A Show of Faith
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A Show of Faith
Episode 177: Leisure That Actually Restores
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Your phone says you’re relaxing. Your body says you’re fried. We sit down to untangle a question that hits almost everyone right now: why does leisure time so often leave us more tired than work? From Netflix marathons to endless scrolling, we look at how modern entertainment can quietly become “being held in between” one distraction and the next, never landing in real rest.
We connect that restlessness to a bigger spiritual theme: Sabbath. Not as a rule for rule’s sake, but as a humane rhythm God gives for life outside constant production. We talk about the difference between human downtime and God’s rest, why silence can feel like emptiness at first, and how compulsive leisure can mirror addiction when it becomes an escape from being alone with our thoughts. Along the way we pull insights from John Paul II and Seneca on “clutching” at one thing after another, plus a practical look at screen time and the algorithms built to keep us hooked.
We also share what healthy leisure can look like: creativity that gives your soul back, friendships that don’t revolve around productivity, time outdoors in creation, and the slow discipline of contemplation. If you’ve ever wondered why you keep running even when you finally have time to stop, this conversation offers a path toward a simpler, steadier life. Subscribe, share this with a friend who needs real rest, and leave a review with your favorite way to unplug.
Welcome And Host Banter
SPEAKER_15There's something happening here, but what it is ain't exactly clear. There's a man with a gun over there.
SPEAKER_04There we go. Here we go.
SPEAKER_10Telling me I got to be reason we don't want to hear you.
SPEAKER_04I can live with being disliked. Welcome to oh, I welcome to a show of faith where Professor, priest, millennial, and rabbi discuss the theology and philosophy and anything else that of interest in religion. Tonight we are not having our rabbi. He is doing rabbi things.
SPEAKER_10He is well.
SPEAKER_04He's unwell. Well, that's a rabbi thing.
SPEAKER_10Well, is it?
SPEAKER_04It's a human thing.
SPEAKER_10Yes, yes. Yes. Very human. Very human.
SPEAKER_04And anyway, um, if you have any responses or anything you'd like to talk about, um uh no any response to our topic or any comments regarding what we say, please. We'd like to hear from you. You can hear our shows again by listening pretty much anywhere that podcasts are heard. Now, tonight we have Professor David Capes. He is our Protestant minister who has been protesting for 500 years. He is he is the director of academic program for the Lanier Theological Library.
SPEAKER_10It is good to see you, sir.
SPEAKER_04Thank you, thank you, thank you. Our priest is me. I am Mario Arroyo. If you can roll your arch, it's arroyo.
SPEAKER_10I cannot roll my ars.
SPEAKER_04Don't do don't do what my when I was in high school, my my the nun who used to introduce me. See, if you can roll your arrest, you can say Mario Arroyo. If you can't, you say Mario Arroyo. But the nun who used to introduce, take attendance. My middle name is Jose. And instead of saying Mario Jose Arroyo, she would say Mario Josie Rerario. Rarero. It was a co-ed class. I had no intentions of being a priest. I was trying to be cool.
SPEAKER_10You were trying to be, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04I was trying to make it with the ladies, and I don't no longer do that, but you know.
SPEAKER_10Yeah, but at that point, that probably had a real cramp on your dating.
SPEAKER_04It was a real cramp. Rudy Kong is our millennial. He is a systems engineer and has his master's degree in theology from the University of St. Thomas, and he is on the air with us, with his lovely wife sitting probably next to him, Natalia. Rudy, are you there?
SPEAKER_09I am, and I have some leisurely news for you all, maybe for later.
SPEAKER_10Leisurely news. Okay. Well some things that you've accomplished in your leisure time, I guess.
SPEAKER_04And I am sitting here reading the introduction. Right. And the introduction, the next paragraph says, and I'm Stuart Federal, Rabbi Emeritus of Congregation Sha'ar Hasalom in the Clear Lake area of Houston. Obviously, he is not here.
SPEAKER_10He's not here. But he will be back.
SPEAKER_04But you know who is here?
SPEAKER_10Crystal. Crystal is here. Crystal is here.
SPEAKER_04Crystal. Crystal is our producer and our board operator.
SPEAKER_10She takes care of us.
SPEAKER_04She takes care of us. That's right. And she is wearing a magnificent shirt today.
SPEAKER_10That's right.
SPEAKER_04What does it say?
SPEAKER_10It says saved and silly.
SPEAKER_04Saved and silly.
SPEAKER_10And silly.
SPEAKER_04We can actually testify that she is saved and silly.
SPEAKER_10And silly, indeed.
SPEAKER_04But she's a wonderful woman.
SPEAKER_10Yes, she is. And she's a heck of a board operator. I was going to say something else, but I decided better not. A heck of a board operator.
SPEAKER_04She is a producer. She is a Hades of a board opera.
SPEAKER_10Oh no, no.
SPEAKER_04No, a Hades? Okay. A what do you call the place under? Not hell. The Jewish. The Jewish film. Sheol. Sheol. She's a cheole.
SPEAKER_10Sheol.
SPEAKER_04She's a cheole of of away.
SPEAKER_10That's probably more than she she wanted to know.
SPEAKER_04You see, this is why Stewart never lets me do the introduction.
SPEAKER_10Well, that's just a good reason for that.
SPEAKER_04There is a good reason for that.
SPEAKER_10Yeah. But you know, maybe next week he can be a guest on our show.
SPEAKER_04I hope so.
SPEAKER_10Yeah, that would be great.
SPEAKER_04I hope he can be a guest on our show.
SPEAKER_10Yeah. So we're so tonight, I mean.
SPEAKER_04Although it would have been nice to have him to interpret the Sabbath, you know, according to the R.
SPEAKER_10Well, that's that's kind of an important Jewish thing, right?
Why Free Time Still Drains Us
SPEAKER_04So what are we talking about tonight?
SPEAKER_10We're talking about leisure tonight. We're talking about free time, how we spend our free time. Uh you know, by by a lot of different accounts, Americans have more free time than most of the world. Than uh m a lot of the world. And we're unhappy in the way that we're using our free time because we find ourselves doing the same things over and over again with the same people, or we find ourselves locked into a cell phone, or watching Netflix for hours and hours and hours, or engaging in other stuff that is not necessarily free time, but it's not very satisfying.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, see that that's the problem. We think that just because something is free time, that it should relax you. When it the way most of us spend our free time, we end up being more exhausted, more empty. And the reason is that we're misusing our free time.
SPEAKER_10Okay.
SPEAKER_04We're misusing it's kind of like um imagine that that the you you you okay, we say apply to food what what we just applied to free time. You can eat whatever you want. Not what you need or what you should, but you can eat, you can do whatever you want, or you can free with whatever you want.
SPEAKER_05Okay.
SPEAKER_04So go ahead, eat whatever you want without any breaks on your wants. Are you gonna feel good? You're not.
SPEAKER_10No.
SPEAKER_04You're not. Because what's happening is we have taken freedom as an end in itself without saying that you need to use your freedom according to your humanity. Okay. What I mean by that is that your humanity, your freedom is is it's it's in it's interesting. Let me back up for a minute. Um the the the freedom means the lack of work. We are never meant we were never meant by God to enter a world of constant work. That's what the whole notion of the Sabbath is about. And so the Sabbath is not just time to do what you want, it's time to find a way to let to commune with God so that you can enter into God's rest. I'm I'm gonna ask you a question because you're much better at Bible than I am.
SPEAKER_06Uh yeah.
SPEAKER_04Okay. What is the psalm or the part of the Bible that says, they shall never enter into my rest?
SPEAKER_10Oh, there's a number of places uh like that. Um but it's the book of Hebrews, uh, as I recall.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_10I believe. I believe.
SPEAKER_04But notice I I just want to talk a little bit quickly. What does God do you think God that scripture means, they shall not enter into my rest? Because my rest is not necessarily free time.
SPEAKER_10Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_04Okay, I think when you say when God says my rest is when you are refreshed, when you are able to be at home with yourself and at peace with yourself. And my rest is different than any rest any other rest, that you are kept busy. In in Spanish, it's Rudy, it's this is I would like your support on this. Uh what would you say the word entretenido wouldn't mean? Rudy? He's not Rudy, you're not there. Rudy is not with us.
SPEAKER_10What happened? Maybe he's resting. Maybe he's resting. Maybe he's entered into the rest. He's entered into God's rest. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04His final resting place.
SPEAKER_10No, let's hope not. Let's not hope that's the rest of the rest of the rest of the case. So I mean the idea of my rest, so that would be God's rest. They shall never enter into my resting.
SPEAKER_04The question I have is what is the difference between r any human rest and God's rest? Rudy?
SPEAKER_10I don't know. He probably Hello. Hey, sorry about that. Hey, Rudy, that's okay. Father Mario, s restate that question for him. Well, it's it's a Spanish question.
SPEAKER_04Well, what what we're gonna talking about is that part in the moment uh in the Bible where it says that God says, they shall not enter into my rest. And I'm just saying about the d the rest of the God's rest as opposed to the human rest. And I and I use the word it it it exists in English, but listen to it in Spanish. But for me, the word in Spanish says a lot. The word entretenido.
SPEAKER_08Entretenido, yeah.
Sabbath Rest Versus Constant Entertainment
SPEAKER_04Look at me l listen listen to that word, and I think you can w wha how would you take it apart? Just leave entre tenido.
SPEAKER_08Entre Entre means in between, right? Entre algo Right, entre means in between and tenido tenido.
SPEAKER_07Entre tenido, tenido means that one up, tenido is tener, to have.
SPEAKER_04Like to have. Okay? So it it's the it's the cousin of our word entertainment. Okay, but in Spanish you can hear the word, it means to be held in between. You notice you're not either here nor there. You're in midair. You are not resting anywhere, you are running from place to place, and you are entertained, you are captivated in between things that keep you moving.
SPEAKER_10That's interesting. Okay.
SPEAKER_04In Spanish you can hear a bit better because entre means in between and tenido means to hold, to be held. So you are being held in between and you are never at rest. You go from one thing to another, to another to another, entertainment to another form of inner from one form of entertainment to another. To a next to the next.
SPEAKER_10Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_04And but you never are at rest because you are always being entertained and you are therefore tired.
SPEAKER_10Oh, I see what you're saying.
SPEAKER_04You're tired. Yeah. You can because you could just because you're not working doesn't mean that you are not being tired trying to rest, or trying, because we identify rest with fun. And fun is not necessarily restful.
SPEAKER_10Fun can be uh really exhausting. We we're we were talking about actually going to Disney, you know, at at a certain point. We took the kids to Disney years ago, and I remember going to Disney and having all this fun. Yes. Two or three days in a row. And by the third day, you're exhausted. I was saying, I think I'm gonna go back early today. You know, just because yeah, it was a lot of fun, and we were doing a lot of things with the grandkids and stuff, kids. But by it was exhausting and to come home from vacation to get to get rest.
SPEAKER_04That is entre tenido, to be held in between. You went from one thing to the other. Comment, Rudy.
SPEAKER_09I think I think we sometimes I mean, I don't know how you guys are, but um it's curious because I have I I thought about the opposite effect. If for example, I've been on vacation where literally we're doing nothing, and then it gets to a point where it's like doing nothing. Like I need something to do, you know, and I'll go find something to visit, or I'll pick up something, or I'll start reading something. You know, it's like it's like whether we're we're going full, if you will, you know, having all this entertainment done, or being not entertained, it's like it's like we're kind of oscillating in between these two things.
SPEAKER_04It's like we're searching for Yeah, I think, but uh what are you searching for? Because I think what you're searching for uh is to be found in common union with the rest of God. You know what I'm saying? Is when I have been fully rested, is when I have been in at peace and in common union with my experience of God, and I find myself not needing to run anywhere.
SPEAKER_10Yeah, I and I I think what Rudy was talking about, you know, is sometimes when we do sort of nothing, right? And that there's an exhaustion to that.
SPEAKER_04It is.
SPEAKER_10We I mean, and you say, Oh, well, I'm tired of not doing anything, I'm gonna do something. But that's not necessarily what we're talking about, leisure time. No. Because in leisure in leisure time, the the question is, we have a certain amount we all have a certain amount of time that we live on this planet, right? Yes. We're gonna we're gonna sleep about a third of our lives, we're gonna work about a third of our lives, and all the rest of that is gonna be for other things. And the question is, what other things are we we doing with it? And and and and that leisure time is free time, yes, but the question is what can we do that is productive, that is soul giving, right? Yes. That gives you your soul. One of the things that I do is, you know, I've I've been playing guitar for a number of years. I know we've got to go to break. But one of the things that I do that's very much soul giving for me is to go upstairs and to sit down and just plug in the guitar and just play. And I can do that, and I can comp what I've done is composed sh some songs, and what I've done is used some of those songs on my podcast and and shared them with other people. Those kinds of things, and that's soul-giving for me. That's my leisure time, but it's also creative time.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. I think that that's the the the the clear key word, creative. Yeah. Okay, we're gonna talk about that more when we come back. This is KMDH 1070, and we'll be right back.
SPEAKER_03Scott Jennings, it sees retribution.
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SPEAKER_05Johnny Angel, how I love it, how I chingle.
SPEAKER_04Welcome back to the show of faith. Here, let me introduce this little part from this article that I found. The article, by the way, is called What is Leisure for? Uh John Paul II and Seneca advise a college student. It was from the Imaginative Conservative. And um it is um, let's see, I don't know.
SPEAKER_10John Paul II was Pope beginning in l late 1970s.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I just can't find the date.
SPEAKER_10And then uh Seneca was a philosopher, Stoic philosopher that lived uh in the period after, I believe, trying to remember the exact dates. I don't have the exact dates, but who who lived in that same time frame as as Jesus and Paul and some others like that. So, but a stoic philosopher, they had a certain view of reality, and and it's really very well expressed in this particular uh article that we're talking about.
SPEAKER_04It it it is uh listen to this sentence sentence. How many people, especially the young, get trapped in dead-end compulsive behaviors in the name of leisure. How uh we swing, listen to this. We swing between desire and remorse, tossing on the waves as it were clutching at one another, uh clutching at one thing after another.
SPEAKER_10That's the uh in between. That's the in between.
SPEAKER_04Notice that. How many young people especially uh are trapped in dead end compulsive behaviors in the name of leisure? We swing, and this is the le the ent entertain, we swing between desire and remorse, tossing on the waves, as it were, clutching at one thing after another. There it is, clutching at one thing after another. Notice the word clutching. It's not a being held, it is it is almost a desperation clutching.
SPEAKER_10If I'm clutching something, I'm using a lot of energy to touch.
SPEAKER_04If you're clutching at something, also there is a sense of desperation.
SPEAKER_10Yeah, yeah, true.
SPEAKER_04Rudy, any comment here?
SPEAKER_09I I thought about somebody falling, right? So it's like you're you're in these kind of in these in these sort of in this kind of a bit, right? And you're sort of jumping from stone to stone, trying to clutch the something to kind of fall out, to hang on to, right? Because you clutch onto something when you're holding on for a right to find something that can contain you. So that's when you clutch the something. So here's how we we go from think to think in this example, right? Um you've talked about it, I've talked about things that we dove into, you know, we touched into um such negative um outcomes in our lives until until so I also find that this clutching of different things is is in some way a way to find that authentic uh uh substance, if you will, or that thing that you can clutch onto that can sustain you.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and see and see that's when it when you when I said to earlier when j in in that in Hebrews it says, they shall not enter into my rest. I think that entertainment is the opposite of God's rest. It's clutching from thing to thing, because you're you're empty and you're afraid to stop.
SPEAKER_10Well, it it's like uh what is what said here a minute ago is that these young people get trapped in these dead-end compulsive behaviors. And I I th I see so many guys, particularly playing hours and hours and hours of video games. And to what end? I mean, what are they accomplishing in that? Uh what what's going on? The same thing is true of these doggone cell phones. There are people who spend 18 hours a day of screen time. But the question is And they're just watching and watching and watching. And and these these companies are building in algorithms that keep us hooked. And if they know it. They keep us entertained. They like well, eat entertained, but it's more than that. I think it's much more than that, uh, particularly if our entertainment is is emptiness.
SPEAKER_04Remember what what is that it reminds me of addiction because what the heck is addiction? But exactly. Yeah. Taking you away from reality. Taking you away so you don't have to experience haven't you ever met people who cannot be alone who when they're alone have to have noise, they have to have something to do.
SPEAKER_10Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And they get I think that that is a spiritual condition that you are afraid to be uh alone. Alone because you're uh you realize uh the thin veil that separates you from what feels like emptiness but what is actually the beginning of the presence of God. The the beginning of the presence of God uh feels like emptiness because you're so used to entertainment. And so when you begin to uh when you begin to to be present to God let me tell you a quick story.
SPEAKER_10Uh yeah, finish with that. Finish that thought though.
SPEAKER_04When you begin to be present to God, uh you're so used to being entertained, to being held in between superficial realities that uh to be to be to stop being in between, it means you begin to fall down fall in. If you're be in between, you're not falling in. When you fall in, you f you don't know what's down there.
SPEAKER_06Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And the presence of God is what's down there. You're afraid, but you shouldn't be. Yeah. Because it is the presence of God that you're going to meet there.
SPEAKER_10So as soon as you get in the car, you turn on the radio, as soon as you get up in the morning, you turn on the news, and and it's just on all day, and you keep it going and you keep some noise because you don't want to be still with your thoughts.
SPEAKER_04Notice that that version in the Bible be still and know that I am God.
SPEAKER_10Actually, yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_04Be still and know that I am God. It is required. If you don't if you don't cultivate the presence of being present to the stillness, you will never rest. Because you are always going to be held in between, entertained. You're always going to be held there. Rudy, any comment?
SPEAKER_09I think it's interesting. Um John Paul in that um in that dialogue says, if you wish to fill your time, why not fill it with the one who fills all things? And I think this kind of this is this is gonna be w without the ram right here. I think we can have we can we can dig maybe into this a little bit like the lie the serpent told. Sorry, we have to go to break with the right.
SPEAKER_04Go ahead.
SPEAKER_09Okay. If if the lie the serpent told us was that we were we were like God, right, then there's something inherent with our fault, right, that wants to maintain that lie. So the thing that breaks us out of that lie is filling ourselves with the truth, and that truth is Christ. That's right.
SPEAKER_04So it's you can't you that's why entering into God's rest is being in common union with the one who gives you rest. And giving you rest is being united with God. You cannot have true rest without being united with God. I don't think you can.
SPEAKER_10Let's go to a break comeback.
Idolatry Worship And Screen Addiction
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SPEAKER_04Oh, the Mario of leisure, yes.
SPEAKER_10Are you? No, not leisure suits. Okay, go ahead. I'm sorry, Rudy, go ahead. Being silly.
SPEAKER_09Well, I was gonna say, would you say that modern or entertainment is a form of idolatry?
SPEAKER_04I don't know.
SPEAKER_10It it could be. It can be.
SPEAKER_04You know, it's interesting because um let's bring in the etymology of the word worship. Remember, they for those of you who've never heard, it's a very simple word. Ship, the end the suffix or ship. Ship means the art or practice of anything. So for example, penmanship, sportsmanship, authorship. When you have ship, there you are putting the art or practice. So what's left? The W O R. The W O R, then you have ship, is the is the the uh an abbreviation of the word worth. So when you are worshipping something, you are practicing, engaging in the practice of what is of putting things that are worthwhile in their proper order. And that's what you just said. When you put entertainment as your highest worth, you are worshiping entertainment and therefore you are idolatry. Yeah, correct.
SPEAKER_10What are your thoughts, Rudy, on that?
SPEAKER_09I think I think it's it's a slippery slope because I think it's maybe how we define entertainment, right? Because I could for example, I can go see an opera or a movie, you know. Um and and you know, we can go once a week to go see a movie, and I think that's something reasonable, right?
SPEAKER_10Absolutely.
SPEAKER_09Every single day, three right, three or four hours, and then I go with my wife to go see you know w whatever you um and I think so that type of entertainment we get out, but still is that time that I could have spent contemplating that I could have spent in in prayer, is that time that I could have spent so it's you know, I think you have to look at the rest of the things that are going on around you, right? Is it but is it like you're saying, are you using it as an escape to further?
SPEAKER_04But you know, but you know but you know, Rudy Rudy, I think periodically I remember many years ago that I'm much better at my own solitude. Uh it's an intentional solitude, I'm much better at it today. But I remember when I was not so good at it and I had sometimes I I I entered into solitude and I was so unused to it that I needed to c come out of it for a little bit and just rest I mean not rest, be entertained, because it was almost too much for me to uh to uh uh to gr uh assimilate.
SPEAKER_10Yeah, yeah, I I don't I don't want to suggest that what we're saying tonight is that you need to spend eight hours a day in solitude and in contemplation. Uh uh occasional movies, uh occasional sports, uh, those kind of things perfect, great use of that kind of thing. But I have known men my own age or maybe a little younger, who all they could talk about and all they would want to do is watch sports on television. They could tell you thousands of things about of sports statistics, and they could tell you every station that was on that about sports, that gets to be idolatrous. That can be idolatrous. And there's per it's perfectly fine to go watch the Astros or watch the Texans kind of thing. But if that's all you do with your time, just like it's if it's all you do with your time is to play video games or scroll on the internet for hours and hours and hours and hours and hours, then that gets to be an issue that is soul sucking and not soul giving.
SPEAKER_04Because you feel empty and you try to fill it with junk.
Solitude Outdoors And Soul Giving Creativity
SPEAKER_10Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_04You try to fill it with junk.
SPEAKER_10One of the things I loved about this article that I totally agree with is that the suggestion, I think it was Seneca in this, that says that we should actually go outside and enjoy creation that God has made. That we should be spending, we should use some of our leisure time and our free time truly being outdoors, not running or jogging or anything, but just walking in the woods, just investigating something that that God has done in creation.
SPEAKER_04Because you will see the reflection of God in that.
SPEAKER_10Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_04We will.
SPEAKER_10And and you'll also because God has put within us curiosity. Yes. We are the only curious beings, right, on the planet. No nobody else is doing science. Yeah. No, no, no other creatures on this planet. We are the ones that can do it, and we're the ones that do do it, in part because we are the the curious ones. And we slake uh we slake our curiosity by investigating the world that God has made. And that is a good, good, good thing to do with part of our time. Otherwise, we're surrounded. Take a look at where we are right now. Everything that I see this very moment was man-made. Yes. I'm in a radio studio, I am, I see glass that was man-made, I see ceiling tiles that were glam man-made, I see light that is.
SPEAKER_09Oh, whoa, whoa, David.
SPEAKER_10What?
SPEAKER_09Father Mario is not man-made. He is man-made. Oh, wait a minute. No, I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_10But I can't see him. He is so bright, I cannot, he is, he is just full of glory, and I can't see him. No, I'm just talking about the stuff around us, you know. And if you spend your whole life surrounded by stuff that is man-made, then you're gonna end up thinking that man is the measure of all things, that human beings are pretty much.
SPEAKER_04Listen, listen, listen to this part.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Only the life that includes solitude. Solitude not of worry or of dissipation in trivialities, but a solitude of calm thought and recollection can flow as a life should in a single gentle stream. Because there's the difference, the difference in terms of the kinds of solitude. A solitude not of worry or dissipation in trivialities. Okay, that's all that's what a lot of people run away from. But a solitude of calm thought and recollection. That is the only kind of solitude that will bring you a life of a gentle as a gentle stream. And I think that that's exactly right. The problem is that we don't know how to cultivate that kind of solitude. We are we we our solitude usually is one of anxiety and and and of dissipation. I need to have something to do. I need to have something to do.
SPEAKER_10Yeah. I gotta accomplish something.
SPEAKER_04I gotta accomplish something. And actually, that's something of very interesting in terms of American. Don't you ever American culture says, I'm wasting time. So what does that mean? It does it mean that you are constantly expected to be productive? Because the very nature of the Sabbath is to not be productive, to be in the presence of God, and to that's why he says, be still. Don't produce anything. We uh that is something that we need to maybe expand on.
SPEAKER_10Yeah, we got six days to produce something, right? Six days in a week to produce something. Yeah. We gotta we gotta take one day where we just We don't produce We don't produce anything, but that we do commune with each other and be present with our friends, be present with our family, but but also be present with God.
SPEAKER_04But the problem is that we think that the reason for our existence is to be productive. And we are not love, we are we are not sure that we are lovable if we are not producing. You know, we put people who are not productive in nursing homes. We that you know, people our culture does not value nonproductive. We don't value people for God's creation. Things have to be productive.
SPEAKER_10Well, there are a lot of things about our culture that are problematic. Yes, right. You know, I mean it just because it's cultural doesn't mean that it's s ordained by God in some way. Uh Rudy, in in in Guatemala, how how uh is there a sense that people have to always be producing, or is there a sense that people can be uh more relaxed, more thoughtful, more present with friends?
SPEAKER_09What I think well I I think in Guatemala we're we're very Americanized in that sense, that we're busy, busy, busy. Traffic here is also pretty bad, so it just kind of takes a little bit to get to places. I think maybe what I would say does give us a bit of a fading grace is our Latin culture. I think we're a little bit more hey, let's meet up with friends, let's have a drink, you know, let's get together for dinner. Um and and you know, and I think we're much more uh amicable to those types of encounters, if you will, you know, like it's okay to have a dinner with some friends, and I'm not sitting there talking about business or trying to solve some crisis, you know, we're just kind of talking, you know, exposing maybe, you know, it doesn't have to be every conversation doesn't have to be this like life-altering conversation. You know, I can just sit here and we can I can talk to you about like like if I were to sit down with you, David, and we talked about guitars for an hour and we shared some things, you know, would that be a waste of time? No. Because we would get to know each other in a capacity that's different, right? That's not necessarily something economically valued by culture, right? Because what did we actually get out of that that's monetary? Well, maybe nothing, right? But hey, it was a good conversation and we played some jams, and I feel happier. So maybe it is worth something, right?
SPEAKER_10Oh, it is, it's incredibly valuable. And and part of that is uh I I think our culture has sort of set us up to think that we have to always be producing something.
SPEAKER_04Yes. Or we are, quote, wasting or or you are useful.
Culture Art And Seeing Beyond Ourselves
SPEAKER_10I love that about Latin culture, though.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Okay, this is 1070 KNTH, and we'll be right back.
SPEAKER_03The answer.
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SPEAKER_03Hey, 1070, NFM 1033, the answer.
SPEAKER_04Okay. Okay, these are the last.
SPEAKER_10No, I was doing the twist.
SPEAKER_04That's what I mean. Shaking your butt.
SPEAKER_10That is uh I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_04It's interesting to see.
SPEAKER_10I'm insulted.
SPEAKER_04It's interesting to see a 70-year-old man shaking his butt doing this. Hey.
SPEAKER_10Shake them if you got them, right? Come on, right. What are you gonna what do you what do you say? What do you say? Okay. Hey, listen, I love this about the article. Let me let me just I'll I'll just quote it here a second ago uh uh uh in a second. Um we should open our in this talk, but we're talking about the use of leisure time. Yeah, the use of our free time. And in this article, you've got John Paul II, you've got Seneca, and you've got a 21 year old, I think, named Matt, talking about life, right? In this regard, he says we should open ourselves to the riches found in the works of human culture. Yes. And I thought that was a really interesting thing that that we sh we should go to the opera.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_10We should go to the movie. Now there's probably some movies we shouldn't go to. Right? There are certain places on the web I should not go to be, quote, entertained. But looking at great architecture, man, I love that stuff. My wife and I last summer went to Eastern Europe. And we were in Germany, we were in Vienna, we were in uh Bratislava, in Slovakia, we were in Prague. You would not believe how glorious a lot of those buildings are. And we were learning about their culture, we were learning about the people who were there. I these are people who were behind the Iron Curtain, right? During the Cold War, behind the Iron Curtain. I thought all of those people were communist, thoroughgoing communists, and they hated the West. But in fact, most of those people over there just were living their lives and they hated what had happened to their countries. And they could not wait until it over until it was all over. You know, because they they they were not voluntarily there. Their buildings, their their the art, the music that came out of that was incredible.
SPEAKER_04It's interesting because I'm seeing I've been watching some of the stuff that's going on with in Iran and to listen to some of the Iranians that are saying, well, I feel but we feel like a weight has been lifted off of us. Now we don't know where it's going. But it's the same thing. You know, they have had uh a regime put on them almost like a slavery. Yeah. Almost like a slavery.
SPEAKER_10It's been so so tough for them.
Training The Mind For Contemplation
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Um I'm gonna Rudy, um we have about eight minutes, and I'm gonna tell a story, and I'm gonna give David a chance to say some closing, but I want you to go first. Any kind of final reflections that you want to give on this?
SPEAKER_09I think it's it's important that how do I say I'm gonna give an example of of myself. Um for for a while, I I think I related to to to a lot of what you said earlier, that it it's taken me some time to be comfortable with my solitude. And for a lot of for a lot of my life, and you know, hopefully I have many more years to go, but it was very hard to just be quiet because the moment I was quiet, all these thoughts, feelings, unsolved things would start popping into my head and it would start stressing me out. And I think that's kind of the problem that we find ourselves into, and from my opinion, what causes a lot of people to get into sort of depressive state, depressive faith, right? Because we don't deal with things in the correct way. Now, I'm not saying people don't need help and they don't need, you know, of course they do, but what I'm saying is is that during that moment of solitude is when our worries and our sort of internal voice speaks to us, right? And it's kind of curious because it just it just comes out, right? And it's just like barraging us, and it's just ruh, you know, and it's all over the place, and the kids, you know, and my family and the wife and the job and my dad, and it just mangles all together, right? But the more you stick with it, the more you learn to quiet and control those moments. That's correct. And when you focus on something, for me personally, I have a I have a cross, and it's Jesus on the cross, and I focus on that. And every time some thought jumps into my mind, I refocus it. And so this this exercise, and I know I'm talking a lot here, but it this it's like every other muscle in your body, you have to practice it. Like this contemplative life, this leisure, you have to practice it. And Dr. Case was David, you were talking about it earlier. On average, we spend, on average, right, anywhere between three to four hours a day on our phone, and on top of that, another 2.5 hours watching television. So you're talking about anywhere between six to eight hours a day, just direct screen time. And then when you think about that amount of time, it's like, what does it really take you to spend five minutes contemplating the creation of God, contemplating the sacrifice of Jesus, contemplate you know, it's nothing, it's absolutely nothing. So, and the benefit is just so great. So if there's just I guess one thing I can sum it up is is I think a lot of people they take leisure of these contemplative sort of times as like, oh, I gotta go out. No, just start with one minute. Yeah, just one minute, and try that and see how you are gonna be more centered and more sort of controlled in your life. It's it really is it's impressive.
SPEAKER_10Oh, that's that's that's a great word. Yeah, there's a is a song that goes back. I remember hearing in college uh tis a gift to be simple. Yeah, tis a gift to be free was the name of it. And and and it was the the chorus was when true simplicity is gained, to bow and defend we will not be ashamed. To turn to turn will be our delight when we enter the valley of God's delight. There's a sense in which we're talking about entering into a bit of a more simple life. Yes. And and uh that that is itself a gift from God when we receive that. And it's it's it it it I love what Rudy says about this contemplation is a discipline that we learn. You start with a minute and then you go to two minutes, then you go to three minutes. Just like I don't go and and go to work out and pick up a hundred pounds immediately, right?
SPEAKER_04That's right.
SPEAKER_10That's gonna that's gonna kill me. You you you start with the lower weights and you make you work yourself up. Yep. Work your way up. We do that with our spiritual lives as well. And I would just encourage everybody to go outside. I would encourage everybody to spend more time with friends, good conversation. By all means, go to a movie, by all means uh go to a sports thing, you know, go see the rodeo. It's in town, right? By all means do those kinds of things. But don't use all of your free time. In go running from one thing to the next to the next one. To try to fill a void. That's exactly right. Yeah.
Why Are You Running Final Takeaways
SPEAKER_04I I just want to finish by telling you a s a quick story. There's there's a i it's it's interesting because there are stories that you remember for no good reason, except that the reason was that they showed you something about depth in your life. This happened to me many, many years ago. Um I was ordained maybe two years, and I remember on my day off, my day off was Thursday. And uh there's during the day on on a Thursday, there's not a lot to do. Everybody's at work and stuff like that. So I went to a coffee shop, and uh, reading the paper, I was reading books. I got there around uh nine o'clock in the morning at the coffee shop, and I had drunk a lot of coffee, read a lot of books, you know, and I was after after all of that, I was I was bored. I was tired of reading, I was tired, uh I was just tired. And I remember thinking, what am I gonna do now? There's nobody to go visit, there's nobody, nothing to do. And I said, Oh wow, I'll go to a movie. Okay, so I picked up this newspaper. In those days we didn't have the internet. Well, I picked up the newspaper and I started looking at the things, and there was not a single movie that I wanted to see. But then I said, Okay, I I just gotta go so I'm gonna go to any movie, the one that because I don't want that, there's nothing else to do. What am I gonna do? And so I picked a movie and I was gonna go there, and I still remember I was I went into my car and I started the car. And before I put the car in gear, I heard something inside of me say, Why are you running? Why are you running? And what are you running from? And the voice, which it was my own voice, but it was it didn't come from me. It made me feel awful because I was running. And so the voice said to me, just stay there. It was kind of winter, so it was not super hot. And so I turned off the car and I said, I'm not going anywhere until I really want to go somewhere. I sat in the car and I heard the next thing is it's okay to be alone. You're not gonna die. Let let's experience the pain of being alone. It's okay. I sat there for two and a half hours being alone. I still remember a crow landed on my car and we looked at each other for about 30 seconds. I'll never forget that crow.
SPEAKER_10Oh, cool.
SPEAKER_04I'll never forget that crow. So I I just sat there and it was okay to be alone. It was okay to hurt a little bit. It was okay to be a little afraid. And then it ended. And then I went on. So anyway, just it's practice. Be alone. Yeah. It's okay. It's creative solitude.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_10What strikes me is that uh and we got we gotta go. Yeah. Oh, darn it. Yeah. You would have never heard that voice if you had been moving somewhere.
SPEAKER_04That's exactly right. That's exactly right. This is ten seventy KMTH. Thank you for listening to us. During this week, please keep us in your prayers because you're gonna be in hours.