Embark on a philosophical journey as we converse with Reverend David Capes, Father Mario Arroyo, Rudy Kong, and Rabbi Stuart Federow, exploring God's profound existence and the essence of human belief. We open with the promise of deep introspection into the timeless conversations that have shaped our understanding of faith, art, and philosophy. Our dialogue will leave you with a heightened appreciation for the intersection of these realms as we remember Sir Roger Scruton's legacy and ponder the transformative impact of beauty on society.
Art's evolution and the cultural shift from building to deconstructing forms a centerpiece in our discussion, with memes emerging as modern canvases of expression. The conversation spans from the role of liberal arts post-Enlightenment to Nietzsche's notorious proclamation of God's demise and its aftermath in our cultural fabric. Join us as we dissect how these shifts affect our perception of truth and beauty and what consequences come from a world that prioritizes critique over celebration.
In the contemplative spirit of the transcendentals—Truth, Goodness, and Beauty—we grapple with their divine resonance and the philosophical quandaries they present in the current climate of spiritual warfare. As we honor believers' resilience and Judeo-Christian values' endurance amidst modern challenges, this episode not only enlightens but also inspires. Stay connected with us for next week's episode under the masterful direction of Stuart as we further our quest for understanding in these crucial conversations that shape our human experience.
Embark on a philosophical journey as we converse with Reverend David Capes, Father Mario Arroyo, Rudy Kong, and Rabbi Stuart Federow, exploring God's profound existence and the essence of human belief. We open with the promise of deep introspection into the timeless conversations that have shaped our understanding of faith, art, and philosophy. Our dialogue will leave you with a heightened appreciation for the intersection of these realms as we remember Sir Roger Scruton's legacy and ponder the transformative impact of beauty on society.
Art's evolution and the cultural shift from building to deconstructing forms a centerpiece in our discussion, with memes emerging as modern canvases of expression. The conversation spans from the role of liberal arts post-Enlightenment to Nietzsche's notorious proclamation of God's demise and its aftermath in our cultural fabric. Join us as we dissect how these shifts affect our perception of truth and beauty and what consequences come from a world that prioritizes critique over celebration.
In the contemplative spirit of the transcendentals—Truth, Goodness, and Beauty—we grapple with their divine resonance and the philosophical quandaries they present in the current climate of spiritual warfare. As we honor believers' resilience and Judeo-Christian values' endurance amidst modern challenges, this episode not only enlightens but also inspires. Stay connected with us for next week's episode under the masterful direction of Stuart as we further our quest for understanding in these crucial conversations that shape our human experience.
What's happening here, what it is ain't exactly clear, there's a man with a gun over there Telling me like I know that was the one. Stop children.
Speaker 2:Everybody look what's going down?
Father Mario Arroyo:There's battle lines being drawn, nobody's right if everybody's wrong.
Speaker 1:Young people speak in their minds.
Speaker 5:I need so much resistance from behind and we stop. Hey, what's that sound Everybody. Look what's going down.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:Welcome to a show of faith on AM 1070, the answer when professor, priest, millennial and rabbi discuss events in the news with each other and with you. Uh, no, we don't call it with you.
Dr. David Capes:See, I'm going off my memory because I was looking up Going off, which is a terrible place to go. My memory, you know? Yeah, your memory.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:What memory? Yeah, okay, where are we? What are we doing? Okay, uh, our minister is the Reverend David Capes. He is the director of linear theological library. Great to see you guys tonight Always good to see both of you, grossis. Our priest is Father Mario Arroyo, pastor of Saint Cyril of Alexandria. 10,000 block of Westheimer.
Father Mario Arroyo:I want you to say it in Spanish Mario. Señor Mario Arroyo Arroyo.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:Mario José Arroyo. Mario José Arroyo.
Father Mario Arroyo:Not Mario, mario, mario, that's what he said.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:Mario, Mario José Arroyo, that's what he said Is our priest at the 10,000 block of West Timer at Saint Cyril of Alexandria.
Father Mario Arroyo:For the next three months.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:And then you retire Three months, three months, three months, okay, so I won. So that was when our party so I won a party.
Dr. David Capes:When that happens, you can take me out to dinner.
Father Mario Arroyo:We can take you out to dinner.
Dr. David Capes:We would be happy to do that. Alright, fantastic, yeah, that's great.
Father Mario Arroyo:I need people who love me to take me out to dinner.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:And we would be happy to do that.
Father Mario Arroyo:Did you hear that, linda, in Austin?
Dr. David Capes:Linda's going to take you out, to eat.
Father Mario Arroyo:I'm going to make her take me out, she's going to do it okay.
Dr. David Capes:Alright, good, and you have a great place to study now at your philosophy. And read Karl Rahner. We have Karl Rahner's greatest hits. Do you, we do.
Father Mario Arroyo:What'd you get oh?
Dr. David Capes:I don't know, I'm just sure we have it. If we don't have it, we'll get it for you.
Speaker 9:Where is this? It's a linear theological.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:Oh, linear theological Hello hello oh, rudy you're with us. You're saying it's open, the new building, the new building is open oh. I didn't understand.
Dr. David Capes:Good. Oh yeah yeah, mazel tov. Very good, rudy, good to see you, my friend, our millennial, or hear from you.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:Rudy Kong. He is a master's degree in theology from University of St Thomas and he's galavanting all over South and Central America.
Dr. David Capes:Rudy, you there, oh we ended up dropping him.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:Oh no, you're kidding. Yes, stuart.
Dr. David Capes:Yeah, Stuart, you pressed the wrong button. I didn't touch a button, you come on.
Father Mario Arroyo:You dropped it.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:Watch your language. Yeah, yeah, you know there might be children. Well, let's wait for Rudy.
Dr. David Capes:We're just going to call back into this minute. Stuart, you were saying earlier, let's get Rudy back on, but you were saying earlier about your how to read the Hebrew. I mean 600,000 downloads.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:Six well views yes.
Dr. David Capes:Views. That's what I mean.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:Free and open to the world on YouTube. It's called Hebrew Jump Start. Hebrew Jump Start learn how to read Hebrew in one hour. Wow, and 630 something thousand views in one year 14 months.
Dr. David Capes:That's great. Yes, that's great.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:You go to HebrewJumpStartcom. You can download the handouts that include six pages that you can turn into your own flashcards, print them off and put them on hard card stock.
Dr. David Capes:And why do they need flashcards?
Rabbi Stuart Federow:Practice how do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, practice, practice. Same thing, same thing.
Dr. David Capes:That's how Father Mario learned Latin. Same way, just practice.
Father Mario Arroyo:I don't know any.
Dr. David Capes:Latin. I knew that, Rudy, are you with us? I do in Deo Sprung. I am, oh, great. Welcome back to a show of faith. Thanks for being with us tonight. From Guatemala.
Rudy Kong:I am thank you, very thankful. Thank you guys, for having me on.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:So you were off for a couple seconds. You didn't hear all the nice things we were saying about you.
Rudy Kong:I'm sure Rabbi was just a pure bundle of joy towards me. Absolutely, of course I was.
Dr. David Capes:Why wouldn't?
Rabbi Stuart Federow:I be.
Dr. David Capes:Yeah, hey, well, you're show director. Yeah, you're show director tonight. So that means that you sort of get to call the shots and pay for lunch, pray for dinner, all that kind of stuff. Anyway, go ahead, give us kind of a summary of what you want to chat about this evening.
Rudy Kong:Okay, so we talked last week about the different proofs that we all had for God and how we kind of find this sort of rationale to prove a higher power right. And I've been listening lately to Roger Scruton I don't know if you guys are familiar with.
Father Mario Arroyo:You don't know who Roger Scruton is, David.
Dr. David Capes:Oh, tell us who he is. Me either.
Father Mario Arroyo:David, do you want to tell him already?
Rudy Kong:I mean. So he's passed away, I think in 2020, right, not too?
Father Mario Arroyo:long ago the most leading conservative of all Europe.
Dr. David Capes:Oh really.
Rudy Kong:He was knighted, so he's Sir Roger Scruton and he has. I think there was a doctor of philosophy, but he wrote extensively, gave talks, and so his main thing was essentially beauty, the aesthetics of nature. Man, he's just, he's fantastic. If you guys haven't had a chance to listen to any of his talk, there's so much content of his on YouTube, so I would invite you to check him out.
Dr. David Capes:I'll definitely do that. I'll definitely do that.
Father Mario Arroyo:This S-C-R-U-T-O-N.
Dr. David Capes:Scruton. Yeah, scruton, scruton, okay, roger.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:Scruton.
Dr. David Capes:Yeah, so, and he's British. I take it. I take he's British. Yes, you say he was knighted. So is Sir Roger Scruton. Sir Roger Scruton, yeah, and he is a philosopher of some sorts and talking a lot about beauty and about the significance of beauty. I'm hearing a piano here play Father Mario.
Speaker 2:Well that's the beauty that he's playing music. Oh, is that what it is? He's playing music, okay he's playing.
Dr. David Capes:He's into beauty here tonight playing the little piano. You didn't know, Father Mario started playing piano, did you?
Rudy Kong:I. This is new to me, yeah yeah, he's picked it up now.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:That's to go along with his melodious voice.
Dr. David Capes:In his near retirement. So so what I mean? We talked a lot, like you said, last week about the arguments and I would want to pull back and say we don't have proofs for the existence of God in the same sense that we have proof for a mathematical formula. We have arguments, we have a variety of positions. We talked about the teleological argument, the cosmological argument, the moral argument, the moral argument, the argument from desire, and a variety of things like that, and there's really a lot more of them. But but it's not so much a proof, but it's sort of the weight of evidence. We think that matters at the end of the day. That demonstrates that, in fact, to believe in God is not a senseless thing, it's not a, it's not an illogical thing, and to believe that there is a God who actually has involved himself in creation and is involved and remains involved and has revealed himself to human beings, that's not an illogical kind of thing. So what is it tonight about beauty that you want to talk about?
Rudy Kong:Well, I think this is one of the arguments, as you would say, dr Kess, that I think we many people, I would say, have tried to dedicate their study to Dr or Sir Roger Scrutin is one of these people, and I think the the rhetoric and what he talks about is is fantastic, and one of the things that that he comments a lot is is. So he kind of gives this example right and the things that we find beautiful as human beings right, when we share in the same vision of beauty, they essentially order our community According to those values of of beauty. And so that kind of led me to think okay, well, how do we study beauty today? Or how have we studied beauty in the past? And and well, that's been, I would argue, the liberal arts. You know that it's kind of been known in different figures Across history, but but I mean you could definitely see Winslow, it, and if you read anything from Aristotle Going back to Plato and all these guys, and so I find that that, as, as this sort of enlightenment period happened, you know, starting, I would argue, in the 1700s, the liberal arts were one of the kind of disciplines that took the brunt of this attack, if you will, or is this attack of tradition?
Rudy Kong:It was this sort of dismantling, right. And Frederick Nietzsche famously said you know, god is dead, god remains dead and we have killed him. And thinking about that, you know, he coined this kind of famous insight, and he wasn't just talking about our understanding or culture. Our understanding of God, I mean it really kind of disseminates into everything that this belief system or this value system or this notion of beauty right touches. And so when I look at art and music, and I look at art and music from hundreds of years ago to even 50 years ago or 100 years ago, to what we're doing today, I mean it just seems like it's a system, complete decadence, right, like there's just this infiltration of this kind of desire to destroy the old beauty and reimagine this new world right, and I think that's kind of one of the one of my major problems that I have today is that you know, we're so kind of bent on carrying all this down but we haven't really thought about what's going to take over once that's been torn down right.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:Rudy, I think that there's a perfect example of how popular art I'm not talking like what you'd find in a museum, but popular art has done exactly what you're talking about. I think memes are mainly what you're talking about. Most memes that I've seen, including the ones I love the most, tend to be what destroys. They tend to be sarcasm against something, or they tend to be made with a picture and a you know words around it, a quotation or something that puts something down that insults a normative belief. Okay, and I think that's a perfect example of the change in the use of art, the way people use memes.
Dr. David Capes:Well, before we talk necessarily about art, let's just talk first of all about beauty.
Father Mario Arroyo:Yeah, you know, I want to say something about that Okay. About beauty About art, yes, no. About beauty. Let's acknowledge a big elephant in the room that only humans recognize beauty, Wait a minute. I'm constantly. Only humans can. I'm constantly amazed by, for example, my two dogs. They can mess up everything and they don't recognize anything as being ugly. They don't recognize that they have to be, they don't sit down in front of the sunset and just go wow.
Dr. David Capes:No, they don't recognize beauty.
Father Mario Arroyo:They don't recognize beauty.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:I'm sorry, but I don't necessarily agree with that. Well, I know, but you're wrong. Thank you, our both.
Father Mario Arroyo:look how do I word this nicely on radio we have to go to a break, because I don't want you to say something wrong before we go to a break.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:Okay, thank you for protecting me so well, yeah.
Father Mario Arroyo:Protecting the audience. Please be ready with your earmuffs. This is 1070K and TH. We'll be right back. What did he say?
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Speaker 9:real answer Will somebody please tell me why voter ID laws make it harder for people of color to vote. I'm waiting, I'm serious. I'm going to sit here and hold my breath till I turn blue, waiting for a call that can explain how voter ID laws make it harder for black people to vote.
Speaker 10:I'll wait.
Speaker 12:The Mike Gallagher Show Weekday mornings at 8. Honey on 1070 and FM 103. The answer.
Speaker 2:Is it good to be true?
Father Mario Arroyo:can't take my eyes off of you.
Dr. David Capes:That's a good song to think about beauty.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:Here's the thing we have a great song, and now it's no longer beautiful. I hope it learns the piano.
Father Mario Arroyo:Why are you words left to speak and if you feel like I do, please let me know that it's real.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:You're just too good to be true can't take my eyes off of you Welcome back to a show of faith on Ampence over the answer I just was overcome with the beauty of that song. And we don't have flowers that react to the beauty of music when you play it, they grow better or something we don't have.
Dr. David Capes:We know they respond, but again the whole concept of beauty seems to be a uniquely what Father Marv is saying, a uniquely human. It's one thing you could say. It respond to the light. Plants grow toward the light. Does that mean the plant says, oh, that light is beautiful, I'm going to move over toward it?
Rabbi Stuart Federow:Clearly they're worshiping the sun, because that's the light that they're going to be that draws them to.
Dr. David Capes:Well, there's not necessarily that.
Father Mario Arroyo:But that's the point, that they're responding to a stimuli, but to say, to say that that stimuli is actually the appreciation of beauty, I think that's a little too far.
Dr. David Capes:Go ahead and stew it. One fish argue for it.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:One fish sees another fish and even the article, rudy, that you sent out talks about how the intricacies of their coloring another fish recognizes and says you want to go out for coffee.
Father Mario Arroyo:Yeah, but I don't think it's beauty. I think they're recognizing some stimuli, but I don't know that that's beauty.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:But if we don't know, how can we say we're the only ones who understand beauty?
Father Mario Arroyo:Because we're the only ones who can talk about it and appreciate it, and talk about creating something beautiful.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:Because we don't speak fish language.
Rudy Kong:Rudy rescue us. Well, I would say that one thing, what we're talking about is sort of synchronic melodies, right, frequencies and I go back to the arguments of a sort of transcendence, right, I think this is where it lies it's the fact that you do have nature. Nature does respond in some way, right, I mean, they've done a couple studies where they play particular classical music. But then again, going back to this notion, this is something that is a community. We've all come together and heard this.
Rudy Kong:We've all heard of Beethoven, right, maybe there's some people that really don't like Beethoven, but for the most part, most of us find some aspects of his music appealing, right, we find it the way that the patterns are overlay, the frequency is, the harmonies, all these things, right, they call their attention, they sort of, they sort of transport us to another place.
Rudy Kong:So, and when we talk about the designs, right, when we talk about, for example, the coral fishes or the peacocks, I mean, there's a famous quote that I put in there from Darwin, and he famously said the sight of a peacock's tail, whenever I gaze at it, makes me sick, because within his evolutionary criteria of animals, right, he couldn't explain the utilitarian aspect of this. Now, it's one thing to say oh, this coral fish has a particular pattern and that's all it attracts are made right. But the intricate designs that it overlays, the particular layout, the symmetrical aspect of everything that points to order and that's where we find, I think, value right as a community. And so, whether animals can sense, I think, if you were to ask me, I think that they're in tune with God's creation. So I think it's not that they can or can't, it's like they're always part of it.
Father Mario Arroyo:Yeah, they're part of the design of the creator and so they're recognizing something attractive in the sign of the creator that attracts one to another. Yeah, I would be. It would be like kin to sexual attraction. There are other kinds of attraction, but I agree that the that the perception of beauty, and to look at it as a category, okay, as a category we can recognize the different forms of beauty.
Father Mario Arroyo:Maybe an animal can recognize in its own species or something like that, but to recognize a category of beauty, I got you, that is. That is something only.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:Right.
Father Mario Arroyo:I got that.
Dr. David Capes:Yeah, what about the statement we've often heard beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Rabbi.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:I think it's true.
Dr. David Capes:You think it's true.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:Oh, I know it's true.
Dr. David Capes:Why is that true?
Rabbi Stuart Federow:Well, there are certain sculptures or art pieces or what have you? Modern art or what's the kind of art where it's a I can't think of the name of that kind of art abstract, what is it?
Dr. David Capes:An abstract.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:Thank you, Okay, abstract art. Sorry, I'm not that sophisticated.
Dr. David Capes:It means nothing to me, so so what's wrong with his, what's wrong with his idea there, father Mario?
Father Mario Arroyo:What idea the?
Dr. David Capes:idea that beauty really is in the eye of the beholder. That means that there's no such thing as objective beauty.
Father Mario Arroyo:No, I think it's all subjective. There is such a thing as objective.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:So do I, but I think that's because everybody agrees it's yeah, I think so.
Dr. David Capes:If everybody agrees is beautiful. Therefore, it's not just in the eye of the beholder, there is something objective.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:Every. There's something in the eye of each person who gets to vote, who says it's beautiful Well but?
Dr. David Capes:but that is an individual. It's interesting because you said it's the individual. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder or singular. Yes so that brings everybody down to an individual.
Dr. David Capes:Let me finish, we finish. No, no, no, let me finish. But what Rudy was talking about is the fact that there are there are community definitions of beauty. There may be a person out there that you could find that hates Beethoven Disappells, but by and large, most people are going to say, wow, beethoven. Most people will look at a sunset and say, man, that's beautiful. Somebody else might say, oh, I hate those things. Wish you would stop doing that. Exactly my point. By and large, go ahead, father.
Father Mario Arroyo:Mark, but could it be that the beholder's eye is corrupted?
Dr. David Capes:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Dr. David Capes:Yeah.
Father Mario Arroyo:Because that's what I'm saying, just because beauty is in the eye of the beholder, the beholder might might have a corrupted understanding.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:And all that's saying is that you disagree with their beauty. So for you it's corrupted.
Father Mario Arroyo:No, because you can have, for example, you could have a sadist who says oh, I think pain is beautiful, I love to see it. Now, is that just a subjective thing, or is?
Rabbi Stuart Federow:there a corruption. It's a corruption of humanity. But is that something anybody would even call beauty?
Father Mario Arroyo:I think a person can come to find grotesque things beautiful, and I think that that's a corruption of the eye, of the mortal eye.
Dr. David Capes:And with that we have to go.
Father Mario Arroyo:This is 1070 K, and yet you will be back.
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Father Mario Arroyo:The answer beautiful lady or pretty lady?
Rabbi Stuart Federow:green adelaide green adelaide again beauties in the eye of the beholden but green eyes are great man. Of course they are welcome back to a short faith on the empty set of the answers.
Father Mario Arroyo:Yeah, hey, rudy, where are we going?
Rudy Kong:gentlemen. Okay, well, rabbi, you were. You were speaking of something earlier, and and this is something that Roger.
Rudy Kong:So Roger Scruton mentioned in one of his talks. He said art today is more concerned with breaking tattoos and walls and wall standards. Yeah, it is aggressive with serving, just like, the interior of individuals who have lost the capacity to apprehend reality and beauty, and it's kind of one of those things that makes me think, right, he also mentioned so he's a bit of an anthropologist too and he talked about how previous sort of people made their art as an offering for the gods, for succession, hunting whenever they wanted a particular season to come, like for rain, for example. We look at also in a lot of burial ceremonies, right, when we go bury our dead or people are fast on, we tend to coordinate these tunes and these sarcophagus, and I mean in the most intricate of ways, right, it's like every ancient culture has this right of passage, if you will, into the next world that was directly in tide, to the beautiful objects or things that were part of that process. I mean there are ancient cultures that would even sacrifice versions in this right. I mean this is, this is the things that they value, right?
Rudy Kong:So when we talk about the taboo today, I just find that, instead of focusing on on this sort of transcendent aspect, writers, or when we concentrate, for example, nature, right, and I can find in a fire, observe an acorn, for example, as it, as it transforms into a tree, I can fit and say, wow, look at, look at how these roots sprout, look at how it grows into the soil, look at how it grows, look at how.
Rudy Kong:Or I could, like Father Mario was saying, I can kind of take the posture. It's like, oh, this is gross, look at how it invades, look at how intrusive this is. And so I think there's kind of been this sort of paradigm shift where, instead of art truly transporting us somewhere good, somewhere positive, somewhere into the next world, just kind of has a hyper focus on the irrationality of what this I would call sinful status. Right, I mean, this isn't the perfect world that, at least within the Catholic tradition. Right, I mean this isn't the perfect world that God intended for us. I could say this isn't the ultimate creation in which we had. And so the more we hyper focus on it, the more our arts and our music is just going to sound more and more alien for us that are trying to seek eternal life. I don't know if I'm sounding crazy or no, yeah, I just.
Father Mario Arroyo:I see where you're going, because think about the philosophy that is present right now in almost everything, and that's deconstructing. That's the word deconstructing everything. The word talks about taking everything apart. The problem is that they're not putting anything back together and they're leaving what they destroyed destroyed yes, and so you know I don't.
Father Mario Arroyo:Part of me understands that that some of this I hesitate to say this but some of this may be really Marxist, because if, the more you study Marxist, actually it just marks sociology. It's about the destruction of what it considers to be an oppressive society. But now, with cultural Marxism, it's all. Every, every relationship is thought about in terms of power relationships. So if you say something is beautiful, you are.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:You may be called a colonialist right, because I'm taking it over for myself because you just don't see the beauty.
Father Mario Arroyo:That is maybe in another culture, so I don't know. I think that this whole thing is a lot deeper and it has something to do with the destructiveness. I need some time to think about it, but it has something to do with the destructiveness of sin, that the self-hatred. If you think about what sin does, the human being has entered into a period of self-hatred in his separation from God.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:It's the destructive nature of sin. Yes, yes and it's.
Father Mario Arroyo:It's a self-hatred that finds beauty in ugliness, and and that whole deconstruction is everything that they want. That is beautiful. People are trying to tear apart.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:I don't think they see beauty in anything. I think that they are I don't know what afraid of beauty or think that beauty is oppressive or whatever but, I, don't think they see anything because they're not replacing it with anything.
Father Mario Arroyo:No, they're not. That's the problem.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:But if they replaced it, then you could say they see beauty in whatever they're using to replace it with. They don't do that. They don't see beauty in anything, you can have beauty.
Father Mario Arroyo:for example, if you would have beauty in western music. You don't have to tear down western music to see beauty in a Chinese beauty. Right, Okay, you can say, oh yes, that is beautiful too. But why do you do people insist on tearing the beautiful down? Because I think there's something underneath that, there's a self-hatred there that I think has some kind of an origin in the separation from God. Well, let it go then.
Dr. David Capes:I would see that I need to give it a think a little bit.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:I think, there's definitely something else going on, because the beauty that can be in a society, because a society builds hospitals, okay, they're not, they're destructive, they are deconstructing, and I think that I agree. I think there's something more to everything than just simple I don't know what criticism. I think there's something behind it, some motivation, something.
Father Mario Arroyo:See, even then, looking at the whole biblical thing of Cain killing Abel, could not Cain see the beauty in the sacrifice of his brother?
Rabbi Stuart Federow:No.
Father Mario Arroyo:He could not. Because he was blinded by his jealousy. Okay, but notice the fruit of that, the fruit of that is destruction Right.
Dr. David Capes:In other words, the beauty of that is being spoiled or ruined by the thorn in his eyes.
Father Mario Arroyo:Let's say Everything that exists, that's created by God, is in some way beautiful, and so whenever you rebel against it, what you do is you want to tear it down. If you think about what Satan is all about, right, that's the father of destruction, the father of the destruction of what is real, of what is good, and certainly what is good, yes, of what it's good. But I think everything that God creates is good in and of itself and beautiful in some way, and just the way that when you try to tear that down, there's something sinful about that.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:I don't mind tearing down If the tearing down is to improve. To improve, I agree this has only the motivation of destroying the basics of society and actually what I'm just there for destroying society and after?
Father Mario Arroyo:is the motivation? Good question, okay, the motivation of the destruction, because we are seeking these days to create ugliness and recognizing ugliness as, in a sort of a bizarre way, beautiful. That's what leads me to the full idea of the corruption of the eye of the beholder.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:Right, and I see what you're saying. Okay, and if I were to try which I don't think I succeed in taking an objective view of those people who are most likely to want to deconstruct. I would say most of them, if not high percentage of them, are, let me put it this way, more likely to be atheists than they are to be believers.
Father Mario Arroyo:I agree.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:I think that's what's behind it. I think that there's a yeah pretty good.
Rudy Kong:Can I challenge that real quick? So I would maybe argue that that I think they are confused theists. They are what Confused theists, the ones that are, which I don't know.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:maybe that makes them atheists, but I think well, it makes them susceptible to cult like behavior. It makes them susceptible to going and acting in directions that are unhealthy for themselves and others.
Rudy Kong:And I think, I think I don't want to want to use the term, I don't want to say dangerous, but, like you say, I think those are the people that are most prone to being extremists against an established tradition. You know, it's these people who go out. Think about what's happened, for example, within the Christian community. So tradition has been okay, particularly men hold, or at least within the Catholic Church, or particularly it's just men that are priests. Let's look at that for a second. But there's this sort of group of Catholics that well, at least they identify as Catholics that think that women should also be priests or that couples of the same sex should be allowed to marry, and these are sometimes the biggest proponents of that right.
Rudy Kong:You don't see very many, I would argue. I mean, you don't see a lot of atheists saying oh yeah, you know, let the gay people marry in the church. It's, it's, no, it's. It's these sort of confused theists I would, or I don't even know what to even call them right. Well, it's corrupted individuals from our perspective. But these are sort of the people that are most engaged in trying to corrupt the tradition, if you will, to kind of fit fit their, their, their new perceived needs on.
Father Mario Arroyo:Let me ask this we need to go to a break now. But what are the transcendence? Goodness, truth and beauty, those are the transcendentals. They're called transcendentals. Why are they transcendentals? And they're transcendentals because they are the quality of created being. They are the quality of the God who created them. So let's go and we come back. Let's talk about the linkage between the truth, the true, the good and the beautiful. This is K and T, h 1070, and we'll be right back. Well, it's three o'clock in the morning.
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Speaker 2:I can't wait forever.
Father Mario Arroyo:Even though you want me to.
Speaker 1:You know why You're going to tell us why?
Father Mario Arroyo:Yeah because time won't let me.
Rudy Kong:It's time, won't let me.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:And time won't let us wait for the end of that song either. Welcome back to our show Faith on Ameson 7 AM.
Dr. David Capes:That's a good song. I like that, rudy, wait a minute. We're going to go back to Rudy at this point, right. Yes. Okay, rudy, you started this whole thing. I think the title you gave it was something like the Death of the Liberal Arts.
Rudy Kong:I think it kind of ties into what Father Maro was saying at the end. So I think he said truth, goodness and beauty and I have written down truth, kindness and beauty.
Dr. David Capes:Yeah, that's right.
Father Mario Arroyo:The transcendentals are truth, goodness and beauty. Truth, goodness and beauty.
Dr. David Capes:Now, what do you mean by transcendental? I don't think that has anything to do with going to the dentist. That was Stuart's yeah blame me for it.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:If you're a peed, you must have liked it.
Father Mario Arroyo:Transcendentals are the property of being. That gives you the sense of that the being was created by something greater than itself.
Dr. David Capes:They transcend.
Father Mario Arroyo:Truth, goodness and beauty. Everything that exists, that was created by God is true, it is good, it is beautiful. Okay, that's why in Genesis, when God finishes, he says it is good it is very good.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:Would you say that another way of saying that is what lasts? Yes, what lasts is truth, what lasts is beauty. What? Lasts is true, yes, yes, I would agree with that. That's how I see transcendent transcendentism.
Father Mario Arroyo:That's when you see transcendence.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:Yes, that's what I meant. That's why I said you weren't listening, all right. So what transcends what lasts is truth, beauty and goodness. Truth, good and beauty.
Father Mario Arroyo:Those are the properties of creation.
Dr. David Capes:Yes, and I like the idea that it's interesting because it's in the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible called the Septuagint. The term we often give it is when God says okay, it was evening in this morning, you know, it's day one. And God saw that he had made and behold, it was Kalaan, which means more like beautiful.
Dr. David Capes:Not good, well good but it's good in its beauty. The focus is more upon the beauty, the beauty of it. Again, God sees it and God says it's beautiful, because seeing and beauty are sort of tightly wound right, yes, but that doesn't mean it's not good, in that it works and it functions.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:But my question is when we say it was good, we can argue about it. But in this instance we can argue about it, but in many instances, when we say it's good, we're giving it a moral attribute. We could be Is that word in the Greek. Does that word include a moral?
Dr. David Capes:No, the Greek word for that is agathos, Agathos I didn't hear the first one Kalaan or kalas.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:Not related.
Dr. David Capes:Not related, two different words.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:But when it says and God saw that it was good, I think there's a moral judgment. It could be, but by and large the word used for the good in the.
Dr. David Capes:Greek is agathos.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:Yeah, but what do they know?
Dr. David Capes:But it's interesting because that's how they, three centuries before the birth of Jesus, how they were referencing and thinking about that that this creation that God has made is beautiful. Now, it's beautiful because it looks good, but it's also beautiful because it works, David. I mean it's like saying, you know, I don't think that part works. You know, or you know that part's good, you know, or something in an engine, that part's no good. That means that's a different thing than being beautiful or good looking or truth or anything like that. It means it functions, it does what it's supposed to do.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:I do get confused sometimes between Roman and Greco, between Greek and Roman. Could that be because in the in Greece, in the culture of Greece, beauty was so important, or is that more Roman?
Dr. David Capes:Well, it was very important in, in, in, in Greece.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:So is that why they would accent or emphasize the beauty? It's a good question.
Dr. David Capes:I don't know, I'd have to, I'd have to kind of apply into that a little bit, a little bit more. But I think the whole idea of beauty and and sort of an idealized sense of what beauty is, that there was, there was an objective value, value place on the beauty and it was beauty that everybody could agree on it, would it would?
Dr. David Capes:you know a lot of these statues that you see from the ancient world that basically they said to the, to the artists now I want you to put the body of Arnold Schwarzenegger and put my head on that. You know kind of stuff. In other words, they're idealized. What? Oh, I'm just Arnold's it. Big strong, oh no, no, no, no, no. You know, big strong guy.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:That's what they did, yeah they did that, they would put their names. They would put their names, yeah, or their faces on them.
Dr. David Capes:That was, you know, like Arnold. Schwarzenegger.
Dr. David Capes:You just say your body, your head, your head on Arnold Schwarzenegger. What did I say? My body, your body? Sorry, that's not what I meant. I mean my head, my head and the body of somebody you know strong man, you know muscle man, kind of thing. So anyway, that was very common because it was an ideal that you were trying to achieve. You were trying to say this person met the ideal and not many people of course got statute of beauty, but also statesmanship, and all that was viewed to go together. Right, because if a person was a great?
Dr. David Capes:statement statesman or great general, then they clearly must have had a great body.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:You know, remember a little bit of art history and they could sing as well. Yes, and a little bit of art history is that. That's why some of them were on horses, because it meant something. Ah, the art meant something.
Dr. David Capes:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:They I forgot something about it Like if their foot was on a ball. You know, something meant something else. There was a lot of meaning within the context. Oh sure.
Dr. David Capes:Yeah, yeah, yeah, very much. Art is very repetitious in that way, right Kind of thing. So I went back and I looked at the liberal arts, because he mentioned the liberal arts and I remember the back back in the Middle Ages. This really has roots deep back into Greece as well. There was, there were seven subjects that you studied for, to study liberal arts, and they were called the Trivium, the three and the quadrivium, which is the four. The Trivium was grammar, was logic and rhetoric. Those are the three things Grammar, grammar, so it is speak well, to know the rules of language and to for it to work. And then logic is obviously a matter of just figuring, being able to sort things out, yeah, but then rhetoric is the argument itself and the ability to persuade. Then there was the quadrivium, which was arithmetic, astronomy, music and then geometry. It's interesting because there was no, no visual arts there, but it was music because everybody could sing or the idea was or listen and appreciate.
Dr. David Capes:Not everybody could had the equipments and the, the, the means by which to be a sculptor or the painter or that kind of thing.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:But see, that's that to me. That goes to what I think of when I think of the word art. You know, people, that was at art and I think that art is when the artist can put in their artwork a piece of their soul, that when another person sees it or experiences it, it touches their soul.
Dr. David Capes:You're not talking about sort of Everything. All Stole put Harry Potter and putting part of your soul.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:Literature no, seriously literate no, no, not like that, thank you.
Dr. David Capes:The Horcrux. The Horcrux? No, that's not what I meant.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:But I think it's souls touching another, one soul touching another soul through their artwork. That good art is when the majority, or many people, when they look at it or read it or whatever, get touched by that creator's soul. That's how I look at art.
Father Mario Arroyo:It's interesting because I found a website that this is just a very interesting statement. God would not be God if he did not possess all of his attributes in the simplicity and perfection of his essence. God is beauty. He is beauty himself. He is beautiful. The reason why we gravitate towards beauty is because we're created in his image and likeness.
Dr. David Capes:So we gravitate toward the beauty.
Father Mario Arroyo:We gravitate towards the beautiful, because God in himself is beautiful.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:And so it's God's expression of God's soul through beauty that touches our soul, which comes from God. Yes, yeah, okay, I could preach that.
Dr. David Capes:Me too, and you will. Now, rudy, what are you preaching these days?
Rudy Kong:Oh Lord.
Rabbi Stuart Federow:That's it. That's the preaching.
Dr. David Capes:Oh Lord, oh Lord, You're preaching to the Lord.
Rudy Kong:You know, I know we only have about a minute left and I just wanted to do something. That got me thinking about all these twos is that I think, whenever you I mean this is the way I see it in many aspects spiritual warfare that we have to kind of contend with on a daily basis, as much as the physical and emotional and everything else. And so as a culture and as believers, I think we there's some how do I say comfort to take in the sort of caliber of our counterparts, even though that we may not think that they're good or that they are correct, you know, this kind of relentless attack on our Judeo-Christian values. I mean in something and maybe I'm crazy to think about it it's a bit of a compliment. It's complimented with the fact that this ideology has had a century and millennia. So I think that we should keep preaching to the Lord. It's interesting, that's an interesting observation.
Dr. David Capes:I wish we. Maybe we ought to take that up on another occasion. But you're right, you don't attack something that's being completely unsuccessful or insignificant.
Father Mario Arroyo:Who is show director next week?
Dr. David Capes:That would be Stuart.
Father Mario Arroyo:Okay, okay.
Rudy Kong:This is.
Father Mario Arroyo:KNTH 1070 and know that you are listening to us and we'll see you next week.
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