A Show of Faith
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A Show of Faith
Episode 181: The Scapegoat Mechanism
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A crowd in chaos will do almost anything to feel peace again, and sometimes that “peace” is bought at the cost of blaming one person. We start with Palm Sunday, the opening of Holy Week, and then follow René Girard’s big idea: mimetic desire. When we copy what others want, rivalry spreads, tensions rise, and groups can slide into the scapegoat mechanism where “unanimity minus one” feels like the only way out.
From a toy-grabbing toddler to the ancient Greek “pharmakos” ritual, we connect the dots between anthropology, psychology, and theology. The group brings the conversation into everyday life with stories of bullying, social media pile-ons, and the way modern politics and identity fights keep searching for a target. We also name what many listeners have seen firsthand: anti-Semitism showing up in unrelated spaces, turning ordinary posts into an excuse for hatred.
We then tackle the hardest territory carefully: the crucifixion as a classic scapegoating pattern, and the long history of misusing Passion language to scapegoat Jews. Along the way, we ask a question that won’t go away: if the West learned to honor victims through the Judeo-Christian moral imagination, why does victimhood now feel like a status some people chase for power and credibility?
Subscribe for more conversations on theology, philosophy, morality, and ethics, share this with someone who loves big ideas, and leave a review to help others find us. Where do you see scapegoating at work right now, and what would it take to interrupt it?
Opening Lyrics And Show Intro
SPEAKER_12There's something happening here. What it is ain't exactly clear. There's a man with a gun over there. Tellin' me I got to beware. I think it's time we stop, children. What's that sound? Everybody look what's going there. Nobody's right if everybody's wrong. Young people speak in their mind.
SPEAKER_03Welcome to a show of faith where professor, priest, millennial, and rabbi discuss theology, philosophy, morality, and ethics, and anything else of interest in religion. If you have any response to our topics or any comments regarding what we say, we'd love to hear from you. Email us at isshooffaith1070 at gmail.com and show of faith1070 at gmail.com. You can hear our shows again and again by listening pretty much everywhere podcasts are heard, and we know you just want to hear it so often, like five times a day. Our priest is Father Mario Arroyo, retired pastor of St. Cyril of Alexandria, the 10,000 block of Westheimer. Hello. Professor David Capes is our Protestant minister. He's the director of academic programming for the Lanier Theological Library. Rudy Cohn is our millennial. He's the systems engineer and has his master's degree in theology from the University of St. Thomas.
SPEAKER_14Howdy, howdy.
Tech Trouble And Holy Week Begins
SPEAKER_03Is David on? No.
SPEAKER_06How come?
SPEAKER_03I don't know. He c he says he can't get through. He called uh Rudy called in and he's in, but I don't know why David isn't in.
SPEAKER_06David just said he's going to try it again. The first two times it dropped me.
SPEAKER_03It dropped him okay.
SPEAKER_06Okay.
SPEAKER_03All right. Keep trying, David, if you're listening.
SPEAKER_06Uh Crystal, can you turn down just a little bit? Just a little bit. Our earphones are sometimes either. There you go. Perfect. Perfect.
unknownPush the button. Okay.
SPEAKER_06Now we can't. Oh here we are again.
SPEAKER_03Yes, welcome back.
SPEAKER_06Okay. Well, uh, today I am show director. Yes, you are. And uh today I've chosen a relative topic, but also a a topic that is Christian, so I hope you can join in. Hey, I I'll enjoy the night off. Well, it's Christian and non-Christian. It's the same thing. What I uh today for for um Catholics, I d I know specifically for Catholics, but I don't know about Protestants. Um protesters, I don't know.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_06Um anyway, I I sound really loud to myself. Uh not to me, it's oh man, I sound super loud to myself. But anyway, um today we we're celebrating the the beginning of Holy Week. And for us in the in the Catholic tradition, Holy Week begins with um okay, uh um did you get the uh um evidently David cannot get in at all.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_06Um he says he's tried several times and he cannot get in. He says, I've tried eight times, no cigar. Okay, well okay. Um so today we're gonna we begin Holy Week. And in Holy Week, the first day that begins Holy Week is the Sunday before Easter Sunday. And on Easter Sunday, I mean on on Passion what this is what's called Passion Sunday, or sometimes it's it's called um the uh oh God, I'm now I'm blanking out. It's Rudy, what's it uh the other name? No, no, no. Rudy.
SPEAKER_14Rudy. Yeah, so you're talking about you're talking about Palm Sunday.
SPEAKER_06Palm Sunday, that's what I was blanking out on. Palm Sunday, yeah. So anyway, uh what's the what we did today in the Catholic Church is every year, because remember we have four Gospels, and every year we we have we are we're on a three-year Sunday cycle. And every year um we read one of the passion stories of the first three gospels. So Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. The synoptics. Yeah, the synoptics. So right now we are um this is year A. And so year A always we go through the Gospel of Matthew.
unknownUh-huh.
SPEAKER_06And so, but then Gospel of John is used every single Good Friday every year. Uh and so we read that one every year, but once uh Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. And so this today was
Rene Girard And Scapegoating
SPEAKER_06Matthew. But what I wanted to do, I've been a a very um close follower of a theologian philosopher by the name of Rene Girard. And Rene Girard um is uh actually he was by training, um he passed away recently, as a matter of fact, a few years ago. By training, he was a teacher of French literature. And um what was interesting about him is as he was teaching French literature, he started noticing some things about uh uh all the stories. And then he started looking about uh novels uh even in English and in other languages and he noticed a pattern that the pattern was um uh uh the pattern was that he th that people would band together against some kind of a scapegoat. Now w the definition of a scapegoat is this. A scapegoat is someone blamed for problems they did not truly cause and they not only are blamed when they are the reason they're called scapegoat is because what happens is when you accuse them of stuff, you kind of uh drain the hostility from a group.
Mimetic Desire And Toddler Wars
SPEAKER_06So one of the things like for example, uh I I like to use is if you have a room with toys and you put a small toddler in the room with toys, just one to dun toddler, he will run around and kind of look at different toys and finally settle in on playing with one, even though there's many, many toys.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_06So what happens is though, you put a second toddler in. Now, the second toddler has a his choice of a lot of different toys. But do you know which one he's gonna go for?
SPEAKER_03The one the other kid has? That's right.
SPEAKER_06That's universal. The question is this why? And here's what Girard understood. Girard understood that uh human beings don't know what to desire because they can they can't evaluate everything. And so what this this happens at an unconscious level. The little toddler will go and he'll see that the first toddler is playing with some toy. And unconsciously, he will think, ah, he must be playing with that because that's the one that is most desirable. And so he will copy the desire, uh, the object of desire of the first toddler. And he'll go and try to take it away from him. Okay, and they'll then there'll be a small fight. Um but then if you introduce a third toddler into there or in a fourth, all of a sudden you have what's called Gerard called uh a crisis. Because everybody, if two are people, two kids are fighting over the same thing, the third kid's gonna think, oh man, that must be the most desirable because they're learning from each other. And so what happens is if you get a bunch of kids fighting it uh uh uh over something, you gotta resolve it. And sooner or later the way to resolve it will be that some quirky kid will come in and uh all the kids will churn on him. And uh in other words Why at this point? Well, at the at this at different points. Ultimately, when you have a problem, you ultimately try to settle the problem instead of the war of all against wall, th all against all. They will do what's called unanimity minus one.
SPEAKER_03Right. Right.
SPEAKER_06Okay?
SPEAKER_03We will join together by attacking the common the person we create into a common enemy.
SPEAKER_06That is correct, right? Okay. And I think you should know about that.
SPEAKER_03More a little bit, yes. And the reason why Especially in since the three years ago almost.
SPEAKER_06No, because the Jews.
SPEAKER_03Right. Well, with October 7th, that's correct. It's skyrocketed.
SPEAKER_06That the sc the Jews have often, as a people, been the one, the scapegoat.
SPEAKER_03The always the servant that suffers for God.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah. So the question that the the the issue then is um I'd like to discuss that, that dynamic. And this uh it's very interesting because if I let I have thought a few minutes. Um most of us you you may or may not have heard, our audience may or may not have heard that this is universal. Let me give you another example.
Pharmakos Ritual And Ancient Sacrifice
SPEAKER_06The whole idea of what is called the pharmacos.
SPEAKER_03Say it again?
SPEAKER_06Pharmacos. Have you ever heard of that?
SPEAKER_03Pharmacose?
SPEAKER_06Yes.
SPEAKER_03No.
SPEAKER_06Okay. I will explain it.
SPEAKER_03But this has to do with farming in the industry or no?
SPEAKER_06No, it has to do with pharmacy.
SPEAKER_03Pharmacy?
SPEAKER_06The etymology. Drugs? Yes. The etymology of the word pharmacy is actually pharmacose. And it's a Greek word. And the original pharma what this remember, the original pharmacy that's called that because it takes away poison. It takes away poison, in other words, it's it removes that that which is a malady. That's what far now in the ancient world, in the ancient world in Greek, instead of using the word scapegoat, they used the word pharmacose. And they would pick a person or a man or a woman. And they would be somebody who would be somewhat undesirable. But for a year they would fatten him up, and at the end of the year of easy living, they would drag him through the streets and everyone would throw things at them, they would spit on them, and they would ultimately either banish him into the desert to die of thirst, or they would they would kill him. And the the he was called the pharmacose. And the pharmacos was because they were sh casting all their sins, all their problems on this person.
SPEAKER_03Which is Leviticus 16, the actual original scapegoat. That's correct. But that but I'm so what are the what's the etymology though of pharmacose? Poison something?
SPEAKER_06No, is the one who takes away poison.
SPEAKER_03Takes away the poison, okay.
SPEAKER_06Takes away the poison. This is where we get the word pharmacy.
SPEAKER_03Of course.
SPEAKER_06Okay?
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_06And so the the whole idea of the f the pharmacose is is universal because it's caught known by different words. Like, for example, we'd use the word scapegoat. Okay? Or when when people across the world would do what they would call a sin offering. And they would kill an animal and they would offer him to the gods or to God and call as a reparation for their sins. And sometimes the pharmacose or the scapegoat is a person. Sometimes it's an animal. Okay?
SPEAKER_03Okay. In the Bible, the sacrifice has to be only for accidental, not on purpose sin.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, but I'm talking about I'm not talking about necessarily only the Jews, but just in general worldwide. Okay. Okay? It's kind of like uh um what Gerard finally understood was that, for example, mu a lot of people will have had the experience of getting together with somebody that you don't necessarily like or somebody that you don't know, and sooner or later you may find yourselves, you may find yourselves m realizing that you dislike either the same person or the same thing.
SPEAKER_03And all of a sudden you're united in my think about all- the group against the one. That's right.
SPEAKER_06Think about, for example, when is a country um most united, like we during World War II, we were already united against the Japanese and the Germans, right. Now, obviously, right now we have different things going on, but the the what's called the whole idea of picking somebody and making sure that they are uh blamed for for what's happening. Okay, so that is what I wanted to discuss is if you've uh if any of you you and Rudy, you and Rudy have had any experiences of that, and then I'm gonna bring it over to a little bit to the whole idea of the the whole experience of Jesus and at his trial.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_06Okay, so anything Rudy, anything from you?
SPEAKER_14Experience as far and I know we have to go to break here in a minute, but I think um as far as being a when I first moved to the United States, um I I was picked on quite a bit. Um and I did feel that there was many times where there was this kind of mob mentality against me.
unknownYep.
SPEAKER_06Rudy, why don't you hold that? Uh oh let hold it. I want to continue with you, but I didn't realize we were so close to the break. So I want to come back to you immediately when we come back to the break. This is 1070K NTH, and we'll be right back.
SPEAKER_09Kevin McCullough will always go an extra layer deep. How do we live in a culture that hates God? Actually, that's that may be an overstatement. They may manipulate God, but then you attach God, the concept of God, to the Bible, and that's where the real problem is, because the Bible tells us what God's heart is. How do we live in a culture that despises those two things and then kind of looks at us as like the cross-eyed cousin because we we claim an allegiance to those things? Kevin Joe.
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Bullying Stories And Biblical Reversal
SPEAKER_06Yes. Um go ahead, Rudy, you were talking.
SPEAKER_14Yeah, I I think I've experienced or have been a I don't want to say the word victim, right? But as a sort of receiver of the scapegoating, I've definitely felt that kind of mob mentality against me, especially as as a young boy. I think we can be I'm kind of remember reminded of I don't know if you guys ever read um Lord of the Fly.
SPEAKER_06Yes.
SPEAKER_14Um it's just um there's a movie too that was that was pretty good. Um there's definitely like this this kind of thing of being part of something um that gives you maybe an identity where you can relate to something, um something that's not you that helps part of you, that point the attention away from you and from your defense and from your sort of um, if you will. Um yeah, I think I I think definitely with that you can also I think I have participated maybe what we would think these days is like bullying, right? I mean I think bullying, especially when we're just kind of younger. Um I think to your point what you were saying is if somebody comes into the picture that it may be different, that speaks a different language, and maybe has a different accent, or has a maybe a disability, right? And and it's just a little different, and then that becomes kind of the center point of this kind of group mentality to kind of detrive, right? So it's uh it's kind of an interesting sort of phenomenon, right, culturally that develops within within our society, right? Because I think that's one of the things Renee Girard was arguing is that is that when we find an authentic meaning to that mimetic desire, then we can point it to the right into the right space, right? But without that, then we're just kind of left picking at each other's bones, right?
SPEAKER_06Right. It it's interesting, uh Stuart, mainly because of this, Renee Girard says that the Bible specifically deconstructs the pist the system. Especially because the you see, the whole way that the p system works, the the system of of uh scapegoating, is when scapegoating.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_06Okay. When you can find that the scapegoat is guilty. That's what makes you feel good. You feel good.
SPEAKER_03Right. You convince yourself that the scapegoat actually did something to deserve what you're doing to it.
SPEAKER_06That's right.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_06And he Sir Sherard says that the revelation of the Bible is that the Bible totally turns that upside down. And the old Old Testament, too. That the Bible is constantly on the side of the victim, and it deconstructs the blame that is laid on the victim. Do you find that in the Old Testament?
SPEAKER_03I'm not quite sure what you mean by it, because it the the the Bible starts out with the idea that the animals are in fact innocent.
SPEAKER_06It's not No here's the point. The whole idea, yep, that that's the point. But for example, when David was thrown into the uh no, Daniel Lines den or the the uh the the the kid who was thrown into the well by his brothers. Oh, Joseph. Joseph, okay. Notice that Joseph is the youngest, and he is the victim, and his brothers try to get rid of him, but the victim ends up on top.
SPEAKER_03Oh, the reversal.
SPEAKER_06The reversal. Okay. That's what happens.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_06The reversal is all that the Bible itself turns the the victim into the innocent one.
SPEAKER_03Right, but it's n it's not necessarily the victim. Sometimes it's the youngest over the oldest.
SPEAKER_06No, no, what I'm saying is that the that the the the the actual blaming of somebody that the group that the the Right, like the brothers who throw him in the in the well end up being the guilty ones.
SPEAKER_03You're right, right.
SPEAKER_06That's right. And so what happens is that i even in the psalms, the psalms justify the person who's being oppressed. Okay? It's and the general probably because the one writing them was the oppressed. Okay, but human the the human condition usually wants to have the the rest of the society be the ones who are killing or getting rid of the guilty one.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_06And the true the revelation of the Bible is the exact that it does, it it turns it on its head.
SPEAKER_03As you well know, we're heading into Passover.
SPEAKER_06Yes.
SPEAKER_03And the same thing happened with the Hebrew slaves. They've got freedom.
SPEAKER_06That's right.
SPEAKER_03So however they were treated gets reversed.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, because and and and God, it's it's interesting because Gerard said if you look at the Bible, the Bible is all is always on the side of the weak.
SPEAKER_03The weak, the victim of the under the underdog.
SPEAKER_06And in the ancient world, the Jewish people and the relationship with God is the exact opposite. In other words, the that that the pagans were the ones who were saying, We're right, we're right, we're right, and the oppressors were being oppressed because they deserved it. Right. Okay.
SPEAKER_14what happens is yeah just sorry just real quick it's it's interesting because when when the first revelation happened to to the Jews and potentially God was thinking about this God flipped the entire narrative right and this is kind of what I think you were you were trying to get to is yeah for a lot of human history anthropologically we have been sort of focused on the power dynamic and trying to live longer and trying to sort of gain and here you have the story because it's not just I think about Jove and I think about Jonas right and and um and and all these kind of characters the different I mean they they come from from the very kind of when you think of David too he comes from the the the youngest king kind of becomes to become the king of this kind of great nation too and it's just it's just it's just more detectively I think to the power of God to turn something on its head right so maybe so something so fundamentally human maybe uh ill driven right but you can use it for for for his greater glory.
SPEAKER_06I don't know if that would make any sense or like it's uh where are you really yeah what are you where are you where are you okay oh guys I heard something in the background yeah okay I'm in my apartment well either way we're we're so close to the break so why don't we this is 1070 Candy H we're gonna go to a break and we'll be right back.
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Social Media Pile-Ons And Anti-Semitism
SPEAKER_06Oh yes wait a minute Mr Bowman wait wait hey hey hey Mr Bowman Welcome back to a show of faith on name 107 the answer okay one of the things that just to help people bring bring it up I mean understand a little better for example modern examples social media how many kids have been uh even I mean you see it on the news people committing suicide because somebody has picked on them so much that they can't right that they they can they can't that's a t a a typical one they're bullied the bullying on social media is and people piling on that's that that's what Girard is talking about. He's also talking about family conflicts or competition okay that you usually you resolve the issue right by comp by blaming somebody okay now the core idea of the score of sc uh this let's call it the scapegoat scapegoating mechanism is this when conflict spreads in a group tension builds chaos threatens the unity of the community and so what they do is the group unconsciously blames one person or one group and when they blame one person or one group they expel and punish them and this temporarily restores some sort of peace to the group that's the whole notion of what Girard is talking about. Right okay so we see that in our in our s in our society all the time. Boy do we now yeah give m talk a little bit about where you why you say that.
SPEAKER_03Mario just today there's a member of the congregation who has had a incredibly good friend and I must tell you I have mixed feelings about their response but their stepdad has come out with just the most vile, hateful anti-Semitic stuff I'm being nice, we're on the air like I've never seen before. They showed me a picture of it you know it it's just vile there's no other way to put it and that kind of thing is more and more and more often I've seen I've seen people where they'll make a comment on Facebook about good cell phones and they'll show a picture of their cell phone and they will happen to be wearing a Star of David and the comments have nothing to do with the topic nothing to do with the cell phone nothing they center in on the person being a Jew and they come out with this you know you're Satan you're the devil you're murderers you're you've you're everywhere you go it's just it's unbelievable. It is like where in the world did this come from but if you take a look at the past 20 30 years no that's too long 10 to 20 years and the rising discontent of the culture in which we live and how everything is bad and how everything becomes divided okay and it's all identity and it's not who you are it's what you are and the m greater and greater and greater hostility between pick a group between Republicans and Democrats conservatives and liberals blacks and whites and I just every single place you go there's animosity and they're looking for a scapegoat.
SPEAKER_06That's correct. And that's what happens in a in a group and that is specifically where um Judaism and Christianity put but take Judaism and Christianity deconstructs that. Especially in now I'm gonna get into something Christian.
Jesus Under Rome And Scapegoating
SPEAKER_03Yeah because and I want you to understand I I wouldn't expect or want anything else from you.
SPEAKER_06No but but I want you to understand that the cruci I'm gonna be talking about the crucifixion of Jesus. Right but the crucifixion of Jesus was not done by the Jews.
SPEAKER_03No.
SPEAKER_06It was done by the group that was there.
SPEAKER_03It was done by the Romans the Romans because they what was the thing called that was placed above Jesus's head King of the Jews. No no but what was that sign called?
SPEAKER_06I don't know.
SPEAKER_03It's in the New Testament it explicitly calls it the accusation.
SPEAKER_06Yes.
SPEAKER_03Why was it an accusation and why was it an accusation of Rome? Because if you think this is your king instead of the emperor in Rome, this is what's going to happen to your king and this is what's going to happen to you. Yep. So it's a it and and we know that crucifixion was not stoning stoning is the Jewish death penalty the uh uh crucifixion was the Roman version was the Roman version for the people who what for the uh the lowest of the low because if you were a Roman Well no according to Rom uh Tacitus Josephus and Philo crucifixion was reserved for insurrectionists now and slaves if you were a Roman citizen you would be beheaded if you were a a slave that was uppity or you did anything like that.
SPEAKER_06Right rebellion any kind of rebellion that's right that's right but what happens is with Judaism and Christianity is that and the this starts right in the Old Testament and it goes right through the New Testament that the victim is blamed and but but God comes to the socky which is what Rudy was talking about.
SPEAKER_03It's a vindication for God.
SPEAKER_06Yeah it's it's interesting because that's the crucifixion is part of that if that's how how we mirrard understands it he says that human violence is collective and contagious it's interesting say that again the human say it again Girard says human violence is contagious human violence is contag contagious collective and contagious okay contagious society often builds unity by a false accusation and we justify violence by calling it justice. Right okay and so the the the whole point here is that w in the re in in the crucifixion the Jesus is causing tension with the the public at that time okay and they get him by by they they put Barabbas there and they also put Jesus there and the crowd chooses to let go of Barabbas.
SPEAKER_03And I I understand that's your story. Okay that's that's okay I understand that that's how it's portrayed and people will accept it as factual but the idea of the Jewish community that does not believe we inherit guilt from someone else's sin making a statement our basically our sin will be on the children our heads of our children is but that's not what the Catholic Church does not stay highly unlikely to have ever have happened. Well I'm not I didn't mention that I'm I'm saying that that whole scenario of Pontius Pilate who in Tacitus and Josephus is pulled back to Rome because of his viciousness and bloodthirst saying I wash my hands of this the whole thing is uh has some interesting characteristics to it.
SPEAKER_06Okay. Well the the whole point is that Jesus is condemned and he he's can he's condemned he's crucified I don't think you can deny Jesus was crucified or are you going to deny that no I'm not going to deny that historically it's correct.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_06Because I think you're making this into a into a the fact that I'm trying to blame the Jews and I'm not no I know that but all listeners might be ah it's interesting because then the whole point is that we can't the Christian can't talk about the story unless we blame the Jews. Is that what you're saying?
SPEAKER_03I'm saying that if they take a look at their New Testament and the way the whole thing was portrayed they might quite easily come to that conclusion.
SPEAKER_06Trevor Burrus Okay. So then it's almost impossible to talk with you then about that goes like anything else.
SPEAKER_03We're going to disagree and I'm right. But ultimately the no I don't know but the image of the uh of the uh scapegoat is still valid it's still absolutely there yes but you would disagree with applying it to Jesus no I'm saying no it taking the story as it's written absolutely it would apply to Jesus but you don't believe that the story as it's written is valid? Correct. Okay that's where you and I would disagree that well obviously that's what makes you a Catholic in me a Jew it's what makes you a Christian in me a Jew.
SPEAKER_06No what's what's interesting is that I don't I would not say that. I would say see from my perspective the story can be valid without being anti-Semitic the story can be valid by group by saying that the the Jews the Jews or the people who were there were human and they represented the human race not the Jewish people and while all I'm saying you are interpreting the problem out of existence.
SPEAKER_03You are you saying that they don't interpret you know they represent that and that's fine. That's fine.
SPEAKER_06The problem is that you are already yeah you are you are basically blaming no I agree with you it can be open in to an anti-Semitic interpretation and ext extremely open to that. Right well history bears that out of the deocide Rene Girard is is basically saying I'm I'm talking about from Rene Girard's point of interview that what he is saying is that the Jews weren't whoever was there as screaming crucify him all that he would they were doing is acting as human beings.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_06Right I no I understand that okay but they were they were specifically following the process of scapegoating that's right right that's right I I understand that yeah so but I didn't I th I didn't know that if you were even open to accepting that.
SPEAKER_03Oh I no I think that follows the pattern absolutely that's what I'm saying. Okay. But there are certain parts of the of the story that can be misused I would agree. Yes not only that not can be not only can they be misused have been misused and as a part of later scapegoating than the year 33.
SPEAKER_14Yes right correct Rudy you want to get into this yeah I I again I understand Raba you wouldn't be a real Jew if you didn't think that right that's what I was saying earlier.
SPEAKER_03That's what makes you a Catholic and me a Jew. It's what makes you a Christian and me a Jew. We will forever disag and have already and will continue to be disagreeing on that.
SPEAKER_14Yeah so when when it comes to let's let's call like the the kind of deeper anthropological pattern though I think the the main thing is in across history if you look at Mesopotamia and and even before that like you were mentioning for the with the Greeks there's this notion of a crisis right where it could be a chaos of rain or whatever right and then culturally they need to make sense of this and in order to make sense of it there needs to be a sort of a transfer of this and then with that transfer must have an extension of some sort of an elimination if you will for a or a for a clean right depending on which sort of historical group you look at and then a sort of temporary feature until the next thing right because we know that historically more and more crises have happened and even going into the future more and more crisis will happen.
SPEAKER_06I think and I think that's sort of your point is if you look at the situation you know whether you think it's real or not I mean if you take the story for what it is there's a clear crisis happening in that situation right and then that group of people is clearly trying to try to assign and expose that individual right the entire power dynamics that were happening in that period of time especially with the Roman government right and and well that's I think Rabbi you're absolutely right I think a lot of people don't oh I agree but the look you know the other part that I was gonna like to bring up and I and after we come back from the break I want to go into the whole idea of why is it that today everybody wants to be a victim because because everybody does want to be but that that's they want to be a victim but why why yeah because so the whole no I the other thing I wanted to bring up look at the Colosseum why did the Romans why did the Romans build the Colosseum and why they would have gladiators and what they why they would execute Christians and why they would do that because it would release the the the bloodthirst the bloodthirst and they they would when Christians started to be persecuted by Rome Rome they were doing that because it was a convenient that's why Nero was able to blame the Christians for the burning down of Rome because he probably did it himself but he was a burning down of Rome. He handed the people the scapegoat the scapegoat so that the what I want all of us to understand is that the scapegoating mechanism the what the Bible does including New Testament and Old Testament the Bible deconstructs that and says the victim is innocent.
SPEAKER_03The victim is innocent and will come out on top later.
SPEAKER_06That's right because that ultimately will come out on top ultimately that's what we as Christians would believe is the resurrection that God is on the side of the victims. Okay? This is 1070K and we'll be right back.
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SPEAKER_07Mike Gallagher tries to keep it civil is this battle about Israel and that's what it seems to be about representative of what's going on within the Republican Party sort of writ large? That's another tricky part of this I don't know the answer to that. I would like to think that every one of these podcasters who are currently at war with each other are on the same team.
SPEAKER_05The Mike Gallagher Show weekday mornings at 8 on AM 1070 and FM 1033 the answer lack of food I win stay too long is this sign still delivered on I'm yours yes welcome back to a show of faith on am 107 the answer now here's what the the the last 10 minutes I want to I want to present this this um situation.
Victimhood As Modern Moral Status
SPEAKER_03What has changed in history and you're gonna give your answer in our case well the the question is why are people wanting so badly to be a victim?
SPEAKER_06That's correct.
SPEAKER_03And I think our society has given advantages to victimhood why why why here I'm not sure I have an answer.
SPEAKER_06Here give me a see I do. Now you might not like my answer. Yes okay the world itself has been Christianized to a large degree. Okay okay center the center of the of the Christian tradition is that Jesus was the victim. Okay and when the victim Is seen as the innocent one, he reveals that the crowd is guilty.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_06Okay. So what Christianity has done is that when anybody is being victimized, the Christianity has has to be Oh, teaches them that they're right.
SPEAKER_03The victim is correct.
SPEAKER_06That's correct.
SPEAKER_03That's brilliant.
SPEAKER_06That's right.
SPEAKER_03That's excellent. That makes a lot of sense.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. And that is ultimate because if Christianity had not whether you believe in it or not or not.
SPEAKER_03Right, right. The effect of it is still rampant.
SPEAKER_06It's rampant. It's cute.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_06Because in the ancient world, the Roman Emperor, if you would have gone before the Roman Emperor and said, I'm a victim, he would say, Yes, and we like it.
SPEAKER_03Yes, we like your victimization.
SPEAKER_06We will look, we will put you in a circus and people will applaud as you are too being torn to pieces because we like that.
SPEAKER_03As you're being a victim.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, that's right. So the question is, what changed over a 2,000 year period? Why is it, for example, that in the ancient world there was no such thing as human rights? And the Christian tradition says it's because of the Jews, because the revelation beginning with the Jews that says all men are created equal.
SPEAKER_03Right. Right. Right? Which I that there's a morality and ethics God demands from God's creation.
SPEAKER_06Which I always I always maintain that I, you know, I'm a naturalized citizen of the United States, and I love being an American. But there's one little part that that I always f forget. I mean not forget, that I always question. When the Declaration says we hold these truths to be self-evident, they're not.
SPEAKER_03They're not.
SPEAKER_06They're not.
SPEAKER_03No. You don't have to have religion to teach it.
SPEAKER_06You that's right. You cannot it's interesting that they called it self-evident because they were living in a Judeo-Christian bubble. And they're living as a presumed that the Judeo-Christian revelation is is actually the whole water in the fish tank.
SPEAKER_03The what?
SPEAKER_06Well, here's the water in the fish tank. In other words, it's in in it's I'm using an anal an image. Imagine two fish in a fish tank. Oh, okay. Two fish in a fish tank. Right. And they think that the water i it the it is is normal. It isn't. Everywhere because they have no other experience.
SPEAKER_02Right, exactly.
SPEAKER_06Okay, that's where our a our forefathers thought that it's that it's normal that all men are created equal and they are endowed by their creator.
SPEAKER_03And it's because that's all they saw.
SPEAKER_06That's all they saw. That's all they saw. Rudy, you want to add anything?
SPEAKER_14I think you I think you're exactly right. So when we when let's say the Judeo-Christian tradition introduces this moral equivocal across all cultures, right, and it says all people are created in the image and likeness of God. Great. And so here comes the enlightenment. Here comes this kind of uh this this movement, right, to kind of re-evaluate moral structures. And what we find is is I think that within this kind of scapegoating or victimhood mentality, we've kind of created this culture where if you are a victim, then somehow you carry some sort of moral authority.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, you carry the the victim you victimhood is now a privilege. Right. That's what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_03It gives you privileges for being the victim. But you but your point is that it gives them the ability to pat themselves on the back and say, I'm the good person, everybody else is the bad person because they're victimizing.
SPEAKER_06That's right. And and and but what turned history upside down, where in the ancient world the victimizers were correct, and the victim was guilty. But the whole Judeo-Christian tradition reverses it. Has reversed it. And that's why today everybody wants to be a victim. Right. Right. Would you agree? Would you agree with that, Doriti?
SPEAKER_14Yeah, yeah, I think so. And then I think the more that we try to extract our traditions, our especially biblical traditions from our culture, the more we're going to continue falling into this trap. And it's why we find ourselves in such a sort of dire predicament. Predicament, because it's we keep assigning these priorities or or or credibilities to guide our cultural sort of compass to these people that in reality, you know, whether maybe they really are victims too, right? So it's not to say whether they really are or are not. The the issue here is to what point do they get to to judge and make claims about moral um things that are happening culturally and then make uh broad statements like canceling particular people or particular historians or you know, it's it's it's just there's kind of no end to this, you know, and I think it's it's that's kind of the problem is is where does it stop? And it doesn't.
SPEAKER_06I I find it interesting because the whole issue of the Jews being uh oppressed and God is uh in oppressed in in Egypt, and God is on the side of the victim and he takes them out.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_06And and it's interesting because Pharaoh is considered the oppressor.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_06And and but in and even in ancient Rome, when the Roman generals would come back from their conquests, they would be hailed by about how many people they killed.
SPEAKER_03Right, the conquering heroes.
SPEAKER_06That's right. And today, if you go into a war and you start killing a lot of people, that's yeah, it it's not a good thing.
SPEAKER_03You're not considered a hero by how many you kill.
SPEAKER_06As a matter of fact, and that's been totally turned upside down.
SPEAKER_03Good.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, it has to be. And I'm saying that what Gerard understood was that in the Jewish, the Judeo-Christian tradition is what has turned that upside down in the entire world.
SPEAKER_03And again, anything can be corrupted, and it's corrupted into I want to be a victim.
SPEAKER_06That's correct.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_06And everybody wants to be a victim.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_06That's why you go to court court.
SPEAKER_03That's why what?
SPEAKER_06You go to court to show that you have been victimized. If you would have been gone gone to a court in the ancient world and said you were a victim.
SPEAKER_03Right, but nowadays we go to court because something pulls us into it.
SPEAKER_06No, but sometimes you sue people because you've been victimized. That's what suing is all about.
SPEAKER_03Yes, I'm the victim, so I can sue. And we are even when you're not the victim, but you think you are.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, we we're in a very litigious society. Why? Because people have found out that there's value in being a victim. Right. And so you you sue people to try and prove that you've been victimized.
SPEAKER_03So that you can pat yourself on the back and say it's the rest of the world that's wrong. That's right. That's bad or evil. That's right.
SPEAKER_06Rudy, you want to say something?
SPEAKER_14Yeah, I think it's um it's uh it's quite clear that we need more God in our culture more than ever to give meaning to our authentic suffering, if that makes any sense, because it's through God and through those interpretations that we find, just like Joe, right, that we may not understand all the answers, um, but we know that there's a higher transcendent thing working out there. And I think I think without that, it's just it's just a disaster. And we make our own values and we turn over our decision making more institutes, if you will, on people that have suffered maybe a lot of traumas and maybe aren't even in the right state to be making these types of kind of moral presumptions, right? Especially when it's sort of um how do I say like uh like sought out, you know, like or or um I don't know, like this this kind of thing where it's like this unearned glory. And I think of like veterans, right? These people that dress up as veterans and they go out and then they get beat up, and then they say, Well, you know, I was beat up, and it's like, well, you're dressing up as a veteran, then you're not a veteran, you know, and it's just like you're not stolen honor. You're trying to take yeah, stolen values. I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, so it's just I like that stolen wacky world. Stolen honor.
SPEAKER_03Stolen honor, because that's what it is.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Right. Okay. How do you reverse it? I don't how do you set the in the other direction where people are no longer getting what they want to get out of being a victim so that people won't be a victim anymore?
SPEAKER_06I think it may be used so overused so much sometimes.
SPEAKER_03You you what?
SPEAKER_06I think it may be overused so much that sometimes people are just getting sick.
SPEAKER_03But if it still gets people the advantages they're looking for, they're gonna continue to say I'm a victim. They're gonna want to be a victim.
SPEAKER_06That's correct. That's correct.
SPEAKER_03And everybody wants to feel like they are validated, and everybody else then becomes the bad guy. That's correct. So how do you reverse that?
SPEAKER_06I don't know.
SPEAKER_03I don't know either.
SPEAKER_06I don't know. But listen, if you have that's a topic for next week.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I'm the show director, but I still have no idea what we're gonna do. Well and it's Easter.
SPEAKER_06So Yeah, it's Easter, so we're gonna have a best of, I think.
SPEAKER_03And what?
SPEAKER_06We're gonna have a best of.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yes, you're right. We said we would do that. Yeah. It's a best of next week, right?
Book Recommendation And Holy Week Closing
SPEAKER_06If you are interested in the topic that we've been discussing, um I I would like to recommend a book to you. Uh it's called The Air We Breathe. The Air We Breathe. The subtitle is How We All Came to Believe in Freedom, Kindness, Progress, and Equality.
SPEAKER_03Who's it by?
SPEAKER_06Glenn Scrivner. S-C-R-I-V-E-N-E-R. Scrivener. Okay. Glenn Scrivener.
SPEAKER_03The air we breathe.
SPEAKER_06The air we excellent book. Easy reading, and it's excellent. All I need is the air that we breathe and to love. Well, thank you for listening here to the show of faith tonight. Uh tonight. Please keep us in your prayers during this week, this holy week, because you are going to be in ours.
SPEAKER_03A happy north time,