A Show of Faith
Millennial, Priest, Minister, and Rabbi walk into a radio station...
A Show of Faith
June 22, 2025 When Matter Becomes Holy: Our Relationship with Sacred Objects
What makes an object sacred? Is it divine designation, human recognition, or something else entirely? Our interfaith panel dives deep into the fascinating world of sacred objects and their role in connecting us to the transcendent.
Father Mario offers a compelling metaphor: at creation, all matter possessed a mirror-like quality designed to reflect divine light. Though this reflective potential was diminished through human sin, the incarnation of Christ began the restoration process, allowing physical objects to once again mediate divine presence. This theology explains why Catholics value sacred objects so highly—from Eucharistic elements to blessed crucifixes, these items serve as tangible connections to spiritual realities.
The conversation takes unexpected turns as panel members share personally meaningful sacred objects. David speaks movingly about his son's ashes, while Father Mario mentions his late father's bathrobe—simple everyday items transformed into profound connections with loved ones who have passed on. As Rabbi notes, "holy" simply means "set apart"—different and special from ordinary things.
Perhaps most fascinating is the scientific dimension. Recent neuroscience research reveals that when people encounter objects they consider sacred, specific brain regions activate—particularly areas associated with emotional significance and memory. This suggests humans may be biologically wired to experience transcendence through physical things.
Despite growing secularism, the panel observes hopeful signs of religious revival—increasing baptisms, conversions, and Bible sales indicate that purely materialistic worldviews have failed to satisfy the human hunger for meaning. Even those without religious faith still treat certain objects as sacred, suggesting our need for physical reminders of spiritual connections is universal and deeply human.
Join us as we explore this profound paradox: the very objects meant to unite believers with the divine often become the things that create our deepest divisions. What can we learn from the way we all—religious or not—honor certain objects as special and set apart?
Well, I guess it would be nice If I could touch your body. I know, not everybody has got a body like you, but I gotta think twice Before I give my heart away. And I know all the games you play Because I play them too. Oh, but I need some time off From that emotion, time to pick my part up off the floor. Oh well, that love comes down with a devotion. Well, it takes a storm, baby, but I'm sure I'll shoot the door, cause I gotta have faith. I gotta have faith Cause I gotta have faith. I don't think we're on. I can't hear it.
Speaker 2:I can't no Nothing on my earphones.
Speaker 3:You can't hear through your earphones.
Speaker 2:No, which I'm fine. I mean, the only thing I don't need is to. I guess I don't need to listen to Rudy or David.
Speaker 3:I mean, what does he know? He's on a master's degree. Wow, oh no.
Speaker 2:I can hear Rudy. Yeah, I can hear Rudy. Okay, I can't hear myself. That's it. That's it, okay.
Speaker 4:Roger, are you in studio?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm here, mario's here.
Speaker 5:Live Mario made it Welcome back.
Speaker 2:Welcome back. I got back Saturday.
Speaker 3:Yesterday, yesterday.
Speaker 2:I'm still a little bit tipsy.
Speaker 4:We can't hear the rabbi. I don't know, David.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we can't.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I'm not hearing Stuart much All right Rabbi, just bring in the whole group. Hello.
Speaker 3:Every time I know.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's mine.
Speaker 5:That's yours, we're trying to sort this out. Folks, sorry about this. Got some challenges technical challenges here tonight technical challenges we work with can you guys hear me? Yeah, we can hear you now, rabbi. In fact, you're way too loud, that's even better.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I know you. You would say that not speaking at all would be the best. All right, so this is the Show of Faith on AM1070, the Answer where minister, priest, professor, professor, priest, millennial and rabbi discuss theology, philosophy, morality and ethics and anything else of interest in religion. If you have any response to our topics or any comments regarding what we say, we would love to hear from you. Email us at ashowoffaith1070 at gmailcom. That's ashowoffaith1070 at gmailcom. That's it. You can hear our shows again and again by listening, pretty much everywhere podcasts are heard. Our priest is Father Mario Arroyo, retired pastor of St Cyril of Alexandria, the 10,000 block of Westheimer.
Speaker 3:Hello, Our professor is david capes, protestant minister, director of academic programming for the linear theological library great to be with you guys tonight rudy congas, our millennial systems engineer and master's degree in theology from the university of saint thomas howdy, howdy I am rabbi stewart federo, retired rabbi of congregation the clear lake area of houston, texas. Crystal yeah, I'm so bad with names. Crystal is our board operator tonight. Thank you, crystal, you make us sound wonderful thank you, crystal she didn't have her earphones on. So he said thank you, crystal. Father mario, tell us about your trip. Did you have fun? She didn't have her earphones on.
Speaker 5:so he said thank you, Chris. Oh, no problem. Yes, right, Father Mario, tell us about your trip.
Speaker 2:Did you have fun? Yeah, I did, you know. No, by the way, for those of you who are wondering what trip I went to Spain and Portugal and it was very good, but no two weeks, whenever you're okay, Everything's going to go well. But I would say 80% went very well, good, very well.
Speaker 5:That's pretty good yeah.
Speaker 2:My favorite was Portugal. I loved Portugal. It's wonderful. I had a wonderful time there. I'd never been there. I found it just easy to understand a little bit.
Speaker 3:Really Between Portuguese and Spanish.
Speaker 2:Portuguese and Spanish are pretty good. You may speak slow enough, and it was really very, very good. And I went to Fatima, the Arlenia, fatima.
Speaker 5:Did you really yeah Wow?
Speaker 2:And that was very interesting.
Speaker 5:Now for those who don't know what Fatima is what is Fatima?
Speaker 2:Fatima is an apparition of the Blessed Mother that occurred in the late 19th century, I think.
Speaker 4:Rudy is that correct. I want to say early. Wasn't it 1920, when the it was already 20th century?
Speaker 2:I don't remember, but it was very, very good. I enjoyed it very much so welcome back, thank you.
Speaker 3:Rudy, you are a show director.
Speaker 4:I am and it's kind of it's kind of curious that, rudy, you are a show director, I am, and it's kind of curious that Meyer kind of brings this. It's kind of on my list too going to Panama as Catholics. It's a pretty sort of I mean, of course you're not obligated to go, or even really kind of it's just a site of great devotion, right. So what's the topic Based on our last conversation, I wanted to talk today about and, david, I think you kind of touched on it too on what you mentioned earlier in our chat I wanted to talk about objects, right, and the effect that these objects, and specifically sacred objects, have in physical things, our universe, materiality, creation.
Speaker 4:Now, I wanted to start by kind of giving a couple things that of course I read the Bible and I'm not a biblical scholar by any means, that I don't pretend to be I read it, I read it every day and and um, there's always I don't know, I mean of course, for you guys, but there's always some passages that just kind of they kind of like just live rent free in my brain like all the time and, and I kind of go through phases, um, um, for example, the, the, the verse of, of, when jesus, like, condemns this, this fig tree, uh, that one, this man, lived red tree in my brain for for a while.
Speaker 4:But, um, the, the one that has been most in my brain and led me really to this, to choosing this, this, uh, this topic stemmed from, from the reading in exodus, um, uh, 25, where god, um, he gives moses precise and specific, um sort of specifications for the ark of the covenant, right, I mean, and it's quite a bit of the chapter, right, it's like 13, 14 verses, right, and it's the specific wood and it's like two and a half cubits long, a cube and a half wide, you know, and it's just very intricate and very, very specific dimensions. The material of gold it's supposed to be made of gold, molding right and around it, and there's just this entire detail of it. And then it got me to thinking too, the effect that the Ark had in other passages, right, and I'm reminded of Samuel, specifically, of Samuel specifically, and most I don't know if I'm saying it the Philistines, right, it's when the Philistines they take the Ark of the Covenant and there's just a huge death toll that amounts within the Philistine sort of community, and they're absolutely terrified until they return the Ark back to Israel. And so that got me thinking. There's a lot of objects, literal objects, right, or material things that have this. I don't want to say just divine aura, this, I don't want to say just divine aura.
Speaker 4:Take the staff of Moses right and and within the the newer testaments, I thought about the garment, right, jesus, this garment, when, when there's this woman that has the hemorrhage and she's trying to find some sort of solution to this and she spends all her money and all her money I think it's Mark Mark, chapter five and she goes and just touches Jesus' garment and Jesus feels that there's this power. That's and he says it, something's drained out of me, right, and so I wanted to talk about the importance that this has had, because, for, for a lot of, for a lot of history, um, art, god was always depicting things in a particular way. Right, god presented himself in a particular way to humanity, right, and of course, jesus came and sort of put everything sort of on its heels, right, I mean, when John says in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
Speaker 4:This kind of birth of God into the world changes the way we see these types of—I'm just going to use the form of Jesus Christ to just objects. Right, I mean, as much as he is man, he's also God, at least to our understanding as Christians. Now, before that, god uses multiple objects to perform miracles, right of his divine sort of will, of his presence. I'm reminded of the burning bush and even today and I kind of want to sort of break it down a little bit further, right, because I think within each of our religions and David you kind of have I'd like to talk a little bit about some of the differences too, because I think as Catholics, we put maybe a very high value on these types of objects, and there's some cultural things that we all sort of agree on that are important that we value.
Speaker 5:Rudy, I think what I would probably disagree with the idea that they're called divine objects. I think I would prefer to call them just simply sacred objects that we accord to them, we assign to them some kind of sacredness. And yeah, it could begin with God. It could begin with God describing the tabernacle, the Ark of the Covenant and its construction, the ephod or the garment worn by the high priest, all of that. But I wouldn't say that these objects are divine. What I would prefer to say is that we regard them in some sense as sacred and they carry upon them some sense of transcendent quality that is distinct from a bowl that you would find in the kitchen, let's say a bowl that you would find in the kitchen, let's say a bowl that you would have in the temple. Does that make sense?
Speaker 4:Yeah, now I think it's an important distinction to make, right, because we, as Catholics, live this every Sunday with the Eucharist and the transubstantiation.
Speaker 2:So before that moment, yeah, I would say that the Eucharist and I'm glad you mentioned that, because the Eucharist and this is where I would I don't know how David would come down on this, but for Catholics, the Eucharist is a divine object- but would you classify it the same way you would classify a cross around your neck?
Speaker 2:No, not at all. That's the distinction. Not at all. I mean, when you are consuming the bread or the wine which is the Eucharist, it's a different quality. You're talking about the very body and blood of the Lord. 30 seconds, that's where things very much change. But let's go to a break and we'll continue this, because that's a fascinating transition between that. So this is KMTH 1070. You're listening to the Show of Faith here.
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Speaker 1:You're an angel to me, johnny Angel. How I love him, how I tingle when he passes by. Every time he says hello, my heart begins to fly, johnny Angel. My heart begins to fly, johnny Angel, how I want him. He's got something that I can't resist, but he doesn't even know that I exist. I'm in heaven. I get carried away. I dream of him and me and how it's gonna be. All the fellas call me up for a date, but I just sit and wait. I'd rather concentrate on Johnny Angel, cause I love him and I pray that someday he'll love me, and together we will see how lovely heaven will be.
Speaker 3:And together we will see how lovely heaven will be Welcome back to A Show of Faith on AM 1070 Answer. And for those of you who we hope are listening to us, we have an announcement On July 6th, the first Sunday of July, we are going to entertain your questions. Your emailed-in questions Go to ashowoffaith1070 at gmailcom. Ashowoffaith1070 at gmailcom. Put a show of faith in the subject line and email us your questions and if we like your questions, we'll answer them on the air.
Speaker 5:What if we don't like them? Then we'll answer them on the air. Well, we don't like them. What if we don't like them?
Speaker 2:Yeah, then we'll ignore them, oh, okay.
Speaker 1:Or we might answer them anyway.
Speaker 2:We will not ignore them.
Speaker 3:Okay, fine, but we haven't done this in a long time. We're not on the air for two hours, we're only on the air for one hour. How's that a diplomatic way? And we stopped taking phone calls, but we missed the interplay, we missed talking with people, so I don't yes, there are parts of me that also does not.
Speaker 2:Yes, well, david, you know, david, we we can say, hey, we miss you, we miss you. I really don't. A lot of people we used to call men.
Speaker 3:Oh no, they used to use us to get to our audiences.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah so anyway, let's go back to the subject.
Speaker 3:Right so.
Speaker 2:Rudy, where do you want to go with this?
Speaker 4:Rabbi.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 4:So we're talking about objects and I think we came to a very sort of interesting distinction that kind of separates how we see and experience and sort of engage with the transcendent as far as us Catholics understand it now, um, I don't think, I don't know if within judaism now, um, I mean, would you go as far as to call the ark of the covenant a divine?
Speaker 3:I mean, it's considered a sacred thing sacred, the word I would use right this is what it was understood at, but it wasn't God.
Speaker 3:But the word I would use would be holy or sacred, set apart. What does holy mean? Holy means set apart, different, distinct, special, and there might be a whole bunch of different boxes that are inlaid with gold and whatever, but it's not the Ark. The Ark is separate, special, different from all the other boxes with gold laid onto it. You know, a crucifix is plenty of gold jewelry, but a crucifix or a cross is different than any other piece of jewelry.
Speaker 2:It's sacred set apart. Sacred art.
Speaker 3:Exactly, it's holy, set apart, different, distinct. And to me, rudy, what was most interesting about what you wrote to us setting up our discussion for tonight is that human beings need their physical reminders of their spiritual relationships. Yeah, you know, and it doesn't matter if it's a cross, crucifix high around the neck, yarmulke on top of the head or WWJD bracelet.
Speaker 2:We need our reminders one of the things that I think is important, because when Rudy brought this up, I thought it was very good. Yeah, me too, because we're talking about what we call Catholicism has all kinds of sacred stuff. I mean, if you think about it, for example, how do we we as Catholics we as Catholics understand our communication with God? I just spoke today about the whole idea that when you communicate, you need a person to answer back. So how do we hear from God? We can talk to God, but how do you hear from God?
Speaker 2:Now, I don't know if this is the same. What I'm going to say is the same thing as the Baptist or the Protestant traditions, as far as they exist. But, for example, for us, when you talk about the sacraments, the sacraments, we have seven sacraments, and the seven sacraments are each one of them have what's called matter and form? Are each one of them have what's called matter and form? Okay, so, for example, what is the matter and the form of baptism? Well, the matter of baptism is water, but the form is I baptize you in the name of the Father, son and the Holy Spirit, amen, okay, so my form. Form is the words, the words that you speak, yeah, the words that you speak, yeah, the words that you speak. So, for example, in the Sacrament of Reconciliation, the matter is the imposition of hands, and then the form is I absolve you from all of your sins. In the Eucharist, the matter is the bread and the wine and the form is Jesusesus's words of institution.
Speaker 3:So for you, the form isn't, whether or not it's full submersion or sprinkle or whatever.
Speaker 2:No, it's the actual words when I hear the word form I think how it's done.
Speaker 2:No, the form is the word okay, okay, okay. And so, for example, in in anointing of the sick, uh, is the oil you will use, oil to anoint, you know? And and in confirmation, oil, sacred chrism is a different kinds of, there's different kinds of oils and oils are used. So for us it's sacred stuff, but I I just want to and I'll say this very quickly because I know we're coming up to a break what I see is that at the beginning of creation here's how I understand this is just a little parable. I made up Not parable a little image I made up At the beginning of creation.
Speaker 2:I believe almost everything in the world had a mirror surface. Imagine that everything had a mirror surface. What does a mirror do? A mirror reflects light. Okay, when human beings committed the original sin which that's what it's saying what is the back of a mirror? Look like? The back of a mirror is black. You don't get it. Imagine the whole of creation, instead of reflecting God's light, turned upside down, and so the whole of creation no longer reflected light. When Jesus becomes human, by taking on matter, human matter, he begins the turning around of matter to be reflective of God. And so, all of a sudden, now you have holy objects. Why holy objects or sacred objects? Because since, for us, as Catholics or Christians, since the incarnation, all of matter now has the possibility of being reflective of light, and we'll continue this brilliant example when we come back after the break. This is 1070 KFDH and we'll be right back 1070 and FM 1033, the Answer.
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Speaker 2:Welcome back to the show of faith.
Speaker 3:Yes, welcome back to the show of faith.
Speaker 2:I'll just finish with you know I was using the image of the mirror Mirror right.
Speaker 2:That reality has the potential of reflecting the sacred. So whenever, see we as Catholics, we got all kinds of holy stuff, you know we got. We got holy bread, we got holy wine, we got holy statues bread, we got holy wine, we got holy statues. We got a holy objects. We even have holy smoke. Okay, with the insects, and so for us, reality is has the potential to reflect the holy and, and that is sacred objects. Of course it's a hierarchy of sacred objects. The most sacred object is, of course, when the object itself becomes the presence of God himself in the Eucharist. Okay, but from down, from there, you have the sacramental matter, like baptism has water and the holy oils and things like that, and then you have what's called the sacramentals, which is whenever I bless anything, you know you're elevating it to reflect.
Speaker 2:I basically understand that I'm taking, say, a crucifix. A crucifix is just metal they can make them off a factory. But when a person comes to me and I bless a crucifix, what I understand I'm doing is that I'm turning that object over and so that the mirror surface of that object, the potential that that object had to be reflective of the divine, becomes active, so that for that person especially, and to some degree in and of itself, that objects becomes now reflective of the actual light of christ.
Speaker 3:And see I, I would argue, and they will not agree with me is that the secular community. They may not have objects that reflect the divine, but they have sacred and holy things to them.
Speaker 2:That's what's called. That's what's called civil religion exactly civil, but they will.
Speaker 3:They will treat objects. Yeah, like the religious will treat religious objects and set apart special secular.
Speaker 2:The secular life has has liturgies. You know, for example, the changing of the guard. Oh, the two new in england right. Or they have liturgical music. You know hail to the chief. You know, whatever we have the american national anthem? Absolutely, we have, you know that's. That's a whole area of study called civil religion and how civil life becomes very much like religious life. Yes, so anyway, rudy, that's all yeah let me.
Speaker 4:Go ahead, David.
Speaker 5:Well, let me just suggest First of all, I like the analogy that you use about the mirror and all of matter being able to be turned. I see that as a work of God. I see that as something that really is beyond us as human beings. We can work with God, religious or not.
Speaker 5:that sacramentalizes a variety of things, and to regard certain items, certain things as having sacredness that have nothing to do with religion but have all to do with things that are just greater than we are, and I think about the graveside of someone who has passed away, and I think about the graves itself, and I think about the headstone, and I think about people going to those spots, laying flowers, absolutely, and the place. They may have no religion at all, but but nevertheless, that little bit of real estate where their beloved mother or grandmother or father are buried is a very special, special place for them.
Speaker 2:When things happen there, you know, david, anything like, for example, in my, in my room, in my house, I have an old bathrobe that I cannot throw away, and the reason is that that was the bathrobe that my father was wearing throughout his cancer and he died in that, and so that is a sacred object, exactly.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and you regard that not like you would the Eucharist or something else, right, but still it occupies a very special place for you, and that's the steward's definition of what holiness is being made special, set apart, and I think that's just part of it. There's an old expression called there's no honor, there's honor among thieves. You know, honor means essentially, I give weight to something. That thing has weight in my life, it has significance. So, regardless of a person's morals or lack of morals, or religiosity or lack of religiosity, we each reach for and have things that we honor and that we regard as distinct from everything else around it, whether it's a bathrobe or my son's ashes.
Speaker 5:Daniel's ashes are in my bedroom and that, to me, is a very special thing, and from time to time I'll put my hand on it, I'll talk to my son, I'll talk to God, and this represents for me the last remaining physical evidence of my son's life, right, yeah, and when you have that, it's not just a thing. It's not just a thing, it's something. I have no clue what will happen with it once I'm left this earth, but it's still for me. I regard it as deeply emotional, sacred, spiritual.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, think about wedding rings. You know, rudy, when you look at your hand and in your wife's hand and you see that wedding ring, and you see, yeah, so that's a sacred object. It, they're, they're, they're objects that bring you in touch with the transcendent. They're objects that are tied, that give you a sense of what is beyond. That's what I what I call sacramental.
Speaker 3:But you notice how they all have functions. Well, they are Not necessarily the secular objects, like the robe, it had a function keeping warm or whatever. But the religious items have a function. Okay, the water I don't know, this is a Christian theological statement, I guess I'm probably misstating, but it cleanses the soul. Yes, that's correct. Okay, the yarmulke okay, is a physical reminder. There's a reason for it. There's a Deuteronomy 6 object we put on a door post. It's a physical reminder of our spiritual relationship, a reminder to keep the commandments. It has explicit function.
Speaker 2:You know, I see this as tremendously connected to the etymology of the word religion, because remember the word religion, re. Anytime you put re in front of anything, it means do it again, right, okay. Ligion is a form of the word religion read. Anytime you put re in front of anything, it means do it again, right, okay. Ligion is a form of the word ligada, which means to connect like ligament. Ligament, that's right. So, really, god is to reconnect, and so there are objects that literally reconnect you right to some kind of transcendent experience that I would argue in some way is tied to the divine. I would say, for example, my father's robe is a tie that I have to his memory, but he is already in God.
Speaker 3:And parents represent God to children. Yes, so it's even a greater connection to children. Yes, so it's even a greater connection to God. That's right. Yeah, coming to your father.
Speaker 2:Rudy, your turn. This is your subject.
Speaker 4:Yeah, well, I wanted to talk a little bit about some of the neuroscience of sacred objects, because I think it's quite important. There's an important research that was done by Dr Andrew Newberg out of the Thomas Jefferson University, and this guy, he spent decades studying the brains of people and he would do scans on them as they would engage in religious practices. He published this book called how God Changes your Brain. It's pretty interesting, but he writes this and this is kind of a quick excerpt.
Speaker 4:But when subjects view objects they consider sacred whether a cross or a scroll or prayer beads, whether a cross or a scroll or prayer beads we see activation in the limbic system, particularly the amygdala and the hippocampus, which are predominantly areas associated with emotional significance and memory. Now simultaneously, the posterior superior parietal lobe, and I know that's a lot, but what this does is it helps orient ourselves in space and time. This part of the brain shows a decrease in activity. So to me it's not only you know, we're sitting here describing the transcendent. We're sitting here describing the transcendent, but there is a literal, biological sort of reaction that is also going on within yourself.
Speaker 2:There's no question about that. But I think all that that is saying is we are a function of body and soul, and what that's saying is this is where, materially, it's occurring. It doesn't tell you what the experience is but there's a physical response to it well, we're physical beings, right, and so it doesn't surprise me that there would be a physical response to it and so, but? But it doesn't tell you what the connection is it? For example, you can experience beauty somewhere and the brain will react to it, but that you wouldn't say reaction is beauty itself.
Speaker 2:You know so. But I would say that because it is 8 45 that we have to go to a break, that that experience of a break is not easy to experience, right especially when we're ready to keep talking. I'll keep my mouth shut. This is 1070 Cantia. We'll be right back.
Speaker 7:AM 1070, the answer.
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Speaker 10:A message from T dot mike gallagher reflects on the past decade 10 years ago this week, donald trump came down the golden escalator and for a decade now we have seen the political landscape, the cultural landscape. We've seen it all upended. It's been completely upended by this man.
Speaker 7:He's changed everything and it's a big deal the Mike Gallagher Show weekday mornings at 8 on AM 1070 and FM 103.3.
Speaker 3:The Answer Before we go on. Wait. Before we do that again. I want to say that if you have any question for minister or priest or rabbi or millennial master's degree in theology, email us at ashowoffaith1070, ashowoffaith1070 at gmailcom and put in the subject line A of faith and July 6th.
Speaker 2:We might actually answer your question on the air yeah, before we go on, I would like to have recommend a book that I think is tremendous. It is. The book is just called Believe. The title of the book is just called Believe, okay, and the book is by Ross Douthat. Now let me spell that Basically.
Speaker 2:The whole point is why everyone should be religious, why non-belief requires ignoring what our reasoning faculties tell us about the world. That book is a masterpiece, I really think. How do you spell? Ross is R-O-S-S and the last name is Doudat D-O-U-T-H-A-T, so it's like the last name is D O and then the word that D-O-U, d-o, no, just D-O-U, d-o-u, and then the word that, okay, ross got that and he is the he is the religion reporter for the New York Times, okay, and he's excellent. He wrote another book which I'm reading right now called Bad Religion, and he's excellent. He wrote another book which I'm reading right now called Bad Religion. He's excellent too, but I cannot recommend this book highly enough. Ross Daldat, believe. Why Everyone Should Be Religious, why non-belief requires ignoring what our reasoning faculties tell us about the world. And then how?
Speaker 5:No, I think that reminds me what Rudy was talking about a minute ago, and what he was underscoring about how our brains respond to certain things.
Speaker 2:Well, and that's exactly.
Speaker 5:It's exactly the reason the scriptures tell us that we are fearfully and wonderfully made.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 5:And that we have not even scratched the surface of neuroscience and what brains do and how our left brain and right brain and this and that relate I mean we know very little and this and that relate to I mean we know very little about it. So I think a part of what is going to be happening in medical over the next 50 years is going to be deeper and deeper explorations into the brain and humanity and all that. But it doesn't surprise me to hear that there are certain kinds of responses in the brain when we encounter these objects, when we encounter this idea of sacredness and transcendence.
Speaker 2:Well, it's interesting because in this book part of the tagline is how an open-minded religious quest should proceed.
Speaker 3:And then Sorry, go ahead. Quest should proceed. And then, sorry, go ahead, go ahead. David, one of those. I have to tell you that one of the most brilliant proofs for the existence of god is based around you know what mario and you were just talking about? That the human brain reacts to something spiritual. Do you remember what I'm talking about?
Speaker 5:Yeah, yeah, I mean a few years ago. I'm not sure whether this is exactly what you're referring to, but scientists, researchers, discovered what they thought on a certain type of MRI that reflects I think it's magnetism that reflects blood flow, that kind of thing that shows certain parts of the brain lighting up, as it were, when there's meditation going on, when there's prayer going on, when there are certain spiritual experiences that they're having. Is that what you're referring to, stuart?
Speaker 3:Well, explicitly, what you said that night on a show of faith was we have eyes because there's something to see, we have ears because there's something to hear and the brain responds to the divine because there's God. Yeah, as a proof for the existence of God.
Speaker 2:I thought was just brilliant it's very simple what I was trying to say before I started coughing. I'm trying to get over a cold. One of the taglines is how modern scientific developments make religious worldview more credible, not less.
Speaker 4:Haley. Yes, one of the things that I think is crucial, especially in today's day and age, is there's definitely a rise in atheism, and I completely agree with what you guys were saying.
Speaker 4:I think in the secular world there's a sacredness that they still hold quote-unquote outside of religion, and I think most predominantly you can see it in this sort of modern psychology that we see today and sort of the deviation of the transcendent that's occurred and there's been a lot of cases, and I know we only have a couple more minutes left, but I kind of wanted to talk a little bit about this sort of within the modern context, maybe just a minute or two each of how do you guys see it, sort of understanding or what you find. I mean, for example, david, we could disagree on the objects that we hold sacred, but we both hold certain objects sacred and I would never tell you you know, that's not a sacred object, because I don't have the same experiences that you have. I mean it would be like me telling David you know that's not a sacred object because I don't have the same experiences that you have. I mean it would be like me telling David you know your son's ashes? They're just ashes. You know it's a crazy thing to say to somebody.
Speaker 4:And I think we're in a crucial time within our sort of culture where we're kind of trying to strip all this meaning of something and of the transcendent and just kind of refocus it on just the materiality. So I guess what I want to ask each one of you guys real quick is just kind of how do you see it, or what are your fears really of, kind of what the future brings, or do you see these conflicts at all?
Speaker 2:kind of in the same way, yeah, I will respond to that, rudy. I think what's happening right now is the beginnings of a religious revival, from your mouth to God's ears. Yeah, I think you're right. Yeah, because I don't know if you've been hearing about the British report in the Catholic media or even in secular media that baptisms and professions of faith and membership in the Catholic Church is going up.
Speaker 2:This last year we saw a tremendous rise in the number of people coming into the Catholic Church and into Judaism as well, and Judaism as well In the synagogue and the church, absolutely. David, have you noticed anything like that?
Speaker 5:Well, listen, it wasn't long ago. There was an article in the Wall Street Journal that demonstrated and it's a very curious thing that Bible sales were up 23 percent over previous years. Now, when you think about that, that's a lot of money, that's a lot of print 23 percent and most of those, many of those were among first-time bible buyers, not people just adding a 10th or 11th Bible to their stacks. Right, this is new. We're also seeing Generation Z, gen Z men returning to at least the Christian faith. This is a Christian phenomenon, but I'm probably sure it's happening in other places as well are returning to the Christian faith in significant numbers. This is happening in Great Britain, it's happening in the United States, it's happening in a variety, in a lot of Western people. I think what it tells us is that the modern project, the idea of modernity and simply trying to say we're all just material, we're just all a bag of chemicals, that's all we are, is, does not, has not produced satisfaction, hasn't produced meaning and purpose, and all of us are in pursuit of that.
Speaker 3:I think they're also finding out that science isn't the be all and end all of life either.
Speaker 2:Science doesn't answer all the questions and you know, actually, science, science is coming around to you know, scientists are having to begin to believe in more and more outrageous things to be able to deny God, because the moment you're talking about this and this is from Daudat's book, but the whole notion, if you get down to the Big bang, theory.
Speaker 3:All you have to do is said when you encounter a scientist, you just say, hey, what went bang? What? Where did it come from? Whatever it was that wouldn't bang. We can't have nothing go bang, nothing from nothing leaves nothing, right?
Speaker 5:yep.
Speaker 2:Rudy, any closing.
Speaker 4:We have about a minute yeah, it's interesting because and I sort of mentioned this in what I wrote to you guys it's kind of a fundamental paradox, because objects that are meant to connect believers, if you will, to the divine are, in a very real sense, also the things that create some of our deepest divisions, right?
Speaker 4:I mean when you think of the eucharist right, I mean this is, this is the thing that separates us from every other type of christian, if you will right. I mean there's a couple other things, but it's one of the most common.
Speaker 5:I do think, rudy. Think about what happened a number of years ago, when they started burning all the Korans and the sacred objects. You know what I mean.
Speaker 4:Yeah, or when they tried to draw Mohammed in France and that famous that guy was killed for it or when they started destroying all the Buddhas in, I think, india or somewhere well folks, we are getting 20 seconds from the end of the show so you have been listening to three, no four, wonderful men.
Speaker 7:Four wonderful men.
Speaker 3:Wait, why were you going to leave me out? No, just kidding.
Speaker 2:So this has been 1070 KNTH. You're listening to the Show of Faith. Please, during this week, keep us in your prayers. You know why? Because you are going to be in ours.