A Show of Faith
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A Show of Faith
February 23, 2025 Borders of Faith: Exploring the Morality of Immigration
Join us in this captivating discussion as we explore one of the most contentious and pressing issues of our time—immigration. In this episode, our diverse panel delves into the moral and ethical complexities surrounding immigration policies in the United States. We dissect the contrasting attitudes between current political leadership, discuss the concept of "the scandal of particularity," and how this influences our understanding of human rights and compassion.
Through personal stories, the conversation brings to light the challenges faced by those navigating the immigration system, reminding us of the human experiences often lost in political discourse. Our discussion is not solely about the rules and regulations but rather the ethical responsibilities that accompany them. How do we balance the needs of our communities with a compassionate understanding toward those seeking a better life? How does moral theology frame our approach to such pressing issues?
We invite you to listen, reflect, and engage with the profound questions raised in this episode. Let us explore immigration not just as a legal issue but as a conversation about humanity, dignity, and shared moral responsibility. Tune in, and don’t forget to subscribe, share your thoughts, and leave a review!
Thank you. There's battle lines being drawn. Nobody's right if everybody's wrong. Young people speak in their minds, are getting so much resistance From behind Every time we stop. Hey, what's that sound? Everybody look what's going down.
Speaker 2:Welcome to A Show of Faith where a professor, priest, millennial and rabbi discuss theology, philosophy, morality and ethics and anything else of interest in religion. If you have any response to our topics or any comments regarding what we say, we would love to hear from you. But we have a brand new email address. It's ashowoffaith1070 at gmailcom. Write that down and use it. Ashowoffaith1070 at gmailcom. Ashowoffaith1070 at gmailcom. You can hear our shows again and again by listening. Pretty much anywhere podcasts are heard. Our priest is Fr Mario Arroyo, retired pastor of St Cyril of Alexandria in the 10,000 block of Westheimer. Hello, that was deep. Our professor David Capes is our Baptist minister, the director of academic programming for the Lanier Theological Library. You did well, rabbi. I try my best. Rudy Kong is our millennial systems engineer and has his master's degree in theology from the University of St Thomas. I am Rabbi Stuart Federo.
Speaker 1:Howdy howdy.
Speaker 2:Hey, there you are. I am Stuart Federo, retired Rabbi Emeritus of Congregation Sha'ar HaShalom, the Clear Lake area of Houston, Texas. Nikki and Miranda are our board operators and together, Nikki and Miranda help us sound fantastic.
Speaker 4:Okay, yes, hey, rudy, where are you now? Okay?
Speaker 5:Hey, rudy, where are you now? I am still in Brazil, but we fly back tomorrow, so I'll be taking the next week's call from Guatemala oh home again.
Speaker 7:Jeez, yes, sir. Well, it is my turn. Uh, I am the show director. This is father mario, and, um, what we're dealing with today, I would like to deal with is the whole topic of immigration. Um, because of course it is so much in the news right now and I would like to get into, you know, the morality of sanctuary cities and the morality of deportations, the morality of Notice what I keep saying, I keep on talking about the morality. That's what it is, yeah, that's what it is. So here's the context that I would like to establish what was happening right now, that's what it is by the irresponsible understanding of the border the US-Mexico border especially, but also the Canadian by Joe Biden, because Biden let it go to the point that nobody I mean everybody was coming in. Millions of people I think I heard that, five or six million people came in.
Speaker 2:Wouldn't you say that their radical morality of the Democratic Party is there shouldn't be borders anywhere. Everybody should be free to go anywhere they want, whenever they want no matter who they are, what they stand for what they act. That is correct.
Speaker 7:No matter who they are, what they stand for, what they act. That is correct, yes, but you know the reason? I think that they thought that they were doing that is because they thought the Democrats thought that all the Hispanics that were being let in were going to be voting.
Speaker 2:Democrats, oh, not just the Democrats, not just the Hispanic community, but immigrants in general.
Speaker 7:Immigrants in general. And guess what? This year they didn't. Half of the Hispanics voted for Trump. So here's where I'd like to start, because the ultimate thing right tonight is look folks, I'm a Catholic priest. Thing right tonight is look folks, I'm a Catholic priest and I've tried to do my best to understand the Catholic moral understanding of the issues of immigration. Now, obviously, there's going to be a contrast between the Catholic understanding of immigration and the American, and any country has its own understanding of immigration. But we're in the United States, so we're going to talk about the United States' understanding of immigration. Obviously, we're going to be talking about Trump's attitude and Biden's attitude and comparing them. My goal tonight is not to say one is right and one is wrong, but to just compare them.
Speaker 2:And to look at it through our moral, ethical, religious viewpoints.
Speaker 7:That is correct, David and Rudy. Are you guys clear about what we're doing?
Speaker 4:No, I think it's a great topic. It's an important topic. I don't think we're going to find the clarity that we like to find in religion, that we're going to find with what's happening. Well, the national question of clarity is going to be equivalent to any particular religious form of it.
Speaker 7:Yeah, I don't think we're going to find clarity, because even the Catholic community and even Catholic bishops are all drawing the line at different places. And it's very interesting because I have, in the last few years, been a great fan of a concept that um, that I I find it constantly um important to to understand that that it's I'm tired. You can tell, yeah, um, but I think the the concept that I think we're going to find is what's called the scandal of particularity.
Speaker 2:The scandal of particularity.
Speaker 7:Yes, Now let me explain.
Speaker 2:What in particular?
Speaker 7:No, let me explain the scandal of particularity and it's how it's going to be applied to the topic that we have at hand. Okay, the word scandal, first of all, is not to be understood as taking an offense, you know, like, oh my God, I'm scandalized. You know the word scandal and, david, you can probably give me a better understanding of this, but it means somewhat of a stumbling block that you're, you're doing something, something that is being proposed is giving you pause, and it's not easy. You're not swallowing it easily. Am I correct in this?
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah. Scandal on is like a stumbling block right. Okay, something that causes somebody else to stumble.
Speaker 7:Okay, so it's not going down easy. Okay, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4:It's like it's not going down easy.
Speaker 7:Okay, yeah. So the scandal, understand that concept. Okay, that scandal is not an offense, but it's a stumbling block. The scandal of particularity is when you have a general principle of any kind, okay, and you have to make a decision as to where to bring it into actuality, whether point A, b, c, d, e, f, g, all the different points that there are. No matter what you decide, someone's going to be scandalized, right? No matter what you decide, okay, that's called the scandal of particularity, okay, okay. So I know that this is going to be part of the answer here. There is no way to get around it. That is going to be. The issue of immigration is going to hit that scandal of particularity.
Speaker 2:And there may not be any kind of resolution.
Speaker 7:No, there may not be. There may not be. So, Rudy, you want to jump in and say anything about what I've been saying?
Speaker 5:No, no, I think you should continue because I have a few thoughts, but go ahead and finish, we'll get to them.
Speaker 7:Okay. Okay, the first topic that I would like to Now remember folks, my specialty as opposed to Monsignor David and His Highness Stuart and his lowliness because he's just a kid, yeah, he is so my specialty is what's called philosophical theology. Now, what is philosophical theology? I begin to deal with problems first and foremost from the philosophical perspective. If you were dealing with, you know altitude I begin dealing with, begin to dealing with a problem from 50,000 feet and then come down and get closer. That, what?
Speaker 7:What I mean by that is saying that the very first thing, that and I sent both all three of you an article it's just a short thing on the church, catholic churches approach to immigration. But what I find the most interesting's approach to immigration. But what I find the most interesting to begin to talk about is the presumption and the difference in presumptions between governments and the church, because the governments are saying our nation, our stuff, and we take care of our people first, and then the rest of the people can come afterwards. But they're not a priority. The priority is with the people of our nation. Okay, the Catholic understanding and you guys read it in there that the earth as a whole belongs to all humankind, have a certain amount of a right to migrate if it becomes intolerable to live where they are living, and that the countries who are receiving them need to do a balancing act, because to deny migration would be to deny a human right.
Speaker 2:And you're saying that, that right.
Speaker 7:That right is.
Speaker 2:Is that all land belongs to them.
Speaker 7:No, all land. See this is where it gets a little thorny that the Resources of the earth as a whole. Remember, when you're dealing with a catholic church, you're dealing with an institution that thinks globally. No, of course. Ok, so the question is God created the earth. Whom are the resources of the earth for? And the resources of the earth are for humankind, okay, and so the church begins by understanding that we can limit, but you cannot ultimately deny human beings a the right to have food, the right to have lodging, because that's sustenance, that's protection that is correct.
Speaker 2:But that, but that becomes the moral endeavor for them to be able to go where they need to go in order to be able to eat and survive. Yes, not just the fact that all resources belong to them, but they have the right, they don't belong to them.
Speaker 7:They belong to all of us. But that it would include them.
Speaker 2:Yes, that would include them. So the rationalization for people anybody being able to emigrate where they want to, is that all resources belong to them or because of their personal need to survive and to eat and to be protected, etc. Okay, Seems to me like it would be more the latter than the former, Rudy. It seems to me like it would be more the latter than the former.
Speaker 5:Rudy, I think it has. I think it's better to, in my opinion, look at it more of a sort of stewardship right for and I would extend it more to the entire universe really, but in our current time it's the Earth, but it's also proper stewardship of the Earth and its resources for the reduction of human suffering as a whole.
Speaker 7:I think that's sort of the way I see it. Yeah, you put it very, very well. David, do you want to come in and chime in on?
Speaker 4:that, yeah, I mean, I think part of the scandal of particularity is that we're not going to be able to agree on all these things indeed, but the whole human story, I mean Humanity 101, is one of migration and movement of people.
Speaker 7:That's correct.
Speaker 4:I mean, throughout history and even prehistory, people have been moving around. There haven't been nations with borders. The whole phenomenon of nations is really a modern phenomenon. It's not more than 400 or 500 years old, depending upon who you're looking to, than four or five hundred years old, depending upon who you're looking to. But but the but. Yeah, there were countries. Yeah, there were people groups.
Speaker 4:Yeah, there were ethnic groups, but borders were were a little bit fluid and such and so the human story is one of of immigration and migration movement, and very often that movement has to do with sustaining life, with fleeing something, and very often that movement has to do with sustaining life, with fleeing something. Fleeing bad weather, you know, and the big ice ages. People move south right in order to try to find a better life and be able to survive, and the same thing with food and such. So I think these are big stories. These aren't small stories.
Speaker 7:These aren't just what's happening in my day. That's why I brought up the scandal of particularity, because it's going to get into this.
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Speaker 7:We're now going to a break and we'll be right back.
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Speaker 1:The Answer At first I was afraid, I was petrified, kept thinking I could never live without you by my side. But then I spent so many nights Thinking how you did me wrong and I grew strong and I learned how to get along. And so you're back from outer space.
Speaker 2:I just walked in to find you here With that sad look upon your face. Welcome back to A Show of Faith on M107. The Answer.
Speaker 7:So you know, as we were talking, stuart and I were talking, given where we're talking about, how would you, each one of us, how would you particularize both the idea of the Earth being for all humankind? And here's the other issue is that property is not an absolute right.
Speaker 2:I don't know what you mean by that.
Speaker 7:In other words, if you, for example, have a lot of food and somebody is starving, just because the food belongs to you doesn't mean that you have a right to withhold it from them.
Speaker 2:See, I'm glad I asked, because when you say property, I think my house, not my food.
Speaker 7:No, no, I'm talking about any kind of medicine, any kind of property. Ok, so property in and of itself, because that's what we're questioning. Property in and of itself is not an absolute right. You don't have the right. For example, we even we even recognize it when it comes to price gouging. We even recognize it. When it comes to price gouging. Okay, you may have something that somebody needs in an emergency, but there's a law.
Speaker 7:It says you can't gouge them for it, but it's yours, and so notice we're saying it's yours, but there's something wrong with making it an absolute right that you can do whatever the hell you want with it.
Speaker 2:Well, you can do whatever you want with it, but you still have to be reasonable about it.
Speaker 7:Well, mainly because I'm still selling it. I just can't sell it at an inflated price to make more money off of your situation, I know, but see, you're already recognizing that the right, of your right to ownership is not absolute.
Speaker 2:You cannot decide the only time it would become not absolute is if the government feels it has the right to take it from me.
Speaker 7:But on what grounds is the government doing that? They're not. No, but if there's a law against price they can tell me I can sell it.
Speaker 2:They can they start over? I can sell it. I can't gouge the price, okay, but they can say that my price is too high and I have to lower it. But I'm still taking my position and selling it.
Speaker 7:Yes but notice, if you had, you're not understanding the absolute, but it's not absolute. That's exactly what I'm saying. That's not what I meant the right to ownership. If you had an absolute right to ownership, you could say I want to sell it for whatever. I want to sell it and the government shouldn't tell me anything about it.
Speaker 2:It's absolutely mine. Okay, in in that sense that makes it not absolute.
Speaker 4:That's correct, okay david stewart, I mean david, and yeah I, you know, I don't know enough about property law to say in a way I mean, would he be required to sell it at all? I mean, let mean, let's say something was needed, he had it. Let's say he can't gouge the price for it, but he's not, would he be required to sell it?
Speaker 7:Well, would he? For example?
Speaker 4:Again, I don't know property law no.
Speaker 7:but let's not talk about property law and actual law. We can, but there's still a moral, moral issue, but let me give you another example. Uh, you own your house and a freeway's coming through and the government says we're taking your house uh, eminent, eminent domain. Why do they take it for the common good? Notice your right to that house is not absolute right right property.
Speaker 7:Yes, that's true now all I'm saying is we need to begin to to ask the question, because we all law recognizes that there are situations in which you're limited in terms of your property.
Speaker 2:It is not absolute you know, know that when Jefferson developed the life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, his pursuit of property, his property.
Speaker 7:Originally it was pursuit of property that's right, that's right, but I think the very first thing is for us to understand that the right of property Is not absolute.
Speaker 2:Is not absolute In a very absolute sense. It is not absolute, Rudy.
Speaker 5:Well, I can tell you we absolutely didn't create the earth ourselves. So I mean, I kind of fall back to this notion of stewardship, right, and as a Catholic right, and I think about living an authentically Catholic life. If I have more and I see a fellow human down the road that's starving, then I am compelled for that same love of that imago Dei right, that vision, that shared image and likeness of God that I see in my brother and sister, to make sure that they aren't suffering. Right, if it's within my power, my capacity, to affect that in any way, right, and if you think about that right, and if our entire society, entire society, um, thought like that, then, man, this would really be. I'm kind of reminded of this book. Uh, did you guys ever ever read a Thomas Moore's a utopia?
Speaker 7:No, I haven't read it.
Speaker 5:Oh, wow, it's it.
Speaker 5:it kind of man I can't really but it, it, it kind of paints this culture and this society that sort of inverses the value of what Thomas More sort of depicts as the current sort of power plays at the time. For example, in this land they put prisoners in shackles of gold, right where in medieval Europe gold is being extracted from the Americas and it's very valued. So if we had our moral compass and hierarchy properly aligned then I mean, if you ask me, could we end suffering tomorrow? Yeah, starvation tomorrow and hunger tomorrow yeah. If we used all of our defense budget that we have for all the wars and all the mechanisms of destruction that we have, we'd have better health care?
Speaker 2:Yes, we would, but that's a discussion about distribution, not necessarily possession. But I quickly because we're late. But even the idea of having to help someone else who is in need is also not absolute. I don't have to make myself dirt poor by taking all that I have and giving it away?
Speaker 7:No, you do not. You do not. But where is the particular line Right?
Speaker 2:Where I said it and you said it and he says it and they said it.
Speaker 7:That's a $50,000 question line, right where I said it and you said it, he says that they said it's fifty thousand dollar question and this is 1070 k and th and we'll be right back am 1070 the answer?
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Speaker 2:Welcome back to A Show of Faith on AM 1070, the Answer.
Speaker 7:You know, rudy, what I was thinking about when you were talking about. You know your understandings of the Christian understanding of stewardship.
Speaker 2:Well, that's a T. It's stewardship Well, that's a.
Speaker 7:T, it's Stuart, the whole issue that the Pope brings up, and that is the issue of the parable that Jesus gives about the rich man and Lazarus, that Lazarus was dying and starving to death and the rich man didn't even take notice of him. And of course we are Christians, and so that already gives us a very strong understanding that our property is not absolutely ours, that we have a responsibility for all humankind.
Speaker 5:Right, right, and I think that's sort of the fundamental thing, right it is. And back to your point, Father. You talk about particularity. I mean it applies to everything, right, Because this particularity of ideologies, which is the world that we live in, too, right, it's just, it's so fragmented, right? So when we try to make a sort of all catch-all in this example, right, immigration policy, it just doesn't work. It just doesn't work for everybody, and that's just the reality. Some people really think, and there's arguments, right, for having open borders and the economic statuses and Americans are having less babies, and we need the people, and you know, and okay, there's all that, sure. But then you talk about the exploitation, the child trafficking, the pedophilia, all these other things that come with the immigration, right? So it's kind of like you're kind of damned if you do and damned if you don't, right?
Speaker 7:That's why one of the points that I wanted to Go ahead.
Speaker 5:Go ahead. Well, it's just one of the points that I think a lot of people sidestep, too, is part of the responsible citizenship, right, and being a good steward is also being a good steward where I am locally right. So when I think about Guatemala or Brazil, right, it's what am I doing locally in my own country? Right, to help people here, to help policies here that don't cause these mass migrations into the United States? Right, and I think that's a lot of the conversation that people aren't having. I mean, it doesn't stop the reality of what we have, right, which is millions of people trying to cross the border right now, but people think that they're going to the United States to live this wonderful life, and let me tell you, it's hard work over there. It's not easy, right.
Speaker 5:I think there's a lot of misconceptions, too, with that entire. I don't know this kind of stigma of the states and I don't mean to say that it's not a lot. There's not a lot more opportunity in the United States. It's just it's not all daisies and roses like people painted. It's a lot of hard work and it's suffering and you have to cross this desert and it's it's death and it's just horrible.
Speaker 7:I once saw a video on YouTube about a Cuban guy who came to the United States and he was thinking that it was going to be great. You know all kinds of property and stuff like that. And he says he was making a kind of a stinging video saying I feel more imprisoned here because I have to get up in the morning, I have a job, I have to go this, I have to go do this and in cuba you can pre, you're living a fairly low life in terms of benefits or anything like that no food, very little food and stuff like that. But then you make the, you idealize the United States. And when he said, man, this is, I had a lot more. I was not as happy in terms of material wealth, but I had a lot more relaxing and freedom in Cuba.
Speaker 2:There's a wonderful movie with Robin Williams about immigration to the United States. He plays someone who's probably Russian, slavic, whatever, and the trials and tribulations of immigration and it's brilliant and moving and it's a great movie. Robin Williams I can't remember the name of the movie- David, do you have any comments on anything?
Speaker 4:Yeah, gosh, a whole lot A few years ago. Speaking of movies, there was a movie a few years ago that was kind of interesting because it portrayed a cataclysmic thing that was happening to the earth, and that is there was this polar vortex coming down from the north and it made the northern part of our country, this country, uninhabitable, so that in order for people to survive, it was kind of like the reverse of what's going on today. Everybody had to pour into mexico, so there was. It was just this really interesting kind of reverse of what we see happening today, but it was tough. And so the question of the right to migrate. Do we have the right to migrate in order to sustain life, in order to provide for people?
Speaker 7:if there were. And Rudy mentioned it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, the world community does have a duty to countries that are experiencing famines and disasters and wars, and it's best and it's more economical to provide for people where they are and to elevate their lives where they are than it is for them to come to migrate and to move. That's always dodgy, that's always difficult, it's dangerous on so many levels, and so we have to be kind of balancing as a world community between migration issues but also our duty to those countries where you know life is much, much more difficult and dangerous.
Speaker 7:But you know, what's interesting is that if you look at the Kamala Harris tried to do this, but she went down to look at the root causes, you know, of immigration what you find is a lot of corruption, even much more corruption than we have here and more blatant and more blatant.
Speaker 7:And you have the cartels and you have all kinds of stuff. So, in terms of trying to fix the problems of another nation so we can help people remain where they are, that's not so easy because you can't do anything about it. You have to take your military into another nation, and we're facing that right now with the cartels in Mexico. You know, yeah, exactly, and that's where Trump is using economic pressure points to try and bring that about, economic pressure points to try and bring that about. So, and one of the things I did want to say is that, you know, it's very one of the things that I like about being Catholic is this that the Catholic Church, in this and in other topics, we give you the moral high ground, the moral principles, but the Catholic Church is never saying that it itself makes the decision, the particular decisions.
Speaker 2:Define particular decisions, In other words the individual people.
Speaker 7:No, the individual. For example, it says it is not the church's position to make the decisions about how to implement the ideals that we are preaching to you. The government, a government, has to do that.
Speaker 2:Right. They don't take the power of, in this case, the US government to determine who gets to immigrate. That's right.
Speaker 7:The only thing that the Catholic Church and the Catholic bishops and the Pope is saying is here are the Christian principles that we are basing, that we proclaim as true. Now, what we're asking you to do is to recognize the truth of those principles and, within the government, to make those decisions and apply them, but where the church is not going to get into it, and and and do that I think that's brilliant, really.
Speaker 4:Um, it stands by in a way as an advisor, as advisors to the government, to the people, uh, who will be interested in it. One of the things I appreciate about the Catholic moral teaching is that it says that every country, every nation, has the right to regulate their own borders.
Speaker 7:That is correct.
Speaker 4:That they're not required not to regulate borders, but what they're asked to do is to do so. When you regulate them, do what is good for the most people.
Speaker 7:That's right In compassion.
Speaker 2:Mario, don't you think that there's also a real misunderstanding of Catholicism, because it's Catholic Charities, yes, who take care of immigrants, whether they are legal or illegal. Once they are here, that's correct, and then people turn around misunderstanding this and think that the Catholic Church promotes illegal immigration?
Speaker 7:And I saw that this morning. Really Well, I saw that this morning because Cardinal Dolan in New York was being interviewed in Fox News. In Fox News and Cardinal Dolan, one of the interviewers, said you know, isn't the Catholic Church facilitating, you know, the immigration I mean illegal immigrants? And Cardinal Dolan was correct. He says look, when a person presents themselves in front of us, we do not ask are you a citizen?
Speaker 2:Are you legal? Are you a good guy or a bad guy?
Speaker 7:we are. We are there because you are human, right. See, our understanding is that you are not primarily an american or a mexican or any, or russian, whatever. You are primarily a human being made in the image and likeness of god, and we have a responsibility to the dignity of your humanity that tells us we cannot let you starve, we have to you fill the need of the one in front of you.
Speaker 2:In front of you, the one at hand.
Speaker 7:That's correct. We're not there. Classic Jewish concept. Yeah, we're not there to ask you know, are you legal? Are you illegal?
Speaker 2:or stuff like that. The commandment in hand, the one in hand, the closest. That is correct. Okay, who do you have in front of you?
Speaker 7:Well, David, you were going to say something. Actually, David, say it when you come back, because we're going to have to go away. This is 1070 KNTH and we'll be right back.
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Speaker 14:The answer this land is your land. This land is my land from california oh interesting to the new york island, from the redwood forest to the gulf stream waters. This land was made for you and me. As I was walking that ribbon of highway, I saw above me that endless skyway. I saw below me that golden valley. This land was made for you and me. I've roamed and rambled and I followed my footsteps to the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts.
Speaker 2:Welcome back to a show of faith on Amtent's In the Answer.
Speaker 7:Sometimes I wish we could listen to an entire song. Yeah, me too.
Speaker 2:But you remind me what songs I need to go look up when I get home on YouTube or something. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 7:Okay, where should we go, Any of the three of us four?
Speaker 5:of us Rabbi.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 5:Hold on Was the movie you were thinking of with Robin Williams. Moscow on the Hudson.
Speaker 2:Moscow on the Hudson Brilliant movie. Get a chance to watch it, especially with the issue of immigration and what it means to emigrate. Oh, actually, rudy, I had a question Now. When you came over to the United States, it was for school, right.
Speaker 5:No, well, yeah, we initially stayed with, we initially had a tourist visa, but the United States passed a naturalization amnesty for Nicaraguan refugees. Okay, so my mom was.
Speaker 7:I was going to just say Rudy. No, I was. Was going to say Rudy that's exactly what happened with Cubans.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but, rudy, you're not Nicaragua, are you I?
Speaker 5:thought you were Guatemala. Yeah, no, my mom is Nicaragua and when I came to the States I came with my mom, so I was able to uh, she was naturalized. And then she she applied for my naturalization as well.
Speaker 2:Be that as it may, my question had to do with the difficulty, the what you went through to actually immigrate. I mean, you're you're talking you're talking legal immigration, because you were tourists and then they said, okay, you can become citizens, but what was the experience? Like I mean, how old were you at the time?
Speaker 5:I was between the ages of 10 and 11, essentially when I initially came over, came over probably don't remember, and I didn't, and I and I didn't finalize my naturalization until I was 18,.
Speaker 2:I think All right. So how did you find the experience? Are you just so young? You just went with the flow and did what mom and dad said, or whatever.
Speaker 5:Well, the initial thing was language right, so that was. And I had taken English classes in Guatemala, so I knew English, but I didn't speak it right. I felt very out of place. I felt I was sort of bullied a little bit, but I was also kind of a big guy, so yeah, but that's bullying can happen when you're born and raised in the US.
Speaker 2:I mean that just that doesn't. I was just wondering what the experience was like of immigration. But, you're too young.
Speaker 5:Yeah, honestly, it was when I had to, when I actually had to visit the immigration offices. I found them a bit. I remember being actually kind of scared. I don't blame you. Because I didn't know what was going to happen.
Speaker 5:You know, I was with my mom and my dad wasn't there and we had to pay money for lawyers and we had to go to this office and there's a lot of people I mean, and people in these places, I mean people like they're crying, they got people taken out. I mean, and people in these places, I mean people like they're crying, they got people taken out. I mean there's a lot going on sometimes in these places right at the USCIS offices, so it's kind of scary, honestly.
Speaker 7:You just don't know what's going on, and I find it heartbreaking for me because I am fluent in Spanish. My work is almost 100% I would say maybe 95% with Hispanics and I am constantly running across.
Speaker 2:Problems with immigration.
Speaker 7:Immigration problems, people scared, problems with immigration, immigration problems, people scared. And so I can think abstractly, philosophically, about how to particularize the abstract stuff that we're talking about. But when I see in front of me a young lady crying because she's scared to death of the immigration, of going back, of going back, here's the problem. A lot of these kids that I work with because I work a lot with young people these kids were brought here when they were two and three years old.
Speaker 2:They've only known the US.
Speaker 7:That's all they know, and they hardly speak Spanish, some of them, and so for them to be deported, it's just one of those things that you go. Where do I go? All of my family is here. I don't speak hardly Spanish, and that's when your your heart just breaks because you need law, but at the same time, you have this human being in front of you.
Speaker 2:Well, you're supposed to balance law with compassion, that is correct that.
Speaker 7:I think that that's what the church is getting at. You do have we do have the right as a government to restrict immigration and to control our borders. There's no question, that's a part of the church teaching. But the question is how far do you open the spigot? Where is the line drawn? That's why I began with the scandal and you still want it done, legally, that's correct.
Speaker 2:I mean you can open the spigot, this scandal, they want it done legally. That's correct. You can open the spigot illegally, but they want it done legally.
Speaker 7:David, anything, Hello David.
Speaker 2:David, you probably ought to go help somebody, but all right, no, I'm here, sorry, Okay, sorry about that.
Speaker 7:Yeah.
Speaker 4:One of the things I wanted to mention was, just very briefly, another parable of Jesus, and here's the quotation where Jesus is responding. He says I was a stranger and you took me in. And Jesus? What happens in that parable is that Jesus is so closely identified with the alien, with the stranger, that to take in the alien is to provide sustenance for Jesus himself.
Speaker 4:That's right he's really close problem is that we, we don't understand the language of rights and and what is a human right and what is a right under the american government?
Speaker 4:Right, so right, uh, so so it's, it's basic to human life to say food and shelter and maybe clothing and health care, those kind of things. And yet how does that work within the nation? How does that work? So this is what I see what's happening so brilliantly with Catholic Charities and other groups as well, where they're providing for these human beings basic human rights the right to be warm on a cold night, the right to have food when your belly is empty, those kind of things. Those things are human rights and not necessarily rights that are given by the American or recognized by the American government. But to do all this is to do so recognizing that okay, when we've had a broken system for so long, you have to pay for things that are broken. It has cost a lot of money. No nation has to receive this is in the document you sent us no nation has to receive so many immigrants that it puts their nation itself in jeopardy economically.
Speaker 7:Otherwise, so that's correct.
Speaker 4:The fact that we've had a broken system for so long means that this is going to cost us an enormous amount of money to fix it.
Speaker 7:That is correct, because what's happened is that now we're reacting to an awful situation which Biden brought about by opening the floodgates.
Speaker 2:I don't think we've seen part of the problem, because I think part of the problem is who came across the border illegally and what they're going to do whenever they do it. Now that they're here and I'm talking about terrorists being led into the United States Yep, it's going to be interesting to see.
Speaker 7:Yes.
Speaker 2:Stuart, well, I was just going to say we've only got a few minutes left, but recently I know the Pope has had health problems. Yes, and just quickly. Can you talk about that?
Speaker 7:the the reports that we're getting out of rome is that the pope is in serious, serious condition. His doctors say he's not near death. That's what the doctors have been saying, but it is very serious that he's got double pneumonia and there's stuff going on in the background that, if he dies, they've already starting to prepare for the election of a new pope. Right so, um, right now everybody's just waiting on pins and needles. We just don't know.
Speaker 2:Mario remind me how old the Pope is 88. Wow, Okay.
Speaker 7:He's 88 with double pneumonia. You know so that.
Speaker 4:My recollection is that he had had some very significant lung problems early in life.
Speaker 7:He's missing one half of one lung. Oh, so you know, it could go either way in the next few days and I sort of think that, even if he gets out of this, that he will probably I mean, I can't predict it, but I think he would give a lot of thought to resign, right, because to keep up as a pope at 88 years old with getting these Attacks?
Speaker 2:or whatever you want to call them.
Speaker 7:Yeah, that's not going to be. I don't think he can do it. So anyway, any of you out there just keep him in your prayers.
Speaker 4:Thank you, definitely, yeah, definitely Gosh.
Speaker 7:Who's in charge next week? We only have a minute left.
Speaker 4:I think I am in charge. Next week I am going to usurp responsibility.
Speaker 7:Is that your topic?
Speaker 4:I'm going to usurpation. Am I for it or against it? I like that.
Speaker 7:Well, it'll be a surprise to see what you come up with, David.
Speaker 4:It'll be, yeah, it'll be a surprise to both of us.
Speaker 7:To both of us you SERP, I SERP, we all SERP, we all SERP. Rudy, thank you for being here from Brazil. Have a great trip back to Guatemala.
Speaker 5:Thank you guys. Have a great night you too.
Speaker 7:Okay, then we will be back next week with David being in charge. So you've been listening to the show of faith here on 1070 KNTH. Please keep the Pope in your prayers, but keep us in your prayers, and we'll see you next week.
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