An Exploration of Christian Subculture and Faith Transformations in Prison

What happens when faith finds a home within the confines of a prison? This episode takes you deep into the heart of Christian subculture in prisons, offering a glimpse into the transformative power of faith amidst confinement. We delve into the formation of social groups based on shared beliefs, the intriguing religious disparities between Florida and Alabama, and the unique experience of spiritual growth within prison - an experience we coin as 'spiritual schizophrenia'.

We journey together through the corridors of prison brotherhood, examining the crucial role prayer plays in this closed community. We shine a light on the skepticism surrounding "jailhouse religion" and the criticism it faces. We also explore the shared experience of Jesus as an anchor of hope in a place surrounded by uncertainty. We don’t shy away from the uncomfortable, discussing negative experiences with religious figures and how these can shape personal beliefs and spiritual practices.

Lastly, we guide you through the complex labyrinth of racial and religious divisions within prison, discussing the tales of white supremacists known as Christian Identity, and black supremacists, the Muslim Five Percenters. Our exploration into the transformative power of faith doesn't stop there. We recount how faith can catalyze change even in dire circumstances, and how anticipation for spiritual experiences becomes a norm in prison life. This episode is more than just a conversation; it’s an enlightening journey into the intertwining of faith, culture, and prison life. Join us and let's embark on this intriguing journey together.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 4:57

Well, hey guys, thanks for tuning in to the Straight Out of Prism podcast working the season 2, episode 5. I'm James K Jones and this is my story.

Speaker 2: 5:12

And I'm Hailey Jones, and this is his story. That has now become a part of my story and, as you like to say, it is now our story.

Speaker 1: 5:21

I got a text from a guy that was basically trying to be on a podcast and I mean I responded. I try to respond to everybody. I don't want to like discount anybody, but he said I'm just waiting on her story to become your story and I was like well, bro, just stay tuned.

Speaker 1: 5:42

But, in episode 4, we talked about my first like get my feet wet with the church people and you know so idea of church, because you know the way I was raised, I was not interested in any of that and just navigating through that, and now I'm still at Kilby and I'm slated to go to St Clair correctional facility, which there are three max camps in the state of Alabama St Clair, west, jefferson and Atmore and they sent me to a max camp because my crimes were on robbery. So that's like puts you in the top tier. Not good, yeah, as far as security, like you're a violent criminal, even though I knew I was not a violent criminal, but that's how they classify you. So I was getting ready to go to St Clair's, where they told me I was going to go, but ended up staying at Kilby for like six months, which is really like unheard of.

Speaker 2: 6:39

So here's something that I think is I've been actually thinking about since we recorded the last episode, and that is and it's something we've touched on before in terms of, I mean, in the free world, as you call it, and as like locked up world that in both that there are like cultures and subcultures.

Speaker 1: 7:00

It's two different worlds.

Speaker 2: 7:01

It's two different worlds, but it's the same in terms of people just creating these cultures, depending on what they identify with, and so, for example, you talked about in previous episodes, or whenever we talked about it that you talked about. So people will form to groups, whether it be like the whites and the blacks or where they're from like different cities and gangs.

Speaker 2: 7:27

So whichever group identified them, they identify themselves with. There are these subcultures that are created, and I find that so fascinating because I think that's also true. I've never been in prison, but that's also true Well, in prison that's what you run with.

Speaker 1: 7:44

You run with your people, Right Well that's true outside too.

Speaker 2: 7:48

It is.

Speaker 1: 7:48

It's the same, it's like you know, you run with your people, like whoever your people are, and there's something, there's something fascinating about it, because you know, I've heard it said like you can measure your future in the sum total of the five people that you're closest to, because the people that you relate to, that you hang around with and spend time with, you're going to start talking like them, act like them, even like believing like them.

Speaker 2: 8:12

So, and we tend to be drawn to people that you know believe the same things, or going for the same things, or whatever. But where I'm getting at with this is that, since you got saved, like every Christian like introduced this whole new subculture, I mean within the prison of people. You were introduced and like things that were happening, which is also true outside, but like it is. And that's what I'm curious to learn more about is like this Christian subculture within the prison.

Speaker 1: 8:44

Well, my thing with that was I didn't even know that subculture existed.

Speaker 2: 8:48

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 8:48

Like when I was at BCI there were people that did all that Jesus stuff but I was thought I was, you know I was going to be running from that. I wasn't. I've never been at that time, I've never been interested in any of that. Like I don't. You know, I don't hear all that. Like big O, one of my best friends, he would always go to chapel and he would say I got to get my spirit fed because I'm spiritual and I'll be like whatever that means was whatever that means. You just keep that to yourself because I'm not, I'm not interested in none of that because I'm not a deep spiritual person. But then I, you know, in the Montgomery County jail I had this experience with Jesus and for me it was real. It was not like some religious experience, like something changed on the inside of me and just trying to navigate through that while I was at kill. Because there was a lot of like, for some reason there was more like religious stuff going on in Alabama than there had been going on in Florida.

Speaker 1: 9:46

See, that's interesting too to me Well, alabama's in the Bible Belt.

Speaker 2: 9:50

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 9:51

And for me Florida is like you know, out of all the states in the union. You know, like if you look at like Georgia, alabama, mississippi, tennessee, like we pretty much believe the same act, the same would do the same things. But Florida is like its own country almost like Florida. I love Florida, just by the way.

Speaker 2: 10:09

Well, I'm from there, so you should Well, yeah, got me a Florida girl.

Speaker 1: 10:14

But in Alabama it was much different in that you know, like Christianity, following Jesus, saw stuff was the norm. So and there were so many there at Killby, there were so many like ministries coming in trying to help people. It was just, it was, it was flooded with all that stuff. So people trying to help, I mean.

Speaker 2: 10:41

So you're saying different like religious sex or different like I mean.

Speaker 1: 10:45

I mean because well, in the Christian world. It'd be like denominations, you know, you might go and I've explained this. I had a friend that I tried to explain students and understand, like growing up because I was growing up spiritually there at Killby Like it's like a spiritual, like schizophrenia, because like if you have an experience with Jesus and you join a church they teach you stuff and you learn. But in prison we got taught all the different left right up down, all around, and it was like an analysis on Sunday. So you might have somebody come in on Sunday morning to do Sunday school that will tell you you know, you know God is love, he loves you, he cares for you, he's got a plan for your life and you'd be like filled with hope. And then you go to the 11 o'clock service and they would say like no, he he's, he don't, he just wants you to suffer. You know, you just got to hold on till you get to beautiful land.

Speaker 2: 11:43

So these are what like different denominations are like they believe different things and they came in to try to help, but they're saying two totally different things.

Speaker 1: 11:52

Yeah, pretty much. I mean they're telling their like version of what they've experienced and for me it was always a life thing, it wasn't like a religious thing. So it was. It was tough to navigate through.

Speaker 2: 12:08

Okay, just pause really quick. Can you use the word religious a lot, and maybe not now. I don't know if this is the time, but I would like to hear, like unpack, what you mean when you say that.

Speaker 1: 12:19

Well, religion for me is like it's people that create a system or a pathway or, you know, like a track to getting the God. And what I hadn't learned through my by the time this time I was like six months in, so I was not like a Bible scholar or anything like that but I understood from the scriptures and from what I'd experienced was that God did that for me. Like I don't even have to worry about that. He did it for me, so I just need to receive the gift and move on Like he's already paid for my sins. He's already fulfilled every Old Testament demand. You know all that was nailed to the cross. He did it. Jesus did it when he died and he paid the price, and so there's no reason for me to go back and try to pay the price.

Speaker 2: 13:10

So, coming back to the question about religious people, so you feel like the religious people, and from your definition of it, are people that feel like they need to do something, or not do something?

Speaker 1: 13:23

Work for it.

Speaker 2: 13:24

Right To get.

Speaker 1: 13:25

Work for it and for me. I couldn't work for it Because I was too far gone, like I had committed too many like grievous, like Right.

Speaker 2: 13:35

You knew that, if it was up to you, it was yeah, the nail was in the coffin. I'm out.

Speaker 1: 13:41

Like you know, whatever needs to happen here, I'm out Like I've done too much because I mean I had done so many I had so many like secret things that I'd done, like you know I go back to you know, my cell partner, valenza. He was studying Buddhism and he was telling me about karma and you know, whatever you put out is whatever you get back and I was like, oh shit, I'm screwed, like that ship has sailed from me.

Speaker 2: 14:07

It's not going to be good. I've done too many things.

Speaker 1: 14:09

So there was no, there was no redemption for me. There was no, no hope, no hope, no help. But when I met Jesus, he let me know, and not just like through some booty booty kind of experience, but you know, in studying the scriptures he did it for me, he took care, he paid the bill. It's like if you go out to eat, you know your dad. I never knew. I met your dad one time before he passed away. But I've been fascinated with hearing stories of Grant Hobart because he is the grandfather of my children and he was very generous and when you went out to a meal with him he would always pick up the tab, he would pay the bill, and so it would be like Jesus paid the bill for me. He paid the tab. Like he paid the tab, he paid the tip, everything. There's nothing for me to pay. I just have to receive the gift and use it to be a blessing to other people.

Speaker 2: 15:06

Well, you've made this very personal and have gotten me emotional when you say that. No, but to me it just communicates what are you saying? Is that for you it was very personal and you feel like something was done for you?

Speaker 1: 15:19

It was.

Speaker 2: 15:20

It was already ruined and could never have done for you.

Speaker 1: 15:21

I couldn't. I couldn't redeem myself, yeah, and I couldn't. There was no way. I mean you can take that on yourself, like when you were out at the Brio's in Birmingham with your dad and he paid the bill and paid the tip, and then you go try to pay more. That would have offended him, right.

Speaker 2: 15:40

I would never do that.

Speaker 1: 15:42

You would. Some people would Like I need to. I need to figure out how I can, you know, compensate. It's the same with God. Like Jesus paid the price, he paid the bill. He got the tab, it's paid. Like that was his last words on the cross, was it? I think it said it. He said it in the air of man. He said to tell us that, which meant it is finished. The bill is paid Like it's done, we're done, and so for me it was okay, I'm good, it's done, let's move on and see what do you got for me now.

Speaker 2: 16:17

Well, what's interesting about that? So you are of that mindset, but yet there was all these, I guess, people and groups coming into the prison.

Speaker 1: 16:26

Oh, they flood the prison. So which is, which was not only true for you, which is true for everyone.

Speaker 2: 16:32

That's why I said it's almost like how I see it. It's like this whole new subculture that was probably there there before, but you just didn't know it because you didn't care, and yeah, that was not my world. But now you become aware because now it's become introduced to you. So tell us a little bit about some of that new subculture as you were experiencing it coming in.

Speaker 1: 16:54

Well, there was a, there's a prison brotherhood in, or there was in Kilby.

Speaker 2: 16:58

A brotherhood. What is like? What is the brotherhood? Like the church, like the church folks.

Speaker 1: 17:03

But I had a huge problem with and I was trying, I felt like I had like this new, like conscience, and I felt like that guy was like okay, look, you got to give them a chance. Like this is, this is, these are my people, and so I would try, but I would get so annoyed with these like especially, like I mean I had a problem with the inmates. I had a problem with the people coming in because I was such such a skeptic. My problem with the inmates was there were so many like like remember when I told you, when I had experience with Jesus, and I told my mom like she was freaked out, like you can't do the jailhouse, you can't do the jailhouse religion thing.

Speaker 1: 17:44

That's bad, that's bad and you don't play with, you don't play with God, and I was like I'm not playing with anything, like I've had an experience with Jesus and it's real, and I didn't really understand what she was talking about until I got to Kilby and I met a lot of people that had like the jailhouse religion version, because I met people that would you know, they did this, like they had these like um, I don't know what you call it, like there are things that they did every day.

Speaker 1: 18:15

They would gather together and make these long prayers and they would pray and they would be loud and obnoxious and just get on everybody's nerves. And then they would. It was like they were coming against people, like they would pray against the spirit of the police and the spirit of the you know all their mates, and it was just offensive and I didn't want it. I tried, I went to a couple of those prayer circles but you know, I did a cup one or two of the prayer circles where they went around you pray for the prostitutes in Italy's and the homeless people in India and I just couldn't.

Speaker 2: 18:46

I was just like this is not, this is not me but not having that experience, I mean from my like perspective and what I think. When you say that, I mean I can somewhat understand, because it feels like if you're in a situation where you're not free and you whatever all these people's situation are yeah, I mean bottom line, they're in prison and you Like cling to something either to be a part of or to yeah, for whether it's real or not real.

Speaker 2: 19:14

It just makes. I can see how I would want to probably like attach myself to something that I felt like was meaningful on some level.

Speaker 1: 19:23

Well, I didn't, I didn't want to think to do that. I Mean, I went through I mean two or three weeks of that and I was like this is, this is not me, it's not I'm doing, and there was so there was so much like judgment and criticism and like condemnation and all stuff and Really what helped me was I started asking people questions like so you're like the inmate pastor, like you're leading this movement here, tell me about that. And I remember this one guy in particular.

Speaker 2: 19:54

Pastor oh, there were so many inmate pastors obviously I've never even heard you say that term like they called themselves inmate pastors. So they just said, okay, I'm gonna be an inmate pastor. Well, they would say, I'm gonna call me pastor.

Speaker 1: 20:05

I'm called of God to be a pastor and all stuff. And I was like, well, what does that even mean? Like you know, if you read it in the Bible, it means that you have people that you're leading but nobody's following you. Um, it was just annoying. But I remember this one guy in particular. I Was trying to understand, trying to figure it out, and I mean I questioned him like so you came to prison and you had this experience with Jesus, and now you know everything's good, and he was like, oh no, I've always been saved. So I was like, really, and I came.

Speaker 1: 21:58

What I came to find out was that he had been in and out of prison like seven or eight times. And so I was like, how you come to prison and have a spritz with Jesus and get out and then come back like that don't make any sense. And so he was like well, you know, you just want to get a prison. The last time I got out, I got off the bus and you know I found a girl and you know I was having sex and then I was. He called it whoring, that's what he said. And, um, it was, there was no change. It was just like a, it was like a religious thing.

Speaker 2: 22:31

So this speaks to again. I feel like what I said in the beginning of like of the culture thing is a culture. I guess I should look up the definition of culture, but it's like where you're at and clearly that subculture within the prison is something that he Identified with or found some kind of, so he must have gotten something out of it to continue.

Speaker 1: 22:51

What's the way to survive and coming back? Yeah well, I found out later on. I didn't find this out so I went to my permanent camp. But later on I find out, like you had the bloods to crypts, the white supremacists, the black supremacism had Christians and they were all like it's like a gang and I'm like I'm not gonna be a part of that. I'm not, I'm not interested in that, that's not my thing, that's not what I'm not doing, that I'm not doing that. And it was in some ways it was a way to be protected and it was a way to like cover it. And Just let me say I don't know if I've said this yet I talked about kill me.

Speaker 1: 23:26

Going to prison in Florida was an experience, but the way that the prisons are ran in the state of Florida it's like the CEOs and the prison is like military and it's very. You know you have to tell the line, you have to do what they ask you to do, but they protect you and take care of you. Like you don't have to worry about the things that I found that you had to worry about in Alabama. In Alabama it's just like a Like the Wild West is awful. I mean, we'll get into that later, but I've never Seen anything like that. So a lot of people would adopt this Christian brotherhood thing like as a gang, as a way to be protected, and For me it was not any of that.

Speaker 1: 24:10

I had an experience with God, I found life and I was trying to follow that life and it would lead me away from the like normal inmate Jesus cultures people yeah and so what ended up happening was we created, kind of created, our own culture within a culture, and it was not like, well, I wasn't like trying to go out and like you know, cuz I was like I remember my meanwhile told me one time You're gonna. I always knew you gonna be a preacher and I was like I'm not, I'm not signed up to be no preacher. I've had an experience with Jesus and I'm gonna keep following that, but I'm not, I'm not trying to do any of that.

Speaker 2: 24:52

Try to tell James K Jones what he's gonna be.

Speaker 1: 24:54

Well, don't tell me a preacher, because at that time I'll tell you gonna be anything.

Speaker 2: 24:58

Let's be honest.

Speaker 1: 25:01

My staff when I had, when I had Kyra, was my staff the people, which is a restaurant. Yeah, I'm sorry, the people would. They would tell me, you know, if we want you to do something, we have to let you think it's your idea before we get it done. If you think it's your idea, it'll happen. If, if you think it's our idea, it won't actually this is a funny little side note.

Speaker 2: 25:18

I don't want to go too far off, but before we were married and Denise, who actually introduced us, who was your manager, I guess she was the manager and yeah, and so I remember, like following on social media, that y'all are gonna start a buffet and y'all were taking submissions and Suggestions, I guess, of what to call it. Yeah and so like everyone was like oh, you know what to call it. And she's like thank you so much, we got so many ideas and but like.

Speaker 2: 25:46

But then when she made the announcements of like we're gonna name it. I think it was the delicious goodness. She's like, which, of course, was James's suggestion. So thank you for all your input, but bottom line, james, I just thought it was so funny because it's the same, I don't I don't think I mean there's like a stubbornness that you can see from other people, but I feel.

Speaker 1: 26:08

I feel like I have to follow my own way and it's not even for me. It's not even gonna be my way, it's gonna be whatever.

Speaker 2: 26:14

You know, the plan is for me right, like I don't need to play with that I don't need to follow the plan for nobody else, because that's your plan.

Speaker 1: 26:22

So I mean that there was a lot and maybe that and then you got married. We're getting that in the real real, but at this time I just didn't, I didn't want that, I didn't, I didn't. I got so annoyed with that and it was just like y'all just spin your wheels and I'm not in the spinning my wheels. That makes sense.

Speaker 2: 26:40

Yeah, so tell me, let's talk about some of the things, though, during this time at Kilby with this new subculture, things that impacted you in a Positive way, that were, you know, or I guess, positive and negative. We could give me an example of both that.

Speaker 1: 26:54

Well, I guess we start with a start with a negative like my, my filter as far as like people that did ministry and people that were, you know, like preachers and stuff like that, was all negative.

Speaker 2: 27:05

You mean outside of prison or inside of prison?

Speaker 1: 27:08

both Okay because I always felt like they had like some like motive, like something they were trying to get from me. And you know, growing up it was money. Because you know, I grew up in the 80s you probably don't remember this because you were born in 1980 but the the televangelist thing was a big like deal during that time, like people on TV like preaching Jesus, but then at the end they would always want your money and I remember being a little kid thinking why do they need my money? I mean, they're driving around and all these Mercedes and you know they're, they're making it happen why they need my money. But my number three, my mom's number three husband, his name is Mitchell, he was the redneck I talked about my mom, she says was my fault that she married him because they were they were living together.

Speaker 1: 27:54

They bought a trailer and you know my mom would say it's a new trailer and I'm like it's still a trailer, we still live in a trailer. But uh, he had a sister, martha Joe, that I loved her. She was so sweet so she was so good to me and I guess she was like my step aunt. You probably must have anything.

Speaker 2: 28:13

I don't know they weren't married that long.

Speaker 1: 28:14

So it didn't. It was not that really, but this was during the time of the gym and Tammy Faye Baker, like the Ptl craze and she was a follower of Ptl like she gave him her money and I think I Don't know this for sure, but I think, like her family bought one of their cabins and their Jesus world they built in in North Carolina, wherever they were, and and they would get in these arguments, like these heated arguments, because he was anti any of that and she would like going on. These are he's a man of God, like he's preaching the gospel, he's saving people and he would say, well, why does he need your money? Like, why are you sending them all your money? And why is his wife up on TV with all those diamonds and all the flashes? And she's like, oh, mitchell, hushed, those are cubic zirconium similar, not real diamonds. And you know, like why is he driving the Mercedes? You know God is blessing him. You know they, somebody gave him that Mercedes and Just watching them arguing I can stand him. So I wanted her to be right, you know.

Speaker 1: 29:19

But then the whole gym and Tammy Baker scandal broke and you know it was on every news channel. Say not live and all stuff and just it just jaded me against any kind of like ministry or anybody. You know, I was just and I just didn't trust any of that stuff. And so you'd have these people coming in and I Was at a place where I felt like I need to give people a chance and I needed you know it was this. You know it was in my heart to, like you know, try to move past that and forgive and love and do all things.

Speaker 1: 29:53

So I started. I found Christian radio during this time because I didn't have a job at kill, because I was in transit, so I didn't have anything to do. So I developed my own little Disciplines I'd wake up in the morning, do my prayers, and then there was. I found Christian radio and in Montgomery there was like five or six Christian radios and they would do like you know, one of them was like Old-time gospel, one of them's like African-American, you know gospel, and then one of them actually did like this Block in the morning for like three or four hours where they did different teachings.

Speaker 2: 30:29

God bless the Bible Belt yeah, all things are available.

Speaker 1: 30:34

It was good. But so I would get my notebook out in my Bible and I would spend two or three hours in the morning listening to these preachers and then I'll take notes and that would be what I studied in the afternoon. But there was this one pastor, his name was David Jeremiah and he was a very good Bible teacher. Actually, I don't think he was like one of those radio preachers. I think they actually just taped his church stuff.

Speaker 2: 30:59

Is he still like alive?

Speaker 1: 31:01

He is Okay. He came out with a series that he was doing on the book of Joseph and I was fascinated with Joseph because of the. Remember when I was in lockup and was looking at life without parole and Joe Enquilette wrote me a letter and told me you know, study the book of study about Joseph. Your life sounds like.

Speaker 2: 31:23

The chef. You worked for a wife?

Speaker 1: 31:25

Yes, yeah, and so I had read that story seven or eight times by this time and I was fascinated with the story and I felt like there was something, some parallel between him and me. And David Jeremiah, who I listen to every day, announced that he was going to start a study on an exhaustive study on the life of Joseph, and I was so excited.

Speaker 2: 31:48

Keyword exhaustive yeah.

Speaker 1: 31:50

No, it's going to be like. It was going to be like three or four weeks of teaching on the life of Joseph and he wanted you to have his companion study guide that went with what he was teaching. So I wrote him a letter, like a very sincere letter. I told him my story and I asked if I could have a copy of the workbook. So they sent me back a letter.

Speaker 2: 32:13

Because Nmate wanted to study Joseph.

Speaker 1: 32:15

I did Nmate.

Speaker 2: 32:16

Jones wanted to study.

Speaker 1: 32:17

I was interested, I wanted it. So I'm pretty sure he didn't send me the letter, but some of his staff sent me the letter and they basically put a little Jesus tract in there and told me that I need to confess my sins and believe that Jesus Christ died and was buried and raised and that I would be saved. And they said that's all we got for you. We don't share our materials with people in prison.

Speaker 2: 32:37

Okay, but what did they really say? They say we don't share our materials with people in prison. That's what they said it was like that's what they said.

Speaker 1: 32:45

Yes, it was, but that hurt me so deeply it like turned me off from any of that.

Speaker 2: 32:52

That's hard for me to believe. I mean, I believe you, but just like it just sounds crazy to me that someone say like oh, we don't share that with people in prison. That sounds very.

Speaker 1: 33:00

Well, no, I don't know if they said. I think they said they don't share it for free.

Speaker 2: 33:05

Oh, for free.

Speaker 1: 33:06

And my thing was show me the money. I can tell my mom I'm going to order this for me. I mean, it's not that big a deal about spending the $50 or whatever you want for your little material.

Speaker 2: 33:15

You were just excited and told them and said you're falling along and want to be apart and they were like no go for you, unless you can send me some money.

Speaker 1: 33:24

It crushed me. But no, but even even to this day, like that has always bothered me, and that's been 25 years ago that has always bothered me is I think it was two or three months ago. You know, with Amazon you can find anything you want. I thought I wonder if that Joseph study companion guide is on Amazon. I looked it up and it was, and I actually clicked on it to order it. And then I was like David Jeremiah will never get my money.

Speaker 2: 33:51

They would never be, in my sense, in some bitterness here.

Speaker 1: 33:54

Yes, I mean. Well, here's the question I probably need to forgive J, j Jeremiah. Okay, jesus, I forgive David Jeremiah, but that, the way he, the way that letter, made me feel it was basically. You know, I've heard the saying you'll forgive J. You'll forgive what people do, you'll forgive what people say, but you'll never forget how people make you feel. Yeah, and he made me feel like I was nothing, like you. May be part of Jesus, jesus might have redeemed you and saved you, but you are not going to get my study guide.

Speaker 2: 34:21

You're not getting no Joseph workbook from us unless you pay the money. So my question is did you still listen to the study and follow along?

Speaker 1: 34:28

No, I was done with it. After that, I actually went through it. I'm not listening to Christian radio. They're all fake, james. No, I'm not saying that now, I'm saying that's where I was then.

Speaker 2: 34:39

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 34:40

So, but that it actually ended up helping me, because it drove me into studying for myself.

Speaker 2: 34:44

That's good.

Speaker 1: 34:45

And I had an officer there in the that. It was the North dorm. They called it the chapel dorm because it was next to the chapel, but it was better than the other dorms because there weren't so many people Like I had 50 guys in my dorm. They're 50 guys in another dorm. We shared a yard.

Speaker 1: 35:01

So what ended up happening was similar to what happened in the Montgomery County jail, but not quite as intense was. I just started studying for myself. Other people started coming along to turn into five, turn into 10, turn into 20. And next thing, you know, we've got this big group of people that are following Jesus and studying that are not a part of the normal, like Christian brotherhood. And I had an officer there. I wish I could remember his name because he was so helpful for me during that time. He would spend two or three hours with me a day. He would come in. He had to like hide his Bible in a briefcase because he was a correctional officer. It was his job. There was not to be doing the Jesus work, but he would sit down with me and study with me and help me like navigate through and understand. He would bring me books.

Speaker 2: 35:48

So this is a positive side.

Speaker 1: 35:50

So David.

Speaker 2: 35:50

Jeremiah thing was like something, a negative experience. It was hard Now this correctional officer that you don't remember his name was part of the positive experience.

Speaker 1: 36:00

He meant for me In a way like when you come to Jesus in prison you don't have a pastor. I mean you have a chaplain, but usually they're like we'll get into that later, but they're not really like pastoring you.

Speaker 2: 36:15

Another day, another podcast.

Speaker 1: 36:18

He was the guy that was like helping me navigate through, and I remember that we had our group had turned into such a large group that I said I think I want to do a Bible study. And so he was like, well, let me help you. And there was something about the process of that. It was kind of like cooking, like because you know I love cooking, always had. It was like I love the process of studying, putting together outlines and then helping people understand, helping people get it.

Speaker 1: 36:46

And my first Bible study, he helped me put it together and it was called fear or faith. Who's living in the room? And it was basically like the room of your heart, like you can either have faith or you can have fear, but both of them can be there. And he told me that he would. If I could write it all out, he would have it typed up and put into like where I could. I think actually it was his ideas that people learn more if they have something and holding their hands and study by.

Speaker 1: 37:16

And so I wrote it out and I was so excited I gave it to him and he was like, no, no, no, come here, come here, this is too complicated. Like they're not. Nobody understands these big words Like you need to get. You need to dumb this down to where they can understand. And it offended me but at the same time it helped me learn and I reworded everything. We came back and it was very effective, I mean. And then what he was doing was actually like he wasn't supposed to be doing that, but he snuck into the shift commander's office and made me copies and you know, I had my first Bible study and it was just, it was good. I mean, I was rocking the world, I was living my best life.

Speaker 2: 37:51

I have a random question. Do you think these things were going on with like other people at the Florida prison or other places you'd been, that you just were unaware of?

Speaker 1: 38:01

Yeah, I was. I was anti that.

Speaker 2: 38:03

Like so you think these and this is I mean I just don't know, but like these subcultures of what you were doing. Not exactly, but people were doing similar things and having the subculture and the other part of yeah.

Speaker 1: 38:17

There was a not not in that numbers, because in Florida there was so much like different religions that flooded, like you had, like Muslims and Buddhists and Jesus followers and there wasn't that in Alabama. No, it was pretty much Catholics and Muslims. I mean not Catholic Baptists. There's a small amount of Catholics and then like Muslims, Okay. Yeah, but the whole that turned into like getting to understand that that turned into a white black thing.

Speaker 2: 38:46

In Florida, you mean.

Speaker 1: 38:47

No in Alabama in Kielb� during this time and it was actually one of my most, I guess, like complicated times was because there were not a lot of white people that were like following Jesus, like sincerely following Jesus at Kielb�, so I was in the minority, in prison anyways. But in the Christian Brotherhood I was very much in the minority and it was weird because, you know, in Florida I was never in the. You know, I'm not gonna be white like her Hispanic, I'm just a person so what made you in the minority then?

Speaker 1: 39:22

because if you, we had like 40, 50 guys in our group and there was only like five white people and I didn't really, I didn't really see it that way, like I didn't, it didn't bother me, like I felt like I had a new, like perspective, new life, and I was just doing my thing, but and it was what it was, but you had these groups in there and I seemed to be Getting the wrath of both of the groups. There was this group of white people. They called themselves Christian Identity, which I'd never heard of any of this stuff. I didn't know any this. I didn't know any of it.

Speaker 2: 39:56

I've never heard of it.

Speaker 1: 39:57

Well, some religion that is like they're like base, like in North Alabama, and it's basically they believe that Jesus was white and the white race was the supreme race and everybody else was Inferred to them white supremacy. Basically it was white supremacy, but they had wrapped it up in like this religion of like the scriptures and all stuff, which for me made no sense because you know, I'm a student of history, I understand, like the Jews were neither white nor black, they're kind of in between, kind of weird. But um, and then at the same time there was a Like the polar opposite of that was the, the black Supremacists, and they called themselves Muslim five percenters and it was basically like the black people are the chosen race of God and then everybody else is not. And you know, white people are blue-eyed devils and all stuff. And it came to a head one time we were doing a Bible study and it was a very like, sincere, like we were just we're following Jesus, trying to figure this thing out.

Speaker 1: 41:06

And we were like in the middle of the dorm and it was bothering me because I looked up and I had these white people, like with their tattoos and their Nazi symbols and all stuff in the way that they were looking at me and they had approached me and said like, very like evil things to me, like you know, using the n-word and stuff like that, and they didn't bother me because I was going, I'm doing what I'm doing, I don't care what you're doing, but in prison you got to be, you got to be cautious because I'm I'm in prison. Like they can do something I Can, like they can physically harm me. So it was scary, but they were looking at me. They were on like the left side of the dorm crowd around the bunk looking at me, crazy, and we were just having a little Bible study. And then, but I looked over to the right and there was the group of the black supremacists or the, the five percenters or whatever, and they were looking at me the same way and the white people were upset with me that I was spending time with the African-American brothers and the black people, the 5%, were looking at me like I was leading their black brothers astray or something I don't know.

Speaker 1: 42:20

And it was like I got it like a clarity, like I just I'm not, I don't know how to say it, but I just like saw it they're the same, y'all the same Like y'all are white, people feel like y'all are better than everybody and y'all are black people feel like y'all are better than everybody. But it was the same like mentality or spirit behind that, but it was causing them to kill each other. No, yeah, they want. They were at war all the time and I just it's scary. But I realized like I'm not part of any of that, I'm not in any of that real quick.

Speaker 2: 42:54

I don't know if I you've said this before. Forgive me if you have but the, the five percenters. Why do you call him like what? Was that their name? Or that's what they call themselves.

Speaker 1: 43:04

Well, I didn't call him that. They call themselves that it's a sect of Islam. You know, if you go back and look at like if you watch the Malcolm X movie, the Malcolm X life, he was a five percenter. Oh, okay and it was like the Elijah Muhammad, all that. You know the white people with the enemy, all the things. But you know Malcolm X went to Mecca, where you know Islam is like I don't know that.

Speaker 1: 43:28

That could be another podcast. But he realized, like, whatever they were feeding me in America, this is not right. I mean, I mean so anyways, but I, I hated. I felt like I was Like receiving the wrath of the white people and I was receiving the wrath of the black people and I didn't like it.

Speaker 2: 43:48

I did not well, that's a yeah, that's a terrible feeling.

Speaker 1: 43:50

Well, it was scary too, because when you're in prison you know you want to. Your main like thing is to be safe. And I was not safe and I wasn't trying to make myself unsafe because I had learned. You know, at BC I like all the rules Like. But after I had my experience with Jesus, I had to lay aside all those rules and start following him.

Speaker 2: 44:11

So you just realized, though, that your actions were making kind of you an enemy of both camps.

Speaker 1: 44:16

Yeah, and it was scary.

Speaker 2: 44:18

It was getting by it didn't.

Speaker 1: 44:20

You know, I'm a little stubborn, you know if I feel a little. No, but if I feel like I'm right, like I'm all in, I'm gonna push through. Oh, I know so we pushed through and we kept doing, we're doing, and basically what I saw during that time was that people's lives were being changed and they were finding hope and healing, and so it was really just like solidifying what you felt, like you knew already.

Speaker 1: 44:46

Oh yeah, yeah, I didn't let that sway me. If anything, like the white people coming at me and the black people coming at me made me want to follow Jesus even more, because I well no understood. Like he's not white or black, like we're all creating the image of God, we're all. We all come from Adam and Eve. Yeah like we make up all the stuff and really there's a force behind that and that's the enemy that is pushing that agenda. Yeah and I'm not gonna be a part of that agenda. I'm not.

Speaker 2: 45:14

So you were basically pushing through the All the negative and the subcultures following what you felt like was True and real and I was sorry I was sincere.

Speaker 1: 45:27

I mean I was, I was, but it's weird because kill me was such a weird, like coming out of Florida coming into kill me, kill me was such a backward, never seen anything like that because it was transitional.

Speaker 2: 45:42

What you said like I mean, it was like it was but the Alabama Department of Corrections.

Speaker 1: 45:47

Even in 2021 they are stuck in, like 1950, like the way they still, or then?

Speaker 1: 45:53

oh still, you know I've done prison ministry, I know I've been out of prisons. You know I was out of prison for two months when they invited me back in. I've been, I know what they do and it's not it's it's just bad, like the Alabama Department of Corrections is one of the worst in the nation. I mean, I think Louisiana may be the only ones that might even compare, but the contrast between Florida, which was more like Florida, was more like military. They ran their prisons like very, they had rules, they had guidance and you know you did everything according to what your protocol, what you're supposed to do in Alabama they just they warehouse human beings and it's not good.

Speaker 1: 46:42

Yeah so, but I think my biggest relationship I made, besides that, one officer that was kind of mentoring me, was an inmate. His name is Eddie Foster and he was at Kilby For a medical procedure. So he had been. I think by that time he had been in prison for like 10, 15 years, oh wow. And he was raised Muslim and he grew up in the five percenter like the hateful, you know, the white people's, the end of me and all stuff. And was he a black?

Speaker 2: 47:16

or White he was.

Speaker 1: 47:22

He was to clarify.

Speaker 2: 47:24

I need to get a visual of my mind, okay?

Speaker 1: 47:26

but to me he was just my brother.

Speaker 2: 47:28

Yeah like because he was he was a good.

Speaker 1: 47:29

He was good people, but he was. He was a Muslim. He had some violent crimes. I think he had life sentence, like he was not looking to get out ever, and he went to a Cairo's weekend which will cover Cairo's a little bit later.

Speaker 1: 47:43

That just give a little bit of what that is a Cairo's weekend is a prison ministry where they come in and they spend three days with men and they get like the Draw as they feed you really good because the food is so bad Food is it's way worse in Florida but and then they basically like share the good news of Jesus and try to get people to come to Jesus.

Speaker 1: 48:05

And try to get people to come to Jesus and but people go for the food. He went for the food and he, his story was that when he went to the Cairo's weekend he was trying to offend the guy that was at his table and he was like insulting him like everything he could to try to just dog him out. And he would like look at the guy and say you understand, I'm a Muslim. And he, the guy, was like so Jesus, those Muslims, what are you talking about? And he could not offend this guy and it caused him to have a conversion and he came to, had to come to Jesus like a real experience, like I did, and it changed everything about him and he was a leader Like he was. He was-.

Speaker 2: 48:53

Like a natural leader.

Speaker 1: 48:54

Yes, he was, he was a. And I met a guy later on at another camp and I said the name of Eddie Foster and this guy like got violently upset with me.

Speaker 2: 49:04

Like Eddie.

Speaker 1: 49:04

Foster ain't saved. And I said, yes, he is. Like he might not have been saved when you knew him, but when I met him he was following Jesus Like he. He got it and he, he helped me understand, like the authority of God's word, how to not get caught up in the religious stuff and, just you know, have my personal relationship with Jesus and study the scriptures and learn and grow and all things. And it was good. It was good, that was really good.

Speaker 2: 49:30

And he just happened to be there the same time you were there.

Speaker 1: 49:32

He was only there, for I think he was there for a couple of months, Cause you know-.

Speaker 2: 49:37

And how long were you at Kilby Total?

Speaker 1: 49:38

I was at Kilby Six Months, which is unheard of Like you, never the average stay at Kilby's two weeks and I was there for six months and it had something to do with my like pending cases. But like in hindsight I look at that, that was such a huge gift for me because it helped me, like establish myself. You know not was like any like organization, but within myself, like what I believed, because there were so many people that came at you, like the inmates, the people coming in, like they were always trying to come at you and tell you you need to believe this and you believe that. And I was like you know what, I don't care what you say, I'm gonna believe Jesus and I'm gonna believe whatever is written in his word and that's what I'm running after. Because there was so many like conflicts. I remember one of the first ones was this Holy Spirit, like these speaking tongues, and I was like I do not People probably don't even know what speaking in tongues mean.

Speaker 1: 50:36

a lot of people listening, it's in the old and when the Holy Spirit came upon people in the Book of Acts like they spoke in other tongues and but they I mean like it sounded like a different language they spoke in different languages.

Speaker 2: 50:48

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 50:49

But there was a whole like religion that was created around that and a lot of people were there that would come in and try to teach you that and I just was like right, if it ain't real, I'm not doing it. So, and then like do you believe in the Trinity? And you know all this stuff? And I was like I don't know. I mean, I don't know what you're saying, like I believe in whatever the Bible says. That's what I believe in, and so I'm just going to go with that and you do whatever you want.

Speaker 2: 51:18

It's crazy to me, though, that you had this like just sudden. I guess this was the change in your heart, but just sudden, like belief in whatever this particular book said, when, before, you were like tearing out pages like smoking marijuana out of the pages. And then, all of a sudden, it was like your it was your ride or die, basically.

Speaker 1: 51:41

Well, before that it was nonsense to me, right, but after that it became my life and it still is my life.

Speaker 2: 51:47

I mean, I just find that, like I mean, to me that is a miracle in and of itself that you go from just like just a non-care and like this is literally like an empty notebook that I can burn and make. Make a cigarette to smoke out of too. It wasn't cigarettes, I believe whatever this book says, I mean that's an extreme.

Speaker 1: 52:11

Okay, here's the difference. I can tell you the difference. It's when you meet Jesus and you meet his spirit and he makes you spiritually alive, then his words become alive because he's the one that wrote it, even though it was written by over 40 men or 40 people over thousands of years. The word of God is alive and it will change your life, but not because of a philosophy, but because of the power that holds with it, and I learned that during that time. And it's not. It didn't become like a dogma or a denomination or any of that to me. It was my and really, like you can't argue you couldn't argue that with me because it changed my life.

Speaker 2: 52:57

Right, which is true for anyone. You can't argue if someone's telling their own story Like you can't argue with someone's story Like this is.

Speaker 1: 53:04

Yeah, you can argue over the like oh, the Bible is blah blah blah blah, blah, all that stuff, but it changed my life. And it changed my life then, but like going forward. There's many, you know. We can go on and on about that.

Speaker 2: 53:19

Was there any like crazy things that happened to you, Like in terms?

Speaker 1: 53:23

of that. Well, during this season there was, I remember, one time during this time I got like I think I had the flu. I didn't know it was the flu, but I got really sick and I'd been almost four years without any sickness, other than you know, I had my thing with my neck, where I had a problem with that. And then the miracle of the penicillin being delivered to me.

Speaker 1: 53:43

But I got like sick. Sick where I needed my mama. No, I mean when we first got married. Remember one of the first times we got married after I got sick and I felt Lord, have mercy.

Speaker 2: 53:53

But I felt like this is like I thought I married a. I thought I had married a grown man.

Speaker 1: 53:58

I mean, I thought Well, but the problem was you weren't taking care of me the way I needed to be taking care of you.

Speaker 2: 54:05

OMG, this is for real, real material, I guess.

Speaker 1: 54:08

And you got mad because I said look, if you can't help me the way I need to be helped, I need you to call my mama and you need to get her up here.

Speaker 2: 54:14

And I said call your mama if that's what you need, because I'm not that. But it's time to put your big boy panties on.

Speaker 1: 54:23

Well, you have babies. Now you understand Like nobody takes care of you like your mama, okay.

Speaker 2: 54:29

We're just gonna pause that and say dot, dot, dot.

Speaker 1: 54:33

Okay, but anyways, let's bring us back to 1997. I'm at Kielby and I got I think it was a fluke. I was sick, like I was very sick, and I needed my mama, but my mama couldn't come to me and I was praying and I felt like Jesus said I want you to go to the commissary and I want you to get seven cans of orange juice and I want you to drink every one. And it was these little Donald Duck cans of orange juice that I don't even think they sell those anymore.

Speaker 2: 55:04

This was, I feel, like I have a visual for them, but I'm not sure why. But I feel like I know what you're talking about.

Speaker 1: 55:09

There were little skinny cans and I went and and they're metal, hard metal, yeah. And they didn't taste that good. But I said I need seven cans of orange juice and they looked at me like okay, but I mean I bought them and I sat there in the cafeteria there and I down the seven cans, I went back to bed, put my covers over my head and by lunchtime I started sweating and I felt better. I was better, and so I was telling people about it.

Speaker 2: 55:35

And there was, like this one brother Brother, I like how you call him my brother.

Speaker 1: 55:39

Well, I loved him but he was very he was very dogmatic and what he believed. And he was telling me, like you saying, the orange juice made you well, the orange juice healed you. And orange juice don't heal, jesus heals. And I was like, look bro, I don't know what you're talking about, but I felt like Jesus told me to get the orange juice and drink it and I did and now I'm better. So don't argue you, don't argue with results. Like, argue with ideas, don't argue with results. I'm better, I'm healed, I'm better. I don't know how that happened, but it happened. So move on, nerd.

Speaker 1: 56:13

But there was a lot of stuff like that. But then there was this one time I was reading the book of Daniel, which was an Old Testament book that I wasn't really like finding to read in the Old Testament beyond, like the book of Genesis, because it was all those laws and all that stuff in the in between like that's not for me and I understood that. But the book of Daniel was fascinating to me because he was carried away captive into a foreign country and I felt like I'd been carried away captive into a foreign country and he would have visions from God and I was just like, well, if he can have visions, I can have visions. And so I was under my covers one night praying and I just read the book of Daniel and it was just like it was like God was like opening up to Daniel the spiritual universe, like what's really happening, and I was like Jesus.

Speaker 1: 57:10

I know that you know you're not supposed to ask for signs and all these things, but like whatever you did for Daniel, I know you can do it for me. So if you could do that for me, like if I could just like, if you could just show me some of that stuff like this universal, like stuff, like if I could just get a touch from you, then I would really, it would really help me. It would help me grow in my faith and I would really appreciate it. And I was so sincerely praying to Jesus and under my covers there I'm a little prison bunk it was like God just reached down and touched my face and I felt it and I was like whoa, like what's happening? And it was like touch. And then it was like touch, touch touch.

Speaker 1: 57:55

It was so weird. I was like my mind was just totally like blown and I think that lasted all of like 20 seconds before I realized that God did not take his finger and touch my face in the North dorm of Kilby Correctional Facility but there was a roach oh my face. It was a roach. And it wasn't a little roach, it was one of those big roaches like the cockroaches that come in from the outside. Well, kilby was like oh, that's so nasty, it was gross. But I learned and I, you know, I rolled out of my. I was on the top bunk.

Speaker 1: 58:35

And I rolled out and was like screaming, and people were like what's wrong with you? I was like, well, there's a road to my face. But I learned after that not to ask for signs, like I don't need signs, I'm just going to believe and, you know, run after you and follow you. But it was, it was, it was crazy, but during this time, you know, I got really connected to Eddie Foster and he was at St Claire, which was the prison that I was slated to go to.

Speaker 2: 59:07

OK, yeah, so he was able to prep you a little bit, I guess, or well, he was telling me all about St Claire.

Speaker 1: 59:12

St Claire had had some kind of like he called it a revival. I didn't really understood what that meant at the time, but they're just like kind of what happened to us in the Montgomery County jail, where God just kind of breathed in and like people were on fire and trying to figure it out and he would tell me all about their chapel services and how they had tapes and books and all the things you could do. But then there was another thing that they had going on at St Claire at that time was they had like a for real, like Bible college college. They called it a car. I mean, it wasn't like really a college, it was like a program. Ok, but you could go through Bible school at St Claire, wow. So I feel like I knew that was my name.

Speaker 2: 59:54

Now, where was St Claire exactly?

Speaker 1: 59:56

St Claire is north of Birmingham, is the one of three Max camps in Alabama.

Speaker 2: 1:00:01

Birmingham, but OK.

Speaker 1: 1:00:02

There's Mac, there's St Claire and then there's West Jefferson, which was west of Birmingham, and Bessemer, and then there's Atmore, which is down towards Mobile, and it's like where they like execute people and stuff. Ok but of the three, st Claire I've been told St Claire is the best one to go to because it's some maximum security prison people in there for like violent crimes but it's not a violent prison. Ok that makes sense. Yeah, oh, and just side note, we have noted that.

Speaker 2: 1:00:30

James wants to know a lot, if it makes sense to me.

Speaker 1: 1:00:34

Well, we go back through and listen to these podcasts and I say a lot. Or does it make sense? And I'm trying to stop saying is that makes sense?

Speaker 2: 1:00:41

because we don't want to annoy y'all and because I'll tell him if it doesn't make sense. I mean he knows that.

Speaker 1: 1:00:46

Well, part of that is I'm trying to explain a world to you that you don't understand.

Speaker 2: 1:00:51

That's very true.

Speaker 1: 1:00:52

It is very much like you trying to explain Sweden to me?

Speaker 2: 1:00:55

Right.

Speaker 1: 1:00:55

Like I understand Sweden, that's on the other side of the planet, but you've explained, like the culture and you know, you've taught me how to say gluten Morgan. No that's not I say it. What do you say?

Speaker 2: 1:01:07

Good moron.

Speaker 1: 1:01:08

Good moron I think gluten more.

Speaker 2: 1:01:10

I think you're speaking like Dutch or something when you say that but it's not Swedish.

Speaker 1: 1:01:13

I have no reference for Dutch.

Speaker 2: 1:01:15

You can probably let his friends get, that's not it. It fascinates me From my Swedish listeners. I love you guys.

Speaker 1: 1:01:22

It fascinates me that you could live there for only eight years and learn the language. That is so fat, because I can never learn a language. I try to learn Spanish when I was at VCI when I had Cuban friends and I got passed like they hold a S. I think that means how or what time is it? Is that right? And then to Tien is on break. That means are you hungry? And then I was like, ok, I'm an American, I can't learn another language. But anyways, he got me hyped up for that and I was so excited for my next step. So I was going to St Clair and I was going to Bible college.

Speaker 2: 1:01:55

So that was happening next. So I mean at this point you've been there how long? In the context of our conversation now, like how long have you?

Speaker 1: 1:02:03

been there Six months. Ok, which was way longer you said than it was about five months, and there's about five months and two weeks longer than I should.

Speaker 2: 1:02:11

Ok so you really were anticipating any day?

Speaker 1: 1:02:15

Yeah, my transfer could be any time. Thank, I was going to St Clair. I slated, but a lot of that's like they don't transfer you until they get a bed for you and it's just like the whole thing's a complicated process. And then I had all these other charges which complicated even more. So it kind of made sense that I was there. But like in hindsight, being at Kilby for six months for me was a gift. Yeah, it was a gift of time and space to learn and grow. And if I would have known what I was facing next, I would have really been embracing that process, because what was coming next was a nightmare that I never would have. I never could have imagined what would come next. Oh, scary it was.

Speaker 1: 1:02:59

So Andy Foster got transferred about two weeks before I left and I was very sad when he left because he had become like a friend and a mentor and he was really helping me navigate through my new life. But he was gone. I was there. There were some experience. I had a lot of experiences with Jesus. I got experience in my first Easter there and it was where I kind of came up. Remember I told you about my first Christmas and how meaningful that was.

Speaker 2: 1:03:31

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:03:31

Well, I got to my first Easter and my first Christmas was meaningful because Jesus made it meaningful. I tried to make my first Easter meaningful by doing something really stupid Because, you know, in the Christian world, easter is like that's the most, like holy day.

Speaker 2: 1:03:47

It's an important.

Speaker 1: 1:03:49

Well, it's because Jesus died on the cross, paid for our sins, and then he was buried for three days and then he was resurrected on. Sunday morning Like that's, that's, you know the, the crux of Christianity. Oh, I don't even call myself Christian because actually in the Bible they didn't call themselves Christians, they call themselves. They said in the book of Acts they said we belong to the way because Jesus is the way, the truth of the life. It was other people starting calling Christians, like later on.

Speaker 2: 1:04:15

You call yourself a Christian.

Speaker 1: 1:04:16

I mean, I am a Christian but I'm not part of the big C Christian. I'm a Jesus follower. That's who I am. I follow Jesus. I just this is so silly Like look at my going now but I decided that for my first Easter I was going to fast food and water for three days so I could experience what he experienced, like some kind of suffering or whatever.

Speaker 2: 1:04:36

And it was bad decision, but I did it when you say fast, you mean you're not going to eat and you're not going to drink. I'm not going to eat food or I'm going to eat water for three days.

Speaker 1: 1:04:47

Yeah, bad decision, but I made it. My mind was going to be nine. If I decide to do something, do it.

Speaker 2: 1:04:52

He's like I'm going to suffer through it.

Speaker 1: 1:04:55

It was. That was not a good decision, especially at that point, but I mean I did it. But on the other side of that, it was like I felt like Jesus taught me a lesson. Like I did this for you, you do not have to like, you don't have to add to it. Like I did it, it's done, just live and love it.

Speaker 1: 1:05:13

And that was a big lesson during that time. Like it's, this is, this is not something I can earn, but it's like you go back to, especially when you're wired, like me, you want to be like, you want to add to it, you want to, you want to like, do something, to feel worthy. And I just felt like you brought me back to. You're not where you can't do it. So just trust me, I did it, let's go, I've made, I've got it, I've got you, I've got you covered. And then, like, right in the middle of all that, I'm rocking and rolling, roll, roll. I'm rocking and rolling, I'm leading people. Like it's amazing the things that I saw during that time. But then that came that morning when they said you make Jones one, nine, zero, zero, six, three, pack it up, you go on a DLC.

Speaker 2: 1:06:03

And so I was do you see, sorry, you remind me, do you see means?

Speaker 1: 1:06:06

department corrections. Okay, that means I'm going to my permanent camp, okay.

Speaker 2: 1:06:10

So I was so excited.

Speaker 1: 1:06:11

I got my stuff. You were so excited.

Speaker 2: 1:06:13

I wrote it.

Speaker 1: 1:06:14

I mean I'm going to St Claire, hey Lee, I'm going to Bible college. I mean I don't care, they say they're sending me to prison in a camp, but I'm going to Bible college. So I'm sure your mind. You were like yes, and I'm going to get to see Eddie Foster again.

Speaker 2: 1:06:28

Yeah, he's at.

Speaker 1: 1:06:28

St Claire and packed up my stuff. I'm so full of hope, so excited, and I get down to where they transfer you out. They took all my stuff, get me ready, and I'll never forget this inmate. They, when they transfer you, they put all your stuff in their brown paper bag and they write on your bag. And he had this big black marker and I was so like focused on him right, my name, and he wrote Jones one, nine, zero, zero, six, three. And then he wrote the letters W D C F and I had no idea what does that? What does W D C F Me now? So confused, and then there was a part of me, there was like something to me that jumped and was like maybe I'm going to one of those new programs they keep coming up with, like, but there was nothing about W D C F that you could get St Claire into and I was headed somewhere that I never thought I would be.

Speaker 2: 1:07:35

Oh, what a cliffhanger.

Speaker 1: 1:07:37

Well, tune in to episode season two, episode six.

Speaker 2: 1:07:40

Tell me the letters again. W.

Speaker 1: 1:07:43

D, c F.

Speaker 2: 1:07:45

W D C F.

Speaker 1: 1:07:46

And you know me, I study things. I try I need to know before we get there. That's true. And W D C, f Did not line up with anything Register.

Speaker 2: 1:07:54

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:07:54

Nothing.

Speaker 2: 1:07:56

Well, stay tuned, because I want to know just as much as everyone else.

Speaker 1: 1:08:00

So here we go. It's time to go. It's time to do the next thing. Well, thank you guys. So much for tuning in. We'll see you next week and you'll find out what W, d, c, f stands for All.

Speaker 2: 1:08:14

Right, bye guys.

Speaker 1: 1:08:16

But it's not good. Bye, hey guys. Thanks so much for tuning in to the Straight Out of Prison podcast. For more exclusive content, head over to our website, tingjonesco.

Speaker 2: 1:08:28

Yes, you can subscribe by clicking on the become a patron button and that's going to get you access to our for real. Real, which is very different than the highlight real Some very juicy content there.

Speaker 1: 1:08:41

Good stuff, or you can look us up on Facebook and Instagram. Straight Out of Prison podcast.

Speaker 2: 1:08:47

Yes, that takes the story to a whole new level, where you can see some of the people that James talks about in his story and see some of the places that he's been I've been loving it and you will see prison recipes. Yeah, all the things.

Speaker 1: 1:09:01

We'll see you soon guys.

Speaker 2: 1:09:02

Thanks, bye performance.