Texas Wine and True Crime
We review Texas wines and discuss Texas true crime.
Texas Wine and True Crime
Living in Fear: The Golden State Killer Case
When the Golden State Killer terrorized California communities for over a decade, residents lived in constant fear, keeping windows closed despite sweltering heat and forming neighborhood watch groups to protect themselves. Monica and Neil from the Wine Camp Podcast join us to share their personal experiences living through this terrifying period of California history.
This special collaboration episode explores the evolution of Joseph James DeAngelo's crimes, beginning as the Visalia Ransacker and escalating to sexual assaults and murders across multiple California jurisdictions. We discuss how his law enforcement background helped him evade capture for over 40 years, and how the geography of California—with its rivers, highways, and jurisdictional boundaries—complicated efforts to connect these crimes.
The conversation takes a deeply personal turn as Neil reveals that the killer ultimately lived just half a mile from her home, and Monica shares her discovery that victims lived mere doors from her current residence. We explore the breakthrough role of genetic genealogy in finally catching DeAngelo in 2018, and the critical contributions of true crime writer Michelle McNamara in revitalizing interest in the case.
Most chillingly, we examine how DeAngelo lived as an ordinary family man while committing these horrific crimes, hiding in plain sight for decades before justice finally caught up with him. The plea deal that allowed even victims beyond the statute of limitations to deliver impact statements provides a powerful concluding note to this decades-long nightmare.
Whether you're fascinated by cold case investigations, the psychological aspects of serial predators, or the innovations in forensic science that finally brought this case to closure, this episode offers unique insights into one of America's most notorious criminal cases from those who lived through it. Subscribe now for more true crime discussions paired with fantastic wine recommendations from Texas and beyond.
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www.texaswineandtruecrime.com
Welcome all of you wine and true crime lovers. I'm Brandi.
Speaker 2:And I'm Chris.
Speaker 1:And this is Texas Wine and True Crime. Thank you for being here, friends, for this week's episode. The Golden State Killer, hey Chris, hey Brandi. Today we have guests joining us for a little collaboration episode, if you will.
Speaker 2:We absolutely do.
Speaker 1:We have Monica and Neil from the Wine Camp Podcast. Ladies, ladies, welcome to Texas Wine and True Crime. I am so happy to have both of you here and to be talking about the Golden State Killer which, when we all started talking about doing this case, I told you wow, this is a monster of a case. There's so many monster of a case. There's so many well, not just victims, but just areas and years, and there's just really so much to this one man, and so I'm just so excited to have you both here to talk about this. So, Monica and Neil, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:Welcome guys.
Speaker 3:Thank you, thank you. We're very happy to be here. This is our first time doing a collaboration with anyone and you were our first thought, so thank you for accepting and welcoming us.
Speaker 2:Excellent. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Well, that makes us feel very nice and thanks for choosing us to collaborate with and I'm excited. Well, one let's talk about your podcast. You're not just here to talk about this case. You actually have a podcast, so tell us more about it.
Speaker 4:Right, we're a wine, we do wine camp podcast and we're very wine adjacent, so it's not just about the wine. We don't know anything about making wine. It is about the stories behind the wine, the people that make the wine, serve the wine, our own shenanigans and experiences with wine and that's just pretty much it. It's just very adjacent and we just happen to like wine, so that's our gig.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we've met some interesting people along the way, but we don't know how they make wine, and we don't care how they make wine. We don't want to know how they make wine. There's 142 podcasts out there that talk about making wine, so so what are you okay?
Speaker 1:So when you drink your wine cause we're both drinking wine tonight tell us what are you sipping on, what do you normally sip on and why did you choose to do a wine podcast or actually have wine in your podcast?
Speaker 3:Well, we started this idea. Neil and I retired a couple years ago, and I think it was late one night I was sitting on my couch at my house having a glass of wine. She was doing the same at her house and she texted me with this idea of wine camp, something we could do together when we retired. So we have spent a lot of time. We visited a lot of wineries let's just say that, mostly in California, but a little bit abroad too and we sort of conceptualized something entirely different and then finally settled on a podcast, and so that's kind of how we started this but it's been a lot of fun.
Speaker 4:We feel that nobody has a bad experience wine tasting or sitting around visiting with friends drinking a glass of wine. It's always a good experience and that's kind of what we want to do. So it's called Wine Camp because we think about the times that we sat around a campfire, the times we've known each other for almost 40 years, that we've sat around campfires drinking wine, telling stories and our shared experience and that's what this is kind of like. So it's essentially it's a wine campfire.
Speaker 2:We're just chatting and sharing information and visiting with only california stories no do you guys only drink california wine because you mentioned going abroad.
Speaker 4:No, we drink, we do. We we've had some really good croatian wines and italian wines and uh, we've had I don't know. It's just we like what we like, so we're're not stuck to a region, if you will.
Speaker 3:Right, and we mostly do our interviews on site, so that's why most of our episodes where we are featuring a winery have been California wines.
Speaker 2:Understood. That's so cool. That's where we are Well.
Speaker 1:Thank you again. Nothing like a good crime story. Now who doesn't like a little true crime and why? That's right, exactly Well. And you know it's funny because a lot of people you know they always said like why true crime and why wine? And it's exactly what you said. It's two people having a conversation, telling a story, sharing. You know, wine kind of brings people together, sometimes in joyous occasions and sometimes not. So it's great what you're doing. We need more wine podcasts out there. We need more of in really any region. I know we predominantly do Texas wine, but we love I'm like a big old world wine, so I like the Spanish big old world wine, so I like the Spanish old world stuff. So that's just so cool. You're bringing your knowledge and your travels and everything else to the Wine Camp podcast. So okay, ladies.
Speaker 1:Well, we are here today to talk about the Golden State Killer. Now I was taking well, you and I and I'm sorry us we were all talking about this case, your area you mentioned you're both in California. You're about to share with the audience, our listeners, your listeners, really about just this case in general, but not only that what the area was like, how people were thinking what they were feeling, how things were evolving, how the case was evolving? Were they getting closer to a suspect? But gosh, we're talking about so many years, monica and Neil.
Speaker 1:So all of this, and, by the way, this person, he ends up going in different areas of California. And I don't know about you, but I feel like when you have someone who is committing crimes across county lines, across in different cities and different areas, it becomes very difficult to track them down. And you had murders, you had sexual assaults, sometimes one crime wasn't the same. Even harder to then narrow someone in particular down. So did this start in like the early 1970, 73, 74 timeline? Right Is when the perpetrator began committing crimes, right right, and he started.
Speaker 3:If you think about this, he started. It's classic escalation because he started burglarizing in the Central Valley early on and that was the time that later discovered he was working for the city of Exeter and he was burglarizing homes in the city of Visalia, which is a neighboring town, and got the nickname the Visalia Ransacker, because apparently he would just ransack homes when he burglared them. But then he escalated. Of course, he later left Exeter, moved to the town of Auburn, which is about a half hour up into the hills from the Sacramento area. Right, he started working in Auburn, right. Right, started working, working in Auburn. Yeah, I don't know where he actually lived at the time, but you're right, he was working in Auburn as a police officer. Yeah, I don't know where he actually lived at the time, but you're right, he was working in Auburn as a police officer.
Speaker 4:And that's when the sexual assault started in the Sacramento area, to be known as the East Area Rapist, and to just give an idea of what this area was like back in the early mid-70s it's quite broad right now. All the communities are attached. It's quite broad right now. All the communities are attached. But what we have here is we have community borders essentially set up by rivers and freeways. So we have Sacramento River, the American River, we have Interstate 80, 50, 99. And so the area is very segregated along those lines right. So you have a community pocket.
Speaker 4:So when there were attacks in the Sacramento area it wasn't just like it was, just the person was just moving from easily from one neighborhood to the other. There were rivers and freeways and all that that were crossed. It was quite a span of area and it was all very agricultural. There were lots of tomato fields, strawberry fields, ranches, that type of thing. So it wasn't just an easy just down the street and around the corner thing. So whoever this was, it was very hard. It crossed legal jurisdictions, so it was hard for those law enforcement agencies to communicate.
Speaker 1:Well, and we also can't forget, he is and will be once he's arrested and they find out who he is.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Right, yeah, and we'll get into this a little bit more. But the detectives working the case back in the day some of them did think that, you know, they did think he had. Maybe he had a law enforcement background or a military background Right, we have a lot of.
Speaker 4:At that time we had several military bases located in Sacramento, and so they thought it could be a military person.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so yeah, now, neil lived here during the time I did it, but she has a better uh understanding of what the community was going through at the time so where are all these places really, was it?
Speaker 1:you said ranches and different things in the area, so were things just spread out? Was he able to when he became, when he was the ransacker, for instance, and he was escalating then into sexual assaults? Was he able? Did he know these people Like was? Was he? I know he was a police officer in some of these towns he worked in, but did he know a lot of these people? Were there certain targets? What do we know about his early days? Was it just like tiptoeing into what he was going to progress to? What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 4:Well, I've never heard anything that he knew who these people were, whose victims were. I don't. I've never heard anything that he knew who these people were, who his victims were. I what I've always heard is that he, he basically stalked people and learned their routines, their coming and going, who was in the house, what they have. Sometimes he would go in while they were gone, figure out you know how their home was set up. If there were weapons, he would, or he would leave his own equipment and weapons there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he would hide things in some of the. I mean he was creative and did different things in different houses. So I think it was very difficult for law enforcement, for the detectives, to connect the dots back then or to even start to connect the dots. But they did. But he did do different things in houses. Sometimes he would plant something, hide it in their house and sometimes he wouldn't.
Speaker 2:Well, as a police officer, it's probably very advantageous for him to know the police officer's routine and, even with these areas being separated by different format, you know, like said, rivers, highways and stuff knowing how to skirt the law, I guess, and the policies and procedures and how they would look at things, and so that kind of kept people guessing as well too, bouncing around and then also, like you mentioned, at the crime scenes hiding things, planning things to essentially hide his identity.
Speaker 1:And it's interesting. Well, and when you change it up it's hard to target to one person. You know what I mean when you have different. When you have someone, you know typically if you're a burglar you don't typically go in to sexually assault someone. You're a burglar. So you're going in and take things and you're leaving. But then there's that escalation. But it's like he already kind of knew. I think he kind of knew where this maybe progression was going, or it just wasn't entertaining enough.
Speaker 2:Well, he wasn't leaving a calling card to note that it was him each time.
Speaker 1:I see on here the original Night Stalker. That reminds me of the Night Stalker. He used to stalk his prey too and know their routine and would sometimes go in the homes and observe and then leave and just creepy.
Speaker 3:Well, that was him. Yeah, yeah, were you living in Southern California at that time.
Speaker 1:Brandy. So I was living. So yeah, I was actually living in Ventura when the Night Stalker was out and I remember just being a little girl and riding her bike and not being able to stay out past, you know, before you know when, like before, it's dark, you come inside. One of the things I knew about the Night Stalker was that, for whatever reason, he would find homes that were very close to the freeway, maybe to get back to downtown Los Angeles, because we know that's where he was living. Most of the time was in downtown LA, um, and and multiple on the streets in hotels, Um.
Speaker 1:So you know, I I think it's just hard, you know, but with the Night Stalker, and and why I think the Golden State Killer is so different than really any any really killer, Chris, that I have, and I mean like serial serial murderers, sexual assaults, burglary, it's almost like he knew he was a law enforcement agent, you know, he knew what his job was, he knew how, like you said, to skirt the law, he knew what they would be looking for if they looked, if all the crimes look the same, and then I think he, you know, this guy, was an everyday man. We'll come to find out right, With children and family and people who would never think this about him, which is which, to me, is like the worst of the worst. Right Like you, go through your whole life and the things he did and the things he was capable of, and for nobody. I mean, am I right about that, ladies? Nobody knew in his family, right?
Speaker 4:Yeah, he's hiding in plain sight, right, just blending in. And it's crazy because, um, when this was all going on, my father worked up in Auburn and that's about 30 minutes from where we lived up in the foothills and one of the Auburn police officers said to my father because he knew where we lived and I have no idea who this police officer was, I'm just going to throw that in there but he told my father he goes. We think it's a police officer, we think it's that, that, that somebody that knows our routines and how we do things. Keep in mind the guy they arrested. He worked for the Auburn Police Department, uplifting rope and duct tape or something like that. But yeah, I mean, these are things that just happen. Then there's people that just blend in and there was no communication between the law enforcement agencies to know oh, we've been having this happen and you've been having that happen in order to connect the dots.
Speaker 3:Yeah Right, and I want to add to that that, while there wasn't the level of, you know, the technology and communication that we currently have today, as a police officer not only did he know of techniques, ideas, he probably had, you know, studied some criminals before, but he was privy to information that the police would be privy to, so, you know, as an insider right. And then, in addition to that, yeah, I know that in the Sacramento area, um detective Carol Daly was the lead detective on the uh East area rapist cases and they would hold these public forums at the local high schools with hundreds of people showing up, and you know they were probably put on television. So I'm sure he saw those too. And then, or he could have even been in attendance. Right, he could have been in attendance because, like I said, he was hiding in plain sight. There was one instance where a man got up to speak at one of those town halls and what did he say?
Speaker 4:Neal. It was something along the lines and we're no experts on this, but it was something along the lines of that. There was some doubt, if you will, that this person existed, that these things were happening, and within a week or so, he and his spouse were attacked. And this was around the time that what the perpetrator started doing was it used to be just when a woman was alone in the house or she had a small child and then it escalates where there was a man in the house and he would tie up the man, put dishes on him to, you know, be hurting, be rattling. So you know this caused so much fear in the communities and not trying to take anything away from the victims of this at all, this is just to give our perspectives of how living here, what things were like, and it was. Everybody was a suspect, everybody was afraid. You didn't know because this is somebody you had no idea who it was. Anybody that even looked kind of like a sketch, like one of the sketches, was a suspect. It was just a terrifying time and it went on forever For me.
Speaker 4:Where we lived, we didn't have air conditioning in our house and this is during the summer. It gets to be 110. Everybody in the areas had their windows open. Doors were unlocked. It was just a very gentle community feel, right. But now we had to lock our windows and we had no air conditioning and it was so miserable. You know, my my dad was was smart. He went out and bought us a swamp cooler and installed it, so now it was just hot and humid in the house.
Speaker 3:That's what good another perspective sentimental valley is. While it gets hot here in the daytime in the summer, we get that delta breeze in the evening. So that's why everyone, you have your windows open it just isn't a natural air conditioner.
Speaker 4:For the most part I was miserable, but yeah, it was just. It changed how we all interacted and, um, our trust level and um you know, it was just such a change in how we we lived that to this day you can talk to people that lived through it and everybody will tell you the same type of thing. It just you know, it's just we made us. Everybody was a suspect. We don't trust anybody and we lock everything up.
Speaker 1:So, speaking of how the area was feeling at the time and the difference, so we know there were 38 attacks in the Sacramento area. Um, you were you. Were you both teenagers at this time, living through this? Yeah, you know, 14, 15, 16 year olds what was it like being that age when this was starting? I mean, and this went on for years. Did it ever change? Did the community ever feel differently? Was there ever a time when you thought they're never going to catch him. He's going to continue to do this? Did they always think this was different people? And then people were shocked when they found out this was one person.
Speaker 1:Did the environment and feel ever change.
Speaker 4:Everybody pretty felt it was much felt it was one person, and it went on for so long that we wondered what happened to this person. It was never solved for, you know, for all those years and it was just like hanging like a cloud. Where is this person? They speculated that he died. He moved, he was in prison, not that he was still here, I mean, he obviously moved around and committed crimes throughout the state, but he eventually ended up back here again, about a half a mile from where I lived.
Speaker 4:So it was when that broke out and it's funny because my dad and all the other neighborhood dads it was not uncommon to have the men going out patrolling their neighborhoods at night just looking for anybody. My dad and our neighbors did that, and so to find out that he was actually living for many, many years, just honestly, down the street from us I'm saying half a mile, as a crow flies, I would drive by that area all the time. It was just like when they caught him, it was a shock because we didn't know that he was still around and it's like, after all these years we thought, oh well, this is going to be, you know, an unsolved crime. And then they solved it and we were just like are you kidding us?
Speaker 2:it was amazing to us yeah, and he moved closer to you, or I mean, I guess, initially, when a lot of these place that was this like a secondary residence or you know what I had heard?
Speaker 4:that he had bought this house, that he was arrested at like 30 years previous, but he hadn't always lived in it, that he'd moved around um, but there he was living right there like just kind of wondering, like, where is he like looking for?
Speaker 2:you know, victim, victim, wise, um, you know, how close in proximity were they occurring? Were all these crimes occurring close to where he was actually living? So was he going, you know, far around and kind of keeping his powder dry, so to speak where he was living at.
Speaker 4:There was one I know of in the, just not far from, not necessarily far from where he lived, but there was. The rest were a little, a little bit away. But you know we're talking several miles, we're not talking 20, always 20 miles. I mean to get from where he was living to say Rancho Cordova. You know it could be as far as 20 miles, or like Davis, that's a ways that's probably like 40 miles, 30 miles, yeah, something like that, something along those lines.
Speaker 3:Unlike Neil who lived here at the time. I didn't, but after he was caught I learned that one of his teenage victims was two doors down from where I currently live. And it was after he was caught that my neighbors started buzzing and I said I can't believe that no one told us that before. Well, there's still some of the original homeowners in my neighborhood and for whatever reason, it never came up after all these years. But yeah, two doors down. And then I discovered also that um Bonnie, who is the woman he had been engaged to before all this started, um, her daughter attends my church. In fact, she works at our church as well. Um, so then I found out that connection too.
Speaker 4:It's a small it means yeah, it's a small. It's. It's really essentially a small town. You might as well be in the Midwest, you know, and it's less than six degrees of separation. Everybody has a connection to somebody else, so yeah, it was a a.
Speaker 4:It was a time of a lot of fear. And I'll tell you, as a kid, teenager, you know, suddenly, you know, my parents were like you'd be very careful and I still got to go out and do things, but I had to be very careful. You know, like I would. I would ride my bike, you know, as we all did as a teenager, like 10 speed from from where I I live to to the lake, to my friend's house at the lake. So I would, I'd ride my bike. There was probably eight miles to her house and then we'd ride somewhere else along the lake and ride to another friend's house and come back again with at a time when we didn't have cell phones and nobody had a water bottle, nobody had a tire repair kit, you know. But you know there was still that weird element. Oh no, I'll be fine. This is just an offshoot and it only happens at night, so I'll be fine during the day. You know, I mean this is mindset that you have and teenagers are invincible, that's right.
Speaker 1:That's right, and I think we never think it's going to happen to us, right? No-transcript. I did not know that he actually wrote into the newspapers and even wrote letters. Maybe you can talk more about that and I also did not know that he would actually call his victims after he victimized them. So these were two things that I I didn't know he actually was doing. Um, can you, can you talk about those a little bit?
Speaker 4:Well, I know that the letters that were written, they were written to, uh, I believe them, like the mayor and one of the news outlets, um, and that was the first that anybody heard about. And at that point they didn't contact the sheriff's office and and they're like what's going on? And you know, it was uh, lips sealed, nobody said. And finally it was like either you come forward with this or we're going to come forward with this. And that's when they started letting information out and having the community meetings and things like that, because the news was going we can't keep this from people and you shouldn't be keeping it from people.
Speaker 4:And, unfortunately, views of how women were treated as victims in legal situations are much different than they are now. And these assaults were shameful and of no fault of these women at all. But you know how the law was written and how, unfortunately, many law enforcement officers talked about it. It was just, you know, I think at that point it was a misdemeanor, right, you know. So it was just a very sad time for that. And so then it started coming out and it changed. The laws have changed a lot here and the mindsets about these type of crimes have changed. So there was that, but then, yeah, we did hear that people were getting calls. Even before he was captured, these people were saying that they were getting calls. How terrifying.
Speaker 3:Yeah, sometimes years after they had been victimized he would call them.
Speaker 4:And what's crazy also about that is you're talking at a time when there really wasn't the internet to go look somebody up. So where is he getting the phone numbers?
Speaker 2:You know, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think just I mean if he had any still, any attachments to law enforcement, but I think too, just knowing the address, it was relatively easy. You know, everybody had a home phone too, so there was a pretty good chance that you know with correlating address, regardless of what the name was, somebody was going to pick up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is interesting, though, that it's like returning to the scene of the crime without returning to the scene of the crime. It's like connecting yourself once again to something, um, to continually torment these victims. Yeah, it's like it's not enough right, like feeding something inside of him that just was incomplete. I mean, what would make him think about that years later? Well it's considering how many victims he's had over the years right.
Speaker 2:I'm not even sure there's a dwelling on that. You could trace a phone call back then too. I'm not sure if there was even a capability to see where the number came from.
Speaker 3:There are some recordings. There are some recordings of some of his calls because some of the victims were given recording devices but the ones probably that came years later were not and I don't know when they became able to trace calls, but remember that was a process.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know, yeah it was, and not only that, he would know how long he has until he needs to get off the phone.
Speaker 2:I mean, if there's anyone who knows how to, well, I mean, I think before, if you were tracing, you had to like know when the person was calling, and then they would have to you know. So you literally almost have to have I'm guessing law enforcement there when the phone call comes through somebody else yeah, because there was no no caller id, things like that, where they could even call back.
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Speaker 1:Okay, ladies, so we are talking about a 40-year span from when these crimes sort of well gosh. I would say even maybe more like a 40 to 43-year span of when these crimes actually started to when there was an arrest that was actually made in this case. So how do you know how long? Because I know there were periods when there was no crimes happening. Right, like you said, was he in jail? Did something happen to him? Did he move? Do you feel like when those silent periods were there, was he just doing something different? Like when those silent periods were there, was he just doing something different moving, switching jobs, having kids? Do you know or have you heard any thoughts around like why some of this would stop and then it would pick up again?
Speaker 3:I've heard speculation that you know when the crimes would stop. He was in transit, you know, maybe between careers or starting his family, I don't know. There were definitely some breaks. And then you know the end of his terror reign, I think was around 86. But then he wasn't caught. Until what? Is it 2018?
Speaker 1:Yeah, 2017, 2018,. Which is so wild that you have someone go that long without committing another crime, or at least see that's something interesting too. Was there actually crimes committed that we just don't know about? Or maybe they didn't correlate them to him, it's? It's just so mind boggling to think that you do all of this and then you don't do it anymore, right?
Speaker 3:Someone who starts out with yeah, yeah, and you know, if you think about um, that he actually started out committing even smaller, petty crimes, but always someone who hurts animals. That is such a red flag. So he did that for years. I don't know how often he did it, but there are stories about him harming animals and killing animals, terrible things and then he went on to burglarizing and then to sexual assault and then murder and sexual assault, and I don't even know when the lines crossed. You know when the level of his crimes crossed.
Speaker 4:I'm sure there's some overlap, I'm sure there's some back and forth, but he, he did work for many years at a warehouse in right roseville, like many, many years, so I don't know what was going on with his life at that point that, um, he didn't commit crimes or didn't commit the same, uh, traceable type of crimes, you know, do you?
Speaker 3:know what I wonder, now that you bring that up, neil. I wonder if he was working night shift at the call out.
Speaker 4:He might have been. I'm sure the police already know this. Should we tell them, yeah?
Speaker 1:Do they know? Now, I remember the arrest. So let's genetic genealogy. You know, god bless it. It has solved a lot of crimes. I sat down with a Texas Ranger a couple years back who solved a crime after 38 years using this type of tracing to find out suspects. You know, austin yogurt shop murders. Gosh, if we could just get Austin PD and the FBI on the same page. They do have a little bit of genetic information that came back, but because of the way the law is written when it comes to people submitting their DNA, sometimes that information is not released by the police. But this is how this case was solved. So do you want to talk a little bit more about that and how they caught this guy?
Speaker 3:Sure, yeah, if I understand this right, at some point the law enforcement agencies, the different county enforcement agencies, started connecting, well into the 2000s I think, or maybe around 2000.
Speaker 3:And there was still some push and pull from some of the agencies not willing to share information or not willing to entertain the idea that some of these crimes were connected. But there were folks that just felt like in my gut, I know this is connected, some of the detectives. So at some point, and there's a genealogy expert that was key in this she was working with I think it was that Detective, paul Holes, and they were able to. Her name is Barbara Rae Ventner, that's right, venter, and she had helped police in another state, I think, solve a crime using genetic genealogy. So anyway, they finally started connecting the dots and utilizing her expertise and they were able to. It's a long process, apparently, because at some point you're able to figure out that this perpetrator was connected to this person 900 years ago and then maybe you do a little more testing and you gradually bring it together and you're able to find familial DNA connections with family members. It's pretty impressive and now, of course, now they're doing it everywhere all the time.
Speaker 1:But that's how they were able to track them down and it's pretty expensive to do.
Speaker 1:A lot of these companies are funded by donations and supporters and it also, like you said, it takes time and resources and it also takes people submitting their DNA right and people being in the system and sometimes it's not a perfect match. Sometimes, like you said, it's four generations, three generations, maybe it's not even a direct correlation, maybe it's not a brother or sister, maybe it's a second or third cousin and, like you said, they have to kind of narrow it down until they really can, can hone in on. Sometimes it's the area we've seen people caught based on the area this family was, you know, was in, so they could map it out. I mean, it's just some really great, wild, wonderful things that they're going to be doing for families, because I feel like I look at Facebook every day and genetic genealogy is solving something new and new and new which is so great to see, and I hope, from a legal standpoint and from a law enforcement you know, victim standpoint, that they're able to use this in the future for really good things.
Speaker 3:Oh, absolutely. I mean, I remember when, probably about five years ago, my brother asked me if I had done the 23andMe or the Ancestry sent in my spit, neil, you'd ask me if I'd done it, because you've done some. I found some relatives I didn't know I had. Yeah, my brother's like yeah, she's got stories, maybe we'll do do it might have to clear that with the relatives.
Speaker 1:Hey, I need to be on that. I need to be on that episode.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I need to be on that episode because I've got some stories, too, about some genetic genealogy coming back so I remember asking brother because he said he sent his in and I asked him has the fbi knocked on your door? And he said, well, no, why? And I? Okay, then I'll do it.
Speaker 4:And I do have another story about how that was used to solve a crime here a murder here. That was quite close to my family. But, yeah, I mean, what also I think is really awesome is that even decades ago, they were preserving DNA, assuming that someday it would be of value, and if they hadn't have done that, they wouldn't have been able to use this genetic right to connect.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, and I think it's wonderful that they didn't lose the DNA right or misplace the DNA or things like this that we see happen over so many years of shuff of you know, shuffling things around and things get lost, so it's just great that they were able to hold on to it. I do want to talk about you know. I remember seeing him on television showing up in the wheelchair thought, and I always think about this when I see perpetrators being brought into court or to have their day in court they look like the victim right.
Speaker 1:I always find it interesting that they go in looking sad and sick and helpless and feel sorry for me, when we in fact know that he had a neighbor back in 2017 that witnessed him actually doing some yard work or heavy lifting or something.
Speaker 2:So again it kind of goes with like the facade.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it kind of goes with like this facade of maybe who he thought he was throughout this whole you know, his whole time of the spree versus really who he is is how he showed up in court. So I just always find it interesting.
Speaker 2:Probably for leniency, I would imagine, to make himself appear as an old man and you know not to put him away.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know, but still, he's not the only one who does it.
Speaker 4:He's not the only one. He's not the only one who does it. He's not the only one who does it. After the plea deal was reached, the district attorney released a video from inside his jail cell and also from the hallway leading to the courtroom, and even though he would go into the courtroom and he'd be in a wheelchair, he wasn't in the wheelchair the whole time. He walked down the hall, then got in the wheelchair and went into the courtroom and in his cell he was doing gymnastics, if you will, moving from the bunk to the desk to a light, to all around. He was perfectly fine.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he was like Park Goat. He was so adept at climbing and moving his body Right, but then he would show up in court almost catatonic, mm-hmm, what a manipulator.
Speaker 1:I don't buy it. I wonder yeah, I'm not very good at it.
Speaker 2:It's kind of like when Brandy does her nails before. There's a lot of cleaning to do around the house.
Speaker 4:You know I can't do this, Nails.
Speaker 2:This is keeping me from you know.
Speaker 1:Sounds like we need to do an episode about that, Chris.
Speaker 2:My handicap.
Speaker 4:I can't.
Speaker 2:I just got my nails done.
Speaker 3:That's a good thing too.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to figure out what my out's going to be. I don't know, I can't.
Speaker 4:Have a beauty time.
Speaker 1:I don't know, I can't. Maybe you should get a manicure, have a beauty check, yeah, all right. So what do you? Do you want to mention anything about the? He took a plea, right, he is actually alive. Somebody asked me when I was talking to somebody last week that we were going to be doing this case this week, and somebody said is he alive? And I said, yeah, he's alive. In prison, um, consecutive life sentences. He is, he's in. I think he's like 70 in his seventies, right, 76, 77, maybe now or maybe even a little bit older, but, um, you know, uh, pretty certain he's going to die in prison. Um, that is the plan, they so. But do you? You know, I know we have like statute of limitations.
Speaker 1:There were so many victims in this case, you know, do, do. Did they just not know where to start? Did they know that some of these had happened so long ago? You know, I want to say this before we get too far into it. You know, a lot of people don't realize that it costs a lot of money to go to trial. Most attorneys will tell you they want you to settle, they don't want to go to court. A lot actually goes into that. So if they can mediate and find a happy medium, they will. And a lot of families get upset because you know DAs and people involved in this case don't want to take things to trial. We just saw this in the Idaho murders. There was a lot of disagreement in the families.
Speaker 2:It's a guaranteed win for them if the person takes a plea deal so. I dealt with this on another instance on a personal level. That sure you want to see justice, the DA doesn't?
Speaker 2:I mean they want justice, the da wants a win on their record and so if a plea deal is copped, um, it's still a win in their book and so I mean, it's no different than, like all those, um, the three kids from the uh, from arkansas, all the people who were finally released um the you know, whatever Arkansas Supreme Court or whatever it was, would still never admit any wrongdoing or that they did. They just let them out of jail because they did not want to take that judgment away. I mean, basically, they were just let go set free, but they never really admitted that they had made this big faux pas and, as you know, yeah, well, I think I think his age.
Speaker 1:I don't know about you, what you two think, but I think his age. I think the amount of crimes, I think that the time span that went by since the crimes occurred, having to try each individual I think it was just maybe a conglomerate of all of it and his age and just being able to say well did you do it and he says yes, and then you can kind of give it the evidence you have to get the people.
Speaker 2:You win some cases, you lose some cases. How are they? Are they all getting um? You know, tried concurrently. I just think, like him making a plea deal he is older gentlemen, but also to just coming up with that it does kind of put um well.
Speaker 1:And if you try him for murder and he gets you know a not guilty, that's Well. And if you try him for murder and he gets you know not guilty, then he can't try him for another one.
Speaker 2:The finality he's never going to see the light of day or anything like that. But you know, I still feel like that's mental justice.
Speaker 4:A lot of the crimes were past the statute of limitations and he couldn't be tried on those. However, in the plea deal he pled to those crimes anyway. However, in the plea deal he pled to those crimes anyway and the victims issuing victim impact statements were allowed to make them even though the statute of limitations had been exceeded in their particular situation. So they did have a voice there. But you know, a lot of people were not happy about it. They wanted to see the trial and I know that it's really a catch. I think the evidence spoke for itself. And then you have to balance that with the cost of a trial, which can run into the millions, and you have to bring in all these experts and all this type of thing, and the end result is he's in prison for the rest of his life either way, and he didn't spend millions and millions of dollars. And they did have the opportunity to get their impact statement.
Speaker 3:There was some negotiations in that plea deal. The victims were able to negotiate that even for the cases that were not chargeable because the statute of limitations had expired, they negotiated and I think they did some of this negotiation with the defense team, which was interesting, but they negotiated that he would have to admit to even the non-chargeable crimes, like those rapes, that unfortunately the statute of limitations had expired, and so that's why the hearings surrounding the victim impact statements and the I don't even know what you call it his admitting to all of these crimes were hours and hours long, like five hours. I heard six hours, because they read every single crime, even if it wasn't being charged, and he had to admit to it.
Speaker 4:He had to say, yeah, everybody was watching their TV or their computer and listening to everything happen, because this consumed, consumed this community for decades. And and then this happened and nobody was going to miss a beat, because everybody, everybody was impacted one way or another and the way we live changed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know, I think of Michelle McNamara. We know that she was a victim advocate, she was a researcher. She started, you know I always say like true crime podcasters. You know I think back. Oh, I don't know, michelle McNamara was writing true crime blogs, you know, 15 years ago, 20 years ago, about different things, and she starts writing about Golden State and then she starts really researching this case and unfortunately, you know, she passes away in 2016. He's arrested in 17. You know a lot of people will say that because of her work and because of her research, you know this was there, was. They were just one step closer to finding out who was doing this. So, being that she was in California and researching this on, you know what were the thoughts about her with police? I mean, do y'all know anything about that or had any feelings about that?
Speaker 3:I understand that she was working pretty closely with Paul holes at some point and um I recently listened to an interview he did a while back, um, I think it was for the, the HBO series, and um, he said he at one point he gave her an interview and he told her that he would disclose some information that she could not print in her magazine article. I think she was writing for a magazine at the time but she was clearly blogging, I think, about this case and she was obsessed with it and he trusted her and she held his trust and so they continued to work together. I understand, I know that she was.
Speaker 3:I don't know the details, but I know that she was an integral part of this case being pushed and, pushed, and pushed. In fact, she was the one who came up with the name golden state killer and Paul Holes said he kind of was a little bit resistant. He didn't want to insult her, I think, but he was a little bit resistant about another name for this person and he said she convinced me and I think that it was probably because this guy went all over the state of California. He know he went where he wanted and committed these horrible crimes.
Speaker 4:I mean, I can't even imagine what these victims went through, but yeah, I feel like her work and her research on this brought the light back to the case because, like I said, everybody thought that he was dead or in prison or whatever, and she really shined a light on it and what? Because of her work. Then suddenly, uh, a reward was offered and and people started talking about it again and I think that that was a huge part in making people go. Hmm, maybe we need to look a little deeper into this and her work itself with the DNA. If it hadn't been for that, I'm sure he'd still be down the street. Yeah, you know, I'm sure of it. I mean, that was an amazing task to take on and very insightful to even think about doing DNA using DNA, because it was so new. It's not so new now yeah, and you can't make for it yeah.
Speaker 1:Everybody's got it. Something we all share.
Speaker 4:Different than mine. So, yeah, we all share it. I think she was really the factor that got this case solved.
Speaker 3:And I mean he didn't even have his DNA out there, Mm-mm. So they honed in on who was living these areas at these times. After they connected the DNA between the crimes in Southern California, Central Valley and Sacramento area, Then they started with the familial DNA and figuring out, well, who could have been related to this family, who in this family was living in that area, this area and these areas at the time. So that's kind of how they did it. He didn't even have his DNA out there. They had to go get his trash at the time. So that's kind of how they did it. He didn't even have his DNA out there.
Speaker 1:They had to go get his trash, they had to start his house, yeah, and then DNA that way, yeah, and we were talking about the. The area thing has been a big, especially if there isn't any DNA out there and you're looking for family or relatives or people, and I mean, my gosh, you would have to think too, you know, was this sort of a big? You know how long did this actually take? When you have him moving around so much, when you have someone who has been committing crimes all over the state of California, you know, how do you even hone in on where they're living or who they're related to? So, gosh, it it's a, it's definitely a, a, a feat that they did with um having to look all of this up and but he is caught.
Speaker 1:Um, it, I, I, I would like to, I. You know, ladies, are there any documentaries out there you would recommend anything I would like to know. Um, maybe I'm just, maybe it's just some deep research for myself. You know what changed for him? Was it the working of the nights? You know, I would. Um, there's a profiler I've had on my show before who actually had met with Ted Bundy, and um, I would, really. I think this would be a very interesting conversation with him to um to really just kind of talk about.
Speaker 1:You know, why do you think he stopped? You know what are, what are some of those reasons. And then and then he gets caught. You know, then he doesn't commit any crime. Was he guilt? Was he um? Was he just? Was he bored? It just wasn't doing for him anymore? Did or, you know, was it his kids growing up and looking them in the face and knowing what he was doing? I don't know if we'll ever know, but any recommendations on what our listeners can go and check out that he might be on? I know we can. Michelle's book. They can go grab that. It's called I'll Be Gone in the Dark, which will, yeah, very insightful into this case.
Speaker 3:HBO did a series called I'll Be Gone in the Dark podcast, and then there's another one called man in the Window and that was done by the LA Times. Yeah, you can look up pretty much in this day and age, just Google it. There's so much out there on this. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well.
Speaker 3:Monica, neil, it's been a treat. Oh yeah, no, go ahead. I was gonna say one of the things we didn't do is we didn't talk about what wine we're drinking. What are you sipping over there?
Speaker 1:okay. So today I'm having um, I'm sorry we we are having a malbec from 4-h Winery, which is in Munster, texas. You know, chris, I have to say I probably have had less than three Malbecs from Texas, and so I'm glad I'm having another one because this is absolutely delicious. I mean, do we get a lot of Malbec? I feel like we don't have a lot of Malbec when we go and travel around to our wineries.
Speaker 2:I was trying to think. I want to say Edge of the Lake did not have a Malbec right.
Speaker 1:No, I don't think they had a Malbec. There's not very many Texas, I think grape selection is pretty key here and so you just don't see a lot of people growing it, and so I'm going to go do a little research on my 4-H winery See if they because they are a vineyard too, so they could have grown their Malbec grapes and then just harvested from the vineyards.
Speaker 2:But I have a strong feeling. Edge of Lake has one as well too.
Speaker 1:They probably do. They have all the delicious wine okay, ladies so that is what we are sipping on. What are you sipping on?
Speaker 4:well, well, first off, I think we need to go to texas, yeah, and go do some wine I mean, that's one of the things I had no idea texas had a wine scene oh man, we are second in tourism in the country behind California.
Speaker 1:We are fifth in production. We have California winery winemakers moving to Texas to settle in. So there's yeah, there's a lot of action happening in Texas around the wine industry.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, I think I know turning people on to Texas wines has always been a challenge since we kind of started this endeavor because you know we're having to find kind of replacements, you know, because, like, not a lot of Chardonnay here, so a lot of people have Viognier all around. Oh, it's kind of like a Chardonnay, oh it's kind of like a Cab, you know. The Tempranillo, oh, it's kind of like I don't even know what people know?
Speaker 1:I just know I like it.
Speaker 2:And so that was like when we first started drinking too, like what the heck is this Tempranillo, the Spanish grape? What is? Why are we? Why does so many of these white makers have this particular grape? And well, you know, it just grows well in Texas, and so a lot of them use, you know, the area to area, you know the grapes that grow to their advantage, you know and kind of make these interesting blends and things like that. And so, yeah, we had no idea that Texas had great wines either. Honestly, I think we always joked too when Brandy first said, oh, we're going to do this podcast and we're only going to have Texas wine, and I thought we would have seven to 12 episodes and be done with it.
Speaker 4:However, pretty early we learned that there was this tremendous need and I thought we would have seven to 12 episodes and be done with it.
Speaker 2:Pretty early we learned there was this tremendous, yeah I mean, but you know it was just. It was really eyeopening to us because you know there's, I think now that currently I know a lot of wineries have closed, but I still think there's upwards of 350 in Texas.
Speaker 1:Oh no, we're. It's way more than that. It's about 700 now in Texas. Oh no, it's way more than that, it's about 700 now.
Speaker 2:I disagree with those numbers. It's high, it was about 400 acres.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you just come on, we'll tell you exactly where you need to go.
Speaker 2:There's lots of places to go. The people are all very friendly. I think we've been to big winemakers and small micro wineries. There's so many people that don't even have the means to you know they're going to. They don't grow the grapes, they go and buy fruit and they go someplace else to process it and that place to bottle it, and so you do kind of get this big collective of all these different you know vintners that are getting together and coming together because a lot of people will collaborate and make a blend between two different little wineries. And so, yeah, it is a very cool scene and we've met some really great people and drank a lot of delicious wines.
Speaker 1:You must go visit, you must.
Speaker 3:Okay, what are you?
Speaker 1:spending time on.
Speaker 4:We are drinking Baker Family Wines, a Syrah, and this is actually. I don't know if you're baseball people, but this is Dusty Baker's winery and he's from Arlington and his winery is just in Sacramento, but the Syrah grape is grown on his property in the area also, so it's pretty darn good. He has quite a variety of 19 Crimes Snoop Dogg's 19.
Speaker 3:Crimes Snoop Dogg's.
Speaker 1:Actually, it's actually pretty good I am actually kind of obsessed with the bottling and all the labels. I'm a labels person, kind of obsessed with the bottling and all the labels. I'm a labels person. So I like when families and wineries share their art on their labels and how family have created some of the labels. It's just really cool. So that is the one thing about that wine Snoop Dogg. They make some awesome labels for their wine. I just love them.
Speaker 4:They're very affordable for their wine.
Speaker 1:I just love that. It's very affordable. Yes, yes, all right, ladies, where can people find your podcast? Are you everywhere Spotify podcast, just everywhere where people listen to their music?
Speaker 4:That's what I always say, right, we're on Apple and Spotify at Wine Camp Podcast. Yes, and we have Instagram also, right, yeah, so easy enough to find us and, uh, and we are pretty chatty kathy's on those, so it's always a good time yeah, and we love listening to you, so keep it up oh yes, thank you all so much and thank you for reaching out.
Speaker 1:I'm glad. I'm glad we got to do this episode together. Um, Please, friends, go check out Wine Camp Podcast with Monica and Neil and ladies, if you'll raise your glass, we're going to end this show how we end all of our shows. Until next time, friends, stay safe, have fun and cheers to next time. Cheers.
Speaker 3:Cheers folks, Thank you so much. Thank you Thank you.