A Show of Faith
Millennial, Priest, Minister, and Rabbi walk into a radio station...
A Show of Faith
December 8, 2024 Religion, Philosophy, and the Quest for Meaning in Modern Life
What if atheists and theists alike are guided by a form of religion or philosophy? Join Rabbi Stuart Federo and Fr. Mario Arroyo as they unpack this intriguing notion, discussing the complex tapestry of belief systems that influence our lives, from secularism to Buddhism. Through the lens of these diverse philosophies, we grapple with life's essential questions: origins, purpose, morality, and the mystery of what lies beyond death. Woven throughout this deep discourse is Fr. Mario's humorous take on allergy struggles, a reminder of our shared human experiences amid profound exploration.
Discover how the word "religion" itself implies a reconnection, beckoning us to re-examine our ties to the divine, the universe, or nature. We dissect the etymology of "religion" and explore the foundational questions it seeks to answer. Through a comparative journey of Jewish and Christian perspectives, we consider different paths to understanding life's purpose and moral frameworks. Our exploration offers a fresh perspective on how these ancient questions permeate our existence, urging listeners to reconsider the ultimate concerns and connections that guide them.
As we ponder the fate of the universe and the nature of eternal punishment and forgiveness, our conversation veers from scientific theories to spiritual beliefs. We tackle moral relativism, the necessity of an external moral authority, and the ultimate destiny of the universe, contrasting varied scientific and religious insights. This episode invites you to reflect on the importance of mercy, repentance, and the transformative power of belief, rounding off a thought-provoking dialogue that intertwines the cosmic with the everyday.
Nothing happening here. What it is ain't exactly clear man with a gun over there Telling me well, I got to beware. I think it's time to stop.
Speaker 2:What's that sound? Everybody look what's going down.
Speaker 1:There's bad lines being drawn. Nobody's right, everybody's wrong. People speak in their minds.
Speaker 3:So much resistance from behind.
Speaker 4:Stop what's that sound? Everybody look what's going down.
Speaker 1:Welcome to A Show of Faith where a professor, priest, millennial and rabbi discuss theology and philosophy and anything else of interest in religion. If you have any response to our topics or any comments regarding what we say, we would love to hear from you. Please email us at ashowoffaithathotmailcom. Ashowoffaithathotmailcom. You can hear our shows again and again by listening pretty much anywhere podcasts are heard. Our priest is Fr Mario Arroyo, retired pastor of St Cyril of Alexandria in the 10,000 block of Westheimer. Good to be here. Our professor is David Capes, baptist minister and director of academic programming for the Lanier Theological Library, but he cannot be here. I am Rabbi Stuart Federo, retired rabbi from Ar HaShalom in the Clear Lake area of Houston, texas. Jim Robinson is our producer and engineer. He's the author of the book I Am With you Always, matthew 2820, a daily devotional. Corey and Miranda are our board operators and together, jim and Miranda and Corey, help us sound fantastic Because we are Of course Absolutely Of course Well, mario you're it Once more time.
Speaker 3:I am, I am and actually I'm really kind of excited about what we're going to do tonight, because this is something, a subject that is near and dear to my heart. Okay, and the question is first of all, I want to spend just a little time talking about what we mean by the word, what I'm choosing to mean by the word religion, during our discussion, because there are many different definitions of religion and, if you get, if we don't define the term, this is Well, we know that there's only one definition and that's yours.
Speaker 1:That's correct.
Speaker 3:Thank you, well, we know that there's only one definition and that's yours. That's correct, thank you, but anyway. So, and then we're going to, basically, once we agree on the definition of religion, then we will talk about what are the four basic questions that have to be answered by your religion. And it is my contention that everybody has a religion. Oh yeah, everybody, including atheists and people who say they have no religion. They have a religion. That's why we need to identify, to define the concept.
Speaker 1:Right. There are those who will say that Buddhism isn't a religion, or Islam is not a religion it's a way of life. There are people who say that about Judaism too.
Speaker 3:Well, atheism is a way of life, you know, secularism is a way of life, a way of life, yes, you know, pragmatism is a way of life and answers in their own way the four questions that you're bringing forth. That is correct.
Speaker 1:So let's begin with a number. You'll have to excuse me. My allergies have been really. Oh, mario. My doctor told me that ragweed came, you know, sprouted with their pollen, two months early this year.
Speaker 3:Well, let me tell you, my allergies have really been going crazy.
Speaker 1:I apologize to all the people in the audience, but Mario Show of Faith has to apologize every week for our show anyway. What can you do?
Speaker 3:Anyway, let's begin with the definition of religion. I always like to depart from etymology. I am the etymology king of etymologies. I know that words develop and words migrate, but it's always, I find, it interesting, that when you study words, even though words may migrate or change, meanings Evolve, evolve, but it's always important to study their archaeology. It's the archaeology of language. In other words, if they migrate from one thing to another, it means that they once meant something and then they evolved slowly into something else.
Speaker 1:But I think that knowing their etymology gives us an insight into the word and its usage, that is correct.
Speaker 3:That is correct. So I want to begin with the word, taking the word religion apart.
Speaker 1:Right, and our long-time listeners know what you're going to say.
Speaker 3:That's right, okay, so the word. For those of you who have never heard this before, the word religion is actually a very simple etymology and, by the way, etymology is the study of the origin of words, not entymology. That brought me buggy. Yes, entymology is the study of insects. Etymology is the study of words. So the word religion. The first thing you begin with is taking the word apart, and the word comes apart in two places Re. Anytime you have the word re or the prefix re in front of anything, it always means do it again. So, for example, rewrite.
Speaker 1:Reframe rewrite.
Speaker 3:Repaint, restudy Redo, redo, whatever, okay. So re already means do it again, okay. Then you have ligion, and the word ligion is a form of the word ligio or ligia. It's interesting because in Spanish the word liga means rubber band.
Speaker 4:Really.
Speaker 3:It means rubber band, and so the word ligare or ligio means to bind together. That's why, for example, you have the baseball league, oh wow. Or you have the football.
Speaker 1:I've never said that before.
Speaker 3:Yeah, football league League from the word lig, right, or the League of Women Voters, right, okay. So that's basically the word ligad, or league means to bind together, right. So now put the two parts together Re ligio, reconnect, reconnect. Now the question that you have to ask. Well, wait a minute, two things. One, if you're going to reconnect something, that means two things. One is what are you trying to reconnect? And second, why do you have to reconnect them? Why can't you just connect them instead of having to reconnect them? Why can't you just connect them instead of having to reconnect them? The connection that we're talking about is you, the human person, to what others have called the ultimate concern or the ultimate root of all reality. All reality at its source has something. We don't know what it is, but we know human beings have known that we are in some way or another disconnected from the original center of reality. Whatever that is.
Speaker 3:Let's just not even define it. We are disconnected from whatever the center of reality is. Some people call it God, some people call it the universe, some people call it luck.
Speaker 1:And you may even limit it to we're disconnected from each other, could be Disconnected from nature. We're disconnected from each other. Could be Disconnected from nature. We're disconnected.
Speaker 3:Okay, so religio means reconnect. Now, that ultimate reality that we know is above, because we know we are what's called a conditional reality. Okay, conditional reality means we are not. We are not, we don't exist because we have to exist. We have been brought into being and we will go out of being when we die right, but that's a later question. Yes, but that's it's. It's basically, in other words, is we are contingent, meaning we are caused by something else, but we did not cause ourselves and we are not the center of reality.
Speaker 3:Some people think they are but we're not the center of reality. So we know we're disconnected. We know we're disconnected. The question is so, for us, then, religio? Religion means to reconnect in whatever way you choose, to reconnect to the ultimate question, the answers to the ultimate questions of reality. Right, the answers to the ultimate questions of reality. Now, what we're going to be spending our time talking about tonight are the there's several ways of phrasing this, and some people say 10 questions, some people say five, some people say six. Tonight, we got four Tonight, we just chose four. Okay. And the four questions of reality that are ultimate questions for reality are this Number one how did life come to be in the first place?
Speaker 3:Questions about existence and character of God and or of higher power. Okay, I have a little more expanded than I said. All right, okay. Second, the second question is what is the meaning of life, the purpose of life? And it inquires, master, why we exist and what our lives should aim to be in this world. Three how should I choose from right or from wrong? What makes anything right?
Speaker 1:How do we know how to act?
Speaker 3:How do we know how to act? Yeah, and fourth, what happens after death? How does this all end? Where is it going? Okay, and so the way that you got them, rabbi, I sent them to you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which created a different kind of answer. Why don't you read them the way that Well, it's a different way of stating the same thing you're asking, but that's right, but it still leads to different questions, different answers.
Speaker 1:The first one, the way you originally had it worded, is the question of origin where did I come from right? The second question was a question of destiny where am I going, great? The third question was a question of purpose why am I here, right? And the fourth question is a question of morality how do we act? How do we live?
Speaker 3:how do we? Let's go with these formulations.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right, okay, so now remember, you'd probably prefer to go by your formulation than the original one, right, because I know how I'm going to answer okay, okay, so then we remember I'm talking about.
Speaker 3:Religio means every single human being has to answer in some way or another. All these four questions. I don't care if you answer them without God or with God, or however you answer them Right, but you have to answer them. So the first question is how did life come to be in the first place? Which is basically questions about existence and if there is a god or not, or a higher power, whatever it is. What is the jewish position on that?
Speaker 1:again the way you worded it the first time or the way you're wording it now. Now, well, from god, guy in the beginning, god.
Speaker 3:So, uh, the first three words, so the word god that let's say. If I say to you, god is a category, okay, what? Who is it that fills the category? Well, how do you?
Speaker 1:what do we know about god? Is that what you're asking? Yeah, which god?
Speaker 3:which god, the only god, which God?
Speaker 1:Which God, darrell Bock, the only God. There's only one God.
Speaker 3:Richard Averbeck. I know, but there's a lot of concepts of God, darrell Bock.
Speaker 1:Ah, once you get to the concept. Now you're delineating between groups. Richard Averbeck yes, darrell Bock Okay. So well, there are certain characteristics I think that we all have in our definition or in our understanding of God. I think that we would all say that God is personal. Okay.
Speaker 3:What do you mean? We all would say that somewhere or another.
Speaker 1:If we have a concept of God, then we usually have an accompanying idea that God can know who Stuart Federer is. Okay. And that in Stuart Federer's limited ability I can also know God.
Speaker 3:I would like to just resist a little bit. If God is a category, can that category be filled with a non-personal existence?
Speaker 1:Can it or doesn't? Can it? Well, it can. Okay, then, all I'm saying is you're reflecting, you can have a rock, and so the rock is God.
Speaker 3:That's exactly what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:That's why I'm saying you as a Jew, yes, and I as a Christian, yes. Would personalize the content of that word Clearly, okay, but not everybody would, and that's true.
Speaker 1:Okay, but.
Speaker 3:I want to be able to make sure that we include them, but then specifically talk about us Right and our perspectives and our perspectives.
Speaker 1:So I would say God is personal. Can know Stuart Ferrell. Stuart Ferrell, as I said in my own limited ability, can know who God is and know about God. Stuart Federer Stuart Federer, as I said in my own limited ability, can know who God is and know about God. Okay, I can read what I consider a text. That is, however you want to understand it, from God, divine, inspired God. Whatever words you want to use. Okay, somewhere along the line you have to say it's from God. Okay, if it's authoritative.
Speaker 3:So you're talking about a personal God? Yes, and we have to go to a break, but we'll continue on this because we're going to get through all these four of these questions. Okay, this is KNTH 1070, and we'll be right back.
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Speaker 4:Johnny Angel, johnny Angel, johnny Angel, you're an angel to me. Shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up, johnny Angel, how I love you, how I tingle when it bounces by. Every time it says hello, my heart begins to fly. Johnny Angel, how I want him. He's got something that I can't resist, but he doesn't even know that I exist. Shut up, shut up. I'm in heaven. I get carried away. I dream of him and me and how it's gonna be. Other fellas call me up for a date, but I just sit and wait. I'd rather concentrate on Johnny, cause I love him and I pray that someday he'll love me, and together we will see how lovely heaven will be. And together we will see how lovely heaven will be. Yeah.
Speaker 1:She sounds. When I say exactly like Karen Carpenter, I mean exactly like Karen Carpenter.
Speaker 3:If you can find her.
Speaker 1:And I'm going to send it to you and try to remember to do that. Welcome back to A Show of Faith.
Speaker 3:Welcome back. Now we're talking about the four basic questions that every single human being must answer in terms of what religion is, and the four basic questions are basically where did I come from, what's the purpose of my life, how should I decide right from wrong and what happens at the end when you die?
Speaker 1:Because these are the eternal questions human beings have been asking, since we've been human beings. That's correct.
Speaker 3:Now the Christian. You gave your Jewish answer and the Christian would give a similar answer, of course, because we consider ourselves the sons or daughters of the Jewish religion.
Speaker 1:Okay, Fool that you are, but yes, I understand that you believe that? Even though it's not true. I know we believe that, even though, but, mario, it's not just personal, okay, it's personal and loving, yes, but what is derived from that love Moral God is moral, yes, okay, god is supernatural. That love moral god is moral, yes, okay, uh, god is, uh, supra natural, above and outside of nature, is correct, okay, all of these can be derived from, okay. So we consider to be from the bible.
Speaker 3:So we're, and h is holy, okay but we are on, we are in agreement. Now we recognize that, even though you gave a jew, jewish answer and I gave a Christian answer, you were about to yes, well, basically, the only thing is, it's basically the same.
Speaker 1:That's what I said. It was overlapping.
Speaker 3:Although you know, it's interesting because the identity of God is slightly different between the Jewish and the Christian.
Speaker 1:Well, radically different, I would say, but yes, radically different, okay.
Speaker 3:Because we believe in the one triune God and you believe in the one single God.
Speaker 1:And to us.
Speaker 3:I think you told me one time that you couldn't say for a Jew, you couldn't say God is love.
Speaker 1:Because God is so much more.
Speaker 3:God is not only love. Yeah, see, for us God is love because he is triune and Christianity, god is exclusively love. Well, not love as we understand it in as a human being. But I don't want to get into not now yeah, that's a different topic.
Speaker 3:Okay so, but we recognize that whether you believe in a personal god, if you don't believe in a personal god, you still believe in a god, because whatever you put there at the top of your worship, however you put the box in the box, however you fill that box Right, that's God. If popularity is, if money is, whatever you put there, whatever you put, there. Because what we're talking about is really, ultimately, how did the universe begin? Because you can't say some people say the universe is eternal.
Speaker 1:Where do we come from?
Speaker 3:The universe is not eternal, because it's been shown by the Big Bang Theory that the universe is expanding.
Speaker 1:And continues to expand.
Speaker 3:And so we know that the universe is not eternal. We know that the universe had a beginning point and, as my little limerick which I'll say it right now, because there are people who say well, at the beginning it just went bang, the big bang, and I always ask well, what went bang? You can't have nothing go bang. And my little limerick is this it goes like this In the beginning there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing. Then, one day, for no reason, nothing exploded into everything, which then became dinosaurs. Makes perfect sense. Of course, that's sarcastic.
Speaker 1:That's a simplification, but nevertheless.
Speaker 3:Nevertheless. Okay, so that's the first question. We answer it with a personal God, but we know that whoever answers that can answer whatever you put in that box.
Speaker 1:That's how we put in the box, but the point that I was making is that's where we come from In the beginning God, god, god created. That's right.
Speaker 3:Okay, second question what is the purpose of my oh, rudy, rudy.
Speaker 1:Rudy, are you there?
Speaker 3:I am Yay. Okay, let's go with a second question. I don't want to get behind, Rudy, you're first. What is the purpose of my life? Inquires into why we exist and what our lives should be to achieve. What are you supposed to achieve? What's the point? How would you answer it from the Christian point of perspective?
Speaker 10:from the Christian point of perspective, from the Catholic and Christian and, of course, my point of view, I would say my ultimate. Where am I going right? And we're talking about destiny. My goal is to reach heaven. My goal is something that we, as Catholics, we call the beatific vision.
Speaker 3:Right, yes, say that again the beatific vision, the vision of God.
Speaker 10:The vision of God right, and it talks about it in Corinthians right, but essentially it's to live eternally with God. That is my ultimate destiny.
Speaker 3:How would you say it, Stuart, as a Jew?
Speaker 1:I would not say purpose is to live with God, but I would say the purpose in Judaism is to bring God on earth and to make the mundane and profane holy. So, for example, you have seven days that make up a week. Okay, moon cycle is seven times four is 28. So seven a week. So we take one day out of the mundane, profane, typical, common, whatever day. We take one out of seven, set it apart, make it different from the other six, and we call it the Sabbath. So we're taking time and making time holy. Or let's say, a person is about to eat a meal okay, this is almost true with all religions, by the way but it's a meal, it's a, it's common, it's every day until we invoke God, we bring God into the issue and that makes it sanctified. Set apart, different, holy, that's what holy means set apart. So our purpose is to take the mundane, profane, typical, common, whatever word you want to use and make it holy.
Speaker 3:Okay, we've got to go to a break, and then next time we have two larger segments. This is KNTH 1070, and we'll be right back.
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Speaker 1:Welcome back to A Show of Faith.
Speaker 3:Okay, so we're dealing with number two, but we're going to go on to number three very quickly. Number two is to what is the purpose of life. Stuart and I were talking during the break and we have a distinction between Protestant Christianity and David's not here to defend himself.
Speaker 1:David's not here.
Speaker 3:but that's okay, we will try to do the best. Remember Protestants are like miscellaneous.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:There's all kinds of Protestants 30,000, but who's counting? Yeah, Catholic is very different, David. I mean Stuart was criticizing the Protestant belief. That the only reason that I care about is getting to heaven Is getting to heaven what?
Speaker 1:gets my soul to heaven. Period the faith that's right. Faith, faith, faith.
Speaker 3:And that is not a Catholic point of view. The Catholic point of view is that we are a desire to go to be with the Lord in heaven, but I said it this way. We do. We, as Catholics, do believe that you are saved by faith alone. However, the kind of faith that saves you is not alone. It has to be out with your behavior.
Speaker 3:It's the james and peter argument that is correct, right, and because a lot of people talk about what's called eternal security, which means if I believe in the Lord Jesus, that's it which you told me was Bonhoeffer labeled cheap grace. Cheap grace, rudy, you want to add anything to that?
Speaker 10:well, I mean directly to what you were talking about. I think a lot of it stems. There's a great episode that I listened to recently about Jordan Peterson and he's talking, he's doing this whole thing with the Old Testament, but he talks about belief and one of the things he says is for one, for you to say that you believe something right and to genuinely mean it. That means you act, speak and move in a particular way. Right, I mean, it's not just, yes, we are saved by faith alone, absolutely right. And it's God's grace that, at the end of the day, that we have faith in period. We have faith in period like there's, there's no question about that, right, but there's, there's, there's, there's a lot to that that comes with actually believing and having faith that I think a lot of people don't talk about it I I often like to use this example.
Speaker 3:I can say I believe in the in in the eiffel. I've never seen it, but I believe it exists Now. If tomorrow somebody said to me Father, it was all photoshopped, there is no such thing, that wouldn't affect me in the least.
Speaker 1:In the least, mario. Did you ever read an essay? There's no Such Thing as Montana.
Speaker 3:No, because I've never seen it.
Speaker 1:It's the same Same thing.
Speaker 3:But if the doctor came in right before surgery on my brain and he explained to me it's a dangerous surgery, and I said to the doctor I believe in you. That's a different way of saying I believe, Because I used to say I believe in the Eiffel Tower, but it makes no difference to me whether it exists or not.
Speaker 1:That's part of the mistranslations of the Hebrew the Bible. Okay, it's more trust than it is faith. That is correct, right.
Speaker 3:That is correct.
Speaker 1:Okay, emunah.
Speaker 3:Okay, let's move on to question number three. Right, because number three this is on the third block right now and we should be answering this one. Basically, it's the question of morality. Right, how should you choose between right and wrong? Because, you see, as Dostoevsky I think it was who said yes, without God all is permitted.
Speaker 3:Whatever is, whatever Right. Because the moment you say this is right and this is wrong, I can say to you who died and left you in charge Okay, right. So the moment you say, morality, that there is anything right or wrong, you're already presuming an opposite.
Speaker 1:Well, Mario, what's right to you Is right for you.
Speaker 3:And what's right to me is right for me Right.
Speaker 1:Right and your morality is for you, but your morality is not for me.
Speaker 3:You know, that's what's called relativism, and it's very popular.
Speaker 1:You know, I could say, well, that's your right and this is my right, yeah, but all of a sudden, we talk about this regularly, but you know what I've concluded with that, what that's for people who don't know how to say the word no to someone else.
Speaker 7:Yep.
Speaker 1:They don't know how to say you're wrong or I disagree, or they're spineless.
Speaker 3:That's correct, and the reason you have to have God is because if there is no one, if there is no referee, everything goes and the authority has to be outside of the humans and above the humans.
Speaker 1:That's correct, right.
Speaker 10:Rudy, jump in. Yeah, you know I hate to agree with the rabbi here.
Speaker 10:We're just showing you intelligence. But I think, rabbi, you're absolutely right, I think it's for spineless people, because even you know, I've talked to some staunch atheists, okay, and when they start talking about and they give me quasi-even rational arguments about why they don't believe something and why they don't think there's a God, you know, but to me it demonstrates people that have actually sat down and thought about something you know, and I think that's the difference. I think too many people, unfortunately, are caught up in this sort of emotional assault, if you will.
Speaker 3:that's going on Well when they try to justify it, it's not even a thing, yeah, and I think they just fail to really think about anything.
Speaker 10:You know, it's just shallow in my mind. I mean, there's a great scripture saying I'd rather you be cold than lukewarm.
Speaker 1:You know, and I think that's the true reality, now more than ever. Rudy, would you please talk about that reference, though You're actually referencing a New Testament quote.
Speaker 3:Yeah that reference is from the book of revelation and it actually says uh, because you are neither hot nor cold, I spit you out of my mouth. Comes from jesus in the book of revelation right. I just want to clarify chapter three, the book of revelation. Yeah, what we're dealing with is you know, if you're a relativist, a real relativist, you could not even say that Hitler was wrong.
Speaker 1:No. All you can say is you don't like what he did. No, that's right. Then somebody else could come along and say I do like what he did or. Stalin or anybody. I can write thou shalt not murder, and you can write thou shalt murder. And who's to say one of us is right and wrong except another human opinion, that's?
Speaker 3:right and we can dismiss that human opinion.
Speaker 1:This is called the moral proof for God, which is the one I happen to ascribe to the most.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the one that I happen to ascribe to the most is in the beginning there was nothing.
Speaker 5:Right.
Speaker 3:To me that's the central.
Speaker 1:Have you ever heard a devout atheist what I call the professional atheist try to defend the idea that they too have a moral base that is independent.
Speaker 3:It fails.
Speaker 1:To me. They're making so many quantum leaps, but I'm not here to defend them.
Speaker 3:I just wanted to ask you that. No, it fails, it fails.
Speaker 1:I've heard Hitchens or one of those guys try to say oh no, we don't have to have God to have morality, we have morality too. And then I don't even understand.
Speaker 3:But you know, you can have a morality, but it has to be enforced by the state, and the state exists because it has power and is and power corrupts and well, but you couldn't even call it corruption, because corruption is already a judgment.
Speaker 1:Oh, good point, okay absolutely right, because if you say it's corrupted power, who's to say what it's right? That is back to the state.
Speaker 3:That's right it goes back to the state. That's right. It goes back to the state, right. There's a philosopher oh God I always blank out on his name that always talks about if there is no God, there is a war of all against all, and the ultimate thing is just about power. It's just about power. So it's ultimately who has the most power and who can grab the most power in order to inflict.
Speaker 1:Or who can give them the best rationalization for the expression of power, that's correct.
Speaker 3:Right, that's correct okay yes let's go on to um. So we, we already, we know, we already know, we've answered number one. Number one is what? Where did reality come from? Where do I exist? We answered it from the Jewish perspective and from the Christian perspective Catholic, okay, yeah, yeah, catholic, christian perspective. Question number two was what is the purpose of life?
Speaker 1:And your answer was very good. In terms of Judaism is much more centered on the here and now. Yeah Right, judaism is much more centered on the here and now.
Speaker 3:We, as Christians, are centered on the here and now but I don't disagree with your.
Speaker 1:That's not our topic for tonight.
Speaker 3:No, but we've got a couple minutes on this one. It's not our topic, but I think you're right. Christians who focus just on the afterlife are really missing the point, missing the point of what Jesus taught. And then the three is the ethics, the question of ethics. What makes anything right or wrong.
Speaker 1:Now. But doesn't Catholicism have a belief in natural law? Yes, that there is some form of innate knowledge of good and evil in the human being. Yep, okay, yep, okay, yep, yep. That's not what Hitchens, or any of them, said when they tried to justify the existence of right and wrong within an atheist perspective. What do they say, mario? Seriously, I couldn't even recreate what they said.
Speaker 10:I'll give you an example Sam Harris, which is probably the most coherent atheist that I've listened to. He argues from this perspective that suffering can be neurologically and biologically measured. Right, because there's certain things that are released in the body when you get a pain, when you get a cut, when you get something.
Speaker 1:So, as a human race, right, his moral justification for understanding good is to reduce suffering or to working towards a reduction of suffering, but that automatically presupposes the idea that suffering is something that needs to be responded to and that in and of itself is a moral, ethical command. For lack of a better term, yeah, or to use Mario's word, it's a qualitative statement.
Speaker 10:It's like yeah, I agree, Rabbi yeah.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 10:Okay, that's the argument that I've heard the most. It comes to any type of sentence.
Speaker 1:Yeah so if.
Speaker 10:I'm we're still in ontological precepts.
Speaker 1:And this may be a little R-rated but if I am a masochist and I obtain pleasure by being hurt, then by that sentiment I should hurt you, yeah because I presume that's what you. A good thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it makes no sense. This is KNTH and we'll be right back after the break.
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Speaker 4:He was born in the summer of his 27th year, coming home to a place he'd never been before. He left yesterday behind. We might say he was born again. We might say he found the key forevermore.
Speaker 1:Welcome back to the show of faith.
Speaker 3:on AM 1070 Answer Okay now we're on to the last question, and the last question is about the end things. Now, the end things is well. I want to talk about the end things. Now, the end things is well. I want to talk about the end things in terms of human life. What happens after life, after this life, in other words, what happens to your life after death? Or, and also, what is the future of the universe according to different world views? Because the future of the universe is part of the answer as to, for example, is the universe to end millions of billions and billions of years from now into a cold, just emptiness, constantly drifting into outer space?
Speaker 1:What would be wrong with that?
Speaker 3:statement Well, no, no, that's the physical. I know, but in the Christian tradition we're talking about a new heavens and a new earth. Okay, that's the Christian tradition, right, but is that purely physical? Yes, not purely physical, because the whole idea of purely physical doesn't exist. Purely physical reality does not exist.
Speaker 1:The only thing that exists is the reality that I wish we had time to pursue that.
Speaker 3:The only thing that exists is the reality that God keeps in existence, and that's not purely physical, it's kept in existence by God.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:So if the universe is being held in existence by God, then it's legitimate to ask the question what would our understanding of God, our religion, say is the fate of the universe? And has that been told to us at all? And for us as Christians, we would say yes, there would be a new heavens and a new earth. And because, see for us, you have to remember this is where we depart very radically from each other in the fact that we understand that Jesus rose from the dead. And when he rose from the dead, he kept on saying touch me, do you have anything to eat? It was physical.
Speaker 1:Right, and there are other people in the Bible who are also resurrected, so resurrection isn't what's the big deal, I know, but the resurrected no one. Mario, in four, whatever you said. Billion years, Whatever, it is Okay. Are people going to exist? Yes, Not In four, whatever you said billion years.
Speaker 3:Whatever, it is Okay. Are people going to exist? Yes, not. We don't know In terms of physical reality.
Speaker 1:We don't know, okay, all right.
Speaker 3:We don't know, all right, okay, we don't know what will happen, right, even Jesus himself.
Speaker 1:But even if there's no physical existence, there's still.
Speaker 3:There's going to be the reality of us.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 3:And us is not going to be pure spirit it's going to be. The Catholic Church calls that a glorified body. Right, but we have to word things carefully. Yes, we do, okay.
Speaker 1:Yes, we do.
Speaker 3:Yes, we do is I want to acknowledge that for an atheist, the physical existence of the universe is that the universe will sort of continue to expand until it is infinitely expanding into nothingness, into so much space between everything I thought there were theories that it recontracts. That's another kind of theory, a different kind.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah it's another kind of theory, a different kind, okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's another kind of theory, another theory. Rudy, you're much more the science guy on this. Have you heard either of those two?
Speaker 10:Well, yeah, I mean a lot of. It depends what you prescribe to. But there's the sort of infinite oscillating theory. Then you've got string theory, where there's like infinite universes of creation, and then there's for some prescribed to an infinitely expanding universe. Some say that it's contracting. So I mean, there's just about anything for your flavor. Really Heck. Some don't even believe the Earth is round, that it's flat, and then who knows, you know so it's. There's all kinds of wacky stuff out there.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's kind of one of those things about science, isn't it? And whatever they agree on in 20 years can change to something completely different.
Speaker 3:Science is changing too, I think we can stand Absolutely. I still think we can stand in a certain amount of a certainty that the universe, that, for example, that the earth is not flat.
Speaker 10:I think you know there are some things that are not worth the opinion that they're written on thank you you would think you would think, father Martin, you would think, but don't underestimate the stupidity don't underestimate the power of the human mind to rationalize anything.
Speaker 3:But we can call them stupid, okay, we can call them stupid, okay, we don't have you can. You have the right to believe whatever you want, but you don't have the right to be taken seriously, right, okay, and we don't take those kinds of people seriously.
Speaker 1:That would make a great meme. Yeah, you can believe what you want, but we don't have the right to be taken seriously. Okay, and we don't take those kinds of people seriously. That would make a great meme. Yeah, you can believe what you want, but we don't have to take your beliefs seriously. That would make a great meme.
Speaker 3:I've said that you can believe anything you want, but you don't have the right to be taken seriously. Right, okay, and so we don't take those people seriously. And so the question is, given the fact that I think the Jews and Christians believe in the authenticity of science, Absolutely. Okay, and most atheists would believe in the authenticity of science. Okay, what are possible outcomes for the universe and for human beings? Where do you start? What is the possible outcome? Annihilation, but for the universe, rejection.
Speaker 10:The what, yeah for everything, unless you, annihilation. I mean the Earth is going to end, right. I mean the sun's going to burn out. We could be hit by an asteroid at any point in time, or a rogue radioactive wave that's flying across space. I mean, that's what we have to look forward to as an atheist, is just the eventual ticking time bomb of the destruction of the human race. Yes, I forget the name of this scale. I'll think about it, I'll send it to you guys, but there's a scale this doctor came up with. He actually wrote some science fiction.
Speaker 10:But, um, unless we learn to harness energy at gigantic sort of, um, uh size of energy, right of levels, then we can't. Some scientists aspire to this kind of, or this kind of transcendent, energy-based, um, civilization that we can become right, where we can sort of manipulate energy and matter. Um, but again, and then what right? I mean you're still left with the purpose question, like we can sit here and argue about the infinite oscillation of the universe and what do we do, but you still have to answer the particular purpose of what your life is about. Unless your life means nothing, then, as Nietzsche said, you might as well just end it, because it's just all suffering. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because there's no way, other way to interpret this. It's not just suffering, there's still joy and laughter and humor and love, and at the very end is total destruction but without purpose. There's total destruction of the physical, but you're telling me that they don't, that catholicism doesn't believe in the spiritual.
Speaker 3:Oh, no, no no, or the afterlife we do, but Well, there you go, so it's not just physical. You see, you keep making this distinction between the physical and the spiritual, and we do not believe that the human being can exist fully without this body, without a body. We don't believe in free-floating spirits, we believe in the resurrection of the body.
Speaker 1:In the time of the resurrection, but until the resurrection occurs what happens to the soul?
Speaker 3:Yes, the soul gets a body in the afterlife. No, we would say Go ahead. You're talking about the particular judgment.
Speaker 10:Well, yeah, so as Catholics, we believe in there's an immediate as soon as you die, there's what we call a particular judgment, right, and that's where we'll face judgment and we'll either, you know, if we've lived in grace, in a state of grace and friendship with God. We, you know, will be immediately know that beatific vision. We'll be able to gaze upon God. Those that die that still need purification, of course it's purgatory.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's what we do, and there's hell, so there's that you, as Jews, would hold that either, when a person dies, there is a judgment, absolutely Okay, and then there's a judgment of the unrepentant sins committed to this life, that takes place in the next life.
Speaker 1:What Rudy was just talking about, the immediate after-death judgment, okay, okay, look, the Bible is not necessarily monolithic about anything, but there are still certain things in the Bible that we take. Okay, the dust returns to dust where it came from. The Spirit goes back to God who gave it. There's an afterlife, yes, okay. There may be other passages which say the opposite, but Judaism holds to the side that there is an afterlife. There is A judgment in the next life, or the unrepentant sins come in this life. Punishment fits the sin. Judaism rejects the idea of an eternal punishment. God is merciful, compassionate, forgiving.
Speaker 3:It's very interesting because we believe in an eternal punishment, but we hope there's nobody there, Right?
Speaker 1:right because that right well, judaism says that there are for some things an eternal punishment, but it is so rare and so exceptional that we're not. You know how many people have you murdered lately, mario?
Speaker 3:come on, it's right. So you know the whole issue of repentance for us it. I think we're the same.
Speaker 1:Very, very parallel what Rudy was implying about a far-flung future second judgment, okay, where the world changes, mario, and what you were more talking about of this week the new heavens and the new earth, right, okay, and that's very similar. Yeah, and we got less than a minute.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but we have a new ending time this night. Yeah, by five seconds, no 15 seconds by 15 seconds Right. And I'm still trying to say, oh God.
Speaker 1:Now how do?
Speaker 3:I do this Because I'm so used to going until 59 with 10 seconds left.
Speaker 1:One of the topics we've talked about could be its own evening.
Speaker 3:Oh, I know, I know, I know. So that's what I try to model this show after. You know what it is. The Five on the Fox News.
Speaker 1:Good show, but I don't get his humor.
Speaker 3:Well, that's one of the guys there. Anyway, you have been listening to the show of faith where normally minister, priest and rabbi talk about events in the news.
Speaker 1:No, and we talk about anything in religion, which is everything Great.
Speaker 3:So, kibbas, please, in your prayers. You know why Because you are always going to be in ours.