Congratulations pour in for Rudy, our millennial voice, as he steps into the exciting new chapter, sparking a rich discussion about the intersections of love, culture, and the importance of family in the journey to matrimony. But our conversation doesn't stop at the altar; we wade through the deeper waters of how money, religion, and ethics intertwine in our daily lives.
Prepare to have your perceptions challenged as we dissect the oft-misunderstood phrase about money being the root of all evil, setting the record straight on its true meaning and implications.
With Father Mario, Rabbi Stuart Federo and Dr. David Capes enriching our dialogue, we navigate the moral landscape where money acts as a mirror to our character. Jewish wisdom and the teachings of Jesus anchor our debate, examining money as a tool rather than a goal.
The concept of 'tainted money' comes under our microscope as we ponder the dilemmas faced by religious institutions when donations come from questionable sources. These ethical mazes push us to contemplate the very nature of charity and the fine line between pragmatism and purity in our financial dealings.
Our episode culminates in an exploratory deep dive into biblical interpretations and their relevance in modern-day economic concepts.
We grapple with the tale of Cain and Abel and the complexities of favor in divine offerings, while also tackling contemporary issues like the Second Amendment and its relation to firearm technology.
This episode is an intriguing blend of ancient texts and current affairs, a thought-provoking journey that will leave you with more questions than answers about the true cost of money.
Join us for a conversation that promises to enlighten, challenge, and inspire.
Congratulations pour in for Rudy, our millennial voice, as he steps into the exciting new chapter, sparking a rich discussion about the intersections of love, culture, and the importance of family in the journey to matrimony. But our conversation doesn't stop at the altar; we wade through the deeper waters of how money, religion, and ethics intertwine in our daily lives.
Prepare to have your perceptions challenged as we dissect the oft-misunderstood phrase about money being the root of all evil, setting the record straight on its true meaning and implications.
With Father Mario, Rabbi Stuart Federo and Dr. David Capes enriching our dialogue, we navigate the moral landscape where money acts as a mirror to our character. Jewish wisdom and the teachings of Jesus anchor our debate, examining money as a tool rather than a goal.
The concept of 'tainted money' comes under our microscope as we ponder the dilemmas faced by religious institutions when donations come from questionable sources. These ethical mazes push us to contemplate the very nature of charity and the fine line between pragmatism and purity in our financial dealings.
Our episode culminates in an exploratory deep dive into biblical interpretations and their relevance in modern-day economic concepts.
We grapple with the tale of Cain and Abel and the complexities of favor in divine offerings, while also tackling contemporary issues like the Second Amendment and its relation to firearm technology.
This episode is an intriguing blend of ancient texts and current affairs, a thought-provoking journey that will leave you with more questions than answers about the true cost of money.
Join us for a conversation that promises to enlighten, challenge, and inspire.
I know not everybody has got a body like you, but I gotta think twice before I give my heart away. And I love all the games you play, because I play them too. Oh, I need some time off from that emotion Time to get my heart back on the floor. Welcome to A Show of Faith, where professor, priest, millennial and rabbi discuss theology and philosophy and anything else of interest in religion. If you have any response to our topics, any comments regarding what we say, we would love to hear from you. Email us at ashowoffaithathotmailcom. Ashowoffaithathotmailcom. You can hear our shows again and again by listening pretty much anywhere podcasts are heard. Our priest is Fr Mario Arroyo, pastor of St Cyril of Alexandria in the 10,000 block of Westheimer. Good to see you. Our professor is David Capes, a Baptist minister and the director of the I'm sorry, director of David, what's the new title?
Speaker 2:Director of Academic Programming. Director of Academic Programming.
Speaker 1:Director of Academic Programming at Lanier Theological Library.
Speaker 2:I expect you to get that right from here on out.
Speaker 1:I will try to remember. I have to write it down and then get it into my text. Director of Academic Programming at Lanier Theological Library. Yes, okay, and Rudy Kong is our millennial. He's a systems engineer, has his master's degree in theology from the University of St Thomas and he has very recently engaged to be married. Poor fool, thank you.
Speaker 4:Do you know, rudy, that marriage is a three-ring circus? Did you know that? Tell me, the first ring is the engagement ring free ring circus. You know that? Uh, the first ring is the engagement, then there's the marriage ring, the wedding ring and, last but not least, is the suffering all well.
Speaker 5:Well, I'm definitely and need in the court in the very broke ring.
Speaker 1:Father, you cynic you.
Speaker 4:Celibacy forever.
Speaker 1:I am Rabbi Stuart Federo, rabbi Emeritus of Congregation Sha'ar HaShalom at Clear Lake Area of Houston, texas. Jim Robinson is our producer and engineer. He's the author of the book I Am With you Always, matthew 2820, a daily devotional. Miranda is our board operator and together Jim and Miranda and Corey if he comes back next month, they help us sound fantastic.
Speaker 2:Yes, indeed, yes indeed. Well, congratulations, rudy gosh. You have kept this secret from us all this time. How did you manage to do it?
Speaker 5:us all this time. How'd you manage to do it? I just practice meditative contemplation and silence, especially among these minds. I mean, honestly, it's been something that's been. We've been going out for a bit, almost two years. Oh, come on, Rudy, you've been holding back on us Two years I did invite two guys, yeah, and yeah, we just kind of, I guess, I just kind of felt that the compatibility, the, I guess, the closeness, the relatableness to this person, and I felt that.
Speaker 1:So is she in Guatemala or is she in Houston? She's in Guatemala, yeah, oh, okay, yeah, yep, ah, love yeah.
Speaker 5:Love springs eternal. Yeah, Love, Love springs eternal. Yeah, it's stressful. Everything that has to kind of go down, there's just so much. There's legal things, there's coordination, there's just a lot of family politicking.
Speaker 1:Of course there is Welcome to married life. You marry the family. You don't marry your spouse. You marry the spouse's family. Yeah, my grandpa always used to say that, yeah, and believe me, it's true.
Speaker 2:Well now, who's going to be your best father?
Speaker 5:My best father, Jesus.
Speaker 2:You mean father? No, no, I mean Father Mario. I mean he's a father.
Speaker 4:He's going to get married in Guatemala? Oh, I'm sure yeah.
Speaker 5:Well, we're actually getting married. So she's from Brazil, so I'm going to be getting married in Brazil.
Speaker 1:There we go.
Speaker 4:Oh, in Brazil. Okay, Are we ever going to meet? Yes, actually yeah.
Speaker 5:In Brazil. There we go. Oh in Brazil, okay In Brazil. Are we ever going to meet? Yes, actually, yeah, I hope so very soon. She actually practices a little bit of theology for everybody, but I don't know if all of us are familiar with the Maronite rite. Yeah, a little bit with the Maronite right. Yeah, a little bit, yeah. So it's just, she's one of the Lebanese churches, if you will down there, and it's Wait, so she's.
Speaker 1:Maronite and you're not, so it's an interfaith marriage.
Speaker 5:No, she's still Catholic Rabbi.
Speaker 1:Okay, alright.
Speaker 5:Yeah, so it's going to be at a church down there in St Charbel, and it's actually a bit of a story how she became Catholic. She wasn't baptized as a child. Anyway, maybe she could tell the story one day, but it's quite beautiful.
Speaker 1:Or next time you're in Houston, you'll tell us the story.
Speaker 5:Yes, yeah, I'd be happy to.
Speaker 1:All right, tonight we're supposed to be talking about a topic of religion which you know we could actually talk about marriage, but not tonight. And it's my turn to be show director and I look through everything. The only thing I found is that we talked about money in terms of false gods. You know, wealth and money is pursued as a like a god that we pursue.
Speaker 2:I got my dollar through Exactly, but I don't think we ever talked.
Speaker 1:I got my dollar tree sorted Exactly, but I don't think we ever talked about money. In and of itself, okay, the lust for money is the root of all evil. It doesn't say money is the root of all evil. It says the lust for money is the root of all evil, every single.
Speaker 2:Where does it say that I'm sorry what? Where does it say that? Where does it say that I'm sorry what?
Speaker 1:Where does it say that? Where does it say that, yeah, where does it say that?
Speaker 2:Where, where Isn't that?
Speaker 1:Christian New Testament.
Speaker 2:No, no, it is so. You mean you're quoting our testament now?
Speaker 1:Well, I tried. I mean you're?
Speaker 2:the ones I'm speaking to, so I'm trying to speak in the language you'll understand. Well, I just want to make sure that I understand that you're quoting that as authoritative at this point.
Speaker 1:Yes. Well, no, it's not authoritative. It's a very popular saying, but most people think money is the root of all evil. And as I understand it, it's not. It's the lust for money is the root of all evil. Yeah, you're exactly right, but every single religious institution, every charitable institution, runs on money. So money, whether we like it or not, we don't want it to be an idol, we don't want it to be the. You know what's the Tillich phrase? The absolute concern, the ultimate concern, but the ultimate concern. But on the other hand, you go to eat anything. It's an important concern.
Speaker 1:Money, okay, there's a misconception of tithing and charity. Uh, people, actually, you know, picked up the bible and read it. They, you know, you know 10% of the crops, only three or four crops, only in certain years, and for the Levites and priests it's not 10% of your income, it's not supposed to go to the synagogue or the church. Okay, that is tzedakah, that is badly translated as charity. But tithing is actually only certain crops if you're a farmer, and only in certain years if you're a farmer. So there's a lot of misconceptions about money and how we handle it and to whom we owe it and this sort of thing. So I thought tonight we would talk about that. Okay, sounds good to me. All right, so Direct the conversation.
Speaker 1:I'm intending to do that. So how do we? Oh, in Judaism, which I know we brought up before many months ago, I think, there's a saying that you can understand a person's character by koso, kiso and kaaso. That's the hebrew, and what that means is you can understand or get insights into a person's character based on how they uh, uh their, their pocket. Uh, which basically means their money, their cup, which means how they handle their liquor, and ka'aso, which means how they handle their anger. But clearly, in that is how they handle the money, and how we handle money, how we handle the people to whom we owe money, people that we buy things from also are insights into character.
Speaker 4:So does your religions have anything to say?
Speaker 2:on this issue, david, go for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, david, yeah, sure, I mean by all means. Yeah, I mean I would agree with you that there are certain kind of character measures that are associated with this, but money itself, I mean, jesus actually talks a lot about money in his Sermon on the Mount, and other places as well, but that money itself is not the end. It is very often a means to an end. What we've done is, I'm afraid, in our society, and in the West in particular, we've made the grabbing of money, the making of money, the keeping of money, the investment of money, the wealth itself and becoming rich is kind of the end itself, and it becomes the measure of character or the measure of status that a person has in society. What's? What is?
Speaker 2:it. Well, yeah, I mean, yeah, any. Anyone who, over a lifetime, you know, makes a significant amount of money and they're able to invest it or keep it or buy things with it, that shows that they are people of money, et cetera, et cetera. You know, when I think about Jesus' own practice and the practice of the disciples, they lived very frugally, they lived off of the generosity of others. They did make a living, but they were fishermen and they were carpenters. These were forms of living that were not at the top end of the earning spectrum. I guess we'd say they're people who are working with their hands. They're working with their energies and their lives.
Speaker 2:There's nothing in the ancient world kind of equivalent to what we know today as a white collar and those kind of jobs. Exactly, even to be a physician in those days was not to be a person of wealth. You could be a slave and you could be a physician, for example. So your status very often was determined by the way you're able to make money, and so the Christian faith says that we should value these things only in as much as they are able to provide for us a livelihood that allows us to live faithfully and dutifully to God, so we can care for those things inordinately and care for those things ultimately, which is what you referred to earlier.
Speaker 2:If that's what we think about most of the time, if that's what we think about most of the time, if that's what we work toward most of the time, if that's where most of our energy goes, then what we're doing is we are and I hate to say it going back to kind of an idolatry of will over these things and in the hopes that that will form for us status and in the hope that in that status that we might be honored among people.
Speaker 2:So it's a question of honor, it's a question of shame, right, and so in these are honor shame cultures, and even though we don't live in a thoroughly thoroughgoing honor shame culture, like some of the, some of the nations of Africa and the Middle East and other places around the world, we still look at these things in terms of that, and so at some level those are very important. So the idea of money itself is not the end. It is a means to an end right, end, right it is, and that end is not to live a life of status, but it'll be a life of faithfulness, and that life of faithfulness can be lived very modestly, as Father Mario was alluding to and others have alluded to on the show, in terms of more of a monastic life, a celibate life, a life of living totally for God, or it can have to do with other things as well. So, anyway, I yield the floor to my Catholic brothers at this point.
Speaker 1:We do have to go to a break Before we go. When we come back, I have a question to both of you and Rudy about tainted money.
Speaker 4:Interesting. Okay, this is KNTH 1070, the answer, and we are going to make some money.
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Speaker 12:The Answer I love this song. He was born in the summer of his 27th year, coming home to a place he'd never been before. He left yesterday behind him. Who might say he was born again? Who might say he found the key for every door? When he first came to the mountains, his life was far away, on the road, hanging by a song, but the string's already broken and he doesn't really care. It keeps changing fast and it don't last too long With the Colorado Rocky Mountain High. I've seen it rain and fire.
Speaker 1:Welcome back to A Show of Faith. On AM1070 Answers. So apparently Rudy's having trouble hearing us.
Speaker 4:Apparently, we're not on the air.
Speaker 5:Oh no, we have calls from people saying that they can't hear. I can hear you guys, just fine.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right.
Speaker 4:I don't know.
Speaker 1:Nothing we can do about it, all right, I don't know Nothing we can do about it, all right. While we're talking about money good and bad so there's a passage in the Bible, in the five books of Moses I believe it's Leviticus but it specifically states that you are not allowed to accept, in the service of the tabernacle, the temple, the price of a prostitute, in other words, the income made by a prostitute. The idea being is that money itself can be tainted. So my question is Dead air.
Speaker 4:What Dead air?
Speaker 1:Dead air. We're not on. We are not on the air. Yeah, still have to make the show though, okay. So my question is the following If somebody came to you for your church, for the churches, and said I have $100,000 to give to you, but you have very, very strong reason to believe, with evidence, that the guy wanting to give you the hundred thousand dollars is a gangster, can you take it? Can you accept the money, knowing that it's ill-gotten gain?
Speaker 4:mario, no, I, I didn't know you were talking to me.
Speaker 1:Anybody.
Speaker 4:Well, no, I would not take it, but we were just talking about that and you know, I guess, when you say, see, I never have made a distinction, this is not to change my mind, but I have never made a distinction between the temple and the people of God.
Speaker 1:Right right.
Speaker 4:Because in Catholic theology the people of God are the temple.
Speaker 1:Are the what the temple?
Speaker 4:Right. So you know. My only problem was if you tell them you can't use it for anything, holy what are you going to use it for evil? And so I guess you know you said something like the Boys Club or the YMCA. It's still a good thing.
Speaker 1:So if the man that you said I can't take your money for the church said to you, what should I do with the money, what would you tell him?
Speaker 4:I would tell him to give it to a good cause. But I was see I would be making that decision based on the popular perception. But I would not be making that decision on on on a theological basis, only on the public perception that that church was using tainted money.
Speaker 2:I have a question. Let me change the imagery here. Let's say someone is the president of a drug company and they make a whole, whole, whole lot of money and you discover that they have been um, uh, making drugs that have been injuring people, and they knew it all along, and yet they still made buku and buku of money.
Speaker 1:can you take the money, then I don't believe you can, because it's ill-gotten gain. It is gain based on lies. It's gain based on being harmful to the people that you're supposed to be supporting.
Speaker 2:Sometimes you don't know that for five years. No, no, no.
Speaker 1:Yes, but if you don't know it, then you're going to take it. I'm saying if the knowledge is there, then most likely religious institutions would probably turn it down.
Speaker 4:The only problem you have, I have here, and it's not a real big problem, but it's a problem and that is that I would challenge you in any way to find anyone who's made any money, who is totally untainted.
Speaker 1:Who's totally untainted?
Speaker 2:I mean again, go back to the worker of the carpenter, go back to the stonemason, go back to I'm not talking about people that make, I'm not thinking about people who make just a modest amount of income, I'm thinking about those who oftentimes from huge amounts of income or very large. I mean, is any of that money untainted? I would argue that it is. I would argue that most people are making money and they're making modest amounts of money, and that modest amount of money, whether it's made at $7 an hour or $15 an hour or $30 an hour, is most often made in a righteous way, a legitimate way. But what about all of those for whom and what Father Mario said is anything untainted at that point?
Speaker 4:See, I don't believe anything ultimately is untainted. I think everything is somewhat.
Speaker 1:But you would say that there are degrees of taintedness, if that's a word. That is correct, yes, Okay, that is correct.
Speaker 4:The question then becomes to what degree you know, do you do it?
Speaker 1:If a guy is known to be an adulterer, okay, women on the side. If a guy is known to be an adulterer, okay, women on the side, but the way in which he makes his money is legit. Are you saying that his adultery makes the money tainted? No, okay.
Speaker 4:No, like, for example. Let me give you an example. I think this is correct. If I'm wrong, I apologize, but people say don't go to Starbucks because Starbucks supports abortion and there's lots of different companies who support abortion. Don't pay your taxes, because your taxes support abortion. Okay taxes I can understand, okay, but Starbucks, you know you go to Starbucks you patronize a company that's giving part of your money to abortion.
Speaker 1:You mean, they support companies that do abortions or something? Is that what?
Speaker 4:you mean, yeah, they give donations to abortifiers, abortifacients, anymore you can't tell who owns what company. That's exactly what I'm saying, and what I'm saying is that we've got to go to a break, and we'll continue to talk about this when we come back.
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Speaker 8:What should we all going to do? What should they do? One thing don't listen to Joe Biden. He is always, always wrong. David Cameron, always wrong. Both of them mired in weakness, appeasement and fear of escalation. And I don't believe we have serious people in the White House. We have people who have no idea how to get out of this.
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Speaker 1:The Answer it's the one where she's a welder, but I can't think of the name of it. Whatever, welcome back to a show of faith. I'm Amp 107, the Answer she's a welder. She falls in love with the owner of the steel company. It's not Footloose, it's the the other one. I get the titles mixed up anyway. Welcome back to a show of faith on m107. The answer we're talking about money and we're talking about tainted money and we're talking about can you accept money if you believe the money came from the ill-gotten gain and David?
Speaker 2:You're talking specifically about can a church or charitable institution.
Speaker 1:Religious institutions specifically.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, if a person is cutting the yard of a person who is getting their money through some ill-gotten gain, they can certainly accept that money for the services they've rendered. That is cutting the grass Absolutely. They may not know, they might not know what, and I guess that's part of the issue. What is it? We know about that money and Father Mario made the statement is any money completely not ill-gotten, free of taint?
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Rudy's the guy with all the money in the room.
Speaker 1:He's got enough money to get married.
Speaker 5:I know I'm going to be in the street next month, don't worry, you know what I was, I've been. I'm going to be in the street next month, don't worry, you know what I was. I've been Going back to what you said, dr Cairns. Let's say there's this super wealthy man and that he was manufacturing this drug, that you knew that. He knew that there was something wrong with it, right, but maybe the warehouse guy who worked 20 levels down didn't, and maybe he performed his job ethically. He woke up every single day at 5 am, was on the job, did his job, went above and beyond. He worked at that company for 20 years. He put his kids through college, you, so. So there's there's there's kind of levels of responsibility that come with within an organization and thus absolutely with that level of, and, with that level of responsibility, also merits, uh, of course, increased wages.
Speaker 5:Right, I mean, it's why ceos make so. It's because, most of the time, they're the ones that are responsible for the track, if you will, of where the company's headed. I will say this, though If you look at all the great companies let's call them great all those super huge companies that we have today the Apples, the Microsofts, the Coca-Colas oh my goodness, there's just so many like DuPont Chemical, pfizer, I mean holy moly, just to name a few. There's just so many stories of them doing so many unethical things.
Speaker 5:Especially in their beginnings, like Microsoft and Bill Gates, so, as a culture, do we hold our responsibility to completely boycott them? Maybe you know, but have they become so entrenched in our culture? I mean, can you imagine Apple right? I could probably tell you a couple things about Apple. They're told the way that they push certain app developers aside. I mean, it's not necessarily ethical some of the way they treat people, anyways. So does that mean that everybody should go and go trade their phone for Samsung? Well, I could probably tell you some few things about Samsung too, and their executive board and they're not very ethical either, right?
Speaker 5:So what do we do? Right? It's kind of like we're left with this technological, to use this particular example. We're left with this kind of technological development now, which we've become dependent on as a culture, and to get rid of it would absolutely Harm, harm our society.
Speaker 5:Harm, yeah, I mean. So what is the greater? It's kind of a thing of a greater good or greater loss, if you will. And how many jobs are at stake there, how many engineers, designers. So it's kind of what Father Martu was saying about Starbucks. It's like, okay, I'm not going to go to Starbucks because they support, you know, but maybe that barista, I don't know, they do great coffee and they're not really concerned with go ahead, frank.
Speaker 1:They're not concerned with the morals and ethics. Starbucks is a national thing. Okay, but I would be willing to bet there are plenty of people listening to our show right now who know of a business where they feel they got mistreated somehow as a moral, ethical issue and are boycotting them themselves. I'm never going to go back to that restaurant. I'm never going to go back to that dealership.
Speaker 5:Look, I've worked in a couple different companies and look I'm not going to go back to that dealership. Look, I've worked in a couple different companies and look I'm not going to say their names. But man people cut corners all the time. It just happens. People want to work fast. Sometimes you're on deadlines. You want to push costs down. Sometimes bad decisions get made, and that's the reality.
Speaker 5:And that's kind of the ugly side of money, or this greedy pursuit of money. Right, because we want to make our numbers right, especially if they're publicly traded companies. Right, you want to keep showing growth, you want to keep showing your numbers going up? Okay, well, what does that entail? You want to drive down costs, you want to be innovative or you want to sell more of this. And the way you go about I mean look, not that I've been involved, but some of these sales kind of environments, the things that they do to get sales and close deals is just utterly despicable. I mean where some of this stuff happens, I mean in clubs and with alcohol.
Speaker 1:It's not that long ago that a certain bank started making not deposits but accounts for people who never signed on the dotted line, because the more accounts that the salespeople made, the more money they made. So you could have accounts in your name that you never signed for.
Speaker 5:They got caught and they got caught doing that. Going back to your question, and maybe this is also for Father Mark, and even for Dr Caves too, and for you, rabbi, at y'all's congregation or charities.
Speaker 1:I mean, there's a certain due diligence that, of course, that we need to do when accepting money, right, because you don't want to be taking money from that kind of feed off of the practices Right, but truth be told, rudy, truth be told, starbucks isn't going to come to my synagogue and say, oh, we'd like to make a donation, okay, but on the other hand, you know, I don't think a Roman Catholic church would have a I don't know a party and have it funded by Starbucks either. So there's circumstances under which, yeah, religious institutions are going to say no, no.
Speaker 5:No, but look, I tell you what if Starbucks tomorrow came to, let's say, an orphanage, a Catholic orphanage, and they said we're going to give you a million dollars, you think they would say no, I think they would accept it.
Speaker 1:No, I think they would say no. Especially no, rudy, I think they would say no. Especially no, rudy, I think they would say no. Especially if, in this case, starbucks said we want it named the Roman Catholic Starbucks Orphanage.
Speaker 1:Oh well, that's In other words if they wanted to hit people over the head with the idea that their company should get the credit for it, then, yes, I think the church would say no, feel free to jump in and correct me, mario no, I, I see to me all of this is a question of degree, right?
Speaker 4:it's not unfortunate, but true it's not a matter of black and white it it's not a black and white matter. It's a question of degree.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 4:I have a joke.
Speaker 1:Is this a money joke or not?
Speaker 4:Kind of.
Speaker 4:Can I do it? Yeah, why not? A guy came into my church the other day and he said, Father, I want a funeral for my dog. I want a what? Want a funeral for my dog. I want a what A funeral for my dog. Okay, and I said, Sir, we don't do funerals for dogs. And the guy said, oh gosh, you know I wanted them. And I said Maybe you can go down the street to another church, to another Catholic, but we don't do funerals for a dog. Maybe some other churches will. And he says, well, okay, I was going to make a $500,000 donation for this funeral. And I said, well, sir, you never told me the dog was Catholic.
Speaker 1:Right, right, that's funny. Yes, but as soon as you started the joke I knew where you were headed right, but you wouldn't say that no, of course not no, let me tell you what I do say.
Speaker 4:What I do say at congregate for mine, because I was thinking about this. We're talking about secular money, yes, and what I do at my congregation is, before we're going to ready to receive an offering, I always say to people, and I get up and I give a little spiel and I say, uh, look, I don't care how much you give, I'm not telling you to tithe, I'm not telling you to do anything. I don't know who gives what to in in our congregation. I don't care if you give a dollar, but you better not give whatever is left over, because you are insulting god.
Speaker 4:How would you like it if somebody gave you a gift and you know they spent everything on whatever they wanted, and if what is left over, they said, okay, let's whatever is left over, give it to you? That signals that that person is least in importance. So you better use your money first, and I don't care if it's a dollar, but it had better darn well be your first dollar, because that is saying you are the first, most important thing in my life. God and the, the etymology of worship is the art or practice of what is worthwhile. And if you don't give what is worthwhile your greatest amount of gain, then don't come telling me that it's worship and what you are saying is exactly what led to the first murder.
Speaker 1:Remember that Cain and Abel brought. Cain brought what was at hand, yes, random, okay, but Abel brought the fat and the first, so he brought the best.
Speaker 4:Yes, but the principle is not to blame for the murder, the what?
Speaker 1:The principle is not to blame for the murder, no, the principle is not to blame for the murder, no, no, but it led to it. In other words, it was Cain's jealousy for Abel, but Abel's sacrifice was accepted because it was the best, well I know Whereas Cain was just grabbing.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no, no. That's the wrong reading of that Father. Don't accept that. Don't accept that.
Speaker 4:Okay.
Speaker 1:Stuart is giving us a completely inerrant it's what the text says when we come back when we come back, we're going to have David correct the rabbi. I'm reading the bible. It's in the bible this is KNTH 1070.
Speaker 4:Stay tuned because we're going to make the rabbi squirm.
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Speaker 11:The Second Amendment does not apply to semi-auto rifles, nor does it apply to bolt-action rifles, pistols or revolvers. Hey, the Second Amendment restricts government. The technology of the firearm is irrelevant. The restrictions on government remains the same, regardless of the firearm. The Second Amendment was not written to grant permission to citizens to own and bear firearms. It forbids governments interference in the right to keep and bear arms Period. Supporting the Second Amendment. This is the Big 1070. The answer Money.
Speaker 4:Money. Money makes the world go round, the world go round, the world go round.
Speaker 12:Money makes the world go round. It makes the world go round.
Speaker 2:It's cabaret.
Speaker 12:It's.
Speaker 1:Cabaret.
Speaker 2:Cabaret.
Speaker 1:That's from the Broadway musical Cabaret. If you happen to be rich, you should be like an artist. All right, welcome back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we can't hear the music out here, so I don't know.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, they were singing money, money, money, money from the musical Cabaret. It was Joel Grey and Liza Minnelli. I think she got an Academy Award for that. Okay, but anyway, welcome back to A Show of Faith on AM107,. The Answer Okay, David, you know this is not our topic, Stuart.
Speaker 2:We don't have to go into it, but it just would be so easy to prove you wrong. Go ahead and give us your argument.
Speaker 1:I'm reading from Genesis 4, verse 3. In the process of time it came to pass that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground, an offering. Wait a minute. Why are you starting with verse 3?
Speaker 2:Because it's where it talks about what they gave.
Speaker 1:No, but that's not the point. Okay, in your Christian opinion, what's the point?
Speaker 2:This is not a Christian opinion. This is what the text says. The text says very clearly that Eve bore two children. She bore first of all Cain and then Abel. Now Abel, his job was to be a keeper of the sheep. He was a sheep herder. Cain was a farmer. He was a tiller of the ground. What Cain brought was what he was responsible for. That is the fruit of the ground. What Cain brought was what he was responsible for. That is the fruit of the ground. What Abel brought was what he was responsible for. No, that's not what it says.
Speaker 1:No, no. In verse 4, Abel brought of the firstlings of his flock. He didn't just buy, he just didn't bring the random flock, he also brought the fat thereof, which are the two of the best. So he's bringing the best of what he has.
Speaker 2:There's nothing in verse 3 that indicates that he doesn't bring the best of the fruit of the ground.
Speaker 1:No, no, but that's the point.
Speaker 2:Why is that the point? The text doesn't say that.
Speaker 1:No, the text says that Abel brought the best.
Speaker 2:He brought to the Lord an offering of the fruit of the ground. Now, how do we know?
Speaker 1:that's not the best, because it doesn't say it's the best, whereas for Abel, it does say it's the best.
Speaker 2:But it doesn't necessarily imply that it's the best. What's the best of the fruit of the ground?
Speaker 1:I would assume the first fruits Could be, we're about to have a holiday that includes the feast of the first fruits, so, david, how would you interpret why the jealousy of Cain?
Speaker 2:well, the jealousy of Cain is his perspective on the idea that God favored him over himself, and we're not told why God accepted one and apparently rejected the other. We don't know what that is.
Speaker 1:By simple, obvious interpretation. Abel is bringing the firstlings of the flock and the fat thereof, which is the best, but Cain is bringing simply the fruit of the ground. That could be anything.
Speaker 2:Well, it could be anything, but it could be also the very, very best.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but it doesn't say anything that indicates it's the best, whereas for Abel it does Okay, well let's, we will go on from here. Mario, he's just trying to give that typical Christian interpretation. Oh, he's just trying to give that typical Christian interpretation.
Speaker 4:Oh, let's just presume that the rabbi no, no, no.
Speaker 2:I'm not giving a typical Christian interpretation. Yes, you are.
Speaker 4:Well, let's presume that the rabbi is wrong, and that's good. Rudy, you want to join in, Rudy?
Speaker 5:I don't know if I really want to. On this one I'm a little scared, to be honest.
Speaker 1:Yeah, see, rudy, probably never covered this at the University of St Thomas master's degree program in theology.
Speaker 5:No, we covered the first five books and we would go back and read Our professor. She spoke Hebrew and she would always mention the Hebrew word and the meaning of it Doesn't do you any good if you're not giving it the right interpretation?
Speaker 5:I mean I would agree, and then that would be a whole other conversation. This is what I wanted to talk about. I wanted to mention that there are certain things going back to money and I just find it curious how there's particular verses and I'm thinking of one Dr Kish correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's in Acts where he talks about I think they're talking about so the Apostle describing Christians sharing possessions and ensuring that no one among them is needy. Yeah, in's chapter two.
Speaker 5:Okay, so I think that there's a lot of incorrect and I keep seeing this all over social media that I think there's a lot of incorrect interpretations too when it comes about not necessarily I guess it does affect the use of money, but also the sort of economic establishment that we should be engaging in, for example, a type of more socialist environment instead of such a kind of capitalist-oriented economic system that we have on.
Speaker 5:So I always find, when people try to, I think to some degree the Bible's sort of agnostic to this. You know it doesn't push for one thing or the other. It certainly, I would say it certainly doesn't push for a kind of Marxist interpretation of an economic structure, for sure. But then again, I'm always so wary of people that try to use the Bible to kind of get me to do something with my economies right. And I think the most important thing I think out of all this is something Father Mario said earlier it's God wants you and I think this is the point of maybe what the rabbi and you were kind of getting at is God, at the end of the day, just wants you to give the best of you. Whatever that is, yeah.
Speaker 5:Right, whatever you're offering, right, and I think that's kind of, and whether it's your money right. We go to work, we sit in an office, some of us have more manual works. We sit in an office, some of us have more manual works. I mean, to me it's, it's interesting to even think about that. Jesus had Como se oficio, oficio.
Speaker 4:Jesus had like a oh God, now I'm stuck.
Speaker 5:No, no, no, no. Like he had a job. He had a title, right, he was a carpenter, he made things, he worked right. He didn't just sit around and be the son of God. I mean all these guys they worked. I mean they had, like you were saying, they were fishermen, they were tradesmen, they were tax collectors, they were tradesmen, they were tax collectors. So all these people you know participated in the economy in a particular way that allowed them to gain experience and money and, at the end of the day, what we do with what we gain. I think that God cares more about right than not necessarily the economic system that we find in mind.
Speaker 2:If God has all of you, he's not asking for part of you. He's asking for all of you. When God has all of you, he has your wallet.
Speaker 5:No, no, my future wife has my wallet right now.
Speaker 2:sorry, Well, your future wife? Okay, well, you know, take it to the limit, as they say. The eagles say take it to the limit. So the passage you were referring to is actually Acts 4. Acts 4, okay, acts 4, you know, kind of toward the end of the chapter. It talks about that in the earliest Christian community. It says that no one claimed private ownership of any possessions. It talks about that in the earliest Christian community. It says that no one claimed private ownership of any possessions, but everything they owned was held in common. Now some people have taken that as an early form of communism, but it's not that at all. It's not that at all, because this is not a government prescribed program. This is a voluntary program.
Speaker 2:David, it sounds like a kibbutz no, well, in a way it is stewart, in a way it is. They owned everything in common it's, and it goes on to say that there was not a needy person among them, for all those who owned things sold those things and they brought the proceeds that were sold. So if I owned something, if you needed something, if you needed a place to live, or if you needed food, or if you needed something, and if I had the means to sell something to provide that, then I would do that. This was a radical kind of Christian community, right, but isn't that? This doesn't exist exactly. But again, it's not government prescribed, right, but it's not some force beyond you, the Roman government, the Judean government, the Galilee government, saying this is what you're going to do, which is the distinction, right?
Speaker 1:The government is a socialist communist. You know what that?
Speaker 4:sounds like. It sounds like a Roman Catholic religious community.
Speaker 1:Well, I was about to say it sounds like it's what should be all religious communities taking care of membership, taking care of others.
Speaker 2:Yep, yep. And the description here is radical compared to what the kind of life that we live. We say that sounds crazy, that only sounds crazy, against our addiction to materialistic things and our personal well-being and to our personal addiction to, you know, affluence, personal addiction to addictions to affluence.
Speaker 1:It's also addiction to our separateness, Our living in our homes, our concern for our own home. What's inside our own house? You used to hear a lot more people coming over to individuals' homes. You see it at holidays, but you don't see it during the weekend, shall we say.
Speaker 4:Gentlemen, we need to begin to close this because we have about a minute left, a minute and a half.
Speaker 1:There seems to be a lot more separateness of families and social life and community life now than there was back then.
Speaker 4:What would you think of a rich man who told a minister, a rabbi and a Catholic priest he wanted to take all his money? And so he gave him each a big bag of cash and he says I want you to put it in my coffin.
Speaker 1:And they all put it in their coffin.
Speaker 4:They put it in their coffin and on their way home the rabbi says I'm so sorry, I took $10,000 because I needed. My congregation needed it. The Baptist minister said oh man, I'm glad you said that I took $30,000 because my congregation needed it. And the parish priest says you horrible, horrible ministers, I put every, I took 100% of the cash and I put a check in cash in heaven, right, and I put every. I took 100% of the cash and I put a check in.
Speaker 1:So you can cash in heaven, right, and I put the check in. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, I owe you Money, money, money, money.
Speaker 4:Okay, last thing, what do you call a criminal who's landing an airplane A criminal who landed an airplane Landing an airplane Condescending? Okay, this is 1070 KNDH, that's a good one. I like those. We'll talk to you next week. Bye.
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