Ep 110 SPOTLIGHT on the ICM Chief Midwife - Jacqueline Dunkley-Bent

Ep 110  (http://ibit.ly/Re5V) SPOTLIGHT on the ICM Chief Midwife - Jacqueline Dunkley-Bent

#PhDMidwives #research #midwifery #maternal #inequities #globalmidwifery #worldmidwives #ICM #leadership #advocacy #governance #datamangement

https://internationalmidwives.org/who-we-are/

First in our new 'SPOTLIGHT on' series, I chat with ICM Chief Midwife, Professor Jacqueline Dunkley-Bent

What happens when a national chief midwife takes the leap to champion more than a million midwives across 120 countries? We share that journey with candour and urgency—why timing mattered, how a call to “give back” became a global mission, and what it takes to turn evidence into action for women, babies, and families.

We unpack the role of a chief midwife at scale: elevating the profession, pushing for educated, regulated, and well-resourced midwifery, and ensuring midwife-led models of care are implemented where they save the most lives. The contrasts in maternal mortality are stark, but the solutions aren’t mysterious. From essential medicines that actually work in local conditions to policy choices that put women’s health at the centre, we look at how ministries and health systems can prioritise dignity and outcomes without setting midwives up to fail.

Crisis is another proving ground. When others run out, midwives run into conflict zones, climate disasters, and displacement. That requires leadership, voice, and the right tools. We talk about ICM’s partnerships for emergency readiness, the train-the-trainer programs shaping on-the-ground response, and the crucial difference between mere representation and real inclusion at decision-making tables. Then we shift to growth: the Midwifery Leaders Executive Sponsorship Program, the forthcoming ICM Leadership Academy, and the first global leadership competencies designed to guide job descriptions, performance reviews, and national workforce planning with consistency.

Data ties it together. The refreshed Midwives Data Hub helps leaders build stronger cases for change and gives educators and students a global view that sharpens local care. We close with stories that stay with you—frontline births in shelters, flags raised at ICM Congress, and a shared commitment not to leave anyone behind. If you believe preventable maternal death should be history, this conversation shows the path forward.

Enjoyed the episode? Follow, rate, and share with a colleague who champions midwifery. Your review helps more people find the show and strengthens the global voice of midwives.

Transcript

Stepping Into The ICM Role

SPEAKER_00 0:26

We're going to talk about your kind of current position now, because you've we've spoken in the last episode about how you've progressed through, you've done some amazing high-level jobs, including the first chief midwife of the NHS in um England as well. And now you've become the first chief midwife of the ICM. It is the first chief midwife, isn't it? Yes. That's right. What attracted you to that role? Was it a natural progression from where you were with the NHS in England? Or what was there something else that really attracted you to what you could do in that role?

SPEAKER_01 1:07

I I think, you know, I frequently throughout this podcast have spoken I've spoken about process that's really important to me, how we're being processed, how we're growing as individuals and feeling being and how we interact with other with others. And I'm also a very deep respecter of time. The time is now. What are you doing now in this situation? What is your sphere of influence and what is the art of the possible? And having uh been steeped in clinical practice, undertaken research, written for publication, um, led, managed, uh, been rewarded in terms of uh, you know, my studies and my OBE and various other things, I really wanted to do more. And I really wanted to give back. And I'd traveled, uh, I'd contributed to a session in Nigeria. One of the midwives at a hospital in Southeast London where I was a manager, said to me, One day you will come when I this person was going home to Nigeria to live, and said, One day you will come and you will teach my people. And I said, Oh, and I laughed and I giggled. And actually, I did. She called that favor in and I went and I worked, uh, taught with colleagues. Um, we we did some um uh obstetric emergency training and education training, and I saw the desire in mid from midwives in places other than the UK. I saw that desire, I saw that need, I saw healthcare provision, I saw midwifery, I saw midwives, and what I saw influenced my desire to want to help others that didn't have what we have. And I thought, I've got all this inside me, I'm gonna give back. And so I was too busy as the chief midwifery officer in the NHS in England to think about looking for a job at all. It was not on my radar, I was busy doing, trying to do the best that I could with with a great team, and wrapping up from COVID and mopping all that up as well.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

Yeah.

What A Chief Midwife Does Globally

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Absolutely. And somebody then sent me the job advert for the chief midwife for the ICN. And and I thought this is interesting. Uh sadly, my mother had just died, and it was two weeks after she just died when I received this text message. And sometimes, you know, when somebody dies who you love very much, it kind of changes how you see the world, how you think, how you feel. And I thought, well, I've got nothing to lose here. My heart's desire was to kind of give back and you know do things in other countries. So I'll have a go at this one. So I applied, and the rest they say is history. I became the chief midwife for the ICM. And many people don't know what a chief midwife is. Well, what I do is I champion the interests of midwives. My role is to champ chief midwives are very much usually national chief midwives in a country or across a jurisdiction, something about you know the Canadian states, etc. They're the most senior midwife in a country, located um or working within a ministry, or some are working at a national level as the chief midwife in a health system or across jurisdictions. Um, and so what I do as the chief midwife for the ICM, I champion the interests of midwives globally, elevating, I elevate the profession's profile, and I emphasize the significant benefits of a well-resourced, educated, regulated, and empowered midwifery workforce. And so that's my primary uh role, because uh there's no time like now to help save uh a life or reduce preventable mortality and morbidity. Um so ICM, for those that aren't aware, is um a non-governmental organization and NGO. Uh we are based in the Netherlands in The Hague. So I actually moved from England to live in The Hague with my family, and I and the ICM are is actually the global voice of Midwives. We represent over a million midwives worldwide, and we are in about 119, 120 countries working through circa 139 midwives associations, and there are members, so they're member associations, if you will.

The Scale And Reach Of ICM

SPEAKER_00 6:29

And one of the things that you have been doing with your role, because I follow you on social media because you are our global kind of like chief. So it is interesting when you're posting, when you're visiting other countries and what you've learnt from other countries, and what has surprised you about the midwives that you have met globally when you've been doing this travel? What are similar what are the similarities and what are the differences that you found?

Midwifery DNA: Unity And Purpose

SPEAKER_01 6:59

That's a really good question, or questions, I think. What I see in midwives globally, what connects us? You know, I frequently talk about the midwifery DNA, and of course that doesn't exist, it's a metaphorical expression, but I feel it doesn't matter where we go in the globe, we are united because of our profession and our um desire to support women in the way that we do and their families, the baby and their families. But what I see across the globe are midwives wanting to do the right thing by women, midwives that want to be enabled, enabled, supported, and empowered to be midwives, midwives that um have a they they that that's what I see globally. I I see midwives striving for recognition of who they are and what they do, midwives that are tired of having to say, my contribution as a midwife is midwives that are tired of saying, No, I'm I'm not a nurse, I'm not a community health worker, I'm not a doula, I'm not a birth companion, I'm not a traditional birth attendant, I am a midwife, and I and I see that, I see it and I hear it. It isn't all always directly said to me, but it's how people speak and share their experiences. And I see great things, I see that desire and I see that passion for midwifery across the globe, and that, you know, irrespective of language, irrespective of colour of skin, irrespective of socioeconomic status, irrespective of the accent in terms of how we speak, that's what I see across the globe, and that's what unites us.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

What have been a couple of things that have really surprised you in what midwives are doing in their national or local areas in your travels?

SPEAKER_01 9:07

Surprises, I think, are very much from uh a ministerial government perspective, you have the evidence, you have the formula that will make this situation right for your mamas, for your women, for the women that live in your country, for the young adults, for the girls. And yet you choose to do something different.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

That's gonna be challenging on a on an ethical and moral basis to see that, and we see this in every country because we've got areas, but is it harder in some countries when you come across that real government military kind of block when you know that so much more could be done, but it's not the focus?

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Well, I I think that I I'll step out of that political space in this current time, but I I will step into the data.

unknown 10:11

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 10:11

Um, you know, why would in some I won't name a country, but there are maternal mortality rates of nearing a thousand per 100,000 live births, yeah, versus a mortality rate in Norway of one per 100,000 live births. Now, I know the health system is different, the you know, everything is different, and it people have said you're comparing apples with pears, but women are women. It doesn't matter where you are in the world, a woman, you know. So what I find challenging is where countries have these very high maternal mortality rates, even mortality rates of 500, 300, 200. You know, the World Health Organization has stipulated that all countries should strive to get their maternal mortality rate below 70 per 100,000 live births. Personally, I think that is too high.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

Oh, it should be lower, absolutely.

Data, Mortality, And Missed Solutions

SPEAKER_01 11:19

Absolutely, and preventable death should be a thing of the past for sure, regardless of your postcode or where you know your geography. So I I do struggle with the fact that it's like I guess having the for those anti-vaxxers, forgive me, but for those that believe in vaccination, it's like having the vaccination to cure a pandemic like the coronavirus, COVID, yeah, and not use it.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

Yeah.

Funding Priorities And Obstetric Violence

SPEAKER_01 11:53

And so midwives and midwife models of care, midwives are the solution to reducing maternal perinatal mortality, morbidity. And yet how many countries are implementing midwife models of care? It's difficult because the purse string, uh I I should say the purse is um small. But countries, I know that countries are having to make tough decisions about how they allocate funds, education, health, um, the infrastructure, the road system, um, you know, uh all the different uh systems and strategies that are required to run a country well. But my view is in the absence of health, you won't be able to do anything else. And for those countries that, you know, aren't focusing on uh women, the childbirth experience, the childbirth journey, actually, even the experience, you know, countries that save lives and uh aren't always thinking about the maternal experience, you know, women can be psychologically traumatized, as we know. Um, and obstetric violence is a real thing. I've heard it. I've heard it. I've been in countries where obstetric violence is real. Obstetric violence, not I'm not saying obstetric violence as in obstetrician. No, it's about maternity care. Absolutely. And so I know it's tough and we have to be very careful about how we allocate funds, but the priority, let's start from the beginning. We know that if you invest in midwives, invest in midwives, invest in midwife models of care, don't set midwives up to fail. Midwives, I've given you midwives save lives, and then you have a situation where, well, I can't save a life because the drug that I'm using is inactive, like syntosinal, because there's no cold store. So I'm giving a woman an injection that will have no effect on stopping her postpartum hemorrhage. Governments can make a decision as to whether they pay for heat-stable carbatocin, for example, yeah, and and so on. So this is why I look to ministries and I look to governments and I look to health system leaders to advocate, advocate for women and their families. Because in the absence of women, we will not be able to continue the generations going forward. And I know that's a blanket statement.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

No, no, no, it makes sense. It makes sense. Uh, Frank Aquida made a comment when I was talking to her about how when she was at the table making these conversations with people, people were kind of treated her differently once she had the doctor in front of her name. Have you found something similar that there is a respect that is there that wasn't there before you had that? Or did you still get that respect because of the roles that you were playing? Well, not playing, it was working in you actually.

Titles, Bias, And Voice At The Table

SPEAKER_01 15:01

Yeah, I I think that certainly globally it makes a difference in the global south, it makes a difference. Um, and so yes, I I would say that also uh, you know, as a as a female, as a black female, you know, I I'm quite discerning of how people perceive and see and and interact. And so I I do feel that there are some aspects of um bias, discrimination that means that you have to step up higher and press into that journey. You know, that journey is really important because it makes you who you are, and even when your back's against the wall and you're really challenged, you can always pull on something because of that journey. So, yeah, I think Frank uh has has made a really good point there, but I would say definitely it matters so much in some of the countries in the global south, for sure.

Midwives In Humanitarian And Climate Crises

SPEAKER_00 16:11

Yeah, which is interesting. That would be an interesting conversation itself. We talked about the the demands on the purse, we talked about what others um need to consider. How have you seen the role or have you seen the role of midwives change, especially in humanitarian times, in climate change time or climate crisis that we're having? And at the moment, we've got lots of regions around the world that have had either long-term um conflict and humanitarian or it's been related to climate. Have you seen the roles of midwives change in those situations?

Tools, Training, And Partnerships

SPEAKER_01 16:49

Um, I I certainly think that as the world changes, women's needs change and therefore midwives change. You know, we we we're a profession that responds to the needs of those we're serving. So midwives are always having to evolve and change. I think in this space of humanitarian and climate humanitarian crisis, climate change, I think it's really important that midwives have a seat at the table. Yes. And that's where we need to really press into this leadership space. I, in my own experience, I had a seat at the Department of Health table when we were planning the Afghan resettlement program in England, when we were responding to the Syrian crises and the Ukraine war. As the chief midwifery officer for the NHS in England, I had a seat at the table. I didn't just have a seat at the table, I had a seat at the table where this wasn't just about representation. And I feel quite strongly about this. You can have midwives around for representation, but actually there was inclusivity. So my voice mattered and my voice was heard for the profession. And that's really important. So in this space of humanitarian and climate crisis and challenge, the midwife for sure has a strong role to play in country and system plans. It's so vital, it's so important. Midwives on the ground, I hear from midwives across the globe, but when the crises happens, people are running out of the crises. Midwives are running into the crises. And we need to ensure that our midwives, as we are used to being flexible and adaptable, but we need to give midwives the tools to be able to respond in a way that will save lives as best they can in these situations. And that's why the ICM work very closely with Direct Relief and other partners to ensure that midwives have the tools that they need. ICM have just developed the training, the trainer for uh um programs of learning for midwives who are prone to uh climate crisis challenges, humanitarian challenges, so that they can be equipped. So has the role changed? I would say that the midwives' role is always changing, always evolving, always adapting, because we are professionals that respond to the needs of women. And that's why leaders and managers have a tough job, a hard job, an important job, because they have to make sure that the continuing professional development keeps pace, keeps pace with the changes that are occurring. That's really important. And for some of my dear, wondrous midwives in the global south, uh, Southeast Asia, Sub-Saharan Africa, who do not have mandated continuing professional development, we will continue to advocate for them to have that. They should not be left behind. We are one family joined through the midwifery DNA, and we need to support each other. And I feel really privileged in this position to be able to be that voice, have that voice, and support others to have their voices heard.

Building Leaders: Sponsorship Program

SPEAKER_00 20:22

And I'm a very strong advocate of being a member of a professional association because you do get that collective support, you do get those benefits and those educations that you can tap into that can help with that, which kind of leads quite nicely on to you've just done, I think it's just closed, the second call out for your midwifery leaders executive sponsorship program. So you've successfully had one round, it goes for two years, and you've just had, I think it closed yesterday. Um the second round. Is that how you're helping to get and develop the um capacity build the future leaders so they can have those conversations at those tables?

Towards A Global Leadership Academy

SPEAKER_01 21:04

Yeah, really, really good segue, um Liz, and absolutely, and it's very timely, isn't it, that it closed yesterday. This is one of ICM's flagship programs. And my thinking when I was developing this program was we need to invest in people often say, the people of tomorrow, the next generation. What about today? What about right now? You know, so this program is about right now investing in those leaders that will hand on the baton to those tomorrow and the next day, investing in leaders right now. And that program is as I say, it's a flagship program. It really excites me because the the executive sponsors are very senior people who are giving back to midwives and indeed the midwifery profession for women, babies, and their families. Let's be clear about why we're doing this women, babies, and their families. And so uh, if if anybody wants to read more or hear more, log on to the ICM website or type into your search engine, Midwife Leaders Executive Sponsorship Program. Uh, our sponsees are supported throughout their leadership walk for a period of two years. It will be one sponsor to one sponsee. Um, hopefully that's what's happening now. Cohort one is going really Really well. ICM, myself, and another midwife uh called uh Kate uh uh Stringer. Uh she has uh we both undertake midwife uh executive sponsorship check-ins with our sponsors. Our sponsees will be having their first um webinar, if you will, sharing some of their stories and so on. And it is fantastic. My sponsee is um from Namibia and I'm supporting her, but I'm learning so much from her too. And once people, once the program is complete, new cohorts are coming on every six months. So the program will never end. It will just be this virtuous circle or cycle, and at the end of two years, sponsees will move into the Leadership Academy alumni.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

Excellent.

Defining Leadership Competencies

Congress, Community, And Shared Standards

SPEAKER_01 23:19

The Leadership Academy is being built as we speak. It will be the first, it was it will be ICM's Leadership Academy, the first one of its kind, currently being built at the moment. I was keen to have a space where midwives across the globe, having stepped out of a heavy MBA or an MSc or a PhD or other courses, where they're very assessment heavy, um, assignment heavy, being held to account. They could then come into the academy and have a time of reflection, have a time of learning that isn't pressured, cycle through some of the units of learning and really build and continue to build their leadership capability by being in the academy. Watch this space. We'll be sharing more about the Leadership Academy. It will be phenomenal, uh, but more to come. But what I will share as we're speaking about this leadership space is the competencies. ICM are developing the first global leadership competencies of their kind. And these competencies will hopefully go to council, our council, um, in June. And uh hopefully at that after council, we will have leadership competencies. These will be can be used for countries to develop job descriptions. Um, if they're developing their workforce and they're building the roles of midwife leaders, they can use these competencies to build their job descriptions. The competencies can be used as a self-reflective tool. They can be used in performance reviews and so on, used by countries that are developing national workforce plans and so on. They will be absolutely phenomenal and much needed. Because at the moment, Liz, we have variation across the world about what a midwife leader does and is. And when you look at the job description, it is as far as the East is from the West with diversity. Diversity is good, but we do need some consistency for our profession. So there, the leadership competencies will be birthed soon, a long gestation, but will be birthed soon. And lastly, we have the board leadership development program that is currently being developed too, and that is a leadership program that will be offered to all our new boards coming in. When the board changes and the president changes, then this board leadership development program will be offered. And we're starting with Bangladesh.

SPEAKER_00 26:03

I have done amazing stuff.

SPEAKER_01 26:06

Yeah, yeah. So we're gonna be sharing using um the board, we're gonna be uh facilitating a board leadership development programme with the Bangladesh Midwives Society very soon. So watch this space for leadership, it's a really exciting time.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

And I think what's been as an educator myself, obviously, I look to resources that I can teach. I teach a topic on global midwifery, global um midwives and health. And so I use a lot of the stuff. And so looking at what's come out over the last few years, and it's the clinical competencies, it's the education competencies, it's the education curriculum comp all of this stuff which you sit there. And I was lucky enough to attend my first ICM in Bali um three years ago. And when you kind of walk in, and there was, I think, about 3,000 midwives there, and it was that McMiffrey DNA, that feeling that whilst we have different levels of income, different levels of resources, we all wanted to do exactly the same thing, which was to be the best midwife that we could in whatever we were doing. So having these global expectations of this is the minimum requirement, and how you do it is a real nice way to kind of bring everyone together. And I think that's why I'm kind of excited, I'm very excited about the next ICM, which is in a few months' time, five months' time in Lisbon, because it is about that getting together with like-minded. And then we were in a workshop at the end of Bali, the day it finished. We did an education workshop that Lardell did. But it was like talking and listening to the educators from Ethiopia talk about their expectations and what their government tells them to do and how that guides their education, talking about some of the other countries as well on what and how they teach was a real eye-opener and was really amazing to sit and kind of go, Oh, wow, so you do oh, so that's what you do. Okay, that's really interesting. And those conversations, I think, are really important to have, which is why the virtual networks I think are going to be in your academy, is I think a wonderful idea.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

Absolutely, um, Liz. It's the the it's it's exciting times, and um it's you know, it is hard uh when you think about midwives that haven't got the infrastructure that some have got, haven't got the tools to do their job well, aren't supported by CPD, etc. But I do believe that our ambition and our mission is right, and we will not leave uh anybody behind. This is uh this will gain momentum and we will continue to push the boundaries. Uh, because what really have we got to lose you know to save a life? What have we got to lose? Yeah, this is about saving lives. So, yeah, absolutely agree.

The Midwives Data Hub In Practice

SPEAKER_00 29:09

So, one of the kind of I've got two more questions for you. Um the last year, or the year's blend to me. So, I don't know if that's last year or the year before, um, you launched the Midwife Data Hub. So it's easy for me as an academic to gain access to it. It's easy for me in a high resource country to look at how I can use that. How can that be used by someone who's in a clinic or in the community in different countries?

Why Students Need A Global Lens

SPEAKER_01 29:38

Yeah, I mean, that's a really good question. And I I'm really, I totally understand why you shared that. You know, there's no point in having these amazing research documents, you know, these amazing portals, when actually the people on the ground that are doing the work don't know they exist or don't engage with them or don't benefit from them. And so the data hub was, I say it was launched, that there was the uh Midwives Um Hub uh that was in existence, but it was refreshed last year and it was called the Midwives Data Hub, and that was the launch. So we encourage through our midwives associations, our member associations, for them to articulate to their members, you know, the same thing that we do with our midwives associations in our regional workshops where we do demos and uh give them an insight into what the hub can do for you. We would like our midwives associations to do the same thing with their people in country because it, you know, unless we have that kind of uh ripple effect, then we're never going to get to the person at the bedside. So the hub is fantastic for leaders uh in in countries where you're trying to build a business case to support the narrative around midwives and midwifery, be that more midwives, be that a particular way of working, you can compare yourself, the data with other countries. You know, our mortality is this, there's is that. They've got you know twice as many midwives as we've got. Yesterday I was speaking to our new midwife advisor, Solomon from Ethiopia, and he was telling me that he had 27,000 midwives in Ethiopia for over a million births. I have 24,000 midwives in England for 600,000 births. You know, these and so that the data hub will give you this information. It it gives it and for those uh midwives that are studying anything above even at degree level, actually, our undergrads, our student midwives, they need to have a look at the hub. They need to horizon scan, just don't navel gaze at what's in country, just have a look and have an appreciation of what's happening in other countries because it will help you to change your mindset. So it can be used as information gathering to build a business case, to build a policy brief, build a narrative, um, a case for change, or it can be used as a reflective point. Oh, I'm in um, you know, uh uh England, and well, look at what um Uganda's doing. And and and and we have midwives that are educated in the same way, but look what's happening in terms of their practice, for example. So, but to enable midwives to engage with the hub in that way, we have to be closer to them. And that's why the midwives associations need to pick up this baton and say, let's start with our undergrad students. Look at this. Look at this, click on that, click on that. You know, where are our neighboring countries? What's your geography like? Who lives in the global south? What does sub-Saharan Africa really mean? And what does it's just a reflective point? Get them to open up their phones and just have a have a play, you know, because even them at their level need to start thinking globally because the world is getting smaller.

SPEAKER_00 33:11

Which brings me kind of, I was gonna ask something else, but that's the segue is too good. I want this question, is is kind of a bit selfish because it's something that was a feedback from a student from my global health topic, was what I know the answer that I give them. So I'm really interested to know what your answer is. Why is it important that midwifery students understand the global midwifery scene, even if they have no intention of working overseas as a midwife?

SPEAKER_01 33:38

That's a really good question. And I, you know, I could, you know, it's a fantastic question. I remember being a junior midwife, and all I could think about was the woman, the baby, and the family. I the they'd say the chief execs walking the floor, and I think, well, who's that? What why would I want to know that? And so I I I really can put myself in the mindset of uh student midwives, um early career midwives who uh thinking that they're but it but it's about looking down. I think everyone needs to look up when that tsunami's coming, you cannot be looking down, you know. So um that and and you know, we're in a world, as you know, Liz, where if you go on a train, on a bus, even on the street, everybody's looking at their phones. Oh, yeah. Me included. Me included. So, you know, that there is something about if we do insist on looking down at our phones, look at something that gives you a global context. Why should student midwives, junior midwives know anything about the world when they have no intentions of working there? Because they are midwives and they're invested in midwifery. And what they do in one part of the world can have a ripple effect in another. So even an assignment of a student midwife, their assignment, you know, that their lecturer says it's a good grade, it's a good piece of work. Why not turn that into a publication in a journal so that somebody in the deepest parts of Nicaragua can benefit from? You know, this is the ripple effect. And I think, you know, self-interest in our profession needs to be left at the door because I do believe that as midwife, we have a responsibility to share with others, and even if it's just in a publication, not just but in a publication, is a good way to do that if you haven't got a passion to maybe travel to other countries.

SPEAKER_00 35:34

And I think, yeah, dissemination is the key. Otherwise, we keep reinventing the wheel. We don't learn, we don't see what works and what doesn't work. Um, and my response to that is to the students as in Australia and especially in Adelaide, where I live, is we're a very multicultural country and a very multicultural city, and they're gonna look after people who've come from these different countries and have had births and experiences potentially brought trauma from those previous experiences into our healthcare setting. So to have some broader understanding of what's happening is gonna help them understand and help build relationships as well.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

Um very good. I couldn't, you know, that is amazing, and you're absolutely right. And I I wish I'd have thought of that myself.

SPEAKER_00 36:12

But yeah, we work on two different levels though. If neither of them are right or wrong, both of them are right, neither of them are wrong, I should say. But we're seeing the world from different levels. I'm still very much insular here, going on a one-on-one basis. You've had the advantage of seeing midwifery globally, you've had the advantage of seeing the changes and the barriers and what one person can make a difference to versus what a government, and I I do use Bangladesh and the changes that they've done over the last 15-20 years as an example because they went, no, this is this is this is a national disaster. We need to make some changes, we need to do some priorities. And they've done some amazing work to lower.

Looking Ahead: Competencies And Congress

SPEAKER_01 36:57

Absolutely, absolutely. And and you know, I also um, and for those that are listening, you know, it's really important that leaders and managers of health systems just playing into what you've said, ensure that their workforce is reflective of the people that they are serving.

SPEAKER_02 37:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:16

So you said that, you know, you use the example of in Adelaide, you know, the world is small, migration's happening whether you like it or not. And um, and therefore you're caring for people that may not be like you, may have different cultural contexts to you. And therefore, you know, it's important, number one, that we're educated and versed in what those people need, but also the workforce needs to reflect the people that they serve. And that then helps to break down these boundaries as well.

SPEAKER_00 37:49

So, apart from the round two of the executive sponsorship, the academy, the board, what else are you looking forward to in the next kind of like one to two years in your role? Oh my goodness, that what you know.

SPEAKER_01 38:03

I I I need to look forward to the birth of the global leadership competencies. I need them to be birthed. I need the academy. It is a work in progress. We're still pursuing funding, we're still building units. It is going to be amazing, but I need to see that birthed. I cannot get over those hurdles that that my thought processes until those things come into fruition. But um, other great things I'm looking forward to, I'm looking forward to Congress. The opening ceremony is a goosebumps moment when people from all over the world are walking with their flag. It is a goosebumps moment, and I love it. So looking forward to Congress. I'm looking forward to um other things, I guess, like how we can ensure that we use our programs well at ICM and our interventions well to serve those people that are whose voices aren't heard, so that all women, all women and babies have the same maternity experiences and outcomes as those who have the best. It's that is that is added to my LinkedIn profile, anywhere I can put that, it is, and I truly mean that. And you know, and I think unless we have hope like that, that might not happen in my lifetime, but because this is you know a big world, small but big, but lots to do, but we should have that ambition that you know all women, yeah, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 39:46

I think that's something that is shared.

SPEAKER_01 39:48

What are you looking forward to, Liz?

Visibility, Research, And Sharing Voices

SPEAKER_00 39:51

Um I'm looking forward to Congress because apart from the fact that I'm speaking at it, I love learning from the different people, and I still remember, and I cannot remember her name, but I can see her at the last Congress, was the Ukrainian midwife who spoke, and it was she was um it was talking about the first six weeks of war in the Ukraine and how they went down to the bomb shelter, they ended up birthing, I think, 140 odd um babies, a couple of twins, a couple, and I think one set of triplets, and she didn't know where her family was, she had no communication with her family, and it was just kind of like and they were using the doors of one of the shelters as beds and spaces, and there was not a dry eye in the house when she was talking about what her experience was. And then there was a young less from Haiti who spoke about her experience as well, and just the communication and sitting and listening to that. So that's what I'm really excited about, um, apart from finishing my own personal PhD. But it's it's about it's about sharing what midwives are doing, it's about increasing the visibility of midwives and in particular those that have got doctorates in my case, but sharing what midwives are doing, the little research they're doing on the floor in a clinic, in a community, how can we better share and better disseminate them? Obviously, hence my podcast. And I'm going to do some spotlight sessions on midwives like that that don't necessarily have um formal qualifications, but are doing some really interesting things in different countries. So I'm helping to make some connections for that at the Congress so I can start bringing some of that into the public sphere as well and sharing some of the stuff that they're doing. So that's what I'm excited about over the next kind of year or two.

SPEAKER_01 41:43

Excellent. Excellent, good to hear that.

SPEAKER_00 41:46

Thank you so much for your time.

SPEAKER_01 41:49

You're welcome.