Rising Tides: How Science Is Shaping Maine's Coastal Future - with Bill Mook

Decisions made today will shape Maine’s coast for decades to come. In this episode of Rising Tides, Bill Perna speaks with Bill Mook about how science, regulation, and long-term thinking influence the future of the working waterfront.

Bill Mook reflects on the role of research and governance in managing coastal change, from aquaculture development to broader environmental pressures in the Gulf of Maine. Their conversation explores how evidence, public process, and collaboration help guide difficult choices, and why patience and perspective matter when balancing growth, conservation, and community needs.

Perna Content's Rising Tides explores how coastal Maine is adapting to environmental, economic, and cultural change through long-form conversations with people working on and alongside the water. New episodes are released fortnightly.

The podcast accompanies the book Rising Tides: Adapting to Maine’s Coastal Future, available at www.pernacontent.com/publishing

Transcript

Speaker 0 | 00:04.043
Welcome to season 2 of Perna Content's podcast, now called Rising Tides, adapting to coastal Maine's Future. I'm your host, Bill Perna. And this season, I'll be speaking with marine biologists, ninth-generation fishermen, oyster growers, lobstermen, entrepreneurs, you name it. All of them working hard to shape the future of Maine's coast. And what ties them together is a deep love of what makes Maine, Maine. And a drive to meet big challenges with smart, innovative solutions. The Gulf of Maine is one of the fastest-warming bodies of water on the planet, and that brings serious risks, but it also sparks innovation and resilience. These are global issues, just told through local stories. Stories about saving, working waterfronts, strengthening the coastal economy, and keeping Maine's coastal communities vibrant. There's grit, there's humor in these conversations. So please join us. As we're charting a course for what comes next. Bill Mook really needs no introduction. He's the founder of Mook Sea Farms and is a well-known name in the world of aquaculture. A true pioneer, Bill has spent decades pushing the oyster industry forward with a focus on innovation, sustainability, and adapting to a changing ocean. Through his work, he's not only helping to shape the future of Maine's marine economy, he's also playing an active role in protecting the environment and tackling the impact of climate change. Head on.

Speaker 1 | 01:34.115
Good morning, Bill.

Speaker 0 | 01:38.837
Good morning. How are you?

Speaker 1 | 01:40.322
I'm good.

Speaker 0 | 01:40.978
Good. Hey, Bill, I really appreciate you taking the time to have a chat with me. No problem. I always feel like you know the questions better than I need to ask. And I'll tell you what I'm looking to you in particular for is your perspective. It's really important to people. Whenever I tell people I'm going to speak with Bill Mook, they always say, oh, really? That'll be interesting. And I do think the community looks to you in a certain way. So when you think about building a bigger picture plan for Maine's working waterfront, especially the oyster side of it, what do you think? Are the main factors that need to be considered?

Speaker 1 | 02:20.686
So I guess there's sort of two parts of this. One is oyster specific. And what's going on with the marketing of oysters and innovation and sustainability, all those things. The other part of it is, you know, the marine economy. SeaMaine, have you heard about that group?

Speaker 0 | 02:39.311
No.

Speaker 1 | 02:40.116
The idea of it was to sort of look towards what are the needs of the marine economy, how do we keep it resilient and growing and living up to its potential. And I guess we're one of the leading states in oyster aquaculture. And I think one of the things that set us apart. Is the leasing process. It's also an inhibitory problem, I think, for the industry, but it does provide a fairly predictable framework for getting leases and growing the industry. And we all complain about how slow it is, and it is too slow, way too slow. Moose Seaparm just had an experimental lease that finally went, it was an experimental lease that got converted to a standard leasing. God, I think it was like two to three years before the hearing for doing that happened. You know, that is inhibitory to growth. On the other hand, you don't want it to be too easy and quick because you don't want to have a gold rush mentality. You want people who are really thinking it through, getting into it. So I see that kind of cutting both ways a little bit, I guess. The other thing that sets us apart is we have so many kind of micro environments, if you will. You know, if you use the oil. Wine analogy. You know, we have a lot of different ecosystems or environments where oysters are being grown, and it does lead to different taste profiles to be marketed. And that gets to something that I would point out later, when we maybe talk about big versus small farms and so forth, is that? I think, like the wine industry, it provides an opportunity for the oyster industry to have a full range of side companies, which I think is really important. And again, the importance of that, why I think it's important, we can talk about it a little later.

Speaker 0 | 04:27.233
You mentioned Sea Maine earlier. How do you see aquaculture fitting into the bigger picture of Maine's coastal economy?

Speaker 1 | 04:33.920
The coastal Maine economy is really pretty monolithic with lobsters. And my strong belief is that resiliency is needed given all the challenges we face. And that resiliency comes through diversification. And so I feel, you know, We obviously want to improve and sustain the lobster fishery as much as possible, given the climatic changes occurring. But we also... Need to have other things coming along and developing so that when and if there are collapses, they're not the only game on the coast because so many coastal towns are dependent on them. And I think, you know, the Damascotta is a great example, Damascotta, Newcastle, of how the oyster industry has really become a part of the local economy. I mean, there are, I think you talked about this, the number of farms just between, you know, in like a five or six mile stretch, over 100 employees now between them. With direct and indirect impact on the local and state economy. It's not insignificant.

Speaker 0 | 05:46.189
What's your take on how the oyster markets changed over the past couple of decades? I mean, anything in particular that you think that set the direction that it's gone in?

Speaker 1 | 05:55.970
Essentially, what happened was after the oyster collapsed during the 20th century. Towards the end of the century, a great... Deal of effort to produce disease-resistant oysters. And that success ultimately was commercialized in the very early 2000s. And that is what I feel has fueled the oyster renaissance. And really, the market has grown since that time, and it's still growing. In spite of, you know, GMRI did this market study, and they said, oh, it's going to plateau, and the production will exceed demand, And that was a long time ago, and they said it was going to happen in five years. Well, it didn't really happen. And I don't know if I told you this when we talked before your last book, But my sense is that there is a really big potential demand that is not being met in the U.S., And my evidence for that is kind of twofold, two different thoughts. One is, from the 19th to the 20th century, Oysters were being produced and by the train load out of the Chesapeake Bay, all around New York, and everybody ate oysters. They were shipping oysters to the Midwest by train, and, you know, the per capita consumption was much higher than it is now for the U.S. Now, granted, there were plentiful, they were considered to be cheap, but even then, there were, you know, there were high-priced restaurants that served oysters. So just in terms of within the U.S., There's a... Historical basis for thinking that there's room for market growth. And then the second part of that is more current, and that is looking at the EU. In fact, France, I think they were producing like 20 times more oysters than all the United States, 2018, I think. And the market, if you look at the size of the market, it certainly wasn't 20 times bigger. So, again, there's evidence that the per capita consumption of oysters can grow. So that's kind of the market trend.

Speaker 0 | 07:58.795
It sounds like there's still plenty of room for the market to grow, from your perspective. What does the growth actually look like on the ground in Maine? And as more people get involved, do you think sustainability remains front and center?

Speaker 1 | 08:10.824
The overall aquaculture industry in Maine has really grown a lot. We've added not just oyster farms, but also there's some scallop farming that's happening now. And certainly, seaweed has grown and, you know, becoming a thing, which is great. There are definitely more people entering the oyster farming business than there were 10 years ago, no question about it. And what I feel is really exciting about that is they're young people and there's a lot of passion and smart behind it. People are articulate. You know, whenever some bills that are really detrimental to the growth of agriculture, sort of anti-agriculture bills, These young, passionate people turn up at the legislative hearing and basically speak common sense. They're very articulate, and in every case so far, they've prevailed. That's the aquaculture growth question. Sustainability practice, How has sustainability become a core principle in Maine's oyster farming practice? Well, I would say that it's become a core principle, because oyster farming de facto is, you know, a very sustainable way to produce food. And also, I feel that the people who get involved in oyster farming... are, and I think I said this before when you interviewed me before, you know, you are de facto an environmentalist. Because the product you're growing requires absolutely clean water. And so that's the kind of people that are attracted to it because of its sustainability, as we see the current growth, and the fact that, you know, these people tend to be environmentalists. So I think that's really exciting and it's bringing new ideas. It's bringing new energy and passion, and it's exactly what the industry needed after the old-timers like me start to age out, right? And the sustainability part of it, because of the fact that you're so dependent on the environment, I think it means that you look for ways to improve that. And certainly over the years, The oyster farms on the Danvers Scott River every year do a river cleanup, which we do in conjunction with coastal Rivers, and we provide our boats. Moog Seafarm has always provided a dump truck to meet at the time of landing and take all the stuff that's collected to the landfill. A lot of it gets recycled all through the year. If gear is found, people call us and we go pick it up. It's a very different model from traditional fisheries so far, I think. You know, again, it goes along with the mindset of the people involved in the business. And certainly the water quality advocacy has been a historical fact, you know, going way back. The oyster farmers in the Denver-Scotter River really were the ones, the push behind. Creating the monitoring systems using citizen science and so forth. And let's see, we're always interested in more fuel-efficient engines. We started out with two-cycle engines. We quickly adopted four-strokes because of the fuel and oil issues. And I will say that we're also, I think, in the forefront of exploring and trying to see electric outboards become a reality. I know we talk to people who are developing that quite a bit. Over the last number of years.

Speaker 0 | 11:32.685
You've talked a bit about people working in the industry. What about the other side? Have you seen shifts in how the public thinks about oysters or seafood more generally?

Speaker 1 | 11:42.331
Yeah, as far as seafood trends, I feel that there's an overall trend in terms of having people know that their food is grown in a sustainable way, that it's not adulterated with chemicals and all of that. Oysters fit right into that narrative, accurately. I feel that more and more people are learning to eat an oyster and like it.

Speaker 0 | 12:06.765
Yeah,

Speaker 1 | 12:06.925
right. One of the things that I've always enjoyed about doing events is when you have these people who've never tried an oyster. And, of course, sometimes they'll come up and eat a raw oyster and they'll make a face, you know, that's awful. But more often, you have somebody eat an oyster and you can just look over to their, like this. Wow, that is amazing. Yeah,

Speaker 0 | 12:30.441
yeah.

Speaker 1 | 12:31.643
And I personally have converted people from non-oyster eaters to oyster monsters. You know, they will go out and eat all kinds of oysters whenever they can. That's fun.

Speaker 0 | 12:44.512
Hey, if you're enjoying this podcast, do us a quick favor. Hit like or subscribe, or, better yet, leave a review. It really helps more folks find this podcast, and it keeps us going with new stories and conversations. It's a small thing, but it, it really means a lot. Thanks so much. You've talked about how much the industry's grown. But what about the environmental pressures that come with that? What sort of challenges are you seeing now?

Speaker 1 | 13:15.018
There are certainly environmental challenges. The water temperature changes can be a double-edged sword. If you look to the Mid-Atlantic and places where oysters have traditionally been. Those are warmer waters, and that warmer water is moving north. Certainly, I think the benefit has been probably an accelerated growth rate. When I started growing oysters back in the mid-'80s, you wouldn't think about really marketing oysters until after the second winter. You'd spawn them in the spring one year. You'd grow the seeds that summer. They'd go through the next winter, and oftentimes the following winter before you would have them. Big enough and hard enough to sell. I think, you know, now we are selling oysters much faster, literally starting maybe 14, 15 months after spawn. They're ready to start being sold, and then they're sold throughout that next year. So, and I think the causes of that are certainly warmer temperature, genetic. You know, we've been selectively breeding oysters for better growth. Also, you can't neglect the improved growing technology. You know, they definitely grow faster near the surface. In oyster, grow cages or Zap Zapco bags, or whatever. You know, something that that's taking advantage of more food at the higher and warmer temperatures in the upper part of the water column. But I also feel that ocean acidification is a problem. We certainly have dealt with that successfully through buffering our seawater. And I think we talked quite a bit about that before, that was in the other previous book, and and you know, the the thing that I worry about going forward is not so much right now. For the feed production in the nursery or in the hatchery, because we're able to control the CO2 in the water in the hatchery. However, during the winter months, when the water temperatures are cold, as the concentration of carbon dioxide goes up in the water, the problem is that that means that the water becomes more corrosive. And as the concentration increases with increasing carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere and more runoff of low pH water with more intense storms with heavy precipitation, those are factors that concern me for the shell erosion occurring in market-ready oysters during the winter. And it's something that has not been, you know, really studied yet, but we certainly, you know, have been thinking about it. And the thinking behind the oyster inventory room we built, where you would be able to do some remediation before you sell them. To make the shells a little stronger.

Speaker 0 | 16:01.671
Right.

Speaker 1 | 16:02.265
The other thing I would say, is that everybody knows about and fears the increased intensity and frequency of intense storms and all that. And certainly, last January was a wake-up call to many who were not awake yet. Our wharf, for example, which was built in 1989, had never been submerged in the near 40 years that we were there. And in January, both of those storms, we had six inches of water over the decking.

Speaker 0 | 16:34.428
Fortunately,

Speaker 1 | 16:35.549
the wharf was chained down and we did not suffer the damage, But as you know, there was an enormous carnage along the waterfront, all up and down, all the southeast facing shores and more were really, really devastated. So those are obvious concerns, along with rising sea level and all that. However, there are subtle changes, and in 2020, we encountered... One for the first time, and we don't fully understand the problem, so I can't say, oh, yeah, this is climate change happening. But we went through a period where, during 2020, for most of the production season, where we were really struggling to produce any larvae at all. And it turns out, based on a fair amount of science so far, basically, the source of polyunsaturated fatty acids, you know, like omega-3 fatty acids, are an example of them, which everybody, you know, covets and tries to include in their diet for health reasons, the sorority of those are phytoplankton. It turns out that when certain phytoplankton species are stressed, they start a process where the polyunsaturated fatty acids are broken down, and they're broken down into a class of compounds called oxylipins, which can be toxic to larvae of other species. And we certainly found that all these things that we were trying in the hatchery that involved oxidizing the seawater made the problem worse. And we wound up being able to, you know, for example, things that we had done for two decades or more, all of a sudden exacerbating the problem and coincident with the pandemic. So it was a rather stressful year, to say the least. But after 2020, 2021... We really didn't see the problem, but then again, last year it occurred right around the same time with our very early spawns, that began. And we went through a bunch more problem solving with that, and we did come up with some techniques that seemed to work and allow us to produce larvae. So I guess my point here is that I'm concerned about some of these more subtle changes that are off everybody's radar. That all of a sudden crop up. And what role, you know, ultimately, greenhouse gases are playing in that, either directly or indirectly. So that's something that does concern me, looking at the industry going forward. I think that's an argument for having some large companies. Because, I will tell you, if we were a small, more mom and pop operation, which we were in the old days, I don't think we would have really been adequately able to address it the way we did. I think it's very likely would put a small operation out of business. Whereas a bigger operation has the resources to put into the problem solving, and problem solving is something that is going to be needed as we go forward. It's always needed, but I think, especially given the challenges we face. I mean, we're barely starting to kiss 1.5 degrees centigrade warming, right? And the levels are not even going to peak in the atmosphere until another year or so. And then the projections for where we're going to land by 2030, 2020 are kind of all over the place. You know, the question is, are we going to be below three degrees centigrade? And if we're seeing what we're seeing at not even 1.5 yet, put on your imagination cap and think about what it'd be like at 2.6 or 7, right?

Speaker 0 | 20:18.464
Yes. Yeah. With all the growth and change in the industry, what's your sense of how the regulatory side is holding up? Are there parts of the system that seem to be working or struggling as things scale up?

Speaker 1 | 20:30.248
I think the big regulatory issue is we have a really good relationship with DMR. They're very good people. They're very confident people. And when things crop up, there's useful negotiations. For example, as the vibrio problem grew, it was the oyster farmers that went to DMR and said, you know, we were concerned because we don't want to have the whole river shut down because of one bad player or whatever. And, you know, there's all kinds of liability issues and so forth. So we all worked together with them and came up with a vibrio control plan that is now being extended beyond the Danboskata River. And I think for the most part, it's been very effective. So... Then the other regulatory part of it is the leasing process. And I feel that DMR has so far been, you know, really fair about the process and resisting threat to it. The problem is, as the interest in aquaculture has grown and the demand for leasing has increased, they've really been unable to keep, you know, I think they made some progress for a while, but that's been reversed from what I understand.

Speaker 0 | 21:43.286
You mentioned earlier how the industry's been growing and getting more professional, and what's it been like trying to find good people to work in the oyster industry?

Speaker 1 | 21:52.335
You know, this is an interesting question because during the pandemic, we did not really experience that. Sometimes you have a hard time finding qualified applicants, but there's a lot of interest in working in aquaculture. A lot of people don't really understand that farming is hard work, and it's not quite as... Romantic a thing as people may expect, but nonetheless. Um, uh, working in, you know, horse manure, pig manure, you're working in oyster manure, right, right, and you're in cold. You know, wet conditions a lot. You know it can be great in the summer, but you know, this time of year it becomes challenging. But but if people, there are people who really like that and are challenged by it and and rise for the challenge. The biggest problem that I feel we've faced is housing. You know, we've had real people who are really qualified, who want to come work here, but you can't find an affordable place to live nearby. So, you know, that's really what I'd have to say about the labor shortage, because I haven't really been involved so much directly in the hiring for a while.

Speaker 0 | 22:55.760
What about competition between the farms? Has that been getting tighter as more people get into the business?

Speaker 1 | 23:01.612
You know, I think there's always competition. The market at times is crowded, but I think the overall trend... For an increasing market, you know, means that there's room for growth. And I feel that Maine oysters, they do command a higher price than oysters from other places because of water quality and the relative temperatures, and so forth. I feel that there is a fair level of collaboration among farms and, you know, collegiality. But in the marketplace, at times, yeah, there are people trying to get rid of their oysters. But what I find heartening is... The rest of the picture beyond that, the fact that the market is growing. And these tend to be things that if you can weather them, you know, they get better.

Speaker 0 | 23:48.475
Right. For people thinking about getting into oyster farming right now, what would be the advice you'd give these folks?

Speaker 1 | 23:55.373
Advice for new oyster farmers. I always have plenty of advice for new oyster farmers. And I think the big thing that I would give out as advice is to start small. It's a high risk business. You want to, you know, every site is different. Different techniques work differently in different places. You want to get an understanding of that without losing your shirt. I can't tell you how many people come in really big. They've done all the calculator, aquaculture and they're, you know, they're out to make a huge amount of money. The reality is, it's farming. It's prone to losses due to forces beyond your control. And so you want to start out small and grow based on your success.

Speaker 0 | 24:38.007
Right. And the difficulty of the financial outlay and waiting for your first return. Exactly.

Speaker 1 | 24:46.914
Yeah, that's exactly right.

Speaker 0 | 24:49.281
Yeah. Bill, this is really amazing. This is so, so terrific. I can't tell you how much I appreciate all of this. What would be the question I need to be asking that I haven't asked?

Speaker 1 | 25:01.390
One thing I didn't talk about, and I will tell it, talk to you a little bit about this. That Atlantic Aqua Farm bought Mooksea Farm, and I don't know how much you know, but you do know that they're owned by, um, the Ontario Teacher Attention Plan. Yeah, yeah, I did, personally that was important, because what? What I love about that is that. The teachers went to the plan managers and said, We want our retirement money to be invested in sustainable food production, which is why they created Atlantic Aquifarm and got into shellfish aquaculture.

Speaker 0 | 25:34.123
That's a great part of the story. This is great, yeah.

Speaker 1 | 25:38.107
It is. And so, you know, for me, as somebody who spent 40 years creating and building this company, it was really a good feeling to know that. any... Profitability, and you know that the future of this could benefit the most noble profession. Yeah, that's great, you know, they're, I feel they're, they're. What I also like about having told them is that the continuity it provided for the company and my employees. Without the opportunity that it's providing for them. You know, they have lateral opportunities to move and to work at different farms. And to, you know, much more opportunity to move up the ladder. I mean, we worked really hard to build a culture and build a system where people could move up, you know, have the possibility to take more responsibility and new jobs going up through sort of a chain of accountability. But Gift has really expanded that in a way that I think benefits the employees tremendously.

Speaker 0 | 26:46.714
Yeah, that's what Jeff was talking about. You know, he's saying that, you know, Now we, with this sort of critical mass, we can begin to offer things that would be very difficult for smaller operations. For employees, that they can now look for insurance. They can kind of, with taking a lot of variables out of their life, they can look to a much more stable employment environment with the benefits. But a smaller plant might not ever be able to offer it.

Speaker 1 | 27:18.406
And that's all true. That's not to say, you know, I think that the American dream is alive and well with these small farms. But I do think that, again, it goes to this idea that there is, because of the nature of the product, it's possible to have these variety of scale companies.

Speaker 0 | 27:40.284
That's, you know, that's funny. For a lot of people who I've talked to, that seems to be a common characteristic. That there is a great deal of sincere, genuine concern for the well-being of employees. Cool, a lot of people discuss that. I think it's really a nice, you

Speaker 1 | 28:02.139
know me, to close the industry. Yeah, exactly, yeah, they really, I think, very truthfully. Yeah, I think it's the kind of people that are attracted to it. It goes back to what I was saying about, you know, but you're... Sort of de facto an environmentalist, right?

Speaker 0 | 28:17.668
Yeah.

Speaker 1 | 28:17.889
And I hate that, yeah, I don't know if you want to put that in the book because it's probably a little woke, right? But I do think there's truth to it.

Speaker 0 | 28:26.535
No, I think I used that in our previous conversation. I think it's a quote in the book.

Speaker 1 | 28:30.379
Yeah.

Speaker 0 | 28:32.605
Yeah. So, Bill, thank you so much.

Speaker 1 | 28:36.746
You're very welcome. I might call you back or shoot at this.

Speaker 0 | 28:44.550
Visit pernacontent.com or maineoysterbook.com, where you can pre-order our new book, Rising Tides, Adapting to Coastal Maine's Future. And while you're there, you can grab a copy of Maine Oysters, Stories of Resilience and Innovation as well. You can also find these books on Amazon, if that's easier, or at most of Maine's independent bookstores. Both books are filled with insights from some very smart folks and some beautiful photography of Maine. They make great gifts for people who love things. Maine. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time. Oh, and if you've got something that you want to share with our listeners, just drop me a line at pernacontent.com. Thanks again.