Episode 89: Multi Story Mentors - Tim Johns on producing passions

Tim Johns (MA Geography, 2007) works with BBC Radio 2 as a Producer on The Jeremy Vine show. He joins Nilufer to talk about all things media, creative industries and the importance of taking a leap of faith. Tim’s work has covered all elements of radio production, and he credits it to his time at Edinburgh’s very own student radio station - FreshAir! 

Tim joins us 18 years after graduation, to share his advice, some jokes and to encourage pursuing your passion. 

“I think the hardest thing is, if you're absolutely committed in your mind and driven towards a very specific thing, and that very specific thing across the course of a number of years is proving impossible to get to. It's totally fine to relax your parameters and look elsewhere. So I just think, take it all with a big dose of big dose of chill. Work hard, but just don't stress about it.” - Tim 

About Multi Story Edinburgh

Multi Story Edinburgh is a student-produced podcast that brings you the stories, experiences and wisdom of University of Edinburgh alumni. We hope they will inspire you, reassure you and remind you that you are part of the global University community that is here to support you as you make your own way in life.

The podcast is run by the Alumni Relations team at the University of Edinburgh. 

All opinions expressed are those of the individual and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Edinburgh.
 
Music
Detective Begining Adventures by KonovalovMusic. Sourced from Tribe of Noise.

Transcript

[Theme Music] 

Tim  00:04 

So that's not really how you think when you've just graduated. Yeah, maybe, maybe. Nor should it be, because no one would do any job. Because, yeah, like, unless you want to be an architect, we work nine to five and get paid quite well and never do shift work. There'll be some architect watching this going, "Hang on a second. I worked very hard on Sundays because of this project. Tim Johns at the Jeremy Vine Show, was it?" 

Nilufer  00:32 

Hello and welcome to Multi Story Edinburgh, the show where we sit down with some of Edinburgh's alumni to talk all things post graduation.   

Nilufer  00:39 

I'm Nilufer Aumeerally, your new host, and this season's theme is Multi Story Mentors, meaning that if you've just graduated and don't know what comes next, don't worry. Our alumni are here to offer advice, share some insights from their careers and reminisce. In this episode, I chat to Tim, a producer on the Jeremy Vine Show, BBC Radio Two. Tim produces the very best of radio - from the serious to the farcical, it's never a dull moment on his show. Tim's work has covered all elements of radio production, and he cites it all to his time at Edinburgh's very own student radio station, Fresh Air. Tim joins me to share his knowledge on all aspects of the creative industries, finding stability and taking a leap of faith.  

Nilufer  01:16 

Tim, it's great to have you. It's very nice to see you. How are you today?  

Tim  01:23 

Yes, very well. Thank you. Middle of the summer holidays, I've got young kids, so just managing work, and my wife's off, and they're at various clubs and all that business as well as work. Yeah. So good. Thank you  

Nilufer  01:35 

Very good. Today, you are our guest on Multi Story Mentors, which does, quite literally, make you a multi story mentor. Don't let it get to your head. Feel free to update the CV. Could you please, just briefly introduce yourself, your name, what you studied and what you do now? 

Tim  01:54 

Yeah, so my name's Tim Johns, and I was at Edinburgh - I don't want to say when it was, it seems too long ago now - but I started in 2003, I did Geography. I started off doing primarily physical geography, and I kind of transitioned across the four years to end up doing human geography. So I've got Geography MA. I spent basically equal to or even more time at university doing Fresh Air the student radio station, and subsequently went off and started off with a traineeship in BBC local radio in England. And then, 13 years ago now, I moved to Radio Two, which is where I still work and have ever since as a producer of the Jeremy Vine Show, which is a, if you don't know, is a kind of weekday, middle of the day news programme on an otherwise music entertainment station. So it's slightly odd in that regard, because it's all very much like, 'oh, we're interviewing Bon Jovi', then it's our programme. We're, like, we're talking to an MP about social welfare. But yes, that's what I do, and I clearly must enjoy it, because I've been there quite a while. 

Nilufer  02:59 

Thank you very much. I wanted to know, do you have anyone, anyone at all, who is a particular mentor to you that you find advises you? 

Tim  03:10 

I'm sure it's not an original answer, and I wish he did literally advise me. But I mean, Louis Theroux is an all time hero of mine, and he's still making documentaries, and they're all very good, but I mean his old stuff was just legendary, not a word I enjoy or use very often. But I mean in terms of, like, doing quirky, interesting investigative journalism, but in a completely unique, unique and personality-based way, he's just, like, at the forefront. 

Nilufer  03:39 

If the legendary shoe fits Louis Theroux would wear it. 

Tim  03:42 

He would wear two. 

Nilufer  03:46 

Yeah, have you taken any advice from either the way he presents or what it is that he does that you find has inspired you through your career? 

Tim  03:53 

That's a good question that I've not ever really thought about. I suppose when you consume other media, you always absorb what they're doing and how they're doing it. And is there anything from that you can take? And I suppose one thing I've taken from him is that if there's an awkward question that needs asking, you just have to kind of persist with it. And that's a fundamental of journalism, which he takes to quite an awkward extreme, because his interviews are not a studio setting. He's like in someone's house or whatever. I think that's what, what makes it, certainly in his older stuff, maybe even more excruciating, because it wasn't the social setup where you'd ask those awkward questions. But yeah. I mean, I think it's a good rule, though, if you're there to ask a certain question about a certain person's story, you need to do that even if they don't really want to answer it. 

Nilufer  04:38 

Yeah. So what advice would you give yourself if you had to now look back at yourself just after graduation, what would you say to yourself? 

Tim  04:51 

Big question. 

Nilufer  04:52 

He'd love that one. 

Tim  04:55 

I think I'd tell myself I wanted to work in the media and specifically for the BBC. And I guess I'd tell myself that, look, the majority of people you know who want to do similar whether it's easy or difficult or whatever, end up doing something. The vast majority that I know who tried to do that ended up doing something that they wanted to do or related, and the majority of the few who didn't, did other interesting things. So I'd say, like, put your all into it, but don't, don't panic. You can have all your eggs in one basket, but there are other baskets available if they fall out, whatever weird metaphor. So I guess just the idea that it's, it's good and important to focus on what you want if you know what that is. And it also doesn't truly matter if you don't. But there are lots of other options that will come along and open themselves up, so don't waste your time worrying about it. 

Nilufer  05:55 

So do you think your student or your just freshly graduated self had quite a clear next, like long term goal, and was sort of, was Tim then maybe less, sort of, up for deviating from a path? Did you have a very clear goal, or were you a bit more chill than that? 

Tim  06:12 

Somewhere in between? And I probably went on a journey of what I thought I wanted to do, like most people. And the truth is, probably when I started my degree, I didn't have the confidence that I could possibly do what I thought I wanted to do. So I uncovered recently, one of those - I don't know if you ever did one - like a career questionnaireth thing that you did at school, recommended I be a farm manager for some reason. 

Nilufer  06:37 

I got zookeeper. 

Tim  06:40 

Wow, we could have done some kind of weird, exotic news collaboration. Anyway, I found at the end it goes 'anything else you want to do?' And I'd written like, 'oh, journalist at the BBC', but I didn't at all have the confidence to think I'll just go and do like, a journalism degree or whatever so. And also, I guess, I wanted to keep my options open, and I wanted to go to Edinburgh, you know, a good university with, with good, well regarded degrees. But my point is, I kind of hedged my bets because I didn't truly have the confidence to do that. So I threw out my degree. I probably thought, I'll try and do this. I'll do radio, because I'm interested in it. And I did more and more and more. And by the end of my degree, I probably did think I would really still like to do that BBC thing. So that is, that is where I applied. I did lots of work experience all over the place, and I'd have taken jobs, you know, at any media company, doing pretty much anything, but I happened to get a BBC traineeship. So I suppose I was lucky to one extent and to the other extent, you make your own luck. Yeah, there's one former boss said to me, like every job you want is like a campaign. Don't think of it as like, 'Well, I'll see an application, I'll apply for the application, and I'll get it'. Sometimes you do that, but especially in a more competitive industry, it may be that you, you know, get in touch. Get to know it. Do experience around that job? Apply for a job. Fail. Apply for another three. And then maybe you get a week somewhere with someone, and then you're next in line, eventually, and whatever. It's not always that simple, but yeah - so I suppose from that point on, I was, I was luckily in in that job. 

Nilufer  08:21 

Well, that's really interesting. So do you think that in that way, your student self is quite similar to you now, in that you sort of had a - well at the beginning - maybe you weren't so set in stone about what you wanted to do, and then maybe when you graduated, you obviously wanted to keep your options open, but it felt a lot more like a tangible idea because of your university experience. Do you think now still, do you feel like you've actualized that in some ways? 

Tim  08:48 

Probably similar in that, I think we're all, most people, are a mix of kind of forward facing confidence and internal imposter syndrome, and the me at university is probably exactly the same. Now, I know full well that I've, I've, you know, I've had a successful career, to this, to date, and I am an expert in quite a niche, specific bit of what I do and certain types of radio production. But at the same time, I kind of look around and I work with lots of incredibly talented people, I think, should I be here? Why did they give me a pass to get in the building? What's going on? So all of that's probably the same. And yeah, I guess life's about finding that balance where you, where you bluster through with enough confidence without seeming like an arrogant idiot, but, but also not letting your insecurities hold you back so you don't try and think you can achieve it. We're all the same, so just kind of knowing that everyone is the same and is thinking that is useful information, and just assume that everyone else who's applying and rocked up for interview in a really smart suit, are also really, really nervous. 

Nilufer  09:55 

So could you paint us a bit more of a picture of your day to day student life? You said you got involved in Fresh Air Radio. Could you speak a bit more about that? What you did in your degree - just what was Tim up to? 

Tim  10:08 

Yeah, well, I will confess I don't know if I should say this on an alumni podcast. I wasn't the hardest worker, and certainly my girlfriend at university, my now wife, mother of my children, Edinburgh success story. Many of them would say I was very annoying, and I didn't do a lot of work, but kind of blustered through. So I really enjoyed my course. I enjoyed geography. I just love the fact that you can dabble in other subjects in the first couple of years. So I did a bit of, bit of archeology and Canadian Studies and philosophy and all politics and all sorts. And then, yeah, I did primarily kind of physical geography to start with, and then switched towards human geography. So everything from volcanoes to a field trip to Iceland, to studying speciesism and whether we're basically, you know, effectively, we discriminate against certain species of animals, which I don't, I didn't know that was part of geography, but I studied that for a while. So really varied, really interesting. I enjoyed that. We all do essays in different ways. Mine was always like, absolutely last minute in the geography computer lab at 3am, hand it in, go to bed, sort of, you know, that was my essay style. And then, yeah, kind of just as much, but probably more time was spent absolutely obsessed with student radio. And yeah, everything from fundraising to, you know, doing the shows, and, you know, running the station. And just all sorts. And it was kind of that my social life was centered around my flatmates, but also student radio. So yeah, just a lot, a lot of time doing that and being obsessed with it and trying to raise money for it and all that. But, um, yes, a lot of happy memories from that. 

Nilufer  12:02 

That's great. And what I'm picking up on is that you wore a lot of hats in the radio, but you also were interested in a lot of different aspects of your degree and all the things you could learn. And those first two years at uni are the most fun because obviously there's less deadlines. It's less all encompassing. And in that time, you're allowed to branch out and do a lot more subjects, which, you know, as you've said, you really enjoyed, but also with the radio, you wore a lot of different hats. Was that sort of variation - figuring out what was best for you and what you enjoyed - was that pretty essential to your time at university and your development here? 

Tim  12:37 

Yeah, I think so. And, you know, doing societies and all the extracurricular stuff that you can at university is so important. I mean, if I think of, you know, the academia was incredibly useful, even though I don't apply geography to my day to day job, almost at all. I apply reading and writing and proofreading and, you know, all that, all that stuff and an academic thought and rigor to some of the stuff I encounter, but almost just as important was a lot of the stuff I did in Fresh Air and it was so interesting. Like everything from, yes, presenting a show and interviewing people, which I literally do as part of my job, but also like trying to get sponsorship money off of random people and phoning up companies and trying to write, like, write contracts, not having a clue what I was doing, but realising that's partly how the world works. And yeah, running events and stuff that I've never really had a chance to do since, but when I had my first job in local radio in Lincoln radio, Lincolnshire, in my spare time, I ran like a kind of day long film festival for short films in a local thing. And I'd have probably never thought to have done that if I hadn't seen at uni that you just phone up a venue, you see when they're free, see how much it costs, price ups and tickets, print some flyers, and then do your best to get bums on seats. And it kind of happens, but, but, you know, we did that all the time for Fresh Air, and it that was great experience. So all of that was invaluable. And kind of proved to me that if you have an idea for a project, you can go and do it, then it can happen. 

Nilufer  14:07 

That's brilliant. Yeah. So reflecting back on your time at Edinburgh, what kind of influence would you say it had on you? In what ways did it help you change and grow, and in what ways were you different at the end of your degree as that you were at the start. 

Tim  14:22 

I suppose people talk about the university experience and the best time of your life and all that. And I think when you're going through it and you're living it, it's, it can seem really fun and good and quite normal and full of stresses and exams and everything else, but looking back, all of that probably is true. I mean, it is an incredible and expensive but privileged to have that time to socialise and study, and it feels busy when you're doing it, but actually there's plenty of time in the day to form, like really deep friendships and learn more about yourself and gain loads of experiences. So, I think just the way it rounds you and lets you grow, you know. Most people leave home, far fewer now because of the cost of doing at all, but, but I did leave home and just, you know, living independently and being independent by the end of it all was very much a thing. And I just think I, yeah, I just grew a lot as a person and felt more confident, I suppose, by the end of it, and ready to pursue a job. And indeed, by the end of it, I had done lots of work experience and that sort of thing. So I was very much like, 'I'm ready now, I'm going again, trying to find a job somewhere'. 

Nilufer  15:36 

And it's also such a great middle ground, because you get to be an adult, but not really, like it's you're an adult, but you've got, like, this sort of parameter of, everyone knows you're in the university space. Everyone you know, when I if I go out, when I'm an adult, people know I'm a student. There's just, there's just an air to us. There's something deeper than us. And then eventually it's like a good little middle ground, sort of developing and figuring out what kind of person you want to be before you have to actually be said person. And it's great. It's like the little loading part of a game where you get to choose your character. And, you know, do all those fun thing before you actually start playing.  

Tim  16:15 

So although I will say I've got a four and a five year old now, and even now, I'm like, 'oh, what?' When am I going to feel like an adult? Because it still hasn't happened, so don't wait too long, because that game, I don't know if it ever starts, so you just have to pretend that you're an adult. 

Nilufer  16:50 

You've worked in the world of media since post graduation, pretty much immediately. Could you explain the journey you went on or in some more detail? Or if that isn't quite the case. 

Tim  17:02 

Yeah, so, media, radio, TV, it's a relatively competitive sector, and the kind of downsides of it are shortage of any kind of stable work. There's a lot of freelancing involved for a lot of people. Yeah, just proper contracts, shift work, all that sort of thing. So those, those are the challenges I face. And I would say that my journey, I've been on the more fortunate side in terms of stability, because I fairly quickly got a traineeship which was paid, very low paid, but paid, you know, a salaried, contracted job with the BBC for a set number of months, so that, you know, that was a really good start for me. But even once you're in, you know, typically, it's still a bit of a faff for quite a while for most people in that, certainly in the case of the BBC, it was like, okay, I got that, and then I got another one, which is, like, 12 months, and then another one for a few months, and then, so you're often, like, repeatedly reapplying and re-interviewing for, often the same job you might already have. And then I did get a contract. So I got a contract as a broadcast assistant. And once you've done that, if you want to move on, you can get - in the BBC - you can go on attachments, so you can apply for other contracts and go off, but retain the other job you had. So there was a lot of that, and then the job I really wanted was the job that I now have, which I feel very privileged to be able to say, and I mean literally, I applied for so many jobs all over the BBC thinking, 'oh, what's my next step?' I love what I was doing, but I was, you know, at that stage, quite ambitious. I thought, I just want to move on, maybe to national radio, whatever. So I applied to a ridiculous number of jobs and didn't get anywhere. Often applying way above my experience level, and to the point where I've been in a long distance relationship for ages. And then we were finally gonna be, finally gonna bring our lives together, move in together, and get married and all this business. And I said to my wife, great. Well, I'll stop applying for jobs for like a year while you do this teacher training degree, unless one on the Jeremy Vine show at Radio Two comes up. And amazingly and bizarrely, it did, and I got it, so I then went straight up to London. So it's kind of and even then, I think I had to go through three rounds across three years of applying for the same job until I finally got a permanent contract. So I don't miss doing all that but I'm very lucky now that I have I work weekday, day times. I don't have to do any overnights. I don't work weekends. So it's come good for me. 

Nilufer  19:45 

That's really great. What you mentioned there was the beginning of your career. There was a lot of short term jobs or a lot of applying, and not being sure what opportunities would come up or what would happen next in that period. Did you feel a sense of instability, or was it more - did you enjoy the flexibility that came with that work? 

Tim  20:07 

I think a sense of instability, although I also had relative stability throughout. So I was lucky that I never had a period where I reapplied for my own job and didn't get it, for example, and then was just out of work for a few months, or whatever. I mean, I work with and know a lot of people who freelance fully, so they do a few shifts here, they do a few shifts with us. They do a few shifts somewhere else. And I think that's a really common way in and almost a trickier thing to do because you're trying. It's hard to ever say no to a shift because you don't want to do that, and obviously you're literally turning down - you don't get holiday pay. So it's financially tricky, and you have to balance where you work and how much and try not to burn out and but you also don't want any quiet periods. So that's I feel for, and I'm endlessly impressed by people who really successfully make freelance life work, and often freelancing, once you do it in certain companies for a few months, you're often entitled to apply for internal jobs and stuff. So often it's a means to an end. Yeah, getting contracts, but yes, it it can be unstable. It can feel that way, but I don't think that's something to fear. I mean, it's very hard to find a job where, you know people, people go down routes, like, I want to be a nurse or whatever, and they don't necessarily think about, oh, hang on, that's going to mean overnight shift work, rotas, weekends. What's that going to be like in 15 years when I have kids? Like, that's not really how you think when you've just graduated, yeah, maybe. Nor should it be, because no one would do any job. Because, yeah, unless you want to be, I don't know an architect where you work nine to five and get paid quite well and never do shift work. There'll be some architect watching this going, hang on a second. I work very hard on Sundays because of this project. Tim Johns the Jeremy Vine Show, was it? But you take my point, it's easy to talk about the negatives, but I don't think that should really put anyone off any career, because most jobs have that issue. 

Nilufer  22:16 

Yeah. Well, yeah. I think that's a really good insight, because I think there's a sort of, I don't know if stigma is the word, because I think there is a truth to it, in the sense that creative industries are more than ever feeling quite inaccessible to new graduates, or they're not really sure where to start. I think especially in this age where there's so much information, you sort of don't know where to begin. But I think you've made a really good point of saying that, unfortunately, the same is true at most places, and it's always doable. Yeah, I think it's important that people know that there's, you know, as much as the creative industry in particular feels quite inaccessible - people are working in it, so clearly they must have got in somehow. 

Tim  22:56 

Yeah, and they're not all geniuses - they're just, they just spun the roulette wheel and ended up doing something. And also it comes back to the idea of you've got to know what you want to do and go for it. And the idea that I've always thought, how can you truly know what you want to do if you haven't done it yet? Yeah, because you might say you want to do radio. I mean, you know, there's 10,000 different jobs in radio. Some of them might be terrible. Some of them might be brilliant. Yeah, I know people who do things the BBC that I look at, and I hear about I think, oh, that sounds awful. And I hear about others that sound great. So it's all you can do is take a best guess, try and get something related to it, and see if you like it, and take it from there. I think it's a bit of a fallacy to be like, I always knew I wanted to be a dot, dot, dot, because my parents were. 

Nilufer  23:46 

So is that the advice you'd give about sort of finding the right path? Would you say there's maybe no such thing until you're there in terms of the right path? Is it sort of finding it as you go? 

Tim  23:58 

Maybe I'm just not very romantic about it. But yes, I, I'm a firm believer that anyone who says they absolutely, definitely know, can't know because they haven't done it yet. So I just think you have to land where you land. And if you're completely unsure, you don't need to be scared about it, especially if your flatmate says, I definitely want to do this and you're kind of jealous of that and how they know. If you think you know brilliant, and if you have no idea at all, well, you will at some point have to whittle it down and apply for some stuff. But, you know, I've got a family member at the minute who graduated recently. She applied for some stuff, got a really good graduate job and all that. But actually, she just wasn't the right fit at all, and that's it, she's quick, she's going to probably go off and pursue something completely different. And that's fine. That's great. I mean, how would she have known until she did the job? So I think that's all just part and parcel of it. If you don't know, don't worry about it   

Nilufer  24:54 

Exactly, and then in that way, no experience is wasted, because you learned something, even if you learned that it's not for you. Yeah, one path you can sort of shut the door on and go right, and what next then? And I think that's really important. 

Tim  25:07 

And I don't want to sound like, if you don't know, don't worry, it'll just happen to you. I think you have to, you can't just have a sleep and hope you'll wake up in a job. You do have to commit somewhat to try and get a job. So at some point, if you are wracked with indecision, you do need to sit down and think, 'well, what sectors shall I at least look at and try for?' You do have to apply yourself to try and get something. I just mean, that something isn't what you expected, that's fine. 

Nilufer  25:38 

But then, in the same way, I think that seems really daunting to people, but it's in the same way you have to choose a degree when you're 17, and then when you're 21 you don't often want to do what you wanted to do when you were 17. And do you think there was much evidence in your past, before uni, or maybe during uni, that you wanted to get into radio? 

Tim  26:00 

Yeah, that's a good question. No, it's not in my family, I wasn't a radio nerd in the sense that I had a little radio set in my bedroom and wrote down frequencies. I wasn't in that sense, I guess I was a bit a performer - there's some recordings from my Early Learning Centre little recording tape where I was singing radio jingles and pretending to do a little tape when I was, I don't know, six or something, there's like, 'now the news and a man was hit by a cow', stuff like that. And in my school, there was three old camcorders - you could join camcorder club. And we tried to make little bad, unfunny sitcom sketches, so all that kind of stuff always, just really appealed to me, and I knew on day one at university, I went and joined the student radio station. I knew I wanted to do that, but no, I don't know why. 

Nilufer  26:52 

How long would you say it took for you to feel a sense of and not just stability, but like a real fulfillment in your career? Was it when you felt more permanent in your job, or was it just when you started doing what you love, did you start to feel sense of real satisfaction? 

Tim  27:07 

I'd say I really enjoyed it throughout and I did lots of different things, especially local radio, which was mega fulfilling. And there are probably a few points along my career where I felt real, like rabbit in headlights, moments, but also real contentment moments. So a rabbit in headlights moment was when an editor, a manager, was like, 'oh, I think you could be good enough to go and try and produce the breakfast show at Radio Humberside'. It was a big step up and a big, big show in that world to go and do. And I was still quite young and inexperienced. So that was quite a moment. And I think that all went alright. And then later, a bit later on local radio, I had a real nice setup where I was the station sound producer, so I made the jingles and the little adverts, all that sort of stuff at the same time as doing BBC introducing - so rigging band sessions and live recordings and presenting that every week, and I just had this nice mix and managed my own time. That was really nice. And then the next rabbit in headlights moment was moving to Radio Two and learning all that. And then, yeah, probably, you know, maybe four or five years later, a real sense of fulfillment and contentment that I had the stable job. My boss was very full of praise for what I did. I felt fully involved in every sense of the output, and felt like I was really contributing and having a good time, and I felt like I'd mastered a lot of it. So, yeah. I mean, I think any career like that ebbs and flows, and you have good moments and bad and difficult, but I'd say it's been for me a very fulfilling career thus far that I've enjoyed pretty much with every twist. 

Nilufer  28:47 

Great. That's the dream, really. What is it that motivates you to use creativity - at the end of the day, radio and media, it's about creating connection, isn't it like between all listeners with the content itself? What is it that motivates you to do that? 

Tim  29:03 

When you have a creative idea, and then you you get to put it on an outlet - and even better, if it's like quite a massive outlet - it's just so satisfying when it goes well, and everyone... you have a thought, and you can hear it, and then you actually make it happen out loud, yeah, it was really good. That was, you know - you get the good feedback from it. It's just very satisfying, and it's much more deeply satisfying as well, if it's, if it's truly kind of public service, or if it's investigating a proper social issue, or, you know, if it's fulfilling what the BBC is supposed and what our show is supposed to do, which is to bring you know, understanding and analysis of big news topics to a mainstream audience. If you can do that successfully and well with creativity, that's kind of the most satisfying. And I suppose also sometimes we do less serious, slightly daft tongue in cheek items, and that's only satisfying for me when I do it alongside the serious stuff. So I love the mix. Like in the last few weeks I've done, I've written very serious political briefing interviews for the Prime Minister, the Education Secretary and others, and then, like, a couple of days ago, I suggested, pitched and produced an item, which was, 'II it annoying if your name is Al in the era of AI, because they look the same when they're written down?' 

Nilufer  30:24 

You'd think, yes, 

Tim  30:26 

I booked a couple of blokes called Al, and we voiced up like loads of headlines like, and we voiced them up as if you're reading it as Al - 'Are you interested in having Al as a lover?' 'Will Al ruin society?' Is Al coming to take your job?' And it might sound completely stupid, but it kind of worked, and it was weird and funny, and I haven't heard that reported anywhere else. So that combination of the farcical with the very serious is what does it for me. 

Nilufer  30:56 

That's brilliant. And so do you think that sort of sense of satisfaction at being able to not just create, express yourself creatively, but to have an audience to it, or to have it create some further connection - has that been a drive for you throughout the rest of your life as well? Say, is it like when you get an answer right in maths and someone just ticks it, and you go, 10 out of 10 in like a green pen, and you go, 'Yes!' 

Tim  31:23 

I might just use the segueway - endlessly looking for validation. 

Nilufer  31:28 

You can reword it if you like. 

Tim  31:30 

No, no, no, that's a good question. And I think my answer is kind of, aren't we all to an extent? I yeah, I guess the appeal of doing something and having an audience for it is the same appeal you might get, if you like performing on stage and having the audience feedback, yeah. But equally, if you make a really good in-house project for the local council in which you work, and it's a value to even a small number of people, that's a satisfying thing. And so I suppose getting the validation is what everyone wants. You want to do a good job. You want to have a good result. And that probably means someone else saying, oh, that's useful. Thank you. 

Nilufer  32:05 

I also think in terms of the what you're saying there about the value in creating work that, or, creating work that has positive value and a good impact, I think that's really at the crux of most creative industries, is just to benefit, to see the benefit to others. And if it doesn't really, it doesn't even necessarily have to be, I mean, obviously everyone enjoys their own ideas, like coming to fruition, but just in, you know, the work you've done with Fresh Air and just getting the sponsorship and stuff like that to enable other people to be creative and have a platform to accrues that benefit. It's all about sort of facilitating that connection. I think that's really important too, and I think there's always going to be space for that sort of work, because it's so essential to connection and people. So would you say there was a similar drive for you there through university as well? In just, sort of, wanting to facilitate that for people, and wanting to actualise these ideas and through creative means, or through more admin-y, sort of, sponsorship, that, sort of, side of things, as long as it enabled some connection. 

Tim  33:09 

I think so it's hard, it's hard to say. I probably wasn't that self analytical when I was at university, but maybe I was, maybe I was more obsessed. Maybe that's the better word in I just really wanted the x to be a success, so I did y, be it looking for sponsorship or helping with this or helping with that, or whatever. And I hopefully wasn't too overbearing. I think you just  - a lot of it, you just have to kind of get out there and do it. No, I don't think I was too overbearing. We had a great team. And every, you know, all the different heads of whatever, be it events, did their own thing, and everyone helped out. But yeah, it's incredibly satisfying to, like, I managed to get, like, a major bank to give us some number of 1000s of pounds to sponsor our Freshers Week flyers one year. And to this day, I'm like, I hope they don't watch this podcast, because I don't know if that was money well spent, but it was incredibly satisfying from our end. 

Nilufer  34:04 

What would you say then to new graduates who you've pursued your passion? You've used these skills throughout stuff that you developed at university, passions, your obsessions, as you say, that you've developed at university. Was there a key takeaway when it comes to pursuing a career that doesn't necessarily have like a quote, unquote rule book? 

Tim  34:24 

I think even careers and career paths do have a rule book, you have to take any, any rule book with a pinch of salt. So even if you take a traditional vocational kind of job where it's like, I will do this training for two years, then I'll be qualified as x, and then I'll work, say, in medicine. I work in hospital for this long, even that's going to have lots of things you didn't expect in terms of the people you work with, or the teams you're in, or, or, oh, I have to be shifted to this place of work now, or lots of quirks. So, so I think any line of work has a lot of the unexpected, and I think the best you can do is, to use a well quoted phrase, don't sweat the small stuff, like just, you just kind of have to take it as it comes. And all you can do is try your best and focus on the thing ahead of you without being obsessed. And just don't worry if it doesn't work out, or you have to change tack or change career or whatever. I mean, it's easy to say, you know, sitting in a job I enjoy that has worked out. Oh, don't worry about it if it all goes wrong. But I suppose, yeah, it's, I think the hardest thing is, if you're absolutely committed in your mind and driven towards a very specific thing, and that very specific thing across the course of a number of years is proving impossible to get to. It's totally fine to relax your parameters and look elsewhere. So I just think, take it all with a big dose of big dose of chill. Work hard, but just don't stress about it. If things change, yeah, when you're chasing your career, your dreams.  

Nilufer  36:06 

It's hard to have control over any sort of path, really, you can only control what you do and everything else that happens just sort of happens to you and not at you.  

Tim  36:15 

And I've got kids, and I'm like, as they grow up, I'm like, I struggle already with what I'm going to say to them, in terms of chase your dreams. You can be anything you want to be, because I don't want to sound like a real horrible cynic, but I don't think you can be whatever you want to be  - if you want to be, if you want to be one of the future next Beatles in a band that big, it's like, well, yes, you can try, but statistically, you will probably fail, and that's not a reason not to try, but you just have to be a little bit self aware. I don't want to crush your confidence, but equally, I don't want you to spend years of your life with no money because you want to be a rock star. Yeah, when there's lots of other things you could do in life that might really satisfy you. So it's very hard, the whole kind of, like, enabling culture of 'you can do anything' - it's like, yes, but just- 

Nilufer  37:06 

Cautious optimism. 

Tim  37:07 

Yeah, cautious optimism. Don't, don't let the thought that maybe you can't do anything crush you. And that doesn't mean you have to sit around thinking, oh, maybe I'm not good enough to do those things. It's just kind of, it's a numbers game, yeah, to some extent. So it's just being aware that if you go for something harder, it might take longer. 

Nilufer  37:26 

This sort of works well into my next question, which is, for a lot of new graduates, the majority of the experience they have which to base their next decisions on, etc, and the careers they go into is the degree they've done and any sort of voluntary work that's maybe, sort of shown them, given them some insight into what they want to do. Is there any way that you found you mentioned earlier that there's some ways that the skills you picked up, even though it's not directly geography, there's still some skills you picked up at university, but are quite interdisciplinary, and they help you day to day in your career? Is there anything that you'd say to people that are worried about them, sort of veering off this path that's sort of non specific, to do something and worrying about leaving that skillset behind? 

Tim  38:11 

Yeah, I think there's value in almost any degree, even if you walk out, change path entirely and then forget everything you learned. But if you're at all unsure, the skills you learn from, you know, self study, from having to read all that, from having to kind of learn how academia is written, and reference and source, and the discipline to write essays on your own, all of that are completely transferable skills, and the fact that you might do extracurricular stuff at the same time, and whilst learning to live independently and all of that, I just think, is even if you then move on and you know, you become a clown, let's say, run off, join the circus, you still have that experience and those transferable skills. So no one should ever think, oh, I don't want to be a clown, because that'd be a waste of my degree experience. If you want to be a clown, go for it.  

Nilufer  39:03 

Okay. So I think my final, sort of, big question about those who want to enter creative fields that they do feel increasingly inaccessible - if you had to sum up sour discussion and your reflections on your own career, what is one thing that you think is important that they know? 

Tim  39:20 

Having spent quite a long time saying it'll be fine, relax about it, I'd say, if you want to work in the creative industries, okay, it is competitive - so I'd say you need to know what you don't know, and you probably want to try and put yourself above the competition where you can. And so one thing I always say to radio people looking for advice is just you need a kind of 'do it yourself' mentality. So just better your skills in your own time. And if you want to go into that sort of industry, you'd hope you enjoy it. So it shouldn't be a chore to be working on yourself in your own time. So if you want to be a graphic designer, who can you design some magazines covers or logos for for free? If you want to work in radio, podcasting is all the rage. And, you know, even like massive commercial internal companies want their own private podcast. So that's a brilliant skill to have and and if you haven't got an obvious paid gig there, just make a podcast with a friend. Doesn't matter if only two people listen to it, you'll still be devising it, planning it, learning what platforms to put it on, understanding how all the metadata links work. You'll get used to editing. You have to have a project, you can't just, like, learn editing. You need a thing to drive you on a weekly basis,  to edit. So you kind of have to make your own projects and learn new skills as you do it. I think just to stay like a step ahead, ideally, of the competition, or at least in line, and especially when you're starting out, you do want to be ahead of the curve a bit on what are the big trends. And the you know, big trend now is podcasting. But also, do you know how Tiktok works? Do you know - are you up on all of that? Yeah. And if not just, just join it and do it and post on it and you learn it.  

Nilufer  41:07 

And yeah, in that case is, as we're saying with, you know, any jobs you might undertake that maybe aren't exactly what you want to do, you don't know what you want to do. But there's no in the same way, there's no wasted experience. And education and learning is an experience, and that's not wasted either, even if you're like, just spending a few hours a night picking up some skills, sort of reading around stuff like research about things you enjoy, that help you absolutely get that edge, but also just feel a bit more confident in yourself. We've spoke about imposter syndrome a bit. I think it helps, not only, like, fortify your skills, but also going into these industries, you've just got a bit more to show for yourself, and it's an experience that won't ever be wasted, even if you get all the kit to do podcasting, you start it, and then maybe you decide you want to be a banker. Bankers need to speak. So there's always a transferable element, or interdisciplinary element, to any education or any extra skill you can pick up, I think, which I think is really not even just to creative industries. I think that sort of applies to most people. You don't want to stop learning. You want to always be able to, as you say, know what you don't know?  

Tim  42:18 

Yeah, definitely. And also, if you do move into banking, 70 pounds you spent on USB microphone will soon seem like small fry.  

Nilufer  42:26 

How very cyclical. 

Tim  42:28 

There's just a brief thought as well - kind of pertinent to some of what we've talked about - but one of my colleagues, he career changes at like, the age of the mid 30s, maybe into what I do from teaching. So, you know, in terms of putting your eggs in one basket and then the basket entirely, completely changing. You know, you're not committing for your whole life to something. And he was really successful. And he was, I think, you know, he probably could have been a head teacher if he wanted to. He's that kind of driven guy, but he, quit, did a journalism post grad, came in on work experience, and just he had other life experience, which went a long way, and a good head on his shoulders, a lot of common sense, which is also the key thing for basically any job in the world. And he career changed to be a, you know, a radio producer, radio too. So you know, you're not signing your life away to whatever you fall into to start with. 

Nilufer  43:27 

Yeah, and if they try and make you, that's also probably - you should probably run. 

[Theme music] 

Nilufer  43:41 

Lastly, we devised a quick fire quiz for our guests to have them share some hot seat opinions and choose a favourite Edinburgh sight to see. Let's see what they had to say.  

Tim  43:55 

I'm ready.  

Nilufer  43:56 

OK, ready? Ok, Arthur's Seat or Calton Hill.   

Tim  43:59 

Oh. Arthur's Seat.  

Nilufer  44:00 

Edinburgh Castle or Hollywood Palace  

Tim  44:05 

Castle.   

Nilufer  44:06 

Greyfriars, Bobby or Scott Monument.  

Tim  44:08 

Oh, Scott Monument. As soon as you said, Greyfriars Bobby, that was ruled out. We just used to get so annoyed at all tourists in the way. "Stop touching his nose. Get out the way".  

Nilufer  44:17 

Do you remember when I said there wasn't a wrong answer? Well, Princes Street or Royal Mile,  

Tim  44:28 

Royal  

Nilufer  44:29 

Okay, so Arthur's Seat or Edinburgh Castle. 

Tim  44:34 

Arthur's Seat  

Nilufer  44:36 

Scott Monument or Royal Mile.  

Tim  44:37 

Oh I see what's happening here? Royal Mile.  

Nilufer  44:40 

Okay, so the Seat, or the Mile  

Tim  44:45 

The Seat.  

Nilufer  44:45 

And do you know that has been everyone's final answer? Arthur Seat,  

Tim  44:49 

Really?  

Nilufer  44:50 

Yeah, it's really strange. I don't care for it that much. Has really boggled me.  

Tim  44:55 

I think if you go up on like a busy Saturday and the weather's not great, it's just like, well, this is a bit annoying, but I went on my open day to Edinburgh University. I had like, two hours to kill before my flight back, and I walked up there in like, you know, slightly oversized suits and smart shoes, but it's just amazing, like a mountain in the middle of the city.  

Nilufer  45:13 

It is great hill.  

Tim  45:14 

And also my first year flat mate downstairs, who became my girlfriend, my wife, the mother to my kids, when we were just insisting to our friends, no, we're just, we're just friends, we're just friends. No, nothing's going on. We're like, should we stay up until the sunrise and walk up Arthur's Seat to see it?  

Nilufer  45:32 

Pure platonic activity. 

Tim  45:35 

Exactly - just friends watching the sunset, sunrise - sorry - we stayed up all night and went up for sunrise.  

Nilufer  45:41 

Best cafe, restaurant or pub in Edinburgh? 

Tim  45:45 

Oh, you can't lump in three. See, here's, I mean, I can't answer that.  

Nilufer  45:48 

You can give me one of each. You can give me one of each cafe, restaurant or pub. 

Tim  45:52 

Okay, restaurant, I never felt rich enough to eat out any of them. So I can give you a cafe because I just loved a Snacks breakfast. 

Nilufer  46:01 

Yeah, no, they absolutely are. 

Tim  46:03 

Snacks - is still -and I had one not long ago. Great breakfast, and they were so cheap. Ah - pub. Aw, so many to choose from, but we used to like the Dagda quiz.  

Nilufer  46:14 

Oh, yeah. 

Tim  46:15 

So I'd go for the Dagda, 

Nilufer  46:17 

Perfect. If you could sum up your Edinburgh experience in three words? 

Tim  46:25 

Unbeatable, sleep deprived, creative 

Nilufer  46:32 

Very good. Okay, thank you. That's all my fun and serious questions done. 

Tim  46:39 

Excellent Wow. Thank you very much. I hope that wasn't too rambley at all. 

Nilufer  46:42 

It was brilliant. 

[Theme music] 

Nilufer  46:51 

So there you have it, folks, our conversation today with Tim revealed to us that sometimes cautious optimism is the best way to find the right path. If you feel passionate about something you should pursue it, and yet he's done nothing to stop the angry architects in our inbox. I hope today's episode has shed some light on your post graduation fears and offered some advice as to the different paths life can take, expected and unexpected, but most importantly, never wrong. Thank you for tuning into this episode. To hear from our other alumni, just search Multi Story Edinburgh, wherever you get your podcasts. We'll see you on the next one! 

[Theme music] 

Transcribed by https://otter.ai