A Show of Faith
Millennial, Priest, Minister, and Rabbi walk into a radio station...
A Show of Faith
November 03, 2024 Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship
Father Mario steps into the hosting seat for a lively and thought-provoking discussion with esteemed guests David Capes and Rudy Kong, who join us all the way from Guatemala. Together, we navigate the intricate dance between faith and politics, exploring how personal beliefs can shape civic duties.
Our dialogue dives deep into the complex voting world, especially when the candidates align with policies conflicting with moral values. We tackle the challenging notion of selecting the lesser of two evils, drawing from guidance from the USCCB; we explore the moral dilemmas faced by voters. The episode also reflects on the influence of religious teachings on governance as we discuss the Catholic Church’s stance on social redemption and the essential role of Christians in public life.
The conversation doesn't shy away from addressing the church's political role. We emphasize a nonpartisan approach that prioritizes human dignity and shapes public conscience yet maintains a critical distance from party lines. As we conclude, we remind our listeners of an upcoming lecture at the Lendinger Theological Library with Gary Habermas, who will shed light on Jesus's resurrection. Tune in for a journey that balances serious discourse with camaraderie and humor, and don't forget to keep us in your thoughts and prayers.
Stop, stop, what's that sound? Everybody, look what's going down. Quite a little more resistance. Welcome tonight to the show of faith where minister, priest, rabbi and millennial talk about events in the news and their relationship with religion. And we do it all the time, we do it every week and, as you know, dr or Rabbi Stewart is not here tonight. That's why, what you didn't know, that I don't think he's on, okay, well, no, okay.
Speaker 1:That's why I'm doing that's why I'm doing such a mess of the introduction, because I don't know how to do the freaking introduction I know, because stewart is not here, stewart's not here, he's not feeling well, he's not feeling. Well, no, that just happens you know, it just happens, especially to old older and you know that research has found that old people should not eat health foods. Because? Because we need all the preservatives we can get.
Speaker 4:Ba-dum-bum-bum. We need some drum Rim tap.
Speaker 1:And with me tonight. I'm Father Mario. I'm a retired pastor of St Cyril of Alexandria Catholic Church. I just retired three or four months ago.
Speaker 4:But you're not idle.
Speaker 1:No, I'm not idle. I am idolized, but I am not idle. And tonight with me is my guest, David Capes, who has deigned us with his scholarly presence.
Speaker 4:Well, it's great to deign you. Yeah, deign me.
Speaker 1:And then Rudy, Rudy, where are you? Are you there?
Speaker 4:Rudy is in. I am here, Rudy Rudy, Rudy Rudy's down in Guatemala.
Speaker 1:Rudy Kong is in Guatemala. He's got. He's an engineer. Are you an engineer, right?
Speaker 5:No, I am a systems engineer by trade and yes, and a fairly decent amateur theologian. I would say amateur at best.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and of course, but I'd say fairly decent as well, fairly decent. Yes, yes, and of course that's a fairly decent as well.
Speaker 1:Fairly decent. Yes, corey is our board operator right and Miranda.
Speaker 4:Miranda's helping us as well. Tonight, miranda's helping us.
Speaker 1:And why else?
Speaker 4:Let's see, and McDonald's provided oh.
Speaker 1:McDonald's, would you believe they were out of quarter pounders.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's unforgivable, that's unforgivable.
Speaker 1:Anyway, tonight I am in charge. God, this goes scary. It is extremely, extremely scary. Yeah, yeah. Especially after the robbery that occurred at the police station.
Speaker 4:What happened?
Speaker 1:Somebody stole all the toilet seats.
Speaker 4:They did.
Speaker 1:Yes, they did, and the detectives have absolutely nothing to go on. How's that?
Speaker 4:Yeah, rudy, rudy, I hope your wife is there. She's got to pull us out of this.
Speaker 5:I mean, I think she's the only one who can properly pull us out of this one.
Speaker 4:Yes, indeed. Hey, we are going to talk about politics tonight. You know we talk about philosophy a lot of time. We talk about theology, we talk about culture. But you know we're on the eve of a pretty big election right Presidential election, we've got states, we've got Senate seats.
Speaker 1:Something's happening here. We've got congress's happening, congressman's, yeah, and what? It is ain't exactly clear that's true, yeah there's a man with a gun over there oh gosh and when he says you got to beware, I think it's time we stop. What's that sound?
Speaker 4:everybody looking anyway buffalo spring rap a spring anyway. Um, all right. So what're going to talk about tonight? I mean, we're going to talk about. First of all, did you vote yet, father?
Speaker 1:yes, I did.
Speaker 4:Okay, all right, and and was it crowded when you went?
Speaker 1:to vote. It wasn't really okay. I got right in okay I mean there was a few people there, but uh, I got right in okay, uh, so no problem?
Speaker 4:yeah, I would. I voted on uh tuesday I think it was tuesday or wednesday and it was fairly busy uh where I was, but they had they had it uh really well organized and and people moved through pretty quickly and uh, there were looked like dozens and dozens, maybe, maybe, maybe 100 people there, up to 100 people there, but it was very well organized. So I'm hoping that we're going to have a fair and clear election this year.
Speaker 9:I know there were some concerns.
Speaker 4:I certainly hope so, you know there's always a possibility on every side that there are some shenanigans that go on, but I'm hopeful that we'll have a really good, that every American who votes, that their ballots will be counted, that they'll be counted in a goodly time. And that we'll know, we'll know hopefully before Thursday or Friday, right or something I don't know.
Speaker 1:Hopefully I still maintain my very unpopular opinion.
Speaker 4:Which is.
Speaker 1:I don't want everybody to vote. You don't want it. I said all Americans to vote.
Speaker 4:Don't want everybody to vote, you don't want it. I said all Americans to vote. No, I don't. You don't want all Americans.
Speaker 1:I mean put it this way If you know what you're doing and you're voting for a semi-intelligent reason, go vote, please go vote. But there are so many people who just don't give it a second thought and Just don't give it a second thought. And that's not responsible citizenship.
Speaker 4:No, that's not. I mean, we should at least become informed about things, that's right. So, Rudy, you're down there in Guatemala have you had a chance to vote yet, rudy.
Speaker 5:Actually, I ordered my mail-in ballot some time ago and I was supposed to have a family member come down before the election and they were going to bring my ballot and I was going to send it back and mail it in, but unfortunately a couple of plans changed so I was not able to vote this election, this election. So yeah, normally I voted for everything, for the last, more that since I've been able to vote, and I was naturalized, but I took that quite seriously and actually for more of the local elections, I think it's even more paramount, especially Like school boards and and and those kinds of things, you know. I think they're hugely important, you know, in the scope of things. I mean, I don't like to say that you know just one vote, but it's like that's how they sum up, you know.
Speaker 4:So I think it is everybody One plus one plus one plus one, right? Well, listen, there's still time. I mean, Guatemala's not that far away.
Speaker 1:There's still time to get on a plane and fly up here.
Speaker 10:I'm serious, I'm serious man if you really believe.
Speaker 4:I mean, you know, come on, it's only. What about $1,000 to get up here and vote and?
Speaker 5:fly back home. Yeah, that's a small price to pay.
Speaker 4:Small price to pay for freedom and democracy. Come on, man, come on, I mean, your wife will let you go. Yeah, bring her with you. Just bring her with you and get two seats. You know, first class. You go first class all the way. You millennials go first class all the way.
Speaker 5:It's actually. One of the reasons I haven't been up is that we're still waiting on a US visa for her so she can go into the US. Apparently, americans don't take kindly to Brazilians Really Coming in without a visa. Yeah, yeah, there's too many Christians down there in.
Speaker 4:Brazil. So that's what it is. Hey, listen, we're going to talk about politics tonight. We're going to talk about elections. We're going to talk about integrity. We're going to talk about integrity. We're going to talk about conscience. So many topics.
Speaker 1:Did you get the thing I sent Rudy?
Speaker 5:I did, yeah. Okay, there's a lot of content on it, but yeah, I got through most of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I underlined some things and I told you guys that if you wanted to say something or choose something else, we could. But I want to start out, and this is a document, and the document is called Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship. This is part one only from the US Bishops on Reflection on Catholic Teaching on Political Life. This is part one only from the US Bishops on reflection on Catholic teaching on political life. Okay, but I think what we have here is very is extremely common to all Christians.
Speaker 4:I would say, yeah, I mean there are a few things that there I would say well, I'm not too sure about that, but by and large, I think many Christians could amen this and would amen what many of the bishops have said, because there's a little bit about polity here. There's a little bit about theology, but a lot of it is just about natural theology. A lot of it is about general revelation and some really key things that we all agree on.
Speaker 1:Okay, let me read the first paragraph, and I underlined it. It's called this it kind of gives us the tone the Catholic Church. And when I'm saying the word Catholic, right from now, I'm using Catholic with a big C and with a small c.
Speaker 4:What's the distinction?
Speaker 1:The distinction is that well, it's actually a modern distinction without really any content. But the Catholicity of the Church is basically sometimes used as a capital C, as the Catholic Church when you identify as a Roman Catholic Church, and a small c when you identify as the totality of the Christians and all the Christian denominations. Darrell Bock.
Speaker 4:Right. Yeah, the word Catholic means originally just whole belonging to the whole. Richard Averbeck, that's right. So we're talking about everybody, right now.
Speaker 1:So when I say the Catholic Church, I'm talking about the big C and the little C. Listen to. This catholic church emphasizes that redemption has a social dimension, as god seeks to penetrate every situation and social bond, and that accepting god's love brings forth a primary response to desire, seek and protect the good of others.
Speaker 4:I would say amen to that, okay.
Speaker 1:So the very first thing that we need to understand is that for us, as Christians, it is not an issue of me and God by ourselves, because that's the, the, the correct really yeah, yeah, right there.
Speaker 1:It says that redemption has a social dimension, it is not just about me and god and that that social dimension is that it. It elicits a primary response to desire to seek and to protect the good of others. Okay, so the very first thing I wanted to talk about. We only have a couple minutes before we have to go to break, but what I want to talk about is this whole notion of, well, father, separation of church and state. How would you respond to that, david?
Speaker 4:I don't think the line of separation runs cleanly through a man's life, right? I mean, as I step into the voter booth I can't say, well, I've got to distinguish my church part of me from my political part of me, the state part of me. No person can do that. I mean no human being can, nor should we. That, as the document says here, when we talk about redemption, we talk about, in the words of Jesus, loving God with our whole heart and loving our neighbor as ourself. That's a part of what it means to believe the gospel, right.
Speaker 1:Now the issue, though, is that the church as church not as individuals, right, but as church we as church have a responsibility to bring forth the primary response as a church to desire, seek and protect the good of others. Okay, we participate in public life and this is goes to what you just said in a manner that is consistent with our faith. I mean, you don't separate your faith from your public responsibilities.
Speaker 5:Right.
Speaker 1:Woody, you want to say something about this.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I brought up a quote by John Adams that he told the Massachusetts militia in 1798, and he said the following our Constitution was made only for moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. And so to me I think he's the way that this country has been founded and the way that our governance sort of executes. You can't distinguish these things. I mean, it's like one is made from the other. It's like one thing gave birth to the other. Right, this belief in the imago Dei, this inherent dignity of the individual, is what birthed this form of government that has propagated for this long of a time. Right, so for us to sit here and say there's a separation no I mean, are we going to go around and enforce everybody to be Christians?
Speaker 5:Well, I think that's a different conversation, right? But I think it would be naïve of us to think that there is some way for us to kind of pry these things apart and have one without the other.
Speaker 1:There isn't such a thing as a separation of church and state, but there is no such thing as a separation of religion from public life. There's a big difference, that's different. We'll talk about that when we come back. This is KNTH 1070, and we'll be right back AM 1070, the Answer.
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Speaker 8:Johnny Angel, johnny Angel, you're an angel to me. Johnny Angel, how I love him, how I tingle when he passes by. Every time he says hello, my heart begins to fly.
Speaker 3:Johnny Angel how I want him. He's got something that I can't resist, but he doesn't even know that.
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Speaker 3:And together we will see how lovely heaven will be.
Speaker 4:And together, we will see how lovely heaven will be. Hey, welcome back to A Show of Faith here on AM 1070. The answer we're talking tonight about politics, we're talking about the election, we're talking about citizenship, we're talking about forming consciences, and we've got a document here. Father Mario was working on some technical issues here Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship, part 1. The US Catholic Bishops Reflecting on the Church's Teaching on Political Life, and so we're talking. We began with the idea that Christians believe and this is true of Christians, not just Catholic Christians, but Protestants, orthodox as well saying that when we talk about God's work in the world, god's work to save and deliver the world, that in fact that there are, that redemption that God has been enacting isn't just something that happens on a spiritual plane, on an eternal plane, but it happens here in the world, even now, father Mario.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's important for us to realize that the goal of the church's presence in the world you see, god's salvation is not just to be understood as an individual project Me and God by itself. That's why, especially Jesus, jesus said love one another as I have loved you. And what is loving another person or loving other people? It's desiring the good of the other, that's the love. Okay, and so if you're desiring the good of the other, what you have to understand is the definition of politics. The definition of Aristotle's definition of politics is perfect.
Speaker 1:Just politics answers just one question how ought we to live together and that's part of loving our brother and sister how ought we to live, what principles ought we to have that govern our living together as a group of people? That's what politics is. Now we come in a lot of plurality of people, different religions, different backgrounds and so it's important for us to understand and to identify what is common, not just to our religion and your religion and my religion, but is there anything in common to our humanity? And that's one of the things that the Catholic Church tries to do. The ultimate goal of the Catholic Church in participating in politics is to build a civilization of love where all human beings have the freedom and opportunity to experience God's love and to live out by making a life of free gift of themselves and to others, to create a just society. That's the entire desire of the Catholic Church.
Speaker 4:So that's where it's headed.
Speaker 1:That's where it's headed. That's where it's headed, and so we don't run, we don't participate in terms of, we don't approve of any specific candidate or we don't push any specific party. We only push the values that will help all human beings come together and live fruitful human lives.
Speaker 4:And many of those are shared by world religions, Many of those are shared by people of good faith. Right, I mean not everybody has had the revelation of God, but everybody wants to be loved, Everybody wants to have an opportunity, Everybody wants to have you know for there to be justice. I mean, I think we all understand what justice means. I mean even those who haven't been under the teaching of the Jews or the Christians, necessarily, or any one group, that we still understand what the idea of justice is.
Speaker 1:But see and, Rudy, I want you to come in right after the break because we're about a minute off and I want to give you more time right after the break, because we're about a minute off and I want to give you more time. But the whole issue for me is these days is that we as a people, especially in the United States, consider ourselves never as a people. It's all about the individual. And so what is? I decide what is good for me, independent of what is good for you or what is good for anybody else. We don't share any common human nature, and so the entire emphasis of American identity is the individual.
Speaker 4:Forget about the social I heard one politician recently say live your truth. Yeah, whatever your individual truth is, but that's not how truth works.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 4:There is an independent, there is an objective understanding of truth. Some things are true for all.
Speaker 1:But remember, that's exactly what some deny.
Speaker 4:Well, that's true, yeah.
Speaker 1:That there is no overarching truth for anybody, that it's all what's called these days. Instead of saying making it up, you say it's all a social construct. Okay, and that's exactly. The problem is that we have come to the point that the government, which ought to recognize a human nature, does not recognize that there is a human nature. It actually places the very act, the very substance of a human nature up to the individual, and that is deadly, because you're basically saying we have nothing in common. All we need to do is It'd be hard to communicate.
Speaker 4:We have nothing in common, but need to do is it'd be hard to communicate. We have nothing in common, but that's why.
Speaker 1:That's why we're in a situation that we are yeah that we can't talk. We can't talk because you don't have any any specific thing in common and that the government is saying you're right, there is nothing in common, we'll come when we come back. Woody's going to comment on that. This is 1070kMTH and we'll be right back.
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Speaker 1:Oh my God, this is old Gooby gooby gooby wooby, nappy wooby la la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la la, la, nappy whooby la la la, la la. This is.
Speaker 3:Good Morning Starshine.
Speaker 5:There it is. Good morning, Sthine. Hello. The earth says hello, you twinkle above us.
Speaker 3:We twinkle below.
Speaker 8:Good morning starshine you lead us along.
Speaker 3:My love and me as we sing.
Speaker 1:Our early morning singing song.
Speaker 5:Pretty good, pretty good.
Speaker 3:La, la, la, la la.
Speaker 1:The intelligence is palpable.
Speaker 8:La, la, la, la la.
Speaker 1:Oh, the intense content Intelligence is palpable. Ubi ubi, wala, ubi, wala, wala.
Speaker 8:Oh, the intense content Ubi ubi, wala, ubi wala wala Early morning singing. Okay, welcome back.
Speaker 4:Wasn't that like Willy Wonka or something like that? I have no idea, that is.
Speaker 1:I like the song actually, but it's just silly Rudy jump in.
Speaker 4:We're talking about. What are you talking about? Set it up, set it up, I forgot, you forgot. We're talking about as we think about our common life together. That's right. Do we have anything in common? Do we have anything in common and are we just all a bunch of 350 million individuals running around here? Or can we agree on anything at all about what truth is? Let's say, or is there a good life or is there a path to a good life?
Speaker 1:can we, as human beings, that that's where my answer is no, Rudy. What's your comment?
Speaker 5:I think that most Americans can probably agree that they want individual rights and freedoms. I think the issue is to what extent does my freedom begin and yours end, right? I think that's where we kind of lose the buck a little bit. End, right? I think that's where we kind of lose the buck a little bit. I think that with, of course, social media technology, let's say there's been a lot of I want to call sort of a revision of history, right, much of the sort of American, let's say, way of life.
Speaker 5:You had a particular, I don't want to necessarily say narrative, but there was this kind of notion that you were taught in school about civic duties, I mean the Pledge of Allegiance. There were things that were done from a very early age to make you feel that you were part of a country, that you were American. And, yes, americans come from all different shapes, colors and everything. But within the last, particularly 20 years I think, and the last really 10, 15, man, it's just really turned sideways here. Man, it's just really turned sideways here. And these diversity, inclusion and equality narratives, and they've kind of turned this thing on its head right, and I think it's twofold right. I think, particularly during the 50s and 60s, americans were very focused on external things. Right, you had communists, you had the Soviet Union, you had the Nazis, you had Vietnam, you had the nuclear bombs right.
Speaker 5:You had the nuclear threat you had the nuclear bombs, the nuclear threat, so there was all these things going on outside the United States, right, and the enemy was out there, but we were here, right was out there, but we were here, right. But now whether we're sort of victims of our own success, if you will, right, then everything's kind of been flipped on its head and now we've kind of turned inwardly and started sort of discombobulating everything within our culture and segmenting, fragmenting everything, discombobulating everything within our culture and segmenting, fragmenting everything. But I mean, isn't it expected, when you've created a society where you value so much freedom, individual freedom, right, I mean, which is? I don't think so, I don't think so.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I don't think so.
Speaker 4:Rudy, I don't think so. I don't think we can talk about freedom without talking about everybody being free. Right, it's not my freedom, it is our freedom, our freedom to gather, our freedom to worship, our freedom to do this or that. It's not my freedom as opposed to yours. I mean, we can always pit things against that way and the courts maybe have to sort those out, but by and large, I think we understand that these freedoms are things that we share, right, as opposed to the things that really separate us.
Speaker 1:I agree, I agree. The problem right here is that you know and I hate to be the philosopher here but underneath all of this is what's called post-modernism, and post-modernism basically says nothing is true for everyone. Nothing is true for everyone. Listen to this, because this is where the collision happens. The Christian church helps Christians faithful Christian faithful to speak about political and social questions by insisting now, listen to this on the existence of objective moral norms which are valid for everyone and by providing guidance on applying these norms in the public square. The problem is that that's the heart of the disagreement, because in postmodernism, the philosophy that is very popular in colleges is that there is no objective truth, that the only thing that exists is your perspective and therefore, if you come to the point of saying my perspective governs my entire reality, we have nothing to talk about, because there is nothing that we say is morally true for both you and me, independent of whether we like it or not.
Speaker 4:Wouldn't you agree, David? Yeah, I would think so, I mean. Yeah, I mean, I think that is a part of the problem. It definitely is that the idea that there is no objective truth stands in. It stands opposite of reason in a way.
Speaker 4:It is reasonable for us to say that certain things are objectively true. And if certain things like two plus two is four, right, is that objectively true or not? If that's objectively true, then maybe something else is objectively true. And if certain things like 2 plus 2 is 4, right, is that objectively true or not? If that's objectively true, then maybe something else is objectively true. And E equals MC squared is maybe true. And then, all of a sudden, we've got several things that are objectively true. So then we begin to add on to that. Now we're talking about moral truth. Moral truth might be of a different category, but I think most people in the world would agree, would say is objectively true that murder, first degree premeditated murder, is wrong. It's not just wrong for some people, it's wrong for everybody. Right, it's even wrong if you're Netanyahu, because they want Netanyahu to go to jail because of certain things.
Speaker 1:Except what if I decide that my premeditated murder of you based on religious grounds?
Speaker 4:That would be wrong.
Speaker 1:Well, you need to understand that there is a religion, some members of a religion in this world, mainly Islam that if you choose to leave Islam not all Muslims, but many Muslims you are justified to be killed. And so I don't know that premeditated murder, besides the death penalty, is premeditated murder. It is, but it's different, but it's justified by the fact that it's not an innocent person.
Speaker 4:That's true, there are objective sort of ideas about innocence and guilty.
Speaker 1:But Islam in not all cases. I want to say that I'm not talking about individual muslims, right, I'm talking about some understanding. Basic understanding of islam says that to deny islam, if you're an, if you're a muslim, that that is a capital offense. And the issue is is that a moral, uh, moral, an objective truth? And of course, we would say no.
Speaker 4:We would say no, and I think that many, many, there are probably some that would agree with that, but I don't know how many. Enough that it's created all sorts of terroristic issues and problems, not only for Muslims, but also for the West.
Speaker 1:The issue I want us to understand is that what we're dealing with is the fact that we have almost no basis of applying objective moral norms to the public square. I mean down to the point of what's a woman, what's a man who can go into a bathroom? When does human life begin? I mean, we've got all kinds of stuff like that. We don't share anything and therefore the church I think the Christian church has the responsibility to get into that dialogue and to say no, there is objective moral norms. Rui, you want to say a couple things on that.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I think this kind of plays into what the rabbi was saying last week too, right, I think not enough of us are standing up and playing that crucial role right In helping educate and form that, that societal, let's say, consciousness. And we're called as Catholics right to participate in the formation of the societal moral consciousness, if you will. And and and I mean you said that we don't have a mechanism where you know man's a woman. I mean, I would say that there is one, but unfortunately the powers that be, let's say, have manipulated the narrative in such a way that they've assigned this criteria for evaluating things, let's say the Christian religion and let's say the small C-right Catholic, and they've turned that around and that's seen as something that holds this kind of patriarchy power, oppressive, this kind of thing that it's all interpreted in a prism of saying everything is power.
Speaker 1:If you're proposing something that you say is right, all you're trying to do is overpower me to make your truth right, but in and of itself there is no truth. That's the whole idea of postmodernism. It's called relativism.
Speaker 4:Well, one of the things that I liked about this document is it says that the church has the opportunity and the duty to help shape the consciences of the society, not only its parishioners and its members, but also society itself, and so that we should be in that space, we should be in the public square, we should be in these conversations, we should not be segregated outside of these congregations, and this is what is happening in a lot of places around the country right now. It's very difficult if you're a Catholic Christian or if you're a Protestant Christian, orthodox Christian, to be invited to have tenure at some of the most elite universities. A lot of people believe that one of the biggest risks that we have now is between people who are educated and people who are quote uneducated, but that doesn't mean they're stupid. It just means that they don't think like the elite do in Princeton and Harvard and places like that. At any rate, we've got to go to a break.
Speaker 1:This is 1070 KNTH and we'll be right back.
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Speaker 1:The Answer Welcome. Welcome back to the show of faith here on 1070 KNTH. Where did we leave off? Well, let me bring something up new. Okay, Listen to this part of the document and I want both of your reactions to it. I want both of your reactions to it. A well-formed Christian conscience does not permit voting for a political program or law that contradicts the fundamental contents of faith and morals.
Speaker 4:All right, say that again.
Speaker 1:A well-formed Christian conscience does not permit voting for a political program or law that contradicts the fundamental contents of faith or morals. In other words, like for me, I cannot. To me, the dignity of each human being is primary.
Speaker 4:From cradle or before, from conception to the grave.
Speaker 1:That's right. That's why I cannot, in good conscience, vote for any Democrat. Now there are some.
Speaker 4:Democrats who are opposed to abortion.
Speaker 1:If they would be opposed to that, I can consider them. But when a person tells me that they are for the killing of human beings in abortion, I can no longer vote for that person, because that, to me, is the fundamental understanding of the basis of human dignity the individual person.
Speaker 4:the individual human person and the individual person has the right to life.
Speaker 1:That's right so I cannot. I cannot now. I would vote democratic if, if I could find a good democratic candidate, because actually I like some of the social issues that the Democrats talk about.
Speaker 4:Well, see, that's part of it, because a part of what the definition of redemption is is that it's not just about the spiritual side of a person, it's about there's a social dimension as well, and one of the things the Catholic Church discusses probably better than just about any other Christian denomination, I know is that the protection of the poor, the protection of immigrants, the protection of just individuals and people and groups of people who live among us, who are different and who are most at risk, as it were yes, the most vulnerable, I guess is the term that we often hear, and, in fact, caring for the dignity of those people matters. That's right.
Speaker 1:Yes, and that's an important part of that as well, rudy.
Speaker 5:The USCPB, the United States Catholic Conference of Bishops, says this a little further down Conscience is not a justification for personal desires, but rather the voice of God guiding individuals to make sound moral judgments based on faith and reason, and I think that's something to understand. Right is when we align ourselves properly. As I understand it, right and has been handed down through sacred mission, the teachings of Jesus Christ, then I become, then, a vehicle of his will to propagate that will to become part of the fabric, of the social fabric in our culture today. To do good, right To do an objective good, not what we currently interpret as a good in today's day and age, which is something that comes and goes.
Speaker 4:It's good for me, that's good for me.
Speaker 1:You know I want to contribute this little part, this little paragraph, because a lot of people today would say I don't have a political home. You know they find things in the Democratic Party that are very objectionable or in the Republican Party that are very objectionable. So what do you do when you find objectionable issues in both sides? And this paragraph is very interesting, it's advice to that. It says in situations where all candidates promote an intrinsically evil act, a voter may decide not to vote for any candidate or vote for the one who is less likely to advance such a morally flawed position and more likely to pursue other authentic human goods. So, in other words, vote the lesser of two evils.
Speaker 4:So go into the booth and hold your nose and vote.
Speaker 1:Hold your nose and vote.
Speaker 4:Right, yeah, I was talking to NT Wright recently in England and we were doing a project together and we were talking about that because he was talking about the elections and there was an election recently for prime minister or such over in England and I asked him. I said how do you guys view these things? He says, well, basically we look at both candidates, we decide who is the least worst, who is the least worst candidate that we can vote for, and in a sense, that's what this document was saying as well.
Speaker 1:In very academic language.
Speaker 4:Yes, very academic language, yes, a very academic language. What do you mean by intrinsically evil? Because that was a key thing that was there, that certain actions, certain moral policies.
Speaker 1:Intrinsic evil is an action that is not morally admissible in any circumstance, for example, the intentional killing of an innocent person. That is not morally admissible in any circumstance, for example, the intentional killing of an innocent person. That is an intrinsic evil.
Speaker 4:So if you advocated for that?
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 4:In any sort of way. If you were to say that everybody that turns 90 years old we should put an end to their life because we don't have enough resources, that's right. So if you advocated for that, that would be intrinsically evil.
Speaker 1:Abortion is an intrinsic evil. Why? Because you are killing an innocent human being, so it's an intrinsic evil. You never consciously go to abort a child, to kill a child.
Speaker 4:So, going back to this statement again, read it one more time because I want to make sure I understand, okay, because?
Speaker 1:it talks about sort of both candidates. Let me put my glasses on. In situations where all candidates promote an intrinsically evil act, a voter may decide not to vote for any candidate or to vote for the one who is less likely to advance such morally flawed positions and more likely to pursue authentic human goods.
Speaker 4:Okay. So if you're convinced that both are wrong-headed and they're going to lead to some intrinsic evil, then you either don't vote or you vote for the one who you say has a less of a good chance of actually enacting that moral idea.
Speaker 1:Yeah, listen, listen to this. This is another paragraph that comments on that catholic christians are not single issue voters, but a candidate's position on a single issue that promotes an intrinsically evil act, such as legal abortion or racist behavior, may be a legitimate reason to disqualify them from receiving support.
Speaker 4:Does that mean financial support? No, I mean voting support?
Speaker 1:Oh okay, I think that's what it means. Will you comment Voting support? Oh okay, I think that's why they came.
Speaker 5:Any comment. I think you said it correctly, wally, when you said we're not single-issue voters, right. But when we talk about intrinsic evil right then unfortunately, as the current sort of political polarization has boiled down to, that's kind of the way it seems now, right, I mean, abortion is a big one, immigration is a big one, right, and unfortunately, a lot of Catholics. It's kind of interesting because when you look at voter turnout, catholics are really split down 50-50, democrats, republicans, right. And here's, you know, one of the, let's say, highest authority. I mean I don't know if I would say the highest authority. The highest authority is, of course, god and then the Pope. But within the Catholic Church in the United States, the USCCB makes a lot of decisions, right, I mean, it publishes a lot of articles, it publishes what the Church is propagating in the United States, right, and here it's clearly saying that any party or any candidate that stands for an intrinsic evil has to be immediately discarded, right? So you know, to me it's unfortunate that a lot of Catholics don't participate in that same value system.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we're just about out of time here, but what was interesting in that article is they mentioned both abortion and racism. It's interesting that the Democratic Party is typically on the abortion side and now the charges being made against the former president, president Trump, is that he has these racial tensions which he doesn't, which I don't, yeah, Well, let me finish the discussion by reading one last paragraph, which I think is expressive of where all of us are.
Speaker 1:The Christian church is involved in the political process, but remains nonpartisan, focusing on defending human life and dignity and protecting the weak and vulnerable, rather than championing specific candidates or parties. That's what we do. We spend time championing ideas moral causes moral causes and trying to format the question to help the consciences of people. That's our job and we must be involved in the political process doing that.
Speaker 4:So well, okay, interesting. Yeah, we are done Very good, this is next week.
Speaker 1:David, you're on the hot seat.
Speaker 4:I'm on the show. Yeah, yeah, hey. Next week we have a great lecture coming up at the Lendinger Theological Library. Why don't you just go to our website find out more about it? Gary Habermas is going to be with us. Oh, the Harry Harrow Mass. Yeah, the resurrection of Jesus.
Speaker 1:Very good. Okay, this is KNTH 1070. You've been listening to the Show of Faith and during this week, we're going to ask you to keep us in your prayers. You know why? Because you are going to be in ours.