A Show of Faith
Millennial, Priest, Minister, and Rabbi walk into a radio station...
A Show of Faith
Episode 174: From Toleration To Respect: Building Honest Faith Conversations
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Real unity isn’t built on pretending we agree. It grows when we serve together and stay at the table long enough to name real differences with respect. We gather to ask harder questions about interfaith dialogue: What does honest respect look like beyond polite nods? When does listening give way to action? And how do we measure success without watering down our beliefs?
We begin with a simple picture: two seats at the same table. Side by side, we work on what every tradition urges—feeding the hungry, caring for widows, orphans, and strangers, building food pantries, and resourcing local charities. Across the table, we trade clarity for clichés, choosing to explain convictions instead of masking them. George Washington’s 1790 letter to Newport’s Jewish community sets the tone: a nation that gives bigotry no sanction and demands only good citizenship. That vision still challenges us to reject condescension and embrace equal dignity as the ground for strong disagreement.
From Scripture to story, we test our courage. Jonah balks at mercy for enemies, yet is sent anyway. Dumbledore tells us it takes even more bravery to stand up to friends. We make it concrete: correcting myths inside our own communities—about Catholics “worshiping saints,” about Protestants and the Reformation, or about Jews and Muslims—becomes the proof that interfaith learning has taken root. We also draw a firm boundary: toleration is a first rung on the ladder, not a destination. Some practices sit outside dialogue and demand resistance. The point is not to be vague; it’s to be virtuous, moving from patience and humility to principled action.
If you’re hungry for conversations that trade platitudes for purpose, you’ll find practical takeaways here: how to start side‑by‑side service in your city, how to pose questions that invite candor, and how to hold your convictions without turning them into weapons. Listen, share with a friend, and tell us where you’ve seen honest disagreement deepen real friendship. Subscribe, leave a review, and send us your thoughts so we can keep growing this space for courageous, compassionate dialogue.
Introductions & Light Banter
SPEAKER_12There's something happening here. But what it is ain't exactly clear. There's a man with a gun over there. Tellin' me I got to beware. I think it's time we stop. Children, what's that sound? Everybody look what's going down.
SPEAKER_03Oh, there we go. There we go.
SPEAKER_08Welcome to a show of faith, where professor, priest, millennial, and rabbi discuss theology, philosophy, morality, and ethics, and anything else of interest to us. If you have any response to our topics or any comments regarding what we say, we would love to hear from you. Email us at ashow of faith1070 at gmail.com. Ashow of Faith1070 at gmail.com. You can hear our shows again and again by listening pretty much everywhere podcasts are heard. Our priest is Father Mario Arroyo, retired pastor of St. Cyril of Alexandria in the 10,000 Block of Westheimer. Hello, hello. Our professor is David Capes, Protestant Minister, and Director of Academic Programming for the Lanier Theological Library. And great to have you. Rudy Kong is our millennial. He's a systems engineer, but has his master's degree in theology from the University of St. Thomas. Howdy, howdy. I am Stuart Federal, retired rabbi of Congregation Sha'ar Hushalo in the Clear Lake area of Houston, Texas. Crystal is our board operator, and she makes us sound fantastic.
SPEAKER_03Mucho bueno.
SPEAKER_08That too. Watch your language.
SPEAKER_03Okay, but before you start, what do you call? Okay, you ready, Rudy? And you ready, David?
SPEAKER_07Okay.
SPEAKER_03Okay, what do you call, what do you call ready? What do you call a woman who burns her bills?
SPEAKER_08I don't know, Mario. What do you call a woman who burns her bills? Burn a debt.
SPEAKER_07Burn a debt. Oh boy.
SPEAKER_08Burn a debt. Oh boy.
SPEAKER_05Oh Lord.
SPEAKER_08At any rate, before we were rudely interrupted.
SPEAKER_07Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Before earlier you introduced yourself as the retired rabbi. But you're not retired. Are you still retired?
SPEAKER_08I I well, yes, I'm retired, but I'm like a substitute rabbi, so to speak. I'm filling in because my congregation is presently looking for a rabbi.
SPEAKER_03He's a rent rabbi.
SPEAKER_08Like like the like the uh like the uh Godfather Part Three, they keep pulling me back.
SPEAKER_03I am a rent a priest and you're a rent a rabbi.
SPEAKER_08Yes, exactly. But I only go to one place. You have to go to what were we like six places this week?
SPEAKER_03This weekend was just brutal. Uh I had uh two masses on Saturday night in Texas City, so it took me an hour to get there. At least. And then I spent uh three hours there and an hour back. I got home when it was uh 10 o'clock, and then at 7 a.m. I had another mass. At 9 a.m. I had another mass. At 11 a.m. I had another mass, and then at 2 p.m. I had another mass, and I had to go and anoint somebody and to give communion to somebody who had a transplant. That's like six masses if I counted correctly. Yes, it is. Six mass. It's a the record for you. It's the most and it all just came together because people were sick. So anyway.
SPEAKER_07All right. It's it's a good thing you only work on the weekends, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_07That's true.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_07All right. Okay, all right. Let's let's get back to the real reason for the show.
SPEAKER_08Yes, aren't you all lucky? Tonight, I yes, I am the show director.
Setting The Theme: Interfaith Dialogue
SPEAKER_08I don't know if any of you, your church has participated, but this weekend was a United Nations program to promote interfaith dialogue in the world. Uh, in Houston, it was sponsored by the Interfaith Ministries for Greater Houston, img.org, I believe, could be.com. Uh, and it's called Welcome, it's called WOW, Weekend of Welcome, WOW. And it's a part of the 2026 United Nations World Interfaith Harmony Week, a night of unity, joy, and celebration. And I am about to tell you my sermon that last uh Friday night, because I think I covered in topics that I wanted to discuss tonight with all of you. So I said, Welcome to our Congregation Shar Shalom's World Interfaith Harmony Shabbat service. So let's talk about interfaith dialogue. When I think of dialogue, any dialogue, I think of a conversation between two people, and I think of how very often I have gone to a restaurant and seen a couple, perhaps married, perhaps just dating, and watched them dialogue with each other. More importantly, I have taken note of how they are seated at their table while they are dialoguing. I have seen couples of every age seated at their table, seated across from each other or seated next to each other, and I think that's a great image for how interfaith dialogue should work. We can dialogue across from each other, and we can dialogue while seated next to each other. What do I mean by that? I think there are really two reasons why there is interfaith dialogue, why there needs to be interfaith dialogue. The first reason is to sit next to each other, so to speak, and work together on mutually beneficial programs to do what each of our faiths calls upon us to do, to help the poor, the orphan, the widow, and the stranger, as the Tanakh, the Bible, the Hebrew scriptures, demands from us, because in the ancient world, these four groups were the most powerless: the poor, the orphan, the widow, and the stranger. And this reason for interfaith dialogue is the strongest. These programs are the most successful when it is expressed in the form of soup kitchens, food pantries, clothing drives, or simply campaigns for donations to give, in turn, to a charity. We can come together, work together to help those of any religion or belief system or philosophy or faith who needs the help that we can provide and provide better because we work on these needs together. The other reason for interfaith dialogue is to sit across from each other, so to speak, and work together for understanding, not for toleration. True knowledge of the other, to understand and respect each other. Roughly 236 years ago, in 1790, President George Washington said it best. He was writing in response to a letter he received from the Jewish community of Newport, Rhode Island. The Jewish presence in Newport, Rhode Island dated to the arrival of 15 Sephardic Jewish families in 1658, 132 years before Washington had responded to the much larger Newport, Rhode Island community. They had written to him to praise him and to extol the ideology behind the newly established Democratic Republic of the United States of America. The war of independence against England only ended seven years beforehand. I believe the hidden question to Washington from these Jews was: how are we going to fare in this new country with its new ideas? And I believe Washington
Side‑By‑Side Service: Helping The Vulnerable
SPEAKER_08picked up on this because here is a part at least of his response. The citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for having given to mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy, a policy worthy of imitation. All possess alike a liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship. It is now no more that toleration is spoken of as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily the government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens in giving it on all occasions their effectual support. May the children of the stock of Abraham who dwell in this land continue to merit and enjoy the good will of the other inhabitants, while every one shall sit in safety under his own vine and under his fig tree, and there shall be none to make him afraid. May the Father of all mercy scatter light and not darkness in our paths, and make us all in our several vocations useful here, and in his own due time and way everlastingly happy. Washington's response, recognizing, I believe, their fear, is telling them, respect our laws, be a part of our culture, and you will be okay. Each of our faiths do not engage in interfaith dialogue in order to be tolerated, but rather to be understood and respected in spite of our differences. And this, I believe, is where interfaith dialogue as it is practiced today fails. So much of interfaith dialogue, when it is practiced when facing each other to understand each other, is rather spent on talking about where we are the same. It is as if there's a fear of being different or expressing differences. It is as if we can only get along dialogue with each other if we see ourselves as the same. We do not agree with each other on so many areas. And so what? And yes, discussing where we differ may make us uncomfortable as well. That is the price we pay to come to a true understanding of each other. The challenge to interfaith dialogue is can we truly get to know each other as individuals, yes, but also as representatives of our faiths, not just how we are alike, but also where we disagree and still respect each other, maybe even still like each other, and here's the hard part, despite being uncomfortable with our differences, support each other in each other's endeavors. You see, here's the problem. If we only discuss where we are alike, then I am not really getting to know you, I am only getting to know the me that is also found in you.
Across The Table: Seeking Respect Over Toleration
SPEAKER_08If what I learned from our very limited dialogue is only the me that is also found in you, what I am learning to respect and to understand, again, is the me that is also found in you. That's not you. And that's not me if I'm limited in the same way. There are differences between us, and learning about the differences between us or disagreements will make us uncomfortable. But that is where true interfaith dialogue takes place because that's where true understanding takes place. To go back to the image of the couple sitting at a table in a restaurant, if they only discuss their similarities, all that they have in common, and never discuss their differences, what kind of marriage would that be? Not a very solid one, I assure you. And that is the same with interfaith dialogue. True dialogue takes place when I am totally free to be me and you are totally free to be you, while respecting each other and acting with that respect when we are confronted with the differences that separate us. And I just don't see it in the interfaith dialogue with which I have been active since I was ordained hundreds of years ago in 1982. And this leads me to my final point that I want to make tonight. How will we know that interfaith dialogue is working? How will we know that we are getting this interfaith dialogue stuff right? Quite simply, here is how. And for this, I turn to the Bible, the book of Jonah, and I turn to the first book of Harry Potter, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. Why was the book of Jonah written? Because the people of Nineveh were hated by the Israelites, because that was the capital city of the Assyrians, who went to battle against them rather often and who eventually defeated and destroyed the northern kingdom, leading to the supposed ten lost tribes of Israel. And yet, God in the Hebrew scriptures, written for the Hebrews, the Israelites, the Jews, is shown to also care about Israel's enemies and even sends Jonah to prophesy to them. Jonah is a creep. He wants them destroyed for their evil ways and they how they treated others, and yet he is forced to go to them and
Washington’s Letter And True Liberty
SPEAKER_08save them from themselves to defend and help those with whom he disagrees so deeply. And what of the first book of Harry Potter? Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone? How does it end? Neville Longbottom earned points for the House of Gryffindor, winning for their house the House Cup. Why does Neville Longbottom get the points that win the House Cup? Because, in the words of Dumbledore, it takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to your enemies, but a great deal more to stand up to your friends. And that is how you will know if any interfaith dialogue in which you take part has been successful. If and when you stand up to your friends, your co-religionists, to correct them, to admonish them when they say something against those who don't believe, as you both do. It is when a Protestant hears a fellow Protestant say, I don't know. For example, those Catholics, they worship their saints, and their fellow Protestant corrects them and says, Wait, don't you believe in heaven? Of course. Well, if you believe those that you respect are in heaven, then in the same way that you can ask those you respect to pray for you while they're alive, why can't you ask them to pray for you from their eternal abode in heaven? It is when a Catholic hears a fellow Catholic say, those Protestants, they created a new church where they rebelled against Roman Catholicism. And the Catholic knows enough from having been involved in interfaith dialogue and corrects them by saying, wait a minute, then why is it called the Reformation? It was reforming the church, not trying to create a new one. It is when a Jew hears another Jew say something about Islam, or a Muslim say something about the Jews, or when a Buddhist hears a fellow Buddhist say something about Hinduism or a Hindu or vice versa. How do you know when the interfaith dialogue of which you have been a part is working? Whenever you hear your co-religionists say something about another faith or another person in another faith, and you know enough from your involvement in interfaith dialogue to correct them, and then you correct them. Like the lesson of Jonah, like Neville Longbottom in the first book of Harry Potter, you stand up to your friends and you correct them. This world will only be made better through understanding of our differences, accepting the other in spite of our differences, and that can only come from talking to each other, and I believe that is why we must participate in true interfaith dialogue. God's promise is there will come a day when the world will be truly at peace, but until that day, interfaith dialogue, true interfaith dialogue, is a necessity, not for toleration, but for our mutual benefits, our survival, for respect and for understanding, and to create true friendship and to help each other and all others. May all our efforts to that end bring us closer to one another, so that we will grow in spirit and we will grow in true fellowship, and we will grow to be united with each other and with God, however we each may perceive God, and let us say Amen. It's now time to go to a break.
SPEAKER_03It is 10 30. I mean 1040, isn't it? 740.
SPEAKER_08It's 820.
SPEAKER_03No.
SPEAKER_08No, we are uh 1070. We're 10 years. 1070 and boy, you're exhausted.
SPEAKER_03I'm exhausted. This is 1070 KNTH, and we'll be right back.
SPEAKER_08Said that a million times.
SPEAKER_11Alex Marlowe can't find many moderates. The Virginia Senate just reported that they passed a vote in the out of committee 9 to 5. Legislation aimed toward banning firearms with Democrats referred to as an assault firearm. Your definition now of assault firearm is basic stuff. And that's in a moderate part of the country. So just remember, other than John Fetterman, as far as I can tell, there are no moderate Democrats. They don't exist.
SPEAKER_04The Alex Marlowe Show. Weekdays at 11, right before Scott Jennings at noon on AM 1070 and FM 1033. The answer. That a lot of Protestants not all a lot of Protestants.
SPEAKER_15You're an angel to shape. Johnny Angel. How I love him. How I tingle and he passes by every time he says hello.
SPEAKER_08Welcome back to a show of faith on AM10 Savory the Answer. So, gentlemen, any responses to what I said?
SPEAKER_03David, you
Embracing Difference Without Fear
SPEAKER_03go first. Thank you.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, I I really enjoyed reading it earlier today, and I enjoyed hearing you in a way deliver it uh during our our time together. Well, thank you. I think it's evident to me that you have learned a great deal over our 30 years. Oh, absolutely. No, seriously, David. Yeah, you've learned a great deal about uh Protestantism and Catholicism and Islam and other religions as well. And I I think that's been the point of it, and you have you've spent a lot of time uh doing this, and so I just I admire uh the fact that you probably have done exactly what Neville Longbottom did, which is going to stand up to other Jews who've uh who've uh gotten uh Christianity wrong elements of Christianity.
SPEAKER_05Yes, I have.
SPEAKER_07I think that's that's great. Um I'm I'm a little concerned you call Jonah a Crete, but um other than that, uh you called Jonah a Crete.
SPEAKER_08Oh a creep? Well, but he was not the nice guy. Everybody else did what they were supposed to do, but Jonah didn't want to do it. He ran.
SPEAKER_07No, you you're exactly right. I've never heard it put quite that way. Jonah clearly is put Jonah clearly is not the a prophet that is to be emulated. Thank you. He's a he's he's he's a prophet that is to be uh uh demonstrated that this is not the way uh of God. This is not the mercy. That was my point. This is this is the love of God, you know. So I thought it was I thought it was great, and and you and I have had many many of these conversations over the years. I don't think uh toleration, which is the lowest common denominator, is the thing that we should be going for. Um toleration is is the least like sort of uh aiming forever just to sort of barely get along with your life or your you d you don't want to do that or your your friends. You really want to be a part of their life and sharing life, and that's uh that's a much higher higher example in a much more.
SPEAKER_08David, don't you think toleration is condescending? A person tolerates the mosquito or the fly. I think it's a I think it indicates a condescension there.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, I I think it it demonstrates that one group feels itself superior and and greater than and uh we're we're going to tolerate you. You know, we are the the upper classes. We we have the power to be able to upper, you know, to to tolerate you. Um and we're just we're just gonna show you that we're better people. I I that that that it's a troubling concept to me the way I think it is developed here in the 21st century.
SPEAKER_08Yeah. In in in in any particular way, or just the idea of toleration being like its own value.
SPEAKER_07Well, I think I think the I think the issue is that you mentioned it, I think, or or maybe Washington who mentioned it in his favor. The group that seems to be the one in power
Jonah, Neville Longbottom, And Moral Courage
SPEAKER_07is the one with the power collation. Because if you're if you're at the bottom, if you're if you're the poor of the way and the outfit and you're you're just thinking. And if the other if the people above you in the social ladder that have the act of toleration seems as if they're just putting up with you, you know what I mean? Yes. I'm just gonna I have the power to put up with you, right? Um, and and and if you you don't think about that.
SPEAKER_08You've only been putting up with me for 30 years, David.
SPEAKER_07I know, and I've loved every minute of it.
SPEAKER_08But uh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. David, do you remember 30 years ago? Or more actually, but thirty years ago, when you and I started talking about this radio show, we said from the beginning to zealous. Jealously advocate for your faith to disagree. Exactly right. You remember that? We talked about that at the very, very beginning.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, and I think that's that's a much better example of what uh religious interface dialogue is all about.
SPEAKER_05Right.
SPEAKER_07It's not about just, well, let's just talk about how we're the same and how it really doesn't matter at the end of the day whether you believe this or that. It doesn't matter because none of that's really important. You and I and other people of faith uh believe that what we hold to be true and dear is very important, is extremely important. Absolutely. And and a part of the challenge of interfaith dialogue is to be faithful. For me as a Christian, to be faithful to Christ in my interactions. Yeah, but a lot of is extremely important.
SPEAKER_08David, a lot of interfaith dialogue because there are Jews present, the Christian will feel compelled to self-censor. Because there are Christians present, the Jew will feel compelled to self-censor. Because there are Jews and Christians present, the Muslim will feel compelled to self-censor. You can't that's not dialogue.
SPEAKER_03Okay, but uh what I'd like to then ask give me another word for Well, for example. For what word? For toleration. Oh. Because if toleration if we agree to disagree, okay?
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03We agree to disagree. What what do you call that? Uh uh w I I I mean, it's not I don't want to turn religion into a kind of uh, well, whatever is true, you know, everyone. Yeah, what's true for you is fine for you. No, that's that's not dialogue. But no, and and but what's the attitude that two people have when they agree to disagree about something they really care about and they respect one another? What's a to what's a word?
SPEAKER_08I don't know of a word. And I'm trying to think of a synonym for toleration. I can't even do that.
SPEAKER_07Well why why don't you just say respect? I mean, why don't we just say although I I I disagree with you, Stuart?
SPEAKER_08Yes, I know, but you're wrong. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_07I disagree with you on on number of matters. Absolutely. But but I still respect you, I love you, I care about you. I mean, what about if if you if you if you need a term, what about love of enemies, what Jesus told us, you know, which is really a unique thing in the world. Yeah, but we're not really enemies, David. No, no, I'm just saying if if if you regard another person as an enemy in in a faith, let's say, that these people are enemies, if you regard that, then seeking to love the enemy is the place where it all begins. And I think it ends in a place of of friendship, hopefully, in respect. Where we we we know each other and we know each other, we care about each other, and yeah, I I I don't know, I think respect is better than um not dialogue, dialogue's fine.
SPEAKER_08Mutual respect, maybe mutual respect toler toleration, toleration, yeah. David, we have to go to a break, but when we come back, I'd really like you to talk about your book that talks about this, about the interfaith dialogue.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, yeah. I I will I I don't want to I don't want to br beat that to death, but yeah, I'll be glad to talk about it.
SPEAKER_03This is 1070 K and TH and we'll be right back. AM 1070, the answer.
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SPEAKER_16ICE is not going about this in random or uncoordinated ways. They are truly going after the criminals that have the maintenance of the criminals that are there. That's all ICE is doing. They're just trying to enforce the law as it's currently written. If you have a problem with the law, elect a different Congress, write a different law, and change the law.
SPEAKER_07I think, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think a good bit of you and Mario both ended up in that show. I didn't know Rudy at the time, but uh uh it it it it came
Reactions: Beyond “Tolerance” To Mutual Respect
SPEAKER_07about in that book. And it it really starts with the idea of God has called us to love our neighbors, and our neighbors are not not always of the same faith that we are. And so I think interfaith dialogue, even if you don't say, well, love of enemies, but love of neighbor is where it begins. And this is the teaching of Jesus, the teaching of Torah. I mean, it was a part of uh Leviticus 19. And and what we I think of the book, what I try to say, we need to be honest about why what our convictions are. We don't need to, what Stuart said earlier was to self-censor, you know, and to and to keep ourselves uh quiet in a sense in the corner. We we need to be uh bold, we need to have people who truly believe and don't and don't believe that everything is pretty much the same. And part of what the the the whole idea of the book is is subtitled is sometimes it's okay to listen. You know, there are times that it's not okay to listen, and probably we don't need to hear when people are spouting uh hatred and vile kinds of things, profanity. We we don't need to listen to that. But when people are are truly speaking about themselves and their lives and what they think and their experience, uh I try to advocate in there that we should do what the book of James says, which which would be quick to listen, slow to speak. And that was a very important kind of kind of idea in there, and that we ultimately I think the the book takes us to the idea of peacemaking, and the idea that we are to be peacemakers in the world as followers of Jesus, and that's a very high priority, it makes it tend to the Beatitudes of the Sermon on the Mount, which I take to be a crucial point of Jesus' teaching. So, anyway, yeah, it's called slow to judge. Sometimes it's okay to listen. It's still available out there. I I saw somebody with it not too long ago. And uh I I I I guess it's on Kindle, but I don't know. You know, I don't have it on Kindle.
SPEAKER_08It's on Kindle, it's on paperback, and it's on Amazon.com.
SPEAKER_07Oh, it is, okay, cool. Yeah, I'm looking right at it. Yeah, good. Yeah, I I figured it would be on Kindle, but I had not seen it on there, so I was afraid to say it was. So I love to get people's response to it. It's it's a short book, shortest book I've ever written. It's about 120, 30 pages, something like that. But I think it was I was trying to make a contribution, and I I learned so much from you guys that I was uh I was writing out of that and from that, um, you know, at the at the request of the publisher about a book like that.
SPEAKER_08So all right. Thank you, David. Again and again and again. It's by David Capes, slow to judge. Sometimes it's okay to listen. Rudy. So, Rudy, any response to my sermon or what I said or what we've been talking about?
SPEAKER_06I I think the reality is that I think you're right, Rabbi. I think and and sometimes we fall into um uh this notion of agreement, but I don't think it's it's because we we aren't sure about our differences, but I think it's because our faiths, as different as they are, lend to a lot of similarities in the actual application of kind of sociocultural dynamics, if that makes any sense. No, it does. Right? And I think that's yeah, so I think that's where we find a lot of overlap, and I think that's where we find a lot of, but I but I think you're right. It's it's it's important to to realize these things because it's it and I think of as uh maybe like as a partner or or a wife, I mean as as much as as you might, you know, and I think of my wife as much as I think, you know, she's she's a good, or at least she thinks of me, let me talk bad about myself. Um you know, I have my faults and I have my quirks and I have my character and I have my things. And those things are also part of the things that make me maybe disagreeable, right? Not disagreeable all the time. So I think it's and that's I'm not saying that one one is wrong or one is right, um, but it it makes part of our character, it makes part of our inheritance, if you will, of how we were brought up or who our parents were. And going back to Washington's better, I think it's curious because you know, it and and it's something that we talk about, and Father Marlowe says this all the time, it's something that the founding fathers inherently knew that we are all created in the same image and likeness of God. Yes, right? And with this belief, right, then he was able to to kind of format this letter. And this is long ago, right? This is um what 200 and 230 years ago, right? 236 years ago, but it's it's it's crucial that that they kind of were how would I say, foresighted, if you will, in in this understanding
Self‑Censorship Versus Honest Convictions
SPEAKER_06of that the reality is that the world's not that simple, and that there are a lot of different religions and beliefs and systems, and somehow we need to think of each other in a way that doesn't put each other at each other's throats.
SPEAKER_08Right.
SPEAKER_06Right? Right.
SPEAKER_08We're supposed to see the face of God on the other.
SPEAKER_06Exactly. And you know what, Rao, I could sit here and and be screaming at the top of my lungs that I disagree with you and and and and with the. No, but rude, that's okay, because I disagree with you too. Yeah, and and believe it or not, there's there's things that I disagree with with with Father Martin. Even within Catholicism, there's a lot of uh uh there's a lot of spectrum, if you will, right? We have a left and a right, the same way with Judaism, the same way with Protestant. So even within our own sort of uh faith structures, there's a lot of uh disagreement, if you will. So it's um I think it's a beautiful thing, and it says a lot about an individual that's able to sit down, but I think what we find is that a lot of pay a lot of people don't have the patience to listen, and I think it starts with humility, and it's it's one of those things that when I recognize that somebody else is talking to me, I sit down and and I listen. And even with the show, and I kind of second what what David was saying, um, I've learned a ton, and mostly just by listening. And I think that's uh in a real sense a lost art for today. It's it's just something that we don't in the busy lives and the noise that we have today, it's it's it's lost, and it's something that um uh that we were talking about and and let me just finish with this that we were talking about uh was it last week, Father, about admiration.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Um and and it's something that we've lost this kind of this notion to admire. And and there's things about Judaism that I admire, there's things about Protestantism that I admire, right? I may not agree with it all, but I still find space uh that I find growth in, right? So um I feel like I'm talking too much. No, no, not at all. No, no, no, not at all.
SPEAKER_08Definitely not at all.
SPEAKER_06So I don't know. I I just I find that that charity, um you know, it's it's not toleration, but I think it's it's acceptance of the divine truth that we all share an equal dignity. And I think it's not something that it's not, you know, I don't tolerate God the same way I don't tolerate you, Rabbi. Like I love I love each and every person I can, even my enemies, you know, and and living that living that is harder than than it could, you know, that than it seems sometimes, especially when we see so much evil and destruction and hate. Um but peace bringers is is what we're called to be, right? So Okay, now I'm done.
SPEAKER_08About about, I don't know, f 30, 40, 50 years ago, even, there almost seemed to be a war in our culture in the United States against differences. Where every single thing was about we're alike, we're the same. And it I believe it created a false idea of each other as as we've talked about. But now it almost seems like the opposite end of the pendulum swing where we're we're talking about uh identity politics and everything's by identity, and uh and it almost seems to accent our differences because it's the opposite side of the swing of the pendulum, it seems like it also goes to keeping us separate from each other. Just like too much we're all alike makes us separate from each other because we can't be ourselves.
SPEAKER_07I agree. You know, I agree with our college the the college and university setting used to be a place where there would be a lot of listening going on, where you'd bring in these experts who would speak from different perspectives. But now it's gotten to where it's very difficult to get people unless they are speaking the sort of same language from the same perspective, they're um they're not really tolerated. They're they're shouted down, they're they're uh boycotted,
David’s Book: Slow To Judge
SPEAKER_07they're canceled, they're all those kind of things. And and it in in some ways it's gotten violent in in some places too, as well, as we've all seen. But I I do think that's a huge loss for the university to have gone from this idea where well these is the place you come and listen, you engage these ideas, you critically think about them, you agree, you disagree, you you come up with reasons.
SPEAKER_08You're right, you challenge each other like we do on this show. We challenge each other, we we talk it out.
SPEAKER_07Well, I mean, you just don't say we just don't say basically, I don't like what you said. We provide a reason why we are disagreeing with you, right? We don't just say, Well, I don't like what you said. Um Well, we may not like it, but that's not the point. The point is to provide a reason for what is inside of you in terms of your faith. I think that's the healthiest way to go.
SPEAKER_08And if and and talking it out will make us feel uncomfortable. We'll hear something with which we disagree and we will feel a lot you we'll feel uncomfortable about it, but you talk it out and you work it out and you understand each other, and you you may never agree. You may never agree, but you still talk it out and lose that that is that a word, uncomfortableness. Yeah. So I I think that is another discomfort. Say it again, Rudy. Discomfort. Discomfort discomfort. We're just we yes, exactly. But I think that's a price you pay in order to really get to know each other.
SPEAKER_07It brings me discomfort. It's time to know that that that Father Mario is getting ready to call us all to a break.
SPEAKER_08He's sitting there chopping at the bit. Yeah, okay. This is 1070 K and D H and we'll be right back.
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SPEAKER_03Okay, this is uh I I want to get in here because I am not yet, and I don't think I will be, comf comfortable with not using the word toleration. Why? Well, because totally or just No, I I want to use I think the word toleration has a place. I think what we're talking about is when you get when you're talking, especially about inter-religious dialogue, okay? I think we're talking about religions that have at their core a mutual respect, a mutual uh uh uh respect for other for the other for the other. Okay. But toleration, we're talking about I I I said this to to rabbi during the break. To me, toleration is the bottom step on the ladder of religious l dialogue.
SPEAKER_08As you move up, it's as you move up.
SPEAKER_03Oh yeah. And you have to have toleration. You do uh to some degree, and there there's some things that you may not tolerate and you cannot tolerate. Um you know, for example, uh when when uh religions uh came into uh I mean non Christian before Christianity, when you have cultures that had religions that that uh it practiced human sacrifice, right, right. You know, you can't people People can't go into that place and say, well, uh, we need to have interreligious dialogue. Uh because those are things that you become the sacrifice that kill you. And because that's right. You cannot tolerate those kinds of things. So there are moments- there are things in religions that may not be even tolerated. And then there is the first rung where you can tolerate something but really hate it.
SPEAKER_08But you won't be happy, right.
SPEAKER_03But you won't be happy.
SPEAKER_08So I don't want to kind of enter into a la land in which we I see what you mean now.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Because because it's not it's not you know, for example, a religion that uh that that uh promises that tolerates uh slavery. You can't tolerate that.
SPEAKER_08Uh or uh or throwing the throwing yourself on the funeral pyre of your husband because that's the culture that you live in.
SPEAKER_03And to me, it sounded a lot like uh, you know, in the Declaration of Independence, the mistake that was made in the Declaration of Independence, which is we hold these truths to be self-evident. They're not self-evident.
SPEAKER_08No, to a lot of religions that's true.
SPEAKER_03They are not.
SPEAKER_08To a lot of cultures that's true.
SPEAKER_03That is true. So you cannot have a dialogue. You may need to stop what they are doing with force. That's why, you know, I love my understanding that I got from uh uh I can't remember the theologian's name. But it says violence when when justified is not an option, but a sad duty. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_08But it becomes a real duty, though it's sad, absolutely.
SPEAKER_03You cannot tolerate, for example, we could not tolerate the caste system in in Hinduism.
SPEAKER_08Right. Or or in India, when Britain took it over, they stopped women from killing themselves because their husbands
Patience, Humility, And The Lost Art Of Listening
SPEAKER_08died.
SPEAKER_03That's right. You cannot throw themselves on the funeral pyre. So there are some things in human culture that are not open to dialogue.
SPEAKER_08So so in order to have the dialogue, you might have to start with how we're alike so that you can move past that. I think so. To where okay.
SPEAKER_03Now you granted, you don't go in saying, you know, your culture is horrible and we're gonna kill you. Right. You start by saying, you know, we can't allow you to do that. For example, uh there it this this I did read in uh it in a history book that the first time that um the what was the Spaniard's name that went into the Aztecs? Um I can't remember his name. Do you remember Rudy? The guy who conquered the Aztecs?
SPEAKER_06Cortes? Cortes, Cortes, right?
SPEAKER_03Cortes Cortes was received by the Aztecs, he didn't go in immediately to do away with them, but the Aztecs presented him with pride their human sacrifices. Okay? Uh so it was a matter of pride. They were willing to share what they were doing. Right. And so I don't know how he dealt with that, but he couldn't very well just sit down and say, Yeah, by the way, you're wrong. Yeah, but so I guess that's what that's where I I want to make sure that we understand that religious dialogue is good, and we've what we've been saying is correct, and we must listen, but to when when when there are some basics that are respected, uh and that we may not and that are in common. That's right. We may not be able to do that with all faith elements of all religions. Terrorism cannot do that. Absolutely. So I don't know what you guys think of that, but I agree.
SPEAKER_07And in fact, that's why I I subtitle that book, Sometimes It's Okay to Listen. Uh it it there are times that it's not okay to listen. There's there are times that you you have to act and you have to stop something that is completely uh unjust, uh a violation. It's it's not just uh it it is a uh it is a crime against humanity, if you will. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But you know it has to be stopped. But you know, David, here's the problem. The problem is that in the ancient world, before Judaism and Christianity, uh human sacrifice was not considered a crime against humanity. No, it was common. A common uh human sacrifice was considered religious and a good thing to do.
SPEAKER_08And so the whole idea of Baal worship was based on the killing of children.
SPEAKER_03That's right. And crimes against humanity is a Jewish Christian idea.
SPEAKER_07We can't we can't, but but that that's where we're living now. I mean, yes. I mean, when you look back at the Aztecs, when you look back at uh Roman and pre-Roman religions and stuff, yeah. Those those kinds of things were real and they were were those categories that we use today by which we make just decisions have been set up by Judaism and Christianity. That's right. And and and and and they fill the world, thank goodness, because we don't have to deal with as much slavery as we once did. We don't have to deal with as much sacrifice as we once did.
SPEAKER_03But but remember, I want you guys to remember that the whole idea of relativism says that's your truth.
SPEAKER_08Right.
SPEAKER_03That's not my truth.
SPEAKER_08And you can have your truth, but I have my truth. That's right. Who died and mine's just as good as your truth.
SPEAKER_03Who died and left you in charge? Right.
SPEAKER_08Right.
SPEAKER_03You know, so i it it will come down to a uh I don't know.
SPEAKER_08I don't know what the answer is. It comes down to a point where you're going to object. You're going to be pushed.
SPEAKER_03When push comes to shove, you're going to have to say Well, that's why the whole idea of saying violence when justified. When is violence justified? That it's not an option but a sacred duty. Right. A sad duty. Right. When is j violence justified? And sometimes violence may be justified because of a religious understanding that that violates something that is actually Jewish-Christian. The right to life, the right of dignity. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_08And sometimes if you do the right thing by having the violence, that is a sad duty, you're the one who's going to go to jail.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's right. So I don't know. There's no real answer. There's no real ultimate real answer.
SPEAKER_08Well, before we finish tonight, I want to go back to something I said, and that's not just facing each other across the table, but facing sitting next to each other and working on the same things. Mario, I remember that St. Cyril used to be part of a local to St. Cyril uh like like food pantry and support. I can't think of the name of it though.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it was uh it it's it was called wham, West Houston Assistance Ministry. Is it still going on? Yeah, it's still going on. I don't think it's as strong as it used to.
SPEAKER_08That's too bad. Yeah. I know that in in my area in in Clear Lake, uh,
Universities, Free Speech, And Discomfort
SPEAKER_08we have an interfaith council, and there's a Baptist church that has a food pantry that my synagogue takes collections and donates to.
SPEAKER_03I I think they're still going on, but I I don't sense I don't know, I I don't sense a tremendous desire for interfaith dialogue with a lot of churches.
SPEAKER_08No, but there's still interfaith activities that bring churches together, not necessarily, you know, for dialogue, but for mutual uh efforts to join together to feed the poor, et cetera. Yeah, well I agree. David, I I I I are you still part of Ecclesia? Uh no, no. I uh we're we're you know living. You're differently, so you're okay. At the church you're part of, do they also have soup kitchens and stuff? Is there an interfaith dialogue community that gets together for that?
SPEAKER_07Yeah, yeah, there are there are aspects of that. You know, there's not again, as Father Martin said, it's less strong, uh, not as strong as it has been for a lot of churches, a lot of areas.
SPEAKER_08I think COVID went a long way to kill stuff like that.
SPEAKER_07I think it did. I think it it injured a lot of different programmatic things, and there are a lot of challenges that churches are facing right now. And you know, you you you you put water on the fire and then it's big blusters to you at that point. But yeah, there's a lot of still great and and Catholic charities and other groups, there's a lot of great outreach that is going on in order to uh feed the poor, to uh provide for people who have less, both in this country and then in other countries as well.
SPEAKER_08All right. We only have about a minute and ten seconds left. Uh Rudy, what I know nothing of Guatemala. So I assume that there are churches who also get together for charitable purposes.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, big time. Yeah.
SPEAKER_08What do they do?
SPEAKER_06You guys need to come down sometime. That's what you need to do.
SPEAKER_03I think you need to come up and let us meet your wife.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, forget Rudy, just bring your wife. We could also work around here to meet the wife, right? That's also true.
SPEAKER_06We can go to Antigua, we can go to the lake.
SPEAKER_08Say it again, Rudy.
SPEAKER_06We can go to Antigua, Guatemala, we can go to the lake. Um it's a good time. And you are formally invited, David. Formally, over the air, to thousands of people listening.
SPEAKER_07Well, all right. Let's make that happen. I'd love to go to Guatemala. I have friends down there and some great schools.
SPEAKER_08I no longer travel well. I'm not sure if I'd make it.
SPEAKER_03Well, it is time. Uh, we have reached the end of our time. And who is show director next week? Is it Rudy?
SPEAKER_08I believe it's Rudy.
SPEAKER_03Rudy, I think it's you.
SPEAKER_06Might be me.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_06It might be me. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03This is 1070 KNDH. You've been listening to the show of faith. Please keep us in your prayers. You're going to be in ours.
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