A Journey from Skepticism to Faith: Exploring Religious Identity and Transformation

Have you ever wondered about the power of transformation and the courage it takes to change one's life? Get ready to journey through raw, vivid memories of growing up in a religious household and the resistance it often evokes. From a heart-wrenching period of incarceration in Alabama to the miracle of divine intervention; this story is a testament to the power of faith. This isn’t just a tale about overcoming adversity, but also a discussion about names and identity. His Mom planned to name him Brian Keith, but his name was changed to James Keith Jones Jr. at the last moment... a shift that brought its own complexities and confusions, shaping perspectives in school and prison. 

Religion and beliefs are intricate facets of life, and this episode offers a deep exploration. The discussion travels from youthful exposure to various Florida-based religions, to initial skepticism, and finally, to a profound understanding of the Bible and the power of God during imprisonment. It's a journey that strikes at the heart of religious identity. This episode also brings to life the first Christmas spent in prison as a believer, where joy and peace were found amidst challenging circumstances. 

The episode raises intriguing questions about traditions in Christianity and the significance of the Wise Men. We grapple with faith, uncertainties, and the struggle to keep faith alive in challenging times. We also discuss the importance of understanding the historical accuracy of the Bible's account of Jesus's birth. This episode is a unique blend of personal narrative, religious exploration, and a testimony to the power of transformation. So, strap in for a deep dive into an extraordinary journey of skepticism, acceptance, and spiritual renewal.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 5:03

Well, hey guys, thanks for tuning in to season two, episode four of the Straight Out of Prison podcast. My name is James K Jones and this is my story.

Speaker 2: 5:13

And I am Hailey Jones, and now this story is a part of my story.

Speaker 1: 5:17

So we're calling this episode? What are you going to call it church? Because this is like you know. We talked about my experiences growing up in church and you know how I was anti. Any, I wasn't going to do any of that. But obviously after I came into a relationship with Jesus he started to change. You know some of my thinking on that. And then in the last episode we talked about, you know, I went to prison in Alabama. I was at Kilby and I was there a hot second and they came and told me they're putting me in lockup because the DA in Shelby County was seeking a life without parole sentenced against me. And then we talked about how hopeless that was. But then the miracle at the end of it, the way that God sent me free from that very real prison with just one little flash of a memory and a word. So I'm still kind of reeling from that because that was like something unbelievable.

Speaker 2: 6:13

Right, I mean life without parole. Means the X after your name which means you are never leaving.

Speaker 1: 6:19

Yeah, it means you're dying prison, no matter what.

Speaker 2: 6:21

And it was the three strikes you're out rule.

Speaker 1: 6:24

Yeah, three strikes, you're out rule. But then you know I had studied about Joseph and you know in the Bible how God had a plan for him and even though step by step it looked like that plan was never going to happen, it ended up happening in this. Just how he gave me one word on a technical sentence in Godline. When I call my lawyer, they immediately dropped the charges and let me go. I mean, they didn't let me go free. I was still in prison but I wasn't in.

Speaker 1: 6:50

I wasn't on life without parole row in that hopeless place, because those guys, I would have been there probably a year and a half, maybe more, until my case got settled in Shelby County. So that was just a start out as a depressing, scary, like oh my gosh, and it ended up as almost like something you would read in the Bible. Like you know, I'm locked up. What I'm going to do, I'm going to choose to trust you and then boom, it's over with. Just like that Crazy. So they took me from there. They moved me. When I got out of there, remember I talked about being in the big dorm that looked like a Sam's or Costco.

Speaker 2: 7:28

Yes.

Speaker 1: 7:29

For some reason I didn't have to go back there. They moved me to what they called the chapel dorm, and it wasn't a chapel in there, it was just they called it the chapel dorm because it was right next to the chapel.

Speaker 2: 7:39

Oh, you mentioned that last episode. Yes, I remember.

Speaker 1: 7:42

Yeah, so this dorm was a little more cushy. It was very isolated from the rest of the compound. There were two separate dorms there but we'd shared the same yard so I wasn't locked up with you know 1500 guys, I was more like locked up with like a hundred. So it was a different, just a different experience. I guess in the Alabama department of corrections you could say that dorm was cushy, kind of like. Remember when I was in Florida I talked about BCI.

Speaker 2: 8:10

Oh yeah.

Speaker 1: 8:11

And how. You know. The D dorm had good conditions there. This one was kind of like that, I mean it was. There was not violence, it was not too crowded, it was not too. I mean it was prison, don't get me wrong. But there was something working on the inside of me that I didn't have before. That just kind of made all that other stuff kind of pale in comparison to it. But after I moved to the chapel dorm conditions were great. It was a little isolated, I think. You know I was still very skeptical about church. I was very skeptical about like preachers, just because of my past and the way I grew up Right, really my only like church thing I'd ever been involved in. I went to a Baptist church growing up. And then there was this girl that I liked. One time when I was in seventh or eighth grade they went to a assembly, a God church, and her mama said if I wanted to date her I had to go to church. So I was like I mean, I was an atheist by this time.

Speaker 2: 9:09

You're like, okay, let's go to church.

Speaker 1: 9:11

But we didn't go to a Sunday church, we went to like a Wednesday night church and the preacher started screaming and hollering and spitting and he turned red. And then this lady got up and started speaking in tongues and I'd never saw anything like that before. So it just really freaked me out, but in a funny way, like it didn't really didn't bother me I got tickled and I started laughing. And then her mama started like throwing me dirty looks and then she started laughing and she had like four brothers and sisters. They started laughing and then our whole row was laughing and then the preacher was making laps around the. He was like running around the whole congregation like a crazy person and I just thought it was funny.

Speaker 2: 9:51

But anyways, how old were you when that happened?

Speaker 1: 9:54

Maybe like 14. Okay, but obviously I didn't get to date her after that, so I was, she was on me so but my only like experience with church was like the best church and I had saw that one time and I was like those people are crazy. Like I'm not doing that. I mean, even if I was ever going to do anything I wouldn't be doing that. I was doing all that jumping up and down and hollering and the, the assembly of God, the speaking and the tongues and all that stuff.

Speaker 1: 10:15

And then one time when I was like 10 or 11, my dad was dating a Catholic girl. We went to a Catholic mass. It was actually here in Birmingham, the real pretty St Paul's downtown. We went to a mass on Christmas Eve. It was only Christmas Eve. I was ever with him and I remember how beautiful it was just beautiful, like you know, like the ceremony part of it it was just, it was very pretty. And then you know, she went up there to get the wafers and drink the wine and she yeah.

Speaker 1: 10:42

And she told me I couldn't go cause I wasn't Catholic. So I was like well, you're living in same with my dad, so I love me, why do you get to go? And I don't get to go? So I was just turned off to all the. I didn't want religion, I don't want anything to do with religion, but I had this, this experience I'd had with Jesus, and I had my Bible and I was studying it and I was learning and I was just excited, but at the same time I still was not ready to take that step and be like a church person.

Speaker 2: 11:11

That make sense Absolutely. Well, I want to talk about cause. It's something we have talked about right after this time, and I think it was about this time, but you can clarify something about your your name changing.

Speaker 1: 11:23

Oh, that's cool, that's really that's a very cool. I mean, it was at this time too. So I was born James Keith Jones Jr. That's my legal name, birth certificate, social security card. But that was like a last minute name for me because my mom had a name picked out for me Brian Keith was what she wanted to name me and she has a sister, ann, that had a baby like a three weeks before me and she named that baby Brian Keith and took my mom's name, and so my mom was like, well, screw it, we'll just name him after his daddy. So they named me James Keith Jones Jr, which made him happy. I mean, he wanted that anyways.

Speaker 1: 12:01

But when I was born, because my daddy went, my dad went by James. My granddaddy's name was James Cecil Jones. There are a lot of James is going around. My granny nicknamed me JJ when I was born, my dad's mom, and that name stuck with me. So that was my name growing up. I'm JJ Jones, that's who I am Now. My dad called me Keith, cause that was my middle name, and then I think my me mom down in Fink City she would call me Keith and some of them, but I went around them that much so I thought it was weird. You know they're just calling me that name. I didn't really answer to it. Does that make sense?

Speaker 2: 12:35

Yeah, I mean your family, that I know. Now they still call you JJ, like your mom, your aunt, your cousins. They all call you JJ and I've actually heard a couple of them. I mean can't remember which ones, but at some points call you Keith, refer to you as Keith, which is so weird for me.

Speaker 1: 12:52

My aunt Barbara, I think still calls me, keith, I think she's the only one left that still calls me Keith, and my aunt Brenda, she calls me Keith, but the rest of them I'm JJ, yeah. So when I started first grade my mama told me they're not going to call you JJ in school. So I said, why not? That's my name. And she said they don't do nicknames at school, so for now and when you're in school they don't call you Keith, keith Jones, that'll be your name. So I was like I was like lose those age now. I was like so confused, like why can't I be who I am, like why do I have to be Keith? But you know, you get used to it and that was my name in school. That was my name. If somebody asked me my name, I would say Keith. You know, keith Jones. So the JJ was, I guess, reserved for, like, family and close friends. Call me JJ. And then you know you get to be, you know, 13, 14,. You start thinking that silly anyways to have a name that's not spelled as just J dot, j dot. So I was cool with the Keith. And then you know I went to prison. They call you by your last name. In Florida and really in most prison they call you by your last name. So I was Jones, but there are a few people in Florida that call me Keith. I think Belinda call me Keith. Big O, to this day, still calls me Keith, because that was my name.

Speaker 1: 14:00

There was a time it was in seventh grade I started junior high school, I guess where they send you, you know the elementary school. So they send you for seventh and eighth grade. The first day of school they called calling everybody's name, giving them their assignment, and they called they didn't call my name and I went and told them my name, keith Jones. And then they were like oh, james, k Jones. So I was like, yeah, I don't, I don't go by James, I don't use James. And they, uh, there was a little bit of confusion but they put me in a special ed class and I knew the special ed kids because I'd been with them in sixth grade and I was just like, oh my goodness, I didn't do good on that cat test or essay, whatever test we took. At the end of the year.

Speaker 1: 14:45

So I remember I sat there all day thinking what happened. I always thought I was you know, cause I was in advanced reading and stuff. I wasn't so good at math, but I was like I guess that test showed that I'm, I'm special ed, I'm struggling. I'm or I'm stupid.

Speaker 2: 14:59

Wow.

Speaker 1: 15:00

I mean, but it was really, it was really bothering me, and I went home that day and told my mom and she was confused. So she went back with me the next day and they actually put me in the class for James Kevin Jones, who didn't show up for school that day. He was in special ed and I was James Keith Jones. So then they, they got it all figured out, but I remember that was a. That was a rough day like to be, you know, 13, 14. And you know, I'm not saying there was anything wrong with the kids. I love the kids in there. I mean, I knew them, I'd went to school with them, but it was just like the name thing always got everything confused.

Speaker 1: 15:35

So when I got to Kilby I started meeting people, you know, like other. There was a few other Jesus followers, and then there was a lot of people that had the, the jailhouse, the religion that my mom was afraid that I had. But they were reading my name off my name tag and it said James Jones. So they started calling me James and there was something in me that just was like, don't correct them, Like don't let that be your name. And so it was weird. I had a new, something new on the inside of me. So I kind of had a new life. I was in a new place and now I had a new name and you know I've been using that name ever since yeah, and that's been.

Speaker 1: 16:13

I've known you it's been 24, 24 years ago. But it was weird because I would read the Bible and like in the Old Testament, like Sarah's name was Soraya or something like that, and God changed her name to Sarah, which meant like mother nations or something. In Abraham's name was Abraham, he changed his name to Abraham. And then in the New Testament, peter's name was Simon. Jesus changed his name to Peter. And then, you know like, probably my favorite one was the apostle Paul. His name was Saul. You know, they called him saw and then they started calling him Paul, which I felt like identified with, because he didn't actually get his name changed, the Paul. It was Saul's a Jewish name and Paul's his Roman name. So the same was like he was taking on a new identity after he came in to faith in Jesus and started writing the Bible and that's, and that's how you felt, like you felt like I felt a kinder with him, like okay, and you know he's my besides Jesus, he's my favorite person.

Speaker 1: 18:31

You know I love me some. Apostle Paul, he was the real deal, but anyways, that was interesting to have a new name. I'm James now. Yeah and I started, you know, going by that, and that's been 24 years ago, but it was just. I don't know. It's cool. I mean new me, new life, new name new name, new everything that's awesome.

Speaker 1: 18:47

And then I started trying to go to some of the chapel services. I'm trying to remember like it's just what they did, like they had a lot of chapel services. That kill me, because it was a transitional camp and it's right outside of Montgomery and you know, besides Birmingham, montgomery probably has more churches per capita than anywhere on the world you know right this is the Bible belt.

Speaker 1: 19:07

You know, we in Florida no more and and they had a chapel service almost Not every day but just about every day. They were doing something up in there and I didn't really Wasn't really moved to do a lot of that because I was still so skeptical. But I went to one and they started asking us that we've been baptized and For me you know I'm very literal and well, also, you want to do things the right way.

Speaker 1: 19:35

Yeah, I need everything, I need every. I need all my eyes to be dotted, my t's to be crossed and all things in all categories. Yeah, I mean. Well, you're my wife. You know that better than anybody. You don't know me, but Remember I told you, right after I had an experience with Jesus, I went to the jail bathroom and he wet my head.

Speaker 1: 19:52

Yes, in the sink and I remember being confused like why did you do that? I mean because I didn't understand it and I didn't have anybody explain it to me. But I've been reading the Bible them for like four or five months, so I knew everybody was getting baptized, but I never saw anybody in the Bible going to bathroom and get their head wet, so I felt like I needed um when he did that, he said okay, now your life's gonna be better.

Speaker 1: 20:15

He said everything, everything's gonna be better now, son. And I was like hell. I mean, I'm just, this is so awkward. So I signed up to do baptism with the Church of Christ, which they really stood out, because I clapped in one of their services and they gave me a dirty look like you don't Church of Christ, we don't clap hands. I'm like, well, have you read the book of Psalms? I mean, I mean it was just, you know, doc. Denominations have their different like Things that they do, and I was about to get a crash course, and all that because in prison you get it all you get. You get it all, you get every.

Speaker 2: 20:50

I mean I want to do one episode where I talk about like different denominations and doctrines and dogmas, but I don't know if it's just me, but I have noticed just you know, since we've met that you do tend to know quite a bit about Several denominations. That I definitely think I don't know.

Speaker 2: 21:10

When I know that's because later on not right then like I was studying the Bible in, but later on I Like dove into church history, like well, I think it was not only it's kind of like what we're getting into talk about now yes, I'm sure it was your your diving into church history but also just your experience with these different denominations that were coming in the prison trying to, I guess, witness or disciple.

Speaker 1: 21:33

Prison ministry. I mean, yeah, there was a lot of good ones, but there was a lot of bad ones too.

Speaker 2: 21:37

Yeah, I mean yeah, I mean your experience I'm just saying like has definitely Taught you things that well, I don't think the average person would know about so many I wanted to know.

Speaker 1: 21:48

I wanted to know like how did you, how did we get here? I'm like that about everything. I don't know I got here, how did this house, this work, how's it made? But I signed up to do the church Christ thing. They did like a most formal baptisms where they have a ceremony. They put a white robe on you, don't you? In the baptismal thing. That was kind of creepy because it was like a pool or it looked Like a casket, like it was a wooden thing.

Speaker 1: 22:10

They took the lid off and then I was like I don't want to go first, like, but I think I did go first and then I had to thought, well, at least I ain't getting nobody else's water, so this is good. But they did the baptism thing. That gave me a big certificate and I remember thinking I Still didn't think like it did anything much because I didn't really understand it. I mean, later on I would learn that baptism is a symbolic thing of what happened on the inside of you and you're. You're laying your old life down and you're rising up into a new life.

Speaker 1: 22:42

But Uh, there would later on be a lot of confusion With baptism. That wouldn't be my last one, but we'll talk about that later on. But the I guess the to take us to where, where I was. Then I was confused and I wanted to know and I wanted to do it right and I did not want anybody's religion. I was very like dogmatic and I don't care what we do if it's Jesus and it's in the Bible and we can do it. If it ain't, I don't want any part of it. That makes sense.

Speaker 2: 23:15

It's. It does make sense, but it's so ironic to me that you go from I mean I just got the visual of you tearing Bible pages out, smoking with it to now it was the Bible way or no way, and you weren't even listening to anybody. I mean doesn't start. Contrast of that visual of you throwing Bibles away and smoking, with the pages to now being Dramatic, on the other end of it.

Speaker 1: 23:39

Well, I didn't believe any of that stuff. I thought it was stupid. I mean I thought it was. I mean I just thought it was stupid, but I had never I'd been exposed to church and I'd been exposed to a ton of religion, especially in Florida. Like in Florida you don't just get Christian religion, you can get all the religions you get. You know, I have many religions. There are on seven continents.

Speaker 2: 24:01

Oh, we talked about that because you either get the carpet or you got different things, depending on what and I was.

Speaker 1: 24:06

I was Baptist, so I got a King James Bible I was okay, you were bummed about that. Yeah, I wanted to be. I wanted to be a Muslim so I could get a rug.

Speaker 2: 24:16

You wanted to decorate yourself.

Speaker 1: 24:18

I wanted a Latin rug for my room, but that was just. I mean, it was like that, I didn't know. I just didn't want any set like. I Didn't want anybody to like label me, set their religion on me, call me a Baptist or Catholic or a Methodist or any. I didn't want any church of Christ, you know, I didn't want none of that and I felt like, well, if I don't want none of that, then I shouldn't be going to church.

Speaker 1: 24:47

So there was a I guess the first three or four months there was a lot of tension with me about just the establishment of the chapel and prison church, but there were a lot of good people that came in there that just started teaching me stuff and it was giving me like, you know, this is how you do it, you know, and I learned how to pray, I learned how to like do a deeper dive into the word and learn. And then I Won't say I ever became unskeptical, because even to this day I'm still a bit of a skeptic. Yeah, I mean about religious stuff. Because I feel like you know, why are you here? You know, where are you gonna get out of this? You know, kind of deal.

Speaker 1: 25:29

Yeah and but that's where I was then. But I didn't. There was not Anybody at this point. There would be later on. There was anybody at this stage, early in the game, that I trusted enough to take their advice, like to sit and let them teach me, because I didn't want them to. I wanted to learn on my own and I wanted to be in the Bible. And if it wasn't in the Bible, you know I didn't want it.

Speaker 2: 25:53

But, with that being said, you, you also just said that there were some people that you, I guess, felt good about listening to.

Speaker 1: 26:00

Oh yeah, there's several but this is we're talking about right. When I first my first initial, like dipping my toes in the water, like I was all in for Jesus, like I was a hundred percent. This is real. The scripture is real. It's changing my life. Y'all can argue over all the things, but I know what happened to me on the inside. And Now, this time, I know what just happened to me when I was locked up in that little coffin back there when they were gonna lock me up for the rest of my life, and I've been set free from that. So I felt like I had like a knowledge of his power and that he was real, but I, I just didn't want the. I didn't want the church stuff.

Speaker 1: 26:44

Yeah and you know that led me into a deeper study of what the church actually means. The word church means Ecclesia in the Greek, and it just means God's people that are called out from the world. So we're sitting here in our basement recording this podcast. I am the church because I belong to Jesus. You are the church because you belong to Jesus. So we're having church or we are the church.

Speaker 2: 27:06

Yeah, I'm sure it's. We're being church.

Speaker 1: 27:07

Yeah, anyways, I feel like I'm digressing a little bit, but there was a lot of in this season. There was just like, remember, we talked about my first Christmas being locked up and, yeah, pain and just the agony of that, and Thanksgiving, all the stuff. This was for me. This was like a season of new firsts, but instead of it being awful this time around, these new firsts were beautiful, even though I was in prison. My circumstances hadn't so much changed. I mean, actually, you know, being in prison Florida is better than being prison in Alabama. But this was different because it was just like I won't say I had a new mind, but I would definitely say I had a new heart, like something that changed on the inside of me and we were approaching Christmas and it just felt like Special, like in a way that it hadn't felt since I was like three or four years old, like it was just like here comes Santa Claus, but not Santa Claus, because you know Santa Claus ain't real, but it was, uh, it was beautiful about my first Christmas and there was beautiful. There was a lot of like, I guess, like Little stuff.

Speaker 1: 28:16

I remembered thinking the last Christmas I had had with Patrick, when I worked with him that had been. I guess that would have been four years prior to that Christmas of 1992, you know he was Heavy on me about his Jesus stuff and I didn't believe none of that. And you know, get saved all that stuff. And I remember the last Christmas I was with him I had asked for like that I day or two ahead because I was going to Atlanta for Christmas Eve and he just was like well, you don't believe in Jesus and that's his birthday, so I don't even think you need off.

Speaker 1: 28:49

Like why do you even celebrate if you don't even believe? And I Remember getting aggravated and like what are you talking about? This is the United States of America. You can look on the calendar and the calendar says it's Christmas Day. So we gonna celebrate Christmas, whether we believe in Jesus or not, because it's what we do. And he wasn't being rude, he, I think the way that he did with me, he would try to challenge my thinking. Right, why are you making such a big deal about Christmas when you say Jesus ain't even real? You know, you know he would. And actually that's the best way for me to learn is for somebody like challenge me in those with questions.

Speaker 2: 29:22

I was just thinking that I feel like you receive that well, or that it actually does make you think and you do think about it.

Speaker 1: 29:27

Wouldn't people challenge you like that it won't make me think about it to their face, but I'll go back later and think about it.

Speaker 1: 29:34

So I have learned I Well usually if I mean, it's just the way I may like if I can sleep on something, if you, I mean, we're like that 24-hour cycle yeah, and you're like you're smart, like you're rapid, like you figure, and I'm like gosh, she, I bet she was getting school Like if we're trying to read something on a computer. I'm like I'm through the first two sentences, you've already read four paragraphs. I'm like how, how, but I just I've learned I have a slow processor- and you have a fast processor, and it's just the way we're wired. Yeah but uh, I Feel like we lost well, christmas the first person it felt special.

Speaker 1: 30:14

It was very special. And then I mean, there were like some little practical things. Like I found out we could get Christmas boxes, like in Florida. You got Christmas boxes, but you had to go through this long drawn-up process when you had to have this prunin thing and you had to check off. Everything had to be exactly what was checked off and what they approved. And Alabama it was just these are things you can have, can't be over 20 pounds. So I was like what?

Speaker 2: 30:40

And that was better.

Speaker 1: 30:40

That was awesome. That means they could just keep packing the box. So I remember my mama telling me she went to the post office and like would set it on the thing and then they it wouldn't be 20, so she'd keep adding you know Stuff. But I remember I got a Christmas box from her and I got a Christmas box from antsu and it was just like it was like being a kid at Christmas like I had food, I had Good.

Speaker 2: 31:02

So it was like Christmas, it was it was amazing.

Speaker 1: 31:05

It was um, but I went. There was another like. It felt like like a Christmas miracle. Remember I told you you couldn't get books, like people couldn't send you books. They could order you books from a publisher, and a publisher that's in from the post, that's like the prism rule and that's like across the board.

Speaker 1: 31:20

Yeah but Patrick and Joanne, this was my first Christmas as a believer and they wanted to do something and they didn't ask me if they could do it and they filled up a box with like 35 books out of there, a lot like they were their book. They were like used books, but they were things that they had learned from and it helped them. You know, they were my only mentors in the beginning and they sent me this box that had like these 30 books in it and they were books that I wanted to read because I mean there are books about like the Holy Spirit and you know different, you know understanding, like the scripture and different translate. I mean there's just so much good stuff and they let me have it. And it was just like the books. They let me have the whole box like the Dave and check what was inside it.

Speaker 1: 32:01

Oh, I'm sure they did.

Speaker 2: 32:02

They just didn't care.

Speaker 1: 32:03

But the rule in prison is because you can smell the things in books, like you can put things, they just you don't get books. You can get books but you don't get them, like nope, but they've. I just remember like wow, this is amazing. But it was amazing because I mean, now I had something to do and it was something I wanted to do. That was pretty neat and then I'll never forget, I guess and I try to remember this every year now, especially now that have kids, because I want Christmas to be special and what it's supposed to be the first Christmas Eve service that I went to it was in the chapel and it was this, this guy that came in.

Speaker 1: 32:41

He was, he was a black guy and he still had a little thug in him. You know saying but he was just like, here's the deal, salvation is a free gift. Like God got a free gift for you. And when was the last time you went up to the mall and you went in to JC Penney's and they gave you a free gift? Hmm, never. But he was, like you know, saying that you know, jesus was God's gift to the world and he isn't.

Speaker 1: 33:04

It was a good service, but he got towards the end of his service and he started talking about where Jesus said if somebody slaps your cheek, turn other cheek. You know, turn other cheek on, slap that one too. And he saw I got to be honest with y'all if you slap me, I'm gonna slap you back. Probably gonna cuss you out too, because I mean I hope to be there one day, but I ain't there yet. So there was just I don't know something about his honesty. Like he was saying he wasn't saying it was wrong that what Jesus said. He was saying I ain't got there yet. I want to get there, but I ain't there yet because if you slap me I'm gonna slap you back. And it was something about his. He was just honest and real. And you know, I've always been attracted to stuff like that. Like you know, even if you struggle, just tell truth just say I mean so that that made that a good service.

Speaker 1: 33:56

And then, towards the end of the service, there was a little kid. He looked like he might have weighed 150 pounds at best. He stood up in the middle of the service and he said I have a song that I would like to give as a gift here and well, you have to understand prison culture. You don't do that like you, don't. Inmates, don't run nothing, don't stand up, don't interrupt, especially for your people or the police. Don't try to push your way in. It's just. You know the. The protocol for that would have been to go before the service and get the chapel and say you can sing a song, because you know, in prison everybody wants to sing. Everybody's got a song.

Speaker 2: 34:38

I mean, I've been a teacher of little kids. You know, everybody wants to sing a song sing song yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 34:46

Yeah, they don't really let you do that.

Speaker 2: 34:48

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 34:48

I mean you, they'll tell you, do that back in your dorm, like this is a church service, we ain't doing all that. But there was something about him, the way he stood up and he was like you could tell he was scared and nervous when he stood up, but it was like they couldn't stop him, they had to let him. And so the guy just stepped to the side, he walked up there and he sang it we call that a capoco Acapella, acapella. He sang acapella like with no, with nothing. No, there was. I mean, they had instruments up there but nobody did anything for him. And he's saying oh, holy night, stars are brightly shining. I don't know why it's making me emotional, but it was just like you're making me a match. No, but it was like I got it, I'm just like.

Speaker 1: 35:39

And then I remember thinking Patrick was right, patrick was right, this is what it's about. It was like and if there hadn't been that old holy night, then I would probably would have died in prison, you know it just. But he sang the. He sang the long version and it was like angel singing and there was. It was like there was nobody in there that was not affected by that and there was about a hundred people in there and then he didn't like asked for any credit or anything, he just went back and sat down and I remember looking at him like you could tell he was scared, was probably first time in prison and Like wondering I wonder what his story is like. You know how did how to get here and I never found out his story. He was in a different dorm. But just that, just I don't know just the way that it touched me and it really like made real for me, like the miracle of the birth of Jesus and that's the greatest miracle that's ever been performed. You know, I Don't know it touched me but that to this day that is the most special Christmas I've ever had.

Speaker 1: 36:53

And you know we go to, you know Jamie Golden, our friend, she calls it sexy church. Where we go to church We've been in some pretty amazing services, that church of the Highlands, I mean they they do the Christmas thing, they do it up. I mean I remember the first year I went with you at snow inside the auditorium like I mean what in real snow it was like foam or something. I remember thinking wow, but that little Christmas in that little prison chapel in Kilby. That was the most beautiful thing I think I've ever experienced. And then the Christmas was the same. It was like. You know, you go to sleep like a share. I'll share my goodies with everybody, you know, just like.

Speaker 2: 37:32

I guess I just want to interrupt you. Like you said, it was the most special, and you're making me emotional, but like because it's the greatest miracle, but also because now you're a part of the miracle.

Speaker 1: 37:41

Well, no, that's what it was for me. It wasn't like the oh, it was the personal thing to me, like I am in now because of that and I Don't know, is this I guess it's hard to explain, but I mean the miracle of Jesus. I mean it is a miracle.

Speaker 1: 38:02

There's no, there's no denying that and for me, I'm a skeptic, like I don't. I didn't believe none of stuff. I thought they made all that stuff up, just like the Greeks made up the. You know, yeah, they're, they're people, hercules and Zeus and all that nonsense, but it was. It was beautiful that you know, the day, the Christmas, there was beautiful, the. You know, we got together, we sang songs. We get get late. We didn't really give gifts, but we shared everything we have of each other. You know, I think that was first time I ever mix hot chocolate and coffee. That's the Alabama thing. They didn't do that in Florida, but uh, that was uh.

Speaker 1: 38:46

I guess that was how I just kind of got. You know, I started tiptoeing into the whole church thing and I realized, you know, if you're gonna, if you're gonna be part of Jesus, you know you gotta, you know you got to do the church steps. But at the same time it was like I'm not gonna be a part of Religion or you know any of that. And I had an old man that slept next to me. I would call him pops. He was like. He was like in his 70s and he was always trying to get a laugh. He was a funny guy. I think he'd been in a prison his whole life. But he was like gray-headed old. He slept right next to me and it was that was 1996, christmas 96, and that R Kelly song had come out. I believe I can fly.

Speaker 1: 39:33

Yeah and he would put his headphones on and he would sing that song. But he didn't know we could hear him because he would get loud and he would say I believe I can church the sky, think about it every night and day. And there was something about that song that I like because I was like, if I could fly, I fly to here. Jesus, let me fly. But he was my biggest critic the first couple months because he would. He would tell me that you know all this Bible stuff You're doing, you shucking and jiving.

Speaker 2: 40:02

What's that?

Speaker 1: 40:03

shucking and jiving. Yeah, shucking and jiving means Shocking, means like you're putting on a show. Okay jiving means like you're trying to pretend to be something you ain't. Oh. Okay you ain't never heard of shucking and jiving. No, oh Well that. I don't think so that may be a prison term. Yeah, I mean, but I mean I like it. I can't believe you never heard me say shucking and jiving he just shucking over there. That's all we do, shucking and jiving.

Speaker 2: 40:28

But he sounds like a prison thing.

Speaker 1: 40:30

Yeah, I think it was a prison, but it was. I mean, it was just a saying. It means you're not for real.

Speaker 1: 40:35

Yeah basically, and he used to make me so angry and I would argue with him and we would get in debates over the scriptures and stuff like that. He didn't read the Bible, he wasn't trying to do the Jesus thing, but Right before he left I Think he was there with me about four months he like put his hand on me and he said, son, I Want you to know I've been mess with you just to challenge you, but I want you to know you're the real deal and what you got on the inside of you's real. And when I get out of here and you get out of here, when you start your church, I'm gonna be your first member. But I mean cuz you know I heard this saying I don't. I don't remember where I got the same, but I believe it. But some people, every time I say it, somebody wants to argue with me about it. So don't argue with me y'all. If y'all don't agree, you just say I don't agree and be okay with that Is that you don't really know someone Unless you live with them or work with them.

Speaker 1: 41:31

Because when you live with people, you see them as they are, and when you work with people, like when you're, when you have a job. You're with somebody eight hours a day, five, six days a week. You spend a lot. You get to know them. That makes sense. So in prison we both lived and worked together. So I mean there was no getting away like you couldn't, like if I was putting on what was going on with me, everybody would know it. That makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. So there's something, oh, there's something to that. That's, that's the truth.

Speaker 2: 42:05

I believe you can only shuck and jive so far.

Speaker 1: 42:08

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 42:09

Yeah, what was that guy's name, his first name, I can't remember his name.

Speaker 1: 42:13

We caught him, pop, I mean. I'm sure he's already passed on announcement. He was like in his 70s but he would give me such a fuss like about everything. But he finally, before he left, he was very sincere. I had tears in his eyes and was like I just he had tears in. Yeah, he was like I've been challenging you Because I want you to keep doing what you're doing that little Bible, you holding your hand. You sure do know how to drive it, son.

Speaker 2: 42:39

It wasn't like I was trying to be he said you sure do you know how to drive it.

Speaker 1: 42:43

He told me how to drive it. I mean I think that was a saying in there too. I mean had an officer tell me that one time. You know you might be new at this, but you should know how you should not drive that Bible like.

Speaker 2: 42:53

But I wouldn't ever heard that either.

Speaker 1: 42:55

It what we weren't doing. Stuff like I'm gonna be a, I'm gonna give a sermon at a, like we would just be talking like Did you know this, did you see this? So this is what I learned today. This way you could do this. You know just stuff like that.

Speaker 1: 43:06

Yeah but that was a that initial thing. That was a good, it was a good introduction. I guess you know, by the time 1997 started I figured out you know I'm gonna have to figure out how to Be long with these church people, not all of them, but at least some of them, because this is who I am now like this is and I was, I was really drawn to it. I just didn't want the fake part of it. Does that make sense? Yeah, so I had a lot of Skepticism but it drove me into wanting to know for myself, because Just because you told it to me, I don't care what you say. And just because you say your preacher told you, you know, I don't, I mean, I don't, I don't care about all that.

Speaker 1: 43:53

So that first Christmas I had a lot of questions about Christmas. I don't know if we talked about this now so Historically, like if you were to like look at the Bible, like what it said about the time that Jesus was born, it was probably not December 25th, like that was some Holiday that they just the church, when they became like the big C Catholic Church, they said you know, christmas days, december 25th, we're gonna name that, you know, the day that Christ was born. And you know, growing up you think, yeah, that's what. Jesus was born on. 25th it's the birthday. But then when you start like looking into it you realize oh, they just kind of aside that and it didn't really bother me because I thought if God wanted us to like do it on a certain day, he would have told us the day that makes sense.

Speaker 1: 44:43

So you got some people that will say, huh, I ain't the day. It was like, well, what is the day? It's September. Like well, you're just trying to make up stuff now. So I had a little bit of problem with that. But then after that first Christmas I was like this is like taking communion, it's symbolic, like this is when we celebrate, this is when we remember, and this is a holiday which came from Holy Day you know, this is this is the day to do it, so I didn't really have a problem with that, but then I had a problem with the nativity scenes.

Speaker 2: 45:13

Well, I have to say this is funny a little bit because knowing you're one on the enneagram for all of you that know what the enneagram is I mean. To me it fits right in line with what bother.

Speaker 1: 45:23

This was one of the first things about the Bible that bother me. Okay there's an activity scene. Why did that bother you? Because all my life by this time I'm 24, 25 years old all my life you saw Jesus getting born in a manger, jesus crib, mary and Joseph, shepherds, sheep, goats, cows and the three wise men that came to kneel at the baby Jesus feet to give him Gold, frankincense and murder I mean sounds good to me but that's the story We've always been told.

Speaker 1: 45:53

That's the story We've always been given. But when I started reading the Bible for myself, I realized there was no way that could be accurate. It was because because it didn't happen like that, like they're taking, like the. The gospel was written by four Authors Matthew, mark, luke and John, and it was their count of, you know, physically being there and seeing everything. Matthew's account talked about Jesus being born of a virgin. You know they got the best of him, couldn't get in, so they had to go in the stable and that's where she gave birth to the king of kings and that the angels went and told the shepherds out in the field, which were the lowest of the nastiest of the low people, that they were like people you look down on. They're like. You know, whoever you look down on, people didn't really care for shepherds.

Speaker 1: 46:41

The angels went to the shepherds and said Today, a saviour has been born in the city of David. Go, look, go, look for a baby wrapped in Claws or swaddling rags or whatever.

Speaker 1: 46:55

Yeah, and they ran and they saw and they were freaked out and they went and they saw the baby and they saw Mary and Joseph and it was a beautiful thing and that's recording the book of Luke. But the book of Matthew talks about the wise man. It don't Say that they came to the manger. It actually says, when they got there, that they went up in the house and the child not the baby, the child was sent with his mama and then. But the other thing about that is if the star, the star appeared when Jesus was born. These are people, wise men, were from the east. They saw a star because they were like star watchers or whatever. They saw a star. They had to get from, like India and China and you know wherever they were, all the way to Bethlehem. They couldn't have got there. They didn't have. Even if it would have been now, it would have been hard for them to get their own jet.

Speaker 2: 47:44

So you're saying they would I was.

Speaker 1: 47:45

Men were not there when he was no, they would have had to make a trip like they made a trip. And then when they got there, they went to where they thought the king of the Jews will be born, would be where, in a palace. Right, right, he's the king. They went to the palace where Herod was and he was, you know, little frustrated because he didn't want another king, because he wanted to be king. So he called his like Bible people in there and they told him on, our babies come from Bethlehem. So he sent him to Bethlehem, told him to come back to him, and and then he sent out an order and say go to Bethlehem and kill all the babies, male babies under two years old, slaughter. I'm killing because he wanted to take out Jesus, right? So it was probably at least a year or maybe a month. It was not the wise man didn't show up at the thing, and it was Jesus and Mary, the animals and the shepherds.

Speaker 2: 48:37

You can see you're very passionate about this.

Speaker 1: 48:39

I don't know, it just bothers me I mean even still bother you. We don't have the wise man on our nativity set. We don't well, you got your mom Nativity set. She did, but I always take them, always take them out, they're not there, they weren't there.

Speaker 1: 49:03

I just put it, throw them away. I mean, the wise man is significant, but it don't need to be in the nativity set. I mean it's a miracle, the why, okay? Okay, I'm not anti wise man. I mean, if you read the story, the wise man, these were people that studied the stars, these are like zodiac people and they saw a star appear the night that Jesus was born and they were like, oh, you know, we got to go find that star because you know this is pretty significant. And they searched and searched and came From, you know, three or four or five countries over in them days. That was quite a trip. You might not even make that trip in a lifetime. You might make it back. So that that in of itself is a miracle. It's beautiful. But let's just put it where it belongs, let's put it in, you know.

Speaker 2: 49:51

I mean, details are important. You're so late.

Speaker 1: 49:54

What actually says? If you read in the book of Matthew, it says the wise man in the house. They went in the house. They didn't, so they didn't live in the stable. He was just born in this table.

Speaker 2: 50:05

Wow, I can't wait to go upstairs.

Speaker 1: 50:11

Look at, I just I mean, but I also don't want to. It's like the Santa Claus thing. Like when I was growing up I believed in Santa Claus because they went out of their way to make that such a big Ordeal. And when I found out, when I was nine years old, enough in out, santa Claus wasn't real I was like y'all have been lying to me my whole life. Like how can I trust anything? Like? Now I got to rethink the milk, the cookies, the cake that he ate out of the footprints, the little piece of beer that we found on the on the On the fireplace. And you know, when we got married I told you when we have kids, we're not doing Santa Claus.

Speaker 1: 50:45

Yeah and when Lou May got old enough to start talking about Santa Claus, I told her. I said that ain't real. I said I'll tell you the story of Saint Nicholas. He was a real person and you know this flying through the sky reindeer like something real, and what?

Speaker 2: 51:00

she won't not believe. She said daddy, you just don't believe, but I believe obviously you're not getting any gifts, dad, because you don't believe.

Speaker 1: 51:08

Well, what did I tell her?

Speaker 2: 51:10

You said well, at least when you get older, you're gonna know I didn't lie to you gonna know that, and but I don't ruin it, for I played a game now that you've done.

Speaker 1: 51:18

But I mean, but she'll start that stuff up with me and I'm like, remember, daddy don't believe in all that, because daddy believes in, in reality.

Speaker 2: 51:28

The wise men is a whole other thing. I guess we're gonna have to Until recording right now.

Speaker 1: 51:37

You have felt about the wise man.

Speaker 2: 51:39

Yeah about them being incorporating.

Speaker 1: 51:42

Okay, let's come to it. Let's come to a compromise.

Speaker 2: 51:45

I mean, I don't, I don't know.

Speaker 1: 51:48

I don't mind the wise man being there. Let's just don't put them at the nativity scene, like, let's leave the nativity scene with Mary and Joseph, baby Jesus, the animals and the shepherds, because that's the way the story went, okay and then we can take the wise man and put them on the other side of the room Maybe and say you know, they came later with all these gifts of murder and frankincense and all this.

Speaker 1: 52:10

That's crazy, but I mean, that was where I was at. I had so many like initial Conflicts with this Jesus stuff and it wasn't the actual Jesus stuff. It was the religious people, the inmates, the free world people that would come in and I just needed it to be in the scriptures, from the scriptures, and if it wasn't, then I didn't want anything to do with it. And you know, to an extent I'm still like that way.

Speaker 2: 52:41

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 52:42

I mean.

Speaker 2: 52:43

I mean I might ruffle your feathers a little bit, but I definitely think you still have that tendency, even though, because I tend to be on the opposite end of the spectrum, I should probably be more like driven into scripture, but I definitely am more people oriented in community and, you know, want to learn from others and conversation and relationship and well, but whereas both I think are important, they are, and that's why I need you and you need me, because together we make up team Jones.

Speaker 1: 53:11

Yeah. We sure and no, but I mean you do help me. You help me not be. So what's the word help me not be?

Speaker 2: 53:18

so rigid?

Speaker 1: 53:20

rigid, we're just good word. I feel like Jesus uses that word with me a lot, like you got a not to relax on loosen up your buttons, babe.

Speaker 2: 53:26

That's a song I.

Speaker 1: 53:29

Went through a lot of that but honestly, it helped me determine what I believe and it wasn't because somebody else told me it. Yeah it was because I found it, I knew it, I learned it and then, a hundred percent of time, god would confirm it to me.

Speaker 2: 53:47

I love that.

Speaker 1: 53:47

Yeah, and Not always when I ask him to, but I mean event, or either he would like change my understanding where I got to understand something, but I don't know. I Still don't know anything to do. Religion, I think, honestly, I think religion is one of the meanest things in the world. I mean it excludes people, it hurts people. You know so many wars have been fought in the name of religion. I mean even the our most recent like 9-11, all that stuff that was religious stuff.

Speaker 1: 54:17

Yeah that wasn't Like economic or that was religious stuff.

Speaker 2: 54:21

We're definitely gonna unpack that, and In the near future.

Speaker 1: 54:25

Well, religion bottom. Yes, I want to do a whole one on like the nomination, where I learned about denominations, doctrines and like dogmas and all that stuff. But I would take things that Jesus said more serious than because I didn't. Really I didn't spend a whole lot of time reading the Old Testament because I felt like that Wasn't for me. I mean I would like try to learn the stories but I would read. When I read the Bible I Wanted the, the red letter words, because those are the words that Jesus spoke. Those are the ones that have to have the weight. I mean y'all can go find whatever you want in the book of Joel or whatever. But especially that those that formative time for me, like I needed to know what he had for me, what he wanted me to do, and I would take things so literal, like where he On his sermon on the mount, where he said don't pray for other people to see you. I took that literally like I got him.

Speaker 1: 55:22

I learned how to pray while I was at kill me there and I mean I learned a little bit when I was in in the first couple months there when I was in Montgomery County jail, but I learned how to pray but I didn't want to be the guy that was gonna be up praying and hollering and carrying on. Like he said, when you pray, go into your secret place and your father Will be there with you and he'll listen to you and he'll answer you. So I would get under my covers at night and just pull the covers up and pray. That was why I prayed. And then I Started getting bothered because it said you're supposed to pray in the morning, like in the Psalms and stuff. So I started making myself wake up before everybody so I could have prayer time by myself, me and Jesus.

Speaker 1: 56:01

And those were some of the sweetest Times that you know, because I always thought, all right, well, I got this Jesus thing going on, but I didn't do all that praying stuff. Like how do you do all that? Were you. But I learned like prayer is Just talk to me and then be quiet and let me talk to you. So it's just like sitting down with you and I mean I do that to this day. Like I, I try to get up at least an hour before everybody else so I can have my Jesus time and it's not like a religious thing, but I just need to sit and Process let him.

Speaker 1: 56:37

Talk to me, talk to him, get a little understanding from the word and you know that I'm ready to face my day.

Speaker 2: 56:44

Yeah, get a word.

Speaker 1: 56:46

Yeah, I mean, I Think I was like so convinced of the power of Not just a scripture but of Jesus talking to you like his spirit, even though I didn't really understand what the spirit stuff meant. It was just like what happened in the last episode, where I got one word right from Jesus.

Speaker 1: 57:08

After I read the story of Joseph about a, a sentencing technicality, and it set me free that one little word, one little. It wasn't even like a Word, it was just like I had a memory flash and I knew that he was trying to show me something. I call my lawyer and they popped me out of life without prison. I mean life without prison, just like that it was over and that I mean.

Speaker 2: 57:35

That is crazy, that's neat.

Speaker 1: 57:36

So miracle, during that time, you know, at kill be you don't have a job. So, unless your permit party, I ended up being at kill be for six months and you generally stay there two or three weeks. Still don't know why I was there that long. Most people are not. But like, looking back on it, hindsight now, that was my Foundation. That was my time to like get grounded and get, you know, start like let my faith get some roots in it. I learned a lot from a lot of people about what to do, but I probably learned more from a lot of people free world and inmates about what not to do. That makes sense and I've always done well with having like a positive and negative example, because you know you got like somebody on this side it's all about the, you know the word, the word, the word, and then some on this side it's all about you know, let's just flow with the spirit, and I know I need to be somewhere in the middle of that like.

Speaker 1: 58:36

I don't need to be. I Hate to use politics, but you know you have like right wing people, left wing people. Yeah like you don't need to be all the way over on the left, you don't need to be all the way over on the right, you need to find the middle, and that's where I am, that's where Jesus is. I believe that I mean even in politics. I believe that, like I'm Independent 100%, you ain't gonna label me with no Republican or Democrat or any of that stuff. Well, I think our time's about up.

Speaker 2: 59:07

Yeah, that was very enlightening.

Speaker 1: 59:09

Sorry about the wise men stuff. I feel like I did go off on a little bit of a tangent there, but I would. I would come to find like Hundreds of those over the next few years and I just didn't want it like. I didn't want like whatever we've like Embellished and made up and added to and, you know, put our own little spin on it. You know I wanted like the no spin, like just give it to me straight, like what it is and and really Falling Jesus for me has always been very I mean, I've complicated at times but he always gets me back uncomplicated, it's very simple. It was a I Feel like he always takes me back to. The first miracle he performed was when he was with his mama and they was out of wedding.

Speaker 2: 59:57

Water and wine baby.

Speaker 1: 59:58

They were having a party and they ran out of wine and his mama came to him. It's like look here, jesus, we out of wine. And he said woman, shut your mouth. He didn't say shut your mouth, but he was stern way. He said woman, my time ain't yet. It's not the same, you know, my time ain't yet. And she just kind of looked at the servants and says whatever he says to do, do it. And she spun around and walk off and he was like Well, in my mind when I read the story, it's like she spun around, like I'm done with this conversation. That's how my mama will talk to me. You know, we're done with this conversation. Just just do something about the wine. Yeah, it's when I walk off and told, but she told them whatever he says to you, do it. And it was so complicated what he told me to do. He said go feel that. What? Go put some water in the jars. All right, now pour them out and it was why.

Speaker 2: 1:00:48

So it's like you mean, it was simple what he told, so simple.

Speaker 1: 1:00:52

No, but I'm saying you would think it would be complicated. I could go turn water into wine. We need to have some kind of complicated process, but it was so simple and really that's all it is. It's whatever he says to you do it, mm-hmm. He says to you forgive, forgive. He says to you send that text, even though you don't like them. Send the text. He says to you. Whatever he says to you, it's just as simple as Just do it and then it always yields results. So you know anything else to add.

Speaker 2: 1:01:25

Yeah, that was a lot to.

Speaker 1: 1:01:27

Still worried about your wife. Man Not worried.

Speaker 2: 1:01:30

I just, I don't know what, I don't know.

Speaker 1: 1:01:33

All right. Well, in the next episode we're gonna talk about, like free world church people and some might experiences with them, especially initially, and like the prison Jesus followers and I said in the last one that I Encountered a new phenomenon that I would tell you about later. We're just gonna have to keep them to live, to leave you hanging on that one, because I'm not ready for that.

Speaker 1: 1:01:53

I'm trying, it's coming Well. The problem with the podcast is it's it's hard to say what you're gonna say next because we're not really scripting it. We're like going chronologically over time and I've been spending a lot of time in my journals and Going back through you know what, like trying to put myself back in the mindset of you know, I'm at this time, I'm four months in with the Jesus thing, I'm going to prison and then all the stuff that I didn't know, that I do know now. I mean nothing, know everything, but I knew I know a lot more than it did, then you're revolting against wise man.

Speaker 1: 1:02:26

Yeah, so y'all. If y'all are putting the wise man at the manger, y'all wrong. Anyways, thanks for tuning in. This is fine. We're really enjoying the feedback we're getting from you guys. Please keep it coming. If there's, you know, any comment suggestions, you can look us up on our Facebook Instagram straight up with some podcasts, or you can go on our website teamjonesco Not comm team jonesco and you can send us a direct message there. Appreciate you, thank you, See you next time. Bye, hey guys. Thanks so much for tuning in to the straight out of prison podcast. For more exclusive content, head over to our website, teamjonesco.

Speaker 2: 1:03:06

Yes, you can subscribe by clicking on the become a patron button and that's gonna get you access to our for real. Real, which is very different than the highlight real Some very juicy content there good stuff, or you can look us up on Facebook and Instagram straight out of prison Podcast yes, that takes the story to a whole new level where you can see some of the people that James talks about in his story and see some of the places that he's been. I've been loving it in your prison recipes. Yeah, the things good stuff.

Speaker 1: 1:03:38

We'll see you soon guys.

Speaker 2: 1:03:39

Thanks, bye.