Holly's Highlights
Holly’s Highlights Podcast is an inspiring and practical podcast designed to equip and encourage listeners in their personal and professional growth. Hosted by speaker, author, and mentor Holly Curby, each episode features insightful conversations on leadership, faith, business, relationships, and personal development. Whether you're seeking motivation, strategies for success, or faith-based encouragement, Holly’s Highlights offers valuable takeaways to help you thrive. Tune in for engaging interviews, expert advice, and real-life stories that empower you to make a positive impact in your life and community. Available on all major podcast platforms!
Holly's Highlights
Leading Through Cynicism: Building Trust and Resilience with Hywel Berry
Unlock the secrets to effective leadership in today's ever-changing work landscape with insights from Hywel Berry, a seasoned expert in leadership transformation for global brands. You'll discover the strategies to navigate blurred work-life boundaries and build a resilient workplace culture.
Learn how embracing "empathetic cynicism" can foster open communication and collaboration, even when initial resistance is present. We'll discuss the vital role of reliability and consistency in establishing trust and how leaders can remain supportive, especially when team members aren't meeting expectations. Hywel shares invaluable lessons from his work with major corporations, underscoring the significance of authenticity and individualized leadership styles.
Lastly, we delve into the complexities of leadership development and mentorship, emphasizing the necessity of honest communication. Uncover the nuances of guiding team members through both internal promotions and external career opportunities, supporting their growth in a transparent manner. The conversation also touches on adapting to modern workplace challenges, from AI's impact on job security to managing emotional responses to change. By the end, you'll be equipped with the tools to help others navigate transitions with empathy and adaptability, creating a work culture that thrives amidst constant evolution.
This episode emphasizes the importance of leadership dynamics in creating positive workplace cultures and employee engagement including:
• Discusses the impact of leadership on workplace culture
• Shares strategies for overcoming employee resistance
• Highlights the importance of empathy in leadership
• Offers tips for managing remote teams effectively
• Explores the role of leaders in employee development and engagement
• Addresses navigating change within organizations
• Encourages leaders to be authentic in their leadership style
Connect with Hywel:
https://www.hywelberry.com
hywel@alicornlearning.com
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Visit www.hollycurby.com for more information and to sign up for the monthly Holly's Happenings e-newsletter. Holly's Highlights podcast and the opinions and ideas shared within it are for entertainment purposes only. The advice should be confirmed with a qualified professional.
Hi, friend, welcome to Holly's Highlights, a podcast designed to encourage, inspire and equip you to intentionally live your life full of purpose. I'm your host, holly Kirby, motivational speaker, leadership cultivator, marketing strategist and personal cheerleader. Let's check out today's highlights. With a new year brings new opportunities. That's right. This is where I could use your help, my friends. Would you please take a moment to do one or all of the following in hopes of helping me reach some goals this new year? First, subscribe to this very podcast, holly's Highlights Podcast. Even write and review the podcast where you're able, such as Apple Podcasts, and, of course, share with friends, family, coworkers or even through a post or shout out on your own platforms. Second, join my monthly email Holly's happenings by visiting wwwhollykirbycom. Third, follow me on Facebook at Holly's highlights, and or on Instagram at Holly Kirby. And lastly, rate and review my book facelift on Amazon and, if you have time, on Target, walmart and Barnes Noble websites. I can't thank you enough for your support and encouragement in such ways. Happy New Year's, my friends.
Speaker 1:The other day, I was at my local grocery store when the manager came over and said some very kind compliments as she walked away. I mentioned to the grocery clerk that I really enjoy my interactions with this manager. The clerk proceeded to telling me that this manager was fairly new due to a manager who had come in prior to her. Well, she, long story short, had a huge turnover of staff who wasn't too fond of this previous manager. Well, in training and developing leaders for over 20 years, I fully believe a leader, manager, whatever you want to call them, makes or breaks not only the culture of an organization, but can actually impact performance and retention and even the reputation of an organization. As the saying goes, people don't leave jobs, they leave managers or leaders. So today we have with us an expert specializing in transforming leadership and team dynamics for global brands like Nike, coca-cola and Tiffany Company Howell Berry. His mission is to create adult-centered, real-world learning experiences that win over even the most reluctant participants. Welcome, howell.
Speaker 2:Hello Holly, how are you?
Speaker 1:Wonderful. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 2:It's an absolute joy. Thank you for having me here.
Speaker 1:Oh, our pleasure Now. According to research by Gettysburg College, one third of our life is spent at work, so it's understandable that, whether it be a new manager or a current manager, bosses of any title can really impact the work environment. So perhaps we can start at what many may encounter throughout their life, whether as a leader or as an employee. What are some reasons that people are resistant to their leaders?
Speaker 2:Thank you. It's an interesting question for all of us because actually, let's be honest, holly, in the last few years since COVID, it's probably more than a third, isn't it we are now engaged in work in some way. That separation of work and home for many of us changed over that time. So the effect that our leader has on us, yeah, is even greater, and you mentioned it. But of course, what all the studies show is, yeah, people stay at jobs for leaders and they leave jobs because of leaders, and sometimes you can tangibly say why.
Speaker 2:But sometimes it's very difficult for both sides to express what the problem is. It's not always like they're a nightmare leader that everybody doesn't get on with. So actually it's very challenging on both sides. As an employee, you think maybe there's something wrong with you if other people find the leader positive. And as a leader, having been there myself, it's incredibly difficult when you can't win over a team member. You hired them, you want to be a positive impact on their life and yet, for whatever reason, it just doesn't click on their life. And yet, for whatever reason, it just doesn't click. So my numbers, holly, don't know what yours are, but over the time of my main corporate life.
Speaker 2:I hired about 60 people. Of that 60, I would say 40 of them had a genuinely positive experience with me as their manager. I would say 15 had an okay experience. They didn't hate me, it didn't affect their life negatively, but they could have changed managers and it wouldn't have been a great heave-ho. And five honestly just didn't like working for me and I don't think their life was a horrible nightmare. But for whatever reason we just didn't click and I tried as hard as I could and sometimes I changed the relationship a bit, but sometimes it just wasn't going to happen. So you've simply got to make the best of where we are, which is we've got a job to do and that's fine. We don't have to be best friends, but when you feel you're negatively affecting someone at work, it's really really difficult for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and to back up slightly of how you were saying, since COVID we spend more time at work. That makes sense. I feel like it's just me sometimes where I feel like my life is fully integrated with work, to where there's not a nine to five and then you clock out and it's just work. I feel it truly is my life and my both personal life and work life just mesh and I'm not really sure anymore sometimes when I'm on and when I'm off for either one. So I definitely agree, it's more than that one third and, yes, hitting. I like how you pointed out the personalization of how you connect with some, don't with others, and we're not going to be everyone's cup of tea, right.
Speaker 1:But as a leader, we can get to a point where we just kind of feel like we're banging our head against the wall, right, like we've tried every aspect of trying to help them, pour into them intentionally, teach them, grow them, be nice to them, whatever we can do so for leaders who find themselves constantly battling resistance from team members, how can they be more effective as a leader without losing their sanity?
Speaker 2:Well. So again, let's be as positive about this as we can. It is a work relationship. We're not friends, we are not family. We don't have to hang out, we don't have to get on in that way. What we need to provide is an environment where we are creating a space where they can do their job as well as possible, and if that's happening, then those little extras that make it a joy are nice, but not necessarily required, but either for the employee or the leader. If, for whatever reason, it is challenging to be the best at your role, then no, we do have something more that we can deliberately do here. And this doesn't fall entirely on the leader, of course, but, like in a parent-child relationship, I think you have a greater responsibility to try and make this work. It's not on the child, it's on the parent. You chose it. Let's make it yours. As the more senior person, I think it's your job. So let's also be honest.
Speaker 2:When we don't work well with a manager, we can sometimes exacerbate it a bit, almost deliberately, as an employee. We don't like them, we don't want to see them succeed, so we throw little spanners in the works to cause problems every so often. So my very first job, holly, I was an actor when I was a kid. You can find me online and it's very interesting as an actor, because you just turn up for two days, get paid well and then leave. That's it. No one looks after you, nobody cares. So my first real job was in sales for a magazine company and I loved my first manager. We had a fantastic relationship and then they brought in somebody new and within 20 minutes, holly, I just knew we were not going to work well together and looking back now, I did everything I could to try and make sure that that was absolutely true. I wanted to fulfill my theory in my head, as it were, and he didn't do very much to fix it. But what could he have done more?
Speaker 2:One of the things I'm going to throw out is a theory I love for leaders, which is be your own cynic. Try and see this from the employee's point of view. What's the most negative, worrisome, fearsome thing that they could be thinking? Because what we think, of course, is I'm a lovely leader and I care and I'm good at this. Why can't they see that? But actually, let's try and see it from their side. Maybe they did have a great relationship with their old leader. Maybe they have challenges outside. Maybe they did have a great relationship with their old leader. Maybe they have challenges outside. Maybe they were not performing as well as they want to already and this is just making it difficult.
Speaker 2:So, sitting down with each of your employees but definitely someone who there's a bit of a challenge there and voicing yourself that you can see what they might be worried about, I can see with a new leader this might be a challenge, or we are quite different people. I can see that the way I work might be more difficult for you. Saying it out loud means A that the other person can see that you are not blind to their challenges. You do understand them a little bit. But also it just makes it more harder to be cynical.
Speaker 2:If you're saying what I'm thinking, I can't really use it as a weapon against you. All I can really think is yes, that is what I'm feeling. I still don't like you very much, but you do seem to understand where I'm coming from. So you've taken away a lot of that clash, whereas if you just keep speaking to them like they're missing something, if you just got on board, everything would be fantastic. What's your problem? You're giving that employee everything they need to just go. This person doesn't get me. It's going to fail. I knew it was, and then we can watch it fail deliberately.
Speaker 1:Those are good. Those are good, and it sounds like those can be the biggest mistakes that leaders tend to make when navigating the challenges that you were mentioning of leading a team. Is that right?
Speaker 2:I think so Because when you come in as a leader let's say we come in externally or even promoted from a different group you've got so much pressure on you as a leader. You want to make a good impression, you want to get things up and running very quickly, you want everyone on the team to see the positives in you and we don't wake up in the morning thinking let's list out all the things people will hate about me today. That's not how our brains work. So it's genuinely surprising to us when somebody doesn't like us or doesn't seem to work well for us or finds our leadership challenging. For most of us we're just flummoxed as to why. What's the problem here? But if we be our own cynic, we can get that person talking, and what I'd really encourage them is to speak to that person and give them space to open up and say how they're feeling.
Speaker 2:Now, no one ever tells their leader the complete truth, especially not a brand new leader where you can tell there's a little bit of friction. But if they give you anything that is truthful, useful, something you can work on, the first words out of your mouth should be thank you very much for that feedback, or thank you very much for letting me know. Even if you completely disagree or you think that person's just making this up, they've been honest with you. That is the major step towards us being able to overcome this challenge, so you can come back the next day and say, look, I've thought about it. I'm not going to change what I'm doing, but I appreciate where you're coming from. Let me see how I can work with you. You don't have to take their feedback on board to change it, but you have to seem like you genuinely take it seriously. So thank you very much. I see where you're at. Let's see what compromises we can make, and in other areas this is just required. So let's work out how you can do it best or how it works best for you.
Speaker 2:But it's a process of what I call empathetic cynicism, which is, I'm empathetic to your situation. I'm also going to allow my cynicism to come out, but between the two of us we can find a real place. But I think sometimes leaders worry about being negative or cynical, so they just put an optimistic face on it. Everything's wonderful, everything will be great. If you just listen to me, if you are cynical, blind optimism is not going to win you over at all. You have to have something useful to go. I can buy into that. Still don't really see this part of them, but that piece I agree with them. Let's try and make that happen.
Speaker 1:That's a great pivot, great pivot. So anything else in addition to that initial step that can help leaders build that trust and support and even rapport with their employees.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely I get. Look in a modern world. I think what's interesting, holly, is the number of different situations we have with our teams nowadays. In my corporate days, I primarily did just sit three feet away from them, so there was a whole day of little interactive moments. Even if we annoyed each other at 10 o'clock, we'd probably have fun at three o'clock in the afternoon. But in a hybrid world or a completely remote world, that's very different. I think you have to be much more deliberate about the interactions that you have. So there is a science piece.
Speaker 2:If you've ever read the book the Trusted Advisor, holly, it is a wonderful, wonderful book by Meister, green and Galford and what they argue, the three big things we do that build trust are credibility, so being an expert of something, being able to give this person something useful to them and again, let's be really blunt, some people on this team that you've just come in as a leader or taken over or being promoted in, maybe wanted this job themselves. So there is that natural feeling of what exactly can this person do for me? I should have been in that role. So finding something that you can genuinely offer that helps them as a person. So credibility plus reliability, so doing what we say we're going to do, living up to our promises and a big one, I'm going to say, for leaders coming in, new leaders, whatever this relationship is but is being consistent. So the reliability here is I know who I'm dealing with. Each day I see the same leader. We've probably all had one of those leaders where the feeling was like, who's turning up today? Is it the happy boss, the angry boss, the confused boss, the boss who just barks orders at people? They've got to know who it is they're dealing with. Even if they don't love it, at least they understand it. So giving them that consistency of personality.
Speaker 2:And then the last thing is intimacy, and this doesn't mean sharing details we don't want to share, but it does mean showing that you are a human being. You're a real person too, with real challenges and a real life. So one of the interesting things, holly, I don't know if you know, but at the start of COVID, trust between colleagues went up substantially because for the first time ever, you got to see people's real lives. You saw their kitchens and their dogs and their kids and the stuff they collect, and all these people who had just been names on email or faces in an office were suddenly real people.
Speaker 2:Well, we can emulate that a little bit. As a leader, we can be a person, we can share a little bit of our lives with them, just enough that we feel comfortable with. But whatever, we're not that different. I can show you that we just have slightly different jobs at the moment, but our lives are very similar. So, whatever you feel comfortable sharing, but deliberately structuring those three, what can I share to help them with credibility? Can I give them a consistent personality so they know they can trust a response, and what can I share as a human being just moves those levers a little bit.
Speaker 1:Oh, those are great. Those are great. Now, what about for the leader who has continually invested into a team member, who has shown that resistance? Or maybe they've just not. They've not hit the mark right. They haven't seen the needed development or growth in an employee that they're supposed to reach for, whether it be their attitude, their lack of follow through on development or ownership, or just not being the right fit, as we talked about earlier, or even being a culture killer, because those come in right, they sneak in. It's like wow, where did you come from? How do you handle that? Like, what might those steps look like for that leader? Or even for a team member with another team member?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, absolutely. So. I think any new leader, or let's just call it a major change of team, for whatever the reason is, but if team members change, the team makeup change, there is actually going to be a cultural change. Some people would like it to just continue on the same as it was. That is perfectly natural. They're not bad people. But if I was successful in the old team, whatever that looked like, I would just like it to continue here. So that is actually one of the ironies of any change within an office. Change of leadership is actually it might be your star people that are most resistant to this change because it worked for them before. If I was just about to get fired and you change the team, what do I care? Change it up, you can still fire me, or maybe things will get better for me. So it's understanding that, yes, there is a natural resistance and we shouldn't just expect people to get over it within a matter of hours or days. That isn't going to happen. There is going to be a transition period here. So change curves, which comes from the science of Elizabeth Kubler-Ross but whether it's a good or bad change, there is an immediate spike or drop in well-being. Then we sort of level out for a little bit, but then there's a dip. As we go through the transition, even if I'm happy about this change, there's still going to be that time of difficulty amongst the team as we re-find our little ground. So I think for leaders it's reasonable and right that you give people time to adjust, and that isn't a couple of days. But as we go through, it's whether people come out the other side. Naturally there's a point at which we accept this difference. I've got to move on. I've got to find my new way into it. So, if you imagine, we have sort of results down the side of a graph, holly, and our motivation to change along the bottom. So, top right, I'm doing great at my job and I'm totally accepting this new change. Those are our change champions. Great, they'll just get on with it. We don't need to worry about them too much. Bottom right, we've got low results. So, for whatever reason, we're not performing at our job very well. But actually they are trying to work with this new culture, they're trying to work with new personalities, they're trying to get on with stuff. Those are the people we can train and develop and work with and invest our time in Bottom left is people who are underperforming and clearly just do not want to change or be part of this new world.
Speaker 2:There is a conversation, of course, to now have. Should this person continue to be part of this group? As somebody who was let go from the newspaper that I was at for 10 years for bigger financial reasons not my performance per se but I know how horrible it is to be on the other side of that, and I don't think any leader's role should be to try and find people who shouldn't be here anymore. But we all have a responsibility to perform well and we need to perform for the team. So there is a longer term chat about where to go with them.
Speaker 2:But actually the most challenging one is top left, as it were. High results, low motivation to change. High results, low motivation to change when somebody's doing very well but they are almost arguing against, potentially even saboteuring this change. That's a challenging situation because you don't have an easy business reason to say this person is underperforming, I don't want them here. So then it becomes about them not accepting the culture. But that is arguing. They're almost not accepting you as a leader. So that is the person where I think we need to use those tricks.
Speaker 2:I'm going to say in a nice way that we've been talking about being your own cynic, empathetic cynicism, but I'm going to argue.
Speaker 2:One of the things you really need to do with that person is lay your cards out on the line as to where you're at and what your reality is, and give them space to speak honestly to you.
Speaker 2:And as somebody who was a bit of a cynic in my employee days Holly, I'm willing to admit, especially growing up in Britain we're a little bit more passive, aggressive than here in America is I felt that if I disagreed with my boss, they would just hate me and we would have a fight and then I'd get fired. So I was very good at nodding along and smiling and saying, yes, I'll do that, and then leaving the room and having no intention of doing it. Looking back, I wish somebody had said to me I can see you disagree with this, howell, or I can see you have challenges with me. Please tell me what they are. You will not be in trouble, it's okay, but if you cannot come along on this change, you will not be here for very long and I don't want that to happen. So speak up. So actually it's that top left potential saboteur group that we need to be aware of, active on and considering that that's where our time needs to be spent to get the best long-term output.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I completely agree with you on the cards on the table. I'm one who constantly tells my leaders, when they are having to deal with a tough conversation with someone, that you're actually doing right by them that yes, it's a tough conversation, you don't want to hurt their feelings or hurt them or discourage them, but you're actually helping them by being honest with them, by letting them know where they stand and what the future is going to look like if it continues this way, but that you also want to be on their team. You want to see them learn and grow and and engage, but in a way that is is productive and healthy for the culture and for the overall team and therefore organization. But absolutely being able to have those, those honest conversations, is not always easy, but is very vital for sure.
Speaker 1:Now, along with that, we have a lot of change that takes place within leaders, whether it be leaders growing into different roles or even leaders leaving to go to different organizations, which can be a good thing too. I know some of those I've had the pleasure of mentoring, I've loved having on my team and I want to keep them, but I always want to invest and grow in them in a way that I want to see them excel and even fly by me right, and I want to be there to cheer them on and be in their corner. So it can be a good thing when people leave also. So any tips for leaders desiring to build their leadership bench?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely so. Of course, what's interesting about most people who move up into leadership is you were good at the job below it, as it were. Very few of us get moved up because we showed some skill in leadership. We simply weren't able to, so most of us are flying pretty blind when we set out. So what really are you trying to achieve as a leader? Obviously, you're trying to achieve great results for your group, whatever that may be. What does results mean for your team? Great, actually. What's the second biggest thing you're doing as a leader is the development of your people.
Speaker 2:I would say that, actually, if your people are sitting there, not growing and not developing, you are missing a major part of leadership. It's nice to have a stable team for a long time, but in a modern world, I just don't think that's a reality anymore. We don't look at work in the same way as we used to. Honestly, you're really lucky to keep somebody in exactly the same role for two to three years now. You're doing a great job at keeping them. So I do think it's always about looking at their growth, but I also think it's about working with them to understand that growth doesn't always mean promotion or the next step up the ladder. I know people who moved into leadership and realized it wasn't for them at all. They enjoyed doing the job. Maybe they wanted to make a bit more money doing it, or they wanted an opportunity to do different things but actually once they got there they realized they'd taken a missed turn. So what I would encourage leaders to do is start much earlier with people on the conversations about where do they think their life is going. Do they want promotion and change and growth? If so, what does that mean to them? But get them understanding the opportunities of where they can go, what growth can be. Even if you stay in the same role, you can feel much more fulfilled next year than this year.
Speaker 2:I'm not pushing this on everybody by any stretch, but I had a very personal choice that, as somebody who in my first two jobs had faked dentist appointments so I could go for interviews because I knew that they would be angry at me for looking for a new job, I was very keen with my team that that wasn't a feeling, that they didn't turn up one day with a resignation letter and just say I'm out of here, howell. So I made this very big thing of if you're unhappy, come and tell me. This is not a job for life. Most of them were fresh out of university. If I had them for two years, holly, I was doing very well and I was very proud of myself.
Speaker 2:My role was definitely to get them to be promoted internally, but me personally, I felt my role was just to help them to see opportunities in life and the world and where they can go. And to your point earlier on, yes, many of them went off to be much more successful and richer than I am and couldn't be prouder of them. I'm very proud of myself that I was a little piece of that. So people would say they were miserable and they would tell me they're unhappy. It's safe in the knowledge that I wouldn't take that personally.
Speaker 2:It's a job. We want to be paid well, we want to enjoy what we do, but each one is a stepping stone to somewhere. Maybe we stay for a long time, maybe it doesn't work, but I think what leaders can look at is seeing a major piece of your role as that progression, as building plans with people so that when it happens, it happens the way you want, not some surprise of I'm just not coming in on Monday. I'm done.
Speaker 2:And just to go back to the conversation we were just having, but in Britain, holly, it's much harder to get somebody out of your organization. We don't have at-will employment. It takes months and months and you have to have meetings. And so actually, as a very non-confrontational person, I was very bad at this, but because I was forced by HR to go through a process, I was forced to be more deliberate with underperformers, but with over-performers I did more naturally want to see them succeed. So I am not claiming in any way, holly, that I'm a perfect manager. We all have our strengths and weaknesses and we need to accept that. But I would push us all to see team development, team future and planning as a major part. So nothing is a surprise.
Speaker 1:That is, though, because I love the truly I'm not even sure engagement is the right word but care that you just expressed in showing the team, because I, too, have been there, where I left for a job promotion and something I really wanted to do in preparation for my future, and my former boss was not in no way a cheerleader, if anything, it was anti and con, and it was just like wait, what? Why aren't you happy for me? Why aren't you cheering me on? Why are, all of a sudden, you turned into my enemy, and I'll never forget leaving there, and it was sad for something that I felt should have been so exciting and a dream, so to speak.
Speaker 1:I felt very discouraged, and so I've tried to really make sure that, as a leader myself, that it is always. Yeah, it's not about every one is replaceable at a job, I feel, but they should be able to reach for their dreams, right, so we can find the next person to fill that slot, but that person who's currently filling that slot, we should be able to encourage them and cheer them on in whatever they want to do, and sometimes we are a stepping stone in the path of where they're going, and I want to be a part of that that they have good memories with. I want to be a part of that that helped them grow, both in tough times as well as in good times, but that helped them get to that next stepping stone too, and not something where, oh you're here, you need to stay here for 10 years or you're a horrible person. It's like, no, you know, while you're here, let me pour into you and then let me just cheer you on as you go on to what really fills you.
Speaker 2:And people will work harder and stay longer if they're building that future with you rather than having to plan a future behind your back. So, again, lovely, if we can keep wonderful people, that'd be great. If we can promote those wonderful people, let's do that. But if somebody is not going to be here in five years, let's get the best out of them now.
Speaker 2:And on a purely personal level, holly, I think it's really sad when we don't remember a workplace positively, one where we were for a long time, invested a lot of our life in eight to 10 hours a day, more than we see our children to remember it negatively is sad for everybody. Let's get a great job out of them, let's all work as hard as we can, but we should remember these moments in life with a positive spin and joy for the people we worked with and who worked for us. And so, again, I do not claim I hit this 100%, holly, but it's lovely that I have many people who used to work for me still on Facebook, who send me little updates of what they're doing and where they are and watching these massive job titles come through, and I feel a little bit proud that I had a small piece of that. They did that on their own, but I was a little part of that growth in their early years and that brings great joy to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, I so agree, and none of us are going to hit the mark right, but we're all growing in the process and even some of those tough leaders. We can learn what we do or don't want to do in our own leadership and even our own failures. Hopefully we can feel forward and learn from them and do it differently the next time. So you mentioned a couple of things One, how much COVID has impacted even our continuation of how we do employment, how that looks, what that looks like, and then also even connections of how you can still stay in contact with people on Facebook and social media and so forth. So, with that, so many are still working virtually right. That just found to be a good business setup for many organizations as well, as, when people leave, you can stay in contact with them social media wise. How can you continue to build and maintain that strong relationship with employees who are still working remotely?
Speaker 2:Well, a big one I'll throw in is in a remote world. What you don't want to do is create the worst of what office life was, which was when your leader or boss sat 20 yards away but stayed in their little office or ignored you completely until there was a problem. So them just walking towards you, your heart would sink Like, oh my God, something awful has happened. What is it going to be In a virtual world that's recreated, unfortunately, when we only contact somebody when there's an issue? So I would heartily recommend to all leaders to be much more deliberate about regular Zoom calls, phone calls. Whatever we do at Teams, however, we get in touch with people, but at different moments for different reasons. So the phone ringing or a Zoom call appearing on my calendar doesn't fill me with dread as an employee that clearly I'm about to get screamed at or even just nicely told I've done something wrong. There should be a mix of how we discourse and chat with them. So a big one I'd push is make random calls. So when you have a few minutes, just call one of your team members and they'll probably pick up. They work for you. They're probably not going to avoid your call If they're really busy and can't do it, so be it. Make that very clear that it's not required. If they red button the call, no issue. But if they pick up, just have a chat. So back to what we were talking about later on, those little moments of intimacy. I'm not calling because there's a problem. I'm not calling because we have to get this thing done in five minutes. I'm just calling to see what's going on today and what you're doing and what you're doing this evening and are you having a good time? And can I be of use while I'm here? I've got 15 minutes. Have you got any questions for me? We can just have a little chat and then tomorrow I might call because there's a problem, but you won't just dread it in that terrible way. And again, certainly not claiming I nailed all of this, but for the last 10 years now I had a remote team and we had one of the closest relationships just on this idea that, using Skype back in the day we had a group chat and you would just call it and if anyone was available they'd pick up, and it was actually the best bit of office life, which is I've got somebody to chat to but, unlike an office, I don't have to talk to them, I can not pick up or I just can do something else in an office. They know you're not doing anything, they can see it, but here it was. Just it brought these little moments of joy to what is otherwise hard Working remotely by yourself.
Speaker 2:Whatever our job is has its challenges. So make the positive out of it. So make those little random calls as and when. But also in those call moments, don't just make it about the problem. If we do have to talk about a problem, I try and make every call have something good that's going on that we can discuss and a challenge. As much as possible. Try and balance out each interaction, because if we put the phone down or hang up on a Zoom call from just a big problem, that puts us on a negative now for the next few hours or days even. So, again, if we are speaking, let's try and balance it out. Some good has happened. Don't worry. There is also a challenge. We'll need to get to that. But I should come off thinking a good, useful chat with my boss, not. Oh my God, the world is falling and I've got to deal with it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, I like that, I like that, I like that a lot.
Speaker 1:Now, along with the change of remote work or even flexibility right, so many are working different, flexible work schedules. There's also other changes of increasing people having side gigs right, people doing some things that are different than what they're doing a job as, or starting new businesses on their own, on the side or a hobby that they enjoy that they're getting a little bit more passionate about. That is taking more of an interest in An intense focus on diversity and equality, and inclusion has really been a focus within the workforce. Even challenges of change, of having a new boss, as we've talked about earlier, greater or more competition, so many more people, so many more businesses starting up right and popping up everywhere, and even the impact of artificial intelligence I mean, that's a part of everyone's job, it seems and fears that can stir up on will I still have my job or what does this look like? So, whether it be good or bad change, what are some of the emotional ups and downs that we might experience and how can we kind of navigate those as a leader or an employee?
Speaker 2:Well, let's dive and change a little bit here, because you're right, we live in a world now where change is just inevitable. As an interesting number in 1960, holly, the average lifespan of a Fortune 500 company was expected to be about 60 years. So that's how long you expected to stay a big company. What do you think is the average lifespan of a Fortune 500 company today, holly? What do you think?
Speaker 1:I don't even know what to guess. If it was 60 years, I'd say it's definitely dropped. So 30, 40?
Speaker 2:Yeah, even more than that. 18 years now is the average lifespan of our biggest companies. So some of that is mergers, but a lot of that is just companies coming and going. The BlackBerry movie if you haven't seen it, is just fascinating. It still exists as a name, but that rise and fall of a brand in like an eight or nine year period was just incredible. And we're all part of that world now.
Speaker 2:So we're all facing change all the time. So what's going on? Is that actually, even if we say we're good at change, status quo bias is a powerful force in all of us. We want basically each day to be much the same. We couldn't live life if everything was different every single day. It would just be impossible.
Speaker 2:If you've had a day, holly, or anyone listening has had one of those days where everything was hard, everything was challenging, by like seven o'clock you're done, you've got nothing left, you're snapping at people. Those are the days where it's just a struggle. So that's why we try and keep patterns. What's the status quo? How much can I keep the same? So when something new comes in, small or big, there are natural forces within us saying I'd rather just stay where I am. So preference. Stability says once I've chosen something, I'll just stick with it. So if you've done training, holly, and people come in, once they sit in a chair, it's their chair, that's it. If you ask them to move, they're genuinely angry that they're going to a different chair. Even the chair next door, it doesn't matter. I've made this choice, let me just stay where I am.
Speaker 2:The other big one is anticipated regret and blame. Ie. What I'm worried about is my life getting worse. Whatever the change is even a good change. I'm comfortable here. I don't want to think about the alternatives. So in studies, what they've shown is that people are more comfortable with unhappiness than we are with uncertainty. So literally, we'd rather stay in a miserable position than change. I'm using miserable in an extreme sense, but actually, if we all think back on jobs we were in at some point, we look back now and go, oh, I stayed too long, it wasn't a good idea, it wasn't working. Why did I stay? Because at least we know it. We may not love it, but we know it, and change is hard.
Speaker 2:So for all of us, employees and bosses, it's realizing that a big change at work is not the only thing going on in that person's life. There are hundreds of these little changes going on, each one affecting the other. So big things at home will affect you at work, big things at work will affect you at home, and sometimes the smallest little change throws you over the edge. I remember coming into work once and my boss had moved my desk about 12 inches, like not far, kind of twisting it, and I just flipped out and spent the whole day stomping about and complaining and I don't know why it annoyed me so much, but I think it was just a culmination of many, many things. So again, giving employees space to speak, definitely, but also just realizing that how you emotionally react to a change is not the same as them. They may be more overawed by it, find it much more challenging for a reason you don't understand. But, like you say, they might be working two or three jobs or they might have a side thing that they're going on, all of which is playing on their emotional draining every day.
Speaker 2:And AI, let's face it, is a worry in many people's minds. Now, what will it mean? How much is it going to change the work we're doing, especially if it already is affecting the work we're doing? So, as people have these little moments again. The biggest thing I challenge with people is don't expect people to react the way you do. What is? The empathetic view of their situation may be different to mine. They're not right or wrong or better or worse than me. They're just reacting differently. How can I understand where they're coming from? Try and get the best I need for my job, whilst understanding that this human also has other things happening in their life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, that's so true. I teach a women's Sunday school class on Sundays and I, as part of the lesson one Sunday, I had them all change seats.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:It was.
Speaker 1:It was just part of the lesson, but I still hear about that yeah you remember that Sunday that you had the ladies switch seats and it's like, oh my goodness, I didn't realize how life shattering that would be. But it was a great opportunity for me also to kind of put myself in their shoes and go, oh, wow, yeah, like I can see how just that one change impacted. Because I know when things change for me, I am not one to go woohoo, I'm so excited to change. I go silent and it's just, I'm not mad, I'm not frustrated, I'm not on board, but I just need to process the change and tomorrow I'll probably be fine, or maybe a week from now I'll be fine.
Speaker 1:Right now we're going through a situation where someone recently did a change and I can tell you it's been about three or four weeks and I'm still not there. But I also know that we all just process the change differently. So that's so important to remember, to put ourselves in other people's shoes. But then also, everyone has a story we know nothing about, right, and that change might have been one more change in their life. So how can leaders help their teams process and adapt and even embrace change, whether it be from day to day, to procedures and policies, to even transitions and responsibilities and roles?
Speaker 2:So there's two big reasons here. Number one is helping people understand how change works. It is amazing how little we really understand about what happens as we go through a change. I was taught the change curves that I mentioned earlier when I became a leader, and all I remember thinking is this is not leadership advice, this is just human advice. Why have I never seen this? And it's, honestly, the single piece of science I have shown more and helped more people with over the years, which is, as they are going through the tough times of change again, even a positive change having a baby, getting married, starting a new job. As you're on that emotional dip, what you're thinking, of course, is why aren't I enjoying this? Why is everyone telling me I'm supposed to be loving this and I'm hating every minute of it? Or I'm worried about the results Having children children especially because you've been told since you were born that this was the most joyous thing that was going to happen to you, and it's incredibly hard dealing with your first baby and yours is crying, and all the babies on Facebook don't seem to be crying. And so just helping somebody understand, don't worry, this is what everybody has gone through. So if you just type change curves. Into Google it'll give you a great little picture of it, but there's natural ups and downs.
Speaker 2:I'll give you a quick story. A friend of mine back at home in the UK but her mom was actually the first ever winner of the Euro millions lottery, which is kind of our Powerball that covers Europe. It's not quite Powerball money, but it was £45 million. She won on a Friday night very normal family in Newcastle where I grew up by Sunday morning she was sitting on her living room floor crying her eyes out, screaming I don't want it, I don't want it, just take it away. And honestly, she never really came out perfectly at the end of it. You know that's a hell of a transition to go through when you're, you know, past 18, as it were. And so again, this thing we all think well, if we won the lottery, all our problems would be solved, life would just be amazing. It just creates a whole new set of problems and takes you on a bizarre emotional journey that you couldn't possibly understand.
Speaker 2:So number one is helping them to understand that you're not doing anything wrong and you're not a bad person because you're struggling with this change, even if this change was supposed to be a positive thing. So literally walk them through the change curves, but be a sounding board for them. Where are you at the moment? Where's your head at?
Speaker 2:The second big thing we can do, holly, is give them control of it in some way. It's the difference. You sort of alluded to it earlier. You know this changes the person is doing. It's like this isn't my changes, change is being done to me, or this being changes to being done around me, me, and I'm just being forced to go along with it.
Speaker 2:That's why we naturally will push back. I didn't want this. This wasn't my choice, so I'm not going to do what I should do. We have to have some feeling that it's for me, about me, or by me, to go. Okay, then I will come into this. Now, maybe it's not as much control as I would like, maybe it's not going to happen exactly the way I want it to, but the moment a change is announced, what you want to be saying to people is how would you like this to happen and what do you want to do to make this work for you? These things have to happen. That isn't going to change Companies, changing this division. That's the news. But beyond that, how much can I give you the chance to make choices? Take control and make your own changes. Then even cynical people have to at least do something to make it work for them, hopefully bringing them through. But, as we talked about earlier, it's not going to work 100% of the time, but you're giving them the best tools you can.
Speaker 1:And that's often what we're doing as leaders right, we're trying to put the tools in their toolbox, but they decide what they use, when they use it, if they're even going to use it. So we can only do the best that we can do. Also, Now, you've worked with a lot of top worldwide and even high-end companies Starbucks, New York Live, Coca-Cola, Tiffany Company.
Speaker 2:What are some top leadership tips that you've seen? Stick out from such brands. I'm not going to put it on the brands actually I'm not being negative about any of the brands I've worked for but I'm going to say that it doesn't matter what your company is. You could be a one-person outfit or Starbucks is hundreds of thousands of people. It still comes down to a leader trying to make their best choices. So we'll all like to think that a big company, big brand, has nailed some magical way of fixing this, but it's really not true at all. But I think each leader will find their best route.
Speaker 2:I was lucky. So it was a newspaper. I worked for the Financial Times newspaper. They'd been around for 140 years, so they had a stable knowledge of how this worked, what they were doing, and the leadership group that I came into was fantastic. So I have almost universally positive stories about those years and I did learn lots of positive things to recreate when I got there. As you said earlier on, I also learned some of the things I definitely wasn't going to do from leaders I'd met before then. And then you make your own mistakes.
Speaker 2:But I think the best we can say no matter what the brand is, but what company are you giving your leaders the chance to be the best version of themselves? There are certain things we need to do as leaders, of course, certain tick box things that need to do and certain expectations we have, but there's no such thing as a perfect leader. Steve Jobs was an incredible leader, but by most accounts, he was a horrible person most of the time. So he was doing something incredibly well, but other things. You would point at him and say, well, I wouldn't work for that person. That's not the leader that would work for me. All we can do is be the best version of ourselves.
Speaker 2:So when I do see an organization that's working, that's really in flow and getting the best, when you meet the leaders, what you can see is that they are very individual. They are bringing each of themselves to the room, to their team, without being forced to be a certain type or expected to manage in a certain way. But it does not have to be a big brand for that. If you are a small company and you're taking on your first real leader other than you, it's still the same idea. Don't expect them to be you. Allow them to be the leader they need to be, whilst giving them all the advice and ideas you can but shaping. Of the thousand things we have to do as a leader, what's the hundred I'm going to be amazing at? Let me focus on them. Get better at as many of the others that I can without forcing myself to be something that's never going to be my strength.
Speaker 1:Well said, well said. Now here on Holly's Highlights podcast, we have a signature question that if you could go back and encourage, inspire or even equip yourself as a child, what would you tell your young self?
Speaker 2:I would tell myself something that I have now learned. But because I moved to America, I'm going to give you all complete credit for this, everybody. So I absolutely love living in America. I came here in 2008. I was 32, just upped my life and moved over with the newspaper that I was with.
Speaker 2:What I instantly noticed because it's almost impossible not to notice when you move from Britain here is how much more direct people are with you. So in Britain there's a lot of dancing around before you tell somebody that they've done something wrong, or there's a lot of niceness when you're really saying you know, those shoes are terrible and you shouldn't be wearing them. Like there's a lot of lovely shoes. And I got here and people would just say to me no, that's not right, howell, that's not what I wanted. And I'd be like what, where's the dancing about? Where's the politeness? Like, oh my God.
Speaker 2:But then I met an American woman who is the most wonderful woman in the world and I adore her to bits, and she taught me that it was okay to disagree without it being a fight or without it meaning that we didn't like each other. And so, again, I'm certainly not claiming we have a perfect marriage, but we have a wonderful marriage because we now disagree and then discuss it. But at work it was a revelation to me that it's okay to say I don't like that, or I disagree with this, or I'd like to do it differently, and if you do it respectfully and courteously and professionally, you will get that as a response 99% of the time and the 1% we can't do anything about. So there's no point planning for it. But everybody else actually does want to know what you think.
Speaker 2:So, as I say, I would hide behind smiles and say, yes, that's wonderful, I'll do that and leave the room and just not do it. And looking back now, how much further I could have got or problems we could have fixed If I just said I've got a different idea. Here's what I want to try. But it was true of my friendships, life, everything until I got to America, holly. So congratulations to you all. You've made me better.
Speaker 1:That's great. That's great. I actually like that because you know, whenever people ask, like, if you were a superhero, what superhero would you be? Or you know what talent would you have, or whatever and I'm always like I just want to be like a fly on the wall because I want to hear the truth. I want to hear what people are saying not in front of you, right, because I'm very much just shoot it to me straight and I want to know what people are thinking and feeling and I want them to be honest with me and I want to be open and receptive to that too. I really appreciate those hard conversations and I appreciate and value really appreciate those hard conversations and I appreciate and value the courage to be able to have them.
Speaker 2:So I love that. I love that you shared that, and what I say a lot with feedback now is if you ask those people what's the best piece of feedback you ever received, it's something they didn't like hearing at the time, but it helped you tremendously. No, it probably wasn't fun, but we don't get better. It's nice to be told you're wonderful, but what really helps you is somebody telling you the honest, godless truth that you knew was hard for them. That's what's going to give you the most value.
Speaker 1:So true, so true. Our leaders often will ask each other what do I need to hear that I don't want to hear? And it's giving that permission to share it. But, yeah, we definitely need to be ready for it too, because it's important. So, yep, well, great Hal, thank you so much for joining us today. How can our listeners connect further with you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, wonderful. So I'm the only Howell Berry in the entire world. So if you get my spelling from the show notes folks, I'm very easy to find online. But at howellberrycom is my speaker page. But my company is Alicorn Learning. So alicornlearningcom, where we work with brands, as you say, all over the world, all types of companies, from literal startups of two people to massive brands, but anything that can just help you as a team, as a leader, any challenges you're facing, we will do everything we can to support you and move you forward. So love to hear from people.
Speaker 1:Wonderful. Thank you again, Hal. We appreciate you investing your time and your talent with us today. Truly, it was a pleasure having you.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much indeed.
Speaker 1:Thank you for joining me on this journey of life. I hope that today's highlight has been encouraging, inspiring and equipping so you can go out and live your life full of purpose. I'd be honored if you'd take a moment to leave a review or, better yet, subscribe. We can also stay in touch by joining my email list at hollykirbycom. That's H-O-L-L-Y-C-U-R-B-Ycom. Until next time, make it a great day for a great day.