A Show of Faith
Millennial, Priest, Minister, and Rabbi walk into a radio station...
A Show of Faith
May 26, 2024 Disentangling the Threads of Spiritual Identity and Religious Traditions
Are you navigating the intricate dance between spirituality and religion? We've assembled an eclectic panel featuring a professor, a priest, a millennial, and a Rabbi, all passionate about theology, to dissect this modern-day problem. Together, we'll untangle the threads of what it means to be spiritual or religious, where individual quests for meaning often intersect with the communal traditions of faith. This episode promises to stretch your mind, plumb your beliefs, and perhaps even challenge your preconceptions.
Our conversation pirouettes around various compelling topics, from the 'spiritual but not religious' phenomenon to the critical role of religious communities in shaping our shared values. We're not afraid to question whether spirituality without structure can genuinely sustain us. It's a candid and often humorous exchange that will leave you contemplating the balance between personal spiritual journeys and the accountability from organized religion.
In an era quick to judge and slow to forgive, we also grapple with the troubling rise of 'cancel culture' and its effects on the transformative power of redemption. Join us as we navigate the murky waters of societal cynicism, advocating for a renaissance of compassion and understanding. This episode isn't just about the juxtaposition of spirituality and religion; it's an urgent call to uphold the spirit of redemption in a culture that often seems to have lost sight of it. So, come with an open mind and leave with a heart full of insights.
Because I play them too. Oh, but I need some time off From that emotion Time to put my part up off the floor. Oh, when that love comes down with that emotion, well, it takes a strong man, baby, but I'm sure I'm stupid or Cause. I gotta have faith. I gotta have faith, cause.
Speaker 2:I gotta have faith. Okay, I can't hear anything. Can you hear it?
Speaker 3:Oh, okay, in that case, welcome to A Show of Faith where Professor, priest, millennial Rabbi, discuss theology and philosophy and anything else of interest to religion. If you have any response to our topics or any comments regarding what we say, hey, we'd love to hear from you. Please email us at assurefaith at hotmailcom. You can hear our shows again and again by listening pretty much anywhere podcasts are heard. Our priest is Fr Mario Arroyo, pastor of St Cyril of Alexandria and the 10,000 block of Westheimer.
Speaker 4:It's an honor to be here, although I would appreciate turning down my volume a little bit.
Speaker 2:I'm getting no volume. I'm getting like extra, extra, extra volume. Okay, our professor is David Capes, baptist minister and director of the Lanier Theological Library.
Speaker 5:Hey, good to be back with you guys from jolly old England. Was it jolly? It was jolly Good, glad to hear it was jolly. Yeah, and I wore my Astro shirt today because I know Mario is such a big enthusiast about sports.
Speaker 4:And what did I say, David?
Speaker 5:And you said it was the ugliest shirt you've seen in a long time. Yes, so I was hoping to get a compliment from you, but I didn't. Anyway, it's an orange sort of themed shirt, so it's not everybody's favorite color, but I like it. And the Astros have been playing great lately. They start off really slow, really kind of, as the Brits would say, dodgy, a bit dodgy, but now they're playing much better. Igy, but now they're playing much better.
Speaker 2:I'm glad to know they're playing much better. See, Mario sees your shirt because he's a priest. He thinks the H is for the host.
Speaker 5:Okay, H host, it's Catholic impaired.
Speaker 4:I am truly, that's absolutely true, it is actually called religious illiteracy.
Speaker 2:Rudy Kong is our millennial. He's a systems engineer and has his master's degree in theology from the University of St Thomas Rudy.
Speaker 5:Hey, Rudy.
Speaker 2:I am Rabbi Stuart Federo, Rabbi Emeritus from Congregation Sha'ar HaShalom, a clear lake area of Houston, Texas. Jim Robinson is our producer and engineer. He's the author of the book I Am With you Always, Matthew 2820, a daily devotional. Corey and Miranda are our board operators, and Jim and Miranda and Corey help us sound fantastic Excellent.
Speaker 5:Now, can you hear now, Stuart?
Speaker 2:Not a word. Not a word. I can hear it through the air.
Speaker 8:I cannot hear it through the air.
Speaker 4:I cannot hear it through the, you can't hear it through the Don't pound the microphone, gosh, it's a rookie mistake. Okay, today I'm in charge and I would like the two of you and Rudy to not contribute anything.
Speaker 2:And you think he's kidding?
Speaker 4:No, Today I watched a very long video on YouTube on the phenomenon what it means to be spiritual but not religious.
Speaker 2:Snicker.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so I thought it would be a kind of an important, an important uh topic, because I don't think we've handled that topic before I don't think we have either no. So the question today is what are? What does it mean as well? You know, I got to tell the people at home. You're listening to this. You're going to get, of course, the perspective of three men actually four men, but three and a half men three and a half men no, because Rudy's a full man, but he's a three and a half pastor.
Speaker 4:he's not a pastor, neither are you.
Speaker 2:So anyway, are you getting it? Yeah, when I drive I get pastor all the time.
Speaker 5:Okay, okay, okay, we have to ignore him tonight.
Speaker 4:Yes, we have to ignore him, but you're going to get the perspective of three ministers and one theologian. So I'd like to start out by kind of making it a kind of a general statement to see how you guys agree with this.
Speaker 2:And here's the general statement Religion is what happens when spirituality moves from speculation and desire into participation and commitment.
Speaker 5:I would be able to preach that, yes.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think that I'll repeat it one more time Religion is what happens when spirituality moves from speculation and desire into participation and commitment. So let's begin by a general reaction of spiritual but not religious. I'll give it first to you, David.
Speaker 5:David Morgan, we've been hearing that phrase for a number of years now.
Speaker 5:I don't.
Speaker 5:I don't remember growing up hearing that 30, 30 years ago, so it seems like it's been the last 25, 30 years maybe, when that kind of thing where there is clearly a distancing away from any kind of.
Speaker 5:I think what is the real boogeyman for these folks is organized religion, the fact that there is organized participation going back, organized commitment, and that some people have a commitment that is all in right. I mean, they're playing poker and they're going all in on this commitment because they've donated their life to God and they've donated their life to the church or to the synagogue and so individuals. I think a lot of that has to do with this concern about what they view to be the problems with organized religion, which there are. But it does not mean throwing out the baby as they proverbial bathwater right at that point, because it is that connection with other people who are also spiritually gifted and spiritually desirous that creates a community of people who can encourage, who can direct, who can teach, who can model what it means to be a person of faith, model what it means to be a person of faith. So I think it's the young lady that you had us view today on the video the.
Speaker 2:Presbyterian preacher.
Speaker 5:Alyssa. She's also a country music, I mean, she's a music artist as well I'm going to remember her last name in just a minute but she tied it in with the New Age movement. She sort of began with the whole idea of what was happening in the New Age movements, which extend back to the 60s to some degree, and in the 70s and 80s and 90s, but this New Age religion. So I think there's something to that.
Speaker 5:I think that there is something in the economy, in the air and in the world at the time that sort of spun these kinds of entities off, these entities, these other religions, these religious movements, what some people called in the day new religious movements. But they but they were about crystals and they were about, you know, meditation, not necessarily always connected to a religion, but sometimes just more meditative in its focus. So I, um, I understand the sentiment to some degree, but I disagree with it because I think that they are throwing out the baby with the bathwater. By denying or by being critical of kind of organized religion, they cut themselves off from the possibility of a community of like-minded people.
Speaker 4:Let me just add a little bit of something, and maybe you can keep on expanding on it, rabbi. I always like to go to kind of the definition of words. First of all, when we say spiritual, what does that mean, and what does it include? Does it include? Because I'm afraid what we might be doing is talking about a an increasingly diluted christian, judeo-christian environment both, trust me which which is what happened. What is happening is, though, that the word spiritual can mean anything.
Speaker 2:It can mean. It's whatever the person who uses the phrase wants it to mean.
Speaker 4:That's right. It can mean pagan. You can be worshipping anything. It can be satanic, because it's definitely spiritual.
Speaker 2:You can be dealing with gems and be secular, not gem. What do they call it? Semi-precious stuff? No, what do they call it? It doesn't with gems and be secular, not gems. What do they call it? Semi-precious stuff? No, what do they call it? It doesn't matter.
Speaker 4:Yeah, spiritual Spiritual, so spiritual can mean. My chief criticism of it is that it's basically a made-up religion that you make up on your own and you use anything that is as long as it's not related to the community or you know organized, I think that's a good point.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I think that's a good point that it does put the individual, puts me in charge, right. It makes me the center and not God. The center, not some others as the center, not some transcendence at the center, but I'm at the center because I'm the one that's making the judgment about what is truth and what is not truth and those kind of things.
Speaker 2:Reactions david, I mean story, my my thing about this whole spiritual as opposed to being religious is it's like and I'm trying to think of the perfect analogy, but it's like somebody who loves playing cards. Now, they don't want to play cards and meet with other people at the same time to play the same game. You know organizing around card playing. They just like the feel of the cards for themselves. They'd rather go off into the woods and play with the cards and they're done.
Speaker 4:That's an interesting.
Speaker 2:And then, if you ask them well, I see that you really like playing cards. You just don't want to play and don't want to organize a game, don't want to have other people around you, you just want to do it on your own. When was the last time you did that? Well, there are people around you, you just want to do it on your own. When was the last time you did that? Well, and they haven't done it in. They certainly haven't done it regularly and they probably haven't done it for months and months and months, which means they're losing out on what they think they enjoy feeling.
Speaker 4:Actually, I was going to correct you a little bit, but I think you will welcome this correction, and that is they don't like playing cards, they like playing with cards.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's what I thought I said, but you're right, I didn't. They like playing with cards, but they don't want to play cards, yeah, and they don't want to organize around card playing with other people.
Speaker 2:Because the moment that you're going to play cards, you're presuming that there's going to be some kind of organization. But see, when they say spiritual as opposed to religious, that is, in my opinion, a put-down of organized religion. Well, it is, but human beings will organize around anything at all to accomplish goals that are common with other people. Yes, in other words, I want to school my children, I will organize to create a school. I will get a board of directors of the school, I will find people who will donate pencils, I will paper, I will find. In other words, if you want to get it done, you organize, and religion is no different. If you want to get it done, so to speak, if you want to have a place to worship people, to worship with Sunday schools, to educate your children, parties and celebrations of life cycle events, then you have to organize to get it done. And they're willing to accept organization for the things they want. They just reject organizing around ideas of religion. That's like playing with cards but not calling.
Speaker 4:Actually, let's keep on going because I want to come back to Rudy when you come back on the other side of the break. Anything further Not for me, david. Come back on the other side of the break. Anything further, not for me, david. I like the analogy.
Speaker 5:I mean, it really makes a whole lot of sense very honestly. And you know, whenever you have the game, you have the rules of the game, you have the goals of the game, you have the you know. Oh, but I'm spiritual.
Speaker 2:I don't want rules yeah yeah. Rules will just make me lose my spirituality.
Speaker 5:Yeah, the rules will just make me lose my spirituality. Yeah, no, it doesn't, but we do organize around almost anything, everything you know baseball, if you want to get it done.
Speaker 2:You organize.
Speaker 5:You know pro-Palestinian marches, you know, or whatever it might be, I mean, you organize, that's right.
Speaker 2:You have to organize to get things done. Religion is no different.
Speaker 5:Go back to your definition a minute ago.
Speaker 4:We will go back as soon as we come back.
Speaker 5:Okay.
Speaker 4:This is KMTH, an organization which is called a radio station, and we will come right back after this.
Speaker 8:AM 1070, the Answer.
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Speaker 7:When I die I lay in the rest Gonna go to the place. That's the best. When I lay in the down to die Going up to the spirit in the sky.
Speaker 5:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I wouldn't even try to do it.
Speaker 1:When I die, when I die, when I die and the lame are to rest.
Speaker 3:I'm going to go to the place that's the best.
Speaker 2:Welcome back to A Show of Faith on the Intensive.
Speaker 4:Answer.
Speaker 2:That is such a bunch of horse manure oh, it's worse. If an answer that is such a bunch of horse manure, oh it's worse. If you know the lyrics, it's even worse. Oh, I know I'm not a sinner because I've never sinned. I've got a friend in Jesus. That's not exactly what Christianity says.
Speaker 5:I don't think that's quite right. That's exactly what he? Says, Talking about spiritual but not religious tonight.
Speaker 2:Religion I'm religious, but I'm not connected.
Speaker 4:Yeah, religion I'm, but I I I'm religious, but I'm not connected. Yeah, I, I don't want to do anything with anybody else. I want to make up my own religion and I, when you know what's wonderful about that, what?
Speaker 2:nobody expects anything out of me except me and absolutely it's horrible to expect things out of people. That's right, it's demanding, it's it puts them on the spot you are just oppressing me.
Speaker 4:Absolutely. You are an oppressor. I am the moment you, the moment you expect anything from me. You're oppressing my freedom to be useless you are so demanding, you're so demanding my freedom to be useless.
Speaker 2:Freedom to be useless, yes, useless. That's a really good idea.
Speaker 3:Rudy.
Speaker 4:Robert, what do you think?
Speaker 6:What do you think? I think it's interesting because, using the rabbi's analogy there, it's like people want to have a deck of cards, but they don't understand where the cards come from or how they got there to begin with.
Speaker 3:That's true, good.
Speaker 6:It's just like okay, here's these kind of. The next thing I thought about, right is something Dr Cates was kind of alluding to, and this is right out of Genesis, right, what's the first thing that God is doing? Right, so the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters and giving form, and there's a definite emptiness. Right, Making order out of chaos.
Speaker 6:Right. So the Word of God essentially goes out, let's say, into creation, and what it's doing, it's always seeking to order things right, and I think that's where what I would understand as religion comes into right. It's this kind of logical ordering of what I would argue is a sort of divinely revealed experiences that turn into traditions. Right, so it's God revealing himself to humanity. Now, if you ask me personally, if you ask me Brody the hash, the half-man here, I think the current interpretation of spirituality in the world today is a sort of Marxist attack on the pillars of society. That's what it's being kind of fashioned as we're destroying the things that hold us together. Right, when you talk about family tradition, because it's not just, oh, let's criticize Catholics or let's criticize Jews, or let's criticize Jews or let's criticize the Lutherans or the Hindus, it's no, it's everything, it's the very essence of humanity itself. You know where you can be whatever you want. A man can be a woman, a woman can be a man, and this is the sort of order or call it chaos that we're sort of going back into. So I think that the masses, as much as people, tend to argue that, oh, you know, I'm Catholic, I'm indoctrinated into this thing, but it's like okay, but this sort of anti-rational, anti-god, anti-truth, anti-natural order. To some extent, I would say that that's the indoctrination too, because here's this sort of establishment, this anti-establishment group that in some real sense, has become the establishment, right. So you can't say anything now without well, unless you know you're on the verge of retiring and you can pretty much say whatever you want. But I mean, I think you really have to be careful, though, right to the kind of groups or to the people that you talk to. I mean, some people can really take these things and think that by calling out a truth, that you're attacking them in some essence, right.
Speaker 6:So I think that when and I forget the lady's name too, but in that video you showed us, I think our culture is kind of being fed this, this quote-unquote spirituality, right, as a sort of deconstruction of what actual truth is. And so when that truth can be told, that it can be found within you, and you carry a truth and you are this and everything comes from within you, then what are you left with? It's just like your own craziness, and that's a bad place to be. And and I was uh, I was hearing another brief talk and this is an homily, but it's within the fabric of community where we check our crazy in some real sense.
Speaker 6:That's right. So when, when we kind of seclude ourselves and we become individualistic, anything crazy that I can sort of come up in my own cave becomes the truth, and that's not a good place to be. I mean, our minds outside of an order of principle, outside of commandments, are a scary place to be. So so I think this is where we kind of find a lot of the um, I would say, degenerate thought today, or the sickness, if you will, of today. Sorry I spoke too much, but no, you didn't.
Speaker 4:No, you didn't speak too much at all.
Speaker 5:Yeah yeah, interesting, now you're, you're. You had a definition at the very beginning can, we can we revisit that, yeah, as we go into this break, and that way we can come back and maybe kind of deal with some aspects of that let's.
Speaker 4:Let's look at this very carefully. It says religion. Now religion, right here let's say organized religion. Okay, organized religion is what happens. Religion, okay. Organized religion is what happens when spirituality moves from speculation and desire into participation and commitment participation and commitment now notice that participation is taking apart, so you're taking part in something that does not belong to you, so you're immediately in organization, participation, taking part and commitment.
Speaker 4:you are making a decision to join something that already exists, a commitment to something outside of you. Okay, so spirituality, what happens? Organized religion is when spirituality moves from speculation and desire. You can have all the desire you want, and most of it is speculative, so you're just kind of flying in the air with nothing. Just kind of flying in the air with nothing, because you're not taking part in anything that is other than you, your own self, your own beliefs, taking participation and commitment. We're going to talk about that more when we get back this is KNTH 1070, and we'll be right back.
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Speaker 2:The answer. Welcome back to A Show of Faith. I'm AM 10-7, the Answer. So my question is this Welcome back to A Show of Faith. I'm Am 10-7, the Answer. So my question is this we were joking before we went to the break, even before Rudy started talking. We were joking about the demands. How you know, it's an affront if we make demands, and my question is what real demands are there when you participate in or become part of the dreaded religion? I don't know that there's any real. We hope they do these things. We want them to participate. We want them to be, you know, help the community. Okay, we want them to tithe. We want them to participate. We want them to help the community. We want them to tithe. We want them to donate. We want them.
Speaker 5:I think today it's easier than maybe to be anonymous as a member of a synagogue or a church, just to kind of come in and just observe and enjoy and leave, enjoy and leave.
Speaker 2:And they can do that every week if they want, you know it's.
Speaker 5:It's. I think it's different historically, when communities were smaller, churches were smaller and and I think there was expectation that people would take part in the life of the community. In other words, when there were sick people, they would be visited. When, when?
Speaker 2:they. When there were sick people, they would be visited.
Speaker 5:Expectation when there were people who were poor, they would be helped.
Speaker 2:It's an expectation.
Speaker 5:It's an expectation, but I still think that that's part of the commitment that you make.
Speaker 2:I am committed to this and we want them to make the commitment, but if they don't do, we have recourse.
Speaker 5:In some traditions they developed disciplinary actions and you know, there were, there were, there were issues, there were things that there was church discipline that took place, that often was applied. You know, I don't know if that was historically but in every tradition, but I know in the protest tradition, yes, that's true. Let the Protestant tradition, yes, that's true, let's move on, because I think that's a dumb argument.
Speaker 2:No, I was just asking what the demands were. I was not arguing. I think it's dumb. I was just simply asking the argument. It's dumb.
Speaker 5:We're saying that there are obligations there are expectations.
Speaker 2:It's not a demand, it's a requirement, it's a request. I just see it as qualitatively different.
Speaker 4:Yeah, but ultimately, the demands are by God. You're going to be judged by God.
Speaker 5:Yes, yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah yeah.
Speaker 4:Why did you want to move?
Speaker 6:on yeah but, Go ahead, rudy.
Speaker 6:I just wanted to say something real quick, because there's something that struck me, and it's in the video that you sent Father Mario struck me, and it's in the video that you sent Father Mario, and she gives the example of one of the comments that a lot of people gave to her as to why they were leaving these sort of established traditions, religions, and one of the answers was this I really didn't know the one true God, and in order for me to keep believing then, I had to abandon myself, so instead I chose myself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I remember that part of the video.
Speaker 6:Yeah, and I think just to kind of tie back in I think that's one of the things that it's asking is that I mean, to some degree, you have to give up. This isn't about me anymore, right? This is about and.
Speaker 6:Teresa Lavila calls it dying to oneself, right, but it's a sort of. It's a sort of and of course in Romans it talks about it too but it's sort of dying to my needs, right. And looking at what God has planned for me, what God has a need of me to do in this world, finding that purpose and I think that's what a lot of people are struggling with is finding that purpose in this world. Finding that purpose and I think that's what a lot of people are struggling with is finding that purpose in this world, right. And then, when they're confronted with a tradition that tells them okay, you have to be disciplined, you have to do this, you have to learn, you have to study, you have to educate yourself.
Speaker 6:You can't just go around, you know, triggering your dopamine levels all the time, because, well, number one, that actually makes you super, super, super dumber. The amount of dopamine releases there's a sort of direct relationship to the decrease in IQ when it's triggered. It's kind of one of the things why pornography, for example, is so bad for you. As much as it is bad for the spirit, it's also bad for you biologically, right. So anyway, I just wanted to. I just thought that was kind of an interesting video.
Speaker 2:Rudy, don't you think it's interesting, though, that they seem by your description, by hers also? They apparently don't include what they think God wants from them. What God wants for them is finding themselves. Why do they think that finding themselves is antithetical to religion? To?
Speaker 6:religion. I think it's because it's sold in a way that contracts from seeking how would you call it pleasurable experiences, and I think that's what you're trying today. I agree with what you're saying because I mean, as a Catholic I would say, in sort of abandoning myself and following Christ, I find my true self, because Christ is the sort of perfect human right. So I do find myself, but that means that I have to kind of give up on what the world tells me. Is the pleasurable things right? Maybe it's having a lot of relationships or seeking out, I don't know. Like I said, dopamine releases us. So I think it's. At least I think that's part of it, david.
Speaker 4:you said let's move on. Where did you want to move on?
Speaker 5:Yeah, I just wanted to move away from what Stuart was saying because that didn't make sense at all that there are obligations, there are obligations, there are obligations, there are rules to the game of cards. You've got to play by the rules and all those kind of things Go back to your analogy.
Speaker 5:At any rate, what I'd like to kind of move from is the idea that in this whole idea of spirituality, I think people sometimes say that spiritual but not religious because they want to get the credit for recognizing that they believe that there's more to the human being than just a physical, material body, but they don't want to go quite far enough to say that I want to join that with the billions of other people on the planet who have a different perspective than I do necessarily about it, because I want my ideas about me and and what I'm about to be the primary thing. Does that make sense?
Speaker 4:yes, it does. What I was going to ask you is is is there ever any positive way of saying I am spiritual but not religious? See, I can see of a positive. One of the things I highly recommend, by the way, is that you go of all places, Wikipedia, and in Wikipedia, look up spiritual, not religious, Right. I did, oh, really, and it's a very interesting part because they have different categories and I thought some of these categories might be interesting. For example, there are people who are seekers.
Speaker 4:There may be seekers who have not yet found the truth. They have not yet found the truth, they have not yet found their relationship with God and they're open to some sort of organized religion. But they're not there yet, but there's an openness to that.
Speaker 5:Well, yeah, I think that's a positive aspect.
Speaker 2:They're truly seeking and don't think they've found it.
Speaker 4:There's also another category, that they're called immigrants, which are those people who have found themselves in a novel spiritual realm and are trying to adjust themselves to the new identity and its community. In other words, immigrants can be understood as looking at different organized religions and trying them on to see if they make sense. So we have to make room for people who are immigrating from other places. Converts, huh.
Speaker 4:Converts People seeking to convert right yeah yeah, so there has to be if we're saying spiritual but not religious. It's kind of like if you're jumping from one group to another, there's a time that you're going to be in the midair, and when you're in the midair you're jumping, you are not yet Unaffiliated.
Speaker 2:you're not.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you're not. So it's not that I would say that spiritual but not religious is evil in and of itself or wrong in and of itself. It can be taken to the point that you don't want anyone interfering with you doing your own little thing with God and making up your own religion.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but like David was saying, I think part of or maybe he wasn't saying, but that's what I heard is when he was talking about people who do this I'm spiritual, they're virtue signaling, that's true, they're showing off. That's what I thought.
Speaker 5:Oh, okay, they're virtue signaling. Yeah, you understand that a human being is more than just this physical material stuff bags of chemicals, as a friend of mine puts it. We're more than that, but at the same time, we don't want to go full out to say that there are other people that may have actually figured some of this out, and I should probably look at them as models. That's part of what religion is about. It is finding people in whom we can model, in whom we can model right, in whom we can model. That's the truth, yeah, yeah, are you listening? I am.
Speaker 6:And one thing that I thought about is I think a lot of it too is a lot of it has to do with age.
Speaker 6:And I think a lot of these people that I I remember we had some conversation, there's a few research that I think you brought up one time but most of these spirituals, let's call them or in this demographic, they've gone through life experiences where I mean there's people that maybe have had, say they had, a heart attack or a near-death experience, or know somebody, or have come through you know, unscathed in an accident or something like that, and they really question themselves and really kind of go down a path. I think this is also, how would I say, the naive mindset of youth.
Speaker 4:Yeah, Well, we have to go to a break now.
Speaker 5:Yeah, we do. Okay, we'll not be naive to that. We will not be naive.
Speaker 4:This is 1070 KNTH. I'm with you Right back.
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Speaker 3:The Answer. Welcome back to the show.
Speaker 4:David, where do you want to go?
Speaker 5:Well, you know, this whole conversation about I'm spiritual but I'm not religious begs the question of what human beings are at a very fundamental level. We are truth seekers. I mean, we are seeking the truth about life. I mean, almost everybody has some sort of story or time in their life when they were looking for the truth, and so I think a part of what we're offering, what religion offers, organized religion, is people who have been on the path before, who have found the truth and who are giving testimony to that truth. They're testifying to it, and what we're experiencing today, though, is this sort of idea of relativism, that there's no such thing as objective truth.
Speaker 5:Truth is just what is subjectively, I think, and it doesn't really matter, even though it's clearly. There are clear, objective truths out there in the world. We recognize that at some level, but we don't want to take that to a more of a transcendent level. I may recognize that 2 plus 2 is 4, and that's true, and that will always be true, and et cetera. I may recognize the two plus two is four, and that's true, and that will always be true, and et cetera. I may recognize the truth of that, but that doesn't really import into more significant levels of living, does that make sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, I'm more cynical, david. When I hear somebody saying, well, I'm more spiritual than I am religious, I think, first of all, they're virtue signaling. They're trying to make themselves better than the common people who have to have religion. But I also don't think they're really looking for truth. I think they're looking for feelings. I think they're looking for something to make them feel good, feel better about themselves.
Speaker 2:Validation of some sort or make them. They'll barely lift a finger, but they think they've done something to help change the world. That's, I guess I'm just cynical, but that's when they start talking about. I'm spiritual, not religious. That's what I hear, rudy.
Speaker 6:I think I as much as I think to admit it. I agree with the rabbi. That's because he's smart. I think you know, and thinking back to my college days, the amount of people that I would talk to and Catholics too, right, especially in the Hispanic culture that would say you know, yeah, I was baptized and I kind of grew, but I'm more spiritual now. But when you actually look at the actions that they're doing, are they actually seeking truth? Are they actually trying to find something that gives meaning to their lives? Most often than not, at least in my experience, has been that these people are just looking for justification for egocentric behavior. That's really the observation that I find I don't see that. That's not to say that maybe people that are spiritual are in a path to find truth. Right, maybe they really are. I mean, I'm sure there are people like that, I guess it's just my opinion.
Speaker 4:Let me bring up something why do you think and I have an answer to this, but why do we think that people are some people, not all, but some people are so down on organized religion? I want to be able to offer an explanation, and maybe not the only explanation, but I've always said that because I have devoted my entire life to organized religion, to being a Catholic.
Speaker 5:And to be a Catholic priest, to be a Catholic priest, yeah.
Speaker 4:But I always like to remind people who are coming into the organized Catholic church I said do not expect a museum of saints, because you're not going to find it. The church, organized religion, is more of a hospital for sinners than it is a museum of saints. When you walk into a hospital, are you, should you ever be surprised that you're going to see sickness? You should not. The purpose of the hospital is to help you become better, to heal you, and in a hospital not only are there people who are sick, the doctors get sick themselves, and there is good doctors and there is not so good doctors.
Speaker 4:And so if the expectation is that just because this is an organization and this organization called a religion, whatever it is, catholic synagogue, whatever it is that you are there to expect that everything is going to be just hunky-dory because God only knows you're so dad-burn perfect, you are there to expect that everything is going to be just hunky-dory because God only knows you're so dad-burn perfect that nothing should touch you, that is just not perfect. I see that all the time, people saying well, I'm leaving this church because it's full of hypocrites. Well, wherever you're going to go, it's going to screw it up by your membership, because all of us.
Speaker 5:We all fall short. We all do. We all fall short at some point.
Speaker 2:Every congregation, every religion, every organized religion is still made up of people.
Speaker 5:Right, right, yeah, and people make mistakes. I learned that from Big Bird Sesame Street. Sesame Street, big Bird.
Speaker 4:Why.
Speaker 5:Everybody makes mistakes. Oh Big.
Speaker 4:Bird why Everybody makes mistakes. Oh, is that what he said.
Speaker 5:Yeah, he was right too. Do you remember Big Bird? Yes, of course. I mean, that was a big bird and my kids love Big Birds, big Bird, anyway everybody makes mistakes. But that's exactly right, and so people who are truly sick will seek out a hospital. That's right Right Now, if you believe that you are healthy and you're better than the next guy and even in your sick days you're better than the next guy, whatever, maybe you'll never go to the hospital, no, but you probably need to, you know at some point.
Speaker 2:And you're probably sicker than most people who think they're sick, and even if you're well, you can go to the hospital and help people who are not well.
Speaker 4:Yeah, but ultimately every one of us is in some way or another broken In need, in need, and we're broken. And so when you walk into any church, any synagogue, Did Stewart just agree to that.
Speaker 2:Yes, he did, yes, I did.
Speaker 5:You agreed that we're all broken.
Speaker 2:No, that's not what he said. That's what he said. That is not what he said. Do you know?
Speaker 4:what you said this is my show, shut up. As I was saying before, I was so interrupted I forgot now. No, but I heard it said one time from a Christian perspective is that you don't walk away from Jesus because of Judas. Or because Peter was such a tremendously committed disciple.
Speaker 5:You know, let me play the devil's advocate for a moment. I do think that we have seen and it has been aggravated and probably exacerbated by media sources an increase in the past 30 years of known bad actors within religion. Now, there have always been, but now we have this mechanism social media, media kind of thing thing to be able to take those things and just broadcast those right and put them at at the top of, you know, ahead of presidential elections, ahead of, you know, or tsunamis, whatever, um, you know, when people, when people make mistakes and a lot of, and we've we've seen a lot of high-profile people who've made serious mistakes, but then we've also seen the Mother Teresa's, the Billy Graham's, I mean thousands of people who have like yourself, like you, rabbi, who've given your life for these things, who are not womanizing, who are not seeking power, who are not doing all these kind of things and seeking to be rich, rich, rich, rich, rich, whatever the temptation is, but that's because the expectation is that they're supposed to be perfect and we're not.
Speaker 2:We're not perfect. I don't really think the disappointments and harm or hurt that people have felt and why they leave organized religion comes from the big shot. People that make the news.
Speaker 2:I think it's from a sisterhood, where one woman says something stupid to another woman, or where the rabbi was sick that day and didn't get to go visit somebody in the hospital and they take it personally. It's the small little things that, I think, push people out of organized religion. Not because of organized religion, but because, like we just said ten seconds ago, it's made up of human beings who aren't perfect.
Speaker 5:Yeah, who say stupid things. Who say stupid things? Who do get sick, who are incons't perfect? Yeah, who say stupid things.
Speaker 2:Who say stupid things, who do get sick, who are inconsiderate, right, you know, when I have a group of people who are talking about oh, I can hardly wait to join a synagogue, I say I just remind them and I'm much more polite than both of you. I always say to them don't forget, there are some Jews who are a-holes and you know what word I use.
Speaker 5:And there are Aardvark holes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's it. You're right, that's what I meant. What? Yeah, that's it. Aardvark.
Speaker 5:Aardvark A is for aardvark Right. I learned that out of children's book too, All the important stuff I learned.
Speaker 2:A is for aardvark. There used to be a book called everything I ever needed to know. I learned exactly, exactly.
Speaker 5:Well, I I do think that this is something we're seeing more and more of and and rudy may be right it's more prevalent among younger folks that don't want to necessarily be identified with anything you know, that's outside of themselves necessarily. They want to sort of define themselves and find themselves and they don't want to sort of see themselves as members of a community, as kind of a connected person at that point.
Speaker 4:I think that that also grows away the older you get.
Speaker 5:Yeah, you get married, you have kids.
Speaker 4:I mean, you know, and you find out just how much you depend on other people.
Speaker 2:Right and how much you need the organized religion.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and organization in and of itself. In and of itself, because right now we're in a very cynical mood in our culture, whereas everything well, but I mean everything is considered if you're imperfect. I mean, look at what we do to each other. The moment we find an imperfection, you're canceled. Right the moment we find everything else, even if it's 20 years ago, that's right, it's immediately canceled, and so we're right now in a position that we're just going around canceling and condemning each other. There's no room for redemption, so anyway.
Speaker 5:Yeah, Interesting discussion condemning each other there's no room for redemption.
Speaker 4:So anyway, the last 10 seconds, Rudy 20 seconds.
Speaker 6:It was my turn again, so I know we had to take a break last week, but it was a good conversation this weekend and I think as a society we've lost sight of redemption, so it's definitely we should be a lot more charitable towards each other, that's for sure. Good.
Speaker 4:Okay, folks, this is 1070 KNTH. You've been listening to the Show of Faith. Please keep us in your prayers.
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