From Lockdown to Leadership: The "Best" of Season 2

Imagine walking the tightrope of life, navigating the anxiety of transitioning from one prison to another. This is the raw, heart-wrenching story of our guest, James, who uncovers the emotional turmoil of his journey and the beacon of hope he discovered along the way. A conversation with a little old man in jail sparked an unexpected source of resilience, leading him to find solace in the pages of the book of Matthew. Sit back as James shares how, even in the darkest of corners, hope can bloom.

Ever pondered the power of a soul-awakening moment? Get ready to dive deep into the transformative journey of John Wesley, whose relentless quest for a faith that resonated with him continues to impact many lives. We delve into a meaningful dialogue on his spiritual journey and how it intersects with our own experiences. James's path to salvation, his unexpected discovery of faith within prison walls, is a testament to the human spirit's endurance. 

Join us as we follow James's thrilling journey to freedom, from his last day at the honor dorm to his first steps into civilian life. We unpack his overwhelming mix of emotions, from joy and relief to fear and confusion. You'll hear how he found an outlet for his passion in cooking, guided by a French chef, a job that seemed out of place but eventually became a significant part of his life. It's a story that proves you can find your purpose in the most unexpected places. Tune in for an episode that's as thought-provoking as it is inspiring.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 5:06

Well, hey guys, this is James K Jones, and you're about to hear the best of season two, and Hayley and I are busy working on season four. It will be premiering on September 7th 2021. We're also working on revamping our Patreon page for RealReal, narrowing the gap and more, so stay tuned. Thank you so much for your support and we love you guys. Hey guys, welcome to season two, episode one of the Straight Out of Prison podcast.

Speaker 2: 5:38

My name is James K Jones and this is my story and I am Hayley Jones, and this is his story. That has now become a part of my story.

Speaker 1: 5:46

Well, this is kind of a milestone. We made it to season two. How cool was that.

Speaker 2: 5:50

Yes, it has been so fun.

Speaker 1: 5:52

It has. This has shocked me how much we've enjoyed this and just how much it's helped me get my own.

Speaker 2: 6:00

Yeah, so you did your 45 day. It was 45 days right In the very beginning. Your drug and where you're robbing people. You went to prison, spent your first three and a half years in Florida prison and I believe we ended with you were in transition on your way to Sweet Home Alabama.

Speaker 1: 6:26

As an inmate, you dream of the day when you get to walk up to that. You know that front gate and walk out. Well, I got to the front gate, but I had a hold on me in Alabama, so I had a transfer van waiting on me.

Speaker 2: 6:39

So I've only seen the movies and, yes, it is like someone's waiting for them, for a person, when they comes out and they run and hug and cry and I don't think I've ever seen where you were locked up and then just go into the next prison.

Speaker 1: 6:54

Yeah, that was that, doesn't? That takes a toll on your mind, on your emotions, on really on your. Everything that was and there was another part of that was you want to cry, you just want to ball your eyes out, but there were already two or three other guys in that transfer van, so you don't want to show weakness in front of people. I was just excited to be getting see some Alabama land after all those years. But then what happened next was, I don't know. It was probably one of the lowest, lowest points of my life was when they pulled the van out. He went down highway 280, which cuts through the heart of Phoenix City, and just seeing, you know, that's why I grew up just seeing, and it looked like nothing on that side of the river changed. Obviously the Olympics weren't coming to Phoenix City, but just it just was depressing and just seeing, just seeing it with my eyes. And then the worst was when we got down to the edge of Phoenix City, we got stopped at a red light and at that red light there were some trees off to the right and I knew that behind those trees was my mom's house and I knew that she was there and it just it was just like life, like what happened, like how did I get here? And just feeling that. It was just like a deep, like depression, but at the same time I wanted to cry but I couldn't cry because they were like at that time I think we had like eight other guys in there and you don't show weakness in front of other inmates, because they'll take advantage of you and just like sucking that in and you know, just and again. I know I put myself in that situation, but there was something about that visual of like seeing the trees and like knowing like if he were to take a right, I could be home in a minute. It was rough.

Speaker 1: 10:21

Mike Collec, he was a French chef and he was not from around there but he had came there to start the Chattahoochee River Club, which was a big deal down there. There wasn't a lot of nice stuff like that, but it was a private supper club in Columbus, georgia, and it was like the talk of the town for a couple years while they were building, because they built a river walk to go with it and when they started hiring for the restaurant part of it, a friend of mine was going to put in an application and talked me into going with him. And I wasn't interested in I mean, I knew I didn't fit in that world, but I went anyways, just to do it because he wouldn't stop bugging me about it. And when was this? That was the year, two years before I got into the drug deal. It was when my cousin was gone. Okay, and you?

Speaker 2: 11:09

were doing good.

Speaker 1: 11:10

Everything was going well and I met this guy, went into his office to fill application and all the people in there had on like suits and ties and I had on a t-shirt and a baseball cap, and so I felt, I mean I felt out of place. And I remember he called me in and basically asked me why aren't you putting an application to work here, like I hired people? Have you been to culinary school? So I said no and he said then why do you think you could work with me? And I was like who are? I don't even know who you are.

Speaker 1: 11:44

But he had like a, he had a French accent and he talked you know, he talked funny and he offended me and so I just, I mean, I knew after that initial conversation, well, he just made me feel stupid, he made me feel like nothing and like he pointed to me, like had this big stack of application. He said these are all qualified applicants. Like why would you even bother? And it just pissed me off. So I said I mean I didn't think there was a shot then, but I was like I can do anything. I set my mind to and if you're talking about working in the kitchen, if you would show me what to do I can. Once I learned it, I can do it. I mean, if you'll teach me how to do it, I can do anything if you teach me how to do it. And I left there just knowing that. I pissed him off and he pissed me off.

Speaker 1: 12:29

But it was about three weeks later I got a call from him and he chose me to be on his launch team and I mean, it was a lot of money, insurance, it was a really good job and I was actually scared to take the job because I knew that was that's not my world. You know the fancy French people. But he ended up being would end up being like one of the bedrock relationships in my life because he taught me everything he knew. He taught me, you know, I knew how to cook my granny's way and you know the Ryan Steakhouse way and stuff like that. But he taught me how to make everything for scratch, taught me how to make pasta, taught me how to make sauces. He even one time maybe, make crackers from scratch and I'm like crackers, but he wanted every. That was his philosophy.

Speaker 2: 13:16

Tell me, did you ever ask him why he chose you? Because that is interesting.

Speaker 1: 13:23

Later on he told me he felt like that Jesus put me on his heart, which I didn't. You know, I didn't believe in all that, so it didn't make any sense to me. But he was a new. He had been like an alcoholic and, you know, just like a rowdy, you know chef guy. And he had, him and his wife had had this experience where they had got radically what he called saved and I I wasn't into that, I didn't want to hear all that.

Speaker 1: 13:50

He would be teaching me how to make pasta and then talking to me about Jesus and I'm like, all right, I'm sure there's some kind of law like you can't. Have you ever heard of the separation between church and state? Like this is what we're doing in America. We don't, we don't mix this stuff. But he never gave up on me. Like he invited me into his home with his kids, his wife's family, taught me everything he knew and I worked for him for a couple of years. But then there at the end, when I got on drugs, he knew something was going on and I told him I had to get out of there and he was going to send me to Atlanta. He had a friend that ran a hotel there, a Spanish hotel, I guess. It was a Spaniard friend and that was the plan. But that day I couldn't stop thinking about his story because he would try to explain to me like there's this plan of salvation.

Speaker 2: 14:35

Oh, it's a witch day. Could you not stop thinking about his story?

Speaker 1: 14:39

That one I was on the transfer van to Montgomery Alabama. I just see my mom's house, and it was just at the end of myself, Like just couldn't. But I was. I couldn't stop thinking about Patrick's little store because he would try to explain this stuff to me and it would make my head hurt and then I would go home and smoke weed and then I would say, oh, this is what he meant, this is what he meant. And then the next day I tried to explain it to him and then I couldn't. So it was just he was using like words and imagery and stuff that I didn't know what he was talking about, Like like there's a throne, there's a little seat that sits in your heart, and you're sitting on it or the devil's sitting on it, and this is how he talked, I mean, and you have to let Jesus sit on the throne. And I'm like, okay, I mean I don't believe in that.

Speaker 2: 15:31

So I think it's so interesting, though, because I mean, what's going through my mind as you're talking about this and just hearing you know your previous prison experience, and it's something that I can't really imagine, because on Facebook and the social media, you saw these memes like take control of your life, make the decision to start today, whatever it is that you're going to start to make your life better. But in your situation, in people when, or anyone when they're in prison, it's like, literally, you have no control, like they have control, whoever they have control. And so you get to the point I mean this is what it sounds like to me that I mean you're just kind of realized that and are grasping for anything to give you some kind of a relief or hope.

Speaker 1: 16:17

Yeah, you know I went to sleep that night had, you know, full of hope, excitement, you know just like going home, like one extreme to the other.

Speaker 2: 16:27

The lowest of those two like the highest of highs.

Speaker 1: 16:30

Yeah, and I knew that I probably wouldn't stay out, that I was probably going to get some kind of a, but it was possibility, like they could give me some kind of time served or something you know they could do. They could do whatever they wanted. I was just happy to be, even if it was just for two weeks, to be able to go home and see my family. I just want to see my family without you know looking through glass or you know all that stuff. So the next morning I woke up and you know they had I think they had pancakes or something they didn't normally have for breakfast and I gave those away because I knew I wouldn't eat them because I would be at the waffle house very, very shortly. You know it was like then it was like oh yeah, you know that was first thing we're going to do. We got to eat. The eight o'clock turned into nine o'clock, nine o'clock turned into 10 o'clock. Around 10 o'clock I started getting nervous and then there was one or two guys in there that I've been talking to and they told me you know, montgomery County is the worst county in Alabama that your people are probably down there for four hours and they're just. It's just how they do here. Ain't nothing you can do about it. You might as well just relax. Everything's going to be okay.

Speaker 1: 17:31

10 turned into 11, 11 turned into 12. Lunch came. I didn't eat that either, but then I started thinking maybe I should eat one, because if you don't eat what they give you, you don't get nothing else. I mean, I started thinking maybe I should, maybe I should try to eat the nasty lunch. I don't know, I was confused, I didn't know what to do, but I started having like this pit in my stomach where I just knew whatever you think is going to happen is not fitting to happen. And it was just that sick, sick feeling. And I waited till like one o'clock and I called my mom and I couldn't. She answered the phone which told me she was not there. When she answered the phone, Because there's no cell phones.

Speaker 2: 18:12

This is a landline. Yeah, there was no cell phones.

Speaker 1: 18:16

Yeah, I mean there were for, like, wall Street executives, I guess, but not for what?

Speaker 2: 18:19

year was this I think I got my first cell phone in 96. No, I think so.

Speaker 1: 18:24

Maybe you did. Well, I didn't know anything about it, If there were. I have been gone since 93. And actually when I got into prison in 1999 and everybody was running around with cell phones, I thought they were crazy. I mean, it took I didn't get my first cell phone in 2002. I didn't want one. Yeah, I didn't want people to be able to get me. That's hilarious. Like I don't want to be in my car and you be able to call me and I have to answer and talk to you. I'd rather you leave me a message on my answering machine.

Speaker 2: 18:51

Okay, we digress. So one o'clock you call your mom, she answers she starts.

Speaker 1: 18:56

She's. I can't understand what she's saying. She's like crying, I don't know what she's saying. She just she won't, she won't stop crying. She's just I don't know. So she puts by this time she had gotten back together with her fourth husband, who she was divorced from. I stepped out of Jeff. They had gotten back together and I guess they were kind of married, but they never got married. I don't, I don't know what that was, but anyways, he lived there. He got on, he jumped on the phone and he was a, you know, kind of a redneck. No, he was a redneck for real. My mom could pick him.

Speaker 1: 19:28

He got on the phone and started like this rant, like telling me that my aunt Sue was. She was calling her names and then talking about my uncle. And then he told me they don't care about you, they don't want to get you out, they don't give a damn about you. And I was like what are you? Put my mama back on the phone. So I got my mom back on the phone and couldn't make any sense of what she was saying, other than they they couldn't that. My aunt Sue and my uncle burning couldn't do the bond. So I said, well, let me call them and I'll call you back and you know everything's going to be all right. I don't know how it's going to be all right and I actually shot myself that I was telling her I was going to be okay because I didn't know where that's coming from. Does that make sense? Yeah, so I called my aunt, sue, and she was very upset. She was crying too and what happened was she went to sign the property bond, do everything like she said she was going to do. But her friend is the sheriff, right, her friend don't work at the sheriff's office, her friend is the sheriff, he was the one helping her and he knows everything. So he came out as they were signed the property bond and said Sue, they've got a hold on him in this county, this county, this county and this county. If you bond him out, he's not going to get out, they're just going to transfer him to another county and then you'll never be able to bond him out of all the counties. So you might as well just let him sit it out and see what. See what happens.

Speaker 1: 20:51

And I agreed with her. You know it was devastating, but I agreed with her. Like there's no reason to bond me out of Montgomery, just for me to go to jail somewhere else. And then there was no. He also said there's no indication that they would even give me a bond. So because they have different, different counties, have different kind of holds, and just because I had a bond in Montgomery don't mean I would have one in Shelby County.

Speaker 1: 21:16

And it was just all this old stuff was coming up and they basically didn't want me to get out. So I agreed with her, I told her you know, it's just, you did the right thing and then. But she was crying and then she said she was upset because my mom's husband or ex-husband or whatever he was had, was saying like mean things about her, like saying that she didn't care about me and she was this, that and other and they. She was more bothered by that. And I just said well, you know what, sue? He's just an ignorant redneck. And I hope you don't think I'm listening to any of that, because I know you, you know anyways, I don't even care what he's got to say, because I hope you know I'm not living that kind of life anymore. I've decided to take a different path.

Speaker 3: 22:04

We'll be right back.

Speaker 1: 22:11

Head over to our YouTube channel for recipes, podcasts, and now we're even live streaming stuff to give you guys real glimpses into our daily lives.

Speaker 2: 22:19

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Speaker 1: 22:23

We've added the first five season of the straight out of prison podcasts and even if you listen to all of them, check out the video format to see pictures behind the scenes and a whole lot more.

Speaker 2: 22:33

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Speaker 1: 22:41

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Speaker 2: 22:54

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Speaker 1: 23:03

You'll get early access to all of our podcast platforms, and they're completely free from ads. Thank you, thank you, thank you, guys, for all your support, all your encouragement and thank you for being a part of our story.

Speaker 2: 23:31

You said that to.

Speaker 1: 23:33

I said that to her but I didn't even know. I was just saying, not the redneck life, not that. You know the way he thinks, like he's always thinking somebody's against him and you know everybody's out to get you. That's all I was talking about.

Speaker 2: 23:44

Okay, so how you're defining the redneck life is, I mean just to be clear Not all rednecks, just right.

Speaker 1: 23:51

The way I grew up, the rednecks that I knew they were mean, they were vindictive, it was always a battle of fight. It was just always you know something I don't want to be a part of. And I said I'm going, I'm choosing a different path. And when I said that, she started like ball and crying and then laughing and crying and I'm just thinking what's wrong with her, like I mean, like what are you doing? So she's like snot crying. And then she said I said what's the matter? So what's the matter? She said, boy, are you trying to tell me that you got saved? And so I said no, no, I'm not, I'm not trying to tell you that. And then she said well, you know, I've been praying for you all these years and she's a good Baptist.

Speaker 2: 24:41

Did you know what she meant?

Speaker 1: 24:43

I knew the phrase, I knew what saved me, because I'd seen them. They always did that, but then they would get unsaved and then they go get saved again and all that stuff. So it didn't. It wasn't a, it wasn't anything that I was fond of or whatever applied to myself. I got saved. I mean, if you want me to get saved, come bond me out of jail, save me. I've been saved. I'm out Two or three books there was one that was thicker than others, and thick books take longer to read, so you can kind of get lost in them. And I just needed to go, you know, get on my mat and read or do something to get out, get my mind out of my situation. So it makes sense.

Speaker 2: 25:20

Where you were basically.

Speaker 1: 25:22

Yeah, so there was a book. The cover was like ripped off of it, but I thought I'll figure it out. I picked up the book walking back to my mat and it wasn't like the inside words, it was like there was like little like blurbs on the front part of the book. You know how they might take a little portion of the book and put little I don't even know what that is like teases or whatever and it said come on to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I'll give you rest. And I just it just like jumped off at me.

Speaker 1: 25:54

I remember that happened to me one time before and I found like a Bible study or something when I was at BCI and I was holding it and I thought, well, I sure am weary and burdened. And then like open it up and then seeing like the chapter and verse and realizing that it was, it was the Bible, and I was like, oh no, like no, I can't, I can't do that, I can't do that. But then for some reason I held on to it. I went back to my mat and I sat down and I was just looking at it and it was not a King James Bible, it was actually a new international version and it had like English words that I understood. And I looked through that little front piece and was about to get up and go put it back when it was like I could hear the words of this little old man that used to come in.

Speaker 1: 26:52

He did like prison ministry stuff. He came in when I was in Monticello and I really liked him as a sweet little old man and he would always want to talk to me and I'd always listen to him and let him pray for me and then forget everything he said soon as he left. But it was like that day, like his words just spoke to me and I hadn't seen him in like three and a half years and he said, son, when you start reading God's word, you need to start with the New Testament. It's the story of Jesus and that's what you need to know, what he did for you. And so I sat down, found the middle of the you know where the New Testament was.

Speaker 1: 27:24

I started reading the book of Matthew. I started at chapter one and you know I was a little confused with all those genealogy stuff. And then, you know, virgin Mary born all the things and was just reading it and I got through like I think it was chapter seven when I realized everything I know about religion and Jesus and God and all stuff, everything that I know and everything that I hate about it, and everything I saw with my own eyes growing up Seems like he's agreeing with everything I'm saying, like well, it sounds like this dude sees it the same way I see it.

Speaker 2: 28:06

This dude referring to Matthew. No to Jesus, To.

Speaker 1: 28:09

Jesus. Okay, like the sermon on the Mount where he was basically tearing down everybody's religious hypocrisies and all the you know everything I saw growing up. It was like he saw it too, yeah, and he was speaking to it like he wasn't even and I was just like I wonder why I never heard. I mean, I'm weird, I've never heard that before. So I just kept reading and by that time I think I went back and reread some of it because I was like ain't, no way, you know, that's not. I mean, that's not.

Speaker 1: 28:43

Whoever painted the picture of that to me did not paint it like that. It was a different, I guess, like a different painting. It wasn't like in my mind. It was never presented to me like that. I went back and read it again and then I didn't know what to do with it. I was a.

Speaker 1: 29:00

It was a weird night, like I had read the book into the night. Everybody was asleep and I was there on my mat under the stairs. That was the only place to put my mat on the floor, on the floor on the stage. But when people would walk up the stairs you got to think I wonder if there like toenails are falling off on me. I mean it was just gross. It was the grossest place I've ever been in my life. But I didn't had it. I'd read it Now I didn't know what to do with it. Does that make sense? I couldn't know. I didn't know. I didn't know what I would do with this information because it didn't make any sense to me. But then there was like this, in the middle of all that ugliness, there was like this presence and it was like it was peace that I had been feeling like little tastes of that the previous six months and it was I don't know. It didn't make any sense in my mind. Can you describe?

Speaker 2: 29:54

what the peace felt like. I mean because it's hard to I know it's hard to describe- it.

Speaker 1: 30:00

It was just like relax, everything's gonna be okay. I don't know it was. I honestly had never felt that before. I've had like glimpses of that. When I was journaling. I would get like glimpses of that, but not like it was different.

Speaker 1: 30:16

This night it was like I could feel it like all over. It was like a. It was like a presence in the middle of the ugliest place in my mind, on a planet. Like there was this weird peace, hope and I didn't know what to do with it. So I thought, well, surely I must be, I must be losing my mind. Like there was a battle in my mind, like I don't know what, I don't know what to do with this. And then I would like, I was like asking myself questions and it was like back forth and it was.

Speaker 1: 30:54

It was like hot and sweaty and humid and stunk in there Like it was just like. And then I had like this presence that was telling me come on to me, I know you're weird, I know you're burning, come on to me, I got you, just trust me. And I didn't. I've wrestled with that probably for two or three hours, like trying to like I don't even believe this, I don't believe any of this. And then it was. It wasn't like an audible voice, but it was like I heard it. It was very like, sweet and simple. It said all you have to do is give up and ask me to come in.

Speaker 1: 31:42

And I finally got to a place where I was like, okay, that means that that it, that's, all you need for me is just give up and ask you to come in. I give up and ask you to come in. It's crazy to say it now, but I got saved. But I really don't use those words because I don't like. I don't like that vernacular. I mean I know it is in the Bible and all that stuff. But that was when my heart changed and it was something that you really can't explain. But I gave up, I did. I got to the end of myself, I gave up and I said you know, if you're real, come on in, jesus, come on in. And he did.

Speaker 2: 32:35

And when he did, it was like could you feel when, when you said that something, something happened?

Speaker 1: 32:43

No everything, everything lifted from me and something on the inside of me changed, something on the inside of me came alive, that had been dead, that you can't put stuff like that into words, but it's like I tell. But you know, it's true. You know, I know I can't explain to you how my hands are connected to the end of my arms and how I can move them. I don't know how that works, but I know that my hands are connected to the end of my arms and I can move my hands. And it was the same that, the same knowing. Yeah, there's never, there's never been a doubt, but at that time I didn't believe any of that stuff. I didn't believe in any of the get saved or any of that stuff.

Speaker 3: 33:32

We'll be right back hey.

Speaker 1: 33:38

Katie, yeah, want to make a podcast, sure.

Speaker 3: 33:42

Can we talk about outrageously dark and scary things like murder and aliens?

Speaker 2: 33:46

Yeah, and is it cool if we talk about beautiful things like divination and astrology?

Speaker 3: 33:51

Yeah, that'd be cool. Hi, we're Katie and Kelly, hosts of the podcast.

Speaker 2: 33:56

All things outrageously dark, scary, beautiful and totally true, we recognize there's a lot of podcasts out there, but what sets us apart is our professionalism and dedication to our research.

Speaker 3: 34:07

New episodes every Wednesday, tune in and, of course, have the day you deserve.

Speaker 2: 34:19

Yeah, because you had said in the last end of the last season you about your soul awakening in Florida before you left.

Speaker 1: 34:27

That was more of a like, if you use like the literal terms. Now, I think I went from being an atheist because I was a stone cold atheist Like I don't, I have no problem knowing that. Like I knew there was nothing else but me and what I could get away with. But I came to. It was John, not John Maxwell, john Wesley who defined it as a soul awakening moment. And yeah, he was in the eighteen hundreds. He was I mean, I've studied all his writings and stuff like I really admire him.

Speaker 1: 34:59

He was a guy that grew up religious, he was in England, he was an Anglican and so which was would be our American version of an Episcopalian he did all the rituals, did all the things, had all the religion, but he was missing something. So he went on a missionary journey to the colony of Georgia and the thing that they were supposed to do during those times was to make the Indians become believers. But the way that they would make the Indians believe in Jesus was to pull a gun on them and say confess Christ or die. So they were like I love Jesus, I would do it.

Speaker 1: 35:36

They were telling me so, but he did two or three, I think two or three, I can't remember. He did, I know, at least two like missionary journeys to Georgia and his last one he was just get. So he was so frustrated, frustrated with his life and his faith in the church and all things, and he was on a ship going back to England and he heard a small group of I think they were called Moravian's I don't know the significance of that, I just remember the name but they were like not part of the big church, like they were just a small group of Jesus followers, and he heard them singing a song on the ship about the blood of Jesus and salvation and there was something in him that just came alive where he was like, whatever they have I need to have that because I have religion, you know and I think he was like confirmed in the church and had all the you know, robes and rings and sandals or whatever they gave him in those days, but he knew that someone right and he came to a soul awakening moment which led to a genuine salvation experience with him, where he met Jesus through his spirit, face to face, and it changed his life. And then he went back to England and started preaching and they kicked him out of the church and told him you know we don't want to hear all that, but he knew what he had was real and he kept at it and you know his influence, his writings, the, I guess, the churches he started, I mean that's flooded the world up to this day.

Speaker 1: 37:03

And that was kind of what happened to me. I was not religious, wasn't looking for religion and you know, 24 years in, I'm still not looking for religion. What I experienced in that dirty little jail cell was Jesus Christ, through his spirit, coming to me telling me all you got to do is give up and ask me to come in and then just trust me, come on to me, come to me. I got you, just trust me. And you know, I came to the end of that long night where I surrendered and I gave up and I said I give up, come in. And he did. And when he did, my heart was changed, and I don't even like to say my heart was changed. It was like there was something inside of me that had been dead all my life, that came alive in that time and I knew it. I knew it as much as I know that my hands are on the end of my arms and nobody could take that from me. And it changed everything about me. From that day forward. Now, I did have this.

Speaker 1: 38:02

I don't know if it was weird or it was just how. The way I grew up, I felt like I had this understanding with Jesus, like surely you're not asking me to go to church, like you know I'm not going to do church and you know, put on the pleated khaki pants and took my shirt and put a tone Like I'm not, you know, that's not, I'm not going to do all that. Waking up that next day, I felt like I need to make this like official. That makes sense. And I don't know if I'm going to do that. That makes sense, and I don't even know why. I thought that I just knew, okay, this was me and Jesus. This thing happened. Like I need to make it official.

Speaker 2: 38:40

Well, it's like anything else, I think we instinctively, if something big happens and you know something big has happened, you almost need to like confirm it, yeah.

Speaker 1: 38:49

And I didn't even really know how, but I knew they had chapel call and hurt them. And so I said, next time they say chapel call, I'm going to go chapel call. So I think it was the second or third day they did a chapel call and I was first in line and I marched myself. I marched myself down to the little chapel and you know there might have been 10 or 12 guys there. I didn't know I was doing, but I felt like I needed to, you know, make it official. So I just went, sat through the little service they did and then explained to the chaplain.

Speaker 1: 39:25

You know what I felt, like happened to me. And he was like well, son, you've you've experienced salvation, but to make it real, the scriptures clear, you have to do a public profession of faith. And so I was like well, what does that mean? And he was. He said, well, you guys stand up in front of everybody and confess Jesus is Lord. So I was like, okay, well, what do we need to do to make that happen? And so he gave me like this little piece of paper and I stood up and said you know, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I believe that God raised him from the dead, asked him to come into my heart and I make him Lord of my life. And then he said you're saved. So I was like, okay, I mean you say that, but what happened to me two days ago in the jail cell? Kind of pills in comparison to this little checkbox.

Speaker 2: 40:12

Okay, so did you think that at the time. I know you think that now, but it was that the thought that came into your mind.

Speaker 1: 40:17

Absolutely. I mean I felt like, okay, we're doing a religious thing and I don't really want anything to do that I mean I'll do it because I feel like I'm supposed to and I, you know, I've been reading the Bible for like two days, but then it was a Bible scholar. I read it. It was a process, but in the beginning for me it was so simple because I didn't, it wasn't clouded with like rules, regulations, any of that stuff. Does that make sense? Yeah, and for me it was like I felt like, okay, well, if I sin, the only sins I have is smoking cigarettes and masturbating. So if I can like not smoke cigarettes and not masturbate, I'm holy, I'm good. And that was a non-smoking facility, so we didn't have cigarettes, so that was not that knocked that one out.

Speaker 1: 41:09

Yeah, that was easy. That was easy one. But then you know the masturbating stuff. That was hard because that was how I took care of myself. I mean, I was only 24 years old. I even feel embarrassed hearing those words. So was that true? What?

Speaker 2: 41:22

do you got there?

Speaker 1: 41:26

I think the first thing that struck me about Kilby was it was like some kind of a weird like com warp, like this was 1996 and it was almost like it took me back to when I was a little kid in the 70s, when we would travel from Atlanta to Phoenix City, alabama. It was before they didn't have the interstate system built there yet. Like you couldn't travel from Atlanta to Phoenix City on an interstate so you had to go through all these back roads. You would just be so aggravated with the long trip, especially as a little kid, and you'd finally get there and it'll be like we're here and all you would see is like red dirt and steel and cotton mills. And because that was, you know that was basically what it was and there was something about that when we put up at Kilby that reminded me of going to Phoenix City as a little kid, like we're not in like the present time anymore. We're going back, you know, at least 50 years. But it looked like that a lot of red dirt, steel.

Speaker 2: 42:23

Was that like the Wizard of Oz, we're not in, not in Kansas anymore, not in Kansas anymore. Yeah so, but it was, it was kind of like that.

Speaker 1: 42:28

And then it wasn't as scary as Lake Butler had been, but it was the same process. They take you in there. They, you know. Take you in there, they you know. Take all your clothes, looking all your crevices and make you bend over, and all that stuff. That's the worst part.

Speaker 2: 42:44

It sounds like to me.

Speaker 1: 42:44

Well it is, but you get, you get used to it. I mean, it's what they do. They do that quite a bit. Then they shave your head, make you, make sure you shave really good. I remember the first thing I noticed was like they had like a weird, like like a straight not a straight razor but a razor that was like a razor blade stuck on the end of a pole. I was like what, how do you shave with this? Like I'd never seen. I'd never seen.

Speaker 2: 43:09

Why was it stuck to the end of a pole?

Speaker 1: 43:11

That was like an old time in, like fifties man's razor. It was like one of those big, thick razor blades that you screwed onto the top and then you had to figure out how to shave with it. It wasn't like a disposable razor or anything that you know that I was ever used to and you know 80, late 80s when I started shaving and I remember it cut my face up pretty bad. I did not use it. Then they shave your head. You know, take your picture, do all that stuff. And then here they threw like the powder stuff on us to make sure we had bugs.

Speaker 1: 43:41

You go through all that, but it was just much quicker, easier. They weren't. It was like they weren't trying to humiliate you, like they were at Lake Butler, they were just trying to get you through. So they fill you up. One of the major differences I guess that I noted was in Florida we wore blue uniforms and in Alabama everything was white and there's something about the white that felt a little more. I don't know if it was clean or you probably thought it felt more clean.

Speaker 1: 44:08

Well now the material felt like it was like softer, like cotton. The ones in Florida they were like rough, like rough fabric. But anyways, they processed us in, we got in. They put you in an orientation dorm, same as they did in Florida. Again, I was just everywhere. I went at Killby.

Speaker 1: 44:28

Those first couple of days I felt like I was like in a movie, but it was a movie that was from like when Ronald Reagan was acting Like it was not anything. There was nothing modern, everything was like old and decrepit and just like I don't know. It was just like a time warp. Yeah, does that make sense? Yeah, and I was just so excited for that popcorn, the best popcorn ever, right. And then I think I was there a day, maybe two days, not much longer than two days and they came to me in the middle of the day and they said you know, inmate Jones, pack it up, you're going to lockdown. And so Lockdown, yeah, that's what they. They don't really. When they tell you to pack your stuff, you just pack your stuff. They don't really. They don't have to tell you anything, but Alabama's a little more Like they would try to talk to you a little bit more because they're trying to keep riots and stuff down, whereas in Florida they would just tell you to shut up. So I was. I was like locked down, like I didn't, I haven't done, am I in trouble? I haven't done anything. And they said, well, coming up here, the sergeant explained it to you. So we got packed up my stuff and you know I'm walking through the camp thinking I didn't do anything wrong. So this is some kind of mistake. I mean, I've only been here for two days, three days by that time, or a week, I can't remember. I'd only been in general population for two days or a day and a half, something like that. So I was just confident that they made some kind of a mistake. You know they had the wrong guy, wrong name. And we walk up there and they're telling me the sergeant looks at me and says we're putting you in the lockdown, where they put the people with the life without parole sentences. So I was like I don't have no life without parole sentences. I'm the only guy I've got a 10-year sentence. That's all I got. And he said well, the DA in Shelby County, you have an appending case there and he is seeking life without parole against you. So that changes your classification. We have to put you in special population, and I think I almost passed out Just hopelessness, like in that kind of situation you would think it would be better if I was dead, you know For sure, than to be stuck in this.

Speaker 1: 46:48

I'd be better off dead. But I did. I believed, I was like, okay, you know, I trust you. I believe I'll just, however long I got to be here, I'll just spend my time, you know, studying the Bible. I need to learn, like your word and all that stuff. And it was the I believe it was the third or fourth day, but it was like after I'd like surrendered, like okay, whatever you want, I mean whatever you want to do, I'll figure out. Just if you help me, please help me, because I don't know you. Just you don't know.

Speaker 1: 47:27

I mean it's so saddening, these people crying, like they would bring the phones down. The guys would be on the phone crying and weeping and all through the night and it's just. I mean, I think it's different, like when you go to death row, like there's a death row, like you have a death sentence and that's that app more. Well, there's one at West Jefferson too, but they actually, you know you're on death row like 20, 30 years before you get executed, but they have them in like a pod where it's Most of those guys are. They know they have a death sentence. They've kind of processed it. So this at Kilby, these were people. It's fresh, so they got a life without parole sentence and it's fresh Like they haven't even processed the fact that I'm going to die in prison unless something, by some miracle, something happens.

Speaker 1: 48:20

And for me I didn't have the sentence yet, but the expectation was there. The DA said that's what he was asking for and that was again in the nines. It was just so popular to just drop one of them down on you. I mean it was like I think some of that was political, but it was like the public liked it. They liked it. They want to get you know, you want to be out here robbing people. We need to keep you locked up forever.

Speaker 1: 48:47

But I had a weird. It was like a word that God gave me Like my third or fourth day, but it was after I went through the process and surrendered and I did. I believed, like what else I got to do? I mean I ain't got no other options anyways. I mean I hate to say that, but it's the truth, like if you're talking to me and I'm listening and you got something for me, I want it. It's hard to explain, like when God, when you say that God spoke to you, like I don't know that I've ever had like a voice come down from heaven and speak to me. But from the onset, before I ever gave my heart to Jesus, like there was like a still small voice that told me all you have to do is give up and ask me to come in. And I was like okay, I give up. You know, when I got there, I give up, come in if this is real. And so it was kind of like another one of those experiences where he was just like all I need you to do is just trust me. And I was like, okay, I give up, I trust you. I mean, I don't know what to do. And he gave me like a flash. It was like a memory flash.

Speaker 1: 50:01

It was when I was in Bay County, which was in 1990, that would have been in 1993. So that would have been like four years before, and I was in with my public defender who sucked, like she wasn't even a good public defender, she was just trying to, you know, check the box, go to prison, you know whatever. But I was in a thing with her where they were, they had these things called. It's the way they score you to sentence you. So in Florida it was. It's ultimately up to the judge, but they like score you out for what your crime calls for and then, if you have priors, it makes your score go up. Does that make sense? It's like a credit score, yeah.

Speaker 2: 50:46

But it's just Except you don't want your score to be high.

Speaker 1: 50:49

in this case, this is a prison score.

Speaker 2: 50:51

Like you know-.

Speaker 1: 50:52

You want that score to be low. You want your prison score to stay low and plus my were harm robbery, so my was already high, but whatever your priors are will make your score go up. So when they were negotiating with my plea bargain with district attorney in Bay County, there in Panama city, she had the papers laid out and they scored me and they bumped my score up because I'd been convicted of battalion of law enforcement officer in Jefferson County. And she was like oh no, no, no, no, no, you can't use that. And they were like what do you mean? And she said technically that happened after he committed this crime, so you can't use that against him. You can't score him on that.

Speaker 2: 51:35

And I guess it's just one of those little roles that maybe some people don't know. There's a technicality, a technicality.

Speaker 1: 51:41

And it's a miracle that she knew, because she ain't even somebody that she didn't care about me, like I was just another case that she needed to but she made a thing out of it. And then they were like, oh, let us come back. And then they came back and said you're right, like we can't use that under the law, we can't use that against him, because it happened after. So my score stayed low, they gave me my six years and went to prison. I was in that cell, in this hopeless situation, and I remembered that and out like my mind I was like hold up, hold up, hold up.

Speaker 2: 52:12

Hold up, hold up, hold up, hold up.

Speaker 1: 52:13

Everything that they were using to give me the three strikes you're out happened after the crime that I committed in Shelby County. It was my first crime. That was my remember. You asked me what was the first armor I re-did. I told you it was in Shelby County. That was my first crime. So technically under the law they couldn't hold any of that against me and I just like was like ain't no way, like ain't no way, you know they're Really quick.

Speaker 2: 52:43

Just so I'm like clear. Why couldn't they hold that against you?

Speaker 1: 52:46

Because it happened after I committed the crime. So my first crime was in Shelby County, yeah, and I think it was November of 1993. The one in Montgomery was in December of 1993. The one I committed in Florida was in January of 1993. Oh, I'm sorry, 92. My first one was November of 1992, then December of 1992, then January of 1993. And then the Batting on the Law Enforcement Officer in the Jefferson County, florida, was in January of 1993. So all these things happened after that.

Speaker 1: 53:22

So they couldn't use it against me in the scoring, they couldn't score it against me, so they couldn't count against me. So three strikes, you're out did not apply. But now I'm a little kid sitting in a lockdown at Shelby Correctional Facility, facing life in prison without parole. And I have this information and I'm like Jesus, like are you telling me this? Like I mean, what do you want me to do? And I called for the phone, I called my mom and I got in touch with him and I told him that you know, and he was like let me get back with you. And then, like he got back with me, like in a couple of hours, was like you're right, they can't use that, they can't use that against you. Wow, and so the hopeless situation that I was in was over and they let me out. They like reverse the courage.

Speaker 2: 54:13

Wait, they let you out of lockdown.

Speaker 1: 54:15

Of lockdown. Okay, so I still had a 10 year sentence. Yeah, Like I still had to do that, but that was a 10 year sentence plus time served. So I mean it was only like a six year sentence and then with good time it could be. You know, I could have been out in a year.

Speaker 2: 54:28

Yeah, but going from thinking that you're more than likely going to be life without parole, you're going to die in there to reverse that.

Speaker 1: 54:37

But here's the other. Here's the miracle of that the lawyers didn't know that. They didn't know that. Jesus told me that. Yeah, I'm convinced.

Speaker 2: 54:47

I have no doubt they didn't know it, they were just like Well, let me go back to the situation of the DA that you said sucked that she knew that technicality, not DA. Public defender, oh, public defender.

Speaker 1: 54:56

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 54:57

That wasn't good and was not for you, and didn't care. She knew that technicality and she called him on it and called him on it and you remembered that.

Speaker 3: 55:08

We'll be right back. Hello nerds, Come listen to the History Nerd United Podcast and let's make history fun again. We interviewed today's best authors, whether they are established Pulitzer Prize winners or someone debuting their first book. Let us show you that history is not a boring class you took in high school, but a place where the best stories come from. And we don't just cover history. We also love to chat about true crime, biographies, memoirs and so much more. So head on over to History Nerd United and let us introduce you to your new favorite book and learn the story behind the story.

Speaker 1: 55:42

I don't think I remember because I remember at the time I didn't care, I mean I was like okay, whatever, it wasn't, it didn't, it didn't have a way, it wasn't a big deal.

Speaker 2: 55:58

It was as big a deal then as it was going to play out later.

Speaker 1: 56:01

But now what, four or five years later, I'm sitting on almost death row. It's not death row, it was life without parole row. And I remember that that morning, where they woke me up, it was spring of 1997. I was full of hope, full of faith, full of life, ready to do my next thing.

Speaker 2: 56:25

Go to the Bible program at St Clair.

Speaker 1: 56:27

Yes, I was so excited, I wanted to go. It was a Bible, it was a Bible college, but it was really just a program. But I was so excited about that I knew that was my next thing. And then they woke me up and told me to pack my stuff. I was going to the OC and as I was rolling out I was at the transfer gate getting ready to leave and for some reason I was fixated on the inmate worker that was processing my stuff.

Speaker 1: 56:54

So they have these big brown paper bags and then they write your name and then they write where you're going and I was fixated on him and I kind of got alarmed when I saw he wrote the letters WDCF on my bag. And to this day I can still see that big marker and the smell. It was like one of those old timey markers that smell like paint and just the smell of it and get nervous when I didn't understand. You know, like what was happening. And then, but you don't, they don't have to tell you anything, you just you do what they tell you to do. So there was a part of me that were like jumped with hope, like maybe they're sending me to one of those neat, you know they're always coming up with these programs. Well, I would find out later that was in Florida, where they're always coming up with programs in the state of Alabama. That was not the case.

Speaker 2: 57:43

No, I mean programs in.

Speaker 1: 57:44

Alabama. No. So I'm confused, trying to figure out where I'm going get in the van. It's me and I think two other guys and there's an old timer sitting next to me and you know we've already said an old timer. Somebody's been in and out of prison most of their life, right? So look over at him and he's got like this, just forlorn. Look on his face. And I'm sitting there trying to figure out what WDCF stands for and he looks over at me and he says it means West Jefferson. We're going to West Jefferson.

Speaker 2: 58:19

And my heart just sank because what you got Well, I was just going to say refresh me and us on West Jefferson, why did your heart sink? What did that exactly mean? I know that was a prison camp and a different one than St Clair, but yeah, so there are three max camps in Alabama West Jefferson, st Clair and Atmore.

Speaker 1: 58:39

Atmore is where they execute people. It's a pretty violent prison but it's not as bad as West Jefferson. West Jefferson is in West Jefferson County in Bessemer, alabama, and I had heard all the stories. West Jefferson is like a nightmare place. It's a place that they send people that are problems. It's just a place that you don't want to be.

Speaker 1: 59:00

And when he said West Jefferson, I was like trying to argue with him, cause I was like, no, it says WDCF, like that, how you get West Jefferson out of WDCF. And he said they changed the name to William Donaldson Correctional Facility after an officer that was murdered there by the inmates. And when he said that I just Lovely, no, I just freaked out, like I was like, I was like immediately, like kind of went into shock. Like you know, I didn't kill nobody, like, and I was a good inmate, I didn't get in trouble.

Speaker 1: 59:35

So as we pulled into the back gate, it was daytime, so people were out on the yard. I could see people everywhere and it was like a sea of like people in these white like uniforms or whatever, and I had never I don't know, I'd never seen anything like that. But as I got off the transfer van me and the two other guys that were with me and the people that were processing me through, and the way people were looking at me I'm standing at the back gate looking at West Jefferson, which was to me like the definition of I'm in hell, and there was a song that started going through my head.

Speaker 3: 1:00:11

And I was like I'm in hell.

Speaker 1: 1:00:44

And that's basically the Guns N' Roses song. Welcome to the jungle. You're going to die, so he was trying to scare me.

Speaker 2: 1:00:54

Like was he jumping up and waving his hands, like he was angry yeah like like what was happening you know it was.

Speaker 1: 1:01:03

It was a boo game, like he was trying to like, scare me into doing something that I wasn't going to do. I mean, you would have had to kill me to make me into all that. So he was basically trying to scare me into submission, and I would see this later on, after I understood the culture. The game was get some information about somebody, get somebody to bait them into a cell. You get them in the cell. You try the boo game once.

Speaker 1: 1:01:30

The true that if the boo game don't, well, that means trying to scare them. If that doesn't work, then you go and get some more people and then you rough them up and then they get scared and then they'll do whatever you want to do. So the boo game didn't work on me because I let them know I don't care what y'all are doing, I'm not going to be doing none of that. You know that's good for you. I mean, I'm not trying to tell you what you need to do, but don't let me try and pull me into something like that. And so he jumped up, you know, started waving his hands around, then he stomped off and then I got scared and I stood up to go. I was like I'm out of here, you know, because I realized then like it all made sense, like right in the it was all starting to click.

Speaker 1: 1:02:08

Everything. The pieces started falling in places, this little young kid and then there was like incense burning in the cell and they had it decorated with these little. It was really bad. So right at that time, as I'm trying to walk out, there were like six of them maybe it was five of them that just rushed in there and started like slapping me around and you know, you're going to submit, you're going to do what we say. And I panicked, I didn't know what to do and but I never really like saw myself as being like under a gang of people like that. I never, I never would have thought that would have happened to me. And they weren't like hitting me with their fists, they were like slapping me around, they were, they were scaring me, they were trying to scare me and the little blonde kid he left and it was like all these had all these guys in there.

Speaker 2: 1:03:00

But not the original man.

Speaker 1: 1:03:02

No, he was in there too.

Speaker 2: 1:03:02

He was the leader.

Speaker 1: 1:03:03

Okay, he was the leader of the pack, like he was the one, and he was just letting me know this is what we do here and this is what you're going to do. You're going to submit. And so I went into strategy mode. I got to figure out how to get myself out of this situation. I thought that I would do better one-on-one than I would five-one. There's no way I could do anything with five-on-one, because I was fixing to get gang raped is what was fixing to happen to me. I hate to say this and Mama, I hope you're not listening to this. I mean, I've told her, but she don't want to hear this.

Speaker 1: 1:03:40

My cousin and I came up with a strategy when we were in the Jefferson County. This is going to sound crude and it's going to sound bad, but I'm just going to tell you what we decided. We knew we were going to prison and we had six months where we were together, where all we could do was talk about these things. The strategy for if somebody tried to rape us was what we were going to do was ask them we'll just let them give you a blow job and then we're going to bite their wiener off.

Speaker 2: 1:04:07

Oh, my God.

Speaker 1: 1:04:08

I mean no, but if you bit off one wiener, nobody will ever mess with you again. I mean seriously.

Speaker 2: 1:04:17

I mean, it's hard to even think that this was like a real life situation.

Speaker 1: 1:04:21

This was I mean, but we were, this had been like four years ago. But my mind went back to that strategy, Like if I could, if I could just revert, like I can, I can do that. That's what I'm going to do and that's what I decided that I was going to do. Oh my God. So I acted like I relented, like okay, you know how, how explain this? How, how explain to me? So they said I had to belong to one of them, so one of them will claim me.

Speaker 2: 1:04:46

So I was. So when so we're still in the cell you said, okay, what I have to do. And then one of them claimed you, one of them claim me, and it ended up. What did that look like, did he say I?

Speaker 1: 1:04:55

claim him. Yeah, he's mine, this was mine, I got him, he's going to be mine. Oh, this is so sick, but it happens, it happens. It happened then, and it happens it's. I mean, I can tell you it's hard for me to sit here and listen to this. It's hard for me to sit here and say it, to be honest, but there was um, like as soon as we got in the cell by ourselves together, like he started taking his clothes off and he was like he was butt naked, a grown man, butt naked, fixing to do something to me. So I was trying to figure out, okay, how? You know what's the? You know how can I negotiate, figure this out? And then there was a part of my mind that was trying to pray, like you know, and I was like Jesus. I know you got me, but if you ain't gonna help me, I got to help myself. I mean, I got you know he's about to lose an appendage. Yeah, he was going. It was going to be not good for me. Oh, my God, I can't. Um, but no, but it, but it gets better, like in the middle of all that, as all that's going down, I've got my plan. I know what I'm doing, I'm going to do, and I've got to do it because this is the only way out.

Speaker 1: 1:06:01

The police stormed in like four or five of them stormed in and like snatched me back. Basically, they were telling me that I should have just submitted and learn how to. Uh, how did he say you just need to learn how to get along here, you need to learn how to live here. And I was like I'm not going, I'm not going to live like that. I mean, kill me, like execute me and do whatever you want to do. I'm not doing that. So they went back and forth, came back again and then, um, the lieutenant came in and said I decided I was going to put you in lockdown for a couple of days till. Thanks, cool off, and we'll decide what to do. I made my bed and got in it and you were by yourself in there.

Speaker 2: 1:06:50

Yeah, it was just me At least, that would mind when kind of nice huh or no not being locked up.

Speaker 1: 1:06:56

I mean, it's not a big sale, um, but I cried myself to sleep and, uh, confused and understand, uh, somewhere during the night Um, I don't know how long I slept. I slept for a couple of hours and I woke up and I was like, oh, like, oh, that was a dream. Like I had a bad dream, I'm still at QB. And then I rolled over and I realized not what a dream happened and I was so confused and I, just, on the other side, where I put all my stuff down, I saw my green Bible and I just I got out of the bed and I went and got my green Bible and I took it and I rolled up with it and snuggled it like it was my mama and I it was the only thing I had I took my Bible and I went to sleep and that was, uh, day one. That was tough. Baby, you're crying. I'm sorry you're making me cry. I'm not trying to make you cry, but I feel like.

Speaker 2: 1:08:11

I can't. I'm honestly like you think of. I mean I think of you because I love you, but I also think of like just any like. I mean I think of you know my son, and like with these men, all of these men are somebody's son, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:08:27

But it's the game, it's the culture, it's the game, it's the way, it's the system that they've got set up there and it's not easy to break that. I mean, you don't. But for me, the way I see it comes from the top, like if they allow their institutions to be ran like that, they allow that to go on, and then I feel like they the blame rests with them, because prison I'd seen it done differently Don't have to be like that, right, but uh, that's the reality of where I was, it's the reality of West Jefferson, and that's probably. My wife is over here crying, or I balls out. I wasn't trying to make you cry, I'm just trying to. I don't even know if I've ever told you this part of the story. I might have like told you, like glossed over it, um, but this was, this was real. I mean, I almost got gang raped and uh could end it up dead.

Speaker 1: 1:09:23

Oh gosh, you were what six months in, at that point it was six, six, it was a little, I don't know the exact time, but it was six months ish, yeah, and it had been over six months at that time and I started and I came to a realization they're not going to give me a transfer. They're going to like they will, literally. I knew people that were in there, had been locked up in there for years, and I just didn't see how you could survive that. I mean, come out of that with your mind intact. Yeah, you know, cause it's just hard.

Speaker 1: 1:09:53

That was so hard and but I was still. I was too afraid to try to live there. I knew that, but I found, uh, one night there was like one of those Bible verses that jumped off at me and it was where Jesus. He was talking to me through the word and he said um, this was in the gospel of John. You didn't choose me, I chose you and I set you aside, apart, and I have a plan for you and you. You, you got to trust me.

Speaker 2: 1:10:30

But the thing that stood out to you was that you didn't choose him, he chose you.

Speaker 1: 1:10:34

Yeah, it was very it was. That was one of the most real things that I've ever gotten clearly to understand. It was, uh, it was real. It was powerful and real. But then what? What made that so powerful for you? It was the way it jumped. It was as if he was speaking it directly to me. It was not, I was reading it in the Bible. It was like this is for you. I'm talking to you, boy. Um, you didn't choose me. I chose you and I set you apart and I have a plan for you. But now you got to trust me, and so I was like well, I trust you, you know. Whatever you know, whatever we need to do, whatever here I am, I trust you. And, um, I think it was the very next day I was praying and I felt like he said you're going to be my man in Birmingham, and I was like Birmingham, you know, because there ain't nothing for me. I want Birmingham.

Speaker 2: 1:11:34

And you had never lived in Birmingham before.

Speaker 1: 1:11:35

No, my dad did. But I only had bad memories at Birmingham because my mom used to like force me to get on a Greyhound bus and ride it for four hours and come up to Birmingham to see him and I didn't, I didn't like anything about it, but it was because of that experience, but that was weird and I was like well, how do you get from lockdown sale to Birmingham? I don't even, I don't know they make, they make any sense.

Speaker 2: 1:12:01

And then you thought you were going to be the man in Birmingham.

Speaker 1: 1:12:04

Well, he said no, he said I'd be his man in Birmingham.

Speaker 2: 1:12:06

Oh, his man in Birmingham.

Speaker 1: 1:12:07

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:12:08

V-man, his man Not.

Speaker 1: 1:12:09

V-man. I mean, but it was clear, I mean it's in my notebook, I mean it's, it's I'm not making it up, but it made no sense to my mind. But I just was like okay, I mean, how are we going to make that happen? But he said I have something for you here and the only way to conquer your fear is to go through, like the only way out is through.

Speaker 2: 1:12:39

All right. So last time, where did we end? We ended that you were going to some Christian dorm your best friends, what was their name?

Speaker 1: 1:12:48

Chris and Glover.

Speaker 2: 1:12:49

Okay, and they had. It was the Cairo's ministry people that had come in and they won out at Christian dorm. Trying to get this Christian dorm and they finally got it going, I guess, and your two friends were super excited and came to you said they were going and you said I'm not going. I'm not going, and then you realize that they were going and they were going. They were basically your only friends or your best friends, and so they tricked me, so you went because of them only because of them.

Speaker 1: 1:13:14

The only reason I went was because they said Chris said I put your name on the list and I said you go ahead, I'm not doing all that. And he was like, well, me and Glover are going. And I was like, well, I guess I'm moving to the Christian dorm. So we were taking that stance was we're trying to create a community for people that want to do something different, and if you don't want to do something different, then you don't need to be here. That makes sense. Yeah, that's great.

Speaker 1: 1:13:46

So immediately we set out, we created the leadership structure, that we created the cardinal rules, and then we started creating different departments. So, everybody, if you work, if you live in the honor dorm, you had to have a job in the honor dorm and if you live in the honor dorm, you had to be pursuing, like, some kind of practical cause. We were not trying to do just like the Jesus, like come in and teach us about, you know the bread and wine and you know all the spiritual things which are important, but we were trying to come at it from a standpoint of mostly, these dudes don't know how to read, they don't know how to get along with people, they don't know how to deal with their criminal thinking and we want to like the whole. We want to deal with everything.

Speaker 2: 1:14:31

Like a well rounded individual, basically.

Speaker 1: 1:14:33

Yeah, and then practical things like how to write a check, how to have a bank account, how to get a job, how to have a job interview.

Speaker 2: 1:14:40

Pause when you say just going back, because I want to understand all these facets. You said everyone was required to have a job. Well, we had.

Speaker 1: 1:14:48

Well, we created departments in the honor dorm.

Speaker 2: 1:14:52

So give me an example of a department and a job.

Speaker 1: 1:14:54

A department would have been like we had a coordinator. Coordinator somebody was always at the coordinator's table. A department somebody was always paying attention to what was going on in the dorm. So we were trying to set up classes. We were trying to set up just like an accountability, because we came up with rules Like if you want to smoke cigarettes, you have to do that in your cell. We didn't say they couldn't smoke cigarettes. You just can't smoke cigarettes out here, where it's going to get on everybody else. And if we're going to have classes, if you're going to be disrespectful or, you know, make noise or doing that, you know you can't do that. Like.

Speaker 1: 1:15:29

We came up with a list of like rules. And I think the first time I got excited, like I really got excited, was some of the free world people started getting excited about what we're doing and we had a I wish I remember who it was but they gave us a library, they donated a library to us, so they came in and put up shelves and stocked it with books and so that was a department. There was library, there was coordinators, there were people walking around like, like the police.

Speaker 2: 1:16:02

But it's crazy to me what you're saying like that they allowed you guys as inmates I mean, I know you're in this honor dorm, like faith dorm but they allowed you guys as inmates to create and implement all this structure.

Speaker 1: 1:16:16

Okay, well, I just since we do the for real, real and we want to say what's really happening. Yeah, you want me to tell you what's really happening. Sure, the Alabama Department of Corrections has a problem with like personnel and you know there's a lot of corruption and also, in a block like that, you would pay three or four officers to work that block 24 hours a day. They found out after our first, like six months. They figured out if they're really policing themselves, we just need to put one CEO up there and that CEO will deal with the leaders. And then so it became like a financial thing, like right, and it was. I mean, they were seeing, you know, we were seeing something. They were seeing dollar signs, right, which makes sense. If we can make this work and we can only put one officer over there, then we can put the other officers in this.

Speaker 1: 1:17:10

You know this violent, you know, but he appointed a new prison commissioner. This new prison commissioner was interested in what we were doing at Donaldson Correctional Facility in Bessemer, alabama, and he was so interested that, like his first couple of months being in that office, he decided he wanted to come see. And he came and he toured and he was blown away. Like blown away because by the time he came it was like the end of 98. It was after we had everything established. We had 96 men living in the honor dorm that wanted to be there, that were doing everything they could to stay there and make a difference. And he saw that and he commanded, like because he's the prison, he's like he can say whatever he wants to charge.

Speaker 1: 1:17:59

He said I want one of these in every institution in the state of Alabama. So then they do remember his name. No, I could look it up. I mean, I could fact check it and look at it. I have a newspaper article on that. Okay, I was just curious. Anyway, he was just he was blown away Like he couldn't believe it, like this can't, this don't happen. You know, because you know he'd been to all the other prisons, like whatever. What was happening right there? It was, it was the normal.

Speaker 2: 1:18:26

He recognized that it was different.

Speaker 1: 1:18:28

Yes, but then here was the here's where it became a problem. He wanted that to go everywhere. So, yeah, this was not a thing that came from the administration. The way we set it up, what we did, this was not a thing that came really from any free will. People we did inmates created this program.

Speaker 2: 1:18:49

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:18:51

But we knew we're inmates, we can't get no credit and we thought it was funny. But the mission statement for the honor dorm I believe it's still to this day and what they use I wrote that that's mine, but I didn't call them mission statement, I called it a vision. This is what we're doing, and they adopted it. And then the structure, like the leadership structure and all the rules and all that stuff, was written by another. Inmates, basic programs, yeah, and I talked about learning about this thing, about writing a vision. Yes, well, the vision that I wrote down was you know what I felt like he told me right down was you're going to be whole and you're not. You're going to basically do all your mess.

Speaker 2: 1:19:41

Right, it wasn't what you wanted to write down.

Speaker 1: 1:19:43

Yeah, I would not have chose that. But by the end of that the end of getting close to the end of 1999, it just occurred to me like going through counseling, dealing with the stuff, doing all the Joyce Meyer stuff, and that was that that vision had come to pass. Like I was a different man than I was when I wrote that down and I would have never saw that coming, so that gave me hope.

Speaker 2: 1:20:10

So how long from the time that you wrote it down to the time you kind of had that realization, how long was that?

Speaker 1: 1:20:16

Probably about eight months. Okay, I mean, that was a hard period and you know we can if you want to listen to the last episode, we can you can like get into the nuts and bolts of that, but it was a hard. You know, going through counseling hard, dealing with issues is hard, yeah, and it was. It was hard to get into counseling but it was so worth it. Like it was like there was so much freedom on the other side and it wasn't freedom from my circumstances because I was still in the same place, but I was free, like, of a lot of the things that had always been my stuff, right, but I'm getting ready, I've got a parole date. It is, uh, you got a parole date. It was exciting and scary Because if you remember me telling you, most people don't make it up the first time, right, and even, like they give you a parole date, you go up, you go to your hearing.

Speaker 1: 1:21:04

You don't make it the first time and then, even if you're going to make it, you make it the second or third time, but then the day of the hearing, that was a very long day because you don't hear, you don't know.

Speaker 1: 1:21:15

It's not like you have a cell phone, you can find out. But there was, you know, the anticipation, the fear, uh, just I want this day to be over with, like I want to know. And then I called Tommy that night. He'd give me a time that he would be home, because in those days if people called for my prison phone, you couldn't call a cell phone, you could only call a landline. I think it's different now, but, uh, just getting on the phone with him that night, my heart's pounding and uh, he uh answered the phone and just busted out in tears and he said you made it, like you made it. I don't know Like they're really going to let me go Like it's crazy, but I mean, at that time it had been six years, nine months, some days, so it was almost seven years, and just everything that I'd been through.

Speaker 1: 1:22:05

It was just such a like a, like a flood, just a relief, like my God dude, you're like this Jesus, things Like I don't get no credit for none Cause I didn't do anything, like I didn't make any of this stuff happen. But then immediately, you know there's 96 men that were in the honor dorm and when I got off the phone and just shouted that, they were all like so, just genuinely happy for me, like it was just like it was crazy. It was a crazy, crazy, crazy day. And on Sunday, september the 12th 1999, sitting at the little prison table in the honor dorm, I finished my last one in my notebook and I was like, wow, I mean, that was a pretty lofty like goal. So this was six days after I finished a thousand hours. On Sunday, september the 12th 1999, I finished like, and this was huge goal, wait, wait, wait, was that before the parole hearing? No, this was, I guess. So the pro hearing would have been on Monday. This would have been that Sunday. Okay. So the next day, monday, september the 13th 1999, they called my name and you know you say, is that a coincidence? Maybe? I mean, nobody got out of there in seven days, nobody. Well, I'd never seen anybody other seven days. But it was that coincidence that I finished what I set out to do on Sunday and then I got out on Monday. Maybe it's a coincidence, but I told you at the beginning of 1999, I wrote in my journal that Jesus said I'm not going to get you out of prison until you let me deal with what got you in here, and it was. He said he would set me free once I dealt with what I needed to deal with. And I did, and now I'm free.

Speaker 1: 1:24:00

So, but he was the one that called my name that morning and called me over to the cube and he had a card that was made by another email, with some praying hands and a cross on it, and he said it said I've got it somewhere I can show you. It said God bless you and keep you, and all of that. There's a song out there now. Yeah, the song the Lord bless you, yeah. And he looked at me through the hole and he said I know what you guys real and I know you ain't coming back and if you do come back it'll be as a volunteer, so happy for you Do your thing. And I just I started crying.

Speaker 1: 1:24:44

But to get that from him Right, and he was the one, he was always the one antagonizing us and antagonizing me and bothering me. But then you would think you would get that like from the, from the chaplain, because you know they're supposed to be like the, the man of God and the prison. So Chaplain Lindsay never liked me and I never liked him either. You know, I always call him a mean old Baptist. I saw, you are just mean old, you know. But the way that all Baptister mean, the way he talked to me that day, he was like walk, walked in, like scan me up and down. He said, yeah, john's boy, you still got that look. But then it was a crazy, you know, like putting on real clothes for the first time in seven years. It just like, and then, well, I didn't even know my size.

Speaker 1: 1:25:34

I didn't even know my size. Like cause we our sizes in in prison was you. It was small, medium, large, extra large, xxl. You know, that was for your pants, that was for your boxers, that was for your little prison shirt. So you put on, so I didn't even know. So there was a little bit of paranoia about trying to figure out. You know, what size pants do I need? What size shirt do I can guess, but a guess on all that. But just like and they were good clothes too, like that world victory church people, they put me in a game.

Speaker 2: 1:26:02

So they like they have clothes. They're waiting for you before you actually walk out.

Speaker 1: 1:26:06

Whoever's picking you up can bring you clothes. Oh okay, If they don't Like, if you're one of those unfortunate and there's a lot of guys that got a prison don't have anybody. If they get out, they don't have anybody. They have like a box of clothes and you just pick something out of them. It's like thrift store stuff. And then they take you to the bus station and drop you off. Just walking out of there in my paper sack, my free world clothes on my paper, I'm ready to go.

Speaker 1: 1:26:34

But then, um uh, tommy Thomas was picking me up because my mom she had heard her back and my aunt, sue, wanted to pick me up, but it was more practical for Tommy to pick me up because he lived in Birmingham and I was going there. So I was going and I had always had this fantasy. You know, when I finally got a prison, I leave, I'm going to kneel down and kiss the ground.

Speaker 2: 1:26:55

And I've seen that on movies and stuff.

Speaker 1: 1:26:57

No, I was going to do that, that was my plan. But that morning, when you know, I walked up to the gate and then they just let me go, and so I get into the car with Tommy, like he asked me, did I want to stop at the end of the road and do that and I was like kiss the ground, yeah, cause I said I wanted to. He didn't want me to. I said I wanted to, but I said, no, let's just, let's just get me out of here.

Speaker 1: 1:27:23

Let's just be done, let's just get me out of here. And um, but it was a blur and you don't really remember. It was kind of like that Cause it was like going from one thing to the next and it's so fast in everything and it's just it's like a change, like almost instantaneous. But I'm free and I'm moving to Birmingham. I'm going to be his man in Birmingham.

Speaker 2: 1:27:46

So you're driving to Birmingham with Tommy Thomas.

Speaker 1: 1:27:50

Crazy day. Well, hey guys, this was, this was fun and, you know, reliving season two. This is the most important part of my story because, as far as I'm concerned, the way I see it, this is where my story began. We love you guys. We'll see you soon. Season four is premiering Tuesday, september 7th. We're also working on revamping the for real, real, narrowing the gap in our Patreon page. Good things coming and unfortunately also ads will be coming in the next season. So we'll see you soon. Thanks for your support. Peace, okay, we'll see you soon.