From Chaos to Harmony: The Power of Faith and Inmate-Led Reform in Prison

Imagine waking up to a morning in a maximum-security prison. An environment characterized by violence, disorder, and every man for himself. Now, imagine trying to radically alter this environment into one of faith, respect, and harmony. Sounds like a herculean task, right? Well, that's exactly what James and his friends Chris and Glover did, and their journey is nothing short of inspiring.

With the administration's blessing and a few resources, the trio found themselves in a dorm with 96 men, tasked with the mission of creating an Honor Dorm. Amidst challenges and doubts, they established three cardinal rules — no sexual activity, no violence, and no drugs — and elected representatives to act as liaisons. And so began the transformation of the prison culture, one rule at a time.

James was mentored by Gerrel Jones and he played a pivotal role in this transformation. James, with the rest of the group, cultivated an environment of love, respect, and understanding, leading to the creation of the Land of Goshen, an Honor Dorm reminiscent of the Old Testament story of Joseph and his brothers. Incredibly, their efforts caught the attention of the new Governor, prompting replication of their program across Alabama. This episode is a compelling narrative of unexpected heroes, undeterred faith, and the extraordinary power of change. Prepare to be moved, inspired, and challenged in your perception of inmate-led prison reform and redemption. Listen in, and discover what can happen when love and faith infiltrate even the darkest places.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 5:03

Well, hey guys, thanks for tuning in to the Straight Out of Prison podcast. This is season two, episode nine. My name is James K Jones and this is my story.

Speaker 2: 5:12

And this is Hailey Jones, and this is his story that has now become a part of my story.

Speaker 1: 5:17

Guys, it's our story, so that means we've got to deal with the things. So right before we began to tape this episode, hailey likes to come in to the room where we do the podcast and bring her phone and all the distractions and the Apple Watch and all the things and the glass of water.

Speaker 2: 5:34

Like a normal human being, would enter into any room that she's semi-.

Speaker 1: 5:39

Hold up, I don't have all those things functioning. Anyways, it's a huge distraction for me because anything we do on this table we're taping this podcast on a table in our basement and it's a nice soundproof room, but anything that happens in here like ends up on the podcast.

Speaker 2: 5:55

But now I've found a mat that I've put on the table and you, like, I'm putting down a glass right now and you can't hear it at all.

Speaker 1: 6:02

Okay, anyways, these are the things that will wind up on the For Real Real. That's our subscription podcast that we've added.

Speaker 2: 6:11

Yes, we'll unpack that more there.

Speaker 1: 6:13

Yeah, we're going to do that. So it's not 2021 now on this podcast, we're going back to 1998, and that's where we need to be.

Speaker 2: 6:22

All right. So last time, where did we end? We ended that you were going to some Christian dorm your best friends, what was their name?

Speaker 1: 6:31

Chris and Glover.

Speaker 2: 6:32

Okay, and they had. It was the Cairo's ministry people that had come in and they've been trying to get this Christian dorm and they finally got it going, I guess, and your two friends were super excited and came to you said they were going and you said I'm not going, I'm not going, I'm not going to get part of that. You realize that they were going and they were basically your only friends or your best friends, and so they tricked me. So you went because of them.

Speaker 1: 6:56

Only because of them. The only reason I went was because they said Chris said I put your name on the list and I said you go ahead, I'm not doing all that. And he was like, well, me and Glover are going. And I was like, well, I guess I'm moving to the Christian dorm.

Speaker 2: 7:10

Yeah. Because you had a real kindred with them, like they were a real kind of light.

Speaker 1: 7:15

They're my only light in a very dark place.

Speaker 2: 7:17

In the dark place.

Speaker 1: 7:18

Those are very dark places and but it was more than that, like if I'd have met both of them even now, like we would have been like because we were very similar and we had the same background, makeup. We were opposites, Like Glover was black, I was white, chris was like, he was like a gypsy.

Speaker 2: 7:37

So do you think that you would have been really good friends now? Is that what you're saying?

Speaker 1: 7:42

Absolutely, because our common denominator was that we all were in love with Jesus and we're excited by his plan and, just you know, trying to sincerely seek after that and not seek after, like religion or any kind of nonsense.

Speaker 2: 7:55

Okay, so you're going to this so-called Christian dorm.

Speaker 1: 7:59

Well, we ended up and you said I didn't say this, but I did say it last time. They told us that we couldn't have a Christian dorm because if they, if they established a Christian dorm at Donaldson, then the Muslims would want to have a Muslim dorm.

Speaker 2: 8:11

Then the Jehovah's Witnesses right, I do remember that it would be never ending.

Speaker 1: 8:15

Like everybody wants their own dorm, right. So they said we'll let you do it, but you need to figure out a way to do it where it's not like labeled as a Christian dorm, like they put forth, like call it a faith dorm, like any faith. But honestly, the administration at that time we didn't know it then, but we learned it later they were only letting us do it to shut the carers people up, like to prove to them there's no way that's going to work in a maximum security prison. It's great that you'll have these grand ideas, but it's not going to work. So they were basically using us to prove that it wouldn't work. But we didn't know that.

Speaker 1: 8:51

And when we got there I was excited to see that there are only 12 of us that said yes, there was me, chris and Glover, and then there was like I think there are like four or five or six chapel workers and there was like three of them cover house, huey Koon and Terry Bush, like they were the ones that came with us and there were 12 of us ended up. But we walked into a dorm of 96 men and this was a dorm that was. You know, it was a prison dorm. It was awful, like the stuff that went on at Donaldson and the carers. People came in. They were so excited they came in, had a little meeting.

Speaker 2: 9:35

They came in, encouraged us and they bought us 96 plastic chairs Like wait, why did they buy you 96 if there was only 12 of you?

Speaker 1: 9:45

There were 96 men in the dorm.

Speaker 2: 9:47

Oh, okay.

Speaker 1: 9:47

There were 12 of us that they planted in that dorm to start the honor dorm.

Speaker 2: 9:51

Oh, okay, yeah.

Speaker 1: 9:53

So they bought us 96 plastic chairs, which there were no chairs in Donaldson. Like you, didn't even you sat on your bunk when it came out in the day room there were like six tables, you know. Figured out. They bought us the chairs, they bought us two TVs and a VCR so we could have classes. I guess they said classes, and then I think it was a second or third day they figured out this too much for us, we're gonna let them figure it out. So they got us the dorm, they got us the chairs, they got us the tv's and they got us the vcrs.

Speaker 2: 10:26

So when you say they got us the dorm, there was 12 of you planted in a dorm with, you know, 96 or whatever there were still 96 men that lived there. Okay, but so the majority of them were not in this faith dorm.

Speaker 1: 10:40

No, they weren't studying that so how did I mean?

Speaker 2: 10:43

I don't like. What were they expecting?

Speaker 1: 10:45

What was the Well, they kind of supposed to do they kind of left it up to us to figure it out. Like they came in, they had a little meeting. They told everybody in the dorm we're, we've decided we're gonna establish an honor dorm.

Speaker 2: 10:58

They called it the honor dorm who called it the honor dorm first.

Speaker 1: 11:01

I'm not sure if it was the chiro's people or the administration that came up with that, but but honor dorm meant that you know you were Gained some honor because you're trying to do something different. Okay, that makes sense. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 11:12

And because they couldn't label it with any kind of specific religion.

Speaker 1: 11:16

No, they couldn't right, okay.

Speaker 1: 11:18

I mean they, they could have, but it would have just caused problems. So it would have been, it would have been too much. That annoyed me because I was like, just let us be what we are. You know, like the only way you're gonna find something different in prison is if you're following Jesus. And that was just my immature, like the way I saw it.

Speaker 1: 11:33

But what ended up happening was we went in, we established it and for the first, like maybe six to eight weeks, it was a battle and nobody wanted us to succeed. And it was about that time that we figured out, like the administration they didn't want us to succeed. They wanted to shut the chiro's people up, because the chiro's people gave a lot of money To the prisons and they did a lot of volunteering. I mean there were hundreds and hundreds of them that would come in there and they had basically built the chapel out there from the ground up. And you know they did. It was like anything in the real world, like your donors, your, your people that support you, like you, they have influence.

Speaker 2: 12:13

Well, first tell me, you said they didn't want you to succeed. What does, what does succeeding look like in this brand new thing? I mean, how did you know If it was succeeding or not succeeding?

Speaker 1: 12:27

It couldn't succeed because there was this was a violent prison.

Speaker 2: 12:30

No, but I'm saying define what success would be for this.

Speaker 1: 12:33

For it to work. For it to work.

Speaker 2: 12:36

What I mean, but still I don't know for what to work.

Speaker 1: 12:41

For to go into a violent maximum security prison the worst prison in the state of Alabama and try to establish a dorm where people were not convicts or trying to do what they did and do something different. Because it was the narrative, it was the culture, and Alabama was different from Florida and they had a thing. They called them convicts, but they used that. If you said I'm a convict, that meant it was like a badge of honor. Like I'm a convict, I mean I don't play games, I don't do this, I don't do that, and I didn't know what that meant because I didn't, I didn't come up in the Alabama department of corrections.

Speaker 1: 13:19

Most of people, by the time they got to West Jefferson they'd been in and out of prison three or four times. You know I'm fresh, I don't know any of that stuff and it was like this you know you got stabbed somebody, you got to hurt somebody, you got to. You know, make your way and that was. I just knew I couldn't do that anyways, like I was not, I could. I mean, you know we talked about in less code episodes. That was not. I'm not wired like that. I can't like kill people, I'm just okay.

Speaker 2: 13:43

So basically the whole kind of purpose of this was for you guys, obviously, but also to kind of Start a culture change for this whole prison. Well, was that the purpose it would end up?

Speaker 1: 13:57

No, in the beginning the purpose of it was To get the Cairo's men to leave them alone about starting a Christian dorm.

Speaker 1: 14:05

So they were going to let us do it so that we could fail, so they could tell the Cairo's men, like see, we told you this one on work, but we didn't know any of that. All we knew was that we had this opportunity in front of us and then opportunity was incredible, like if we could do something different here in this hellhole, like it was, uh, it was inspiring, like once I got hold of it I mean it took me a minute because I didn't want to be a part of it, but it was like We've got this violent prison, this violent culture, this you know where, the prison, rape and just all the stuff that, all the violence, all the stuff that happened there Is that we can set the tone To do something different and it may not be going on all over the prison, but it's going to go on in this norm, like with this 96 people right, okay but the Like the task ahead of us looked Impossible, like I would.

Speaker 1: 15:00

It's kind of like I would wake up one morning like believe in, like we can do this, like we can figure this out, we can put together a structure and a program. And then the next day I would wake up, you know, after somebody got stabbed or somebody raped somebody, and be like, okay, this is never, this never gonna work here.

Speaker 2: 15:16

Yeah, I would have felt like a fail, for sure.

Speaker 1: 15:19

No, it was rough, those initial I would say the first, from January to like March or April. It was like If you went out into a field of weeds and you wanted to have a beautiful garden, like where do you start? You just have to get the weeds up. You have to like weed out everything and you have to like start. And In the beginning I didn't see it, but I was encouraged after we got in there because of the group that went. That we ended up with 12 of us was not like the Christian brotherhood, that wasn't the religious people, that was hollering and people sitting there by the hill, all this stuff. We were trailblazers. We wanted something different and it took me two or three weeks but I realized I was, I was right where I was supposed to be and I was going to get to be a part of something that that guy was doing. And even though it was like I was like 50 50 and what I believed this could actually happen, like we could actually do something different here.

Speaker 2: 16:16

You mean 50, 50 and believing like, oh, it could happen or it's never gonna happen.

Speaker 1: 16:20

Yeah, I mean, I would get you know how I am. I get discouraged, yeah, and if one, when I get discouraged, I don't you know, I'm just burning to the ground, I don't care. But, um, when I'm encouraged, I'm like we can, we can keep going, we can take the next step, we can do the next thing.

Speaker 2: 16:37

And it was, uh, it was like that, the first, those, those formative times so it's almost like they were charging these 12 men to Okay, we want to see you guys make a difference and I mean, I know I said this and he's like to change. Start the change of a culture within this dorm. Yes, in this prison.

Speaker 1: 16:58

It wasn't the administration.

Speaker 2: 16:59

They didn't think, they didn't think it happened.

Speaker 1: 17:01

It was the cow's man, right, they encouraged us and they they did come in. They were like we will equip you with support, you will do whatever. But then, like we got like Six, eight weeks in, they were like, oh, this is a lot, okay, so you?

Speaker 2: 17:15

said they equipped you with the chairs and the tv. Well, they got us the dorm.

Speaker 1: 17:19

They got us the chairs which we would need to have classes. They got us the tv's and the vcr and stuff that we would need to have classes.

Speaker 2: 17:24

So did they do anything beyond that, like what you were gonna? No in the classes.

Speaker 1: 17:29

No okay.

Speaker 2: 17:29

So what happened next? When you, when they realized that this is too much?

Speaker 1: 17:33

So I mean, it was never said that it was too much, it was just like it's. Like you know, well many people come in and try to help and then realize, oh no, right, there's a lot, but by the time that they they didn't, they never backed out, but they didn't really, they didn't really come in and put their feet on the ground and actually help us get it done. And by the time that they kind of backed out was when we stepped up and we're like we could, this can happen, like we can do this, like we can, this is what we're supposed to do, this is, this is gonna make a difference and we can do it which is obviously to me makes way more sense, that y'all would be More effective and have like kind of having An instinct of how to move forward in the next step more than they would, because you were literally Inside of it.

Speaker 2: 19:40

We're in there.

Speaker 1: 19:41

Yeah, but there were 12 was 12 minus 96. I don't know what's that oh don't figure it out. Anyways, there were 12 of us. There's 96 Men in the 84.

Speaker 1: 19:50

So there were 12 of us that wanted to do something different. There were 84 people in the dorm that did not care about that, and so our task was to figure out how to make it work. So I the only skills I had, the only thing I knew was, you know, I could do like bowel studies and stuff like that, like because I become, you know, good at that. But then we had, like the chapel workers, they, they had a lot of influence, and then we just started one thing at a time, and the first thing we did was we elected we called them community representatives. So we elected six community representatives, which meant out of these 96 men, we're trying to create a community and a culture and these will be our leaders and and they'll be the ones that talk to the administration.

Speaker 1: 20:35

And the administration was the chaplain and the captain. That was like the difference between kind of like America, separation of church and state. So I mean it was kind of ran like that, because the chapel chaplain had a lot of power but then, like the, the captain had a lot of power and it was kind of divided power. So you had to, you had to navigate through the chaplain and the captain.

Speaker 2: 20:57

So did you all come up with that? The community like voting the community leaders?

Speaker 1: 21:01

Yeah, we didn't know what to do. That was the only thing we could think but that was y'all's idea.

Speaker 1: 21:05

Yes, and we wanted, on purpose, we chose three of us to be the leaders, and we chose three people out of the other 84 that we're doing. That didn't want anything to do with it, because we realized, like, if we're going to make this work, it can't be just us. We can't come here and say this is what we're going to do, we're going to put down because you don't do that in prison, because if they feel like you're putting down on them, they ain't going to do it anyways, and then they're going to rebel against you. It's going to be Just like. So we had to, like, include what was there to make it work. So we elected three of us, and then three of them, and to be the community the community represented.

Speaker 2: 21:41

Okay, yeah, and that was where we started.

Speaker 1: 21:44

We didn't know, you know, we didn't know what we're doing, but it was like we knew that was like you had to start with some kind of like leadership structure. So we created a leadership structure and immediately, you know, I got offended because I didn't get elected. Because you know me like I feel like if we're going to be running stuff up in here, I like I at least need a voice.

Speaker 2: 22:07

We're so different so many ways, but in this way I think we're very similar.

Speaker 1: 22:12

No, but I got aggravated with that like, but I mean, but at the same time I still have PTSD, like from dealing with what I dealt with, and also realized you don't even know this world. This is just not your world. So don't even try to be, don't try to lead in this world, like Lead in a kitchen somewhere. So you know, do something else, don't try to lead here. So I mean, I kind of settled into that. But it was like every day, it was just work. We worked, we worked our tails off and it was we came up with. We started with the community representatives. We realized that if we were going to like police ourselves, that we had to have standards. So we came up with, uh, three cardinal rules which meant if you participate in any of these three things, you can't live in this dorm. And you got to move, you got to leave and y'all could decide that.

Speaker 1: 23:00

Yes, but we it took a minute for them to be able to we got back up from the captain, the coroner. Rules were no sexual activity. So we decided if you're gonna have any kind of sexual activity, it won't happen in this dorm, you know. If you want to do that, go ahead and move out. The other cardinal rule was any kind of violence like anything in, like fights, theft, any of that stuff. And then what was the other one? It was, oh, drugs, any kind of drugs, any kind of Imprisoned. It wasn't just drugs.

Speaker 2: 23:34

There were drugs that came in but it's interesting to me that, like, y'all were given the power to Decide okay, if you do these things, then you can't be a part of this dorm. So they allowed you to kind of have that kind of I guess say we had to.

Speaker 1: 23:49

You had to have a standard. So this is the standard for the honor dorm was no sex, no drugs, no violence, and if you want to do that, there were 17 other dorms that you could live in okay. And if you got kicked out for any of those violations you could reapply later on. Like it turned into a really cool. It worked.

Speaker 2: 24:08

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: 24:09

It was. It was a good, it was a standard and that was our standard. We had to have that standard.

Speaker 2: 24:14

I mean it's crazy, because I feel like these kind of things, like coming up with rules like that, I mean that's that happens and is done in the free world, as you say.

Speaker 1: 24:24

Well, those were the three worst like Things that would take people down if you got involved with sex, got involved with drugs or you got involved to violence. Yeah, and it wouldn't just affect you, it'd infect, everybody infect.

Speaker 2: 24:38

Well, you may be in fact, but it would affect everybody.

Speaker 1: 24:41

So if you had, like violence or something like that going on dorm, they'd locked the whole dorm down. So it affected 96 people, it didn't just affect you. So we're taking that stance was we're trying to create a community for people that want to do something different.

Speaker 1: 24:56

Yeah and if you don't want to do something different, then you don't need to be here. That makes sense. Yeah, that's great. Oh, yeah. So immediately we set out, we created the leadership structure, then we create the cardinal rules and then we started creating different departments. So, everybody, if you work, if you live in the honor dorm, you had to have a job in honor dorm and If you live in the honor dorm, you had to be pursuing like some kind of practical, because we were not trying to do just like the Jesus, like come in and teach us about you know the bread and the wine and you know all the spiritual things which are important, but we were trying to come at it from a standpoint of Most of these. Dudes don't know how to read, they don't know how to get along with people, they don't they don't know how to deal with their criminal thinking and we wanted, like the whole, we want to deal with everything like a well-rounded individual, basically.

Speaker 1: 25:51

Yeah, and then practical things like how to write a check, how to have a bank account, how to get a job.

Speaker 2: 25:56

Okay, I'm gonna be a job interview pause when you say just going back, because I want to understand all these facets. You said everyone was required to have a job. Well, we had.

Speaker 1: 26:06

Well, we created departments in the honor dorm.

Speaker 2: 26:10

So give me an example of a department and a job a department would have been like we had a coordinator.

Speaker 1: 26:14

Coordinator Somebody was always at the coordinators table. That meant somebody's always paying attention to what was going on in the dorm. So we we were trying to set up classes. We were trying to set up just like an accountability, because we came up with rules like there ain't, if you want to smoke cigarettes, you have to do that in your cell. We didn't say they couldn't smoke cigarettes. You just can't smoke cigarettes out here, where it's gonna get on everybody else. And If we're gonna have classes, if you're gonna be disrespectful or, you know, make noise or doing that, you know you can't do that.

Speaker 1: 26:47

Like we came up with a list of like rule, like rules. And I think the first time I got excited, like I really got excited, was some of the free world people started getting excited about what we're doing and we had a wish. I remember who it was but they gave us a library, they donated a library to us, so they came in and put up shelves and stocked it with and so that was a department there's library, there was coordinators, there were people walking around like like the police, but it's crazy to me what you're saying, like that they allowed you guys as inmates I mean, I know you're in this honor dorm, like faith dorm, but they allowed you guys, as inmates, to create and implement all this structure.

Speaker 1: 27:34

Okay, well, I'll just since we do the for real, real and we want to say what's really happening yeah, I mean tables really happening. Sure, the Alabama Department of Corrections has a problem with like personnel and you know there's a lot of corruption and and also in a block like that, you would pay three or four officers to work that block 24 hours a day. They found out after our first like six months. They figured out if they're really policing themselves. We just need to put one co up there and that co will deal with the leaders. And then so it became like a financial thing, like right and it.

Speaker 1: 28:18

Well, I mean, they were seeing. You know, we were seeing something. Now. They were seeing dollar signs like what you make sense if we make this work and we can only put one officer over there, then we can put the other officers in this. You know this found, you know, do this other stuff.

Speaker 1: 28:31

So I think it was some financial stuff that was on that ended up making it work for in our favor right and then they ended up being some prestige in it, because Once we got up and going, people just kept pouring into us like they kept like they don't need a library. Then somebody came in and was like hey, we, our organization teaches like practical life skills, like life after prison, how to deal with conflict, you know, and they just they were like begging to get in there and help us.

Speaker 2: 29:04

How did they hear about it?

Speaker 1: 29:05

I guess it's the chiro's people the chiro's people and then other volunteers. It ended up and it was. You know I would always feel bad about that, but it ended up after once we got up and going. The chiro's people didn't have a big part in it. I mean, they get the credit for starting it, but the chiro's people had one like their. One thing was just to show love right and to reach people and Let them know that Jesus loves them and he has a plan for you.

Speaker 2: 29:33

But I kind of love that, that they kind of initiate it. No, I like they kind of like created the spark and then you guys took it from there but then we got an outpouring of volunteers after that.

Speaker 1: 29:45

I mean like Gil Franks and Randy Walker, you know I talk about them. There's there.

Speaker 2: 29:50

They were very foundational in my who you still are friends with today.

Speaker 1: 29:54

Absolutely. I mean, like me out of prison, like they were begging. What can we do for you? Like, well, how can we help you? How can we come alongside? You know, help, because they, their heart is really for the men that are in there. And there were so many people like that will come in and you had your. You know you had your, like other people that want to do like those long-born Bible studies and stuff like that, and you know that's good. But we, we were clear that we need, you know, if we want to do just Bible study, will go to chapel service. We need Bible study, but we also need to learn how to be men and we need to learn how to handle finances and we have the time, like, why not do it now?

Speaker 2: 30:36

Isn't it true? I mean what you're saying or reminds me of, just like anything else that I mean I've heard in, like business world and even ministry world, like when you start something and you get traction and you Like there's, you see, some movement and you create, like community, people want to jump on board. It's like a snowball effect.

Speaker 1: 30:57

It is, and what ended up happening was, when we went in, there were 12 of us that went in and there was a guy I can't remember his name I probably wouldn't say his name because I have a negative about him, like a negative viewpoint of him, but he was a captain's runner. His nickname was shade.

Speaker 2: 31:16

That tells me all I need to know.

Speaker 1: 31:17

No, no he was a good guy. He's a good guy. His nickname was shade I mean his name, what they call him, shade and I asked him like how did you get that nickname? That sounds kind of sketchy. And he was like you know how, when you out in the sun is hot, my mom said she want to keep her baby in a shade so he can stay cool. But he was a captain's runner and I what's a captain's runner? It meant you work.

Speaker 1: 31:40

He worked for captain Carter, who okay basically ran the prison under the warden, okay, and he was over the art, captain Carter was over the honor dorm and chaplain Lindsey was over the honor dorm, so chaplain Lindsey had his four people that lives in there, the chapel workers, and then captain Carter has shade and that's shade. I can't remember his name, it doesn't matter yeah.

Speaker 1: 32:01

He was against us when we started, even though he's part of the hashtag Christian Brotherhood. He was against us when we started, but when he found out that this was working, it was starting to flip. Then, all of a sudden, he wanted to be on board and be the captain's runner and he, like, announced himself as the pastor one time. It was bad. I mean, there's stuff like this that goes on in prison.

Speaker 2: 32:24

I mean just on outside of prison, in the world.

Speaker 1: 32:27

It's just people. People get all mixed up and messed up, but uh.

Speaker 2: 32:32

But part of it's a compliment. Maybe, and no for sure. When you start and people want to be a part of it, and especially when they start, when I Giving themselves titles, giving your own self-titles- you know you must be doing something good right or something that's working On some level.

Speaker 1: 32:48

Well, here's the bottom line. That was hard work what we did, but the bottom line was I believe it was Doug Siegelman that got elected. I think it was Siegelman. I don't remember, I don't follow. I followed now closer to the governors of Alabama. We got a new governor in Alabama, it was Siegelman. It was Siegelman, and and with every new governor they appoint a new prison commissioner, kind of like. You know, when Trump became president, he appointed Jeff Sessions to be attorney general.

Speaker 2: 33:17

Okay, yeah and then.

Speaker 1: 33:18

But then when Trump, when Biden got elected, he appointed Merrick Garland to be attorney general, because so you pull in your own people, right? So Siegelman was the new governor. I believe Siegelman was a Democrat and you know there's not a lot of Democrats that win in Alabama right. He did and I think he was a good governor, even though there's a lot of stuff.

Speaker 1: 33:40

I Don't want to go down the political rabbit trail but he appointed a new prison commissioner. This new prison commissioner was interested in what we were doing, a Dawson correctional facility in Bessemer, alabama. And he was so interested that, like his first couple months being in that office, he decided he want to come see. And he came and he toured and he was blown away. Like blown away because by the time he came it was like the end of 98. It was after we had everything established. We had 96 men living in the honor dorm that wanted to be there, that were doing everything they could to stay there and make a difference. And he saw that and he Commanded like cuz, he's the prison, come, he's like he can say whatever he's in charge, yeah he said I want one of these in every Institution in the state of Alabama.

Speaker 1: 34:32

So then they remember his name. No, I could look it up. I mean, I could fact check it and look at that. I have a newspaper article on that.

Speaker 2: 34:40

Okay, I was just curious anyway.

Speaker 1: 34:43

He was. He was just. He was blown away Like he couldn't believe it, like this kid. This don't happen. You know, cuz you know, even all other prisons, like whatever. What was happening right there? It was, it was the unnormal.

Speaker 2: 34:54

He recognized that it was different.

Speaker 1: 34:57

Yes, but then it here was the here's where it became a problem. He wanted that to go everywhere. So I this was not a thing that came from the administration, the way we set it up, what we did this was not a thing that came really from any free world people we did inmates created this program.

Speaker 2: 35:18

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 35:19

And. But we knew we're inmates, we can't get no credit and we thought it was funny. But the mission statement for the honor dorm I believe it's still to this day in, like what they use I wrote that that's mine, but I didn't call them mission statement, call it a vision. This is what we're doing, and they adopted it. And then the structure, like the leadership structure and the all the rules and all the stuff, was written by another inmate, jason Kovrahaus, and he worked for the chapel, but he was smart, like he was his, one of his, like grandfather, great grandfather, like founded, like the Kovrahaus school law at the university. It's still there, you know, like you know he came University of.

Speaker 1: 36:06

Alabama. Oh, okay, rottie Holy Land. Okay, nick Saban in the house. No, but I'm saying he was like he was smart at like coming up with structures and he didn't do it by himself. We all did it together. But like he, like he, like he authored it. It's kind of like Thomas Jefferson he wrote the Declaration of Independence, but he didn't write it by himself, right, everybody had input, you know.

Speaker 2: 36:30

I know we, because this is so. I mean, this is real time and it's a genuine conversation.

Speaker 1: 36:36

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 36:37

You don't have the vision statement or whatever that you're talking about. That you wrote right now Do you, I do.

Speaker 1: 36:41

I have it somewhere. I need to look at it.

Speaker 2: 36:44

Well, maybe, yeah, I would love to hear that next episode, or something.

Speaker 1: 36:46

Well, what the vision that I wrote? It was not called the honor dorm or Christian dorm, it was called the land of Goshen.

Speaker 2: 36:52

The what.

Speaker 1: 36:53

The land of Goshen.

Speaker 2: 36:54

What does that mean?

Speaker 1: 36:56

It was in. It was like what I felt, like God showed me, like what we had the opportunity to do here. It was. It was from the Old Testament, it was I mean, it's a Bible story. I don't want to get lost in the Bible story, but basically, yeah, well, we did talk about Joseph a couple of episodes back.

Speaker 1: 37:12

You know, he went to Egypt. His brother sold him in slavery, became like the prime minister who was running stuff in Egypt. Then there was a famine that hit the world and then his brothers, who sold him off into slavery, came to Egypt to buy grain because they were starving and they bowed down before Joseph and Joseph. They didn't recognize him, but he recognized them and you know, long story short, he told them I'm Joseph. You did this to me Like you sold him off in the slavery. You try to destroy me, but God used it for something good and it was his plan to save the world through what you did to me.

Speaker 1: 37:48

And the other side of that story was that Joseph called his father and all his 12 brothers and brought them over into Egypt, but because Egypt was the world power during that time, like that was where everything was happening, but because they were Hebrews. Hebrews were shepherds. Egyptians detested like they wouldn't even eat with them. They thought they were like nasty or whatever. The Pharaoh gave Joseph the best land in Egypt, the land of Goshen, and said just let them live over there, you know? Just keep them together.

Speaker 1: 38:22

You know, we don't want to meet with us and all this stuff.

Speaker 2: 38:24

We love you, Joseph, but it's a real good lesson and it's just all about who you know.

Speaker 1: 38:30

No, I mean it's a neat story, but then the story was they moved in as 12 families with one dad, 12 different brothers, and when they left there, 500 years later, they were the nation of Israel and it was over two million people. But while they were there they lived in the best land they had. It was the best vegetation, it was the most, it was fertile, it was. They were in a place where they could thrive and grow and turn into everything that God created them to be in that land during that time. And I saw, I still see, the honor dorm as that. It is a place where you can go. You don't have to worry about getting raped, you don't have to worry about people using violence against you, stealing from you you know any of that stuff and you can get in a place where there's we have resources and you know the resources would grow and we'll talk about this later but help anything.

Speaker 2: 39:28

So basically you saw it as like a land of opportunity and prison.

Speaker 1: 39:33

Yeah, but they wouldn't use the land to go because they said it was had Christian.

Speaker 2: 39:37

Right.

Speaker 1: 39:38

And I even argued it was like that's actually not Christian, that's Jewish. So I mean Christian would be, you know, the Palsal Paul.

Speaker 2: 39:45

That's really neat, though. I mean I love that.

Speaker 1: 39:48

Yeah, I mean it was. I felt like it was, like it was what I felt like God gave me, Like this is what we're doing here and this is what I've called you to be a part of, and if you'll do this, then I'll pop you out of here and I'll pop you out of here.

Speaker 2: 40:01

Well, I knew that was part of my process.

Speaker 1: 40:03

I knew I was not, I wasn't trying to stay there. I was trying to start something but I felt like once I left there I could come back. You know, once we got that going 1998, 1999, I remember we even talked about like man, if we keep doing like this and everything cause we were, we were producing results in Donaldson and then if you go from being at Donaldson correctional facility and then you go to every prison in the state of Alabama, that's results and that's I mean Jesus called that fruit.

Speaker 2: 40:35

So we never really got there. But you said the prison commissioner, that's his title, right yeah, Under the new governor commanded, or just you?

Speaker 1: 40:43

know he established it.

Speaker 2: 40:45

He said I want these, I was on one of these, so that that actually happened, I guess.

Speaker 1: 40:48

It did, but it was complicated because then they had to take our stuff. Like Chaplain Lindsey took credit, cause he was the chaplain, but he was like I'm trying to speak nice to him. You got to remember my feelings towards him.

Speaker 1: 41:02

He was mentioned it before he was the chaplain when I was in lockup. They'll come around every week and talk to me and he didn't care about me, like he didn't care what was happening with me or any of that. And even after that he always, the day before I got out of prison, he told me you got a velvet tongue, jones, boy. Like you get you. You, you got a veil of tongue. You think you can slick talk all these free world people. And I'm like dude, I don't care about all these free world people.

Speaker 2: 41:26

The irony of that is that I don't think you have a velvet tongue at all.

Speaker 1: 41:29

I don't. I'm not even good. I'm not even good with people.

Speaker 2: 41:32

Being your wife. I'm like he did not know you very well.

Speaker 1: 41:35

No, he didn't try to, but what ended up happening was after the prison commissioner said that. Then they were like what are we going to do? The mission statement was written by inmate James K Jones. The structure and all the things that we use to keep it going was written by Jason Hunter-Cowhouse, who was a chapel worker who was in prison for murdering his mother, his father and his brother.

Speaker 2: 41:59

Wow.

Speaker 1: 41:59

So I mean it's, it's, it's, it's crazy.

Speaker 2: 42:02

Hopefully we're going to unpack that story later.

Speaker 1: 42:05

Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 42:06

That needs to be a story in its own. But what ended up happening was we just took all of our stuff and we put it together on a word document and had Chaplain Lindsey sign his name to it, and so he got all the credit as the chaplain and he should have got a lot of credit because he'd let us do it Like he. He empowered us to do it, but it was more of a passive empowering. It wasn't like I'm going to get in here and help you. No, I was like just y'all just figured out.

Speaker 2: 42:33

Okay, real talk. Does that bother you? Does that still like irk? You a little bit?

Speaker 1: 42:39

No, I think it was the way it's supposed to be. No, no inmates can be able to create a program that's going to go to every prison in the state of Alabama. That's not what happened. I mean it, just it's not.

Speaker 2: 42:48

I mean, it just makes me wonder. I don't want to do too much of a rabbit trail, but like how many times this happens just in other situations? You just think you know you see a name of who developed something. You're like what really happened there? Like how did that really come to?

Speaker 1: 43:00

be. Well, I haven't really studied this out but even like Thomas Edison, who created all these, had all these inventions and he created the light bulb and the film and stuff. I don't know if this conspiracy theories has ever happened. I haven't really like studied out, but apparently he had African-American that was his assistant that created the light bulb, but he got the credit cause he's Thomas Edison.

Speaker 2: 43:20

Right.

Speaker 1: 43:20

And you work for me. Now shut up and let me, you know, do my thing. But we didn't see it like that. We saw it as an opportunity. We didn't care. You know, give the credit to Chaplain Lindsey, give the credit to Captain Carter, give the credit to Warden Mention. Oh, we got a new warden in that process too, who really wanted something different to happen at Donaldson, like the warden that was there when I was there I talked about this a few episodes back. He was evil, he was like he wanted, you know, just let it be carnage and sex drugs and rock and roll.

Speaker 2: 43:50

You saw him at your restaurant, so were you associated with Cantron's neck? Is that the one.

Speaker 1: 43:53

He was one of my customers.

Speaker 1: 43:55

And I never really acknowledged him like, but he came in almost every day there and then we can ate at Kyros and he would like call me out to Donaldson. I'm not sure how proud I am and I'm like and I won't say his name, but I'm like your name is the cancer to me just because of what happened to me under under your leadership, like what happened to me, like the way you ran your prison, the way you let that stuff happen, and it is so ironic that you're sitting here eating my food and giving me your money. It's crazy, but I mean, that's how God, you know, works things out.

Speaker 2: 44:24

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 44:25

I had several of those. I mean, I actually one time I hired some like carpet people to come when I bought my first house I knew the carpets clean and somebody gave me a name and I called and I came and I looked and there was a man cleaning my carpet and it was a lieutenant from West Jefferson. And I was like yeah, but lieutenants are high up, you know, like there's the ones that you and I was like my, my, my.

Speaker 2: 44:55

That is crazy and this was I was.

Speaker 1: 44:57

This was 2003. So I don't have been in prison for like four years and I was like you know who I am. That is so crazy. You recognized me and you said no and I'll say good, but I know you do. But anyways, go ahead and clean that carpet up. Real good for you, right to the chair. That is insane.

Speaker 2: 45:16

It's crazy.

Speaker 1: 45:17

But then why don't they increase thisMusic? What happened during that time, just like, solidified for me that that. I'm not in control like the process for me would have been to go to St Clair and go to Bible College, but Jesus had a plan to send me to West Jefferson or Donaldson and we started something that was much greater than Bible college.

Speaker 2: 45:41

So what was your biggest take, I mean, what was your biggest takeaway from, because you didn't even want to go in the beginning.

Speaker 1: 45:47

And I know, you know, I mean, we've kind of covered all like what happened in.

Speaker 2: 45:53

I guess what Everything we've just talked about happened in a year span. Is that right?

Speaker 1: 45:58

I know it was actually fast it was. We were pretty much up running, established by the summer, and we started in January.

Speaker 2: 46:07

So six months more or less six eight months Okay, so that's pretty incredible.

Speaker 1: 46:12

What was your biggest?

Speaker 2: 46:13

takeaway. I mean, I think it was a big takeaway from just that process, I guess that you just need to keep doing the next thing, whatever.

Speaker 1: 46:21

You don't know what's gonna lead to something that's gonna be something absolutely amazing. That, and Honestly, the honor dorm to this day, they're still in all the prisons. It's still a blessing. You know, mr Gilbert, who worked for me at Foundry.

Speaker 2: 46:35

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 46:38

You know how he changed his life after 32 years in prison. How Since came pulled up on him and said we got some beds open up in the honor dorm. I Think you're a candidate. Wow okay, who's a friend of ours?

Speaker 2: 46:51

So, side note, mr Gilbert is what I call him. He worked with James the Foundry and he's actually one of my most inspiring. I'm just so inspired. We're gonna have him for someone to be in prison for 32 years, which is the most of my life, and to come out as an older man and to. I mean here's how I put in perspective when we were talking one day, to realize like there was no cell phones. There was no, I mean.

Speaker 2: 47:21

I feel like you put into like kind of a culture perspective and what was not happening when he went in prison, what was not there and then what was there when he got out. And to adjust to all of that, I mean, and to do something different, and Just a little side note, I just. I mean, he really is an inspiration. I mean, even just this week. Yeah you were telling me how, oh, he couldn't come to something that you had invited him to because he had started to coach softball yeah, and he was just fired up and I talked to him how excited he was and I was like he's almost 70 years old.

Speaker 2: 47:57

He's almost 70 years old, yeah, and just to be at almost 70 years old and still discovering like, okay, I'm starting a new thing and I am loving it and I'm like full speed ahead and discovering new things that I love and that.

Speaker 1: 48:11

But you know, the difference maker for mr Gibber this what at the age of 60 I think it was 66, 67 he began a relationship with Jesus and that changed his life.

Speaker 2: 48:23

So 66. Yeah, it's just beautiful he is and he's kind of like the surrogate grandfather for our kids. You know, it was my dad's in heaven and all that, but anyway, he's just one of the most inspiring people that I think I've ever. I know personally.

Speaker 1: 48:39

He's a blessing. I love him and he gives me way too much credit for his. Where's that? Wait, I feel like we'd lost our train.

Speaker 2: 48:47

Sorry, I just when you go back and I got excited Okay, we need to roll back to 98. Go back.

Speaker 1: 48:52

Well, actually, mr Gilbert is a product of the hunter dorm Like it was crazy, I never knew him when I was in prison. I didn't. I mean, we were there at the same time. We didn't know each other, we never connected. Yeah but that was how he changed his life.

Speaker 2: 49:04

That's awesome.

Speaker 1: 49:04

And now he's part of our family. Yeah, it's not just he's not just a person or you know he's part of our family. Yeah, like that's me, that's good stuff. But uh, you asked like what irritated me? It's never irritated me about. You know that chaplain's he had to have his name connected or any of the administration, or they got the credit. We thought that was funny. We thought that was like a like a jesus joke, like Ha, ha you know awesome.

Speaker 1: 49:30

But we were still going to do what we were doing and we were gaining influence and it was making a difference. But what does aggravate me now is, like on the other side of success, people start taking credit. So there's a lot of free world like volunteers that try to take credit for that and it just an inmate started the hunter dorm and you know all these people that try to do all these prison studies and you know criminal justice stuff. If you would start with the people that were in there.

Speaker 1: 50:00

Yeah like you would be able to figure it out it were my. It were my. I've read, I saw like a history channel thing. I don't know much about aviation but apparently, like after world war two, like we were stuck in the same like military Air force stuff and they had like engineers and all these smart people that kept building all these things and it was part of why that we couldn't Like succeed In Vietnam, and when was because we didn't have superior airpower and there was a guy that was a pilot that designed the F, whatever you know, somebody can call me on that, I don't know the letters F, one, two, seventeen, thirty four. Yeah, he designed that plane Because he was a pilot and he knew what it took and they didn't want it because it was not designed by the. You know the engineer, maybe the smart people, the engineers, all things.

Speaker 1: 50:56

But somebody took a gamble on him and that's changed. You know, changed everything. Yeah and they still use his original prototype. But he wasn't some guy, some bureaucrat, sitting in office somewhere trying to come up with ideas. He was a fighter pilot. He knew what it took to make a difference and he designed something that worked.

Speaker 2: 51:15

That's cool and it still works.

Speaker 1: 51:17

I mean, everything they've got now came from his original thing. Yeah, but like this, prison ministry, prison change, prison culture, prison, whatever idea if you would start with the people that were not on the outside looking in but only inside looking out, like we were, because we wanted, we wanted something different. We wanted something different. Right, that was once was successful.

Speaker 2: 51:38

And I think you can apply that anything? And to me that speaks to the whole story of like You're never too far and if you've messed up and gotten yourself in a place you know, like you in prison and all that, like there's, there's a redemptive, there can be a redemptive factor of the story too.

Speaker 1: 51:59

Absolutely that.

Speaker 2: 52:00

I mean, I love what you just said about, like Whatever you said about the people looking from the outside in, but you're looking from the inside out.

Speaker 1: 52:09

And that's why we're able to make a difference right, but we got stuck. I think it was like four or five months in we started drink gaining traction, things were working, and we got stuck with the like, the day-to-day how to make it work kind of yeah, I mean it was hard, it was hard work, but we did it. But I Learned a statistic that scared me, like I thought when, after I had an experience with Jesus, I'm good, like I don't need nothing else, I'm good feeling good, I should.

Speaker 1: 52:43

But I learned the statistic like somebody did like an outside, like study. It was the people that went through these drug programs in Alabama, which were intensive. They're called SAP programs and they're like it wasn't like the joke that we had in Florida, like they really like challenge behaviors and all stuff, like they were more the recidivism. Recidivism means coming back to prison, right? So if 10 people get out of prison, seven of them are gonna come back within a year.

Speaker 1: 53:09

Yeah, you mentioned that before but the people that were going through this drug program and similar programs in other states had more success at not coming back to prison than anybody with church affiliation or any of that Jesus stuff. So that started. It was like eating at me, nagging at me, like what, something may write. Something, you know, something may write. So we ended up Leaning on them because they had been doing this drug program thing for years, not a donson, they just started, but they knew things that we didn't know, like the practical, like how to get through and how to you know, how to confront behaviors and do all things. And so we reached out to them.

Speaker 2: 53:51

I mean, this was a second you mean you when you say we. You mean you, as inmates reach out to them.

Speaker 1: 53:57

Well, we, we had a lot of influence because we had Coverhouse Hugh Koon and Terry Bush. They all work for the chaplain.

Speaker 2: 54:05

These are inmates that work for the chaplain.

Speaker 1: 54:07

Yes, but they were the ones doing all his work, okay, so I mean, all he had to do was walk around and snap his badge and do all Things that he did right and I make the silly Baptist jokes that he made.

Speaker 2: 54:17

But if they made connection with him then he couldn't well, now they could influence him.

Speaker 1: 54:22

Okay, it's kind of like you. Like, if somebody wants to get to me and they ain't getting to me, if they get to you, you can get to me. Actually, probably is the only one that can really get to me, or my kids, yeah, but the chapel workers were a way to get the chaplain Lindsey. So if we figured out something when working, we need to do something different. We had our three aces in the hole that was cover house, koon and and Bush, like they were the ones that could get to him and say, hey, we need to do something different.

Speaker 1: 54:56

Yeah and so he set it up. There was a very successful drug program going on St Claire. They sent us two inmates from there that came and worked with us and Taught us. Like what they were doing that's cool, like this is how, but it was like they did, like stupid stuff that we would never do, like they shamed people, made them wear.

Speaker 1: 55:16

Well, you say stupid stuff, but if it works, I mean, some of that stuff works in them in the moment. But I knew, like you don't shame, you don't shame people into changing. You might shame people into changing for a minute, but then in prison they might come back around and put a shank in the side of your neck. Like you know they like they would do things like make people wear diapers, you know, because they're like it was the.

Speaker 1: 55:38

I end all that. We weren't in all that, but we wanted and we wanted to look at the parts of that program that worked and, for us, what we learned. What it was, it was confronting behaviors and dealing with issues and but not confronting behaviors like that, just being on like here. We need to do, like, whatever you're doing ain't working, we need to do something different. And we adopted that. They came in and worked with us for Three or four months. It was Tony Nolan, I Think he's still in prison.

Speaker 2: 56:11

You say these names, like I know who they are. Well, no, I thought I was Tony Nolan.

Speaker 1: 56:16

No, but I mean he was there were so helpful. They taught us so many things like. Y'all might be trying to start this program, but y'all don't know about convicts. You don't know how to make it work and he did because he'd been doing it for 15 years. How many times they did yeah and then there was another inmates. Name was Jarell Jones.

Speaker 2: 56:31

He came in that name sounds familiar.

Speaker 1: 56:34

You know Jarell Jones. I worked with him at the founder oh. Oh yeah, when I met him in 1998, when we're doing this. He was this little skinny black kid look like Erkel, but he wore. He wore like in prison. If you had to wear glasses, they gave you glasses, but they didn't try to make them look good. Yeah and he had like these thick glasses that were like I mean.

Speaker 2: 56:58

I have the picture that and I mean now that you say it, I'm like, oh yeah, yes, he worked with him. When I have his picture in my mind, but not with the thick glasses, looking like Erkel.

Speaker 1: 57:06

He don't look like that anymore. Yeah well, he came in, he helped us.

Speaker 2: 57:09

He's like a good-looking guy.

Speaker 1: 57:11

But he liked to cuss when he was teaching. Like you get up there and be like cussing and I mean I can relate to that. No, but I was like why do you have to do all that? Like why do you have to cuss? And he was like they Hear me no other way and I was like well, you keep doing that. I mean I feel like Jesus don't want to be cussing people out, but he taught us so much like he told us Like how to deal with like the root cause and you know the root cause of of your wire hit. Why are you in prison? Yeah, it ain't cuz the white people put you in here right and.

Speaker 1: 57:40

I couldn't say that because I'm a white people.

Speaker 2: 57:42

Yeah, so you're white people. He also need to learn English.

Speaker 1: 57:47

Just confront, just confirming that's prison line. I know I'm just playing. Practice got me here, yeah, um, but he taught. He taught us so much. But, uh, I guess, going forward, I went to work for the Foundry in 2014. There was a guy named Jarell Jones that went to work for the Foundry in 2015. We worked together for like three and a half to two or three years we worked together. He was a counselor, one of the most effective counselors We've ever had at the Foundry, because he confronted behaviors like he didn't let people do this.

Speaker 2: 58:19

I don't know if you said this. The Foundry is a.

Speaker 1: 58:21

I'm sorry. The Foundry is a a Ministry and outside of Birmingham and Best of Alabama is just helping people find freedom from addiction. I recovery and reentry and people go to prison. But he, we worked together. I loved. I loved working with him. He was like we're in the same. Like you know, let's deal with the issue. Let's don't sure code all things and when Pastor Bill, who founded the Foundry and he's one of my hero, you know I love Pastor Bill, I love his story, everything. He's helped so many people when he was retiring in 2016, at A staff meeting, I felt like I was supposed to tell him what he meant to me and I told him. You know, when I was in prison, investomer at West Jefferson, I used to hear you on the radio and there was something about your voice that you know just gave me hope. And Jarell was on the other side of the.

Speaker 2: 59:13

You know there's 100 people that you've been working together for two plus years, yeah.

Speaker 1: 59:17

I mean not just working together, like we work closely, like we had, like I was running the food service and I had people working with me that were his camp, he was their counselor and we were like he was coming from the left, I was coming from the right, like we want to see this boy make it.

Speaker 1: 59:31

Right you know, and he texted me and said I need you to call me quick. And then he was calling me and I was like what are you talking about? And then, like I can't call you during a staff meeting, and he came up to Me after that and and he said I need to talk to you right now. And I said Is everything okay? Like he called me outside and he was like you're James Jones. And I said Okay, he was like you're James Jones, here's James Jones from Donaldson Correctional Facility. You help start the honor dorm?

Speaker 1: 1:00:01

and so I said yeah, okay and he was like do you remember that one hot summer when you are first starting the honor dorm and Y'all need to help because y'all struggling, you didn't know what to do and you got some inmates? They came from st Clair to help and I was like, yeah, and he said do you remember a skinny black kid With thick glasses that looked like Erkel? And I was like, yeah, jarell, jarell Jones. And I was like Jarell Jones, it was great, like Like we never. But he didn't have glasses.

Speaker 1: 1:00:32

He didn't look like that anymore and, um, it's crazy, but he is that is insane but he, but he's still doing that, he's still trying to help people, still trying to look, he's still cussing too little bit but you know, we cuss a little bit. Let's not be judgy, I'm not, I was, I was judgy, damn. But now I'm like me and Jarell, we're in the same. You know, we drive in the same car heading to the same destination. Not that I'm like trying to cuss, but I mean we can just be real.

Speaker 2: 1:00:58

Yeah. We can do all that that's a really cool story though.

Speaker 1: 1:01:03

It was. It's beautiful, but there was. There was just so many like pieces. It was just like God provided everything we needed To do, everything you have for us to do, and it happened so fast. It was so fast. So there was a ministry called we care ministries out of South Alabama that were sending volunteers in and and they sent this one guy in. He came in and there was something about him that I couldn't figure him out. My problem with this guy was he came in and said he was I'm just here to help and I was like help what? And he was at ease with us, like here's no uncomfortable. There was no discomfort, like he would go sit and just talk, and it was just like he was good.

Speaker 2: 1:01:49

He was in his you know element and I couldn't figure out saying like that he, like you, didn't feel like he had an agenda of any sort.

Speaker 1: 1:01:57

No, he didn't. Yeah, it was like he was sincerely coming in to try to help us but he didn't need nothing back, like he didn't need credit. He didn't need credit, he didn't need. And I couldn't figure him out. Like I was like who, who is that guy with the shiny shoes in the weird name? And they said, well, he's midnight. So I was like what is midnight? I mean, I know about some of the dog, I don't know about them. What is midnight? Is that like the Midi nights in the Old Testament? Like no, no, it's like. You know, you have to look it up. They're kind of like Amish, but Amish light they don't, you know they're not, they're not flashing that stuff. And so Did you say Amish light? That's what they call. I'm not saying that's what it is.

Speaker 2: 1:02:37

No, I just never heard that Amish light.

Speaker 1: 1:02:39

It's like I'm talk about denominations.

Speaker 2: 1:02:41

I mean, I've just heard Mikalob light and but like, well, this is like the light.

Speaker 1: 1:02:46

I don't know. It was like. They said almost like, but it was uh especially. It's like a sect of Christianity and it comes from Europe and it was during the time of the Reformation. They, uh, they're called Anabaptists and they didn't baptize their kids because they felt like when you say anti, are you saying anti-baptists, my anti-baptists is actually baptists, like our baptists in america. They're anabaptists.

Speaker 2: 1:03:12

I will A&A.

Speaker 1: 1:03:14

Baptists, anabaptists. The term means that we don't baptize our babies. We dedicate our babies to Jesus, but our babies need to Like people. When they come of age, they need to make a decision to follow Jesus, because God don't have no grandkids, okay, so make sense.

Speaker 2: 1:03:30

I feel like we're going opening another camp, or else let's don't get stuck in that.

Speaker 1: 1:03:32

Yeah, anyways, they're very simple. They love Jesus. They're uh, anti-war, anti anything. You know, a Lot of americans don't like menonites because they think you can't have a war and I'm like if we didn't have a military we would have a country. But uh, anyways, I digress.

Speaker 2: 1:03:51

Yes.

Speaker 1: 1:03:52

I met him. He came in to help us. He said he came in to help us. I didn't know. He was like who are you? And he had shiny shoes, which was weird, you know, coming prisoner with shiny shoes on. And he was so at ease and so confident and was just like I'm, I'm here to help and my name is Steve Longenacker and I want to help you. And I was like help me, what you know? I didn't trust him, but he would end up becoming like one of the Out of all the relationships I was I've ever had in my life. He was the man like. He wasn't my father, like you know, but he was the man who would eventually help me to go from being a boy to being a man and grow up In prison, out of prison. You know. You know the story.

Speaker 2: 1:04:40

Yeah, but we're gonna unpack that more.

Speaker 1: 1:04:42

Yeah, but uh, we'll cover in the next episode We'll talk about we haven't really talked about chris, you know he was a big part. Chris townsen, he was a big part of, you know, starting on a dorm right, yeah. He was going up for parole. You know all things.

Speaker 2: 1:04:55

Yeah, did he make it? I want to know. That was a cliffhanger from last, last week.

Speaker 1: 1:04:59

Well it was. It was a price We'll talk about next week. Um, Um, yeah, I had a big problem with chris because he was charismatic, Like he was like. I think if you did a personality, he's probably like an eye.

Speaker 2: 1:05:11

I was gonna say, it cares, he sounds like me.

Speaker 1: 1:05:14

Yeah, it's different when you got two guys like yeah and everybody loves chris and their names. It's kind of like judo and royal, our sons, our twins. Like judo is like hey, everybody's like hey judo, yeah, and there's one here. I did side eyeing everybody yeah so that was kind of this kind of we went but uh, good stuff coming, let's just keep going, you good yeah it's very interesting.

Speaker 2: 1:05:40

I feel like we have several things like to cover next time, but that's it's good, it's exciting.

Speaker 1: 1:05:45

We do. Also, don't forget about what we're doing on the for real. Real, it's our, our subscription content. We're having it. We're having an exciting time. We're talking about real stuff.

Speaker 2: 1:05:55

So just become a patron of the show and you can get. You'll hear about that on our website.

Speaker 1: 1:06:00

Absolutely. Look it up, become a patron. Come on, subscribe, you got your own special.

Speaker 2: 1:06:03

It'll be worth it, I promise.

Speaker 1: 1:06:05

All right, well, we'll see you guys. Thanks so much.

Speaker 2: 1:06:07

Thanks guys, see you soon.

Speaker 1: 1:06:10

Hey guys, thanks so much for tuning in to the straight out of prison podcast. For more exclusive content, head over to our website, team Jonesco.

Speaker 2: 1:06:19

Yes, you can subscribe by clicking on the become a patron button and that's going to get you access to our for real real, which is very different than the highlight real some very juicy Content there good stuff.

Speaker 1: 1:06:33

Or you can look us up on facebook and instagram straight out of prison.

Speaker 2: 1:06:37

Podcasts yes, that takes the story to a whole new level, where you can see Some of the people that james talks about in his story and see some of the places that he's been, and I've been loving it, and you will too.

Speaker 1: 1:06:48

Prison recipes, yeah but thanks, I guess we'll see you soon guys.

Speaker 2: 1:06:53

Thanks, bye.