure, but I know that all of that was happening. And as a result of that, there were also some other worlds like the Cocky Heroes Club, which was Penelope Ward and V Cleeland. They did their thing. Serena Bowen did one. Um, but the one that I felt like I kind of connected with the most just based on the characters I was already writing was Susan Stokers. And so I had reached out to her and she had sent me some information, and I was like, you know what, I'm gonna go for it. Like I was trying to reach a new audience and things like that, and I thought, well, you know, she has this huge group of readers, and I was watching what some of the other authors were doing in that world, and they seemed to be having pretty good success with it. And I was like, I'm just gonna do it. You know, it was pretty low commitment, a 50-50 split kind of thing, and she published it under her ACES Press, and it got pushed out to her ACES Press readers, and I mean it was pretty amazing. Um, it definitely kind of took my income to the next level, and I did that. I think I think it was a commitment of like I want to say seven years, but I don't really think it was that long. It might have been more like three that each of your books had to be in. Um, but I did recently, I guess tail end of last year, no, the year before. So 2024, um I'd wanted to write more, but there was there was a little bit of time in 2024 where things had kind of gotten pulled put on hold for me writing-wise. Um I was working a job outside of the house, which I haven't done since my kids were little, since before they were born, actually, but things were just different. I was in a different space. I wasn't able to write as much. We were fostering two of my baby cousins, and so um, you know, there wasn't a lot of time to write. And so because I hadn't um continued to write in that world, things kind of tapered off a little bit, as they do. If you're not publishing, you're not making money, you know. Um, and so Susan came to me and she was like, hey, this is where we're at. You're more than welcome to keep them in the world, or if you would like, I know I can revert the rights back to you and you can republish them on your own. And so I thought about it for a little bit and I was like, I'm not really sure if I'm gonna get to revisit this series because I had started out as a series within her world. So let me just go ahead and pull them and republish them, and then it is what it is. And so that's what I did. So those three books came out, and then I republished them, um redid the covers a little bit. And when you republish them, obviously you have to take out her uh intellectual property. Um, so I did that, and you know, I think it was a good decision at the time. Um, she was very clear that like if at some point in the future I want to come back to that and start writing in her world again, absolutely. I highly, highly recommend it. There are authors that are still within her world that publish every time um the her fan world publishes, which I think is like, I think she's doing it quarterly this year. Um, and they have great success with it. So I definitely um it's a great opportunity, like I said, to reach new readers, especially if you already write kind of romantic suspense. Um, there are authors who write something totally different. She's never put any stipulations on what you have to write to be in her world. So you could write aliens if you wanted to. Um and so, but they still seem to have pretty good success as well. Um, obviously, like the front runners are the ones that are writing the romantic suspense, but I think it's a great way to reach new readers and kind of give you a broader platform and things like that. So for sure.

SPEAKER_03 30:01

Yeah, I I agree in terms of getting you in front of other readers. Absolutely. It sounds ideal. Because you're sort of I could people are probably like, well, why would I do a 50-50 split when I did all the work, right? Well, but part of that is is her publishing house is is publishing it and taking care of all that kind of stuff. But also, she does have it's not just that it's a lot of readers, it's they're active.

SPEAKER_01 30:27

She has a group on Facebook where they're talking, and when she's announcing stuff coming out, they're like woo-woo woo, like yeah, and us uh the authors also have so she has her core reader group, and then she has her special operations group, which is for like the fandom, and that group is active. The readers are very vicarious, and um there's an author who hosts a takeover for all of the authors um publishing in that cycle, and so you can go in and do like a takeover for your journey or for your release. And I mean, so it's it some people might be like, Well, why would I do a 50-50 split? But I can tell you right now, I made more on those three books in that same year than I did on what I had put out. Like just those three alone had done better because they were reaching a wider audience. Um, the biggest thing though to keep in mind, like when you're venturing into that, is if you're venturing into a fandom like that, her world is strictly KU. It pays off to have the rest of your books in KU as well. Because there are some who are just readers and will read no matter what, but there are others that they are just die hard, Kindle, unlimited, and they're going to read them in KU, and that's fine. So it certainly makes a difference if all of your books are in KU because you will pick up readers that are going to then be with you for a lifetime if you continue to give them good words.

SPEAKER_03 31:47

So yeah, yeah, and good stories. Yep. Um, now I think you mentioned this a little bit before, but um, during the holidays you had that novella release. Yep. Um, The Mistletoe Day. And you were doing weekly releases. Yep. Kudos to you. Because that just makes my I just think about makes my head explode. And then how did how did you manage it without having your head explode?

SPEAKER_01 32:17

So I a lot of it came down to so while we were releasing every week, it was actually I was releasing every two weeks. Um, Rebecca was releasing every two weeks, and they alternated. So um it worked out really well. And I think part of why it went so well is because we literally sat down and crafted this whole thing in like an hour, hour and a half, and had everything laid out. She's a little bit more organized than I am, which is great because we had spreadsheets and we had timelines and character names, and we were like pinging these ideas off of each other. So it was almost like a co-write, but not really, because she was writing her story and I'm writing mine. Um, but there were the character crossovers and stuff. And I think honestly, it was one of the best things for both of us, and in a lot of ways, too, like Christmas time can be really rough for me. Um, my dad was born on Christmas, he passed away in October. Like, it's been years, but he passed away in October. So, from like October to February-ish is always a really tough time for me. And the holidays always feel heavy because he loved Christmas, and so it was a really nice way to keep my brain distracted, and that's probably why my head didn't explode because we were and in the perfect world, we actually would have been writing these all year long and then had saved them for that. But it was one of those things where I was like, Hey, I was thinking about this, and I had pitched it to her for this year for 2026, and she was like, she got so excited about it, and she was, wait, did you mean next year? But we had already planned everything, and I was like, at this point, we're doing it. Like, yeah, you know, we've got everything together, and so I think that was the biggest thing. And we put together our own little ARC group. We reached out to some readers and we were like people that read our stuff originally, um, had a nice little ARC group going, and that's what we did. We just released them and we ran ads on them, and I mean it went really well, all things considered. Both of us hit some pretty cool goals with um like hitting. I was number one in one of my categories, she was number one in one of hers at one point. It was it was an amazing, it was but and again, we were working with the Alphabet and we were hitting it before that drop off so that it was keeping us relevant in the store and things like that. So yeah, that's cool. And by ads, do you mean Facebook or Amazon? Facebook. I've never had any luck with Amazon ads, um, but Facebook ads do very fairly fairly well for me.

SPEAKER_03 34:40

So yeah, I'm always up and down with those. Yeah, you know. Yeah. Um when I look at your Amazon page, we have these uh I don't know, are I guess they're little novellas, the mistletoe bay, we've got the Susan Stoker books. I see a lot of sort of cowboy rancher types, yeah. Um and and now sports. And I'm just curious, like, it's a lot of different sort of different things. How do you, you know, do these just come to you? Do you do you think oh this is popular now, I'm gonna write that?

SPEAKER_01 35:10

Or how how do all these come about? So when I started out, um, I kind of thought I was gonna go the direction of military romance and kind of stick to that. No real reason other than I really connect it with those stories as a reader. And I mean, obviously have unwavering and undying support for those who put their lives on the line for us every day. And so I hit my first my first book was not a military romance, but one of the side characters was in the army, and he had our I had always had plans for him to have a book. Like I had mapped out this series, and that series never really took off because I wrote the first book, I wrote the second book, which was a true military romance, and around that time Hurricane Irma hit, and that cop photo went viral. And I was like, I'm talking to one of my friends who lives in Florida, she was another author, and I was like, wouldn't it be funny if and plotted this novel? And I remember like it was a Saturday night, and I sat down at the computer, I had my notes, and I was up the entire night and had already written like 15,000 words in it by the time the rest of the house woke up, and I was like, okay, so I guess I'm doing this. And my thought was, okay, so this is gonna be a one-off. I'm gonna go back to my main series that I was working on. This is just gonna be a standalone. And about halfway through, the secondary character in that book was like, no, I need a story. And I'm like, okay, here we go. Um, and so my first series never really took off. The Too Hot to Handle series did, and a lot of that was just based on, I mean, I really truly just write whatever comes into my head. Sometimes it coincides with what's trending and hot, and sometimes it doesn't. Um, but I'd started writing the cops and like romantic suspense and military because they all kind of overlap a little bit, and then um the cowboy one, that one actually, so um Ranger actually 110%. I looked at that picture. Um, the cover model, I have met him a couple of times, kind of friendly with him, Robert Kelly. He had posted that picture, and the photographer Dante Delam Dalamore, they were they were doing a um a giveaway or or something. They the horse in the photo has passed away, but they had gone out and did like end-of-life photos for the um owner of the horse. And I looked at that picture and I was like, holy crap! Like, I know exactly what this story is. Like, I I know what this story is, I know who this person is. And sometimes that happens like that. I can just be scrolling social media and it'll pop up. Um, I mean, I have one title, Wait in the Truck, that hasn't come out yet, that got put on the back burner for a little bit, but the inspiration for that is the actual song Wait in the Truck. Um, and it it that's just how it works. It the inspiration to me, inspiration is everywhere. Um, with the hockey one, that one was again, I saw a cover that Stacey Garcia had made, and I was like, that is a really cool cover, that would be really, really fun to write. And I hemmed and hauled over it, and I actually talked to one of my author friends because one of my best friends writes hockey romance. And so I was like, I'll never write hockey romance because that's her jam. I don't want to step on her toes. And she was like, No, that's not how this works. If that story speaks to you, write the story. She's like, Don't ever hold back just because I write hockey romance. So I was like, All right, I'm gonna do it. And again, I kind of hit it right as the market started to take off because I published that and then heated rivalry came out right after that. And I mean, I had no idea what heated rivalry was or anything. Um, and sadly didn't know who Rachel Reed was either until then. And then I was like, Oh, I have been missing out on a lot.

SPEAKER_02 38:59

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:00

So I mean, a little it's just making a resurgence because it feels like it was out a couple of years ago because I remember that whole thing about the TikTok girl that was searching for the Kraken dude, and the cracking dude's wife is like, that's a little too much. Yeah. And then, of course, recently we had the one where uh the main character is a female broad hockey broadcaster, and apparently there's like 40 hockey broadcasters in the United States, like however many teams there are, there's 40. One is a woman in reality, right? Yes, yes, her name is Piper, yes, and this author made her, yeah. And so there was the like, okay, that's that's weird. So I know the hockey drama, hockey, hockey romance drama, but it it does seem like with heated rivalry it's coming wrong. And then of course the women and men's US teams won.

SPEAKER_01 39:56

So imagine I think as far as drama goes, too, talking about the Olympics and things like that, and how poorly the men's hockey team behaved afterwards, according to many. Um there was a lot of like on threads mostly, a lot of drama on threads about like you know, this should be the end of hockey romance. And I was like, ew, we're not going anywhere. Because here's the thing you have to take into consideration is that we're writing a fantasy. So we're writing those hockey guys the way you want them to be, not the way they are in real life. Um, and this is not new. Like, I I think with Heated Rivalry, it brought a lot of people into the sport, and then they were like, Ew, what do you mean that it's not all like what it was in Heated Rivalry? Like, we've not me personally, because I don't watch a whole lot of hockey, but I knew I love to read hockey romance, I do. Um, but I was well aware of like these are not great guys, and so people are like, we're trying to tell you, like, but it's just but that's what fiction is, right?

SPEAKER_03 40:58

I mean, whether it's a football romance or a billionaire romance, right? Right. You know, I mean, is has billionaire romance dropped, maybe because of I don't think it has, though.

SPEAKER_01 41:09

I think when you look at like when you look at the Amazon charts and you look at you know the bestseller list and uh even like the Kay Lytics reports that we can get as authors and stuff, billionaires, um, hockey, hockey has always been what they called evergreen. It might ebb and flow. And I think for somebody who doesn't read hockey romance all the time or whatever, it might seem like it comes and goes, but it has been a mainstream at least since 2016. Yeah. Um, but again, it yes, it is growing in popularity because of heated rivalry for sure. But um, you know, and cowboy romance was supposed to be a really hot thing. And honestly, the first book in that series, Shadow, I actually wrote an anthology during the COVID Olympics that got canceled. And it was about an equestrian who was going to the Olympics, and that one was kind of a little head nod to my daughter who does horseback riding, and to her therapist who got her into horseback riding. So my kids were born prematurely. My daughter has struggled a lot over the years, and so she's always been in like OT and PT to help with that fine motor and things like that. And her OT, the program that she was in, they started doing riding therapy to where she would get up on a horse and do her OT and stuff. So my little girl was like as a preschooler riding bareback on a horse and reaching over to the side and picking things up and and doing all kinds of neat things. And so I had written this character kind of as a way to honor that place that we were in in our lives and things like that. And the character was supposed to be going to the Olympics and ended up coming home because of course the Olympics got canceled the year that COVID hit. And so I had that story sitting there that had the anthology run was done, and I was like, well, that could be book one in this series. Um, and then book two. I will say my core readers loved it, um, but it never really took off. So even though it was hot, like and and the crazy thing was like when I published it, there were people that were like into it, and I'm like, and it was really big. And then all of a sudden I was like, Well, it's not going so great for me. Um, but I think that that happens sometimes. Um, oh, it looks like Tara's here. It looks like she's coming in. I told her to jump in anytime. Absolutely. Hi! I'm glad you were able to hop on.

SPEAKER_00 43:37

Me too.

SPEAKER_01 43:37

Yeah, yeah. So we were just talking about how cowboy romance did not work out for me.

unknown 43:44

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 43:44

You look like you were doing quite a stint of it for a while there.

SPEAKER_01 43:47

Um so yeah, I had released two, and there are some, like there's a little bit of overlap where like some of my other characters um may have kind of that going on, that like small town vibe kind of going. Um But like the court, those Shadow and Ranger, they never really took off the way I would have liked them to. And that's okay. And that's not to say that I won't go back and revisit them just right now. It's not on the table.

SPEAKER_03 44:11

So you just never know sometimes what is going to resonate. What what you really don't know is what is going to like take off. Like sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 44:21

Right. And I do think part of my downfall may have been, I think readers were looking for that super hot, super spicy cowboy romance, which is fine. And it's not to say that Ranger was not spicy, but I think where I got them was that it was really angsty and kind of sad because um the in the beginning of the book, the hero loses her husband and she falls for her husband's best friend. And so they're walking through those motions together. And I don't think that's what readers really wanted at that time. But that was the story they called to me. So I wrote it. Um, you know, but there are people that loved it and there are people that didn't, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 44:59

No, I like Aggs Team. It's sad that it didn't resonate.

SPEAKER_01 45:02

I mean, some years it's it came back.

SPEAKER_03 45:04

You maybe you run an ad on it, right? You want to run an ad on my backlist and all of a sudden it's taking off gangbusters. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:12

And I mean, and that I mean, my hot cop series is proof to that. I had a book bub for that in January for book one. And I was like, all right, well, after this book bub runs, I'm gonna start some ads on it again and just kind of see like that book's been out since 2017, and it has taken off again. And I was like, all right, well, I'm glad to know that we still have readers out there for this. So because I do, which I guess you guys might get the exclusive on this. Um, I have plans for next year to do some pretty cool stuff with that series because it'll be the 10th anniversary. So some special editions and maybe some character art and some fun stuff. So that's a good idea. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:49

The other thing I've I've I've seen your your cowboy romance ads because of course I follow you on Instagram.

SPEAKER_01 45:55

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 45:55

And what I've noticed is that it is advertised as very spicy cowboy romance. Um so I wonder if you're attracting the wrong readers.

SPEAKER_01 46:03

You you know, you may very well be right. I have found that, and the reason why it's it seems like that's what it's attracting is I think because um that's the only thing that ads respond to. So, like even when we do like if you do a reel or a TikTok, they're only responding to the spicy stuff. Like even if anything else, they don't care.

SPEAKER_00 46:23

Oh that's sad.

SPEAKER_03 46:24

Which it is, right? Because sometimes TikTok all of a sudden you're not getting views because they think it's too spicy, right? Right. Like, oh yeah, but this is what people, the algorithm should be saying they want to look at.

SPEAKER_01 46:38

Right. Yeah. So I mean that could be it. I mean, and like I said, there definitely there is spice in it, but I just think that probably when they get to the blurb, they're like, oh no, wait, no, thank no, thank you. Because because it's very clear in the blurb that yeah, it is spicy, but this the these characters are going through it. Um and that's okay. I mean, I totally get it. It it's if that's not what somebody wants to read right then and there, then that's not what they want to read, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 47:04

So is it possible to do a book swap with like another angsty author or something?

SPEAKER_01 47:09

Yeah, I'm sure that possibility is there. I could probably do a book swap or and maybe even kind of in the same vein, because one of the things that I had talked about when I released that with like my little author tribe was that at some point, like maybe on the five-year anniversary, kind of revisiting the story a little bit, maybe having an another author in that genre kind of critique it for me and be like, Okay, well, this is what's working, this is what's not. Maybe there's some room for growth there to make it a little bit stronger. Um, but again, it could, and then also it could just pop off on its own at some point too. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:42

I think it'll find its readers.

SPEAKER_03 47:43

Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:45

And it's become like a strategy.

SPEAKER_03 47:46

Or a reader reads it in a way that they talk about it in a way that's slightly different or something. I mean, there's a little bit a lot of things out here that build buzz, and it's like, well, I didn't look at it like that. Right. But then somebody else comes in with sort of another perspective, and you're like, oh I get that a lot with like 50 Shades of Grey.

SPEAKER_01 48:04

That one always seemed to be like a hot topic for a long time, and it got a lot of crap for a lot of things. But for me, like I read it, and I've read it from the perspective of like understanding how messed up in the head Christian was. Like, I saw it from that point of view. It was like, here is this broken man, and uh not everybody saw it that way, and even like my friend who like lent it to me and she's like, You need to read this, and then we need to talk about it. She was like, Were we reading the same book? I'm like, I think we were. I mean, I read the book you gave me.

SPEAKER_03 48:37

So yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's interesting. That is interesting, yeah. So well, Tara, we have we have pretty much hit everything that I just already talked about talked about heated rivalry, dang it.

SPEAKER_00 48:52

I just thought I wanted to do that.

SPEAKER_01 48:53

Well, you know, you can throw it. I mean, like we can talk about that some more. I was telling I was uh telling Jenna that she asked if I watched it and I said I watched it more than once, and apparently in the fandom we call that reheating or going back to the cottage. So um I was like, yes, I I have watched it more than once, yeah. Um and I don't know, did you guys did you guys watch Saturday Night Live?

SPEAKER_03 49:19

No, I saw that the young man was on there that he plays Ilya, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:25

So some of his monologues, did you know that? Yes, so every time I have seen this poor man do an interview, he opens his mouth and I'm like, where's the Russian? Oh no, because he talked, and I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like, this is not the right voice. Because he he very much talks like from Texas, and I'm like, okay, that's and they said that he learned Russian in like two weeks. Holy crap. And like it was it was crazy.

SPEAKER_00 49:57

So I was like, wow, he drops an F bomb in Russian like a natural.

SPEAKER_01 50:02

Yes. Like, I mean, you would think that's why I was so mind blown at first because I was like, no, like I really thought he was fluent, like there's no way. Um, but I did watch, I haven't watched the whole thing, but I've seen clips of it and stuff, and his some of his monologues was very, very funny. And gifts that have come out since then have been very interesting. Um, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:24

He has amazing delivery. I love his deep deep voice he does. He also has really good like comic timing, so it doesn't surprise me that he would be great on Saturday Night Live as well. Like I could see that. I actually thought he was Russian, to be honest with you.

SPEAKER_01 50:36

Yes, I did too. I did too. That's why I was so like dumbfounded when I first heard his first interview. I was like, whoa.

SPEAKER_00 50:43

I know he's a bit of a jerk. I think Jenna said at some point that she was finding him to be a bit of a jerk.

SPEAKER_01 50:48

In the show, yeah. In the beginning of the show, he is like the first few episodes.

SPEAKER_03 50:52

Yeah, I there was I there were moments where I was, and and even in the moments where I'm thinking of it, the other kid Holland? Holland? Hollander, yeah, Shane Hollander will come right out and say, You are no, you're a jerk. He doesn't use jerk, but you're right. Yes, you're an a-hole in the thing. Anyway, so yeah, and I'm like, then why are you there?

SPEAKER_00 51:20

There's like trash talking in the bedroom, it's hilarious.

SPEAKER_03 51:23

Um Ilya had had just been kind of a jerk to him. I mean, like ignoring him, and and he went up and was like, Are you okay? And he's like, just get the and then he follows him into the bathroom and he's just being really kind of vulgar. Yeah, and this kid goes up to the room, and he's just and I'm just like, why are you subjecting yourself to this? Like, I just wasn't getting it. But when I see him with his father, calls from his brother. So I mean, there is the the elements are there where you're kind of understanding and trying to not just be this is just a jerk Russian a-hole hockey player, but going on that, and so you're trying to be open. I remember in Red, White, and Royal Blue when I read the book. This was not in the show. When I read the book, I remember it took me a while to. I remember thinking the first son is ridiculous.

SPEAKER_04 52:25

Right.

SPEAKER_03 52:26

And it did, it took me a while. Um, but then that was actually part of what was going on, right? And coming, coming through that. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:35

And I do think, I think that Isla kind of redeems himself a little bit later on, um, and he softens some, especially for him. And some of like their antics, I'm like, these are just they're they're just they're just boys, they're just boys. Um, but and the relationship, friendship that they seem to have off screen and stuff, like going back to SNL, apparently he had said in an interview, they were like, it they asked him if, and I can never keep their real life names um correct. So he asked him if Shane was coming to see him, and he was like, No, I don't think he'll be there. And he was like, But that would be like the best surprise ever would be to share that moment with him. So if he just like showed up unannounced, so during one of the skits, he had no idea, and here he comes skating out on the ice, and this would be the genuine surprise on his face. I was like, Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_00 53:25

That's cute. I love that.

SPEAKER_03 53:28

Yeah, earlier, Aubrey shared uh a moment later in the season where you know he sort of puts his arm around him and you're boyfriends here, type of thing. I mean, I love stuff like that. I those are the moments I live for.

SPEAKER_01 53:41

And I think part of the reason why like a lot of us are re-watching it more than once is also when you watch it the second time around, you start to notice little things. So, like in some of the interviews, yeah, he's a real jerk, but in some of the interviews, like where they sh they zoom down to their feet, he kind of nudges him with his foot a little bit. Oh, yeah. So, like that one where they were at dinner with the parents, he's having a panic attack because he puts his arm around him and he's whispering to him. And yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:06

Yeah, yeah, I think you can even on the first watch, you can really see their connection. I think it's pretty obvious to me. And I think Ilya comes by his issues, honestly. I mean, they do notice in the show that being in Russia in the well, this is like we're talking late aughts, early 20 teens as a gay man was dangerous. I mean, they had like gangs of people would would beat people to death if they found out that they were gay in some cases in Moscow. So, not out in the sticks. So, like, that's all there, like that's all real. So, when um Dane Hollander comes up to him at the Sochi Olympics and tries to talk to him, I can see why he's like, get away from me. I don't want anyone to figure out that we're looking each other, but you can tell.

SPEAKER_04 54:43

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:45

People are making jokes about it. And like my favorite thing was when they're in the locker room and they're they're texting each other, and Ilya is in his locker room, and his his buddy looks at him and he's like, This girl's really got you strung out. Like, you're blushing. He's like, I don't blush. Russians don't blush. I've never blushed in my life. Yeah, right. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 55:03

Yeah, yeah. And of course, in the phones, they're not they're listed as Jane and you know, yeah, right. They're giving each other, but yeah, sort of their their cover, uh, which is sad. But hopefully, you know, we'll keep moving forward and things like this will will change because um, yeah, it's it's a sweet, sweet thing. But I I did struggle in the beginning with it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:29

I I want to read the books, but I cannot read them while I'm currently writing hockey because it just will not yeah, and it's hard to and it's sometimes it's hard to read.

SPEAKER_03 55:38

I I used to like to read the books before the show comes out, and sometimes I still do that. Like I've done that with Bridgerton. And so even in the most recent thing, you know, I remember being a little worried. I was really happy with the changes they made from the book in the season this year. Um so but but sometimes that's a you're sort of like, oh, wait a minute, this is different. I that can be hard sometimes. Yeah. There's a there's a comedian um who what's her name? Kathleen Madigan. She has this joke where people will say, uh, the movie isn't as good as the book, and they're so disappointed by the book was better. And her response is like, Well, that's what you get for reading.

SPEAKER_00 56:25

I I hate that that knee-jerk response. I feel like it's like a thing that people feel like they have to say every single time the book was better than the movie, and a lot of times it's not that, it's that the movie's different from the movie.

SPEAKER_01 56:36

Right, it's different, it's not better or worse.

SPEAKER_00 56:38

It's an adaptation. Sometimes it is genuinely the case that like this book and this movie are not the same thing in any way, and like one is cheapening the other in some way. Like, yeah, I I've heard some nasty things about the most recent Wuthering Heights adaptation.

SPEAKER_03 56:53

Yes, yes, yeah. We won't even go there. But most of Wuthering Heights adaptations are not like it's not even the book, not even the full book, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:01

That's so common for Wuthering Heights, right?

SPEAKER_01 57:04

Like, yeah, that's a whole and that was that was why there were so many time jumps and heated rivalry in the show because he wanted to cram in as much as he could out of these books and give as much life. I really think that that entire pairing from the casting to the director to all of it, I think they knocked it out of the park. I really do. And like I said, I haven't read the books yet. When I'm not writing hockey romance, I will. But um, I have a hard time. Heated rival rivalry was the second book.

SPEAKER_00 57:30

Yes, yeah, yeah. What's what is the first one? What is the first book?

SPEAKER_03 57:34

It's about a hockey player and a barista, I think. And I think they have yeah, so yeah, so it's about the other couple.

SPEAKER_01 57:40

Um let me see. Yeah, um, I think it was long game, maybe.

SPEAKER_03 57:43

Is it a barista?

SPEAKER_01 57:45

If it's amazing, I think so. Barista, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 57:48

You never use that in Starbucks. You're just a barista. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 57:52

And what if there are many of them? Baristis?

SPEAKER_00 57:55

Baristis? What's the declension on barista? No, no, don't do this to me.

SPEAKER_02 58:00

Barista? Barista? Masculine plural baristis. Baristos.

SPEAKER_00 58:06

I think it's just that sounds Italian. I think it's just baristas and baristas.

SPEAKER_01 58:10

I think so too. So it's it for the first book was Game Changer, and that was that was Scott and Kip, which was the barista and the hockey player. And I I really loved them. They were like honestly, I loved their story just as much. I would have liked to have seen more from them. But yeah, it's game changer, heated rivalry, tough guy, common goal, role model, long game and unrivaled. And I think she's got I I think she's now writing another book. Yeah. Or Unrivaled might be book seven. She just announced that she's gonna write one more book for these guys.

SPEAKER_00 58:47

Are these all different couples or same couple? What are we talking about?

SPEAKER_01 58:50

So I think that Game Changer and Long Game are both um the same couple, but I think other than that, they're different couples. I think as well. Oh yeah.

unknown 59:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:02

She's a Canadian author, I believe. So she is. She is. I had to write hockey romance for my client when I was ghostwriting. So I had to learn a little bit about hockey. No, that was just the last year or whatever. Before that, it was a lot, a lot of other stuff, and one of them was a lot of billionaire, mostly billionaire. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:32

That's the toy idea, Aubrey.

SPEAKER_03 59:34

Um but uh but yeah, I had to do some hockey ones, and so I had to go out and learn a little bit about hockey. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, because so this uh you don't have to know the minute details, but when you're writing, you have to know enough that somebody who loves hockey doesn't say, wait a minute, they don't draft in what whatever month you think they're drafting in, or they don't.

SPEAKER_01 59:56

I did learn the hard way that you could be an expert and somebody is still gonna tell you you're doing it wrong. Yeah. That like when I was writing in the 425 Madison miniseries, I had a reader who said I didn't know anything about police officers and that a police officer would never fire his gun. What? Never that's cute. That's very cute. And yeah, it was apparently she's from a small town, and I was like, okay, well, maybe in your small town, but this was in New York City, and um a retired New York City cop read over the scenes for me to ensure accuracy and gave me feedback.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:34

So does this person never like watch TV?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:39

I I I don't know. I just I have no idea. I was like, okay, I I think it's more so that I'm just not the author for you. Because I mean, I've I've I had a reader um one time, all of my reviews that she left me, God lover, she was like, There was a lot of cussing and a lot of explicit sex. And I was like, Yeah, that that's what I write. But she always I mean they were great reviews, but she always made note of that. And I was like, Well, that that's yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:07

I need to put at the front of my books content warning, F bombs.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:10

Even when they do you may, I had somebody who wanted to give me a one star once because I wrote in third person. Oh my gosh. Now the blur, the the description is in third person. Yeah. I actually in the edit in the the editor editorial part on Author Central, I actually put like a snippet from the opening chapter. Yeah, they could read that it was in third person. Now they gave me three stars because it was good, it was just in third person.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:40

There are some people who just and like I have a hard time because my Susan Stoker books were third person because that is what she writes in. And I was like, okay, well, I'm gonna try to like match as much as I can. And one of my author friends was like, your voice is so much stronger in third person. And I was like, okay. Meanwhile, the other series, the other hot cop series that I'm writing is all in first person, and I'm um, and so it just depends. And then like the hockey series that I'm writing is in third person, and and there are some people who won't write it just because it's in third. And for me, like I'm I admit I am one of those readers where yes, I can tell the difference, but I can read something and it doesn't bother me. Like I can read it in first, I can read it in third. My downfall, and my editor knows this, is I can read the same paragraph three times and I my brain will process it as it is supposed to be written. I will not see any of the typos or the misspellings or anything, I just don't see them. And so even like people are like, oh, this book was so poorly edited. Like when you're reading somebody else's book and you look at the reviews, and I'm like, I didn't think it was. Well, maybe it was, and I just didn't see it.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:48

Oh man, how do I get that superpower?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:50

I'm I'm the same way. And I I think most writers are because what you're reading is what you intended yes to have, right? So that's what you are reading. Tara's an editor. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:02

I read like an editor, unfortunately, which means that I'm hyper-critical and my brain is attacking me constantly. So it's not a good place to be to read like an editor. It's much more enjoyable to read like a reader.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:13

Yeah. When you when you're reading for fun, do you have like do you sometimes have to remind yourself, like, don't or like when you're finished, be like, okay, I can't be that critical. Like, I read this as an editor. Like, do you have to tell me?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:25

Well, I never leave reviews that aren't super critical of that kind of stuff. I might know, like, hey, yeah, you needed some commas, but also there's a certain amount of like, I know I'm like this, and also I'm like a PhD in English. So, like, of course, I am gonna be like, I want to add commas, right? But like, I also know that like most people aren't, right? So I'm just gonna be like, do I want to sprinkle commas in? Sure. Do I always? Also, sure. So it's fine. You know, it's it's it's to me, it's not a big deal. It's just other editors are different or they miss something and everyone's human. You know, to to give something a a four to get sorry, to give it something like a one star because of commas seems absolutely brutal and stupid to me.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:58

Well, and that I think that's good, and I think that's fair because not everybody is like that either. Like people will just they'll one star you. I am guilty of if I get a one star, you can bet your bottom dollar. I am clicking on that little hyperlink and I'm going to look at all of your reviews. If you've one starred everybody, then I know that you're a chronic one star person. Um, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:18

Yeah, if it's just me.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:21

Right. Then I know I need to take some of this to heart and like be it's constructive or whatever, but if you one star everybody or everybody except for a few certain authors, then I know that it's not just me. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:33

No, it's just it's actually that kind of stuff. That's the stuff I give low reviews for. It's like impatience or like bad pacing and like you know, big we call higher order concerns in writing team, like the the big structural stuff, then then we have a problem. Yeah, the wrong reader.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:47

I mean, I recovered a series of books because I was afraid they would come off too much cozy mystery with spicy bits in it, right? So I recovered them to gear more towards romance readers. So now I'm not getting the comments like, well, I don't know why there were spicy bits in here. Yeah. Because the cover now reeks romance, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:10

Yeah. It's yeah, it's just like what Aubrey was saying about the cowboy role. I think sometimes you're just not finding your readers.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:15

Yeah, yeah. And again, one of the things that we talk about a lot as authors, too, is you can have an amazing release and the follow-up book, it won't flop, but it won't be as great as that first release was. At least not right away. It might be more of a long-term gain kind of thing. And two, to that credit, I think that's part of where I'm at with writing Pucking Forever is because I've gotten in my head, like book one did so well, and I'm like, now I have to follow up on that. And like, how do I make the how do I how do I pull this off? And um, I think I've rewritten the beginning of it four times. And again, it's it was due at the end of January, and I'm not done. Um and so just last week, I was talking to my critique partner, and I was like, you are going to. To beat me and she's like, What are you doing? And I was like, I think I have to rewrite the beginning again. And she was like, Okay, well, actually, and like when I told her my plan for execution, she was like, Well, if you follow the outline this time, I think you're on the right track. You're not gonna follow the map, of course you're gonna end off somewhere else. Right. Yeah, but I I mean I was struggling so hard because I felt bad because pucking tangled, I was telling Jenna, Pucking Tangled was four guys and one girl. This one is two guys and one girl. The guys are together in the beginning, and then the girl comes into the fold. And as it was written up until I changed it again just re just last week, when she came into the fold, I was like, I feel like this isn't like it was supposed to be one of these things where Troy, the one main character, is by and he's kind of been crushing on Brooke for a little bit, and but like more playfully, like more friendly, like whatever. And then there's he's with Alec, and Alec is the rookie on the team, he's from Russia. There are some similarities there, and um, he like they're very much like non-committal with each other, but they are they're very much in a relationship, they're very much exclusive, but they're playing this game of we're not together kind of thing. And when Brooke got introduced, I was like, I feel like I'm just using her for a plot device, and that wasn't what she was supposed to be. She's supposed to be, you know, because like I was telling Jenna with my version of why I choose the happily ever after, is that the whole group is together, so more polyamory versus you know, and and that's just that's how I am doing it at the moment. Will that change somewhere down the line? It might. Um, but right now I like that pairing and that that being the happy ending. And so I was like, it doesn't feel right if she's just the plot device. Like, I need this to feel genuine, like she is meant to be a part of their circle, you know. Yeah. So I was like, well, if I did this, it would make more sense and it would feel more intentional. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:08

I think that's good. I mean, you gotta rework it until it's right. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's awesome. I was I read at like a cozy Omega verse last year just to figure out what that was, right? And I had a pack, right? And the the pack of guys were like a family, but they weren't together. Like there was no they weren't in like a relationship with each other, and they all got in a relationship with their one omega, which felt like a lot of wish fulfillment to me, but didn't make a whole lot of sense. And it also felt borderline homophobic, like, oh, the there's no guys are not together. No, don't worry about that. Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:39

And that was so like with Pucking Tangled, um, the four guys they they share a house together. Um the one of the guys is the team captain, um, the rookie lives with them, and then there's like there's Casey and Waylon, and um Waylon I is kind of sort of the bully, but he's not really a bully. Like they just him and the mate, the heroine, they they thrive on that. Owen and Casey are in a relationship when the book starts. And the other three are they're just roommates, and they don't care that those two are together, like they're fine with it, very open to it. And then the heroine, Maya, she moves in with them because she's a broke. Well, she's in her last year of college, and she wants to do like entertainment law or whatever, and she's Casey's best friend. She's known Casey since they were children, and they grew up together, and so she ends up moving in with them because they're like, Well, we're hardly ever at home during the season, and you will be in school, so like why don't you just stay here? And they're the Casey's excuse is they have a dog, and so he's like, then I don't have to like pay for a dog sitter, and like you can take care of the dog, and the dog loves you, and blah blah blah. And so that was kind of how that started, and she just like melted into their world seamlessly, and it's not working this way. The next one, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:58

But what I'm liking about the why choose trope is it seems to me like you can do a bunch of different tropes, like over here, we have friends to lovers. Over here, we've got like this, like we've got like two people who are meeting each other for the first time who are like coming together, like you can do a lot of different things.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:12

Yeah. So, like in that one book, I had like the enemies to lovers, which was kind of Wayland and Maya, the best friends to lovers, um, the virgin hero, because the rookie is a virgin. Um, and that was really interesting because they're all like, um, they the funny thing was the guys they have these team meetings like at the house or like house meetings. And so as they start to realize that, oh shit, all of us like her, they have this meeting and they're like, All right, so listen. And that's when they realize that their poor little rookie is a virgin. And of course, Wayland is like, Are you serious right now? He's like, There's no way. What do you mean?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:50

Like, I'd love to need a team meeting for it. Yeah, imagining like a chore chart time with the girl.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:56

So they actually like so right after that, um, like they had come to an agreement about like, because they were like, well, she's probably not gonna want to be with all of us, right? So they come to an agreement that they will each get to have their fair shake to make things happen and see where it goes. But then they decide they need house rules. So she comes in one night and the and oh it, you know, because he's like the team dad, because he's the captain. So he's all right, we're gonna sit down and we're gonna come up with some house rules. That was probably my favorite part to write was like the house rules. And so they're doing the house rules, and like number one was like you always have to wear clothes in the house because there was an incident where Maya bumped into Weyland in the hallway and his towel fell off. And so like from now on, everybody wears clothes.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:42

I'm shocked they didn't actually make that rule already. I've lived with my sister, and that rule was very important.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:47

But it was it was so funny. Like, I just I laughed so hard putting these together because then like they're having it as like the team meeting and they're discussing the rules and stuff, and every rule Weyland like had an objection to. And he's like, like, always keep your clothes on unless somebody asks you to take them off, and he would write it down and like he's looking at him like, stop, like, what is wrong with you? Oh, I know.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:10

I saw you made a graphic of this, it was so funny. That's what this was. Oh, that was great. That was really good.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:15

Like, I loved the house rules, they were so funny, and like the one about don't take too long in the bathroom, but if somebody's been in the bathroom for this long, don't knock, don't ask questions. Like, and then like Weyland is just he's such a troublemaker, but he was so much fun to write though, because he like she goes out to take the dog out for a walk and he texts her and he's like, You do know we can see you on the the doorbell camera, right? Like, what's the rule about no clothes? It looks like you like your booty shorts look like underwear. I can see cheek, and she's like, ew. Excuse you. She was like, that doesn't sound creepy at all, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:55

Just spying on her on the freaking brain camera.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:00

So it like their whole progression of how each one of them like developed their relationship. And I think a lot of white shoes that I've read, it's always just been they're always thrown in together right away. Where this one it I mean, like it's chunky. Yeah, chunky.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:20

Is that chunky? I think that that seems perfectly comparable to me. I don't know. Well, I guess my sense of chunky is off.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:27

So, like in comparison to like hot cop, like that's you know, so but it needed to be because they each got to develop their own relationship with her first, you know, and then kind of together, and um they go away, like after news breaks, there's a reporter like gets a hold of a picture of all of them out enjoying a day together and like publishes something really nasty about them. Um that's how the news breaks of what happened, and so they've all got to decide how they're gonna handle it from here. And they're like, Well, I guess first we should tell our family, although our like our phones are blowing up, like our family knows now, and everybody everybody's family was pretty cool with it except for Wayland's, which they knew like Wayland knew his parents weren't gonna be okay with it, and he didn't have a great relationship with them anyway. But they go to Texas because I also love to do like little crossovers to other series and stuff. So they go to Texas and um go to a winery that is owned by one of the girls from my Susan Stoker books.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:24

Oh, cool. You have like an Aubrey verse, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:27

So they go over to they like they go to the winery there and stuff, and they let Luca, the virgin, book the Airbnb. And they pull up to the Airbnb and Weyland is like, Did you read the description? And he's like, Yes, it said romantic, blah blah blah blah blah, and they open it up, like they open the door, and there's like restraints and uh paraphernalia, and and he's like the dungeon B. Yes, yes, and he's like, What? And they're all laughing at him because he's like, he's not like picking up on it yet, and she's like, Oh, my sweet, sweet, sweet little, you know, naive little friend. And that's when the first time that like him and Weyland connect, and rather than him being like all grossed out and stuff, he freaks out a little bit because he's like, I didn't expect this. And Wayland's like, we don't have to put a label on it, we can all just love each other, you know. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:26

I had to know, did you like look this up and find out that there was like a BDSM Airbnb somewhere in the United States?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:33

There there is because I've got an ad for it on my uh Facebook.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:36

That's great.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:39

That's where that's where the inspiration came from. Cause like when you like it looks kind of platonic at first until you click on the ad. And then um, yeah, yeah, that was fun. I was like, oh, this will be perfect, and then they're having dinner, and like his dad is like, So where are you staying? And everybody starts laughing, and he's like, Stop. And they're like, No, for real, where are you staying? And then they tell him, and his dad goes, Oh, me and your mom have been wanting to try that place, and he's like, No, no, it's a bondage and breakfast. Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:13

Exactly. So, yeah, what we talked about a little bit earlier, where what goes on in the real world is more vast and diverse and you know, open whatever. And in romance, is exposing a lot of that, exposing's not the right word, but you know, they are seeing it and they're writing it and including it, uh, which is great, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:34

Because it starts those conversations, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:37

Yeah. Romance is very much a progressive genre in a lot of ways. Yeah. Because like you you can show different kinds of love. And those are the rules, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:45

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yep, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:48

So uh, what are you guys reading right now? So, what do you recommend? Uh, and what's your your favorite thing that you're reading?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:54

I am not currently reading anything at the moment, but my most recent read that I think everybody should read, it's by Gwen McNamy, and it is the sweetest lie duet. Um, My Sweetest Agony and My Sweetest Obsession are the two books, and it is amazing, but it will wrap you. So, like you said, you liked angst. She is your girl, she is like the queen of angst to me. Uh, so she's amazing, and that book, those those two books will stick with me forever, uh, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:24

That's great. I love that, Jenna. Being destroyed. I don't know right now that I want to read books that destroy me, but okay. Yeah, this movie is something. It's recreational destruction. Right. Yeah, it uh it's all things watching a movie, watching TV. It's like that looks really good. I want to watch it, not right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, you know, I had COVID last week and I it came with a headache, so I couldn't read or watch anything. So I'm like really behind on my reading, but I did do my book of the month order called Lady Tremaine. I did it today for March, and it is a Cinderella retelling from the stepmom's point of view. Now, I I don't think it's a romance, right? It's a debut author, I cannot remember their name. Um but it sounded really interesting. Retellings can be really fun, especially from the the quote unquote villains point of view, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:22

Um isn't Lady Tremaine the Disney name for the stepmother, or is that I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:30

I mean, this is it was on my book of the month. It was one of my choice. It wasn't the romance choice. The romance choice did look fun. Um uh, but uh, you know, it was an author, not an author, her father was an author, she's gonna finish the book. They send the editor out to make her finish it in Ireland or something. I mean, it'll look like fun. But when I saw a retelling of Cinderella from Stepmommy's point of view, um, I thought, oh, that looks like fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:56

So that honestly Especially right after watching season four of Bridgerton.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:00

Exactly. Right. Bridgerton, which is you know, the Cinderella retelling. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:07

Speaking of Jenna here, I'm actually reading with this ring, I do the kill. Right now, uh, yes, it's it's uh I'm very worried for them. They are they're getting attacked left and right over this ring. Getting dangerous, but I like it. It's got kind of a almost a romantic suspense vibe going because like this ring is so dangerous. And also, like, I like the stuff about like there's some cool like French history around the ring. That's really interesting.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:31

When I wrote that, was around the time that they determined that the hope diamond was actually a cutting from the French blue, which was lost during the French Revolution. Oh, yeah. It was that time that they actually were able to scientifically determine that yes, the Hope Diamond was part of that. So it was pretty exciting. And I remember emailing the guy who was doing a lot of the research because I was asking some other questions around it. And one of the things I wanted to do in that book, he was like, No, that wouldn't happen. And I was like, Well, too bad I'm doing it because I can do that as an awesome, right? Like, so I did take some liberties. Jenna's like, I'll do what I want. Um, but anyway, so that was really cool. This third book in the series, and that was when I was really feeling like I'm finding my stride. Like the writing is still probably not great, but I'm really finding their connection and you know, all the things. So I hope you enjoy it. I am. It's found its groove. I have to thank you, Aubrey, for being here. You've been longer probably than you planned. Yeah, thank you for waiting for me. I'm so sorry. No, not at all. Um, talking. It's just so fun to talk to authors and readers, especially on romance, especially now because it used to be, you know, you didn't talk about it out right in the open, right? Because people make fun of romance and all that kind of stuff. Unless, of course, it's hockey men and then they're all for it, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:21:04

You know, I noticed that.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:05

Yeah, really excited about your hockey books coming out. So everybody's gonna go check them out. And Tara, do you wanna go ahead and lead us out of here?

SPEAKER_00 1:21:12

Absolutely. Yeah, thank you, Aubrey, so much. We really appreciate having you here. Hopefully, we'll see you in a future anthology. Maybe I would love that. All anthology hockey romance or something at some point. That would be super fun. Um, but yeah, we appreciate you being here. All right, folks. Um, if you want to join us for a future anthology and you're a romance writer, just know that we have Fantastical Foes opening in April and Starlit and Spellbound, our big anthology for the fall, opening in May. We also have the release of Pause and Peril at the end of this month, month on uh March 30th. And then we will have fireworks and flirtation, which I'm now struggling to say, uh, in May, on May 18th. Um, you can join us on Substack and learn all about romance and get weekly articles from Jenna and from myself and other guests. Um that's gonna be Tender and Tempting Tales on Substack, and also follow us on Instagram. That's TenderTemptingTales at Instagram. Uh, and of course you can join our newsletter and get a free story by Jenna Hart. That's it's about damn time. Uh and in the meanwhile, Jenna.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:07

Well, I want to thank everybody for listening. Aubrey for being here. And until next time, it's Jenna Hart wishing you peace, love, and happily ever after.