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A Show of Faith
Episode 176: Reverence Over Dread
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What if “fear of the Lord” isn’t about flinching but about focus? We open up a story-rich journey from biology to theology—starting with the amygdala’s fight-or-flight response and moving toward a scriptural vision of fear as reverence, awe, and a steady desire to please God. That shift changes how we face anxiety, how we read Proverbs’ “beginning of wisdom,” and how we frame our moral choices when life refuses to be simple.
Together, we tackle the language wars around “phobia,” pushing back on how labels get weaponized and how that harms those who truly live with clinical fears. Then we map three classic modes of religious fear—filial fear, servile fear, and scrupulosity—and ask which kind forms resilient hearts. Filial fear, the love-shaped reluctance to wound the One who loves us, emerges as the healthier way; servile fear may start a journey, but it cannot carry us home. Scrupulosity, meanwhile, can make faith feel like an audit you can never pass.
History gives the conversation teeth. Martin Luther’s struggle with “Have I done enough?” points to the need for assurance grounded in grace rather than in an infinite to-do list. We weave that with Thomas Merton’s beloved prayer—“the desire to please you does in fact please you”—as a daily compass for uncertain roads. Along the way, we confront idolatry: the subtle habit of fashioning a god who is harsh, narrow, and impossible to satisfy. True worship—worth-ship—reorders our loves, placing God first and neighbor close, so that everyday ethics (like slowing in a school zone) becomes an act of reverence, not appeasement.
Come for the theology, stay for the practical wisdom, the humor, and the honest questions. If you’ve ever wrestled with dread, with doing “enough,” or with the right way to name your fears, this conversation offers language, perspective, and hope. Listen, share with a friend, and if it resonates, subscribe and leave a review so others can find their way to a clearer, kinder vision of holy fear.
Welcome, Hosts, And Topic Setup
SPEAKER_12There's something happening here, but what it is ain't exactly clear. There's a man with a gun over there. A telling me I got to beware. I think it's time we stop. Children, what's that sound? Everybody look what's going down.
SPEAKER_18Welcome to a show of faith where priest, minister, millennial, and rabbi discuss theology, philosophy, morality, and ethics, and anything else that interests us. If you have any response to our topics or any comments regarding what we say, hey, we'd love to hear from you. Email us at a show of faith1070 at gmail.com. A show of faith1070 at gmail.com. You can hear our shows again and again by listening pretty much anywhere podcasts are heard. Our priest is Father Mario Arroyo, retired pastor of St. Cyril of Alexandria in the 10,000 block of Westheimer.
SPEAKER_02Hello.
SPEAKER_18Our professor David Capes is our Protestant minister, Director of Academic Programming for the Lanier Theological Library. Gentlemen, good to be with you. Always. Rudy Kong is our millennial. He's a systems engineer, master's degree in theology from the University of St. Thomas. Howdy, howdy. I am Stuart Federal, retired rabbi of Congregation Sha'ar Hushalone, the Clear Lake area of Houston, Texas. And uh tonight, Miranda is our uh board operator. And she makes us sound great.
unknownBoard operator.
SPEAKER_18Thank you. I couldn't remember the word board op. Okay. Uh so tonight, David Capes, our minister, is the show director. Take it away, David.
SPEAKER_04That is me. That is me. Well, first of all, Stuart, I hope you're feeling better. Last week.
SPEAKER_18I am definitely doing better than I was last weekend.
SPEAKER_04Good. And last week we also had a problem with Rudy's microphone. Rudy, can we hear you?
SPEAKER_03David. Can you hear me?
SPEAKER_04Yes. I can hear you. I can hear you.
SPEAKER_03You guys need to check your hearing aid.
Defining Fear: Biology And Phobias
SPEAKER_04Well, that's true. That's true. That's true. Uh first of all, I need to get one, and then I need to check it, I'm sure. Hey, tonight I thought what we would do is talk about this phrase that we read from time to time in the Holy Bible. And it is a phrase that is sometimes, I think often misunderstood, but it's also a very important idea in Christian theology. I think it probably is in uh in Judaism as well, Stuart. So we'll talk about that in a minute. But but the idea is the fear of the Lord. The fear of the Lord. Now, at first glance, it might sound like uh Christianity is teaching people to be afraid of God in some way. He's like a harsh and and and and terrible uh you know dictator, that kind of thing. But uh a Christian understanding of the idea of the fear of the Lord is a lot deeper and a lot richer than that. It it doesn't refer to uh cringing and dread from something, but to reverence, to awe, to obedience, and to respect toward God, toward a holy and sovereign God. So I thought we would talk about that tonight. Now, before we do that, I want to just talk a little bit about fear itself, uh, the the the idea of fear, and because fear is is something that's inbred into all of this, it's hardwired into all of this, honestly. The fear response, it's an automatic mechanism that kicks in in order to help us survive. That's the typical way it's understood. There's a part of the brain called the amygdala, and when when when there's a trigger, when there is something that you need to get away from, or something you need to fight, let's say, the fight or flight syndrome, as it's called, it's initiated by the amygdala. And the amygdala, when there's when there's a when there's a perceived danger, the the fight or flight response kicks in. Okay? So, and immediately there are physiological changes. These are not just uh changes in your head, these are physiological changes, hormones like adrenaline and cortisol, they are kicked into your system. Immediately, if anybody has one of these things, you know I'm talking about, your your heart rate increases, your breathing gets more uh gets shallow and more rapid, uh, your muscles tense up, you start maybe get sweating, start a sweating, sweaty pants, your your pupils dilate, and then your the energy in your blood is diverted away from your central core to to the limbs of your body to help you to fight or to help you to flee at that point. Now, these these are real fear responses, and they're a part of what humanity is. And so a lot of people I think might have the notion, and I think people have, that fear, the fear of God is like that. So I thought I would just uh just as a lark, I thought I would talk about a couple of common phobias. Now, nobody none of you guys have these phobias, I'm sure. But these are first of all, I'm gonna get I'm gonna leave one in each segment of the show. The first one is called arachnophobia. Oh, yeah. What is that?
SPEAKER_18Fear of spiders.
SPEAKER_04Yep. Fear of spiders, okay.
SPEAKER_18Yeah, I'm raising my hand and pointing to myself.
SPEAKER_04Okay. Are you are you are do you have a fear of spiders?
SPEAKER_18I do not like spiders at all.
SPEAKER_04Okay, okay. Ophidiophobia. What's ophidiophobia? I have no idea. No real idea. All right, ophidio is a is a Greek word for snake. Oh. So it's a fear, is a fear of snake.
SPEAKER_18Yeah, I'm I'm probably that too. As a matter of fact, there was a song about me a long time ago. I'm I don't like spiders and snakes.
SPEAKER_04That was the song on the radio. That was a long time ago, Stuart. Yes, I know. Shows how old it was. What about a xenophobia? Cenophobia. No idea. Fear of dogs. Oh no, dogs. Oh, really? Yeah, fear of dogs. And a mu musophobia. The fear of miso soup? No. Fear of miso soup? No, no. Maybe a dislike for miso soup. But moosophobia, moosophobia is a fear of mice or rats.
SPEAKER_18Okay.
Awe Versus Dread In Scripture
SPEAKER_04So at any rate, here's here's the I mean, I just tried to try to be a little silly there, but but uh this is a this is not the kind of fear that we talk about when we we describe here the fear of the Lord. It's not this cringing dread, it's not this fly fight or flight. It is the sense, an overwhelming sense of reverence and awe that will lead to a desire to love and respect God. Now, Stuart, tell us about the idea of the fear of the Lord in the Old Testament.
SPEAKER_18Well, my my one of my favorite verses, for what will be obvious reasons when I read it, uh has this concept in it, and it's uh Leviticus chapter 19, verse 32. Leviticus 19, 32. You shall rise up before the white-haired head and honor the face of the old man. And then it says, and fear your God, I am the eternal. And the word fear there, if you all want to look it up, is uh uh with a strong concordance, Hebrew 3372, H 3372. And it it's exactly what you said, David. Some of these they translate as fear like to be afraid of, but the vast majority of of words they use to translate it is to stand in awe of, to be awed by, to hold great reverence, to great respect, uh to cause astonishment, to cause awe, to be held in awe. Uh so it it's not you know how you know how words in Shakespearean English change to mu in modern English in the modern use? I think that's I think that's the kind of thing that happened with the word fear. I don't know if it was King James or whoever, but they really meant they really meant awe and respect when they used the word fear, but now the word fear means like to be terrified from. But I think originally fear really did mean awe and respect and all these things that we you know that we've been saying.
SPEAKER_02May I uh jump in here? Um I I just in my head I was just thinking how overused the word phobia is, which means fear.
SPEAKER_18Yeah, well, it means irrational fear. Yeah, yeah. Phobia is an irrational fear.
SPEAKER_02Aaron Powell Yeah, but it's interesting because uh for example, what would you call a justified fear of Islam?
SPEAKER_18You would not call it Islamophobia. That's but but but everybody is irrational.
SPEAKER_02I know but see, the moment that somebody call you criticize anything, you know, um it y you are accused of being unreasonable.
SPEAKER_18Right.
SPEAKER_02And so, for example, Islamophobia is is immediately characterized by to people who have a justified fear of Islam because they don't think there should be any unjustified fear of Islam.
SPEAKER_18They don't think there should be any justified fear of Islam.
SPEAKER_02That's correct. That that's what I mean. Right. They don't think there should be any.
SPEAKER_04Right. And so I I think that's yeah, I think too uh too, Barry, I think this is a usurp usurpation of language.
SPEAKER_02Yes, it is.
SPEAKER_04It is a real spit spitting in the face. To serve an agenda.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and and let me listen.
SPEAKER_04No, I mean, but listen, to think about all the people. There's probably a billion people across the planet who have panic attacks, who are afraid, and have these fears that cause these recognizable uh physiological changes in their body that cause them to want to just run out of a room as a result of the fact that, you know, they have to get up to do public speaking or something like that. I mean, there are there are people who are crippled by these things. And it if and to take a word like that and put phobia, I've even heard the term Christophia.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yes, yes, I've heard that too.
SPEAKER_04That is that is people are who are afraid of Christianity, right? And it's not really fear. That's what's the thing. It's just a distrust.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Or a a a go ahead. I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_02No, I go I was gonna say, uh, have you ever heard of oecophobia? Oh, say it again. Oeecophobia. Oeeko? No. Yes. No, that's it. This is a real fear. Right?
SPEAKER_18What is it?
SPEAKER_02It is the fear of your own house or your own people. Meaning, let me say let me say it to you. The the word comes from the Greek uh, and you can tell me that, David, if this is correct. Oiko O-I-K-O-S, Oiko?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, oikos, oikos, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Oikos, okay. And phobia, it is a tendency to criticize or reject one's own home or society while praising others. It has been used in political context to refer critically to political ideologies that are held to repudiate one's own culture.
SPEAKER_18Boy, does that sound familiar?
SPEAKER_02Familiar because it is it is anything that is American. It's modern America, and it's constantly self-criticism or ecophobia.
The Politics Of “Phobia” Language
SPEAKER_04I I think I think any time you do that, I think anytime you put phobia on a word like that in order to make a political point, you're spitting in the face of people who have a recognized medical problem. And we should not do that, we should not use that language. That's right. We should not dishonor nearly a billion people on the planet who really do have medical disorders that are tied to these things. We can sort of laugh about, you know, a fear of mice or something like that. But I have known people who were had a deadly fear of dogs, and and it caused them to have to really have a very small circle of friendship because they could not be friends with people who had dogs. They couldn't go to their house, they couldn't welcome their home. I mean, things like that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_18I I don't remember the name of it, but what about the fear that makes people stay in their home? They won't go out. Agora, agoraforme, thank you. Okay, that's crippling too.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, but absolutely.
SPEAKER_02You know, there should be a word that and and you said there isn't, but there should be a word of realistic fear of something. Uh and I don't think there is because the it's it's an interesting thing because a lot of people are accused of having phobia when your fear is actually a justifiable fear. Um so um anyway.
SPEAKER_04And again, I would not even classify it as a fear. I would classify it as a distrust or dislike or disagreement with that kind of thing. I mean, because our our palms don't get sweaty, our hearts don't race. I mean, we don't feel like we have to run out of the room as soon as uh somebody from my own clan comes in. You know, it's wakophobia. But uh at any rate, I you know, I I do think we need a different kind of of vocabulary to help us. We need a new vocabulary to express the fact we gotta get out and and take a break.
SPEAKER_02That's right.
SPEAKER_04We are um fear of missing a break.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, breakophobia. Oh break uh skip a break of phobia. This is 1070k and th and we'll be right back.
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SPEAKER_02Yeah, but before we go on, do you I had two guys come over today to install drapery. You know what their names were?
SPEAKER_18I give.
SPEAKER_02Kurt and Rod. Kurt and Rod.
SPEAKER_04Oh God. Kurt and Rod.
SPEAKER_18Kurt and Rod. Okay. Kurt and Rod. I do have to remember that one.
SPEAKER_02Rudy, what let's bring in Rudy. He hasn't talked yet.
SPEAKER_04I want to hear from Rudy. Rudy, what do you what do you think? I mean, as a millennial, what do you think about this stuff, the fear of the Lord?
Filial, Servile Fear, And Scrupulosity
SPEAKER_03I think there has been a I think about anthropologically, right, and I think about history and what it meant to have fear. And there was a lot of um there was a lot of fear of a lot of things. There was a lot of death everywhere, right? I think it's easy to kind of see things today. And I think that's part of the part of the reason that we have so many phobias. Because I think I think we can use this word correctly. Having fear to uh to a point is is natural, right? We were designed that way. Now, phobia is is a whole nother kind of ballpark, right? And and um there's there's there's a lot of rabbit holes that I think we could we could kind of dig into that, but for a long time and for much of history, there were just so many things happening, wars and destruction and volcanoes exploding, and storms, and disease. And nobody knew what the heck was going on, right? Or why things like this occurred. So it it's it's interesting. I don't know if in in the past, for example, if you think of uh ancient Mesopotamia or Greece or Rome or something like that, you know, and you have all these different gods of everything, right? The god of war, the god of love, the god of mis. Um maybe they what they really had was just phobias of war and phobias of so I find it interesting that the notion of fear is in in a very real sense, sort of naturally ingrained um, right? I mean, we're we're we're sort of we're we're taught from an early age, for example, um classic, you know, my mom would tell me something and then I wouldn't listen, and then I'm gonna tell your dad, you know, and so here I was like, oh no, you know, if she tells dad, something's gonna happen.
SPEAKER_02And I think But that's a reasonable, that's a reasonable fear. Wouldn't it be a reasonable fear?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. A reasonable, yeah. I mean, I I I was trying to Google it during the break, and the closest I could find was natural fear. Yeah. Right?
SPEAKER_02I mean that's here's what I would like to ask David though, and I asked David because I asked for Stuart and we didn't come couldn't come up with anything. Going back to fear of the Lord, what if uh you had an unreasonable because if we were talking about phobias, phobias are unreasonable fears. What would you call an unreasonable fear of God?
SPEAKER_18Theo or Deus.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, the probably theophobia.
SPEAKER_18Theophobia.
SPEAKER_04Because they they take the Greek word uh, you know, whatever the Greek word is, and in this case be tha, and then they attach that to the the root, this root ideophobia. So theophobia would be a fear of God. If a person has an unreasonable uh fear that God was after him or God was headed out for him or something like that, that could be that could be a recognizable probably uh condition. So yeah, yeah. Well one of one of my going back to Stuart's comments, one of my favorite uh passages is in Proverbs, it says the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. I think it's chapter 1, verse 9, verse 8, something like that. It's early on in that chapter. And I think it's repeated several times. But the idea is that the the again, the word fear is is not a great, great word. It's sort of like the word in Christ to Christ who was talking about this back in the Elizabethan period and the Shakespearean King Jamesan kind of thing, where the word ghost. You know, and so we we we get the phrase Holy Ghost as opposed to Holy Spirit. Today we think the term Holy Spirit is probably a better translation of that because of the idea of a ghost, which is a spirit, but it's this particular kind of spirit that doesn't seem to be related to that. So the fear of the Lord. So so fear here, when you say the fear of the Lord is beginning wisdom, it's connected to wisdom, the idea of knowledge and and moral insight and living well before God. I think I define wisdom as the ability to live life well and to make good decisions. That's kind of that's a very practical definition. But the ability to live life well. Most of us would love to live life well. And and and and and such. And so from I think the the Hebrew Bible's point of view, all this is clearly tied back to the Torah, because righteous living is connected to what God has revealed in his teaching. So it's it's the fear of the war, there it is, both knowing who God is and being rightly related to God, I think, is the is the idea. Knowing who God is, God is creator, God is judge, God is the savior, and and to be able to say, well, as as a result, I'm not a cre creator, I'm a creature, right? And I'm not to be judged. I am, in a sense, to be judged.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Right? And I am to be redeemed out of that. So I think knowing who God is and knowing who we are in response is a is a important aspect of what it means to fear the Lord.
Luther, Assurance, And Works Anxiety
SPEAKER_02Amen. We gotta go to a break. But when we get back, when we get back, I wanna I I just looked up on Chat GPT, and it's interesting because it's a in theology there's three different kinds of fear that we should take a look at. One is called felial fear, the other one is servile fear, and the other one is scrupulosity. And we'll talk about that when we come back. Okay.
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SPEAKER_18Welcome back to a show of faith on AM 1070, the answer. Mario, you're gonna tell us about the three contents.
SPEAKER_02Which not only it's a gift to the Holy Spirit, if you could look at uh Isaiah chapter 11, verses 2 and 3. Um they they talk about that. It's rooted in reverence and in awe, and it's considered healthy and holy. And I think that's true. I I think that's real.
SPEAKER_18It's real. No, no, no, but I think that's the real fear of the law.
SPEAKER_02The real real fear. Now, servile in in Catholic theology, there's what's called servile fear, or um fear of the punishment of hell and or its consequences. It's not perfect, but can be the beginning of a conversion.
SPEAKER_18But Mario, wouldn't Catholicism still say that it's better to obey out of love? Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_02Yes, it would. But there's a lot of people who are who are afraid of God because of the fear of hell. But that's more the third one. No, that's the the last one is scrupulosity. Exactly. No, scrupulosity is where you find sin, you're afraid of sin everywhere. You do anything.
SPEAKER_18But but it still seems to be rooted in something impure.
SPEAKER_02It it is But for example, in the Catholic theology, there's an act of contrition that says, Oh my god, I'm heartily sorry for having offended thee because of uh uh because of the pains of hell, but most of all because the offending my God.
SPEAKER_18But most of all.
SPEAKER_02But most of all, but still for the pains of hell. There are people who are very afraid of going to hell.
Schindler’s List, Conscience, And Enoughness
SPEAKER_18So they're obedient to the But it's the sword of Damocles hanging over their head. It's not a belief in faith.
SPEAKER_02But it's still better than not being afraid. You should be afraid of going to hell. Fear even Jesus said you believe it exists. Yeah, well, that's true. I mean, we're we're talking Christian here, Christian. Yes, clearly. Um there are Christians who who even Jesus said, fear him who has the power to cast into hell. Didn't did he say that, David?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, he did, yeah, a couple of times.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, a couple of times. So what mean we're talking about?
SPEAKER_04And the uh the other side of that is is that most of us are afraid of human beings. Right? I mean, m one of the one of the most pervasive fears that humans have is fear of other human beings. And the according to uh theologians, Protestant theologians, the cure for that is a right relationship with God, a proper understanding. The fear of the Lord will cancel out or dissolve these other fears that are that are unreasonable.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. David, uh I'm getting a lot of this. I checked uh I I I I did uh just ask uh Chat GPT to get to give me an understanding. The question I asked is explain how these fears uh differ from Protestant or secular psychological ones to Catholic. And one of the things that it brought out was very interesting to me, I think it's something to be interesting to discuss, and that is the example of Martin Luther, because Martin Luther himself experienced an intense fear of divine judgment. Uh and and one of the the emphasis of uh of uh there was a view of humanity in with a tremendous accent on on human depravity, and the resolution came primarily from that whole idea of justification by faith and assurance of salvation. And and so the the the fear was resolved by confidence in the promise, not in sacramental mediation.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that that's more of the Lutheran sort of perspective on that, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that is the Lutheran uh yeah, but it it's it's interesting because the whole idea that Luther uh rejected works, uh, you know, salvation by faith alone was because of his intense fear of not having done enough good works to be saved.
SPEAKER_04Right, right. So it's yeah, and so it it's it's based in reason to some degree. If if you say that I have to do 10 good works a day in order to be saved, what about eleven? Why shouldn't I do eleven? Why shouldn't I do twelve? Why shouldn't I do thirteen? And so you never truly know, and so Luther was I don't think tortured. Well, otherwise, he was tortured by the by the the question of whether he had done the right works, the right way with the right disposition and all of that to get his heart right. He started out, he started out uh you know as a Catholic monk. Yeah. That's where he started, but he ended up obviously a great reformer of the church for a lot of reasons, uh, such. I say great reformer, a a protester, I should say of a protester. Yes. But but but go back to that second kind of fear that you started talking about, not scrupulosity, but the filial fear.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_04The the Because serve servile feel is more like the the slave who is afraid of the master, right? The serv the servant is afraid of the master.
SPEAKER_02But uh Rudy, maybe you can remember this. There's an act of contrition that I forgot right now, but it talks about uh oh Lord, I'm heartily sorry for having offended thee because of thy just punishments, but most of all because ofe my God, because of thy just punishments, the the whole idea of fear of hell, that's a it's that's a legitimate, it's even called imperfect contrition. Do you remember any of that?
Idolatry And Inadequate Images Of God
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so there's uh oh my god, I'm heartily sorry for having offended thee, and I detest all my sins because of thy punishments, but most of all because I offended thee. Yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's correct. And something I thought about, um, I I don't know if you guys have ever seen that movie uh Schindler's List. Yeah. Um but at the end of the movie, you know, um he he you know, he has his wedding fan, you know, and he's like and he's he's thinking about all the things more that he could have done, right? All the things more that that uh um sorry, this is uh um this is kind of where it led me to is because of the sort of immeasurable um amount of love that God has for us. I think that that aspect of what you were saying, David, why not 11, 1 not 12, 1 not 13? I mean, I think that's part of inherent in the same mystery of the love of God. You know, that it's never He is just so infinitely immense, you know, that that for us it's just it's always going to feel like it's just not enough compared to His greatness, compared to His love, compared to His size, if you will. So I think when you step into that life and when you step into that world, I think eventually if it's done out of filial love, right? Unauthentically, I think it's normal that you feeling you're not doing enough. And so I think it kind of comes with the territory too. So I guess I'm not kind of summarizing it a little bit, but I think it's a territory at any rate.
SPEAKER_04No, I I love that uh example of Schindler's list and him thinking about what more he he could have done. Right. I mean he saved, I don't know, Stuart, did he save a thousand people?
SPEAKER_18Uh I think it was eleven hundred, something like that. Eleven hundred. At the end of the movie, he's going over what he could have done, should have done, would have done, whatever, because he's seeing his failures, not seeing his successes. And I gotta you gentlemen were there. When I when I was retiring, that's what was on my mind. Was not my my successes. It was what could I have done? What could I have done better? And and knowing certain things where I failed on.
SPEAKER_04So I I guess I think that's a very human thing to recognize. Exactly, right? And I think this is typical of us. We wondered what else we we might have done. And and uh wow, that's it it's a powerful moment, you know, to to think about those kinds of things that we have achieved and things we would have liked to have achieved uh during during our work, during our ministry, that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_02But you know that I that ex that that goes into what's called scrupulosity. That scrupulosity is an unreasonable uh and obsessive fear of sin, of not having done enough, or of having committed sin, where you think everything you do is sinful. And the other would side of scrupulosity would be the whole idea of I've never done enough, I haven't done enough, I haven't done enough.
SPEAKER_18That's that's Wh which to me is and this may key into something that David was talking about before we got on the air, and that is uh idolatry. It is uh painting a picture of God who is unreasonable, demanding, asks us for more than we're capable of giving, and then condemns us for not doing it. And that's that's neurotic. That's my word for it. It's neurotic, just weird. Although nobody uses the word neurotic anymore.
SPEAKER_04So so so connect that dot with the idea of idolatry, Stuart.
SPEAKER_18Well, idolatry is the idea of worshiping something as God that is not God. So an idol is uh an idol is an image of God, but it's but the image isn't God, but it's worshiping as if it were God.
SPEAKER_02The problem the problem is that no image is God, and we need to talk about the that's exactly the point. We're gonna be talking about that when we get back.
SPEAKER_18All images of God are insufficient.
SPEAKER_02That's right. This is 1070 KNTH, and we'll be right back.
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SPEAKER_18Then gentlemen, that is lonesome nights of Welcome back to our show of faith on A. 107 the answer.
Night, Needles, And The Merton Prayer
SPEAKER_04Alright, we've been talking about the fear of the Lord, the whole idea of the fear of the Lord. What does that mean? And talking about it in relationship to other kinds of fears, legitimate fears sometimes that humans have, but also those that seem to be a little bit too intense and too too irrational. Some of you might be tripanophobic. Are you tripanophobic?
SPEAKER_18Say it again?
SPEAKER_04Tripanophobic.
SPEAKER_18Okay. Try as three can is a Caribbean kind of musical instrument. I have no idea.
SPEAKER_04It's it's a fear of needle. Oh yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Injection. Injections from a doctor. And anybody. My own injections. Absolutely. Yeah. I don't even want to get my finger burned for a blood test. Yeah. Yeah. And and that means you're hemophobic, which is uh fear of blood. So anyway, that's a good thing.
SPEAKER_18Yeah, what about the argophobia? The fear of the dark.
SPEAKER_04Nyctophobia. Oh, okay. All right. Nick for night. So it's now now Father Barrett is not nectophobic.
unknownNo.
SPEAKER_02I am a Nyctophiliac.
SPEAKER_04Nyctophilia.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_04You really like the I like the dark.
SPEAKER_02Philios is is love of. Right. Nikt for night. For night. Oh, like I love the night.
SPEAKER_18Okay. There's a bunch of rock and roll songs about loving the night.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. In the opera of uh That's why I don't know what you're talking about. What's the opera?
SPEAKER_18Phantom of the opera.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, Phantom of the Opera.
SPEAKER_02Cast your eyes away. Cast your eyes away from the from the garish light of day. Move away from cold, unfeeling light, and listen to the music of the night.
SPEAKER_04There you go. Interesting. As a Puritant theologian, I I can't recall his name. He describes the fear of the Lord as the inclination of the heart to please God. The inclination of the heart. And I know, Father Mara, you have this prayer.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. The prayer of Thomas Merton.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I love that.
SPEAKER_02Would you mind sharing that at this point? It is a tremendous prayer. And it is it goes, My Lord and my God, I have no idea where I'm going. I do not know the road ahead of me. And the fact that I think I'm doing your will does not necessarily mean that I am actually doing so. But I do believe that the desire to please you does in fact please you. And I hope I have that desire in all that I am doing. I hope that I never do anything apart from that desire. And I know that if I do this, you will lead me by the right road, even though I may know nothing about it. Therefore I will trust you always. Though I may seem to be lost and in the shadow of death, I will not fear, for you are ever with me, and you will never leave me to face my perils alone. I think that's but I say that prayer all the time because it's a wonderful prayer. Because the guy whose prayer? Thomas Merton. He was a Catholic monk who died um about 20, 30 years ago. But he I love it because he got he admits, he says, I don't know where I'm going. I don't know if I'm doing it. I think I'm doing God's will, but how how do I know? But then the way he solves it is so ingenious. I believe that the desire to please you does in fact please you. And I hope I have that desire in everything that I'm doing. And I know that if I do that, you will lead me by the right road, even though I may know nothing about it. Therefore, I will trust you.
SPEAKER_18Can I ask you a question?
SPEAKER_02Sure. Yeah.
SPEAKER_18I'm asking all three of you the question.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_18So when you go into a school zone and it's 20 miles an hour, and you slow down to 20 miles an hour, the reason why you do it is to please the municipal court judge. That's what's on your mind. Is to please the court jud the court the judge of the court that would give you it, that would you would plead your case to for the ticket.
SPEAKER_02No.
SPEAKER_18That's my point. You do it because it's the right thing to do, it's safety, there's all sorts of reasons.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, see, it it is not weird to us. Mainly because I do not know ultimately in every situation, I don't know exactly what the right thing to do is. And that's exactly what he is.
SPEAKER_18God has expressed what God wants from us.
SPEAKER_02But that the God has not expressed in every circumstance what it is the right thing to do.
SPEAKER_18And and that's true, but we can get a pretty good sense of what it is.
SPEAKER_02But you might not get it right.
SPEAKER_18There's a natural law that says that we know roughly what God wants from us and what's right in the right. But I think you're not to be obsessive to talk about the thing.
SPEAKER_02I think you are excessively making things clear that are not clear. And some of us that I think you are uh exactly thinking they're clear that are not clear that are not clear.
SPEAKER_18I gotcha.
SPEAKER_02David or Rudy?
SPEAKER_18And you're right. Go ahead.
Pleasing God, Law, And Moral Discernment
SPEAKER_03I I think it's more about going back to Rabbi's example, it's about I I care so much about the other human beings around me that I don't want to do anything that would even begin to put anybody in danger. Right. And that's why that's why you drive, you know, to that. So I think it I think there's a kind of fundamental understanding where you where if you see things from the inherent image and likeness of God that we are all created under, and we we stem from there, then I think you can get to a lot of what we're saying are the correct things to do, right? But fundamentally, I I don't think we can always trust in the law, because as you know, the law for a very long time was I mean, slavery was legal. Um can I mean there's all kinds of things.
SPEAKER_02No abortion. Abortion is legal.
SPEAKER_03Abortion, right. So it it it doesn't make it it doesn't make civil law, not God's law. Not God's law, that's right. But I think I think a lot of people have been led astray following somebody who claimed that they understood God's law. So I think we always have to be kind of critical of that, and and and I think this notion, and going back to Palamaro your prayer, I think it's it's crucial to always be kind of self-criticizing, if I can kind of say it that way, right? Kind of like always asking myself, did I do the best thing? So not not excessively to where I can't even sleep at night and then I'm gonna, you know, die of a heart attack because I'm not sleeping, but I think it's important to maintain a conscious outlook of really throughout the entire day, right? And I think that's where a lot of where where prayer functions and confession and Catholics function, right? Is how did I go about my day? What did I do today? So having that kind of feedback loop in your head, and even modern psychology talks about it, it's just crucial to to to having or maintaining a a sort of a non-depressive cycle in your life. Because if not, I mean heck, with without without the transcendent and without it's easy to fall into depression and and very chaotic and toxic thoughts. So which is I think where a lot of idolatry stems or will blow out into, you know, because idolatry is not just uh, you know, a little statue of something, it's really anything that diverts from God's truth and greatness, right? It could be ourselves. It could be anything.
SPEAKER_18And and it is everything. It's wealth, it's it's movie stars, it's it's who's winning the team, you know, your favorite team or whatever. It it's uh excessive worship.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. You know the etymology of the word worship.
SPEAKER_18You you've explained it, but right now it's a good idea.
SPEAKER_02It is so it is so good easy. Ship, the final part of it, is the art or practice of anything. And like penmanship, authorship. Okay, and W O R is just a shortened version of the word worth. Worth.
SPEAKER_18Worth how much it is worth worth.
SPEAKER_02So worship is actually the art or practice of putting into correct order that which is worthwhile in your life. That's why you worship God. Yeah. Yeah.
unknownI like that.
SPEAKER_04David, uh, we I I think, yeah, yeah, I think where Stuart's example uh earlier went wrong was the fact that ultimately my loyalty is not to the municipal court judge, but to to the one true God. But that's that's where our loyalty is. Yes, that is where the loyalty goes. But this obsession is pleasing God is fundamentally different than trying to uh take take my uh uh works, the things that I do, and sort of fit them into uh a civil law like that. But but it's I don't I don't do it for the judge, I do it for the judge, the big judge. But is it obsession over works?
SPEAKER_02No, no, let me let me give you an example. I if I have a situation in my life to where if I challenge a person, it may make things worse. But the way that they're doing things right now is not a good thing. But if I challenge them, it may make it worse. And so I don't know what to do. And so I when when I'm constantly praying, I'm saying to God, I don't know what I'm doing. Help me to know.
SPEAKER_18But but you're asking God to help you to do what's right, yes, but you're not doing what's it just seems like it's a misplaced attention to pleasing God as opposed to what does God want from me.
SPEAKER_02Well, okay, we have to agree to disagree.
Humility, Worship, And Closing
SPEAKER_04We'll hopefully agree, disagree on that. You're all wrong at that point. So anyway, uh fear God, I think I think it leads to humility in us, putting putting ourselves in the right attitude of worship, and saying that the thing that is worth the most in my life is that's right, right relationship to God.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. By the way, before we need to get going, by the way, do you know why the melon got married in church?
SPEAKER_18The melon got married in church?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because it cantaloupe. This is 1070km th. And you have been listening to the show of faith where minister, preacher, and rabbi constantly talk.
SPEAKER_09We'll talk to you next week.com. Download our app 324.