A Show of Faith
Millennial, Priest, Minister, and Rabbi walk into a radio station...
A Show of Faith
December 22, 2024 Examining Justifiable Violence, Generational Morality, and Pacifism in Modern Society
Is violence ever truly justifiable, or are we simply reshaping our ethical landscapes to accommodate extreme actions? Join us as we engage in a fascinating exploration of this contentious question, prompted by the case of Mr. Mangione, accused of the premeditated murder of the UnitedHealthcare CEO.
With insights from a diverse panel, we dissect the alarming survey results showing that 41% of young adults consider this act defensible.
This episode challenges conventional morality, questioning the evolving dynamics between oppressor and oppressed in today's society.
The fine line between killing and murder becomes our next focal point as we grapple with the moral distinctions that define these terms. We examine generational perspectives on justifiable violence, adding depth to our understanding of how societal values influence our views on acceptable behavior. Armed with data from an Emerson College poll, we uncover a significant divide between younger and older generations, provoking a critical conversation about morality and justice in modern times.
Our journey through ethical complexities concludes with a dialogue on pacifism versus violence as tools for social change. Reflecting on historical conflicts and contemporary societal corruption, we debate the feasibility of maintaining non-violence and the ethical implications of government roles in healthcare. As festivities approach, we lighten the mood with humor and a spirited exchange on holiday celebrations and show hosting duties.
We wish everyone listening a very Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukah.
with a gun over there Me.
Speaker 2:Well, I got to beware. I think it's time we stopped. What's that sound?
Speaker 1:Everybody look what's going down. This bad line's being drawn. I knew I could get you to laugh If everybody's wrong. Young people speak in their mind, getting so much resistance.
Speaker 3:From behind. Stop what's that sound?
Speaker 1:Everybody look what's going down. Welcome to A Show of Faith, where a professor, priest, millennial and rabbi discuss theology, philosophy and anything else of interest in religion. If you have any response to our topics or any comments regarding what we say, we would love to hear from you. Email us at ashowoffaith at hotmailcom. You can hear our shows again and again by listening pretty much everywhere podcasts are heard. Our professor is David Capes, baptist minister and director of academic programming for the Lanier Theological Library. Good evening, gentlemen. Our priest is Fr Mario Arroyo, retired pastor of St Cyril of Alexandria in the 10,000 block of Westheimer. Hello, rudy Kohn is our millennial. He's a systems engineer. Has his master's degree in theology from the University of St Thomas.
Speaker 4:Howdy, howdy.
Speaker 1:I am Rabbi Stuart Federo, rabbi Emeritus of Congregation Shara Shalom, the Clear Lake area of Houston, texas. Jim Robinson is our producer and engineer. He is the author of the book I Am With you Always, matthew 2820, a daily devotional. Corey and Miranda are our board operators and together, jim and Miranda and Corey help us sound fantastic and gentlemen to our listeners, who may celebrate a happy and blessed Christmas season.
Speaker 5:Thank you very much Toby, let me ask you a question what is the difference between being retired and emeritus?
Speaker 1:Emeritus is just an honorary name given for somebody who's so. I'm not worthy of emeritus. Ask your church. It's designated by the institution.
Speaker 5:No, no, no, no, no. God gave me that Emeritus. Yeah Okay, well then take no, no, it's God gave me that Emeritus. Yeah Okay, well then take it up with God.
Speaker 6:I just did he just told me, he just told you.
Speaker 5:He just said it's okay.
Speaker 1:Right, pastor Emeritus, pastor Emeritus.
Speaker 6:You should do, though, a little bit of etymology of the word emeritus.
Speaker 5:I will do so.
Speaker 6:But emeritus means deserving to be, e means out of Deserving to be out of a job.
Speaker 5:I think that's wonderful, that's not exactly right Sounds good to me.
Speaker 6:I just said that. Anyway, it's good to be back with you guys. Welcome back, we missed you, thank you. Thank you very much. We've got an interesting topic tonight. Well, and this year, this is your your top?
Speaker 1:yes, it is, it's. I am show director and it's elicited from the events in the news of mr mangione being accused of murdering the CEO of UnitedHealthcare.
Speaker 6:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Brian.
Speaker 5:Thompson.
Speaker 1:With whom I have my own insurance.
Speaker 6:Uh-huh, I think I do too as well. Come to think of it, aarp, no, no, he's such a young kid. Mine is through. I'm not deserving to be out of a job quite yet, but anyway, right Through my work we have.
Speaker 5:He's insured, probably better than we've gotten. He's insured with the Ancient of Days Security Corp Indeed.
Speaker 1:That'd be a great name for one.
Speaker 6:Yeah, that happened on December the 4th, so how long has that been? That's been about two weeks ago. And then Mangione was found, or discovered this past week I guess, and a lot of people are claiming him to be kind of a heroic, iconic figure.
Speaker 1:That's what absolutely gets me First degree premeditated, cold-blooded murder is what he's been accused of and they're saying that that's okay, that it was. They're saying hooray for him for doing this. They're making him out to be a hero.
Speaker 6:Who's they? Well, in my opinion, certainly not the people in New York City who are prosecuting him.
Speaker 1:Well, the prosecutors may be, but the recent survey done, I believe, at Columbia University, emerson College Okay, I thought it was also at Columbia, I don't know. Well, there have been a number of polls taken at various universities. Shall we say yes, where an incredibly high to me it's incredibly high percentage of students believe he did the right thing. I mean, they have, they have material from him, things that he's written, uh, things that he did to prepare for that day, and they're and they're saying that's great. 41.
Speaker 6:Forty-one percent of people 18 to 29 say that it was either acceptable or somewhat acceptable.
Speaker 1:And I can't even understand that Forty-one percent, Forty-one percent, almost half of the people surveyed would say that he did something that was justifiable. Now, I will admit you know I've had problems with health insurance companies. Everybody has A lot, Everybody has but and there are, there might have been a few people in my life that you know I'd wish for an unhappy future, whatever. But first degree, premeditated, cold-blooded murder. And to say that that's okay, I mean I, I just he, he's a businessman it nothing, nothing I could say would justify turning down people who deserve to be helped with insurance. To be helped with insurance, I'll admit that, but murder it just. You know what happened to our ethics and morals in our country.
Speaker 5:But here's the issue, and I think it's an issue that requires a lot of depth. I know, to some degree it doesn't. Nuances, nuances, yes, here's the issue. Where does defense Of the violent Well, no, no, I'm trying to figure out how to say it. But if you, if the whole issue of oppressor versus oppressed, okay is exactly what comes in here?
Speaker 5:comes in here, the question is the degree of oppression. Because, um, you know, like, for example, I told you some time ago I mean just a few minutes ago that several years ago we had people in the pro-life cause choosing to shoot doctors who were performing abortions, and of course you know they were saying, well, they're killing babies, and I'm just killing a killer before he kills, and then you get all the way from there to justifiable violence. When is it Now? Please understand, I am not arguing.
Speaker 1:See, that's the real issue.
Speaker 5:I'm not arguing at all that this guy had justifiable or justifiable. Uh, let me back up here my favorite, one of my favorite theologians, um and I'm blanking out his name the definition of violence violence when justified. That's the issue. Violence, when justified, is a duty, not, it's not an option.
Speaker 1:But a sad duty, sad, yes.
Speaker 5:So the question is, you know, if you take it, if you take that justification, you can take it all the way from war. Okay, because the killing in war you don't call it murder.
Speaker 1:Right, ah, but see, there's a difference between killing and murder. That's correct.
Speaker 5:That's why I said it, because if killing in war, then you get to the point of what do you define war?
Speaker 6:as or violence. You're going back to violence, yeah.
Speaker 5:When is violence justifiable? When is violence justifiable? I think he went way over the line, way over the line, by the mile, yes.
Speaker 4:I think this is part of the issue that we're dealing with.
Speaker 4:It comes from the ideological belief that health care is a basic human right. Okay, and when you argue it from that perspective, if health care is supposed to be something that the government provides or that the state helps provide, and that there shouldn't be any adherence to that and I'm playing devil's advocate I'm not advocating for violence at all, of course, but what I'm trying to say is, when you have an individual or when you have groups of individuals right where they believe that this, that healthcare, should be a basic human right, then any tampering, withholding of this basic human right is taking to to assassination, if you will. I mean, how many people are did? I personally know people that have been denied cancer care right and operations. So I mean this is like dr capes and rabbi were saying right, I mean, we all, we all know people right that have dealt with, dealing with their insurance companies and something was denied, and you have to call back and you have to fight and you deny it and it takes time. So to what point then?
Speaker 5:does it become? Well, let me tell you an idea that I've been tossing around. Would justifiable violence the blind be when another person is actively trying to kill you?
Speaker 1:Yes, that's called self-defense.
Speaker 5:There's a difference, okay. This president of this company was not actively trying to kill anyone.
Speaker 6:He was going to a meeting.
Speaker 5:Yeah, he was denying something he was going to a meeting. Yeah, he was denying something, he was walking on the street. There's a difference between an active killer that you're trying to stop an active killer and, I would say, a passive that you could say you could accuse a person through neglect of killing, but that's different, I think, than a passive. You see what I'm just saying.
Speaker 1:I see what you're saying.
Speaker 5:I think an active killer, an active attempted murder is worthy of being stopped by violence.
Speaker 1:Yes, you were the one who first brought up the idea of killing as opposed to murder. How would you distinguish between killing and murdering? What's the difference between to kill?
Speaker 5:and to murder. To murder is the killing of an innocent Right.
Speaker 6:It's taking the life of an innocent. And usually with some premeditation, with some thought ahead of time.
Speaker 5:Yes, now you've got to be careful, because this person could then say well, wait a minute, this guy was guilty of withholding care, but now we go to what you just were talking about with the active as opposed to passive. That's correct. I think that the answer lies in that you begin to enter not fully. You begin to enter not fully, but you begin to enter justifiable violence when a person is actively trying to harm another person.
Speaker 1:But your statement about neglect, I think, is very apropos.
Speaker 6:Yeah, let's get some details here. In view this Emerson College poll, 41% of young people ages 18 to 29 say it's either completely acceptable or somewhat acceptable for Luigi Mangione to have assassinated, killed, murdered Brian Thompson Allegedly Allegedly yeah, allegedly Allegedly, yeah. Now, 22% of those who say it's acceptable through all age ranges, were Democrats, 12% were Republicans You're kidding and 16% were independents. So that's the split between the party. Now, of those 18 to 29-year-olds, again, you have 41% that say it's acceptable, or completely acceptable or somewhat acceptable, and 19% said that they were neutral on it. They just didn't have really an opinion.
Speaker 1:Now, this is what I found interesting. Well, that's because they may not know the facts, they may not know anything about it.
Speaker 6:That's possible. Here's what I thought was interesting In the age group of 60 to 69, 8% said it was completely acceptable. Eight Eight Half of the 18 to 29-year-olds and only 2% said it's somewhat acceptable. So 10% compared to 41% of that it's called wisdom. And those who were between 60 and 69, 80% said it was unacceptable, 73% said it was completely unacceptable. 7% said it's somewhat unacceptable. So 80% of those 60 to 69. Now I know you guys are close to that age group.
Speaker 1:We're past it. I got news for you.
Speaker 6:I'm well past it I just thought that was very interesting that there's a difference between Republicans and Democrats on that, that there's also as many as 10% of those who are in roughly our age group who say it's acceptable.
Speaker 5:I'm surprised at the amount of conservatives, it is now acceptable that we have to go to our age group.
Speaker 1:Yes, it is. It's very acceptable Very acceptable.
Speaker 5:It's not somewhat.
Speaker 6:No, it is imperative. This is KN acceptable. It's not somewhat no, no, no, it is imperative.
Speaker 5:This is KMTH 1070, and we'll be right back.
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Speaker 1:And together we will see how lovely heaven will be. Welcome back to A Show of Faith on AM 1070. Answer. We're talking about Luigi Mangione, the accused murderer of the CEO of UnitedHealthcare, brian Thompson, and before we went to the break we were talking about the difference between thou shalt murder and thou shalt not kill. And the biblical text explicitly reads thou shalt not murder. It doesn't say thou shalt not kill. And the biblical text explicitly reads thou shalt not murder. It doesn't say thou shalt not kill.
Speaker 5:No, because you really cannot be. It is my contention that you cannot how do I say realistically be a pacifist. Mainly because the moment you are a pacifist, an absolute pacifist, you cannot even call the police.
Speaker 1:Well, we don't call an exterminator of the ants that get in our house murderers. We call them. You know, they're killing the ants. They're not murdering the ants. That's correct, that's correct.
Speaker 5:Yeah, poor innocents.
Speaker 6:Well, there are people that want to take that all the way to animals and to other, not just to human beings. But I think from the commandment's point of view, thou shalt not. Murder is meant from human to human Right.
Speaker 1:But if it said thou shalt not kill, you couldn't swat at a mosquito trying to bite you.
Speaker 6:Yeah, yeah, it's killing, maybe, maybe, yeah, I don't know it's killer, maybe, maybe, yeah, but we wouldn't call taking the life of a mosquito murder either.
Speaker 1:No, that's true. So nobody believes in the Ten Commandments anymore.
Speaker 6:So, Rudy, what about your age group? What do you think your age group would be saying about this right?
Speaker 1:now yes, you young whippersnapper you, you, millennial you.
Speaker 4:Yes, you young whippersnapper, you millennial, you Maybe I had much of a different upbringing because I kind of feel like I was just more. Conversation came a little bit easier, I guess when I talked to my grandfather sort of just older figures I would say so look, there's no justification for this, even with his death, right? Okay, so he was murdered, assassinated, really, because that's what it was. Has United Healthcare's profits gone down? Has any policy changed?
Speaker 4:I mean, this is such a huge organization, right? So I'm not sure what the? I mean we could sit here and speculate about sort of what the proposed outcome out of all this, right, but the reality is that it's in no way, shape or form. Is this correct? And the fact that so many young people see this as a morally acceptable behavior to create some sort of solution and change is actually I mean, it's indicative of what we've been talking about for some time now, right? I mean the corruption of our entire educational system. I mean we've had several conversations about this and here we see it manifested. I mean, one thing is to teach critical theory and to kind of talk about all those Marxist ideologies, but here we're seeing it in cold-blooded action.
Speaker 6:Well, we also see it, I think, in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in terms of what's happened on college campuses in relationship to the growing anti-Semitism and the idea is that violence can be a tool for social change and rationalized away Right right. So we need social justice. We can't achieve it through any kind of lawful means, so we have to go through unlawful means to do so. Right this yeah.
Speaker 5:The issue is really the word justification.
Speaker 1:I would say rationalization, but go ahead.
Speaker 5:No, no, no Justification, meaning where's the line, Where's the line between that which is justified and that which is not justified? Okay, Because that's you know, you could. There is a way in which you could I don't think authentically, but there is a way in which you could see all power relations as oppressor-oppressed. That's a very cynical way.
Speaker 1:But even if you were right in saying it's oppressor-oppressed, how does that no?
Speaker 5:you don't, you don't legitimize it, you don't? Well, the difference between Still murder. You don't legitimize. Legitimize means to make legal, but justify it. Justify it, you don't justify that. That's why I think the discussion really needs to be. You know, when using my definition or the definition from my theologian, I can't remember, richard.
Speaker 6:John Newhouse, richard John.
Speaker 5:Newhouse Violence.
Speaker 6:I was going to let you squirm and see if you could figure it out.
Speaker 5:Violence. When justified, there is the, there's the key. When justified is a is not an option, but I'm sad sad duty so then when is it justified?
Speaker 1:that's the issue.
Speaker 5:that's the only issue that is here, Because we cannot say violence is never justified and you cannot say violence can be justified whenever you find any kind of oppression whatsoever. And so you've got to do.
Speaker 6:But I think this is something You've got to do, the hard work. Yes, you know, and this guy, I mean, he didn't have a chance to debate this. He didn't have a chance to debate. No, he was shot in the back, was he?
Speaker 5:yes, I had no idea the back count so that we'll continue talking about this when we come back from the break.
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Speaker 11:AM 1070, the answer. There's a kind of hush.
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Speaker 2:The Tony's Hermits.
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Speaker 1:Welcome back to A Show of Faith on AM 107,. The Answer and this comes from listener Jeff he writes the law already covers the case. The real issue is critical theory, he writes. This is clearly an unlawful killing, also known as a murder. We don't need to hash a clear distinction already covered by our law. The long story short, the issue is that, per critical theory, the oppressed class acts as though they override the law. Jeff, thanks for the email.
Speaker 5:Well, and that's because critical theory is based on Marxist principles. Marxist revolution. You know what is it? Was it Stalin that said in order to have a revolution, you've got to break a few eggs? Or didn't get to make an omelet.
Speaker 1:To make an omelet, you make a break of eggs.
Speaker 5:The problem. You know the best answer I've heard to that.
Speaker 1:What's that? Show me the omelet. Yeah, where is the omelet? The omelet.
Speaker 5:Yeah, yeah, ain't no omelet.
Speaker 6:Well, but the idea of resistance, resisting that which is unlawful, power to the people, yeah, I mean, you know we had our own revolution and what's interesting is that a lot of college students these days, particularly at elite schools like Cornell and Princeton, and you see, I'm wearing my Princeton colors today. That's Princeton, yes.
Speaker 1:I can see that Princeton.
Speaker 6:Tigers Right. They see themselves as kind of revolutionaries, and what's a little scary is that if you've got 40, 45 percent of these folks thinking this is justifiable, these are the kind of folks that are going to become the governors in the future. There you go, and the senators and the judges and the president I mean they go to schools like that.
Speaker 5:The problem is that you then start. If you start lowering the standard, you're going to break the social contract of society.
Speaker 3:What do you?
Speaker 5:mean because we live. I I think there's a social contract theory and that is that we all forego doing our own self-defense or our defense ourselves and give it to the government, because otherwise, if you start taking a law into your own hands, everybody's going to be killing everybody else because everybody's going to feel oppressed by somebody well, see, that's effectively what we do.
Speaker 6:Is we give it to the government whether it's exactly city, county, state, or that's exactly right, but well, I mean a part of one of the charges that is being considered. I don't know what the status of this now is terrorism, Because imagine if you're the head of Aetna or you're the head of some other Cigna, Blue Cross, Blue Shield, Blue Cross, Blue Shield If you're the head of that, you've got to think because there have been threats made. Now that this has happened, People are sort of at least on social media, making threats that all these CEOs need to watch their backs or something to that effect. There is a terror aspect to it, particularly when you have 40% of the 18 to 29-year-olds saying that's a pretty good idea. Yeah, I'm glad it happened. If you're watching SNL Saturday Night Live recently I think it was this past week they mentioned on the show one of the skits, Luigi Mangione, and the audience broke out in cheers and applause, Just hearing the name, Just hearing the name.
Speaker 6:And it even took the staff, I mean the people who were, you know the comedians putting on the show by surprise that they were responding that way. So if you're in health care or if you're in not health care, sorry, health insurance if you're in that field, you've got to wonder. Well, it's health insurance that determines health care, so they are Well, nobody's going after doctors and nobody's going after nurses at this point Not lately, or they're talking about it.
Speaker 6:They're talking about it now, now, about CEOs of these other companies. Right, they're going to have to get their own bodyguards. Yeah, but in the case of Israel, go back to Israel. The argument from the Palestinian is that rape is justified. The argument is murder children is justified. This kind of terror thing is justified because Israel is the oppressor and we have been the oppressed.
Speaker 1:Therefore, anything we do is okay.
Speaker 6:And a lot of people have taken that and come to the on the side of the Palestinians.
Speaker 1:Same conclusion as on the side of Mangione.
Speaker 6:Yeah, exactly, so that you can justify rape, you can justify killing, you can justify killing children.
Speaker 1:And the truth of the matter is we have a brain, we have a mind and we can rationalize anything. You can always rationalize. The word rationalize is using your head, your brain to justify an act. And we can justify, we can rationalize, we can use or misuse that intelligence in all sorts of ways.
Speaker 5:That's because we're not engaging. We're engaging in lazy thinking. It's also the fact that it's easy thinking, but not only that. I think that here's an interesting quote that I found that reminded me of this it just says Lacking thick, thick accounts of who we are, what we believe in, what our morals are and for what we hope. We are unmoored and adrift, all the while celebrating the very absence of our structure as evidence of our structure, as evidence of our freedom and autonomy.
Speaker 1:Okay, you want to translate that?
Speaker 6:Well, I'm going to think about that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or repeat it at least. Lacking thick accounts. You mean depth, or what does that mean Substantial?
Speaker 6:These are complex problems. I mean, we've got sort of simple answers Oppressor, oppressed Right.
Speaker 5:Substantial, lacking substantial accounts of who we are, what we believe in, what is our rights and wrongs. We are unmoored and adrift. Moored and adrift all the while we're celebrating the very absence of structure as evidence of our freedom and autonomy, because we don't have a common we've let go of our common morals and ethics? Yes, We've let go of the foundations of civilization and right now it's war of all against all, and you can justify it.
Speaker 1:As I say, you can justify anything Earlier tonight.
Speaker 5:We need to get Rudy in here, rudy, go ahead.
Speaker 4:Well, I want Rabbi to finish, but I think you're right, I was going to go to a new topic Go ahead.
Speaker 4:Well, I just again. I think it kind of ties in. What we were talking about last week, too is we've lost the notion of what's beautiful and transcendent. I mean, it's reflected across everything in our culture today, right, I mean, look at our architecture, Look at our artwork. So to me, it's just going to continue degenerating into how we even see human beings as a whole. Right, I mean, when you stop thinking or stop believing that another person has an equal dignity and is valued beyond anything else and you see them as a mere you sent out this thing, right, Palomar but as a tyrant, right, as this figure. That's oppressing, yes, and that's the only sort of mechanism that you analyze things.
Speaker 1:Right, forgetting to see on the face of the other the image of God.
Speaker 4:Yes.
Speaker 1:It's a natural occurrence. It's a what?
Speaker 4:It's a natural occurrence when we stop seeing that everything becomes permissible, right, Especially when it comes to each other.
Speaker 1:All right, we only have a couple more minutes before the next break. Earlier tonight I forgot who one of us said was bringing up the idea that many people think the government is responsible for our health care.
Speaker 6:That was Rudy.
Speaker 1:Is the government responsible for our health care? Do you think the government is responsible for our health care? You think the government is responsible for our health care? I think in some ways the government is necessary to maintain quality. Okay, that, for example, um insulin little bottles, you know or the uh shots, okay, have a high quality of the medicine within it and not fentanyl, and not God forbid fentanyl. Or water, salt water, saline solution Okay, but I have mixed feelings about how the government should be responsible for all health care.
Speaker 4:Rabbi, my issue and maybe this is I don't want to mean controversial, but I don't have any problem with governments helping provide health care the issue comes with the equal participation of the citizens with their health care. Right, when the doctor, when you go see a doctor and this is a state-sponsored doctor, let's say, and he tells you stop smoking, okay, because it's going to cause you lung cancer, and then you don't stop smoking, so then what? Then you put and I'm looking at it from a very utilitarian perspective right where you think of ititarian perspective, right where it's we think of it as resources, right, because as a state, you only have a certain amount of resources. You only have a certain amount of MRI machines, you only have a certain amount of chemotherapy. These things cost money, right, I mean, it costs time.
Speaker 4:So when there's not an equal participation of the state, of the individual, sorry, to participate within their own health, then there has to be some sort of repercussion for the individual as well, where, okay, then the state's not responsible then for for your lack of of your own personal health care, right, I mean it's. It has to find a limit too, right, I? I mean it requires, just like this republic, right, for this thing to work, it requires for all of us to believe that we were all ingrained with equal dignity. These have been since our founding fathers. And when we stop thinking that and when we start believing that, when we stop, then the things that happen are happening right. It just seems like it's a lapse of everything that seems right and just and more you make a good point.
Speaker 6:It's not just up to the government. The government can participate in it, but it can't sort of take the final and necessary steps to do that. And and of course, you know, in those places around the world where it is a government function it. It is also going back to what rudy said. It is in a sense, um, you know, not everybody has access. I have a friend that would be alive today if he were living. He was a US citizen living in Britain but he had leukemia and there were procedures in America that he could have gotten and probably could have had another few years. But because he was living in Britain at the time and he was over 70, he had no access to that and he was very vibrant, very vital in life. You know, he had one big problem and it was a big problem, but he could have lived another number of years and, father Mario, we're going to live. To tell A commercial, it's a commercial.
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Speaker 3:Strange Brew, strange Bru, killin' what's inside of you. She's a windshot trampled in electric blue In her own bad mind. She's in love with you, with you, I want you, girl, I do what you're gonna do.
Speaker 1:Strange brook can't watch inside of you welcome back to the show of faith on the intensively answered that was not Herman's Hermits either, definitely not no cream of the crop.
Speaker 6:Cream of the crop, there we go, yeah. So Father Mario had sent an article earlier. Definitely not no Cream of the crop. Cream of the crop, there we go, yeah. So Father Mario had sent an article earlier about kind of the Catholic perspective on tyrannicide, which is the killing of a tyrant.
Speaker 5:The killing of a tyrant. Yeah, it's an interesting perspective because you know, we've been talking about all of this and I think the issue is justification. It all comes down to it Because neither extreme of being too easy on killing and on being total pacifism is acceptable. So you have to decide when. And one of the interesting things, there's a book which I highly, highly, highly recommend.
Speaker 6:Do you highly recommend it?
Speaker 5:I highly recommend it. But you like the book. I love the book. It's called Church of Spies. Church of Spies. I'll look up who it's by, see if you can find it.
Speaker 5:I'll see if I can find it, but in church of spies um pope pius the 12th is, uh, revealed, because this is a a history book. This is, it reads like a novel, but it's a history book. And in church, pope pius the 12th is revealed as being an intermediary, working with the English Secret Service and American Secret Service and members of Hitler's command structure that were wanting to stop Hitler and they were planning, of course, the killing of Hitler. Of course the killing of Hitler. And the Pope is pictured as struggling with the morality of cooperating and allowing the Vatican to cooperate with what is called tyrannicide, and that is or regicide, but tyrannicide is better, the killing of a tyrant. And it's interesting because even St Thomas Aquinas, one of the great philosophers of the Catholic tradition, talks about the justification of the killing of a tyrant. But the question I always go back is well, what do you call a tyrant?
Speaker 1:And who gets to decide who's the tyrant?
Speaker 5:That's why the Catholic Church does not have a teaching on this.
Speaker 1:It's a point of dubious, there's a big problem with the tyrannicide, tyrannicide, and that is, it's the assumption which sometimes would be accurate. Okay, that if you get rid of the tyrant the problem goes away. Yes, but if the government that is corrupt, that is dictatorship, whatever is well-placed or, you know, well-developed, then you can get rid of a Hitler and not a whole lot's going to change.
Speaker 5:Well, that's true, but does that mean you do nothing right? You know that's where this is, where you know it goes between justification and pacifism you know, and that's why this is not an easy question it seems.
Speaker 6:Seems, I mean, it's a stretch to call the ceo of a company even with the kind of money that these guys make, which is crazy, crazy money, calling them a tyrant.
Speaker 5:But you know, David, I think that the answer has to be of actively trying to kill people or trying to kill you.
Speaker 6:If you're not doing that, which this guy was not trying to do, that he may be so, putin would be actively trying to kill Ukrainians, ukrainians right and even apparently now prisoners of war are being killed by him.
Speaker 5:Yes, that's the issue Ukrainian prisoners of war. Can you legitimately go after Putin? I would say if he is commander-in-chief of the Russian army, he's part of the army, then Then he needs to and if he's killing prisoners of war.
Speaker 6:Yeah yeah, that's where you're. I mean just women and children who are being bombed in these cities. I mean, you know he's actively trying to attack, he's not just going after military installations and such. So I mean the question is going back to that what is a tyrant and how do you define a tyrant? And can you, if taking the tyrant out, can you guarantee that there is going to be an improvement?
Speaker 5:Of circumstances.
Speaker 1:Circumstances, the element of calling somebody a tyrant guarantee that there is going to be an improvement of your circumstances. The element of calling somebody a tyrant, especially when they're not what most people would say is a tyrant, falls under what Rudy was talking about earlier, and that is they're no longer human. You dehumanize them Right, right exactly, which makes them easier to kill. Yeah, rudy, get in here.
Speaker 4:You know it's a slippery slope, right. We don't have to search too far in today's day and age. I think of you know, my home country, like Nicaragua, right, and Ortega Daniel Ortega, he's a complete dictator, right, and there could be an argument to say that he's also a tyrant, an unjustified tyrant, right? I mean, he's killed many people, he's exiled many people. His actions have had detrimental economic effects that have put many people into poverty. But does that mean we should take him out? And if we should take him out, then why aren't other just nations taking him out? I mean, do you think that the United States could take him out quickly? I'm sure it could.
Speaker 1:Yes, but remember the code. Whether it's written or unwritten, you don't take out the leader of another country, because it opens them up to take you out.
Speaker 4:Well, I was just going to say you kind of prefer this is just kind of an old saying but sometimes you would rather prefer the devil you know than the devil you don't know, right?
Speaker 5:Well, and also one of the principles of that the Catholic Church goes by is do you have a reasonable assurance of a good outcome and not a further deterioration of the social environment? Because if you know by killing somebody that you justifiably killing you're going to make things worse, then you don't do it because it's going to be worse. That's why pope pius xii had to do stuff underneath, under, under the table, because every time he would come out to say something, hitler would increase the number of people that were being killed, and so it's one of those. It's not a perfect, it's not a black and white thing, it's very much a gray area.
Speaker 1:What happens if, when Mr Mangione comes before the court and the what did you say? 41% of the people 18 to 29-year-olds wind up on his jury.
Speaker 5:Well, I'm sure that the prosecutors are going to make sure that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but they can't control it 100%. No, no, they've got so many people they can kick off the jury. That's true. You can wind up having that 41% on the jury.
Speaker 5:Yep.
Speaker 1:All it takes is one. When it comes to murder, it has to be unanimous. I believe New York works that way.
Speaker 6:I would think so.
Speaker 1:I would think so, which means, if they get one person who's part of that 41% who thinks the act was justified.
Speaker 6:Well, I don't know that you can. That to me is scary. Well, I don't know that you can. That to me is scary. Well, I don't know that that can be a reason they may think it's justified, but they can't. They have to rule on the law. They can't rule upon whether the law is just or unjust.
Speaker 1:Once you're on a jury, you can rule any way you want to.
Speaker 5:Yeah, you can do what's called jury nullification. It's a tough one.
Speaker 1:Well, I would be. I think it would be a very sad day for our courts to have one of those 41 percent on the jury.
Speaker 6:Yeah Well, and that's part of the going back to the whole social makeup of it. You know, not only do these people, who are these elites, go into these eastern universities, these Ivy League schools, they're going to become senators and judges and such one day, but they're also going to serve on juries. So what happens in those cases? So it clearly is a breakdown of the moral fabric the moral crisis.
Speaker 1:When you start calling the bad good, you'll eventually call the good bad proverbs. I can't remember where that is.
Speaker 6:I think that's a prophet I think right, I should know that I'm a baptist, so yes, you should, by god, you know yes periodically, when I preach, I go.
Speaker 5:You know in scripture it says I, I, I preach, I go. You know in Scripture it says and I have to excuse because I'm not Baptist, I don't know the Bible.
Speaker 6:You can invoke my name.
Speaker 3:I do.
Speaker 6:If Dr Caps was here, he would do it I often invoke you and our Jewish friend here. What's his name? That's his name. Rabbits too. Yeah, that his name? Rabbits 2? Yeah, that's it Rabbits 2.
Speaker 1:Rabbits 2? I think I'm going to have to take lessons from Rudy on how to ask the right questions for AI. Yes, because that analysis that it spit out, rudy, was phenomenal. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I saw it's interesting because there's like even job postings for people that know how to interface correctly with AI. Some of them make it like $200,000 a year, so it's kind of crazy how much. We should do a whole show on that, maybe at another time, but the amount of output that I get from it. I think people misuse it and I think they miscategorize it.
Speaker 1:Rudy, we've got about a minute left. It's five after right.
Speaker 9:Five seconds after.
Speaker 6:Happy Christmas Father. Thank you, merry, and blessed Christmas to you.
Speaker 5:And Happy Hanukkah.
Speaker 1:All our listeners who happen to celebrate that sort of thing.
Speaker 6:Yeah, yeah, when was Hanukkah? All our listeners who happen to celebrate that sort of thing, yeah, yeah, when is Hanukkah? I forgot it starts Wednesday night, thursday, oh, it's Wednesday this week.
Speaker 1:This week yeah, wow, okay, christmas Day night Wow, okay, all right, it's our first candle, rudy.
Speaker 6:Happy Christmas down there to you and Guatemala.
Speaker 4:Thank you. Thank you To you guys as well.
Speaker 1:happy hanukkah thank you, thank you thank you, yeah, thanks so much yeah okay, so next week be, back right here.
Speaker 6:It's right who's show?
Speaker 5:director, I think father mario is.
Speaker 6:I don't. I don't think so.
Speaker 5:I think corey is let's put in my corey could be you, could be me. Yeah, could be me. All right, yeah, we'll debate that. We'll debate that. Yes, yeah, we'll get off the show.
Speaker 6:You do it. No, you do it. Anyway, it's your turn. No, it's your turn. No, but it's great to see you guys. It's been a good Advent season. Hopefully for one day, it's Christmas Day followed all the way to January the 6th.