A Show of Faith
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A Show of Faith
Episode 170: Angels, Hanukkah, And Christmas
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Light sparks change long before it becomes a tradition. We start with Hanukkah’s roots—the Maccabean stand against forced worship, the rededication of the Temple, and the mystery of prepared oil burning beyond its limits—to ask how faith resists assimilation and keeps its flame. That historical grounding opens a richer conversation about angels: not greeting-card figures, but messengers who appear at turning points, from Joseph’s dreams to Mary’s annunciation and a sky filled with song over a field of shepherds.
We bring Jewish, Catholic, and Protestant perspectives to the table. In Judaism, malachim are workers sent on single missions, ascending and descending Jacob’s ladder to receive new assignments. Catholic teaching sees angels as immaterial intellects with will, each one unique, with guardian angels accompanying us as guides and advocates; feasts for Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael make this concrete in worship. Many Protestants affirm the reality of angels and the presence of spiritual warfare while avoiding prayers directed to them, emphasizing Scripture’s pattern of ministering spirits and the caution not to blur lines between Creator and creature.
Together we sort fact from folklore: angels do not become humans and humans do not become angels; cherubim aren’t chubby infants but fearsome guardians; and authentic angelic action points toward God, courage, and truth.
We also tackle pop culture, personal stories of providential “nudges,” and the practical question of discernment: does this voice lead to faith, protection, and love, or toward confusion and fear? By the end, Hanukkah’s light and the Nativity’s messengers converge on one invitation—be attentive to the ways God communicates, through scripture, conscience, community, and yes, sometimes through messengers we cannot fully explain.
If this conversation gave you something to ponder, follow the show, share it with a friend who loves history and mystery, and leave a quick review so more listeners can find us.
Opening Banter And Show Setup
SPEAKER_15There's something happening here. What it is ain't exactly clear.
unknownThere's a man with a gun over there.
SPEAKER_15Telling me I got to be where I think it's time we stop, children. What's that sound? Everybody look what's going down.
SPEAKER_13There's bad lines being drawn. Nobody's right. Everybody's wrong. Welcome to a show of faith on the M107 answer. Uh, where Professor Priest Millennium Rabbit discuss theology, philosophy, morality, and ethics, and everything else that interests. If you have any response to our topics or any comments regarding what we say, hey, we would love to hear from you. Email us at a show of faith1070 at gmail.com. Ashow of faith1070 at gmail.com. You can hit our shows again and again by listening pretty much everywhere podcasts I've ever heard, although I got to talk to Rudy about that. A princess mother Maria, a royal retired pastor of St. Cyril of Alexandria, the 10,000 block of Westheimer.
SPEAKER_08Excuse me, but you should have said a retired beloved pastor of St.
SPEAKER_13Cyril. I'll stick with what I wrote. David Capes is our professor, Protestant minister, and the director of academic programming for the Lanier Theological Library.
SPEAKER_17Hey, good to speak with you guys tonight.
SPEAKER_13Rudy Kong is our millennial systems engineer and has his master's degree in theology from University of St. Thomas. I am Stuart Federer, retired rabbi of Congregation Sha'ar Hashalon, the Clarick area of Houston, Texas. My mind went blank. Sorry, I apologize. Your name is Jeff Kelly. Jeffrey. Jeff Kelly, yes. Is our uh board operator tonight, and he's the one who makes it sound great. Even if I have a mind that goes blank and didn't remember his name, I apologize. Welcome to a show of faith, and tonight, David, you are the show director.
Host Introductions And Listener Info
SPEAKER_17I know, but you also have a holiday.
SPEAKER_13Yes, tonight's Hanukkah. Tonight is Hanukkah. Yes, you ready to sing?
SPEAKER_17No, I'm not ready to sing. I want you to sort of just give us a little explanation of the holiday.
Hanukkah History And Meaning
SPEAKER_13Let's see. 2170 years ago, give or take. Uh Antiochus, the Hellenized Syrian Emperor, uh decided to unify his emperor empire under basically worship of Zeus. Uh everybody said okay, except the Jews. He felt that that was open rebellion against him personally, so he started persecuting the Jews. And eventually the Jews started rebelling. And early in the revolt against uh Syria, he the Jews rededicated the temple to the one true God, and Feast of Han. There we go. Thank you. Miranda, you saved it. Uh the uh Jews dedicated the temple built by Solomon originally, destroyed by the Babylonians, rebuilt under Cyrus of Persia, back to the one true God, and rededicated it, and Hanukkah means the dedication. So that is a uh memorial of the historical events of the apocryphal books of Maccabees.
SPEAKER_17Yeah. Now when you say they're apocryphal books, that doesn't mean they didn't happen.
SPEAKER_13No, no, Apocrypha means uh Jewish history, but not in our Bible, not canonized.
SPEAKER_17Right, right. It is historical, but it's not material that ended up in the Greek.
SPEAKER_13Probably originally written in Greek, although there are extant Hebrew manuscripts, but probably not original. Yeah. Uh and of a time well after the destruction of the first temple. So not the right timing, not the right subject material, not the right language, so it was not in the canon. But it's our history.
SPEAKER_17It is your history, indeed. Well, I hope it is a good holiday. It's an eight-day holiday.
SPEAKER_13Yeah, it's an eight-day holiday commemorating the uh part of the story where they found one flask of oil that should have only lasted one day, and instead it last lasted eight days. So it's a celebration of the light, of the miracle of the special kind of oil. Well, yes, there's a not just any it's biblical. You can see this in the Bible where it talks about uh the prepared oil that's used in the temple. It's got to be uh you you can't have a holy light that flickers. And so it literally has to be homogenized, whipped, beaten, uh uh, you know, like eggs. Right, right. And it smooths it out, homogenizes the oil, and means that the light from the oil isn't gonna flicker. So it's prepared, it's purified. So it uh lasted eight days instead of one.
SPEAKER_17Ah, fantastic.
SPEAKER_13Yes, okay. Festival of light.
SPEAKER_17All right. And and we see that uh in and it's it's being celebrated around the world, I guess, by Jews and by the Jewish community, yes. Like in Sydney, Australia.
SPEAKER_13Defense against uh trying to make us pagans uh in our own land. So, yes, it it it's especially nowadays, a very important Jewish holiday.
SPEAKER_17All right, uh tonight we're gonna we've got a uh a subject that really is about Christmas in a way. Um but it's not completely about Christmas, but oh let me let me sort of introduce it this way. Uh there was a show on the other night, it was on ABC called The First Christmas. It was a show that was uh it was hosted by Kevin Costner and a good friend of mine was on the show. It was uh her name is Lynn Coeck, she's a New Testament scholar in Houston, she teaches at Houston Christian University, and she's an expert on a lot of things associated with New Testament. But a part of that retelling, it was about a two-hour show, was really done very fairly. I was I was pretty impressed, by the way, Amy C. It was done fairly, but I noticed that as they were dramatizing the story, there were a lot of references to angels in the the Christmas story, as we find in Matthew and as we find in Luke, both of those, what do you what are you smiling about?
SPEAKER_13I'm just smiling, I'm just listening.
SPEAKER_17I can tell that that grin. I've seen that grin before. Anyway, the story in Matthew and Luke tells us it's about an encounter that Joseph has in Matthew with the angel of the Lord in dreams, through dreams, directing him to marry go ahead and marry Mary. He had thought about divorcing her. Go ahead and marrying her. Name the child who is to be born Jesus Yeshua, because it's like close enough. It's close enough. Not really, but go ahead. Yeah, it's closer than when you say it.
The Oil Miracle And Temple Dedication
SPEAKER_13No, because I know how to pronounce the original name.
SPEAKER_17Yhoshua.
SPEAKER_13No.
SPEAKER_17That's not.
SPEAKER_13No, it's air first of all, where Jesus lived would have been probably Aramaic, it would have been his mother tongue. And the area, i it's kind of like the uh the why in the word hooray. It's there, but you don't really say hooraya. You don't really pronounce it that hard.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_13So it would be, and it's a uh long A sound under the yud, not yu, but yeah.
SPEAKER_17So did you come here tonight to to correct your Hebrew?
SPEAKER_13Yes.
SPEAKER_17Okay. So not to talk about angels.
SPEAKER_08So how do you pronounce it? But it was close. So how do you pronounce it?
SPEAKER_13It was the way he probably heard it was probably Yeshu.
SPEAKER_07Yeshu.
SPEAKER_13Because the ion on the end, the the last letter on the end would have been uh chopped off. It would have been not sounded by that that pronunciation of Aramegan. You can look this up, it's like on Wikipedia.
SPEAKER_17Yeah, yeah. I don't read Wikipedia.
SPEAKER_13Oh, yes.
SPEAKER_17So the in all the accounts. The angels have this very prominent place. In in Matthew, Joseph has this mysterious encounter with the angel of the Lord. Uh and in Luke's gospel, Mary has an encounter with the angel Gabriel, who appears to Mary and tells her that she will be a mother and that she will bear a child, a very special child. And then later in the story, angels appear to shepherds and announce the birth of Jesus. So angels are not a topic that we talk a whole lot about in modern culture.
SPEAKER_13It's it's it's mis it's mystery. It's uh mystery.
SPEAKER_17So what I thought we would do tonight is to try, not necessarily to unpack the Christmas story, just think about that, but but to talk about how angels are figured in the Bible. Are they real? Are they metaphor? Are they personal beings? Are they what kind of beings are they? The book of Hebrews said that they are ministering spirits.
SPEAKER_13Some are.
SPEAKER_17Some are. Some are. Ministering spirits, serving those, serving the faithful, basically, those who are destined to inherit eternal life. This is Hebrews 1, verse 14, something like that. So some angels are that. Not all of them are that. So let's start with Stuart.
SPEAKER_13Okay.
Transition To Christmas Narratives
SPEAKER_17Stuart, we're gonna start with you because you have your notes out and you're ready to go.
SPEAKER_13Yes.
SPEAKER_17You have your notes.
SPEAKER_13Yes.
SPEAKER_17All right, so let's talk about that. Don't look, David. What is what do Jews and Judaism say about angels?
SPEAKER_13In the Bible, it's pretty clear. Angels, uh, the word in Hebrew is Malach, uh, which is messenger. And it's derived from the root that we get the word for work. So, for example, in Exodus chapter 28 and 9, uh it says, Zakhorat Yom Hashabat Likad show, sheshi amim ta'vod ba'sita kol malach techa. So it's the last word. You will not do uh labor, work. And the word there is malacha, which is where we get malach, which is uh usually translated as messenger, but it you might call it worker, because these are entities that God created at creation that are messengers, workers for God. Now, uh let's see, okay. So the Hebrew Bible reports angels appeared to the patriarchs, to Moses, to Joshua, numerous other figures like Hagar, uh, Genesis 16, Lot, uh, Abraham, uh, up and down Jacob's ladder, which is interesting. Uh why up and down? Why not just, you know, stay on earth? Why do they go up and down on a Jacob's ladder? Jewish tradition holds that each angel comes down to earth with one task, and when they finish that task, they basically go back to the office and get reassigned. Okay, they go back to heaven and get reassigned, go back to God and get reassigned. And then they come back down again. So they're going up and they're coming down on Jacob's ladder.
SPEAKER_17This is this kind of constant connection between the two, right?
SPEAKER_13Yeah, uh what do you mean?
SPEAKER_17I mean between heaven and earth.
Angels In Matthew And Luke
SPEAKER_13Yes, yes. So heaven and when they come down, they've got a task. Come to meet, yes. God was in that place and I did not know it. Right. But uh so for example, uh uh Abraham is in the tent in the heat of the day, talking with God, looks up, lifts up his eyes, sees three men in the distance, excuses himself from God, goes to the three men, because they don't in the you know what look at religious artwork. Up until Mercury and uh uh Hermes, I think, portrayals in art of angels never had wings or halos. But because the influence of Greco-Roman art of uh of the angels having wings, then all of a sudden angels started having wings.
SPEAKER_17I don't I don't accept that.
SPEAKER_13Well you d you don't have to, look it up. All right, but any rate, so about the book of Isaiah. What? Isaiah different kind of different kind of angel though.
SPEAKER_17Different kind of angel, but it doesn't matter. Mercury and and and Hermes are much older than the artwork that we have. The artwork has been around.
SPEAKER_13Mercury and Hermes are older, are older figures, yeah. That's what I'm saying. So it influenced the art, and eventually, because of their influence, they started drawing them with uh halos and wings and stuff like that.
SPEAKER_17Did you have drawings, Jewish drawings of angels before that?
SPEAKER_13I believe. Yes.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_13But but they would they're angels, they're not real. They're not, you know.
SPEAKER_17We gotta go to a break. Oh, you're no fun.
SPEAKER_13All right, we'll come back in a y'all have to straighten this out.
SPEAKER_10Right.
SPEAKER_08Are we going to a break?
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SPEAKER_14Johnny Angel. Johnny H.
unknownYou're an angel to shape.
SPEAKER_07Johnny Angel. Johnny Angel.
SPEAKER_13Oh that's why Jeff chose that song. Not just because it's one of your favorite songs that you want to hear every week, but because it's Angel's singing.
SPEAKER_17You know, I would rather hear her sing than you chatting.
SPEAKER_13You're no fun. Give him the main microphone and he just turns into a Okay, shut up. Overseer.
SPEAKER_08You're disrespecting the song, sorry.
SPEAKER_15But I just wish I rather concentrate on Jesus. And I pray that somebody will make. And together we will sing lovely will be. And together we will see lovely will be.
SPEAKER_13Welcome back to a show of faith on AM107 the answer.
SPEAKER_17We're talking about angels tonight. And uh not just the Christmas story, but kind of the whole idea of angels. Are they real? Are they metaphors? Are they uh you know what is the what do Jews believe about angels?
SPEAKER_13David, it it it's in the Jewish community uh there's a lot of I guess you'd say modern secularization, intellectualization, and angels are part of Judaism, but we don't talk about them that much. It's it's more on the mystical, Kabbalistic side of Judaism. You know, um there's a song we sing every Friday night, uh, the text of which is I have it here. Uh it's Shalom Alechem, in case people may or may not know what I'm but it's peace be unto you, uh Angels of Service, Malach uh Share, uh Angels of the Most High who come from the King of the King of Kings, the Holy One, blessed be he. And it's a s every every Shemaud, every uh Friday night, we sing that song. So it it's in our text, it's in our but it's nothing I I don't know I don't I don't know that unless a person is more Eastern European uh Mizrahi, which is like Northern Africa, uh East Far East. Okay. Um I don't know that I don't know how seriously they would take it. Okay. It is very much into Kabbalah Jewish mysticism, and as we've discussed on the air, I really don't have a mystical mind. I really don't get Kabbalah that much. Yeah.
SPEAKER_17So well, there are a lot of Jews in the world who do. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Just like there are a lot of Christians who do it.
SPEAKER_13Who take it very seriously.
SPEAKER_17Now, Rudy, uh, we had a little microphone trouble earlier. Are you there with us tonight? There he is. I'm glad you're here. All right, so you're a young man. We got a few minutes here before the bottom of the hour where we have to go to another break. So tell us a little bit about what Catholics, and particularly young Catholics, are gonna be saying about thinking about angels these days.
Art, Wings, And Ancient Influences
SPEAKER_05Angels. I think Catholics angels are being kind of incorporeal beings, right? Which means pretty much that they don't have a material body. Um they possess an intellect and a will, but no material body. Now um from my perspective And the angels in themselves every every type of angel is essentially its own species, which means Gabriel, for example, the angel Gabriel that came to the annunciation, right? Um so there's different types of angels, right, that that are considered and and talk about that fulfill essentially God's work. And I I think from my perspective, and I think for what we're taught from an early age too, is that as Catholics we have um or people, right, as children of God apply just to Catholics, at least the way we understand it. Um but everybody has essentially a guardian angel. And this is an angel that is essentially applying to you, if you will. Almost like uh like uh maybe like a chaperone or um uh you know, somebody an angel that that is that is that is with you. And um there's a lot of interesting things about angels, there's a lot of uh mystical happenings with them, um even up until recently recently. I don't know if you guys have ever heard of um Saint Peel of the Infantine.
SPEAKER_12Say it again. Say it again.
SPEAKER_05Um he was uh Italian mystic and um uh he was he uh he's uh he died in nineteen fifty-eight, so he's a relatively uh modern mythic. He um he well had visible signs of pigmata and uh padre Yeah, yeah, Padre Pio. Yeah, heo, okay.
SPEAKER_13Pio or Theo?
SPEAKER_05Teo, P-I-O. Um so he would say, send me your guardian angel, right? And and so that he could he could have spiritual communication with them to other people. So uh the apparitions of of Fatima, of Lorbe, um there's there's uh testimonies of of these children um seeing angels right before the apparition of Mary. So it's an interesting it's an interesting interesting thing. I don't want to call it necessarily a phenomenon, but it's it's really um as much as they are I don't want to just say like an instrument of God, right? They are messengers, but the way I understand it, they're also something quite personal to us that are essentially advocated um with us to the divine divine creator. So I I personally I pray I don't want to say I I don't pray to my guardian angel, but I I ask that my guardian angel prayed with me to God to help protect me, to help guide me through the way, through the day, through through the things that are going on. So um yeah, it's a very it's a very personal um understanding it within Catholicism, within at least the way I I see it, and and I was kind of taught as a as a cradle Catholic about a particular angel that you have with you always.
SPEAKER_17And is that the guardian angel then?
SPEAKER_08We have to go to a break. We have to go to a break, and I will join the conversation right after that break. Because you know why? I am the guardian angel of time.
Music Break And Return
SPEAKER_13You are, but we have a minute.
SPEAKER_08Oh, we have a minute?
SPEAKER_17We do, since you're the guardian angel of time.
SPEAKER_08Well, he's just well I always thought because I always thought we could go early.
SPEAKER_13Well, just after that, after that explanation, Rudy, do you do you personally have uh or believe in angels?
SPEAKER_08Yeah, absolutely. Okay, absolutely.
SPEAKER_13All right.
SPEAKER_08Okay. Now can we go to a break?
SPEAKER_13Yes, now we now Jeff's uh nodded like this, so yes.
SPEAKER_08Okay, this is 1070. KNTH, the guardian angel, has spoken of the big time, and we'll be right back.
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Catholic View: Nature Of Angels
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SPEAKER_17I know. There are.
SPEAKER_13There are angels.
SPEAKER_17The word angel just simply means messenger. There are times that human beings serve in an angelic capacity. That is, they are messengers of God, right? Yes. Father Mario is, believe it or not, take a look at that face. He's an angel. He's a messenger of God.
SPEAKER_08I have believed that since I was a little boy. My mom used to look into my eyes and say, You're an angel.
SPEAKER_13David, you want to hear a great quotation about angels? There are angels, by the way. There are angels, by the way. They don't have wings and live in clouds. They wear nurses' uniforms and work hard to pay the rent on their houses. Some work for charities because they cannot look the other way. Some have four legs and bark. But whatever they look like, they all save lives. Sometimes you bump into them. Sometimes you marry them. And when they die, they aren't angels any longer, but they were. If you want to be an angel, you've got to do it when you're alive. Be good. Do good things. That's from a television show, and I can't think of the name of the uh actor. He's a very devout atheist, but he wrote this. He wrote that. And I guess it's brilliant. What? Ricky Gervais. Ricky, thank you.
SPEAKER_17Yes, I remember that.
SPEAKER_08You know, it's interesting. It's interesting that uh you said that sometimes some some Protestants don't believe in angels.
SPEAKER_17No, no. Guardian angels.
SPEAKER_08Guardian angels. Guardian angels. But you know they're script that's scriptural. Guardian angels are scriptural.
SPEAKER_17Um it could be.
SPEAKER_08No, no, no. Matthew 18, verse 10.
SPEAKER_17Yeah, yeah. Is that is that a general statement about that? I mean, what about it?
SPEAKER_08Well, here's the here's the statement. Go ahead and say it, yeah. Jesus says, See that you not do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven always look upon the face of my heavenly father.
SPEAKER_17Yeah.
SPEAKER_08So that's the basis of the guardian angel understanding in the in the Catholic tradition. Yeah.
SPEAKER_17So Catholics all believe in guardian angels?
SPEAKER_08Yes. Okay. Yes, we do.
SPEAKER_17Well, tell tell us a little bit about that.
SPEAKER_08Well, I don't know.
SPEAKER_17You don't know?
SPEAKER_08Well, you knew enough to know that. I knew enough to know the basis of of it.
SPEAKER_17Oh, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_08Um, and and that is not one of the areas that I am versed in. I believe.
SPEAKER_05There's a couple of other um passages where um uh in Matthew twenty-five, Father Martin, there's angels will accompany the Son of Man at his return.
SPEAKER_06Yes.
SPEAKER_05Um there's another uh verse in Matthew four where angels are ministering to Jesus after the temptation.
SPEAKER_08That's correct.
SPEAKER_05Um and then in Luke twenty two the angels strengthen Jesus in Gethsemane.
SPEAKER_08So plus also all of the all of the times that the angels are are uh mentioned in the book of Revelation, um there's tons of angels.
SPEAKER_17So lots of angel appearance.
SPEAKER_08Yes, that's correct.
SPEAKER_05So you know, and God and Peter is freed from prison in packs. That's right. So it's it's all over. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_08It's all over that. So and God can create whatever God wants. He can. Well that's a created entity. That's what the everybody says about what for our life outside of the universe. Exactly.
SPEAKER_17And and so the the the question, I guess the question is, um are our b uh beliefs similar in these matters or are they different? Or are they are they are they uh strong? Do they have to necessarily be strong? I mean, some do interpret the whole idea of angels as uh a way of describing God's nearness to his people. So they take it not necessarily literally, they read those texts metaphorically, figuratively so to say, well, well, these texts describe God being close to us, not necessarily that there's another species of uh of of creatures out there. But I don't see any reason why there shouldn't be, right? Exactly, because if God can create, and that's why not it's it's it's clear in all of our traditions that angels are not immortal beings, they are created beings, and that angels have a will, and that angels they may not have a body, like we would understand a body, what a physical body would be, but they would they can sometimes it seems materialize and show up and be seen and be heard, just like the risen Jesus is described after his crucifixion of being bodily present.
SPEAKER_08What well in the moment you said the moment you said you use a couple of words that just making an analogy. Oh because when you said when you said angels materialize, I went, ooh, because you're saying the word matter.
SPEAKER_13I don't think they matter?
SPEAKER_08No. They don't, they they are immaterial already. So they and then the other thing is to say that Jesus that they are like Jesus who can make himself present. Jesus had a body, he said, touch me.
SPEAKER_17Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_13But but in the book uh in the Torah where you have Bilam, okay, Balak the king has the for lack of a better term, prophet uh and has an angel get in the way of Belaam and then has the donkey speak, he's physical. He can be seen, he can be heard. So I have no idea. In Judaism, there's a and I think in Christianity too, there's a whole angelology.
SPEAKER_08Yes, there is. And obviously, when the angels spoke to Mary, um, you know, that in terms of the uh um annunciation, uh obviously Mary was able to hear. And so there's uh some way in which angels can communicate. Right. Um we just don't know.
SPEAKER_17When I say materialize, I don't mean they become material. Oh yeah, I understand.
SPEAKER_08I I just wanted the chance to be able to uh confront a biblical scholar. I got sloppy there.
SPEAKER_13Abraham was able to see them. So there's some physicality to them.
SPEAKER_17They're able to see, yeah. I mean, uh and you know, when we confess the Nicene Creed, we say that God is the maker of all things visible and invisible.
SPEAKER_09Right.
SPEAKER_17That's a typical thing that we say. That God has created visible things, but he's also created a whole universe invisible stuff. I mean, if the physicists are correct, most of what makes up the universe is completely invisible to us. We will never see it. We will never have an effect. It still has an effect on gravity and yeah, but we're talking about what is visible and what is not. And I would argue that angels have an effect with us.
SPEAKER_08I I you know I have no reason the Catholic Church teaches that there are angels. As a matter of fact, I think it's September. It's September. Maybe Rudy, you remember in September there's a feast for the guardian angels. A specific feast.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, there's uh we have uh we have a feast also for I think uh um uh uh the angel Michael, if I'm not mistaken. I think oh yeah, September 29th is the feast of Saint uh uh Michael Gabriel and Robin O. The Archangels, and then we have October 2nd, which is the memorial of the Guardian Angel.
SPEAKER_08That's right.
Do Angels Materialize Or Communicate?
SPEAKER_05So it's a also the mass, Father Mario, in the in the sanct in the Sanctus, uh, we always echo holy, holy, holy lord, God of the Mr.
SPEAKER_08That's that's correct. Yep. So I mean they're all they're all over. So and you know, I'm I'm very um in in terms of my Catholicity, uh I am very um how should I say affirmative of that um it is not for me to say I don't believe anything that the Catholic Church teaches to be true. I can I can always say I don't understand it. Me too. Um I don't I don't uh I I wish I could because see, in my opinion, all Catholic all Cathol all church teaching is supposed to be both nutritious and delicious for your faith. Okay? Yeah. It's interesting because see, to me, I I I see myself in terms of uh Catholic priest, I see myself as a chef. Uh if if you think about um the teaching, the raw teaching of the of the church, the raw dogma, it's it's basically like raw food. If you're going to preach it, you have to cook it. You have to cook it and make it accessible. You can have a teaching that is tremendously nutritious, but you made it horribly as a chef. You cooked it horribly, and therefore people when they taste something that is supposed to be nutritious, they hate it.
SPEAKER_13Like some of my sermons.
SPEAKER_17Well, but like liver.
SPEAKER_08But yeah. So but but you see, the the whole point is supposed to be that neutr that all teaching should be nutritious, but it should also, it's up to the responsibility of the preacher to make it delicious. Okay. So the angels it depends on it it depends on how uh they are proclaimed. I am all I'm saying is I believe, but I don't know how to cook it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_17What I find in the Christmas story, what I find in in the annunciation, in a sense, of the birth of Isaac, because we're told that three messengers of God come to Abraham at that particular time. And Sarah, Sarah's not too sure if she understands what's going on. It's a lot we don't understand, but there are there are these figures, these characters that we're told are like angels in a way, right? That that they they seem to have.
SPEAKER_13They seem like men.
SPEAKER_17They very often, they very often show up in in the garb of a man wearing his clothes.
SPEAKER_13One one tells them she's gonna be pregnant, one goes to Sodom, one goes to Gomorrah.
SPEAKER_16Yeah.
SPEAKER_13And we have to go to a break here in a minute, but David has not answered any angel questions.
SPEAKER_09Like I have to do.
SPEAKER_08David, David, I silence you right now. I silence you because we have to go to a break.
SPEAKER_17Okay, okay, all right.
SPEAKER_08We shall we shall listen to the protester when we come back. This is 1070 K N D H, and we'll be right back.
Feasts, Liturgy, And Angelology
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SPEAKER_14Johnny Hony Angel. You're an angel to shake.
SPEAKER_13Hey, two times the pleasure. Right, Mario? Yes. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_08Oh, I love you.
SPEAKER_13Welcome back to a show of faith on name 1070 answer.
SPEAKER_08And now we must hear from David.
SPEAKER_17Yes. We're talking about angels tonight, and we've heard from the rabbi. We've heard from the young Catholic. We've hold heard from Father Mario, who's not quite as young.
SPEAKER_13Yes, he's at heart. You got out of that very well.
SPEAKER_17Very young at heart. Yeah, I would say Protestants, uh the Protestant faith gets started around 1600, somewhere 1500, 1600. And they are responding to a lot of things that they feel like are gone too far in the Catholic Church. Martin Luther, John Calvin, and some of the other. And so there are there are some pullbacks among Protestants about some things like feast days for angels, prayers directed to angels. The idea that God protects and that angels can help protect, it might be considered a little different than saying, well, this angel is assigned to me, or that angel is assigned to you, so that there's a one-on-one correspondence with a guardian angel. So there are Protestants that that pull back upon that. I'm kind of on the fence about that. I'm not totally sure. But I understand the reason. I do think angels are real. I do think that they are spiritual beings, that they exist in a in a plane, in a in a dimension that I don't necessarily inhabit. But that they do have access to us and that we do have access to them. And that they have been and can be interpreters. Primarily in the past, they have been those who have announced something, announcing good news very often. Or in some cases announcing judgment. Or in some cases. But they're a part of a a spiritual dynamic to the to the world. Now I would even say, yes, I believe in fallen angels. I believe that some angels have, because of their own will, they have disobeyed God. I don't think angels are automatons that have been put up put in motion and and and they have no will of their own.
Fallen Angels And Spiritual Warfare
SPEAKER_13That's basically the Jewish view. Angels have no will of their own. They are directed by God, they do the God's will, but they don't have wills of their own. Yeah, I would argue that including the Satan. Yeah, I agree who was in a in heaven wandering around with the other angels, and then in Job has the conversation, you know, the argument with God.
SPEAKER_17Right, exactly. So I I do think that there are these fallen angels who and and that this this world that we occupy, that there is a spiritual aspect to it. There's a spiritual battle, there's spiritual war that goes on. Paul says we don't wrestle against flesh and blood, but we we wrestle against uh spiritual powers, principalities, uh spiritual wick wickedness in dark places. That there is a reality to that that we can that that we need not to shut our eyes to, and that it really is a real thing that's happening going on by it, it seems. Yeah, there is evil, human evil in the world. Yes, there is structural evil in the world. Yes, there is also spiritual powers and dynamics that are animating some of those structures. Like demonic evil or yeah, demonic, yeah. You could use the term demonic if you wanted to. You could use uh in the New Testament, you see unclean spirits, uh you hear uh you you read about uh demonic spirits. Yeah, exactly. So I think they're very real.
SPEAKER_08I think they're part. Would you say angels are the same thing as when we use the word spirits?
SPEAKER_17No, I I think that would be distinct. So do I necessarily I think they would be distinctly.
SPEAKER_08So wait a minute, so then wait a minute. Are we saying that there's a third type of existence?
SPEAKER_17I I don't know.
SPEAKER_08If God had created Because if you have angels and then you have human beings, and then you have spirits, what are we talking about?
SPEAKER_13I I would say that angels might be a kind of spirit if they follow what you're saying, that they are totally spiritual, non-corporeal. I don't know. So they would be a kind of spirit, I guess, maybe.
SPEAKER_17Yeah. I don't know. I'm not going to say that every lowercase s is necessarily uh uh a former person who's died and taken up a lot of the city.
SPEAKER_13Also, not a biblical thing. The the in the angels were created at creation.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_13Human spirits go back to God who gave it, whatever that means. But the idea of humans becoming angel upon death, yeah, that that's not really in the Bible that I know of anywhere.
SPEAKER_17Oh, but there are people that that hold to that.
SPEAKER_13There's also an interesting misconception I see in movies, TV all over the place, and that is a cherub. Yes. The cherub beam. Okay. They think of a baby angel that's fat and has wings, and a cherub.
SPEAKER_17No, not fat, well-fed. Well fed, yes, thank you.
SPEAKER_13Well, in heaven, you can get what you want to eat. But the word cherub comes from the word sword. So it's better to think of Conan the Barbarian, okay, uh Arnold Schwarzenegger wielding the great as a cherub than it is a f a well-fed angel with the wings and a halo. Yeah. That's more of what a cherub would be.
SPEAKER_17Right, that has given us those images. Not so much necessarily any kind of biblical reference or anything like that. No, but because the angels can be fearsome. In fact, the the thing that angels say the most, do not fear.
SPEAKER_13Right.
SPEAKER_17Whenever an angel shows up, people fear. And so that's why they say, Do not fear. Because they're afraid.
SPEAKER_13Right.
SPEAKER_17Right. So they they can be fearsome.
SPEAKER_13That's more New Testament, but well uh because most of the time when they show up, it it's uh hey, you're gonna get pregnant.
SPEAKER_17No. Most of the time.
SPEAKER_13No. In the in Tor in the five books of Moses.
SPEAKER_17Oh, in Moses.
SPEAKER_13Right.
SPEAKER_17Okay. Well, I'm not talking about the New Testament.
SPEAKER_13No, I that I know I'm talking about the Bible, not the Christian appendix to the Bible.
Cherubim, Fear, And Misconceptions
SPEAKER_17You know what fascinates me, we we talked about this a number of years ago. There were a lot of shows on in the 70s, no, not 70s, TV shows in the maybe the 90s and the 2000s about angels interacting with humans with human people. Do you remember those shows? I I don't I you we talked about them on.
SPEAKER_13Yeah, yeah, there's there's tons of those shows. Can you think of any titles? Because I'm not remembering.
SPEAKER_17Think about It's a Wonderful Life to start with.
SPEAKER_13Oh, yes.
SPEAKER_17Is it Clyde? Is that his name? I don't know. Um I don't remember.
SPEAKER_13Not Clyde, but something like that, yes.
SPEAKER_17Yeah. Yeah. But then but then there was there was a show about these these women. One was African American and the other was Oh, uh uh Michael Landon.
SPEAKER_13Uh yes, I know the show.
SPEAKER_17I was trying to think what the name of the show was. Okay, come on, millennial. Help us out here. Yes, Rudy, do you know any of this?
SPEAKER_07Touched by an angel.
SPEAKER_17Touched by an angel.
SPEAKER_13Oh, touched by it. Touched by an angel. Jeff touched by an angel. Thank you, Jeff.
SPEAKER_17He came through.
SPEAKER_05What's that movie with with Kevin Kaufner? Uh where he says that famous line, uh uh, if you build it, they will come.
SPEAKER_13Oh, sure. Um Field of Dreams.
SPEAKER_05Field of Dreams, yeah.
SPEAKER_08There was also one with uh Sixth Sense with uh Oh well, the Sixth Sense, yeah, Rudy, that's sixth sense. The sixth sense is the little kid can see dead people. Dead people.
SPEAKER_05I see dead people. Yeah. So culturally, I think to what you guys were discussing earlier, like there's been this this kind of like this kind of spiritual world that gets kind of thrown out right into kind of popular mainstream culture, right? Where there's there's kind of like this etho world where you can still sort of interact, but you can kind of not, or only sometimes. It's um it's weird. It's it's it's it's kind of weird portrayals. Um the Catholic Church does it it's pretty clear right on the on the teaching. I mean, it doesn't it it's always about angelic interventions always lead souls towards God, and that's kind of how you distinguish and discern it, right? So that's kind of something to keep in mind. Is it something that increases is increasing you in faith, is allowing you to have a a a greater connection with God? Um so those types of things are always important when we talk about because there's a lot of people I wanted to mention this real quick. I don't know if you guys are familiar who with uh this individual named Patrick Madrid. Um well he's a Catholic apologist. Yeah, so he tells this story. He was flying back from Mexico, and I don't know if you guys remember, I think in the 80s or 90s there was a famous plane crash from Mexico to uh to LA. But right the day before the plane was taken off, he gets this like feeling, and he he wrote a whole thing about it. He says, I gotta change my flight, you know? And so he changes his flight, and um that day he goes to the basilica of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Mexico City, and he goes and when he's in the basilica, the plane crashes. And so his family's all freaking out. So so I really do think that, and I believe that there are moments where God sends his messengers to to give us a little a little push, a little showing, a little you know, and and sometimes how connected we are to that to that voice properly ordered, then heck, I mean it could even save our lives.
Angels In Pop Culture And Discernment
SPEAKER_17Wow. I've heard stories like that, and you know, I it makes me makes me think that there are guardian angels, right? And I know Billy Graham wrote a book many years ago about angels where he did describe his own view uh about guardian angels and and the reality that that God has special angels assigned to each one of us to guide us, to protect us, to uh draw us closer to God.
SPEAKER_13I I like the quotation from Gervais about people can also act. Oh, absolutely.
SPEAKER_17Yeah, yeah. No doubt about that. Even Father Mario can can do good.
SPEAKER_08I I'm uh I would I would wonder though, I would wonder what happened to um do Judas's guardian angel and whether he got fired or not. Free will. I don't know. I'm that was a joke.
SPEAKER_17That was that was that was a really David, you devil you. I like the one about the parrot you told earlier.
SPEAKER_08The parrot, oh yeah, I'll say that quickly because we have to go. What is what sounds like a parrot and is orange? You don't Rudy, do you know?
SPEAKER_05Sounds like a parrot is orange.
SPEAKER_08Yeah.
SPEAKER_05No?
SPEAKER_07A carrot. Sounds like a parrot. Parrot, carrot. Sounds like a sounds like parrot? It's a carrot, yeah. I literally said it sounds like a parrot. So Margo, you're next. Am I next? You're next week. You're next. Okay, that sounds good.
SPEAKER_08I'm right before Christmas. I like it. I like it. Okay, are we all going to be here next week?
SPEAKER_05Happy Hanukkah. Thank you.
SPEAKER_08Okay, so we will be here next week. And I will be delving into some interesting subject. I have to pick it still. I haven't figured it out yet. And so thank you for listening. I haven't yet figured it out. I haven't figured it out. I haven't figured out much of anything yet. The more, the more I think theologically, the less I understand. Yeah. So the more understanding. Well, thank you for listening to us. Please, you have been listening to the show of faith where minister, priest, rabbi, and millennial talk about all kinds of stuff, and we're here every single week. So keep us in your prayers during this week because you are going to be in ours.
SPEAKER_09Find us at ample.com. Download our app to streamless 247 K N T H 8277 D E F M. Houston.